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Dear Dr Simon
I’m writing to offer some insight as to how In Sheep’s Clothing has help me and I hope that what I have written here may help another person who is lost and looking for a way back to their life. I’ve read In Sheep’s Clothing several times and can honestly say it has been instrumental in my journey of reclaiming my life after a relationship with a disturbed character. After 5 years of off and on I was at wits end. I was depressed and spiralling down further after each episode with my ex.
I read everything I could get my hands on about disturbed characters and associated personality disorders. I also read inspiring books as well as books on overcoming adversity, books of quotes, photography books – anything that was positive and made me feel good. I still carry some of them in my handbag in case I feel I need a lift.
In Sheep’s Clothing talks about working out what makes you vulnerable to this type of person and despite my initial reaction to this suggestion I’ve learnt it really is a crucial step in gaining your life back.
Something that made me vulnerable is my own beliefs. I had convinced myself he was ‘the one’. I thought I wouldn’t be going through all this for nothing. I convinced myself my future was with this person so I did everything in my power to make this relationship work. He knew this (I had told him more then once!)and that is what allowed him to treat me so badly – he knew I would always take him back and do anything I could to make ‘things better’ because I considered him my future. This goes beyond taking someone for granted – this is like a ‘kid in a candy shop’ for a disturbed character – unlimited manipulation and control with no boundaries or consequences.
The last component of the book that I believe is the key to personal empowerment is accepting that not everyone is the same. Disturbed characters REALLY ARE different from other people. They know they are doing the wrong thing, they know they are hurtful but they JUST DON’T CARE! You want to believe this doesn’t apply to your situation but it does and once you accept this concept your life will be more peaceful knowing you did the right thing in leaving.
I believe my situation is an excellent example of the importance of your empowerment tools but you need to be an emotinally healthy person to execute these tools and I was not this person. Judging actions not intension, acting quickly and putting in boundaires are all thing that could have kept my life under my control. I’m still coming to terms with this and trying not to beat myself up about it. Sometimes life lessons come at a very big cost and I feel this is what happen to me. However, I still consider myself one of the lucky ones – I got my life back. What is more important then that?
Never in a million years did I think I would be at the point I am now. I love my life again, I can see the old me is coming back and that gives me strength and reassurance I’m on the right track. I still have low days but I handle them a lot better then I used to. I am still working on my vulnerabilities and understanding myself better and what I want from life but I recognise that I am a happier person away from my ex then I ever was when I was with him. When I look back at our ‘good times’, I was never as content and calm as I am now. I got this sort of insight from cutting off all contact and giving myself some time.
If anyone is in the same situation I was in can I suggest:
Accept that your life is about YOU. It’s not about ‘carrying’ someone else or trying to ‘help’ them or ‘rescue’ them. Your number 1 responsibility is to YOU. Disturbed characters lean on other people because they are not strong enough to carry all of their damaging traits and need to unload them from time to time. Don’t be a dumping ground!
Read In Sheep’s Clothing more then once, more then twice. You will notice that different messages resonate with you at different times depending on where you are at with your recovery.
Be determined to get through the bad times and regain YOUR life. I would read everything I could just to find one positive quote or saying or story to keep me moving forward.
You will feel better, you will feel happier and your life will come back – just give yourself time, patience and lots of TLC
I’m looking forward to reading the new book – can’t wait for the lessons……
Hello,
It was nice to read your comment about the book. I want to buy it also but I have problems signing in to Amazon and I do not get any help from there. So it is impossible for me to get the book.
Anyhow, about relations I think nowadays, that a good relation and friendship should be more or less EFFORTLESS. There should not be fights all the time, not arguing, not so many bad feelings, supressed feelings all the time. You should be able to tell freely how you feel or your opinion without getting back violent attacks, verbal or physical – and the other person has a right to say his/her opinions and express her feelings, too. Whenever the relationship or friendship does not go on basically smoothly and more or less effortlessly, I think that it is better to go away. People have nowadays so much to do, they have their work, they have children, they have all kind of FUN things they can do – so why the hell waist the time with someone, with whom things are not simply going on happily??? And actually you do not need any other reasons to make that decision. You do not must look for lies or things like that to prove, that the relationship/friendship is full of nothing, because you just FEEL it. It is empty. It is too heavy – and life is not supposed to be heavy. Relationships are supposed to be joy in people’s lives, not constant sorrow.
I just listened to a podcast today of Dr.Simon’s….I had not heard of his books before and only after just a few minutes of him speak, I knew I needed to order his books…..”Character disturbed” is a very interesting ,and I feel the perfect, label to put on these people.
I hope you are well
Thank you so much for writing that. I’ve been unbelievably in a 33 year relationship… Now finally something makes sense.
Thanks for the great advice Cathy!
Good to hear you’re recovering your life. Hopefully I can do the same.
Best,
Pax.
Dear Dr Simon,
Sincere and heartfelt thanks for a great website – reading it has given me some comfort.
My recent relationship was fraught with LIES (she’s just a ‘friend’), denial, put downs and anger. I wasted time, money and compromised my sanity.
The last straw was when we went on holidays overseas for 3 weeks where he initiated fights with me DAILY. I now understand that this was a tactic he used to get rid of me as his relationship with his ‘friend’ had intensified and I was clearly on my way out. I called the relationship off 5 days after we arrived home by confronting him about her. We broke up on a Saturday afternoon and by eveneing (same day) he had announced to all at a party they went to that she was his girlfriend. I gave my ex an opportunity to walk away from the relationship we had, but he always assured me I had nothing to worry about?! Can this be normal behaviour??
What is most painful for me now is that he has stonwalled me. I sent the last of his things to him by registered post and he sent them back to me ‘return to sender’ – clearly trying to hurt me. Also, whenever he sees my sister he runs over to greet her as if she’s a great dear friend of his and as if nothing has happened. My sister described his behaviour as if he is ‘dodging bullets’ by making everyone think he did nothing wrong. I have asked my sister to tell him off next time by reminding him the self-esteem damage he has caused. I feel so sad. I did nothing wrong.
Thanks again Dr Simon for caring about mankind and helping us understand about these people.
FM (Australia)
Flo,
I’m sorry for the betrayal. I went through it too. It hurts bad – for a while – and then you get angry. The anger seems to dissipate the hurt, anyway in my case. I hope you get to feeling less distraught as time goes on. Be glad you’re done (in a sense anyway) with the lying cheat piece of ****.
Thanks, Flo, for your comments and endorsement of my work.
Hi Dr. Simon. I am reaching out to you because I need help. I suspect that I’m being gaslighted at home. Is it possible to send me an email?
Hello Shelly,
I’m lucky to have found your note! If you wish to contact me for any reason, the way to do it is with the form on the Contact page of the blog. The information you put there is confidential, but it provides a way to correspond via email.
Best,
gs
do you know of any studies done on victims of narcissistic abuse? if so , please email me. i would travel the ends of the earth to have a professional hear my story.
When you see a large white space here, think of all the cruel evils, and be surprised to learn wives are not always the victim
Then think decades more. Pained, arrested, or dead, it’s a daily power game. Affairs or passionate love, lies or can’t recall, it’s always stealing the truth….
Noway,
This character disturbance is definitely not gender specific. I’ve had both male and females in my life (brother, sisters and mother who have inflicted immense damage).
Hope you’re ok.
Best,
Pax.
Dr. Simon I really need your help. Ive been in a psychopathic relationship for 38 yrs. It has cost me everything. My job. (27 yrs) Down the drain, my children. Turned against me. It seems as if it will never get better. My own mother and husband set me up. The betrayal is like nothing I have ever experienced. I need to talk to someone who knows what I am talking about. Now, I have no insurance, which makes it even worse. That in itself is a problem. I don’t want to die sad. Please help me.
Gigi,
Welcome and I hope we can be of some assistance to you. We have a pretty good group of people that reply. You sound very desperate and somewhat destitute. Have you considered going to the Women’s Center ? They have counselors and group meetings you can attend at no cost.
They are very empathetic and understand the dynamics of a CD relationship. You will find a lot of support there. You are welcomed to post here too. I am not sure at this point what I can help you with. I can suggest you read Dr. Simons books and of course read all you can in the archives.
You will find many stories similar to yours. We try to find answers and resolutions to the dilemma many of us find in having lived with the CD.
I encourage you to write freely what is going on in your life.
Blessings
This is a cry for help … did Doctor Simon get to help her yet!
Dear Dr. Simon,
I read your book ” In sheeps clothing” and suddenly understood the behavior of my last boyfriend and of my mother. 50 years! I was bonded to her by manipulation and destructive behavior but in such a hidden way, that I could not identify it. She is so lovely in public und everyone trusts her, so that my own feelings since early childhood seemed to be wrong. “Be glad to have such a nice mother” I always heard from all sides.
She uses 8 or 9 of your described technics, that is enough. Not identyfying, what happened to me all the time, I fell in love with a real bad narcissist. He opened my eyes in a real bad way. He uses all of your described technics!!! At the end of our relationship he said, that he has no feelings for anyone, including his parents.
That is true. I saw him smiling, when his friend came out of a hospital, broken because of a very heavy desease, unable to work anymore. And my “boyfriend” smiled and was happy about it!!! He never visited him in hospital and when he heard, that his friend could not work anymore und therefore was useless for my boyfriend, he let him down, broke friendship and told everyone lies about his old friend to cover his own bad behavior. He is becoming more worse. He tries to break people, to break their soul.
I have never seen things like that before. Such a covered hate to everyone!!!
Now he has a new girlfriend and I think, he will behave much more worse to her than to me.
He is glad to hurt people after they built up trust in him. This seems to be his
hobby. Sometimes he showed very strange opinions and told me that he thinks, that there are two persons inside of him. After leaving him, I thought a long time about it and discovered, that he switches between the personality of his father and his mother (both are strange people). He has only small parts of an own personality. His parents had been together 50 years in a very bad relationship. I am a little bit afraid of this man, so I stay away from him.
I am still very shocked. On the other hand I am glad to know now about my mother..
If that man had not “helped” me to open my eyes, I would stay my mothers little daughter and servant until the end of my life.
So thank you very much for your book.
Moni from Germany
Moni,
I’m glad to hear you have come out of these relationships with a still life, that now makes sense to you. For me, once I understood and accepted the reality of the person causing me grief the hurt feelings went away. Now it’s time to recover. So exhausting dealing with these types of people, and your X sounds awful scary.
Hallo Lucy,
thank you for your comment. Sometimes I have to look for the vocabulary, because this is my old School English. I think, he is really scary, I found some hints, that he was sexually and emotionally abused in his early childhood. I am not sure, but he gave me some hidden und weird hints. I am like a detective to understand what happened. I think, that it was his grandfather und perhaps his own father, and his mother closed her eyes, so that she could have a “family.” But nevertheless, there must be some natural awful traits in him too. Thank God, that he is not a child abuser in a sexual way. I am sure about it. And I am really sure, that he does not know about his own abuse or he denies it.
Once he spoke with the voice of his father, asking me not to smoke so many cigarettes. He did not only speak like his father, he “was” his father at that moment. He has a deep hate against women, therefore I think, that his mother was involved in it in some way. I really hope, that he has no personal crisis the next years. He is not physically violent against women, “only” sadistic in his behavior (not sexual behavior). But he has been violent toward men in the past (Beatings). It is the first time, that I write about my suspicion and discoveries. And I really hope , that his new girlfriend will not be emotional destroyed by him. As far as I know, she had been married to a man before, who betrayed her about 18000 €. So, she is a very good victim for him. She thinks, she has met her dream partner. It will be the hell after a short time. I hope, you believe me. It sounds so crazy and so dangerous. If my suspicions are right, he is an explosive mixture of different personality disorders.
For me, it is getting better. I know, he is not normal at all. It is not my guilt. I will have strong boundaries in my future and be more careful with people. It is not my task to rescue people, it is my task to become happy. But it is still a long hard way and I am 51.!!!!
