The Blame Game – Part 3

Today’s post concludes the current series on blaming as a manipulation and responsibility-avoidance tactic (for more on this and other tactics see the relevant chapters of In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance as well as the series on manipulation tactics beginning with: Lying – Manipulation Tactic 1). And as the lead article in the series asserts (see: Externalizing Blame Can Have Deadly Consequences), externalizing blame to an extreme can have deadly consequences.  Disturbed and disordered characters use blame as a tactic to manipulate those whom they know to be conscientious enough to accept all or part of the responsibility for something that’s really not their fault at all. And some manipulators (especially those more narcissitic types) are so good at the subtle use of the tactic that it takes a bit of doing to see how they use it to demean others and aggrandize themselves. The vignette that follows is intended to help illustrate the point (as always, any potentially identifying information has been altered in a minor way to ensure anonymity).

Mildred knew she wasn’t perfect. After all, nobody is. At least, that’s what she always been taught. But she wasn’t so sure Fred felt that way. He just always seemed to be right. At least, he always seemed like he had to be right. Sometimes it would be over the littlest of things, like whether or not he’d actually used a particular word during an argument or whether his way of doing a chore wasn’t a bit more effecient than the way others preferred to do the same thing. Over time, she’d come to learn 2 things about Fred: you could never question him about anything without ending up somehow questioning yourself; and, whenever it came to your way or his way, somehow he always seemed to win. And when things went wrong, it was never because he’d made a mistake in judgment. It was always someone else’s fault. He was always correct, others were always wrong. It was as simple as that. Sometimes, his assertions of perfection were subtle. He wouldn’t say someone was flat-out wrong but rather “mistaken.”  Or he wouldn’t come right out and insist he knew better and you’d think for a time he was actually trying to be “understanding” when all of a sudden you’d begin feeling like everyone else in the world was an idiot and he was the only rational one.

One day, things came to a head. Fred had been asked to leave a meeting with their son’s teacher because he’d become, according to the teacher, “too inappropriate and beligerant.” Mildred could have easily surmised what his explanation would be. But it bothered her to hear him complain that a teacher she had great respect for not only was responsible for driving him to the brink but also had “completely blown out of proportion” his reaction to her ” incessant insults.” For Mildred, this was the last straw. She knew this teacher well. And she knew Fred had a temper and sometimes a pretty short fuse. And she firmly believed that deep down Fred knew that, too. So why couldn’t he just admit he’d had a lapse of judgment and let things get out of hand? He wasn’t an abusive person generally. So why wouldn’t he just accept responsibility for a mistake and perhaps do something about it?

Now psychology has gone through various phases when it comes to explaining the phenomenon referenced above. At one time, the predominant thinking about folks with narcissistic traits and who could never admit shortcomings was that their egos and self-concept were far too fragile for them to acknowledge “vulnerability,” so they “compensated” for their insecurity by presenting a facade of greatness. But recently, the evidence has been mounting that there’s another kind of narcissism – the kind I noticed early in my work with disturbed characters and first wrote about in my book In Sheep’s Clothing and later in Character Disturbance and The Judas Syndrome – that’s not rooted in fragility or insecurity but rather in genuine grandiosity (for more on this see the article: Two Types of Narcissism and How to Tell the Difference). These individuals are somewhat deluded in their own sense of greatness and feel entitled to lash out against and hold to account everyone else except themselves. The more she thought about things, and especially about their history together, Mildred was coming to the conclusion that Fred was more the latter type and she would have to stop trying to be so understanding and put her foot down. After all, how would Fred ever get on top of these problems of always having to be right and sometimes going off on someone he felt deserved it if he refused to even admit that he had the problems? So rather than argue with him or listen to any more of his “explanations” that just ended up sounding more like blaming, she simply insisted he get some counseling. That’s the day life and Mildred’s relationship with Fred began to change.

Character Matters at 7 pm EDT this Sunday will again be a live program, so I can take your calls. You’ll want to tune inasmuch as among other things we’ll be talking about narcissists of the grandiose type and what it’s like to live, work, and otherwise deal with them.  And next week we’ll be beginning a brand new series devoted to some of the issues the commentators have asked be addressed.

