Malignant Narcissism Goes Beyond Haughtiness

Malignant Narcissism

Malignant narcissism goes beyond mere self-centeredness. It goes beyond feeling special. And it goes beyond feeling superior. Malignant narcissists lack the capacity for empathy and shame. They also know this makes them different from others. But they deeply prize these critical differences. And they hold those not like them in utter disdain. (See also, Malignant Narcissism.)

Most of us have feelings for others. And folks with a conscience get squeamish about doing hurtful things. Moreover, most of us also possess certain weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Malignant narcissists disdain all these qualities. They see them as signs of weakness. And they see them as proof of inferiority. That’s what enables them to feel superior.

Malignant Narcissism – The Core of Psychopathy

Malignant Narcissism lies at the very heart of psychopathy. (Some folks use the term sociopathy.) Psychopaths are nature’s only known intra-species predators. Other creatures will kill their own under certain conditions. However, none wantonly prey on their own. Psychopaths represent the exception. And it’s their malignant narcissism that permits such conduct. (See also: Malignant Narcissism: At the Core of Psychopathy.)

Psychopaths callously, senselessly, and remorselessly use and abuse others. They prey on the sensitivities and vulnerabilities of others. After all, they see these things as weaknesses anyway. Moreover, they see them as signs of inferiority. In their mind this entitles them to prey. So, they prey without compunction on whom they view as inferior. To them, such conduct is like stepping on an ant. We’re talking haughtiness in the extreme.

Deception and Manipulation

Psychopaths con and manipulate adeptly and mercilessly. Moreover, they can make sport of using and abusing. They enjoy “toying” with people. Naturally, they find this easy because they simply don’t care.

In the coming weeks I’ll be talking about the continuum of manipulators. I wrote In Sheep’s Clothing to make folks aware of this continuum. Not all manipulators are psychopaths. But most possess some of their features. And psychopaths are the penultimate manipulators. So, we’ll be talking more about the vast spectrum of manipulative characters.

Tidbits

I’ll be posting more workshop announcements soon. However, there won’t be any scheduled before April, 2018.

Character Matters will not be broadcast live Sunday October 8. Accordingly, no phone calls can be taken. Moreover, it’s possible the program of October 15 will also not be live. I’ll post updated information on that next week.

As always, my sincerest thanks to all who recommend my books and the hundreds of articles on this blog to others.

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184 thoughts on “Malignant Narcissism Goes Beyond Haughtiness

  1. Personality disorders, at least in the DSM, are divided into “clusters” A, B and C, and there is often a lot of crossover between disorders within one cluster. Antisocial personality disorder and borderline personality disorder are both classed in cluster B.

      1. JC – glad to see you back :-

        I hope life is all good for you and the new job going well. JC you are here despite the hardship and horror of your mother’s influence. Use it wisely as a stepping stone to progressing yourself and your own evolution.

        There is a reason for everything, some things just don’t make sense initially. In the end when you grasp it you will end up sailing through and you have a lot of support in abundance. You will also find from time to time you get a black fly in your Chardonay. Just pluck it out, bless it for the experience and keep journeying my friend. You will soon realise the light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train.

        Bright blessings JC good to see you.

      2. JC,

        It is best to make peace with those thoughts JC. At one time I was angry with God and asked him why He allowed me to be born. Coming from a bad place it is difficult at times to see any good in it. Many times we have to take a hard look and decide to take the risk and opportunity to rise above the pain and misery to new heights and become the best person we can be.

        As for all of us here, we are glad you are part of our group and hopefully you be able to help us too. I am happy you are doing so well.

    1. I love Jung, that is really powerful Joey. Beyond apropos.

      An emphasis on personal choice and accountability have given way to trying to explain, blame, and rationalize the sick, selfish, sadistic actions of the wolves among us.

      They do it because they can. Because they want to. They’re not wounded. They’re not triggered. They are pleased with the chaos and suffering they inflict.
      They like who they are.

      The focusing on why, with our limited perspective takes so much energy. Energy that would be better spent on the victims. Their needs and their families’ needs are rarely considered as vigorously as the monster’s backstory.

      1. “They do it because they can. Because they want to.”
        Simple.

        Book is great. Blog is great. Good solid first dose. Good eye opener.
        Having understanding is good, but building expertise requires long training. It is hard to unlearn decades of training in short time. Such comments are the reason that help me in keeping my thinking straight in past 2 years.
        One also develops better understanding of corollary… I do it because I can, because I want to.

        Of course, one need to keep in mind that a minority of people do have genuine problems and they need others help to manage their problem.

    2. To All and especially Joey, Linda and Andy,
      Healing can be so incredibly difficult, I found this site and it had so many pertinent processes to use in healing. I hope this is of help to others.
      Hugs and many blessings, your all so awesome, and you too, our fearless leader! Simon Says (smile)

      Leo Babauta – Zen Habits

      One of my favorites from the Zen Habits archives:

      ‘What saves a man is to take a step. Then another step.’ ~C. S. Lewis
      By Leo Babauta

      Changing your life can seem an incredibly tough and complicated thing, especially if you’ve failed a great number of times (like I did), found it too hard, and resigned yourself to not changing.

      But I found a way to change.

      And I’m not any better than anyone else, not more disciplined, not more motivated. I just learned a few simple principles that changed my life.

      I’ve written about them many times, but realized they’re spread out all over the site.

      Here is how I changed my life, in a nutshell.

      tl;dr The four lines you’re looking for are at the bottom.

      How I Started Running

      In 2005 I was sedentary, and couldn’t for the life of me figure out how to make exercise a regular habit. At the end of 2006, not only was I running very regularly, I finished my first marathon. These days I can run a half marathon race at the drop of a hat, have run several marathons.

      How did I do it? I started with just 10 minutes of running a day. I focused not on how hard it was, but how much I enjoyed the movement and the outdoors. I increased slowly, until I could run 15 minutes, then 20, and later a couple hours. I was grateful for every run I was able to take.

      I got healthier, fitter, slimmer, happier.

      How I Started Eating Healthier

      In 2005 I was overweight, and addicted to junk food. I ate fast food, chips and cookies, fried meats, anything fatty or sweet or salty … and I had no idea how to change. Today, I am 70 lbs. lighter, I eat almost all whole, real foods (almost nothing processed), I eat a sweet treat now and then but am happier eating healthy food.

      How did I change? I started with small changes like drinking more water, eating more fruits and veggies, cooking at home more and preparing my lunches for work. One at a time. I gradually improved my diet, eventually cleared my fridge and pantry of junk, and stopped going to fast food places. I found healthy foods I really loved. I was grateful for every delicious healthy meal I ate.

      I felt better about myself, trimmed down, and feel great every single day.

      How I Got Out of Debt

      In 2005, I was way over my head in debt — it was so bad, I had creditors calling me, and I would ignore my phone calls. I struggled to make it paycheck to paycheck, and sometimes didn’t even make it — I had to borrow money from friends and family. It was one of the most stressful times of my life. At the end of 2007, I celebrated with my wife Eva when we paid off our last debt and were free!

      How did I do it? I started one little change at a time: I started cutting back on expenses a little, saving a little at a time, paying off the little debts and then the bigger debts, found some breathing room, and saw the light at the end of the tunnel. I gradually changed my financial habits and got into better shape. I was grateful for every debt paid off, every dollar saved, every inch of breathing room.

      I’m debt free and will never go back. It’s the most liberating thing ever.

      And On and On

      I was planning on writing the same capsules for how I decluttered and simplified my possessesions, how I started focusing and accomplishing more, how I turned my passion into a living, and so on … but the truth is, the story starts to repeat itself.

      I used the same principles, over and over. More on that in the nutshell below.

      And Then I Gave Up Goals

      About two years ago, I started to give up goals. Just as an experiment.

      It turns out, I could still accomplish the same kinds of things, but I just didn’t plan it out. Instead, I just followed the same principles (more on those below). They still work, even without goals.

      People say I can give up goals because I’ve already accomplished a lot … but the truth is, I can give up goals because I have learned a few things that work, and realized they work with or without goals. And if you follow these things, you can change your life, with or without goals.

      The Nutshell Principles

      So what are the principles that changed my life, repeatedly?

      If you read the brief stories above, you already know:

      1. Start very small.
      2. Do only one change at a time.
      3. Be present and enjoy the activity (don’t focus on results).
      4. Be grateful for every step you take.

      In programming, this is called an algorithm. It’s a series of steps that you can apply to make any change, no matter what your situation.

      It works. This is the Zen Habits method, the Change Your Life App, in four lines. I hope it helps.

      1. BOTV
        Now that I have a clear understanding of what happened to me, “how I got here” this article and site and ones similar are what I now need to make real changes, important changes, to benefit my body and soul. I feel like my soul had been kidnapped for decades. It’s time for peace of mind and healthy choices. Thank you!

      2. That helped me, reading about your changes in small steps, the CS Lewis quotation. I have always been sporty , a healthy eater and not in debt, but I have just stepped out of a black hole of 6 years’ spent in an abusive relationship with a narcissist and everything feels very frozen at this pivotal time. I am not enjoying being alive because every day I feel deep emotional pain and loneliness inside. I have my life to re-arrange completely. I feel healthy connection to some friends, to kindred spirits so to speak, but still immensely lonely and dismayed and often angry and frightened. I’d love to do so many things, ideally with a partner, before I die. I have asked people for support, e.g. from the marriage guidance center in seattle, over Skype.I wish to enjoy life, as much as possible, despite everything and identify with the attitude of gratitude that you express. It’s just difficult being so alone. Your message was kind in its intent to support. Well done and thank you.

  2. My Words for life

    Incy Wincy spider climbing up the spout
    Down came the rain and washed the spider out
    Out came the sunshine and dried up all the rain
    And Incy Wincy spider climbed up the spout again.

    My philosophy is called Fcuk E’m

    FCUK it It An’nt my fault it rained. Up that spout I go again and again and again and…………….

    And Dr Simon helped me see this” It An’nt my fault it rained”

      1. You are dealing with Lying and Manipulative people. And They Choose to behave in that way, You find this out many years later, Much to your own costs. Why would that be Your Fault. It is not and never has been. They go to unbeliveable lengths to hide their behaviour, because the are cowards.

  3. I am starting from the bottom too. Ironic that I used the word bottom, I will get to that, but began working around 30 hours per week-doubling my income (on a disability), and I am already getting into a 2 bedroom, looking at going back to get my MS and then a PhD. When I do. 🙂 But none of this happened until I worked a program, found the biggest source of resentments and well, cut off ties. It was then that the negative input stopped, my own unconscious decision, or choices, whatever you want to put it, stopped-was when I told her “Go hire a psychiatrist for your own mental problems,” and it was done. That was when I began to be able to return to living my own life.