I am just discovering my own wishes, my own life and change a lot of things. So many of my workmates say, I have changed the last months in a very positive way. It is not only to recover, but to develop my own personality, which was repressed by my mother and X.
Thank you for answering so fast, I was happy, that there was someone listening to me.
I wish all the best to you on your way.
Thank you, Moni for the kind and validating words. Such validation means a lot, and always has.
Best,
gs
Moni,
I’m listening. So are others, as you see, even Dr. Simon. Dr. Simon has so many enlightening articles in this website as are his books.
You have lived with a person with severe mental disorders and I’m glad you came out of it and looking forward to your new life. I know a good life is out there – minus the disordered people. There are so many kind people. We just have to beware to not become victimized again.
I hope to keep hearing from you.
Moni,
I believe you. It’s often so difficult to believe that we’re not the crazy ones, isn’t it?
Dear Charlie,
thank you for believing. Yes, and you “hit the ball.” It is a german expression, that you are right in your opinion.
Dear Lucy,
I will write again. But at the moment I have to work. I did not sleep well last night, because it is still upsetting (exciting). I hope I found the right english word.
Sometimes I think, I have been part of a really cheap TV-film, which I called nonsense before I had this experience. Now I know better.
Dr. Simon,
I recently attended and enjoyed one of your workshops. You mentioned that people could request the relationship partners version of your “Errors in Thinking” and “Responsibility Avoidance Behaviors” worksheets. At your convenience I would be interested in copies of them.
Thank you,
TWBTC
(the woman behind the curtain)
A Cry for Justice website
Dr. Simon,
I need help.
Can you help me.
I am a manipulative person.
I live in the Chicago area.
I’m having a hard time finding someone to help me.
Can you refer me to someone there?
Robert Kemper,
Another way to get help is to simply help yourself.
You may want to confess the same to your near and dears who may be having difficult time with you. Simply tell them that you are manipulative person and everyone will be better off if you get treated as such. Or, just simply point them to this blog, and they should be able to help themselves, and in turn help you indirectly.
It is good to see that you are honest and forthcoming. I am sure you will eventually find the kind of help you are seeking.
Dr. Simon,
My situation is that I have had gaslighting for the past 42 of my 42 years. I know that my grandfather was worse. What happens to generations before that one?
Hi Dr. Simon. Last year sometime I was reading your series on Developing Character, the Ten Commandments on the web site Counseling Resource. I somehow thought you had published a book on this topic of Developing Character. Is this information in the book, How did we End up here? I am looking at different resources towards that end of character development in myself currently. Thank you for your books. I have the first three and have given and lent my own copies to people. I have also read many of your posts on a variety of web sites and thank you for that as well. I have shared with people that there has been a paradigm shift and they look at me like I’m from Mars. That’s okay. I Know what I have experience in life. Kathy
Dear Community,
I just found this page cause I was looking for how to deal with emotional manipulative surpression. At the moment I m that kind of confused that I don’ t really know if I am the manipulator or the other person. Fact is we try to lead a relationship but for me it was obvious three monthes ago that there is someting wrong. I couldnt really completly fall in love cause it was strange that at the one hand he jzst daily visoted me, than put a lot of pressure on me cause he was always in hurry getting my complete attention, time and love. Meanwhile i was than kind of trapped in my own traumatic believes having fear beeing dominated by another person. But just the expression: a person has to “earn” his freedom just let me think…what the f* is that? Every time I didn’ t react the way he wished me to react there was this deep felt anger that bursted out with a kind of sarcastuc way he turned around and left me. I just stood there mouth open not really knowing what I did wrong. After a certain time I turned into a toxic person either and what turned out is not the best side of my character. So i pleased him to stop relationship cause even if there is still a deep loyality and understanding for each other, I don’ t trust the evidence that we are not really doing good to each other even we try to help each other. I m kind of depressed meanwhile too cause he just starts making drama out of everything and its just strssing to calm wverything down, clear it out aso. I like this person cause he had really several troubles in his life but neveetheless he s the kind of ENJT-A Person concerning Mayer Briggs…is very attentional as well as assertive, and reliable. But at least he s not reliable for me cause everytime I refused seeing him the times he “ordrered” to see me, complaing i would just waste hus time by arguing for my “me- time” to visit friends or do things I really enjoy…he started to play this on off games until I said ok if you really like to quit i quit, cause I dont like those manipulative actions. At least it ended up into another manipulative action…and he got me again caring for him and his wish to wanting a relationship. I just told him its certainly better to stay friends cause it doesn’t really work out the way we both see a good working relationship. He knows his faults as well as I do. But I don’ trust these changes cause I dont know when this manipulating games start again? Meanwhile I find myself trying to find the “right decision”…what means I dont want to hurt at the other hand we see potential and i want to decide in a moral way not wanting him to recall his traumatic experiences of severe treason that was threatening his life mentally and phisically but luckily surviving (war). But at least I guess I have to decide personally out of my own gut feeling and perspective. But well asking myself if I am manipulating as well. Especially in that case? Or is it part of this pattern…for me its no game, and its not about winning or loosing…its fighting for equality and respect…but he uses this words when something turns not out as he pretends it to be. Any recommenndations? Thank you so far…best wishes to all and the power for change. AL
Thank you for such nice words, which I’m sure the community would like to hear. But commenting on this page is not likely to reach many. Best to comment on one of the articles. Or use the “contact” box on this page to send me a personal message.
Again, thanks so much for your comments.
gs
Alexandra,
What you write sounds like a complicated and troubling relationship. Ask yourself some questions:
Do you truly enjoy being with this person?
Does this person cause you much grief and confusion?
Do you find yourself constantly questioning yourself, your actions, because of what he claims you do?
Was your day to day life better before you met this person?
Do you want a honest, loving relationship or a project?
You know the answers. If this person is toxic and things just don’t feel right, then they aren’t.
I think you need to get away from this person and go No Contact, which means don’t speak with him anymore, block his calls. Get him out of your life and start fresh and anew. You get too deep with someone like him it will become harder and harder to leave as your self esteem diminishes. Get out now.
Dear Lucy,
Thank you very much for your reply and the kind of right questions. It’ s true that I know the answers and it’ s true as well that it gets harder and harder to get out. So it’ s simply on me now to develop selfresponsible and selfcaring action. Best wishes sincerely Alexandra
Alexandra
You have a good head on your shoulders and are thinking clearly. You are onto his game. Like you say, it’s now about self care and I’m sire you know deep down what needs to be done
Please join us in the current topic section. You will learn much and get much needed support. We’ve all been through and/or still are going through troubling times with the CDs in our lives
Thank you very much Dr. Simon for your recommendation and advice.
Hello!
I have been searching for answers that I have found difficult to come by even on the internet. It could be because of a lack of the correct terminology.
How common is it for a person with a personality disorder to commit suicide as a punishment for the surviving family?
Or would it more likely be as a result of shame after exposed incest, or perhaps to escape jail time?
Please help
Annelie
You will get much more in the way of response if you post this question in the comments after Dr. Simon’s most recent post. Good luck! Sounds really bad!
CD people aren’t known for high suicide rates, but are certainly high up there in the imcest category.
If person is CD and incestuous I can see avoidance of jail as a motivator for suicide. Although they are vengeful people, they are unlikely to hurt themselves in order to hurt others.
Sounds like a sad sad situation.
Hello Dr. Simon,
Your posts are truly valuable and the comments were very helpful, though some of them very awful stories. It’s very strange that how narcissists can successfully create an inflated high-regard self image, and they can manipulate other people to think that the victim is indeed the guilty and disordered one. You cannot see what kind of monster they are until you get close enough to observe and get to know them.
About my story, i think i have got away with minimum harm, but it is still hard to see and digest the truth that someone I value has NPD and how she intensionally harmed me in cold blood.
The person i am talking about is my colleague, who i really got used to and valued very much as a friend. The mirroring capability of them makes you think and believe they sincerely care about you. Also it makes you think you have a lot in common and get along very well. There was always a sense of doubt in me by intuition or say, maybe 6th sense. I tried to be helpful to her for a long time, but fortunately maintained a boundary outside work.
As a typical narcissist, she asks a lot of personal questions to gather personal data about people, but seeming to be a really kind and caring friend doing this. She also unnecesarily disclosed me her family relationships and problematic relationships with friends to create pity. I am learning that this tactic is also typical of the schemas they use. Through time i observed how the admiring image (inflated ego) of herself did not match with the qualities and capabilities she had, and saw that she needed constant nurturing to make things go. I talked about this carefully trying to give positive feedback and not try to hurt her, but i think i triggered a button that hit the narcissistic vulnurability and things went wrong after that. To validate myself, i baited her a couple of times to see what i was to her. Maybe that was a mistake, but my habit is to research anything that i doubt. And her response was like i was a total stranger.
Recently i asked for the follow up a duty she was assigned, and she had no idea nor seemed to care about it. We had an argument and saw that she was keeping track of every regular or work related conversation we had, and shared everything with the management only to dynamite my reputation. And i still do not know what impression she created about me with what she told in her point of view. It’s possible that she has other CDs other than NPD (covert type), some of her statements even pointing schizophrenia and paranoia. I was shocked how she put a mask like an actress and how easily she lied to condemn me, like i never saw her before. She threatened me not to disclose this event to any of my friends, more like an ultimatum coming from an authority figure (just to maintain her inflated false self-image).
Carefully observing, she can disguise to many characters depending on the situation, but my observations were too late to keep myself away from harm. I know that all this disorders source from lack of care and abandonment from a parent and the deep feeling of shame it created. But i still have to protect myself. She is still in my circle of friends, though i ignore her most of the time. Recently her attempts for adulation, attention and attempt to dominate every conversation has become so irritating and pathetic that i cannot stand. And it is unsettling to see that noone is seeing the very serious problems with her and she is continuing to make a good impression of herself, seeming like a very kind, compassionate and proper person. I cannot imagine the limit of harm she can do to others. Maybe if she’s properly tolerated, they may not even see it for years.
In this situation, what can i do to protect myself? We don’t talk to each other, but i know that she sees me as an enemy. She has the capability to manipulate anyone, and unfortunately i am the only person immune to her tactics, currently being the Gray Rock. I read the book In Sheep’s Clothing, but things went so out of way that the behaviour patterns told in the book won’t work anymore.
G.R.
I hope you continue to read the blog and encourage you to post on the current topic. All of the regular posters will be glad to assist in any way possible, answering many of your questions and validating your experiences. They will also support you and help point you in to other resources that may help you.
Please check back later as I know others will comment on your post. Besides reading the blog I would encourage you to read Dr. Simon’s other books, as well as, listening to Dr. Simon’s call in program on Sunday nights.
Good day
Im looking for help and came across your webpages, which proved to be very helpful!
A background: I was in a relationship for 3 years, when I started to realise this relationship was extremely toxic, I tried to leave but found that it was nearly impossible, and have slowly broken off contact in the last year.