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57 thoughts on “The Blame Game – Part 3

  1. I had a malignant narcissist roommate like this once she blamed everyone else for everything. She was having problem with her car one time and I recommended a mechanic and it turned out that things went wrong. She tried to make it my fault because I recommend the mechanic. Hahahaha

    1. Carrie,
      I once gave a woman I knew a phone number for a realtor who then got her in touch with a realty attorney. She needed legal help as she was in over her head with a condo she moved out of and the association rented out because she was in arrears.
      She claimed she should’ve rec’d a lot of money at the sale of her condo. I knew none of her life at all up to this point. Just happened to “be at the right place at the right time”!!!
      The attorney assessed what was going on by talking to her HOA board. It was determined then that she would actually owe on her condo as she had almost nothing invested and was racking up delinquent fees and taxes.
      She went to others in our group and all of a sudden everyone had daggers out for me. When one honest person in the group told me what was going on and I explained what transpired between us only that lady was on my side!!!
      Thankfully, I had the where with all to leave the group for the sake of my sanity!!!

  2. DC’s will go to the greatest lengths to avoid taking responsibility for their actions to the point that it’s just mind boggling. I recently ended my year long relationship with one and the process of breaking up was exhausting. Whenever I took two steps forward, he pulled me two steps back. I made it clear to him that I wanted to end things between us but stay on good terms, but no, he wasn’t having it.

    I’ve found that playing neutral and backing out slowly worked for me up until recently. It was the third time in a month that I tried breaking up with him, so he retaliated…BIG time.

    He set me up one day that drove me into such intense anger that I’ve never felt in my entire life. He made it clear that he was cheating on me by sending me a picture of himself with the other person! I couldn’t sleep, eat, think straight and my anxiety was through the roof.

    The worst part about the situation is that he flipped the situation on me and told me he did it because “he was mad that I wanted to end our relationship”. I thought to myself “holy shit”he’s really lost it.

    I’ve also come to the conclusion that his own mother is a narcissist herself. She displays some of the most selfish and immature behavior I’ve ever seen in a woman her age, and the crazy part is she enables her son’s behavior. Things have gotten physical in the past between him and I and his mother’s response to the situation: “you provoked him”. I was floored.

    On the plus side, I feel like he’s starting to crack and it’s fun to watch karma do its thing. He’s now realizing that I want nothing to do with him so it’s a big blow to his ego. Oh well, go cry to your narc mommy

    1. I am sorry things took such a bad turn. That’s the reason why “no contact” is best. I agree that his mom is probably a narc. Probably a malignant narc which is a very sadistic covert aggressor. Malignant narc mothers do a really good job raising psycho sons. You might be able to find several comfort in knowing that the girl that he is cheating with is going to become his ‘fix’ and he will leave you alone.

      1. I want to reiterate what Carrie said, No Contact is the only way to go. It’s as if you have a bruise – staying in contact with the narc would be like hitting yourself where the bruise is. It’ll never heal that way. You have to avoid hitting it, bumping against it, etc. – you go “no contact” with your bruise. Healing yourself – your inner self, is what your focus needs to be and the narc will absolutely not help you do that.

        1. Very well said. My greatest healing came when I moved to a different state. It’s really quite the experience after coming back to the same manipulation and vindictiveness. I’m healed now so it is quite a riot. I can see how things were so traumatic for a young child. If there is anyway for you to get far away then you should. It is soooo much easier to work on yourself when you’re not dodging bullets.

        2. Thank you guys for the advice! Two months prior to our break up, I had already planned my exit strategy in my mind but never told anyone. I moved all of my stuff out of his house (without him knowing), and stopped being intimate with him way before that. I feel as though going no contact was a process for me rather than a split decision.

          To be honest, going slowly into no contact had been absolutely freeing for me. I feel much stronger and more in control than I did 3 months ago. Yes, there will be be bumps in the road (I hit a big one) but to be able to feel free and happy again is 100 percent worth the effort

    2. Amanda,
      You are a hero to yourself for getting out! I had a brief encounter with a narc like that. Every time I tried to break it off which was often even at the beginning he would cry??? It was absurd as it started like I said right at the beginning of knowing him. In my case I soon realized I would no longer announce I wanted to end the relationship. I simply did not take his calls and then of course this guy would “show up” without being invited. It took 9 mos. to finally get completely rid of him. I threatened him with police action.
      Even after that for the next 2 years I’m pretty sure this narc was tapping on my bedroom window to try and scare me. It worked, but thankfully then I was able to move and he never knew where or he moved on.