    What the CDN said to me, and when I was staying in a homeless shelter (on nutiriton support, enteral not IV), was “I hope you hit ROCK BOTTOM.” I don’t know how much more bottoms I can hit with that kind of person in my life, or just how much worse SHE wants it to be, but I am not going to hang around and find out. Other things have included that I should “go volunteer,” (I am doing that too, Big Sisters and through NAMI on the mental health diet/nutrition, because this is my passion and what I am going back to school to become).

    I think that every Nacrissist is also a bit of a psychopath, due to the lack of concern for anyone else’s welfare-it depents I think on how far they carry it, but the one thing that doesn’t get looked at, is who they are victimizing and how they are doing it. My mother rarely has laid a hand on me, as a kid (as an adult, she isn’t that foolish), but she never had to. There are those that do take it a couple steps too far, Bundy and the like, because not only do they cross that line (dead) but they also use gaslighting to do it. Those are people for which the sate I currently live in has no death penalty.

    Not everyone is going to agree-in my opinion, they need to reinstate it. If for any other reason than for some, like those who do rape and murder, there is absolutely no way you can change it, they have no interest in it.

    1. There is the quote (of myself, but not to be a narc myself), if “I must punish myself for YOUR shortcomings, no, you must go fcuk off.”

      Two very powerful words once they are finally spoken (to one who so richly deserves to hear them). My life has done a total 180 since that time.

      Sad, she will die alone-and I can think of nothing worse than that, but being a narc? She doesn’t care.

      1. JC
        Glad to see you are doing so well. You made me laugh.
        And you know I think you’re right about the part dying alone. I don’t think they care. They seem to hate everyone anyway.

  4. To note-she is leaving me $10,000 in life insurance. But due to my mental incompetence, is leaving my older brother in charge of it (and as she says WHEN I DIE, she can leave anyone in charge of her estate that she wants to). He doesn’t seem to think much more highly of me than she does. But this is not appropriate because it puts him in the role of parent, and continues the sick cycle-the insidious way she turned me against my father too. My brother is so wrapped up in success that he is terrified of failure, and also, of disappointing someone (a lot of it, probably is her too, but himself of course).

    She can put anyone she wants in charge of her money, and I am also under no obligation whatsoever to take it (with those terms, h*** no, my inheritance is not contingent on my incompetence), I have more self respect now than that.

    Talk about toxic. I don’t know that psychopath I terms of the traditional terminology such as when you are listening to a course in criminal justice, but pretty much this is the case.

    Her poor husband. Sounds bad, but she says, “Oh, too much pain medicine (any is too much, right?), but I take him to pain management because some people can handle pain and others can’t.” You take mental health meds to put up with these people, and wow, I guess he needs his medicine. But I could not help myself, I did tell her that it wasn’t technically a pain med (not an opiate, at least, no), but that it was a mental health medication (left out the part of it being used commonly in chronic pain-nerve pain, and not the kind of nerve pain that she dishes out). Checking out so you don’t give a rip. Wow.

    1. Wow indeed.

      Someone I love deeply once came at me full of bile, blame and anger. Spitting seething hatred and resentment for me and even my God. Judging me constantly from his high vantage point, blind to anything but his victimhood and unmet “needs”. For the 100th time.

      The drug enamored entitled young man said to me, “I hope you die alone”.

      That’s a thing now? Wishing your “toxic” mother to die alone? How very weak. In terms of character. Heart. Decency even.

      I said I hoped he died a very old man surrounded by people he loved, with some beautiful stories in his rearview.

      That day, I lost any desire to further participate in his chaos.

      I realized his soul, maturity, potential and intellect were stunted. Substance abuse, self-absorption, and poor choices have limited his character development. I will always be the enemy in his twisted perspective. He is no different than anyone in any rehab or prison embracing their conjured victimhood. His inheritance (that he is always concerned about) can be the money he stole from me (that he rationalizes or denies).

      I see things as they are and the pain has gone away.

      Character development is an inside job. I wish him a meaningful life.

      I’d prefer to die alone than in his company.

      My job is done. My life is good. I leave him to God.

      1. I never said I hoped she would die alone.

        “Sad, she will die alone-and I can think of nothing worse than that…”

        I really can’t think of anything worse. And its sad because she really doesn’t seem to care.

        1. Well then, will you be there when she dies?

          If you can’t think of anything worse, will you make sure she’s not alone?

          What will your mother miss about you?

          What kind of adult son or daughter are you?

          Anyone proud of telling their parent to f*ck off or comfortable with them dying alone should study Dr. Simon’s books. Perhaps explore some material on emotional maturity, blame gaming, and a Higher Power.

          Dying alone is more peaceful and preferable to dying in the company of people that don’t love you, but are pondering their inheritance.

          1. If I felt she wanted me there, it does not appear she does.

            The difference between us? If presented with certain evidence, I will always be willing to consider revising my opinion.

            When someone has spent the better part of my life going so far as to tell a doctor to give me an antipsychotic while I am unconscious?

            I have learned I can do nothing about her stuff, only my own.

            If she wanted me there? When I see it, I will believe it.

          2. JC,

            Your mother isn’t dying. is she? Then why not let it go and take all this unnecessary thought and energy into working on making yourself whole.

  5. Aishit, JC,

    I believe in the end we basically all die alone, just as we come into this world alone. I think being the Empath, CD, MNSP, we all die alone and that aloneness is something we deal with inside ourselves. Knowing we have someone next to us, holding our hand that loves us does I believe make the passing easier and relieves a lot of the fear for most. We have a fairly good idea, many times what another may think and feel. But do we ever really know 100%. No, I don’t think so.

    My father was a MN and an alcoholic, in my life he left me with very few happy memories and yes, I was glad when he passed on, in that I didn’t have to hear his ugly hateful voice anymore. I mourned for what could had been, the inkling dream to have been loved. I felt no bitterness or contempt, rather a sadness and at the same time a satisfaction knowing I did the right thing.

    The last year of his life, he was housebound and out of eight children everyone of them hadn’t talked to him in years. I personally thought this was wrong, I don’t feel anyone should ever be left to die alone, especially my parents, regardless. If the others showed up fine, but at least someone should be there. I would do this for a dying person off the streets if someone told me they had no one.

    This sick man in heart, mind and soul was alone except for the pastor and his wife of a small rural church. I spent the last year of his life taking care of him, this crabby, hateful old man whom at times could sparingly laugh in a normal way. Yes, he was disgusting and I told him so, all the hurtful things he had done and yes I forgave him.

    When he died the other siblings showed up to see what they could get, how pathetic. I am glad I spent the last year with him, I learned a lot about the thinking processes of the CD and I also learned things about him no others know. In my heart, and who I am, I did not have that inhuman feeling of watching him die alone.

    Regardless, this man gave me life, it helped me to take something negative and turn it into a positive. He did thank me for caring in the capacity he was capable of, and I accepted that gratitude. You see, my children are of this world and very selfish, they feel entitled, like Dr. Simon talks about what has infected our world today. I am prepared to die alone, and that is OK. What has taken their place is I find comfort in Jesus and for me that is enough.

    I would suggest for anyone in this position to think deeply on this, because once your parent dies you will not have a second chance to say goodbye, or say I loved you regardless, of how they felt. This is very much about you and a possible obstacle that may never let you fully heal. You may be the humble one in all this, but in the end you will be the winner. It takes courage and character to face this challenge.

    In my humble opinion.

    I may well die alone, without my children and that is OK, I do feel strongly that w

  6. The thingsvthat occur to me are this:

    1. I cant save her-she has to do that.
    2. If she wanted me there, to be present when she dies (we all do) yes, I would do it-if I were asked. If not? I guess if my brother asked me to take care of her, probably.

    Her conditions of my mental incompetence, if that is the condition, I can’t do it. My own short coming.

    I have compassion for her-and what created her psychologically.

    I also get to show myself some compassion. It may not look or sound that way-but her issues? I am powerless.

    1. JC

      Your relationships are sacred and nobody, brother or otherwise has any right to tell you how to deal with your relationship with your mother. Your healing journey is your own and nobody can tell you how to do that – there are no rules and regulations regarding how somebody chooses to heal.

      Go with whatever your heart indicates and whatever you will feel at peace with. Let nobody tell you otherwise or try to put you on a guilt trip. Just because somebody demands you jump under a bus in order to please them is not doing yourself any favors.

      The NC rule is in place for a reason and that is to protect the abusee from the abuser. You have no obligations upon yourself unless you deem it so and allow nobody to cast a judgement on you because of what feels right in your own heart that just so happens to collide with theirs.

      Go with your heart.

      1. There is so much more to our relationships than what we post here. We try to hit the high points. Can you imagine how much I’d have to say about a 25 year marriage? Our relationships are complex and at times hard to explain and understand. There are various ways one can decipher and make a conclusion as to someone else’s predicament. We are only getting the “tip of the iceberg” via comments here. And sometimes we aren’t as eloquent in our comment as we’d like to be. I am amazed at how eloquent so many of the posts are here.
        Sometimes while reading another’s post I’m confused at the point that he/she is trying to put out there.
        So yes we all have our way of finding peace. NC is is for me. I know the SB has a hatred for me. He’s used me as his scapegoat. That’s his problem. It’s a sick and unhealthy way of dealing – for him – that’s all on him.
        It’s a long journey to find the peace and figure out how to best deal – or not deal – with a CD.

  7. One important thing that I’ve learned here in how to deal with manipulators, liars, cons. How to stop the circular nonsensical conversation.
    Example: Last week I had a con person text me regarding a saddle I’m selling. At the get-go I had bad vibes. But I didn’t call him/her out on it. A few more texts and the vibes worsened. After a week of this I decided to hammer him. I asked a question. He did not answer it. I asked it three times in a row. (this I learned here on this site).Still would not answer. I asked one more question. Non responsive. So I called him out on it, said deal is off, and as Joey would say “F– Off”. Then blocked him. Here again, I could have should have called him out on it sooner. I’m going to hone my skills.

    1. Lucy, calling someone out on their behavior is something I’ve picked up on from this forum. Instead of getting on the hamster wheel and going over and over it in my head I confront either in the moment or shortly thereafter. I also don’t feel that I’m quick on my feet when I’m in the moment and it has helped me to confront by email or letter. In your case this was a complete stranger and you had red flags and it will get easier and easier to react and know you did the right thing. I like to begin “could you please help me understand……..”