This person was initially very friendly and likeable, he was in a church leadership posistion and convinced me to join his group fairly quickly. We became very close very quickly, and in hindsight, I realised that he lied constantly so as to be appealing to me (eg, I am doing a language degree and he said he could speak 5 languages, but then I realised he could only speak 2 later on). We started spending much of our time together, and he made an effort to be close to my family (buying my mother flowers, messaging her regularly etc). He confessed very strong feelings for me, but despite these feelings, never wanted to commit to our relationship. About 6 months in, I found out he was seeing someone, but lied continuously about their relationship when confronted. This was a pattern I would often observe in the 3 years- he would befriend and become extremely close to other women, usually naive, compassionate, soft-hearted, caring, kind, and emotionally vulnerable women. While I do not think these relationships were sexual in nature, as I met many of these “friends”, I do think he had some sort of psychological need to be liked by and be close to these girls, fostering an almost dependency on himself. Yet he always maintained his feelings for me and wanted to be together when he had a better home or car or more finances or felt he was ready, yet continued to act like we were in a committed relationship with his actions and messages and told his friends and family we were serious. He also often alluded to his past, he said he was abandoned by his mother, rejected by his father and raised by his grandmother who was in an abusive relationship, his uncle who visually exposed him to both hetero- and homosexual acts at an early age also lived with them for a while. I am still unsure how much of his story is true as I have met both his parents and neither appear to harbour ill feelings. I felt very empathetic towards him and cared deeply. He often behaved irrationally and impulsively, having emotional outbursts for seemingly small things. When confronted, he would sometimes allude to his childhood/exes as the reason for his feelings or his mistrust. He maintained contact with his exes regularly and told me they had both cheated in him, but that he had wanted to try again and they rejected him. In time, our relationship became sexually involved (although we did not actually have sex). He did not always seem interested, and swung between a very strong, demanding sexual drive (8-12 hours at a time), and no interest whatsoever. It is my belief that he came to use our physical relationship as a manipulative/control tool. I initially did not want to be sexually involved, and would sometimes tell him he made me feel unsafe/unwanted etc, and sometimes he would respond very lovingly with promises of marriage and declarations of love, other times he would blame and emotionally/verbally abuse me (calling me a whore, remarking on my appearance, making jokes, slut-shaming etc,) despite knowing I was a virgin and had not even been in a serious relationship, or been sexually involved with any person before or since having met him. He could not stay in one job for longer than 3 months and would always blame the employer or external circumstances, and would manipulate me into lending him money or driving him to work. I also observed that he did not maintain personal relationships for a long period of time, even with male friends, and if he was not the victim, there would be a vague reason for the relationship not working out. Over time, I noticed a cycle in our relationship, where we would be happy, something would happen (he would ignore me completely for days on end, say something hurtful about my weight or appearance, promise to do something then not do it, lie about something, exhibit abusive behavious such as pushing me around, gaslighting, etc) which I would eventually confront him about, he would then either act as though I was overreacting, or that it was my fault or play the victim. He would also then become very close to me and buy me gifts and write love letters and try win me over again, saying he had been through a difficult circumstance or been under stress and promising he was different and really wanted to make an effort, until he would begin to exhibit the same problematic behaviour. He was also jealous without reason, as I saw and spoke to no one else, slut shaming me even thouh I said he could read my messages and knew I was with no one because I was mostly with him. He would call my mother while I was in class or with female friends saying he was worried as I was not answering my messages, even if I was. He became increasingly possesive and controlling over time, especially when I began to realise how toxic our relationship was and tried to pull away. I put all of myself into the relationship,at the time thinking it was my fault we were fighting or that he behaved the way he did, until my sister and a friend began to inquire about my relationship and tried to make me see how toxic the relationship was. They noticed because I became withdrawn and depressed, because I was hiding much of his behaviour and was constantly emotional and unsure of myself, despite having been a happy, extroverted, busy and content person. I tried to break off our relationship but he would call my mother or come to my house uninvited or message my friends. Eventually, I broke our relationship off over a year, even stopping attending the activities we did together (joined a new church, moved house, joined a new gym, etc). He is currently blocked on all social media, and does not know where I live or have contact with my friends or family.
I sent a message asking for help because I want to know how one heals from such a person as it affects me every day and I struggle with low self-worth, and what personality disorder he had as he doesnt fit into any specific disorder. I truly hope you can help me and give me clarity. I do not hate him because I do think it is possible he had a difficukt childhood, but I struggle to understand why I fell for him and stayed for so long as I am considered fairly intelligent and independent, and struggle to forgive myself for staying even though I know it was difficult at the time to see what was happening and how manipulative he was.
Thank you!
I didn’t realize my post would be public.Would you please remove location data and my full name?
Thank you
Dr. Simon, How does one go about helping the victim of narcissistic abuse when they are unaware yet that they are married to a manipulative person? How can we make them aware? How does one go about suggesting couples therapy when they are in th early stages of the abuse?
Hello Dr Simon and fellow readers,
I am more than a little grateful to have come across the ideas and books of Dr Simon.
I find my self in barely tolerable and relentless conflict with abusive, narcissistic personalities. I have many in my immediate family -and then encounter them in the outside world. ..Consequently, I am 40 years old and have $8 in my bank account and very little work experience or independence -I have been controlled and bullied and cut off. …And it only continues to happen.
It is a nightmare.
I am so grateful to have at last found an “expert” who actually has expertise. …I truly feel that victims of narcissistic abuse are either so beaten down, like women in domestic violence, or are otherwise too good for their own good.
For me, it is some of both. I feel that because I in fact have some narcissism -however, I much prefer the term egocentricity and I believe that it is truly more applicable to me- I was both treated to a real lack of forgiveness from family when I was a young woman and had a hostile attitude in fact my self. …I agree with a degree of the harshness that I received from authorities involved, but feel pretty good about saying that I deserved some forgiveness nonetheless.
…It is ironic that I should say this. And I have considered that maybe it is some over-sensitivity on my part that has led to my then being “too nice” and then an easy target for narcissists. …The other possibility that I much prefer and I think is in fact true, is that the failure of a single person to insist that it was STILL wrong for me to be abused and especially for as long as it went on (I encountered retaliation from a coworker who was pretty narcissistic himself) ….that this was difficult.
I believe that something rather complex is at work here. That it goes hand in hand with understanding spiritual ideas. ….I believe that a sort of paradox is at work behind all these issues and that in order for a person who has a lack of empathy to truly change, they need to be able to accept two opposing beliefs at the same time.
…Or, to put it another way: I did need a strong level of retaliation in order to get the message that I was perceiving narcissistically. However, I also needed a person in authority, especially a parent figure, who was able to model the correct and empathetic perception that “all abuse is wrong, period” ….including that which is a retalliation, because two wrongs don’t make a right.
The right touch was needed. I did not quite get it from those in authority involved and I definetly did not receive it from my father. …Who himself is narcissistic.
What I observe in my family is a bunch of narcissitic personalities, sadly I have to include my self in that at least in terms of past way of being (however, I would have most likely been diagnosed as an inverted narcissist, if not with female asperger’s or borderline aspergers …as this incident that I refer to above was very out of character for me, and was my desparate attempt to find some kind of boundary to protect my self around males and i had a lack of a sense of who they were with respect to me and especially of how to protect my self in regards to other narcissistic sorts of males who themselves has a lack of respect for boundaries ….it is always mostly when like meets like that in my experience I see these conflicts and breakdowns happen …which is why it is VERY hard much of the time to exist in my family if one has been the chosen scapegoat).
I have had to repair my sense of right and wrong. Since in my family there exists a bullying culture -where abuse is pretty much acceptable, at least for anyone in a position of power or status. ….I think that it is this hypocritical contradiction that other narcissitic abusers take advantage of…. and the narcissist victim/target/scapegoat is then conditioned, most likely by their family (who are most likely to also be narcissists) to unconsciously expect abuse for how they are.
The covert aggressive narcissists, are the ones who have gotten away with abuse, and/or they never learned to live within the paradox (that I try to explain above). Narcissistic people are very black and white because they are essentially tunnel visioned. They have great trouble seeing the whole and especially holding two opposing points of view at the same time -just as they are so hypersensitive to any conflict. They likewise struggle greatly with managing conflicts, and conflict is a part of life: we will always find those with whom we don’t get along so easily with and who we clash to some degree with.
This is why I believe that narcissistic personality types need training to tolerate different viewpoints at the same time – to tolerate the discomfort of this.
This is also what is behind, I believe Dr Simon’s approach: almost a forcing of the narcissist to stay with their discomfort …and it is NOT abusive to push back JUST ENOUGH to get the other person to back down and desist in THEIR ABUSIVENESS.
But it is a delicate balance. I believe that the victim and the abuser CAN (though certainly not always) have much in common, whilst at the same time what they DO NOT have in common nonethless is worth MUCH.
A little difference makes a BIG difference ….never more so than when it concerns narcisstic -or, I prefer the term, egocentric- characters clashing with each other. They are matched in terms of their high sensitivity in regards to their own feelings and lack of sensitivity and awareness or regard for the feelings of others.
Narcissism is a hard nut to crack.
Having said that, there IS room for some sympathy for these people ….among whom I have to include to some degree my self (but I believe by now at least that it is to a minor degree – ACCOUNTABILITY and the continued choice to be accountable stands for much ….and I am/was likely to be a neurotic narcissist in the first place).
But these people do deserve SOME sympathy and SOME forgiveness ….however, only a VERY small amount and ONLY from a Distance!!!!
And I agree with Dr Simon’s approach that often many of us, especially if we are the targets (people who a fair percent of the time will more likely be possessed of a little more gentleness which the aggressive narcissist will try to make a weakness rather than see as the strength that it really is …or, conversely, they will try to manipulate the more giving personality into HAVING to be so VERY giving and effectively use the person as their codependent) …but I agree with Dr Simon’s approach because targets often may need help in toughening up and in waking up to how they have been manipulated, including manipulating themself, into either feeling shame for any of their own egocentricity and/or feeling pity for a person who is pretty much pitiless.
Overall, it is a real mess and a massive headache to deal with.
I find my self continuously asked -well, bullied in fact- by family members to take on their own problems whilst often being bullied through rankism.
…One way that I can and WILL sympathise with those who are labelled as narcissistic by others ..as being the BIG narcissist… is that those around them in heated conflict with them (and even the average person a degree of the time) resorts to black and white thinking.
That in fact this is NOT a phenomenon of narcissitic people per se, but of PEOPLE period. It only SHOWS up more with narcissistic personalities for the reason being that they are more sensitive (to themselves only) and therefore more emotionally intense than most people are.
My guess is that sometimes narcissistic conflict is a lesson in the basics of spirituality!
And it would make sense at the very least in the sense that it compels a person to go deeper within, even just for psychological survival.
Narcissistic conflict is psychological warfare, make no mistake.
This is my take on things.
Elisa, what you said about black and white thinking, the discomfort of trying to reconcile two opposing viewpoints, and the need to dispel that discord by choosing one and rejecting the other… that’s what I’ve been reading about on the theory of cognitive dissonance.
There’s a book I really love that explains it so perfectly in a variety of different settings: Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me) ~by Carol Tavris & Elliot Aronson.
It goes along well with what you were saying. I agree completely that rigidity of thought, black and white thinking, all or nothing thinking, magnifying/minimizing issues…these are all thought distortions that contribute to so many problems, including narcissistic thinking. Once we learn to make the mind pliable and flexible, learning to consider many different possibilities instead of dogmatically defending just one, then we stop stunting our brain growth. We become learners. And then we stop seeing people who present conflicting opinions as attackers and enemies, which is how narcissists view people who challenge their narratives and images.
I saw my husband, who was Borderline Personality/Narcissistic, completely change his character to where he can no longer be called that anymore. He had to retrain himself how to think, and step out of that closed circuit pattern of thinking, which was all based on those rigid thought distortions. It’s rare for a Narcissist to recover, but not impossible. I was fortunate to see it happen.
So there is hope. I’m female asperger’s and was on my way to becoming a Vulnerable Narcissist. Once I stopped thinking in black and white the scales fell from my eyes, and I began to heal and recover. My asperger’s symptoms are mostly diminished except for some sensory issues and a bit of brain fog when I’m overwhelmed. But that was a huge lightbulb for me, recognizing that my thinking was rigid and self-limiting, constrained, stunted. A flexible mind is a healthy mind.
Dear Mr, George Simon
,
I am Amir Hossein Mohammadi, a teacher of life skills. I’m trying to help people with my training to experience a better life. I’m specialized in managing anger.
I have read your book, Sheep’s Clothing….. I want to thank you for sharing that book with us. The steps you mentioned in this book to manage anger were very practical.
Currently, I’m writing a book, anger management solution, and it’s about anger management. Abstract of my book is as follows:
“Anger is a feeling in all of the people around world. That can cause aggressive behaviors. If anger is not controlled, it can cause problems, such as the illnesses, loss of a job and relationship. Anger management can improve relationships and then make life better.