  3. Isn’t it amazing that we have all struggled to make our relationship work. I just didn’t know what was going on. Once a psychologist gave me a hint about nh (20 years married), but he didn’t use any term to describe it so I thought it was situational and wasn’t very serious. Finally my minister said “character disorder”(45 years married). That opened up a whole new world for me. I started researching and here I am today, 9 years later, still trying to learn.

    1. Noel,  I forgot to mention that I went to my pastor to talk about the parasites and he just thought that he could damage me further. Well, by that time I was healed but just looking for input since 2 Timothy 3 addresses these characters. Instead he told me that I should not judge these people. I was very sad to see that a man with such power was actually one of the parasites that the bible had spoken of.I find it super hard to trust people but I am glad your pastor helped and didn’t try to deepen the hurt.

      1. It just happened that the minister arrived at our church 4 months prior to the break up. Low and behold he was someone we knew from a small town a hundred miles away that we all lived in when we were children. I had listened to his sermons for those 4 months and knew that I could trust him. I felt it was the first time during marital problems that I had someone that I could call on for help. It meant the world to me. I feel he was put there for a purpose.

        1. Yes, it does sound like it. I truly believe that this is a game os angels vs. demons. The end times are unfolding right before our eyes. I have never had a whole lot of luck with pastors. One tried to molest.me when I was young and this one tried to convince me that I was crazy. There was also a few other incidents in between

      2. he was correct not to judge them. but obviously he didn’t understand what the next step is.
        the next step is to pray to god for forgiveness because you cannot forgive. it is a powerful prayer and you will feel balanced after that. at least i did. and the person who has harmed you will get some outside help, too.
        my ex got it in the form of a dream.
        he told me he dreamed he was working across the street from a church and the church had something “bad” in it. a demon. he had to go in…very scared, and attempt to exorcise the demon. and then he woke up.
        his interpretation was he was the big hero going into the church to fight this satanic influence.
        that was 2 days before i nailed him on how he set me up for psychological disaster. and, then i found dr. simon’s yt videos.
        everything started falling in place once i made that prayer…and now i am on my way out this hell.
        btw…in dream symbology a church= the values you hold most dear and sacred.
        it’s over. it’s finally over.

  4. Dr. Simon – I was thrilled to read your article ‘Two Types Of Narcissism And How To Tell The Difference.’

    I have finally found my boyfriend of 17 years who I broke up with a year and a half ago.

    I have been surrounded by Malignant Narcissists all of my life. I am 58. I only figured this out 2 years ago. My therapist tells me she has never met anyone surrounded by so many. I am dealing with 4 living generations. Father, brother and sister, son and grandson. And let’s not leave out my sister’s best friend who I invited to live with me for 7 months this past year.

    So my boyfriend was a delight. He had all of the traits I was familiar with, but he lacked the cruelty piece. He was familiar is the only way to describe it. He was selfish, self involved, desperately wanted and needed my admiration, and everyone else’s too. But he wasn’t cruel like the malignant ones. So I was okay with it for a very long time. Many years.

    Finally as I started ending each familial relationship, he ended up on the same pile of rejection. But I felt bad. He wasn’t mean. He just could not tell me the truth to save his life. And he needed to be right and he needed constant praise and admiration.

    But your article shed light on why he was “okay” with me for 17 years. Until I woke up. Now I am not okay with either type, Character Disturbed or Neurotic Narcissist.
    I have just changed too much myself to accept either one in my life.

    But thank you, as I have been wrestling with this for a year and a half. My boyfriend SEEMED to be a narcissist, but he was not cruel. Cruelty is the hallmark of my familial Narcissists, and ultimately caused me to cut all of them off. But the boyfriend went out with the bathwater too, as I just can’t do it anymore. But I felt guilty about him as he was different. Your article makes it crystal clear. Yes he was a Narcissist too, but not the malignant type.

    I really needed that understanding to move on and to forgive myself for giving up on him. Thank you.