      Just an aside, I was selling a stove once and this guy phoned a couple of times to inquire about it and the second time he wanted me to describe my feet because he said “I’m writing a book and I’m stuck about this particular part of a woman’s body.” I told him “I lost all my toes due to frostbite” and then let the pause take over. He hung up. Man there are some lulu birds out there.

      1. Sydney,
        I like that “could you please help me understand ….”
        I start out cordial but once I know I’m being played, I get down to business.
        There are some sick people out there who enjoy making trouble, no doubt.

          1. Ha ha ha ha !! That’s too funny. Not saying it’s funny to lose body parts but I can just imagine how you ruined that guy’s strange fantasy at the moment. Serves him right!

    2. Lucy,

      I had a guy contact me via flatmates when I had downstairs available for rent. He texted me and asked for my address and told me he was on his way and wanted to inspect it – he didn’t ask if it was still available. I asked him a few questions via text that he wouldn’t answer directly so I texted him back and told him he best find somewhere else. He persisted and I just deleted his txts without reading them. By that stage I’d heard enough.

      If a person can’t answer a direct question then I don’t have time to talk to them let alone let them come to my house LOL – for any reason.

  8. I had an obscene phone call many years ago. I burst out laughing and told the guy I was watching a movie and didn’t want to miss the ending and he should call back in an hour.

    My mother was sitting right there and horrified, thinking I was right out of my mind. Of course the guy was trying to scare me half to death and didn’t expect me to burst out laughing and ask him to call back, for comic relief.

    Of course he didn’t call back. LOL.

    1. My sister had a caller asking for “donation” and she went into a banter about how badly she needed money, would he give her some.

    1. No right now, not. But conncern for Irma.

      She uses her age even to manipulate: WHEN I DIE….”

      I can’t listen anymore. IMO?

      She hates being a mother.

  9. JC

    Some people aren’t fit to be parents period, not particularly due to any fault of their own. However, some are and that’s the way it is. Don’t let other people’s judgements cloud your own heart felt choices or dictate to you how you grieve for a loss. Grieving occurs when relationships end just as it does when someone dies. It’s the same process and it doesn’t conform to a specific order.

    If another person family or otherwise doesn’t like the way you grieve or how you are handling your abuser then that’s their problem not yours. If people are going to criticize or judge you for whatever you say or do particularly when they know what you have gone through – then they are of no useful support to you and you don’t need to listen to their unhealed parts. Hurt people hurt people.

    The only safe way for anybody to ever deal with their former abusers is when they are whole and healed and definitely not before. That way they can’t hurt you anymore, no matter what. When you are whole and healed nobody can hurt you anymore.

    1. People who want to hurt people, hurt people.

      People choose their actions.

      Genuinely hurt people don’t seek to hurt others. They look for healing.

      Not inheritance. If you’re genuinely needing to sever all relations, inheritance is not something you’d require.

      If your mom knows you’re mentally incompetent and a substance abuser, leaving money to you with someone responsible to look out for your best interests is a loving and wise choice.

      Most substance abusers make their family the enemy and also feel entitled to their family’s assets. Being whole and healed happens when “stinking thinkin” is replaced with introspection.

  10. Ashiteru,

    I don’t know of all of your comments are directed at JC, or not. Like Lucy said, we are getting the tip of the iceberg and sometimes that tip is jagged and its points a bit indecipherable, as well.

    If your experiences with your son have been recent it is completely understandable that you will generalize from your own experience to others experiences — and nobody should fault you for it (because we all do it.) I just want to draw your attention to it, that’s all.

    There is nothing to indicate that JC is or has ever been a substance abuser.

    What you have gone through with your son is awful and you have my deepest sympathies. I can think of nothing worse.

    1. Lisa,
      When I hear mention of rock bottom, working a program, mental disability and homelessness- I believe substance abuse is a natural conclusion. That is based on life, family and career experience. I hear JC, and wish him/her and their family peace and wholeness, but this has more to do with the staggering increase I see in people suffering. Suffering due to a decline of character, accountability and societal values. An increase in disconnection, and materialism has left emptiness behind. That has seemingly been filled with substance abuse and all the suffering/chaos it brings. Of course my family has been affected, most everyone’s has. It is epidemic.

      This is, after all, a forum on character disturbance, and I think everyone’s view/experience has value. Being questioned and replied to by others is expected when communication flows. I value diverse discourse. I love people and love learning from them. Our differences and imperfections are just opportunities. We are just a micro set of the human zoo in all it’s glory and terror. Let’s get real and talk this stuff out. Before we fade and die. Alone or with God? Each to his own. I’ll take God.

      Thank you for your kind words. There are far worse things than being the mother of an addict.
      Imagine being their child.

      1. Aishiteru

        “When I hear mention of rock bottom, working a program, mental disability and homelessness- I believe substance abuse is a natural conclusion”

        There is nothing unambiguous in that comment. Lisa was very diplomatic but I am going to be less so.

        You say you hear JC? Well it would appear by your above comment you have not heard nearly or remotely enough and have jumped to a foregone conclusion which amounts to nothing more than a judgment on your part. You have now just shot another poison arrow into JC who is here trying to recover from an abusive relationship with her mother and doing quite well. Does this for some reason disturb you? I can only imagine what it would be like to have a narc mother and JC is quite entitled to vent and shed without being judged for it.

        Many of us who have found our way to this forum have and do not agree on everything and all topics from time to time. Abuse by proxy is something each of us have experienced here.

        For future reference – one of the preferred methods of CD abuse is called gaslighting – this is a basket of strategies used by CD against their targets. JCs mother alleged she was this and that – ALLEGED being the operative word, it was an allegation used against her nothing more. Is far from a foregone conclusion.

        Flying monkey attacks are also used in the gaslighting riposte. It is when ill informed or deliberately misinformed people are either recruited by or side with the abuser and continue with the allegations as if they are a foregone conclusion hence sliming and smearing the target further. It’s abuse by proxy. I know how this goes being on the receiving end of several.

        Hurt people hurt people period. Casting aspersions onto another particularly in lieu of sufficient evidence is called smearing. This hurts people.

    2. LisaO

      There is nothing whatsoever to indicate JC is a substance abuser. JC’s story, however, is consistent with narcissistic abuse patterns including allegations, slander, lies and smear campaigns and the like of which we are all none too familiar with.

      If my family had their way I’d be in a 12 Step Program too no doubt. I don’t know of one person who hasn’t been accused of either being an alcoholic or a drug addict or both by their abuser/s. It appears to be a favored allegation by all narcissists not to mention crazy. “Crazy drug f^^&*d alcoholic” comes to mind. We’ve all been tarred and slandered by CD filth.

      Anybody who has been on the receiving end of a malicious slanderer knows the end result. I am certain beyond any doubt that a great deal of suicides are a result of prolonged narcissistic abuse.

      It is becoming a very well known and established fact that compounded narc abuse can and often does result in Compound PTST and HPA Axis Dysregulation = adrenal arrest and it is highly likely it’s what JC was hosptilazed from, however, thanks to Mommy it would not have been accurately diagnosed. Her electrolytes where shot. I had the same except mine was hyperkalemia extremely low potassium count. I think JCs was hypokalemia too high. It is a very serious condition and can be fatal. When your electrolytes are out of whack you are in big trouble.

      Both Joey and JC have been through hell thanks to narc mothers in Joey’s instance it was mother & grandmother a double whammy. I can only imagine the abject horror of having a narc mother. It’s bad enough having a narc daughter who I am quite confident at this point in time is full blown NSpath. Thank God my son is the exact opposite and also NC with her. She failed in her mission to mould me into Doris Day.

      I have only this to say – Que Sera Sera.

      1. Really knowing anyone else’s motivations or inner workings is impossible. Projection and conjecture can feel damn good in the moment. Or even for a lifetime. It is meaningless. It won’t heal you. I think peace can be found when we understand our own beliefs, motivations and shortcomings. That’s where the real work begins. IMHO. YMMV.

        I think the label “narc” is thrown about of late, and not by many clinicians with the clarity of experience. They would evaluate an entire family system at length before rendering a diagnosis (as detailed in Dr. Simon’s books). A true narcissist would never suggest you get treatment, help others, or give you an inheritance with protective measures in place.

        When electrolytes are askew, that can be life threatening. Rarely happens even in people with chronic adrenal insufficiency, which takes time to escalate to adrenal failure (a problem for the elderly). It is due to nutritional and hydration needs not being met. A self-care deficit. If one can eat and drink, the question is why aren’t they? Electrolyte imbalance is also common with drug and alcohol abuse, and down the line liver and kidney failure.

        I would venture to say such deficits have a real impact on cognition and judgement. I hope if you are a medical professional, you take time away from practicing to restore yourself and protect those you serve.

        If you’re throwing about labels and diagnoses without experience or credentials, well then, take care of you. A little knowledge can be dangerous, no?

        I’ve really enjoyed Dr. Jordan Peterson’s (of Toronto) musings lately. He speaks to the ways to sort ourselves out, the dangers of anger and resentment, and just he has a beautiful mind. Deep stuff to make you think. If that’s your thing.

        1. “When I hear mention of rock bottom, working a program, mental disability and homelessness- I believe substance abuse is a natural conclusion”

          “If your mom knows you’re mentally incompetent and a substance abuser, leaving money to you with someone responsible to look out for your best interests is a loving and wise choice.

          Most substance abusers make their family the enemy and also feel entitled to their family’s assets. Being whole and healed happens when “stinking thinkin” is replaced with introspection”.

          You overstepped a line here – your comments in relation to JC are highly inappropriate to say the very least and I will state unequivocally – it’s abuse. Whether you are aware of it or not. It is what it is.

          Many victims of CD can inadvertently fall into tactics favored by manipulators – they do this unknowingly but others do it knowingly.

          You blow in here and start casting aspersions within a relatively short time frame honing in on JC – how dare you make insinuations and allegations against a fellow narc abuse survivor. Maybe you have a bee in your bonnet because your son is a substance abuser. That’s unfortunate but does not give you the God given right to cast aspersions on others (particularly those fresh out of wounding and physical crisis) based on nothing other than a “natural conclusion” you have drawn yourself. It shows a distinct lack of empathy and tells me you have not been on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse. Because if you had you would not be making these type of comments having experienced the pain of being on the other end of them.

          I totally agree with your comment though about Dr Simmons books therefore, you should be completely familiar with Diversion and Evasion tactics used by CD. I am (page 187) specifically.