By learning the problem-solving skills, the person can manage more comfortable the anger.”
Now, I just wanted to you write a paragraph about anger management and then I publish in my book.
Best regards,
Amir Hossein Mohammadi
Dear Mr, George Simon
,
I am Amir Hossein Mohammadi, a teacher of life skills. I’m trying to help people with my training to experience a better life. I’m specialized in managing anger.
I have read your book, Sheep’s Clothing….. I want to thank you for sharing that book with us. The steps you mentioned in this book to manage anger were very practical.
Currently, I’m writing a book, anger management solution, and it’s about anger management. Abstract of my book is as follows:
“Anger is a feeling in all of the people around world. That can cause aggressive behaviors. If anger is not controlled, it can cause problems, such as the illnesses, loss of a job and relationship. Anger management can improve relationships and then make life better.
By learning the problem-solving skills, the person can manage more comfortable the anger.”
Now, I just wanted to you write a paragraph about anger management and then I publish in my book.
Best regards,
Amir Hossein Mohammadi
Webmaster,
Please remove the email portion of my comment in Deceit Can Take Many Forms. I’d prefer to keep the comment – so the replies can also remain.
Thank you!
What have I been dealing with?
In December 2017 I had an interview via Skype for a job I applied in another country. I was interviewed and I wasn’t offered the job but somehow the person who interviewed me and I started chatting via whatsapp. We were talking quite a lot. After a couple of days, I asked if he was married by any chance to what he said yes. I thought to stop there and then but he went onto say that he wasn’t happy in the marriage, that he felt he had married that person in order to not stay alone and that he didn’t want to spend the next 30 years of his life like this. Married 25 years and 3 children. (10 years back he had moved in with another woman and after 2 months he returned home because of the children). He told me he was falling in love with me, that his heart was mine, that he wanted to live with me, be a couple and that he was serious about me. We continued talking.
Coincidentally, at that same time I was offered another job I had applied for in that same country where he lives and where he is from and I took it. This job was in a city 300 kms away from where he is. He told me things such as – “being without you is not an option”, “I want to replace my current relationship” (with me) and so on. I really believed what he told me. Thing is that after about 2 months he came to visit me one day and told me out of the blue that he was not leaving his family and was staying. Somehow, we continued talking but during the 8 months I was living there he came to see me a total of 5 times for about 12 hours each time. Many times, he wouldn’t reply to my messages on whatsapp, another time I was talking to him and told him that he didn’t seem to have the initiative to call and that I was feeling things had changed. He hung up on me while we were talking and told me he wasn’t wasting his Sunday listening to things like this. He refused to answer my messages for hours on end and never apologised. Then he went onto say that he didn’t do that to people, i.e. hanging up. There were many times I would see him online on messenger and whatsapp but he always denied talking to others. Even at the start I remember twice when he said he was going to sleep at 11 PM and then I would see him online at 1 AM. He would never ask me how my weekends were or what I did despite knowing I was alone in a foreign country and knew no one. One weekend I was sick and he wouldn’t even ask how I was. He said we were not living together and therefore he didn’t have to ask and that he wasn’t my babysitter. If I had a toothache he wouldn’t ask and he would say he is not like that. He always would say he likes me a lot but when I asked what he liked he would say – I will tell you one day or I’d rather tell you what I don’t like because I will finish quicker. Another day I told him I like him and what I liked and when I asked back he said I had described it very well and that he would use exactly my same words.
I stayed there for 8 months and decided to go back to my country and leave everything in November 2018. He told me he was convinced we would see each other again and I didn’t really understand how since I was going back home in a different country. After one month, in December 2018 while we were talking one day he told me that the person who was working at his company, which was the position he initially interviewed me for, was leaving and if I was interested in the job. I didn’t have a job at the time and I said yes so this time at the beginning of January 2019 I moved to the city he lives in and where he works to work with him. I must say that he didn’t promise a relationship but he never told me there would be nothing between us. In fact, I came back and there was something going on between us including sex. He always would say he was staying with his family and that this would stay that way. For 2 months he was nice to me although he barely saw me – just maybe once every two weeks. In the office he flirted with me when people were not around and he looked happy to have me here. We went twice for dinner and the last time he said we could go somewhere the next time. And I travelled back home for a week to get stuff from there and he told me “please, come back”. I asked why he offered me the job and he said that it was better to have me here than back where I lived in my country.
He was with me last time on the 11th of March – sex included. The next day I asked if we could have dinner sometime and he started to be really angry saying we couldn’t have dinner every second day!!! – we had had dinner twice in 3 months. He was talking to me in such an angry state to the point he told me to get off the car and that he was leaving with me or without me in it. I was shaking, in shock not knowing what I had done wrong. The times he would visit me he would spend 1 hour at the most, had sex and soon later out of the door. I felt bad, really bad but kept going.
Out of the blue a few days later after being together and after spending the whole weekend without answering a single message I sent, he tells me he has a crisis at home and that he has to deal with it and follow a certain order but he didn’t want to share details with me. He mentioned something about drugs with his son but my intuition told me there was something else. He told me it was better to distance the situation between us and to be friends. I insisted and he ended up telling me “yes I met someone very recently and it is serious”. I asked “but you were seeing me” and he said “yes, but not at the same level”. Then he goes home at 11 PM on a weekday and tells his wife about this and the next day he travels to meet the new woman. He told me the wife was very shocked and I don’t know what he proposed to her. He is planning to move out now for someone he met days ago when he had always told me he was staying at home and this was not changing.
He refused talking to me, walked out on me every time I wanted to talk, shouted and even at the beginning when he was very nice to me one day, he told me he would like to have me in the basement and he would give me food and drink.
Now I wonder, he always told me he would stay where he is with his family, now he meets someone a few days ago and he leaves when on top of that there are family problems with one of the sons. The other woman married with children too. I don’t know what this has been really and I am leaving this job and country. I can’t work with him anymore and this was a mistake to accept this job. He told me he would hate not to have me in this office because he likes to work with me and have me around.
From my post you may know I am alone in the country I am in, no friends and no family.
I gave this person the resignation letter at the end of March ( although witout signature) that I was leaving at the end of April. He confirmed it in writing, that I would leave end of April. My soul and intuition told me to leave. I could not continue working there. His presence was intoxicating.
I did tell him I dont want to see him ever again either as a partner, friend as he proposed ( only when it suited him as he already had someone new) or as a colleague. I told him all I think of him and how he played with me and used me.
At the beginning of April I go to work and I receive an email from him copying HR and my colleague saying I had to hand in the key today and that my services are no longer needed there although I would get paid for the month of April. I responded by email asking the reason why copying HR and stating that he had confirm my departure as of the end of April. He came to my desk angry and shouted in front of everyone to give the key and leave. I said I wanted a reason. He said he doesn’t have to give me a reason. This with the whole office listening. He switched off my computer and I said I had to close my email. He removed keyboard and mouse aggressively and told me that was the company’ s property. I told him whatever he had to tell me to do it in private. He didn’t. He continued talking to me like this in front of everyone. By the way, I continued to do my job as usual even if I informed I was leaving at the end of the month. I asked for a reason to ask me to leave like this. Next thing was ” I will call the police if you dont go now”. My colleague, clearly supporting him said ” yes, I call them. I got my things and he came to the door holding it for me ( I felt escorted like a criminal and I even felt as he would push me if I didn’t leave quickly. I couldn’t do anything.
He told me at the very start that he would keep me in a basement and give me food and drink. I also asked him what he thought of me and he replied “you are vulnerable”. When we continued talking after telling me he was staying with his family he told me “you take this because it is better than nothing”. When I went to work in January with him I asked him why he offered me the job and he said “it is better to have you here than in your home country”. I went home for a week and he said “please, come back”. When I told him that I was thinking of resigning he said “I would hate not to have you in this office”. I asked why and he said “I like to work with you and having you around”. Yet, he met me maybe a total of 5 times in the 3 months I was there. At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.” And just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”
Please help me with your insight. I am destroyed.
At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.”
Just an example of a convo last year:
Him: I don’t know what’s wrong with you. Why are you always pushing the way you do?
Me: I just dont know why there has to be 0 contact
Me: Not even a text
Him: And I just don’t know why there constantly has to be contact
Me: Constant??. You keep saying you dont have the time
Him: Obviously it’s a big thing if I don’t text one day
Me: No it is not
Him: Glad you agree. So please act like it
Me: But dont tell me it is because you can’t because you can
Him: Ah. So you are the expert and judge now, I see
Me: Well no one is that busy to say ” hi how are you?”
Me: No not expert at all
Him: If that’s what you want why don’t you find somebody who thinks alike? Because it’s not me
Me: I find it difficult to understand how you can spend a day with me, have sex with me and everything else and now a whole weekend without even saying “hi”
I was sick all weekend
Him: just stop pushing me. I really don’t like to see numerous messages whenever I look at the phone.
Me: I didn’t push, I only asked
Him: that is bad, and I feel sorry for you. But there is nothing I can do about it, and we are not living together, so I don’t feel obligated to ask every five minutes how you are
He also asked ” where is the block button on whatsapp to block you? I can’t find it”.
Then on messenger he says: “Can you please tell me how to block somebody on messenger? I never blocked anybody, so I don’t know”
Laura,
I feel for your situation and concerned about you getting out of this unhealthy relationship. I know it can be difficult when we fall in love but many time we fall in love with a lie and dream we have.
I am going to tell you straight out this man has no feelings for you but to use you as a sex object for his convience. First of all he is a married man and committed to another. It is wise never, ever to get involved with a married man. If a married man can cheat on his wife what makes you think he won’t cheat on you.
When you meet a man you need to observe his Character, if he lies, cheats and steals, run as fast as you can. This man is all the above and he will aways be this way and your not the first he has used, yes used this way.
Laura, you are worth far more than the crumbs he is giving you. Get yourself together and go home like you have been talking about. Start a new beginning, give yourself more credit and believe me you will meet the right man.
I would suggest you reading this blog thoroughly, also another good blog, Lady with a Truck. I would also suggest you read Dr. Simons books, In Sheeps Clothing and Charactered Disordered. Another good book is Walking on Eggshells, and several books by and author named Patricia Evans.
I would also suggest and welcome you to post as you will get support and validation of what you are going through. Its hard to break away but when you have others who have gone through situations with the disordered and help support you it will help.
Believe me you deserve a good, honest, kind, decent man. Give yourself more self love and take care of you.
I can only invite you to continue to post and know we will support you.
Hugs Dear One and God Bless
Thing is: Was I dealing with a disordered person? narcissist? sociopath?
Laura,
I think we would need more information. He is definitely a Charactered DIsordered person. He is self soothing and selfish, he comes first above his family. Can you imagine the people in his life who he has harmed for life psychologicaly.
I think above all you need to take of you, learn from it, study it so those needs within will never allow you to be manipulated and used again. Take this bout with life and learn from it, turn it into something good, where you can help other.
I am assuming you are young, at least far younger than me. I know by past experience in my life the only person one can change is ourselves. I know you want to be loved and this person is far beyond loving anyone but himself.
Love yourself enough to say to Laura, “I am worth more than this.” Rise up and believe in you. Only you can do this, it will be painful to give up the past but the rewards at the end of the day will surpass anything you can imagine.
Laura, pleas keep posting, I know we all can be of help to you and just know you are welcomed here. Above all you will learn to know how confusing all this manipulative behavior is, who and what manipulators are.. Trust your gut, not your heart and know one day you will find Mr. Right.
For now you have work to do, all of us have had hard knocks and have learned the hard way. Let this be the beginning of truth, learning about you and your needs, how to deflect individuals who are users and begin the true you, the you who stands up and dosn’t allow someone to harm, hurt or use them. Its all a process, something I am still dealing with.
I look forward to your posts and I know all will welcome you. Just hang in there and take in the knowledge you were unaware of and grow to be a strong and person of character and strength.
Hugs.