    1. Luci, we have a lot in common in the narc department! My family is filled with malignant narcs and I married a psycho. The first time I was married to a narc but he was not violent. I was married to him for 13 years. Yes, he showed me so many of the qualities I had grown up with so it was all part of the comfort cycle. He definitely loved himself and loved the ladies also. After I got rid of him I hooked up with my psycho. Ouch!! That parasite did so many things to me and the kids in a short amount of time. It was such a cycle!! It seems that everyone I meet is a DC of some sort. A lot of people are just very greedy. My malignant mommy narc likes to tell people that I have mental issues and that is why I really don’t care for many people. Lol….
      I also have at least 4 generations of malignant narcs. Many books explain that the brain of a narc is actually formed differently and that is why it runs in families. On YouTube there is a video entitled Familial Sabotage and that was also me. I was the skapegoat child. Oh my goodness…
      I am not a psychologist but there seems to be a lot of mental issues such as BPD, OCD, and maybe others mixed in with the malignant narcissism. It is really a scary thing to think about so I try not to focus on this demented circus.
      I am very happy to hear that the weight of this dysfunction was lifted off your shoulders. I can remember that I spent hours on the computer trying to figure out why my ex psycho was so “out of the ordinary.” I never came across the word narcissist in my research. I had a friend that brought up the word for me for me to look into. I will never forget the day when I read a book on it. I wanted to shout it from the rooftops.
      I wanted to congratulate you on your new found freedom. Too bad it takes most of us forever to figure this stuff out!!  Remember that you are a beautiful person and that is why they are after you. Keep up the quest for knowledge. Knowledge equals healing.

  5. Many books explain that the brain of a narc is actually formed differently and that is why it runs in families. I cut and paste this from your post Carrie.

    In my own family their is now me gone no contact as you know my uncle also did so,
    BUT ! My grand mother had a sister AND One of her sons whent no contact also.
    The problem that my brother and I have been subjected to is that they just get more cunning, conniving and covert in their tactics. In other words ” THEY BECOME MORE EFFICIENT IN THE ART OF CONTROL AND ABUSE. END OF ?
    The point of NO CONTACT IS as far as I am concerned is that they can no longer be CRUEL TO YOU in order to maintain their power over you. I learned that from Dr Simon and from an article in a newspaper. Thank You

  6. Joey, I do agree that they become more manipulative and vindictive as the generations go. They all tech each other and then the ones being taught have the additional tricks of their own. It’s very funny to watch them turn on each other too. I’m sure the original narcs are nothing in comparison to the ones closer to my generation. I can see how the most evil, vindictive one from my generation uses the one from the previous generation. (To be able to see that makes me laugh and smile) I can see how the predators will use anyone and no one is exempt. I even see how they suck the life out of the nieces and nephews. The CD’S even manipulated my daughter so much that I could see the confusion and hate in her eyes. The predators love to divide and conquer. The malignant narcs have no problem doing whatever they need to and they like to keep everything in uproar so it gives them some kind of justification in their pathetic, mundane existanse.

    1. Carrie, I’m sure you could write a book about your experiences. Truth is indeed stranger (and often much worse) than fiction. Is your daughter still under the influence of the predators? I sincerely hope not.

      1. Unfortunately, my daughter is no longer with us. I could write a book but for now I will get healing from writing things like this.

    2. Carrie, usually when some dishonest person’s tried to “team up” with me, I’ve suspected they try to benefit at my expense first and foremost and screw me over if it serves them for a bit.

      I even read on one site linked here(bullyonline) that bullies like to use others as middlemen, agents of harassment and scapegoats. Keeping their hands clean, even though they are willing to dirty them at other times? Wash hands when it’s easy, know in advance when it’s not?

      And reading your comment it seems like some folks corrupt/(brainwash?) others, because it “legitimizes” their own c**p.

      And if someone sells someone else on the idea to do something shady or downright wrong, the result’s the same in any case, sure, but does it reflect slightly differently on someone persuaded to do whatever it is by how much they did it in naive gullibility or thoughtlessness vs awareness? indifference? vague hope to get something, emotional brains honestly getting them to believe they were doing right(fear-based enabling?) vs calculation, lack of awareness what they’re really doing(indoctrination? persuasion? mind control?) vs knowing what a belief really implies? What about a persuader?

      Does this go back to that neurosis-CD-continuum?

      I saw two discussions on these kinds of things(or was it one long chain discussion?), but I can’t manage to find it anywhere. It was interesting, though, and really related to some things I’ve been wondering at times.