          I am going to state this again without ambiguity or flowery words JC’s relationship with her mother is her business and you have no right blowing in here making accusations, allegations and/or insinuations based on what you term “a natural conclusion”

          Go read Dr Gabor Mate’s book In The Ream of the Hungry Ghosts and gain some real insight into addiction and the psychology and neurology of what is behind it. According to Mate most hard core substance abusers come from broken homes with narcissistic parent/s or devoid of adequate emotional nurturance.

          You can cast as many aspersions onto me as you like because I don’t give a f*** I’ll just laugh at you. But what I wont stand for are people picking on and targeting others (particularly others fresh out of narc abuse) – that’s not only lacking empathy, it’s extremely callous.

          1. I strongly disagree with Mate’s views. They are part of what created this epidemic in the first place.

            Having been on the receiving end of character disturbance, I can state my actions and words belong to me. I do things because I want to. I believe in self control and accountability. Choice is powerful.

            If you see my words as an attack on JC, you are wrong. I am giving my views a voice and your interpretation is just that. You’re welcome to it. I don’t agree with you.

          2. Wow. Aspersions indeed. Can I recommend a walk in nature or a deep breath? Meditation, prayer? Works for me.

            I think we may differ in our views, as Dr. Mate places value on “woundology”. I believe that keeps us stuck in impotent anger and blaming. It also contributes to a management approach to therapy, which reinforces regurgitating victimhood and is also very profitable. I think applying Freudian tenets in today’s aggressive world is ill-conceived, ineffective and even dangerous.
            I align more with Dr.Jung’s and Dr. Simon’s wisdom, an emphasis on faith, character, accountability. Doing the work to attain real change. Seeing things as emospiritual challenges instead of black and white labels and singular hypothesis resonates for me. Healing appeals to my spidey senses. I also think the human animal is more than one dimensional labels can cover, but it seems to have a lot of mass appeal. To dismiss the spirit is to me, a lie.

            Dr. Jordan Peterson has a video on not being a victim that was really eye opening for me. Blew my mind. YMMV.

        2. Aishiteru,

          “A true narcissist would never suggest you get treatment, help others, or give you an inheritance with protective measures in place.”

          Never is always a strong word to use, just like always is. 😉
          In fact, using either “never” or “always” is one of the red flag.

          I disagree with all 3 points. You are incorrectly assuming that suggestion to get treatment implies benevolent intention. Same assumption with helping others… there can be reasons other than helping others when someone runs a charity. Finally, narcissist with inheritance is going to leave it for a person or another after death, so adding riders to inheritance can easily be a way to control others. A manipulator to core will be greatly pleased if he/she can run the system even after dead.

          I agree with you that word “narc” is thrown about very casually.

          1. Andy,

            I love language, words are just mind music. You are more than welcome to disagree anything I say or believe. If my message was lost in the red flags, may I clarify?

            When I suggested my son get treatment, I was the enemy. Everyday I still feel like I’m holding my breath waiting for the call that he’s dead because of his substance abuse. And I’m still the enemy.

            When I suggested my son volunteer, I wanted him to look outside himself and feel gratitude for his gifts and how fortunate he is. I also wanted him to snap and get the bigger picture. There are people suffering in this world and they need help. Being obsessed with himself and having no sense of purpose has rendered him a sucking vortex of selfish greed, chaos and anger. I did not want him to bilk a charity, I wanted him to heal by helping others. To see outside himself before he lost everything, including himself.

            I do not believe in inheritance (legacy is another matter). I had a CD brother in love with drugs given enough money to afford him a homeless stint that landed him dead, under a bridge, penniless. Large sums of money given indiscriminately do not help people, but they do often bring harm.

            We can pathologize someone’s viewpoint, dissecting it and filling it with red flags. Or we can look deeper, and hear we can hear what they’re saying. Every viewpoint has meaning. Thank you for yours.

  11. Why do CD’s have to badmouth you to others? Sometimes others that you really have no dealings with, so why would it matter? And on the other hand I am always surprised when those “others” just take it at face value. You would think they would wonder if its true but maybe they just don’t care and its just easy. It always takes me by surprise when someone treats me like they have something against me and I don’t even know them, and then I remember, this person has contact with the CD. Is it only about control?

    1. Kat, it is one of the great injustices when dealing with CDs. I’d be nice if “they” would hear our side of the story. I agree “they” either don’t care and yes it’s easy and there’s also the go to justification ” well he/she has always been nice to meee”.

      We don’t only have to move on from the CDs in our lives but the enablers and naysayers too. I have spent sleepless nights trying to get over the one sided perception others have had of me and finally “they” are of no importance to me either. Many of those “theys” do not like confrontation and so it goes on and on.

      1. I have learned not to care about what they think of me, its not like you can confront it anyways – its not something that has been out in the open so you never know whats been said, you only get the attitude. That’s what makes it frustrating when it happens, theres no way to address it. I have learned it comes out in comments so I can guess what some of the talk was about.

    2. kat
      My special X has bad mouthed me, telling his “friends” that I’m crazy, mentally ill, and who knows what else. He does it because he’s unstable, and in his unstable mind if he tells others that I’m crazy they may think he’s just fine. Or could it be he is trying to ruin my reputation? I think more probable that it’s all about him and saving his face.
      And I’d bet the so-called “friends” are not real friends and that they find his disparaging comments boring. They don’t know me nor care about me.

      1. I get the feeling as well that she’s afraid that what she has said about me may come out and her lies will be discovered. I also feel its somehow making her feel better about herself. It used to really bother me before I realized about CD’s, but now I don’t really care if those others she had lied to can’t be bothered to find out the truth. I don’t stress out about it anymore but its still unpleasant when I realize its happening.

        1. kat

          I believe some day the truth will come out, that others will realize the CD is a liar and unstable. Surely they’ve seen the signs. But frankly I truly don’t care. For me, this has been going on for three years now. I guess it’s now just a part of my life that I’m being lied about, to people who don’t know me, or vaguely know me. They don’t matter to me. I can truly say I DO NOT CARE.

    3. Kat,

      It makes them feel powerful and gives them a big blast of narcissistic supply. You can be sure when somebody is treating you like you have cholera or some other nasty disease and you have not done anything wrong to that person to effect that type of behavior, you can probably safely assume you are being smeared.

      The upside to a smear campagin is this. It sorts out the wheat from the chaff. You will know who has your back and you will know just who your real friends are.

      1. It used to worry me about how I was going to know but it is fairly clear. The only thing is that due to big time rejection issues I have from my childhood that I just haven’t been able to throw off, it can be confusing. It really taps into that at times, but when I come to my senses I realize there is no reason they are acting like I have two heads other than that they have been lied to. Most of these people are pretty young so they are not very discerning for the most part.

        1. kat

          Do people tell you what these other people have been told? Are you friends with people who are friends with the CD? You may need to cut ties for your own well being if that is the case.
          Frankly, I don’t want to know what the CD is telling people. I have heard through the grapevine a couple of things, but from people who are not my friends, just casual persons I may run into.
          I think it’s rude and insensitive to repeat a harmful rumor to the person. Why do people do this anyway? We don’t “need to know” what lies are being told. Nothing we can do about it, so why dump **** on us when we have no control to get rid of it?
          I had it out with my lawyer who mentioned to me “what courthouse people are saying”. I told her to ask any of her “friends” how we they handle being abused through the courts and emails daily by ___ ____, every day. Then come talk to me. I told her she was cruel for even saying what she said and that it was hurtful. that what she said was mean. She says she told me for my own good so that I’d behave. So I was getting it from not only the SB X but from her as well.
          A day later she apologized and said that I am like the women she sees at the Shelter who are abused. I said “I am abused!” what the hell — like she couldn’t see that.
          I switched to an associate of hers who was a dream.
          Anyway, I just went off — but back to rumors. I don’t want people repeating any harmful rumor to me. It causes injury and hurt. Even though it’s not true, it can suck a little life out of you, and can lead to self doubt, reasoning, and then you come to the conclusion that it’s a lie. But it does hurt.

          1. I get the quick look away every Sunday at the gym from a woman whose mother is someone I’ve gone NC.

            When anyone pretends they haven’t seen me I make a point of saying hello with a smile. What are they going to say to the smear campaigner, “I ran into Sydney and she said hello and smiled”

          2. Good for you that you addressed it with the lawyer. She sounds like someone I wouldn’t want to deal with, hopefully shes not dumb enough to believe everything she hears. I used to be hurt by it that the CD would do that to me, but its not about me at all I know now. Its all about them and their twisted mentality. It does still hurt, but for the most part since this is my family member, I feel pity for her that she is so messed up and completely miserable. I don’t care about most of those she spreads lies to, but some of them I do and I will expose the lies if I get a chance.

          3. Lucy

            “She says she told me for my own good so that I’d behave”. CHING CHING red flag. Did you knock her out? LOL I’d have been tempted.

            Good job you got rid of her that’s a perfect example straight out of the gaslighting handbook 101. She told you for your own good – indeed (that’s the “do gooders” carrot). “So that you’d behave” (based on what evidence?) -shakes head- For one sentence it’s got a lot in it. Veiled threat and emotional blackmail in one hit. How many times have you heard shit like that from SB? Glad you sacked her Lucy.

            That’s actually really dangerous. When you’ve stepped out of one situation with a CD and the abuse is perpetuated down the line from secondary and tertiary sources it just compounds the injury.

            It’s why it’s so important when healing to be around people who understand intimately what narcissistic abuse actually is because if the abuse compounds it can tip somebody totally over the edge.

  12. SYdNeY

    The point of a smear campain is. You are not giving them what they want or need. It is sour grapes. You may smile and say Hello, But they WILL LIE BY DISTORTION and OMMISSION.
    You have to think as if you are being questioned by the police. This is what happened to me. THEY ARE CACULATING ; AND They Will Lie, They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie,They Will Lie…………………
    It is all about POSITION,POSITION,POSITION and LYING GIVES THEM THAT.

        1. Well done Joey! Life is on the up and up. Please do let us know how it goes on Sunday and I hope you enjoy and have a delightful time.

      1. Good reminder Joey, it is about position. They put you in the down position thru covertness, and leave you without recourse unless the subject they lied about comes up and the person they lied to actually says something about it which is doubtful.
        Nice that you met someone you want to get to know better. Happy for you.

      2. Joey,
        A few words of advice. Whatever, you do don’t get into it about the mother or gmother or any other family member for that matter. This can scare a nice person off. Give yourselves both time to get to know each other. I know I scared some nice people off when I mentioned to early on in the relationship about the dysfunction in my family.