I don’t know what you mean by character disordered person. I never heard this term. I think there is quite a lot of information in what I described (not sure) to maybe have an idea what he is. I don’t know myself because I believe I suffer from cognitive dissonance and I am too deep in to know what he was doing. My head spins.
Laura,
This man is a manipulator, a liar, a cheat, a user of others for his own personal gain.
This man cares for no one but himself. He will lie, cheat and say or do anything to get what he wants.
So far he has’t done anything for you except take.
Besides that Laura, this man is someone elses husband and that is something we should never get involved in.
Keep reading this blog and as I suggest order both of Dr. Simons books. You will learn a lot about people who lack any conscience to use others for their personal use and gratification.
Stop worrying about this man, stay away from him and go back home.
Start taking care of you and read, read, read, and educate yourself about manipulators who are charactered disordered. This whole blog relates to people of who have bad character and most of all of Dr. Simons talk about this.
I know this is difficult at first but you will beging to understand how this man is using you, when he is done with you he will toss you aside like his used condom. You are just one of many this man has used this way.
Feel free to keep posting and ask as many questions as you would like and we will try to help you through this. Stay strong and begin by knowing you are a good person and deserve more than this. Stay focused on lifting yourself up and don;t let this man use you anymore. Some day, a truly good man will come into your life and treat you with dignity and respect and will love you.
For now you need to understand what has happened to you, get your head on straight, seek out a counselor if you can afford it and if not seek our a women shelter, they can help you.
If I may ask are you in the States here?
Also, I remember him telling me in the office during my last days there that we couldn’t have a conversation without me being emotional. I mean, I knew there was something else that the supposed problem with his son and drugs, reason why he was asking me to wait and that he hadn’t told me “no” yet and that he hadn’t made a decision about us so not to worry. I even asked him if there was someone else to what he said “what a stupid question! I told you it is a family problem”, but after all I was right. The whole thing was about this new woman and yet he was making me wait, telling me not to work myself up, not to over think while that same day he was travelling to the new one.
I had left everything, I was alone, no friends, nothing and all this in addition, feeling something was not right, him telling me not to worry, yet he knew he was meeting someone and finding out if things with her could go ahead, keeping me in suspense in the meanwhile and still accusing me of being emotional, telling me that it was impossible to have a conversation with me without me being emotional.
What did I have to be then? A brick wall? is that what it suited him? me not being emotional?
Only days later after arriving there to work I told him I wanted to talk (I just read the messages now), that I needed a conversation with him. As usual he told me he couldn’t at that moment, he didn’t want to at that moment. He was going away for a couple of days with work and that is not something I minded at at all. I just wanted to talk to him. He told me that if him going away for a couple of days was a problem, that I should get used to it. This was his reply. That was not my problem. My problem was that I always felt that we couldn’t talk and there was never time for me but his answers were always so sharp. He told me it was getting him angry that I was only there a couple of days and I was complaining. He would always tell me that I over think and overreact.
when I had blocked him last October and after a few minutes he blocked me. Straight away he sent me an email saying “are you angry that I blocked you first before you could block me?”. Right there and then I saw his true colours. I explained to him that I know how the blocking works and that I knew I had blocked him first. Yet, he wanted to convinced me it had been him who did it. Even like that, the first thing that came to my mind is – who cares who blocks first or second? and what is the necessity for you to let me know that you did first? or was he really expressing his own feelings? meaning that he was the angry one because I had blocked him and not the other way around? That time I clearly saw how winning was so imperative for him.
Then one day while exchanging messages in messenger when I wrote to him by mistake he told me in such a cold and calm manner – “how do you block someone here? I have never blocked anyone and I don’t know how”. Then he said “please, block me”. I mean, is this normal? this type of conversation? a 51 year old???
But now he gets divorced to be with this new woman he met so recently. So does he love her? He told his wife about it just after meeting her a couple of times.
just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”
Also, I resigned from the job he offered me (I wrote that on my original post). I was meant to work through out the month of April. At the beginning of April I go to work and I receive an email from him copying HR and my colleague saying I had to hand in the key today and that my services are no longer needed there although I would get paid for the month of April. I responded by email asking the reason why copying HR and stating that he had confirm my departure as of the end of April. He came to my desk angry and shouted in front of everyone to give the key and leave. I said I wanted a reason. He said he doesn’t have to give me a reason. This with the whole office listening. He switched off my computer and I said I had to close my email. He removed keyboard and mouse aggressively and told me that was the company’ s property. I told him whatever he had to tell me to do it in private. He didn’t. He continued talking to me like this in front of everyone. By the way, I continued to do my job as usual even if I informed I was leaving at the end of the month. I asked for a reason to ask me to leave like this. Next thing was ” I will call the police if you dont go now”. My colleague, clearly supporting him said ” yes, I call them. I got my things and he came to the door holding it for me ( I felt escorted like a criminal and I even felt as he would push me if I didn’t leave quickly. I couldn’t do anything.
Laura,
You are going through an extreme emotional trauma caused by this man.
I can only say from the information provided for your personal wellbeing
Stay Away from this man………..
No good will come out of focusing on him, I know it is extremely difficult, but you need to focus in positives ways on you. This man could care less what happens to you, DO NOT let him have power over you and ultimately destroy you.
Above all, you are not alone, you have found Dr. Simons blog who is a loving, caring person. Check out Dr. Simons work, he is know throughout the world. Just know, you have a safe haven here and you have others who care. I care, as I read your story and they are not unlike many posted throughout this blog, just know you are welcomed. We many not answer your post right away but someone will get back to you.
Are you here in the states as that makes a big difference as to when you may have posted.
Above all Laura, take care of you, be kind to yourself and in the end you can take this experience and turn it into good. Yes, its where you learn by your mistakes and help others, you grow and become a better you.
Keep posting, just know I care that you are hurting and will try to help you through this as I am sure others will chime in. Just know you have a safe haven here on Dr. Simons blog.
Hugs and do something nice for yourself today.
I am not in the States. In Europe.
Yes, I am traumatized. I thought it was over in December when I left his country. Ok, we talked on the phone but I knew we would never meet again despite him having said that he new we would meet again. I simply did not know how. Once I was back home, 3 weeks later he offered me the job. He did not only destroy me in a romantic way by going away with a new woman he had just met for who he is leaving his marriage and family when he had always told me that he would not leave, that that was the way it would stay to then see him do it with someone he met recently. So he betrayed me that way when I had always believed him he wouldn’t leave the marriage. Then I felt I had to leave the job too. I could not face working there and see him every day. I took the job because I had no job. I moved country, house and everything to have no one there, no friends, family or anything. Only him I had. I decide to leave and then he does that to me in the office in front of everyone. I had to cross that door feeling like a criminal and I had no one to go to, to cry, to get support. I was there for 3 weeks until I left, all by myself. The company did not support me. They did nothing about it. I was completely alone. Yes, I am traumatized at the whole thing. I am left with nothing, broken and destroyed. Not even an apology.
Laura,
I don’t think you will get an apology from him unless his motive is to string you along and reel you in, this man has no remorse or sincerity in him, nor will he ever….
There is a verse from the Bible which states the Devil is the Father of All Lies. Well you have met a human spawn of the devil. Above all things this man has no doubt cheated on his wife all his life, now he has found a new woman to string along and you are nothing to him unless, like, I said he can gain something from you and these CDN love to inflict pain on others. Don’t be his doormat anymore.
I don’t know how old you are? None of it dosn’t matter anymore, this is past and we are now in the present. I do know this is an open wound, a deep large wound and it will take time to heal. Healing is a process we all go through, you are not alone in this.
Keep posting and write all you want, regurgitate the past experices here and keep going forward. Don’t let this scum bag steal your life, your future happiness and joy from you.
Thank you, now I know the time span is different by many hours. Be patient if I can’t answer as a result of this time difference.
Above all, keep going forward and shine, I know this is a dark time and I do understand the trauma of all this. Just keep posting and know I care as I know others here care about you too.
Laura, in my life I have endured many traumas and what carried me through was prayer and the healing power of Jesus. Truly, I do know what you are going through as many here have too, my heart goes out to you.
Hugs
He would never ask me how I was, what I did during the weekends, how I managed on my own. I had to go to the dentist and days later he didn’t even ask me how I felt. I told him that he didn’t ask and he said “I am not like that”. While I lived in his country from March to November last year (this time I lived 300 Kms away from him) I was sick one weekend. During the weekends he did’t use to text. I told him I was sick and he said “I am sorry but we are not living together and I don’t have to ask you how you are every 5 minutes” (it wasn’t every 5 minutes. He never did at all). I told him that it was impossible that he didn’t even have 5 minutes all weekend to say “hi how are you?”. Then he replied “we have different expectations, I am not like that. You should look for someone else”.
Just a couple of weeks after starting talking to him (March 2018) when everything was really really nice, when he would tell me he wanted to spend time with me every day and so on….he calls me on Skype and at the very end of the conversation I wanted to add something else (can’t remember what it was). Suddenly, I saw a horrible, more than scary face, so angry looking at me intensely saying “how many times I have to tell you I have to go before you let me hang up?”. Things were so nice and I remember this day, the exact place where I was talking to him from and I remember feeling frozen, speechless, I felt something going through my body, an intense horrible feeling, wondering what I had done, the kind of fear that paralyses you, when I couldn’t even hang up as I was frozen. I did not sleep all night. What was this? I mean, it is not only the words I heard but those words matching the face he had on camera.
I did not pay attention to comments like “you are vulnerable” just because I asked what he thought of me or “you take this because it is better than nothing” just because I continued with him (well, and he with me) after telling me he was staying with his family. But when he said he was staying I sent him to hell. He proposed to be friends and I said no. Then I simply ask if we could talk about things. He was over the moon, he told me how happy he was to talk to me again, that he liked me so much, that staying with his family had nothing to do with me and yet, he tells me in my face “you take this because it is better than nothing”. I ignored all this, how? how can this be? Months later and I literally mean months later, suddenly one day his sentence pops up in my mind “I would keep you in a cellar and give you food and drink”. I was scared at myself realising he had told me this and I never paid any attention.
When I accepted the job and went to his country to work he was nice to me, so nice, he looked so happy to have me there, the first two days in the office we were alone and he would hug me and kiss me. Once again I had no one and nothing there. I was completely alone, in a new place, with no friends, a new job and I only had him. So I clang onto him because he was so nice to me and on top of that I was vulnerable there (not my land, no friends, no family, nothing)…..when I arrived he asked me what my family thought of me having accepted the job and moving back to his country after I had just left weeks before. Why did he know and was so sure we would meet again? When I left in November 2018 he told me he was certain we were going to meet again. A few weeks later he told me the same on the phone. I simply thought it was more empty words. And then he gives me the job. When I was with him he said “you see, I told you we would see each other again”.
I am scared, my heart bleeds, I can barely stand, at the moment I can only manage to sleep and eat. He gave me a job when I didn’t have one. I thought that is helping me. I took it because I wanted to. He didn’t force me. I left because I decided too. He told me he didn’t want me to leave and in fact he repeatedly asked me to reconsider and think about it and yet at the same time when I heard those words “I would hate not to have you here because I like to work with you and have you around” I thought – I can’t believe those words, I don’t trust him any more. Initially, I thought “how great!, he really cares and wants me here” but then something inside me told me these were again empty and fake words.
So many times he would tell me he liked me a lot and that he liked spending time with me, yet he barely saw me and met me and when he did it was for a maximum of 2 hours. Where is the liking in there? and spending time with me?