      1. Interesting thoughts Timothy! I know some malignant narcs that do this very well. One in particular has been able use another as her puppet my whole life. The one being used has just enough meanest inside that this kind of behavior does not really strike a bit on conscience with him. The predator has easily been able to convince the puppet to mentally abuse his children and grandchildren because she doesn’t get does not get the results she wants. The puppet carries greater authority and has a worse temper so the predator uses it for her convenience.
        I also had a malignant narc for a roommate and she spoke bad about everyone. She was especially spoke very negative when it came to her daughter. This is not unusual since the narc mother is almost always jealous of her daughter. I always just shook my head and never really disagreed with her. She even tried to tell me all kinds of negative things about me kids. She thought I was soaking up all of her nonsense because I never disagreed. I was just listening carefully to what she was saying.
        Both of these malignant narcs know just how to phrase things and use the proper amount of drama to control their victims. There are other factors also. I know that predator #1 uses physical manipulation also. She likes to leave the lights turned off, cook with inferior and outdated things, and even convinces her victims that using outdated medicine is not bad. Narc #2 loved to try and use fear.
        A big point that is important when dealing with these dark individuals is to be able to listen with an open mind. Victim #1 has a very large ego and will not listen to anything that doesn’t fit into his mold of reality. This actually leaves him wide open to excessive manipulation. Narc #2 had many victims who did not want to suffer her wrath and went along willingly.
        I can easily see how a young innocent mind can be coerced into suicide. These people know exactly what they are doing and usually begin their manipulation process on day one.

      2. Timothy,
        That’s exactly what the CD’s and Narcs in my life do. They try to warm you up to the idea of being friendly, or as Dr. Simon says flatter you and make you feel special. Then they try to use you or set you up to be the one who takes all the work, trouble, heat , etc…..
        It’s sad because if they were more honest and had a better developed character these people would actually experience the joy of honest true love!!!
        Believe it or not I was at a wedding, with my 4 yr old niece on my lap and 7 yr old nephew at my side. They were sent by me because they were “fussing” by their parents. As I whispered to them both what was about to take place at the wedding the kids were entranced like I was reading them a fairy tale!!!
        Later at the reception their parents (my own sister) told me “I was spoiling them” by talking to them so they wouldn’t be fidgeting!!!! CD?

  7. Dr. Simon, I did appreciate your piece about the different types of narcissism very much. It helped with a few of my questions.
    I read an interesting article a few days ago that explained how a supposed girlfriend taunted her boyfriend until he committed suicide. This was very disturbing to me and hit really close to home. Very typical malignant narcissist behavior! I know a malignant narcissist psychopath who pushed one of her co-workers to this suicidal state of mind. The co-worker ended up taking her own life and the psychopath rejoiced. The psychopath even bragged on Facebook about being so manipulative and vindictive.
    I know another person who has had a couple of people in her immediate circle commit suicide. I have not been around this person for a long time so I can’t draw any definite conclusions about her. I just question a few things and I can remember that she was very good with her words. I think I would be able to determine a lot more about her behavior since I know more red flags.

  8. I really tried to respect Dr Simon and to NOT think your blog is mostly a joke. I am constantly looking for honest truth-speakers on all topics of my interest.

    I really think there IS some value and truth in many things he says, but since I’m a honest person, I cannot but see the obvious. The truths he speaks about are shadowed by several obvious inconsistencies and biases that make his blog posts MORE a joke than not.

    Any intelligent person will see them. I see most of your commenters seem to be the ultra people-pleaser and politically correct kind. Yet the inconsistencies and biases are still there for everyone with some honesty to see.

    I will keep visiting your blog from time to time, because you do have a few good points – the discernment between different tipes of narcissism, for example. For the rest, you’re just a man who can do mistakes and perform inaccuracies. Some commenters seem to be so naive as to think you can do no wrong. This is not reality. Reality is that there is an amount of contradiction and lack of honesty in your message, and much voluntarely produced prejudice and confusion. At least in my opinion. If not voluntary, then they’re unintentional – the inaccuracies are still there.

    I’m not going to logically argue the inconsistencies. I invite the readers to see them where they are and abandon the idea Dr Simon is perfect and can never be wrong. He speaks about narcissists after all, and it would be ironic if he were a narcissist as well, right? Reality is that there is no reason to think he couldn’t be. After all, narcissists are almost always men, or so he says.

    As a potential narcissist as any other human being – man or woman, and anything else is feminist bias and not scientific reality, no matter the feminist propaganda that wants you to believe men are narcissists and women are victims – Simon is a potential blame-shifter and stubborn person who dismisses the idea that he could ever be wrong on anything. Again, I am saying he is POTENTIALLY so. It is very naive to think Simon can NEVER have any narcissistic trait, or be manipulative himself.

    In most psychologists/psychiatrists I have met in life, I have seen severe narcissism and other personality disorders. And it was absolutely obvious, and often an idea shared by many, that they had issues.