        I am really excited for you. Either way you may end up making a good friend. Promise you will let us know. I have a few nice friends too, am still looking though. My one fellow friend we try and help each other and always have a nice time together. Who knows???

        Now be off my dear one, you brought a smile to my face, one I sorely needed, especially, with all the good things happening for you lately.
        I hope you have nothing but smiles too, remember, smile a lot and be your authentic self. I hope she loves poetry.
        Hugs

    1. Joey,
      Am I not to smile and acknowledge this person in any way? Is this what you’re saying? I’d rather trip her or shove her aside but I thought we are to treat people as we would want to be treated not how they treat us? This person I’m writing about is literally someone I pass in a hallway going in and out of a public facility, she looks down or away pretending not to see me so then do I do the same?

      1. Sydney,

        How we want to be treated as in being seen for what we are does not apply in Narcland. What Joey is saying (and having been on the end of several smear campaigns myself) is this. What you actually do or say is totally irrelevant to the narcissist. They don’t deal in reality – they are psychotic, reality to them is irrelevant – they create their own and expect everybody so submit to their false reality.

        How you actually are wont be registered, what you will be depicted as will be something else entirely and you have absolutely no control over this. You can walk into a flying monkey smiling and being pleasant – the monkey goes back to report to the evil one “Oh I saw Sydney today she was happy and smiling and appeared to be in good humor”

        What the narcissist will report to others would go along the lines of “Oh yes, poor Sydney she was seen at such and such the other day and apparently she was really twisted up angry and bitter. I wish I could help her, I really do, I so worry for her sanity, she is really losing the plot. ” blah blah blah.

        That’s a smear campaign Syndey. It won’t matter what you do, or for that matter, what don’t do. When a narc has it in for you the truth goes out the window pure and simple. Your character will be slandered and maligned so the narc can A. grab ultruistic traction (by being seen as such a loving and compassionate human being) while appearing to be so worried about your condition as to give further credence to their false sense of goodness and B. shoot the poison arrow straight into your heart by slandering and maligning you.

        They are experts at this. Narcissists lie Sydney they lie they lie they lie and they will lie, lie, lie and lie again. Narcissists don’t deal in reality. They are neurologically deficient in important areas, their brains don’t function the same way as neuropathological people. You are nothing in their eyes and they are everything. They are seriously brain damaged freaks of nature. Their character is a result of their stunted and atrophied neurological circuitry. It want bung from a very early age.

      2. SYdNeY

        I am trying to find this in the above conversation and this may be way off topic. There are many people in this world in pain, many shy and introverted, many afraid,for what ever reason and afraid of rejection, many living in their own secluded world without any care for another human passing their way with no time for to acknowledge another for years on end.

        SYdney, I would do what your heart compels you to speak, not expecting anything in return. Who knows your hearty “Hello” and “Smile” might be that little bit of human acknowledgement she needs. On the other hand, she may just ignore you and keep going which I wouldn’t take personally. You offered a sincere gesture of humanity and I would keep on being your loving self. Who knows, one day your smile and greeting make open new doors for someone that is hurting and needed that a small touch of kindness.

        I believe Dr. Simon says: One Person at a Time

      3. Am I not to smile and acknowledge this person in any way? Is this what you’re saying?

        Yes

        You SYdNeY are behaving in a conscientious way to someone who is unkind to you.
        You just have to understand just HOW CALCULATING THEY ARE. If you take away empathy, how do you interact with others. You start to play POWER GAMES.
        Basically if you ignor them they cannot play, because YOU ARE NOT PLAYING. Life to a CD is a game of one up men ship. Always try to get one over on you. This is how they are. Be mindful, If you are NOT THERE OR DO’NT SPEAK HOW CAN YOU BE DOING THE THINGS THEY SAY YOU ARE.
        I got that from a Lawyer.
        I spent 24hr in a police cell. 4 days before starting a new job working on a CNC machine. I had told her I was leaving. BIG FCUK UP on my part. If you say nothing, they cannot play.

        1. That was the LIGHT BULB MOMENT.

          8 MONTHS Later on, I had moved out and in to MY OWN APPARTMENT,
          A futher 15 months on top of the 8. I stated My present Job, Which I love and I now have A date with a Mel B (americas got talent Mel B ) look a like Down stairs in my Appartment block.

        2. Joey,

          Thank you for asking, I apologize if if said this wrong. I believe you should smile, smile, smile and be happy. Show that loving happy side, that beautiful loving you, that many times in the past you had to suppress. Be the Joey, we all love and admire here. Just leave the past in the past for now, I would love to know you have found someone that brings you joy and happiness, that compliments the special person you are.

          Have a wonderful time and enjoy the moment, relish in it and you will grow immensely. I want the best for you, knowing if you can find happiness, therefore, so can, we. We are all happy for you, Kindred Spirit and never forget this.

          Hugs dear one and have a wonderful time!

  13. Eudox,
    The attorney had my nerves frazzled just as much as SB did. She was negative about my case at the get-go. She was constantly telling me to not talk to anyone at work. Well, I work there 40 hours a week. It was a touchy situation working at thBete place where the divorce takes place. Between the abuse and stress and anxiety brought on my SB actions and her berating me and constantly badgering me for money, “I need $10,000”, this is going to cost you lots of money . . . . “I need 10,000 for the appeal” – my case actually had an appeal over the damn house that he was trashing. Cost me two years of litigation and tens of thousands dollars attorney fees.
    Anyway, yes, we had it out several times. After SB took out after her personally in a petition, she suggested I use an associate of hers, because of SB’s hatred towards her, animostity. He always hated her, going way back when he was young lawyer. I suffered more BS in court because he was attacking both her and me. Between the both of them I was barely holding on, trying to not freefall into a depression. It did make me sick. Now that the case has settled I am feeling like my old self again. I got a terrible, unjust settlement I agreed to because I could not afford attorney fees any longer. Already in it for over $70,000. Ridiculous. But that is what a manidpulative, hateful, unstable, ill CD will do in court, try all he can to ruin me, and ruin me financially he did succeed. I lost a lot, but finally had to CUT my loses because that badger would not go away, would not back down.
    There was no justice for me to be had in court, not with that evil man. I’d love to be able to have a face off with him, but can’t, because he’d run to the court as fast as he could to file petitions.
    But I was fighting the SB abuse and getting it with the attorney. Taking on both of them. It was awful.

    1. Lucy,

      The fact you made it out the other end without having a total nervous breakdown shows you have an amazing resilience and you are a very strong person. Jumping from the frying pan into the fire takes considerable navigational abilities so as to not incur emotional whiplash. Tertiary abuse is as evil as first degree narcissistic abuse. It’s disgraceful that there are professionals out there who are using the client’s condition to their own advantage.

      It’s really important for everyone who has done the fire walk through hell to keep only trusted friends and family around. To engage with anybody who demonstrates distinct lack of compassion and empathy should be avoided at all costs. The legal profession is really shark infested waters it’s loaded to the hilt with them.

      Also when we are fresh out of narc abuse is the most vulnerable and critical time and we need to safe guard against further shark attacks. It is truly amazing how CD have a nose for wounded people and they’ll come in with feigned ultruism – just like sharks to blood. There is a fine line between ultruism and toxic misanthropic generosity always with strings attached.

      Lucy for your own sake give yourself a big hug – you came out alive and in tact! You may have lost money but you gained something much more valuable. Freedom, insight, knowledge and a defiance that will aid you in future. I run this mantra everyday over and over again “I have abundant love and support from Universe, Source and others”

      You are doing a great job Lucy! -big huggzzzzzzzz-

  14. Aishurta,

    So sorry how you’ve suffered with your son.
    We all have stories, backgrounds, that give us a unique insight into situations. We are given bits of info here of each other, and try to help or understand it. It’s difficult.
    We all have our own style of writing. My style is I write as if I’m talking. It at times goes off on a tangent, but I try to reel it back in.
    I do try hard to be diplomatic and kind to others, not to create any hurt feelings. I’m non confrontational. I’m not at ease with a confrontation, so I don’t do it.
    Our words, written words, can hurt. I try my best to not hurt. We’ve all got so much pain already.

    1. That is kind of you Lucy. Truly has been hellish, to love someone and watch them disappear a little at a little at a time. I understand what you’re saying about confrontation, it is uncomfortable. Good to pick your battles. Being assertive is a powerful thing to practice, because your viewpoint is important. It is a skill worth exploring, and it will serve you for a lifetime. It is not about winning or reacting, more about truth. The truth will set you free.

      It is also a matter of doing the right thing. I regret what I haven’t said in instances where my courage was lacking, and my self doubt was in high gear. There are consequences to not speaking up. I hope you do. I’d bet your heart’s input could make a difference in a lot of ways.

      “The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.”
      Edmund Burke

      1. Aish
        True words. I do need to work on speaking my voice. I certainly have more voice now than I did before the counseling and marriage break-up and all that ensued in the court battle. I learned to stand up and fight back (even with my attorney – that’s a whole nuther story.) But still, I tend to just turn my back on things I just don’t want to deal with. One only has so much energy.
        My son is mentally ill, had drug and alcohol issues, so I do understand. Had it not been for intervention of mental health services including housing for him I honestly don’t know where he’d be today. It got to the point that it was unbearable having him in my home. He attacked the x-husband on a drunken day and tried to hurt him. The X said he believed our son was trying to kill him and that had his gun been out he would have shot our son. And the son did lie about the both of us and still tells random lies. Anyway he is doing well now, living in a group-type environment, has a roommate, 24 hour staff on site.
        I’m sorry you’re still suffering through life with your son. There is no answer, seems to be no peace. It’s awful.

        1. Lucy,
          This is what I’m on fire about. I don’t know how to be anything else when I see how much suffering and chaos is going on. Talking about it is rarely done openly, from the family’s viewpoint. The one talking, being understood, validated, and catered to is the substance abuser. They beat the crap out of their families. We were so exhausted and lost for a time. I don’t think sympathy helps anyone who is hell bent on destroying themselves and others. You love this son so much, the pain is exquisite, as is the shame, desperation and confusion. Someone of the Mate genre believes this love and the power of choice is non existent, and tells Mr. CD drug lover it really is mom and dad’s fault. He’s wounded, has a disease, and we’re the enemy. He now has no ownership in his descent. Hates God, his family and all creation, but loves his anger, drugs and alcohol. Now we’re cooking with gas. Dangerous victimhood in full effect. Total chaos ensues and now people are in danger because he is pissed, fried, and clinically validated. I’m to blame, my love, and my experience is belittled and invalidated. And you want me to pay for this?