Every time I asked what he liked about me he would tell me “I don’t like to be prompted” or “I will tell you one day” as he did the last time I was with him in March. Another time he said he was going to tell me something about liking me or missing me (an’t remember exactly) and then he said “I won’t tell you now since you brought up the subject). Last August when I was living in a city 300 Kms away from him and after not seeing each other for 3 months (he always said we saw each other as much as possible……every 3 months for a maximum of 24 hours!!) he told me he would visit me on the 15th of August as it was a public holiday. Then he rectified and said he would come on a Friday and that he thought it was better because we would have more time that way (the full weekend) and that way I would be happy. The time approached and he told me he wouldn’t come on Friday as he himself proposed but on Saturday instead making the visit 24 hours or less. I mentioned that he had said he would come on a Friday and he was so angry at me. He said “you know what? next time I won’t tell you when I come, it is better”. I was terrified about the way he was speaking to me. I was only questioning how come he would come on Sat. when he himself changed the trip to Friday to have more time. Every time I questioned when we would meet he would shut me up, didn’t want to answer, would say “we will have to make a plan” but nothing. I always had to ask when. He never ever would tell me that he was looking forward to seeing me or missing me. Even when we were together I remember telling him that I like him or that I miss him and it was always met with silence.
If he was so careless, if he didn’t give a shit about me, I mean – why was he there? why didn’t he end it? why would he tell me he liked me? why??? he was so rough in most of our conversations. The time I told him that he didn’t seem to take the initiative to call he hung up on me. I sent him messages for hours on end and tried calling him. Nothing, just silence till hours and hours later to tell me that he never hangs up on people but that I push his buttons.
He also asked ” where is the block button on whatsapp to block you? I can’t find it”.
Then on messenger he said: “Can you please tell me how to block somebody on messenger? I never blocked anybody, so I don’t know”
I remember once he was making me so anxious because he denied answering my messages that I could barely breath with anxiety. I told him I didn’t feel well, that I couldn’t sleep at night because of what he did. He would meet all I said with silence. All he said is “if I haven’t answered after 10 messages, what makes you think I will answer after 100?”.
I asked him many times why he had told me all the things he told me at the beginning (that he was falling in love, that he wanted to be a serious couple, live with me, etc…..). He never gave me a reason.
Laura,
In regards to your question on Disordered people. Dr. Simon also writes for another source. Hopefully, the link comes through for you.
https://counsellingresource.com/features/2008/09/10/what-is-a-character-disorder/
so what is the person I was with?
Laura,
Again, I don’t know him. He very well could be a psychopath as many kill in other ways, such as your soul. I can only guess at this point and will reiterate, get as far away as possible from him.
Lets keep talking and hopefully make we will help you to understand and make sense of all that has happened to you.
As I said before, don’t be hard on yourself, most of all forgive yourself and be kind to you and then grow from this experience.
Big Hugs
Laura,
I don’t know this individual, I have not talked with him, I only know what you have told me. On this blog you are given the benefit of the doubt.
Many times Charactered Disordered (CD) will tell you who they are, what they plan to do, what they are thinking etc., during conversation. So it is always important to listen closely when you are speaking with someone who is OFF.
Laura said: just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”
No doubt he is telling you who he is, this is just my opinion from dealing with these kind. These type of people are dangerous, give him no information about your discussions here. You cannot change anyone, you can only change yourself.
Now that you know this man is a Charactered Disordered Narcissistic (CDN) and possibly a sociopath, get away from him. Move, cut off all contact and I mean all, if he shows up at your door do not answer and if he persists call the police. These people have no regard for human life, they use and abuse people and then discard them like they spit.
I am not going to mince words here, I want you to open your eyes and take back your power, yourself, the part you gave away, take it back and make a new life somewhere else where you can meet others who will truly care about you.
Again, are you in the states? I ask this as there are resources available to you here which I will recommend.
Take very good care of You…… and a Big Hug
I replied in some other comment above. You need to scroll up or down as they appear in different places. I am not in the States. I am in Europe.
One question when he mentioned “you could be a sociopath trying to kill me while I am peacefully sleeping dreaming of something innocent”. Ok, not only he mentions the word “sociopath”, which I think is quite strong and the conversation doesn’t call for it as he could have just said something like “maybe you steal my money” or “maybe you kill me” but why sociopath??? but also why do much description and detail such as “while I am peacefully sleeping and dreaming of something innocent”????? I told him I did not feel well with the comment and he told me that the term sociopath was too abstract to see it as any other way as a joke.
Also, at the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.” He told me it wasn’t a good feeling to be mistrusted and this is just because I told him that I was scared.
He also told me he would keep me in a cellar and give me food and drink at the start of our conversations (I never paid attention to it till months later). And when I asked what he thought of me he said “vulnerable”. When I continued with him despite telling me he was staying with his family he said “you take this because it is better than nothing”. And I never paid attention to all these comments……
What do all these things suggest about him?
Laura,
This is a sick, twisted individual. He is like the devil that lures you in, seduces you with what he thinks you need to hear in order to gain your trust. Yes, these evil being look for the vulnerable, its our personality type they look for to use and abuse and at times soul murder or physically murder.
Laura, I am more worried about you. Please tell me you are in a safe place far away from him? Have you cut off all communication?
I came back home a week ago. I am in a different country than him now. I could never imagine that he could physically hurt me but then again I never imagined that he would do what he did in the office to me. He was aggressive in front of everyone, he opened my private bag and threw a paper I had just signed in there, removed the computer and keyboard from me, talked to me aggressively, shouting, telling me he did not have to give me a reason as to why I had to go like that. He told me “go or I call the police”. I could not even look at his face. I was so scared. Everyone listening to this too. He held the door for me. I only saw his arms holding the door and I left. I barely managed to pick up my things. First he had sent an email saying I had to hand in the key and go. I replied asking why and next thing he was next to my desk doing all this.
A few days before I had asked him in the car if we could go for dinner some time. Again he was aggressive telling me he could not go for dinner with me every second day (we had had dinner twice in 3 months). He was very angry and it came to a point where I was crying, shaking…didn’t know the reason for his reaction…at one point he said “I am driving away with you or without you in the car”.
One time while he drove me home (he wasn’t annoyed this time) he wanted to drop me off a bit before my house. He said “I will throw you out here”…….I don’t know but the “throw out” comment made me feel strange….do you tell a person that you will throw them out when dropping them off?????
How did I ignore a comment like the one that he would keep me in a cellar and give me food and drink???? only months later I started to think about it. I guess he was talking so nicely to me at the time, telling me he wanted to see me every day, spend time with me, live together as a couple, he said he wanted to get to know me fully, he wanted the complete package, told me that he was falling for me, that his heart was mine, thanked me for being part of this Universe, that he wanted to know my concerns, delights, dreams and fears….even once he asked me what was important for me in life. I told him I would reply and 1 and 1/2 later he was surprised I hadn’t replied yet. He told me he didn’t want to put pressure on me but that he was eager to know…….also I was surprised when all this happened when we hadn’t even met in person yet. He also suddenly one day sent me a photo of the street I live in.
I wish I knew what he is…at least it would ease my pain.
I can’t for one minute stop thinking – he did all this to me because he wasn’t interested in me. Maybe if he had been he would have been a nice person. He made me believe he wanted to leave his family. Even once he said the strange comment “You are a replacement to my current situation” (replacement????). But now he is actually getting divorced for someone he met so recently – does he then care about her? does he love her? he didn’t leave the family for me but he is for her so that must mean something….
Laura,
This man is incapable of loving anyone. If he is leaving his family for someone else it is because she has something he wants. Beside, we know he is a liar, so who really knows the truth.
I just know from my expweiences, this is a dangerous man. He cares for no one but himself and no one knows when a CDN like him will cross the line and physically harm or even murder another for their sick gratification. Just know whatever he said that was off, he was thinking about.
I am hopefully attaching a link to an interview Dr. Simon did with author Sarah Strudwick, all of her books are well written and full of information. I would highly reccommend you watch all of the You tubes by Dr. Simon and his guests. I think in the times you are try to make sense of it all these vidieos will help you.
I have posted on this site for years in the hopes of helping others and this site alone besides all the others I have viewed is the most trustworthy and knowledgeable, full of compassion and people truly helping one another and sharing information.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grXxRRbtZ2A
What do you mean when you say “Just know whatever he said that was off, he was thinking about.”? Why would he tell me just before meeting that I could be a sociopath trying to kill him while he peacefully slept dreaming of something innocent??
I exchanged a couple of emails with his daughter last week. She told me her parents are splitting up right now because of the new woman and she confirmed “getting divorced” so it is true.
Laura,
By saying “off” its an expression of speech that means untrue, confabulated, not the normal way of thinking and so on.
To me the guy is dangerous, he is a user and abuser and many times there may come the instance where the line is crossed and someone may be hurt severly or even murdered.
I feel for his wife and children, however, since I am comunicating with you, you are my concern. I can understand your feelings but in time and time is always different for everyone you will begin to see clearly.
Above all things you need to heal and take care of you. Talking with his family only triangulates a situation. Stop all contact with him and never let anyone of them know where you are. I say this for your safety and well being. I know this will be difficult and will try my best to support you in every way possible, above all you need to pull together the willpower to stop listening to the false images in your mind and think in a positive light.
Start thinking of making your life better, thinking of him right now will tear you apart and this is good advice. Above all things, Do Not get involved with another man at this time, you need this time to heal. In most cases when we do not heal old wounds we will only attract the same thing.
I know how anxious and upset you must be, your insides torn apart and the immense pain, but time and intense true work will help you heal. Believe in you and if you are of a faith trust God and pray. Just take one day at a time, one hour at a time, whatever will work for you.
The more you heal yourself the more you will understand these selfish, evil people.
I give you credit for having the wherewithal to move away. Good for you, now keep going forward. Stop worrying about him or his family, truly they are none of your business and for you to go forward you need to put all of this behind you. If you go back to where you were speaking with his family you only prolong and torrment yourself. This new woman has something he wants and once done with getting what he wants out of her he will move on. He may string her along for a good while, maybe even years, but know this, he will always have other women he is using at the same time.
Laura, I gather you are younger, if I may, can I ask your age? I was assaulted years ago and it consummed my life. Above all, I want to see others rise above and live their lives and not get stuck like me. Right now you are removed from him, cut the cord with any ties from him as they are unholy strings that will keep you attached in an unnatural morbid relationship.
I am glad you feel you can share with me and I am directing you in the best way I know how. Whatever, you reveal no one will look down on you but rather try to guide you on the path to regaining life and freedom. We all have our own journey’s of sadness, despair, loniness and failures, above all, this blog, this resource, is a blessing and so many of us just want to share our gratiutude and knowledge instead of letting others be in darkness.
Hugs, Dear One, Just know you are not alone.
Also, I remember telling me in the office during my last days there that we couldn’t have a conversation without me being emotional. I mean, I knew there was something else that the supposed problem with his son and drugs, reason why he was asking me to wait and that he hadn’t told me “no” yet and that he hadn’t made a decision about us so not to worry. I even asked him if there was someone else to what he said “what a stupid question! I told you it is a family problem”, but after all I was right. The whole thing was about this new woman and yet he was making me wait, telling me not to work myself up, not to over think while that same day he was travelling to the new one.
I had left everything, I was alone, no friends, nothing and all this in addition, feeling something was not right, him telling me not to worry, yet he knew he was meeting someone and finding out if things with her could go ahead, keeping me in suspense in the meanwhile and still accusing me of being emotional, telling me that it was impossible to have a conversation with me without me being emotional.
What did I have to be then? A brick wall? is that what it suited him? me not being emotional?
Only days later after arriving there to work I told him I wanted to talk (I just read the messages now), that I needed a conversation with him. As usual he told me he couldn’t at that moment, he didn’t want to at that moment. He was going away for a couple of days with work and that is not something I minded at at all. I just wanted to talk to him. He told me that if him going away for a couple of days was a problem, that I should get used to it. This was his reply. That was not my problem. My problem was that I always felt that we couldn’t talk and there was never time for me but his answers were always so sharp. He told me it was getting him angry that I was only there a couple of days and I was complaining. He would always tell me that I over think and overreact.