    Simon, you are spot on that we live in an age of personality disorder. An intelligent indipendent thinker knows that you can well be afflicted by such as well, and takes everything you say with a grain of salt, constantly aware that YOU COULD BE MANIPULATING HERE, that is creating confusion and spreading lies or half-truths in order to serve an agenda.

    Almost everyone has AN AGENDA. It is stupid to think you cannot possibly have an agenda and manipulate your audience for its sake. Reality is you could well have an agenda and be manipulative. The idea that you’re a peerless warrior of truth is much more fantastic.

    To sum up:

    – you obviously speak some truths
    – you obviously cannot be 100% accurate in your assessments; you are human and will do mistakes.
    – there are obvious inaccuracies and biases in your texts, double standards and contradictions which I am not going to argue.
    – I am not going to argue them because:

    a) they are obvious to anyone who is observant.
    b) there is no way you’re going to listen to me and remain objective. You’ll go defensive, proving that it is good to remember that you might be a disordered personality yourself, like most in your profession. It’s an ironic fact that is well known.
    c) such inconsistencies are voluntary, as they serve an AGENDA. There is no point in fighting them and there is no willingness to “seek for the truth”. There is only a strong willingness to live the rest of our lives in illusion and hypocrisy.

    Audience of this blog, please remember dr Simon is just a man.

    Dr Simon, accept you’re a man and take for granted that others will and must see you as a man who can make mistakes. Kill the idea that others have to see you as perfect. Express any opinion of yours with extreme humility and leaving the door open to criticism and making it clear you know that you could be wrong – no cockiness. Else you’re a joke; a douche. Cocky and dismissing the idea you could be wrong = douche.

    After all you yourself speak about the dangers of “self confidence” for its own sake. Well dr Simon, you are WRONG on some things, obviously wrong. For example the idea that narcissists are mainly men.

    The book “The Narcissism Epidemic”, written by one man and one woman, agrees with me. In the last few decades, there’s been an extreme raise of narcissism among women mainly. It’s absolutely unhonest and untruthful, and incredibly useless and counterproductive unless you serve the feminist movement agenda, to keep saying that narcissists are mainly man. It is even more ridiculous to hear this by the mouth of a man. Have some self respect and stop thinking your gender is worse and more megalomaniac, which is not true. Everything else is ridiculous radical feminism that cannot have any pretense of stating the absolute truth. And denying this is pernicious dishonesty to be fought and destroyed.

    Goodbye.

    1. Vaguely and repetitively worded character slander attempt full of circular logic designed to twist our perceptions and make us think the accuser is right and reasonable alright.

      These kinds of circular arguments are pretty common.

    2. Hi Nightmare Forever,

      How are you doing? Have you been having a difficult time? You sound like someone who has been hurt very badly, has had to endure abuse, insincerity. More than anything, Nightmare, you must feel just plain unloved.

      I hope so much that you will be able to write freely about the narcissism in the therapists you have seen. But understand, please, that Dr. Simon is admired and respected but not worshipped, here.

      It goes without saying that he has character flaws like everybody else though. Could he be a master manipulator? I guess. But so could anybody and I am not detecting any red flags in that department and his articles have helped me repair my life and relationships that are key to my life. I think I speak for other posters here, too.

      Are you hurting? Please tell us what has happened to you.

      1. Hey LisaO, very nicely said much better than I could had said it. I am rather fed up and over my head in living and listening to narcs. The one I am dealing with is a nightmare from hell waiting to happen we just don’t know when. Blame shifter to the max and Dr. Simon has been spot on compared to all the psych books I have read and yes, and no excuses for your developmental stunting which I think is BS. I am so sick of your whining, poor me, poor little misfortunate Charactered Disordered Narc.

        That Dirty Dr. Simon got your number “Bad Dr. Simon.” Well Dr. Simon gets 5 stars in my book for clearing the fog in my head in relation to the CD.

        Nightmare Forever, I have lived my life with your kind, heartache and misery, for all the innocent victims the selfish nightmare forever decides to victimize. Get over it your wallowing in self pity and grow up!

    3. My Grandfather and Father were in the Miltary. The have a saying in Miltary circles
      Which is ” Opinions are like arse hole, evey one has one”. Just like you do Nightmare Forever.
      Dr Simon is JUST A MAN, a human being as well and a good one at that. BUT! that is just my opinion.