          Trusting God and truly surrendering my son to Him daily, sometimes moment to moment is all I can do.

          Dr. Simon’s work is a gift. Especially his views on substance abuse with a focus on character and accountability. Workable truth could’ve helped my son.

          Just for the record, the omniscient therapist that added his expertise to the situation, has fired my son as a patient. He is now the enemy.
          Time is poetry. I wonder if his perspective has elevated? I can only hope. I wonder if his bill has been paid?

          I can honestly say I feel for the families of substance abusers. I wish their pain was acknowledged more.
          So being the change, I hear you Lucy. I feel your pain. I wish you every bit of healing and strength your heart can hold. I hope you let go of what’s not yours and take such good care of you and your husband. Your peace, safety, and voice are all sacred. There is life beyond parenthood, and it is good. There’s some relief in not being alone, though I wouldn’t wish this on anyone. Thanks for your story. Thanks for really hearing me.

          1. Aish
            I totally understand where you’re coming from. I’ve watched the drug using, drug seeking from my son to the doctors. I have not experienced what you have, though. My son’s actions were not validated. He wound up in jail after the physical altercation at home. It’s so complicated a situation with him being mentallly ill, but compounding it with drugs. However, not he has been drug free for several years, alcohol free as well, since living in the group home. They don’t allow it period. And he follows the rules and likes living there. The problem I am encountering lately is that now that I’m recovering from the emotional abuse from the X, I’m more aware of my relationships with my children (adults now). My son is is a taker, doesn’t give. He asks me for favors regularly, which I used to do, mostlly out of guilt, but now I’m pulling back. Recently I had to moved and I told him several times I’d appreciate his help, but he wouldn’t help. It really angers me. How could a son, 28 years old, say no to his mother who is nearing 60, and needs help moving? But he has no problem asking me to drive over and buy him fast food, deliver it to him. (he doens’t drive but has a free bus pass). So I’ve been saying no, but do feel guilt. But I feel used. It’s take take, not give and take and I’m sick of it.
            I know of several families going through or have gone through similar situations. Some of these addicts seem to live forever and destroy the parents. They are life suckers.
            The more I write the more I realize how troubled my life has been. Thank goodness I have good friends, a good job, the kindest boyfriend and a good sense of humor.
            I think I’ve been to hell. But I’m back.

        2. I’m sorry about your divorce Lucy, I misread too quickly, please forgive me. You really have been through a lot.

          Have you had a lot of brain fog? I think the stress of 10 years has messed with some formerly clear connections.

          1. My mind is clearer now than in a long time, now that most of my troubles with the X are wrapping up. (Still have the 2nd home to sell, but do have a contract). The home is the last tie, besides our daughter and son and grandson. But I’m NC with him, not totally, but close.
            My mind is clearer now because I understand what has happened in the marriage. Yes, I’ve been through a lot. I’ve had some very dark days and nights. At times I’d wished a truck would just run me over and end it. It was difficult to take on an ongoing basis.

          2. Do they all have the same playbook? Being a taker is an art form for them. So nice when they want something. We helped ours with tax prep and daycare. Payback was supposed to be his help during our move. He half- heartedly put in about 2 hours, said he was tired from a rough work week. He’d like to call it a day and had a great idea. Would we like to go to dinner on him? Then we could enjoy the evening and start fresh tomorrow. No problem, how nice.
            His card was declined at the restaurant. Of course he never showed up the next day, but he did tell some friends of ours that he loved the new house and that it would be his someday. This was at the beginning of his new relationship with a girl we never did meet. They didn’t have any use for us after we said no to anything financial, suggesting a wants versus needs approach seemed to piss them off. Five years down the road, they were both a mess. He became entrenched in the my parents are narcs pothead thing, which then escalated into cocaine and whiskey and has crescendoed with opiates. He has worked consistently, and had a homeless stint. He’s in serious legal trouble now, he will do prison time if he’s caught. His lies, head games, betrayals, entitlement and aggression have been going on for so long. His latest is not even shocking. My highest hope is that he does not hurt himself or anyone else.

            Looking for the light in all of this, God is so good. My husband is a beautiful soul. We’ve been really fortunate in many ways, the love just flows. Friends are gems and work is solid. Life has a flow again.

            I get everything you’re saying Lucy. Feeling used sucks. There’s power in letting a grown man be a man. The word no can be delivered so many ways. That’s not good for me. I’m not comfortable with that. I am busy, but have a good one. I can’t afford to.
            No negotiation. He can do it for himself, let him do it.
            Maybe that generous nature could do more good for people who understand reciprocation. Or people in real need. I hope you’re generous with yourself. It is overdue. Anything less gets a firm no. Live a beautiful life, be so good to you.

  15. Sydney,

    This person at this gym sounds to be uncomfortable in your presence. You’ve greeted her and smiled with a simple “hello”, being cordial and pleasant, as a normal person would do when confronting a person she knows.
    However, this person’s body language is telling you that she is uncomfortable in your presence. You’ve reached out to show that you’re not there to do harm.
    She’s still looking down, still trying to avoid you, being uncomfortable in your presence. That’s her stuff. If it were me, I’d ignore her. She’s rejecting you by not giving a simple “hello” back.
    I hate being in cold and awkward environment such as that. It’s ugly tension in the air.

    1. Lucy, SYdney,
      Now I understand the scenario, I agree with Lucy’s take on this. I have been out of the loop, somewhat, lately. Getting ready for winter and just lots to catch up on.

    2. Lucy,
      she always says hello back but in a condescending ♪♫♪ hellloo♪♫♪ voice that isn’t even her normal voice. I’ve known this person since she was a baby, given wedding gifts, blah blah, blah she was happy to know me when I had a gift in my hand but she learned very early to mimic her mother’s habit of snubbing people.

      I went NC with her mother 8 years ago because of her mother’s attempts at manipulation that I wouldn’t stand for, who knows what the mother has said to her daughter about me but frankly I don’t care. I don’t care about this person either as her and her mother both possess this air of superiority that backfires on them. The mother has virtually zero friends and has left the city. I say hello because it’s in my nature to do so, it’s not to make her uncomfortable and I don’t feel rejected. Her head almost falls off her shoulders from snapping away, just to appear as if she hasn’t seen me, I’ve seen her and her mother do this on numerous occasions. It’s a loathsome habit.

    3. What if she just doesn’t feel comfortable with someone giving her mother the silent treatment?

      If somebody treated someone I love inconsiderately, I would not want much to do with them. Loyalty is the word that comes to mind.

      No contact is another concept being flung about. Paints it all PC instead of passive aggressive.
      If you’re going to treat someone like they’re dead to you while they’re alive, call it what it is. The effects of the silent treatment and ostracism make for an enlightening read. That’s some dangerously destructive targeted stuff.

        1. The first paragraph of Dr. Simon’s post is making a lot of sense right now.

          Disdain or relating in civil, genuine, generous ways.

          I hope you enjoy your salad and have a beautiful weekend Eudoxia!

      1. Aishiteru,

        “What ifs” are the reason that keep most decent people in harmful relationships far longer than they should have. So, one should simply stick to facts or observed behaviours.

        Your definition of “No Contact” is bit too extreme. Even if we take the extreme definition “treating someone like they are dead to you while they are alive”, there simply are people that deserve that. Maybe they are not pure evil incarnate to everyone, but they are bad enough for me to go No Contact.

        Silent treatment and ostracism are totally different concepts and unrelated to No Contact.

        You tend to take extreme end of position to try to shame others into submission. That is assuming battle position and leaves a little room of accommodation.

        My soon to be ex-wife is posing obstacle in my attempt to meet my daughter. If no children were involved, then I would have gone No Contact long ago. Now, seeing her actual behaviour, do I wish my wife was dead… absolutely, and I wish I had luxury of No Contact. 🙁

          1. Andy,

            I see what you are saying, but I’m going deeper than definitions. There is no question in my mind that ending relationships is sometimes necessary. It is part of life.

            What is your take on the effects of the silent treatment and ostracism?

            What would a misguided no contact do to the person on the receiving end?

            Is using salad as a reply to a serious post a passive aggressive way to invalidate someone’s input, while garnering the approval of the group?

            Could it be read as disdain for someone with differing views?

            Would that be extreme or shameful in any way? What does it say about character?

        1. Andy
          That STBX is a royal pain. Where I live, her behavior of thwarting contact you, the non-custodial parent, is one criteria that the courts don’t tolerate. These instances can be used against her in the custody battle. I feel for you having to have to fight to actually see YOUR daughter. It’s not right.
          On the topic of treating some people as if they are “dead” or don’t exist, there are a few people I encounter that I look the other way and they do the same. There is animosity and neither of us what an encounter. I don’t have to say pleasantries to those who have wronged me.

          1. Aishit,

            From reading some of your posts you speak of having a CD addicted son. I don’t recall if you gave his age or if he is living at home. My family is rampant with addictions problems. I am wondering if you have ever attended Al Anon to help you deal with the problems you are having.

            Working the steps in the Al Anon program are beneficial for everyone in life. What comes to mind is the Step of Letting Go and Letting God. When we continue to protect the CD addict or abuser we are enabling their continuing bad behavior.

            The most unselfish and loving gesture is to confront the addict and give them and ultimatum and some are so far gone this is not an option. We also, need to give up trying to control the situation, regardless, of the consequences the loved one may experience, instead of the CD relying on Mommy’s and Daddy’s coming to bail them out.

            “What is your take on the effects of the silent treatment and ostracism?” The NC says to the CD addict, you will no longer be drawn into their web of deceit and lies and to continue to be a part of their sick twisted behavior and will no longer pick up the pieces after them. There is no ostracism on your part or anyone’s part, the CD addict has already left your particular group structure for fulfilling the love of their addiction and that of participating CD addicts and like company.

            “What would a misguided no contact do to the person on the receiving end?” One needs to let the CD addict take full responsibility for their behavior and what may be the most difficult and loving thing you can do is to cut them loose. Let your son suffer the consequences of his behavior. In all probability it will release you from the turmoil of continually worrying about him and allow you to enter recovery. What will happen to the person on the receiving end, your son, he will have to hopefully, take a good look at himself or move onto greener pastures and find another enabler.

            I am saying this in all kindness, you need to let your son go. Give up the reigns and work on yourself. I attended Al Anon for three years, the best thing I ever did for myself. It is not an easy step to take, to look within yourself and work on ones own shortcomings. However, we must if we want change and a healthy life we have to give up on our own distorted thinking, known as stinking thinking and take charge of our own life.