Now, I look back and think of the times he visited me living in the same city. He would stay for 1 hour or 2 at the most. This was maybe every 2 or 3 weeks and when I told him that it was so infrequent after seeing me one day he said “till next time in 3 weeks”. I remember we would have sex and and in an hour or so he would leave. I felt so bad. Then the next day he would tell me “oh why are you always complaining?” “we had a wonderful time yesterday” kind of saying that I only looked at the negative side. I believed him, I thought he really liked me by the way he talked but he didn’t spend quality time with me. Even at times when I asked him if it was just sex he would say really serious “if that is what you think we will stop having sex all together” and even my subconscious would say to him “then there would be nothing left between us”. The last time I was with him and I know now he was involved with the new one already he was with me from 6 to 7 literally. He told me he wouldn’t be with me repeatedly if he didn’t like me. The next day he gave me a lift and he didn’t even give me a kiss or hold my hand, nothing. I couldn’t comprehend how you can be intimate with someone and the next day be cold like ice. I remember holding his hand briefly, me initiating, but there was no reaction back. Then going up the stairs at work I kissed him and he kissed me back but I felt it was forced. The next day he was already shouting at me because I had asked him if we could go for dinner sometime. That day was horrible, I was in tears, shaking, not knowing what I had asked that was so bad. He said “you expect me to go for dinner with you every second day” (we had only gone twice in 3 months). He was so angry, he wanted me to get off the car quickly and he said “I am leaving with you or without you in the car”. I could barely walk home as I was in disbelief. Even before that I had asked the same question about having dinner and he said “I think so”. I was wondering “think so”???
I feel I was gaslighted. I knew deep inside it was not right but he would convince me it was, like having a wonderful time as he called it when all we did is spend 1 hour together. Clearly, that was not a wonderful time for me but I would listen to his words and believe him.
And another question is – has he been doing this with me because he wasn’t interested in me in particular? I can’t imagine for a second that he will be treating the new woman like he was to me. And so then I come to the conclusion that his behaviour is because he was not interested in me.
How do I know if he is just a jerk who wasn’t interested or someone with a personality disorder?
Laura,
I think I have already told you he is extremely charactered disordered. He lie, cheats and steals. He uses women like toilet paper and flushes them. Can you imange the damage he has done to his family. Believe me you are not the only woman he has used.
Laura, you need to stop thinking about all the what ifs with him and start looking within yourself. First of all this man is a married man and until he is divorced he is still married. He is still married with a new girlfriend and you are wondering if he is a jerk.
Anyone that will cheat on another will cheat on you. I would start to look with in and ask myself what drew me to get involved with an individual who lacks character. To me this man is nothing but scum, be glad your done with him and start taking care of yourself.
Start doing the inner work you need to do in order for you not to get drawn into another unhealthy relationship. You can begin by reading the 10 Commandments of Character on this blog written by Dr. Simon. As you begin to do the work and reevaluate yourself you will start to heal.
Laura,
If you go to the Search box at the top of the page and type in the word CHARACTER numerous selections on this topic will open up for you to read.
Also, how can it be? he was seeing me no problem. Then when the new one came into the picture he tells me that what we were having is unhealthy. Still he told me not to work myself up, not to worry because he hadn’t made a decision about us yet, that he hadn’t said no to me so I was happy thinking he just needed a bit of time and I wasn’t out of the picture. Little did I know that this same day he was telling me this he was out to meet the new one.
I spend the weekend sending messages. He did not reply and didn’t read them. I was convinced something was not quite right. I even told him if there was someone else to what he said in an angry tone “I told you I have family problems and you talk about someone else!!!” as if I was crazy. Then when the new woman was secured he tells me “Yes, I met someone very recently and it is serious” so I stopped seeing you when things were mutual. Hello!!!!! he was telling me on a 17th of March and he had slept with me on the 11th!!!!
Yes, so if me getting involved with him while he was married was wrong, then he is right and good with the new one because he is moving out to be with her? So where is the disorder in here?
One cannot say that just because someone married cheats or lies he is disordered. I need to see further than this that he is disordered.
No, I am not saying he is normal at all. I am saying that I find it difficult to know why he is disordered.
And I am saying that being married and cheating does not make someone disordered. I would like to see how he is disordered leaving aside that he is married. Again, being married and cheating is not good or moral or ethical but it does not make a person disordered.
Yes, of course he is married and with the new woman but at least he has taken the right steps – to move out. They will not grant you a divorce over night so if you want to start with someone new what will you do? stay in the marriage for a year at least if not more till a divorce is granted? The minute he met her he communicated it to his wife and also me. As he said, he stopped seeing me once he found out it was mutual between them. This made me think though because it was like he was keeping us all (wife included) only till he would find out if things with the new woman were secure. I am sure if things with her hadn’t worked out on both sides he would have stayed in the marriage and with me.
I wonder how he can be so sure about the new person as he only met her and days/weeks after he told me and his wife? how can you decide to leave a marriage of 26 years because of this? The bad thing is that he was sleeping with me only on the 11th of March when on the 15th he went to meet her. That day he had told me he likes me and that if he didn’t he wouldn’t me with me repeatedly. 4 days later he went to meet the new one (I didn’t know at the time) and only when he found out that things were mutual he got rid of me and informed his wife. He told me how he went home at 11 PM on a Thursday to tell his wife, told me she was shocked and then next day catching a train to see his new love.
You keep saying he is disordered but just because someone lies and cheats does not mean they are disordered (he doesn’t steal). Where is he disordered exactly? So many people lie and cheat and they are not disordered.
Maybe he didn’t have an interest in me and that is why he behaved like that with me. Maybe he can be so nice and loving to the new one.
Laura,
The man is morally bankrupt. He has no compunction who he uses for his gain. I question why you can’t or won’t see it. All of this behavior is wrong, it is wrong to get involved with married individuals.
Right now you need to start thinking of getting your life back together, including your thinking of why you were drawn to a man of this sort in the first place so it dosn’t happen again. This way you will be ready to hopefully find a man of sound character.
People who lie, cheat, steal and so on are CD, they sure aren’t good people one can look up to. But then, society has lost much of the decency it once stood for. In this world today good is evil and evil is good.
Laura,
I am trying to help you and for now I don’t think you are ready to face the truth of the matter. I highly suggest you find yourself a therapist who you can tell all these incidents to that will in the end agree this man is a normal fellow.
I also gave you suggested very knowledgeable authors and links to you tubes and articles to help clear your mind. Until you are willing to do the work to heal it won’t happen.
The guy is a scum bag, he is someones husband and someones parent. Him taking girlfriends is abhorrent and downright sinfully disgusting. Now he has moved on to another woman, she will find out the hard way too.
It is never right to get involved with a married man and I hope for your sake you see that. Start doing the work you need to do on you and stop dwelling on someone that never cared for you. If you think this man is normal I feel sad you have never met a good man.
Laura,
Laura said: ” No, I am not saying he is normal at all. I am saying that I find it difficult to know why he is disordered.
And I am saying that being married and cheating does not make someone disordered. I would like to see how he is disordered leaving aside that he is married. Again, being married and cheating is not good or moral or ethical but it does not make a person disordered.”
Laura, So if you say he is not disordered what do you think he is ??????
Laura, If we go according to what you just said: “Again, being married and cheating is not good or moral or ethical but it does not make a person disordered.”
Alright, I would like you to prove to me it is not disordered. What is it Laura????
He may well be disordered. I am not saying he is not. I am saying I can’t quite see it and was hoping you could point out the reasons why he is, to point out the things that he did or say that makes him disordered.
I want to leave aside the fact that he is married because this is a moral or ethical issue but not one that makes someone disordered. Someone can be married and still have good character and not be disordered even if he cheats. I am just saying that being married and cheating does not make a person disordered. It is other traits that makes him disordered.
I am quite sure he is disordered but if I am suffering cognitive dissonance and can’t see it clearly…that is why I am here.
laura,
I am only going to concentrate on you. You have issues too, otherwise, we would not be having this conversation.
I care about you not him, as far as I am concerned you can pray for him but moreso you need to find you way. I am willing to help as long as you are willing to do the work.
I have lived this, been through this and unless one is willing to take responsibility to “Honestly Change” there are hundreds that are willing, ready, and honestly wanting to have someone help them to make the changes in their lives to go on.
I don’t care two hoots about him and what was, if you are willing then start reading this blog. Read the information I guided you to and apply it to your circumstances and experiences. I don’t do this for the sport, I want to see others grow in truth and knowledge and then in pay forward to those that lifted me up.
By pulling ourselves up we then in turn pay forward lifting another up. If one is unwilling to do the laborious, difficult work there is nothing more for me to do.
I can help if you are only willing to help yourself. Until, you have reached a certain point you can vomit stories till kingdom come and it will not change, change comes in listening, educating yourself and doing the difficult inner work. This is you decision.
I need to see what he is in order to be able to start healing. This is necessary for me
Laura,
To make it simple and not complicated this man is a Loser and User and an Abuser. In simple terms you were the victim, a willing one at that, and a willing victim of an abuser.
Laura,
“This Man USED YOU.” If you don think this is a manipulative and abusive man, then No One can help you until you are willing to accept the truth….
You keep asking questions and want to defend this behavior which is wrong. The right step in change for the good is knowing and acknowledging the ownly person we can change is ourselves.
I have pointed you in directions of notable resources to help you, I don’t believe you have read any of them or listened to information that will help you, You want to hear only that what you want to hear.
Somehow in all this you want to justify a relationship that was wrong from the beginning looking for excuses. Instead, you need to work on you. If you want to work on you I can help, otherwise, I can’t continue a conversation that is going no where.
All the answers you are looking for are in Truth, Honesty, Decency and not ever negotiating for that which is a lie and yes, Sinful.
We reap what we sow….. This man belongs to his family……….
Now clean up you and ask yourself “Why” you would get invovled with a married man????
I am sure if you were the wife, you would feel terrible, truthfully, what do you think this mans wife and children feel.
Laura, we all fall short of the Glory of God, get yourself clean and forget this and and find a relationship that will offer dignity and respect. Everything in your relationship with this man was in darkness. Look for light and thank God you have walked out and have the opportunity to start a new life.
I feel this is victimization and the only thing that you are concerned about is that he was married. I got involved because he did make me believe he was leaving the family and wanted to be with me. That is why. I did not come here to discuss moral, ethical and religion issues. I came to a site like this to discuss narcissism or sociopathy. I did read many many articles on this site and many others but I am not prepared to be victimized and focus the discussion on the fact that he was married. His behaviour and treatment towards me has nothing to do with being married.
As I explained before, a married man can cheat and lie and still that does not make him disordered.
I got involved because he did hook me. Maybe if you understood about sociopaths you would know they do that and they do it very well. The question would be “even if he was separated or divorced, knowing how he behaves and acts, what would he do? what would his behaviour be like?”
I am not prepared to concentrate this conversation around the fact that he was married and therefore be victimized. I am not discussing morals or religion. That is not what I came here fore.
Laura,
The fact that the man is married and cheating and lying and living a lie right there showed his character at the very outset. It was a Red Flag that you could have heeded, yet you didn’t.
The fact that he’s married does matter.
You were hooked, but now you know the truths, and need to do some self work.
And also, if that is the case, if everything is about him being married, then now he is not disordered any more because he moved out and will get a divorce to be with the new one. Therefore, the disorder is gone, right?
Could he be a jerk and not disordered?
Disordered people are jerks.
Laura,
You don’t seem to be listening to a thing that BOTV has said. She has given you good advice yet you continue to play scenarios of everything that has happened between you and this man. You continue to try to figure out why he did what he did.
Plain and simple, he did it. Quit obsessing about this man and go on with your life.
You have got some issues that need to be worked out why you continue to try to prolong a disasterous relationship.
I suggest you seek counseling to discover why you have put yourself into a situation you did with a complete stranger and why you now are not spending your efforts to heal rather than obsess about what this man is up to.
Lucy,
You say : “Laura,
The fact that the man is married and cheating and lying and living a lie right there showed his character at the very outset. It was a Red Flag that you could have heeded, yet you didn’t.
The fact that he’s married does matter.
You were hooked, but now you know the truths, and need to do some self work.”