      Joey Zanne

    4. Nightmare Forever,
      This world is full of people who care nothing for each other. It sounds like you’ve been hurt by all kinds of people. I know for a fact that all women are clearly not exempt from being CD or Narc’s. Just about every female in my first family are/were. As well as the males. In my husbands family, the women were clearly the offenders while the men sat/stood by. Clearly, making all somewhat CD’s. I appreciate Dr. Simon’s work. I do not worship him. He, (I believe) is worth defending! I don’t know of anything he has done to any of us to label him in anyway. You have to actually know a person beyond the scope of their work to make that kind of judgement.
      I hope you are able to somehow or somewhere find it in your heart to examine your heart and find health, hope and healing.
      YOU are worth it!!! My prayer is just that.

  9. The way that these people actually believe they are the way the are because of everyone else, no fault of their own, reflects back on themselves, that’s for sure. The truth is I’ve come to a point where I really don’t care enough about these characters — the problems that they propagate, the emotional damage done to others with no regard for whatever consequences are evaded — to invest the best that I have in them any longer. Because of these tools, I now realize I’ve known many people whose focus is on holding everyone else accountable while pretending like they are not part of the problem. Why play Atlas and shoulder the burdens of all of them if they do not, a) simply refuse to change, and/or b) cannot see the need to? As essential as all this information is, it can also be extremely depressing. I’ve been trying to take a break from thinking about it. It’s so sad seeing the divisiveness that results from all this, but ignoring it for a little while, while still acknowledging the root problems and being on constant guard, is helpful, even if it there is little progress. A few have said here that self is the main priority, combined with a transformed perspective. Growth of any kind lies in consistency. Thank you, to all here … Onward and homeward.

    1. Alan P,
      It’s very difficult to live with and/or be surrounded with CD’s, true. You sound tired. Take a break you deserve some rest from the nonsense. I know that’s exactly what I’ve been doing as well. My BP is actually going down so rest is needed. I just want to tell you what I’ve learned…go ahead and stomp the dust off your feet from those who don’t want to change. If you can talk with just ONE person who may want to examine their own heart and forge a better relationship then all is worth it. Good folks are hard to find these days!!! I feel for you!

  10. Timothy, It is really sad when you realize that a narcissistpsychopathmalignant narcissist does not see their behavior as negative in any way. I can remember how hard one of my narcs was constantly trying to convince me that I am weak. Psychos see the fact that they are able to push a person to that point as a benefit to society since they are just weeding out the weak ones. Can you imagine how sad the world would be if there was only predators left?! The world would be a quite a disaster since violence would be rampant.

    1. Then it would be just predators(and their ilk?) fighting all each other and that would be the only thing anyone cared about anymore and then nothing would matter anymore.

          1. Thanks!! I haven’t but I will keep an eye out. Just that psycho in the Hunger Games was very sad too!!

    2. Carrie,
      I think that was why I had night terrors last 2 yrs!!! When I describe to 2 people in my family what healthy families look like they try harder to confront their own bad behavior! A world with just predators???? YIKES!

  11. Courtesy of contributors

    Some references have been popping up lately, so I think it could be beneficial to make a list.

    So far:

    *Abnormal Behavior and Personality by Theodore Millon and Renee Millon
    *Psychology of Self and the treatment of Narcissism by Richard D. Chessick
    *Assessing Psychological Trauma and PTSD
    *Emotional abuse by Marti Tamm Loring
    *Verbally abusive relationship by Pat Evans
    *People of the lie and The road less travelled(?) by M. Scott Peck
    *Primal Scream by Arthur Janov

    Also, I’m waiting for my copy of Unlocking the emotional brain by Bruce Ecker. Hopefully someone else has also taken interest.

    There also was a mention of the Youtube-channel SpartanLifeCoach(thanks Alan P.).

    Of course, it would be appreciated if other contributors updated this list every now and then. There probably are many other references I haven’t stumbled upon or noticed.

    1. I would also suggest another Pat Evans book, “Victory over verbal abuse”.

      “Healing the Child Within” by Charles Whitfield is also very beneficial.

  12. In reference to Dr. Simon’s article: “Two Types of Narcissism and How to Tell the Difference”; do I understand this correctly? There are some people who know what they are doing to others although they don’t care. And some people who do not know what they are doing to others although they do care?

    Isn’t this what Simon Baron-Cohen and neuro-science research has been indicating….zero-negative and zero-positive empathy levels?