            This is just the beginning, a choice you have to make, just as it will the ultimate choice of the CD addict.

          2. BTOV,
            You’re a much more agreeable lady than I am. I read your story of your father, he was lucky to have you. Your advice would have helped 10 years ago. I agree with everything you said.

            I’m not worried about silent treatment’s effect on him, that’s part of his tool bag, not mine. He was on his own at 18, did well for himself. Always had a bit of selfishness, lies and anger, but we chalked it up to immaturity. We worked with that by not enabling him, firm boundaries and calling him on his crap.
            I won’t tolerate a substance abuser’s chaos and cruelty, so living with him was never a problem. His character hit the skids, he chose the drug scene and is now a functional substance abuser, fully employed, engaged in criminal activity. I wish confrontation or reaching out helped, but it only seems to amuse him.
            I have let him go, loving detachment, but because of what he’s pulling lately, he will end up dead or in prison. I would love to not care, but I worry about his daughter, I watch my husband suffer and I hold my breath not knowing what’s coming. There’s not a thing I can do about it. Love laced with fear is a mind bending thing.

        2. Andy–yes, ostracism too, is a group effort.

          Silent treatment is generally used to describe silence as an offensive measure — and usually limited to close relationships. Silence is weaponized most frequently by offenders in couple’s conflicts.
          “No contact” is a defensive position used by people in any situation where there is a potential for further manipulation, usually by a CD individual.

          I had to go no contact with a ‘friend’ once. I discovered she was manipulating and lying and genuinely attempting to ostracize me. That was it. I let her have it and have not spoken to her since. I have only done this once in my life. For me it was a last resort measure.
          I know enough now about manipulation that I can spot it pretty quickly and just stay away from those who give off that vibe.

        3. Disagreeing with you is not a battle position, it is a difference of opinion.

          You see me as an extreme, malevolent person feeding on shame looking to do battle. OK.

          I can think about that.

          I know myself well enough to say that’s a very limited perspective, somewhat myopic and judgmental. Based on very little, seen through your filter and life experience. You’ve analyzed me, but you don’t understand me. And I’m good with that. I don’t need your approval or submission or respect.

          You can judge someone and dismiss them, or you can hear them.

          I don’t know you, and never really will. But I hear your pain about your daughter. I know exactly what you’re talking about. Someone uses something you love to torture you. I hope you find some peace and that your daughter is safe and loved, and this gets sorted out for you and for her little heart. Peace Andy.

          1. Aishiteru,
            It’s the way you disagree, that suggests you are struggling for the upper hand in an argument that you initiated–about somebody else’s experience.
            A better way to propose an alternative theory of someone else’s experience would be to offer it as a suggestion rather than a fact.
            It preserves feelings and invites the listener to actually listen rather than throw up a defensive wall or come back at you in a hostile manner.

          2. Lisa,

            I may not agree with what you say, but I will stand up for your right to say it. I will not tell you how to say it in order to be more “accepted”. I don’t want to alter your delivery, my focus is on your viewpoint. I can hear your idea and disagree without seeing you as a threat.

            Hostility and defensiveness don’t answer questions or deal with issues. They shut down communication.

            If this was a closed support group for children of narcissistic mothers, my discussing character would be out of the question.

            Differing views and experiences are valuable. I hear viewpoints, state my own, ask questions and look for meaning. There’s gold there. Thanks for making me think, even though I don’t agree with you.

            What is your take on the salad debacle? Don’t want to get all up in my feels, but it smells shady. Kinda mean and dismissive, without being direct.

            Interesting welcome committee.

          3. Aishiteru,

            Which part of my post you perceived as that I see you “malevolent person”?
            Malevolent is tad too strong word to use.

            I do not see you as malevolent person… at least not at the moment. Also I deny your theory that Andy D analyzed Aishiteru. 🙂
            In my opinion, you are lot more judgemental than I am. You tend to see things in stronger white/black mode, whereas I am bit more comfortable with different shades of gray. Finally my opinion of you is not cast in iron, it will change as you post more. 🙂

  16. Joey, Lucy, BTOV & Eudoxia,

    Please read Dr. Simon’s blog on

    Real Character: Relating in Civil, Genuine, Generous Ways

    In a nutshell, we don’t have to be kind to CDs,
    just be civil.

    1. SYdNeY

      she always says hello back but in a condescending ♪♫♪ hellloo♪♫♪ voice that isn’t even her normal voice.

      You are being played. If that is what you want, then it is your choice.

      joey

  17. Grey Rock Tecnique is a good one. CD hate being ignored it fractures their sense of self. The entire purpose of extracting narcissistic supply from us is so their false construct receives validation. Any type of emotional response even negative responses/reactions gives them supply. They need it much akin to a vampire needing blood. The more energy you give them the bigger the hit they get.

    What I’ve learned is this and it’s very effective. If you ignore them, show them no emotions and if you absolutely have to interact with them do so in a robotic monotone way, hence denying them any form of supply. They’ll soon get bored and move onto more fertile hunting grounds.

    I can tell you now though, that if you have a great deal of empathy grey rock can be extremely challenging because emapths are naturally full of expression and emotions and that’s what draws them to us in the first place.

    1. From here on in I will no longer acknowledge her. I can hardly wait to see her tomorrow so I can ignore her. Seriously.

      One other thing that just cropped up, and I feel like a pain in the arse asking but I’d like some advice. I found out last evening that my niece came into town and did not contact us to get together. This was highly unusual. Her father is my ex -bro who I’ve gone NC with for over two years. I have been very close to my niece and we’ve always been kind and generous to her even through her estrangement with her father. They made up the same time I went NC, and we have no doubt that I’ve been the victim of slow and methodical smear campaign. But even after they made up she still kept in contact with us and never missed a chance to see us for dinner. She even said to me once “I know he has problems but I will forgive him anything”, also adding with a sob that “my father has told vicious and filthy lies about my mother, please don’t believe them”.

      Fast forward to today, I would like to know should we let this go and accept that she in all probability has been told lies about me by her CDN father and may have even been given an ultimatum OR do I ask why? There is the part of me that does not want to be in a position of having to defend myself but then on the other hand if I don’t ask what’s happened then what message does that send? This young woman has been raised by two CDNs so we aren’t totally surprised it’s come to this but it just seems to have happened so abruptly. Thanks again for listening and for any advice.

      1. SYdNeY

        You can say “GOODBYE” to this Jane Dough person. “Goodbye” means that YOU ARE NOT CONTROLLED. Never Say Hello,JUST GOODBYE.

        SYdNeY

        I have left my entire family behind me. ” I have no one”
        I am trying to build my own life.
        Your Niece, If she CHOOSES to not contact you THAT IS HER CHOICE. Stay away From her. If she cares for you SHE WILL CONTACT YOU. Mean time Steer Clear of her. Do not Question her, It Will make matters worse. I have been their, wrote the book, bought the “T” shirt. I speak to you with a Great deal of Experience of this.

        SYdNeY Be Mindful. Try and live your life the best way you can. The CD persons Just drag you down. FCUK “EM”

        1. Joey, it’s getting to the point where I’m not going to have any family either and it doesn’t scare me because I have friends who have chosen to be a part of my life. “Family” shouldn’t be an endurance test!

          I will absolutely listen to your advice and I won’t contact my niece. I will take her actions at face value rather than hear an excuse she might have at hand.

          I needed permission/validation not to care, I thought I was better at this but I’m still learning how to get through this maze of assholes.

          1. Sydney/Joey

            You are not alone in that boat. The only family I have left are my son and his partner. My Aunt is still on the scene but deeply religious and holds the “turn the other cheek and/or just kiss and make up” opinion. No let’s not.

            I turned the cheek of course right in the opposite direction – I would rather hammer nails into my feet than kiss and make up with that bunch of frozen adult children and won’t be. I am no longer into masochistic behavior because that’s what it comes down to in the end. Once we’ve ascertained they are CD it’s NC – to entertain anything more when we don’t have to becomes self abuse. I feel for all those out there who still have to go semi contact due to divorce or shared parenting of children. CD use their children as weapons.

            What you can count on anytime a CD is even remotely in the picture is chaos.

          2. SYdNeY

            I have just met another lady. I am just trying to get my life back. It takes time. As I said the smear is because you DO’NT give them wwhat they want or need. Best to get out if you can. It is very hard thing to do but NEVER GIVE UP ON YOUR SELF.

            I always say.

            If you think your lifes a joke,
            and your success few,
            think that the mighty oak,
            was a NUT LIKE YOU.

            We must be to put up with all this abuse and unkind things.
            BUT IT GETS BETTER, with time.

            Keep the faith

            Joey

        2. Sydney, Joey,

          Excellent info in this post. I tend to be as cut and dry as you but wanted to step gently. I know I had to finally cut out the whole family too, my Mom straddles the fence and all the CDN children will be out for blood, except again, I stand in the way.

          Really am tired of all this, I told my Mom if she doesn’t have her desires done legally, I want nothing to do with any of it. I think as you say Joey, it is better off starting out fresh and alone. Not easy by no means but in the end cathartic and a new beginning.

          None of these interactions ever bode well for anyone, especially, the decent caring ones.

          1. Joey,

            So now there are two. Oh boy, this may become a rather awkward juggling job with the other woman living below. I read your post and I was in stitches, I hope you are having happy thoughts and smiles galore. Life can be good, loved the Oak story, yep, I started out as a nut too.

            Hugs and am glad you are happy.

          2. JC,

            How are you, you have been rather quiet, unless I missed your post somewhere. Always, look forward to your comments, you bring up some interesting topics and thoughts.
            Hugs

          3. The second one has not Phoned yet. IT IS VERY MUCH HER CHOICE. She took my number, and said she would phone me. If she does or does’nt is ok. The point in posting this information is THAT I HAD THE COURAGE TO ASK THESE LADYS OUT.
            Life ; IS GETTING BETTER, BECAUSE I AM MORE CONFIDENT.
            If both reject me then, Pick my self up, dust my self off, and get on with it. What can ANYONE DO OTHER THAT THAT.

            Keep the faith

            Joey

      2. Sydney,

        I know this type of thing is incredibly painful – my friend who is NC with her ex has 3 kids to him. It took her a good while to get them to understand why she could not be with their father. Children of narcissists remain extremely loyal almost until the end. All of her kids are now starting to see how bad he really is but it’s taken them 3 years or more.