Ok, so then what he is doing with the new one – and this is because I want to understand if he is showing his character here too…..he meets this new woman and 2 weeks later he tells his wife and me and he moves out and leaves a marriage of 25 years. Is that wrong too?
If a guy who is married 25 years with 3 children just meets you and after 2 weeks he tells you that he is leaving everything to be with you. If that had happened to me, shouldn’t I have been suspicious? Do you leave everything so fast for someone so new??? He is married and so is she but instead of getting to know each other the minute he meets her he leaves everything???? He could have left earlier if he wasn’t happy but he only leaves when a replacement is there. How can you be so sure in order to leave so much for someone you know nothing about??
Laura,
Again, you are trying to figure out why he does what he does. It’s his brain, it’s his life, and you will never know those answers.
He decided he does not want a relationship with you. He’s moved on to the next one.
It’s time for you to focus on your actions and why you do what you do.
If you continue this pattern of obsessing about him, you won’t heal and you won’t live a good, healthy life that you deserve.
Lucy – sorry but what you are saying is not helping me or what I need right now.
He said he would keep you in a basement and would give me food and drink. Days before meeting for the first time he said “you are not shocked at my proposal to meeting” and “you are meeting a stranger, I might have a dark side”. Days before meeting he told me “you could be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”.
Lucy – I disagree with you in that I have to accept he did it because he did it. I believe it is really important to understand what the person was actually doing in order to heal. I have read a very good article in psychopathfree where it is actually stated how before starting to heal it is first important to understand why and what that person was.
Laura,
Lucy, just gave you great advise and reiterated a lot of what I said to you.
I suggested you read both of Dr. Simons books and that of some other authors, I sent links to you tubes which are very reputable.
We all know he has no morale compass, he is a liar, cheater and who knows what else. He has been this way for a long time, you are not the first or last he will exploit, use and abuse.
You can pour all your energy into a relatively short relationship or take this time to make the changes in your life so you aren’t drawn into twisted relationships. I will again direct you to read Dr. Simons articles on the Commandment of Character and start self reflection and change those things within yourself as the only ones we have and control over is ourselves.
It is of utmost importance for you to do your own work and stop worrying about what he and any others he is involved with do. He is no longer part of your life.
Finally, I will suggest again you get a therapist who will work with you and give you the answers you are looking for…….
Laura, BTOV
This is excellent advice.
What is most important, as BOTV, is that you have not wasted years of your life with this man, that you now have the resources to read to gain insight on how this man drew you in, you can learn of the character disorder, as well as many others, and rather than pinpoint everything this man has said and done, you can glean a very in-depth insight into character disorders, many types, not be someone’s victim again, and can spend your time healing and moving.
Please do not dwell too long on this person. The relationship is over, and consider yourself a very lucky person for there not have been further damage, because believe me, they can do a tremendous, insurmountable damage to one’s life if you stick around too long.
Laura,
I agree it is important to understand the character so that you may protect yourself from further injury and to know how to read the warning signs and to heal also.
The man is character disordered. He’s a liar. He lied to gain what he wanted from you, whatever that may be. You don’t have to understand everything about what goes on in his head, but accept the fact he’s manipulated you, toyed with you. You can read topics from this site and get an understanding of his character type.
But you do have to accept these awful things he’d done to you so that you can move on.
I too have been used and abused for several years and now understand his “type”. It will never happen to me again, that’s for sure.
I wish you the best in your recovery.
Lucy and BTOV – yes, but what I can’t wrap my head around is the fact that if this man is disordered, if he lied to me to get what he wanted from me and therefore manipulated me and abused me, if he said strange things to me such as I am vulnerable or would keep me in cellar and give me food and drink and so on….then why and why is he acting normal and not disordered with the new person? why is he having so much decency to be honest to his wife because he told her he is leaving because of the new woman and on the other hand honest and decent to the new woman because he is showing her that he will do anything to be with her (leaving his family ) so that theirs is a relationship and not an affair?
How can a person be disordered, liar, cheater, manipulative, etc with ME but perfectly normal and decent with another?
Laura,
You need to read up on the character disorders in Dr. Simon’s books.
These people are complex and know how to “work” people.
Once you do further reading you will begin to understand.
As you may have read in my post this guy threw me out of the office shouting in front of everyone and humiliating me just after I resigned. A few weeks ago I wrote an email to him and included his daughter telling him he is a nazi (I only copied the daughter in the email but the insult was to him only. I never insulted his daughter). I did this because no one has ever told me anything about this behaviour on that day.
This is what I wrote in my original post:
At the beginning of April I go to work and I receive an email from him copying HR and my colleague saying I had to hand in the key today and that my services are no longer needed there although I would get paid for the month of April. I responded by email asking the reason why copying HR and stating that he had confirm my departure as of the end of April. He came to my desk angry and shouted in front of everyone to give the key and leave. I said I wanted a reason. He said he doesn’t have to give me a reason. This with the whole office listening. He switched off my computer and I said I had to close my email. He removed keyboard and mouse aggressively and told me that was the company’ s property. I told him whatever he had to tell me to do it in private. He didn’t. He continued talking to me like this in front of everyone. By the way, I continued to do my job as usual even if I informed I was leaving at the end of the month. I asked for a reason to ask me to leave like this. Next thing was ” I will call the police if you dont go now.
Today I called him to see if we could talk about things and he said that he is not interested in talking to me and hung up.
Then I received a text saying: “don’t you dare calling again after sending your Nazi email to my daughter or I will nail your dirty hide to the wall” (not sure if he meant head instead of hide).
He told me at the very start that he would keep me in a basement and give me food and drink.
I also asked him what he thought of me and he replied “you are vulnerable”.
When we continued talking after telling me he was staying with his family he told me “you take this because it is better than nothing”.
When I went to work in January with him I asked him why he offered me the job and he said “it is better to have you here than in your home country”. I went home for a week and he said “please, come back”. When I told him that I was thinking of resigning he said “I would hate not to have you in this office”. I asked why and he said “I like to work with you and having you around”. Yet, he met me maybe a total of 5 times in the 3 months I was there.
Just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”
He said: I am a pretty good observer or whatever you want to call it
He said: what is love anyway
At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.” “It is not nice to be mistrusted”
He seemed to be very focused in me trusting him at the start
He said “remember when we first talked about honesty? This is very important to me but it also means I want your trust unless I did something to lose your trust”.
He said “you never know, I might have a dark side!”. This is because I asked him why he had said that I wasn’t shocked when he asked me to meet.
He said “Yet you agree to meet with a stranger for dinner”. “Must be my charms or my good looks”
Hello Dr. Simon,
First of all i wanted to thank you with all my heart for your great work and your contribution to this world. Your words had a huge impact in my life and shifted the perspective that i had on so many levels.
I recently opened a blog and mentioned your books in couple of my articles. I wanted to know if you are ok with that. My blog is called http://www.taketheredpill.net.
I know you are very busy but if you get a few minutes would you be so kind to review and let me know if that looks ok to you? The reason why i wanted to mention your book is that i would like the world to know about it and benefit from the great lessons you teach in it. Of course my blog is small and it reaches a very small audience (mainly friends and family) but if that can help even one person i would feel as all that went through had a bigger meaning (though i am already extremely grateful for the experiences i had in my life).
I hope to hear from you soon.
Thanks!
Daniela
Hello Daniela,
Thanks so much for the kind words. And you have my permission to share my work. To best contact me, however, please use the form at the top of the page. Many times I don’t get notices of any of the comments posted on this page.
Best,
gs
I would like to know if there is a support or where I could consult if I had been manipulated or not as I am losing my confidence and my perception of reality and justice are becoming blurred which is making me suffer. I am also becoming unable to function everyday life. I consulted Dr. Simon but I know he is very busy as a prominent researcher and a clinician. Is it possible to ask help somewhere? I did ask my university’s harassment office but they told me I was the one whom caused the problem. Maybe I have but I have been struggling with agony and this does not disappear. Maybe it is because of my misperception but I would like to clarify if I need to take the responsibility or there are no need for that
hello, I’m from mexico and I fell in love with your books and your relatively new perspective, I’d like to know which books about psychopaths (Especially their manipulation schemes) you would recommend. Many people may say that there are lots of em iin the web but I don’t want to fall again into the trap of the you-manipulator-may be-afraid-deep-down old model. I will appreciate your answer.
Im looking forward to hearing from you dr simon.
thank you
The penultimate read is Robert Hare’s Without Conscience. Another good one is Inside the Criminal Mind by Stanton Samenow. While not all psychopaths are criminals, they make up the largest segment of the recalcitrant criminal population, so it’s still a good read.
gs
Hello dr simon, I have a few questions:
– In your experience have you come up with rules of thumb to quickly spot manipulative people?
– Do you think trying to make such rules of thumb is appropriate?
– Could you suggest the most realistic movies which show manipulative characters in action
– In your opinion What are other good books about psychological manipulation such as yours?
I’m looking forward to hearing from you!
thanks
In one of your YouTube videos, you talked about how CD, manipulative/aggressive persons back the other person down and how decent people sense the aggression/manipulation and instinctively give in….
How do we stop that? How do we strengthen ourselves so we don’t automatically go into the defensive/placating posture and give the CDs whatever they are demanding? I think fear is a healthy thing, but I’m tired of being fearfully backed down, intimidated, and but putty in these aggressives hands. Some people are dangerous and very much criminals and violent and it’s a survival thing, but with others, how does one resist?
It wasn’t clear to me when I read your book when you said you need to correctly label the manipulative persons tactics whether you meant internally or actually calling them out by labeling the behavior out loud to the manipulator. Also are there certain behaviors that should be called out by name and others that are better to simply respond with you’re being manipulative? Thanks.
Absolutely no need to call out a behavior a person knows they’re doing and why they’re doing it.
Happy Birthday Dr. Simon!
Hi, Dr. Simon.
I haven’t read your book “In Sheep’s Clothing” yet but I am planning to in the future. For the meantime can I ask for your advice since I seem to know a person who I think have character disturbance (I watched your interview with Inner Integrity youtube channel). Anyway, I think the guy has character disturbance and has no guilt when he manipulates people into hating me. How do I make people see him for who he is? How do I show or prove that he is actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing?
P.S. I haven’t read your book yet because I have been so preoccupied with dealing with my depression. I think one of the techniques he does is to make sure I am isolated from everybody else so that way telling people to hate me would be easy. How do I prove that he truly is a wolf in sheep’s clothing? What are the actions I should take so he doesn’t ruin my life even further?
Character Matters Topic Request
Hello Dr. Simon. I’m enjoying the Character Matters videos and am looking forward to the time when we can phone in and ask questions.
Can you please talk about adult children who are displaying CD behaviors – like one of their parents – and ways to approach it and how to know when it’s time to let go of the hope that they will grow up.
Her father is aggressive, callous, selfish, manipulative and cheats to get his way, and I believe in a way she decided at one point she needed to be that too to survive. He also planted things in her mind to turn her against me and I’m sure she’s not aware of it. He used her as a pawn to punish me.
I know she is an adult now and is making choices. As a parent it’s horrifying to watch your child go down this path. She is NOT benign. But she does seem to have moments of empathy.
Mindful,
I’d be very interested in the answer to this question too.
Best
Pax.
(sorry, didn’t realize all those went through.)
Please send a copy of your book to sampoverelli@aol.com. Thank you!!
Don’t think it works that way, Samantha! Would be nice though.
Hello Dr Simon. I’ve got to thank u, your work has been helping me to heal after a few relationships with character disturbed people, my own family included. But I’ve still got things to do. I’ve come across some techniques like Internal family system therapy, Emotional freedom technique, Neuro linguistic programming and Eye movement desensitisation and reprocessing. Since I’ve been finding many “articles” published on the internet that I frankly think are categorically rubbish, i want to ask you if you’ve got a trusted scientific source to verify the effectiveness of these so-called therapies.
I’m looking forward to hearing from you. Dr Simon.
thank you in advance.