    1. Suzi, The way I understand it is that the vulnerable narcissist does not have the same self-esteem as the grandiose (malignant) narcissist. They both feed off victims but come across differently in the initial stages. The vulnerable narcissist is usually hurt very drastically in the early stages of life and never feels quite adequate unless they are getting constant recognition. The grandiose (malignant) narc is mean and vindictive and enjoys hurting people.
      My first husband was always looking for validation. In the beginning of the marriage I would go out of my way to try to make him feel better about himself. I soon realized that the more I tried to help, the more leverage I was giving him to damage me. He was always out to get admiration from ladies especially. Anyone that was not around him very much thought he was wonderful.
      My second husband was a grandiose, malignant narcissist (psycho) who set up his grooming techniques from day one. He loved to be the meanest person he could. He prided himself in being able to instill PTSD in victims. I could go on and on about the suffering he caused.
      Yet, I know another narcissist who has little pieces of the vulnerable narcissist but is very malignant. I see OCD and BPD as well. I am not a psychologist and don’t have analysis but this is what I notice.
      I had this helps and it just might be that I am not understanding correctly!!

      1. Well explained here, Carrie. And with respect to the male-female differences in narcissism, my other article on the subject did not suggest (as one reader so angrily asserted) that more men are narcissists than women. Rather, I reported on the research that is suggesting that men have a propensity to be more of the grandiose vs. vulnerable narcissitic type, whereas the reverse is true for women. And these are only early indications that have not yet been fully validated. There are some studies suggesting that narcissism is indeed manifested in different ways between men and women and that socio-cultural climate and rearing practices have a good deal to do with how narcissism is both developed and expressed.

        1. Dr. Simon, I do appreciate your knowledge on this subject. It seems to be that the legal system could benefit greatly by reading your research. I know that the lawyers and judges in the criminal aspect of things are probably more accustomed to dealing with the narcissist individuals. I know several people including myself that have been taken for a wild ride in divorce court. I have one friend who had her five kids (one special needs) taken from her when she divorced a psychopath. The judge ordered the kids and mother to go through counseling but the psychopath managed to brainwash the judge, lawyers, counselor, and the kids. My friend managed to get her kids back after five years and a different lawyer. 

  13. “but when they’ve done something that truly injures,”
    “ they feel bad when they realize the damage they’ve caused and will do what it takes to restore their good name.”

    This is the part I don’t understand:
    What does it mean they feel bad and will do what it takes”?

  14. I just read an article about the psychopathic heart murderer Michelle Carter. This is very disturbing to me. It especially makes me sad to think that our society is so depraved. Michelle Carter was the 17 year old girl who encouraged her 18 year old severely depressed boyfriend to commit suicide. She faces up to 20 years in prison but it currently out on a $2500 bond. Carter has been to the prom and Disneyworld since the incident. Two weeks after the catastrophe Carter send a text to the victim’s mother saying that she would have done anything to change things and she was very upset. Carter was on the phone with her victim for 43 minutes before he took his life and then bragged to her friend that she could have stopped him at any time. This is all very typical behavior for a psychopath because they love to have complete control and use people like puppets. The article pointed out that Carter loved her control and it was the ultimate boost to her ego.
    I can remember after my car accident that resulted in brain damage my mother was able to get excessive adoration and attention. She loved it! Psychos are able to make black look white and use their words to create excess drama. Malignant mommy narc was able to try to deter any recovery I was able to make. She constantly whined to people how hard it was to watch me make baby steps and therefore my accident was actually harder on her then it was on me. I just took matters in my own hands and realized if things were to get done I would have to do it myself.

  15. Courtesy of contributors update

    Dunno, I think that sounds good.

    *Abnormal Behavior and Personality; Theodore Millon and Renee Millon
    *Psychology of Self and the treatment of Narcissism; Richard D. Chessick
    *Assessing Psychological Trauma and PTSD
    *Emotional abuse; Marti Tamm Loring
    *Verbally abusive relationship; Pat Evans
    *People of the lie and The road less travelled(?); M. Scott Peck
    *Primal Scream; Arthur Janov
    *Trauma and Recovery: The aftermath of violence – From domestic abuse and political terror; Judith Herman, M.D.
    *Victory over verbal abuse; Pat Evans
    *Healing the Child Within; Charles Whitfield

    1. I really loved reading WITHOUT CONSCIENCE by Robert Hare. It was a fantastic book and it answered so many questions about the individuals I grew up with and the overabundance of CD’S in everyday life. I also have others that are packed away in storage right now.

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