        Unfortunately there is nothing you can really do here Sydney. There is little point in approaching your niece – there is a high chance you are being smeared. This is their favorite pastime when they have targeted somebody for destruction. You see narcissists destroy those they can’t control – they will spare no effort there. I would suggest it is not your niece but she will undoubtedly be under the influence of her father.

        It’s also possible she isn’t and she had a bit on her plate. I would suggest you shoot her a text message along the lines of “heard you were in town sorry to have missed you” and leave it short. If she responds you will have a clearer picture. If sh doesn’t you can consider it a silent treatment which speaks volumes. Narcs don’t realise that saying nothing says a hell of a lot more. In their arrogance and hubris they actually think they are hurting us. But narc silent treatments are pure gold – it allows you to hone in on them.

        What is important for you right now is to stay whole. You can’t resolve this situation as you have no control over it. You can only control you – you have no control over your niece. Your niece right now though is showing you something. There is an upside to narc abuse so bear with me.

        If you go into the pain this is causing you, sit with it and really feel it. Then try to trace it back in time and recall the first time you felt like that (you will find it somewhere in your early life – it’s residual from childhood). No matter what our upbringings are like, no matter how loving and kind our parents where or weren’t we all have childhood wounding. The fact is from age 0 – 7 we are recording everything. We operate in a Theta brainwave state consuming everything, all of our experiences, good, bad and indifferent are all stored in our subconscious. Painful experiences leave wounds in our emotional bodies.

        These wounds fly under the radar and we are unconscious of them. Only until we go look. Once we are aware of our wounds we can deal with them and heal them. While they go unrecognised and unacknowledged narcs will succeed in hurting us. The pain of narc abuse is like no other. It’s horrendous. The gift is they shine a big fat light that illuminates all our unhealed parts.

        They trigger all of our unresolved wounds. I don’t know how they manage to do this with such aplomb but they do and they are good at it. We can be triggered by anybody, not just narcs but they do it deliberately. I’m not suggesting your niece is one, but there is a high likeliness she is being used as a type of flying monkey by her father. In all honesty it’s an unknown at this point. She may have been just busy and not had the time. Dealing with narcs or anybody associated with them is an each way bet at the best of times.

        Try not to take it to heart. Go inside and look at what this type of behavior is bringing up for you. It will be a similar type of thing but from long past. I can tell you now, my biggest issues are around injustice and betrayal. What do narcs do? Betrayal is their specialty. I thought I’d done a lot of inner work, locating schemas and bringing them to light etc. But I can tell you right now, nothing works like narcs do.

        I signed up with Melanie Tonia Evans – Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Program – NARP and I can tell you right now it’s been pure gold! I’ve cracked some big ones that have been lying beneath for a long time and it’s why I was a narc magnet. So I decided to put an end to it once and for all and signed up with NARP. Since doing it I have not looked back and have powered along in leaps and bounds.

        I always thought I was well adjusted and had done a lot of inner work. While I was aware of certain triggers I did not allow myself to react to them. But nothing works like not being triggered at all and that’s what NARP does. It takes you straight to your unresolved childhood wounds so they can be resolved and released. It’s like intense re-parenting.

        They can’t get under my skin now – they have ZERO impact – ZIP, ZILCH! I won’t be hanging out with any of them anytime too soon but if I see them then there is nothing left in me to trigger so they’ll have no effect on me. It’s spiritual armour and if they wish to talk to me with malice lined acidity spoken by a forked tongue I’ll just point and laugh.

        Just remember you have no control over anybody else or how they chose to show up in any moment all you can control is you. Please listen to Merrideth Miller talk about smear campaigns – it snapped me to attention pretty quick.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiqnqKAtFOE

          1. Sydney – I recommend listening to the life coaches. There are many good ones out there, and all of them have been on the end of narc abuse and fully understand it. Not only do they understand they know how to heal, have done so and are living from an evolved and expanded position. The school of hard knocks might be difficult but the benefits of learning the lessons from it are actually priceless and I am starting to benefit from it in many, many ways.

            Melanie Tonia Evans, Lisa A Romano, Merredith Miller and Richard Grannon are par excellent. All of their stuff. Absolutely essential when in recovery or in the middle of the abuse phase where ever you find yourself.

          2. Eudox, and all,

            I wholeheartedly, agree with Eudox, the Life Coaches are awesome, especially the LC’s Eudox has listed are full of information and knowledge far beyond most therapists. The LC’s get right to the nitty gritty instead of beating around the bush for years on end to bring you to where you need to be. In fact many therapists are clueless.

            Thanks Eudox, for posting the numerous links that are indeed beneficial for healing.
            Hugs

      3. SYdNeY,
        In my opinion, you should call you niece and ask her directly… no aggression, just telling that you heard that she was in town, it would have been nice had she told you.
        Be direct. Assume whatever she says is true. If she lies, her loss. Lie come out sooner or later, in long run it can never match what you actually see and hear.
        Not speaking will just fuel imagination.
        Give benefit of doubt. Once. Twice. But, not third time.

        1. SYdNeY,

          I read following bit late ” She got engaged over the summer and I found out through my SIL. I sent her a message on her B/D and sent her best wishes on her engagement. I received a reply many days later saying thank-you and that was that.”

          You have already given your niece more than enough chances.

          If I were you, I won’t bother about her any longer.

        2. Andy D,
          I appreciate your response, but I think it best I not contact her.

          This is a young woman who could take the initiative and say “Aunt Syd, I was in town for a visit and……”
          But, she came to town and didn’t let us know, so I will surmise that her father has control over her, to be honest we are well out of it. Her actions have indeed spoke volumes and was very much out of sync to the person we know.
          Her uncle and aunt who are estranged from her father have not been part of the manipulation…yet and maybe they won’t be, but my niece had to have known by requesting a get together with her other aunt and uncle and then not contacting us in turn would most certainly bring about some hurt feelings. My SIL who had her over said to me, “I meant to ask her what you two got up to this visit but forgot” and when I told her we didn’t even know she had been here both her and my brother were surprised as I’m the closest to our niece.

  18. Sydney,

    You found out last night your niece is in town. Give her the benefit of the doubt and be still for awhile. There are many reasons why she may not have contacted you yet, things do happen and I think patience on your end is wise. Give her another day or two and let her settle in in the meantime see if she calls or you or your sister. This will give give you time to think things through and will give you further insight.

    I know things like this are painful and cause us to react with our emotions when we need to step back, observe and not react. I would wait and see how things play out, for all you know she got sick on her way or any number of things may have happened.

    Patience is a virtue and in the end, regardless, will hold you in good stead.

  19. Sydney.

    I am sorry to hear that. I would still caution you to sit back and wait to find out what transpired. Then go from there. In all this and I know it is difficult, take the high road. Don’t say anything for now. If anything when the next chance comes up to send her a card or a note asking how she is, like happy Halloween, express your feelings of missing her. Tell her you love her and hopefully, next time she is able to visit you can reminisce and have dinner together. Let her know she is always welcome in your home, your are not the CDN nor is she.

    Leave it at that, just love her and extend that love. Believe me she will have many second thoughts if the CDN was working on her. On the other hand it is the CDN’s full intent to divide and conquer,. The CDN will hold who knows what over her head and dangle carrots. I just went through this with cutting ties with the Sis of mine who I cared for most of my life.

    I prayed and got counsel from trusted wise individuals who opined to cut the ties. In fact Lucy gave me sound, solid support in doing this. It was painful to let it go, in the end the best advise I could have asked for. I am now out of that triangulation and yes, I was smeared, but who cares. In the end you will have to let the niece go if that is what she so chooses and learn the her learn the hard way. Sydney, I know this is very difficult to do, it is also the most loving thing to do, let her learn the hard way, her way and pray she finds her way. You can always let her know you are there for her if she needs you. Keep in mind this can all become supply for the CDN in having everyone tugging and pulling for position.

    Take care of you Sydney and keep growing, live and let live. I hope things will work out but in this case, I see nothing but pain and sorrow for everyone until that ultimate work and change comes, unfortunately, it will be your naive who has the tough road ahead. She alone will have to look at the situation and realize how unhealthy it is including her thinking before she changes, if she ever does.

    Sydney, may I ask how old your niece is?
    Hugs

    1. BTOV, she is 23. She got engaged over the summer and I found out through my SIL. I sent her a message on her B/D and sent her best wishes on her engagement. I received a reply many days later saying thank-you and that was that.
      I can’t do anything more and I appreciate you and Joey advising to stay quiet. I think it’s best as well I just wanted to hear someone else say it. I’m so tired of internalizing this kind of behavior and beating myself up over stuff I don’t have any control over.

      I absolutely refuse to be in a tug of war and supply fodder for her CDN father. Yes, she will have to find out the hard way and we suspect the CDN father will try and get in between her and her fiance once they move to this very city.

      1. Sydney,

        Feel free to unload here, this is what this blog is all about, Support, Knowledge and helping each other grow and pull through crises and improper handling of the CDN who would otherwise tear us apart and consume us alive.

        She is young, I see the father tearing her relationship apart in the long run. Many times friends are way better than family, take heart and keep growing, become strong and inflexible to the CDN.

        Talk about it anytime, I feel this is only the tip of the iceberg in the beginning of the MF….Games that will begin once your niece move back. Joey, is right on in seeing what is transpiring. Take care of you and be mindful. I know it is a difficult stance to take, however, it is the most logical and wisest road for you to take.

        I am glad you see through all this.

  20. Hi Sydney,

    Sorry to hear about your niece distancing herself from you. If I put myself in her shoes, it might be a simple case of being burdened by feelings of divided loyalties. Whether her Dad is smearing you or not, it just makes for familial and social awkwardness.

    i agree that you should let it go. She knows her father lies and she will be back in your lives when she feels less divided, most likely. Hurts! So sorry you have to go through yet another rejection, however temporary it may be!

    1. LisaO

      I’m going to let it go, and now that I’ve put it out in the open I feel better letting it go.

      My nieces father is the CDN who propelled me to look for help. I didn’t know what he was until I came here and read Dr. Simon’s books. I could not believe how his vicious and vile mind works. My niece knows her father lies but she has told me “I will forgive him anything.” I caught her father smearing me at a family gathering the very day they reunited after a 3 year estrangement, and it was a reunion I had maneuvered at my nieces request. At the gathering they were whispering like two newlyweds, it was uncomfortable to watch and others noticed it too, it was very weird, he was telling her things about the family, the family who gave him support to start a new life here, and he smeared two of us to make himself look better in her eyes. I was incensed but I kept it together, I left the gathering and I went no contact, I wrote a letter to tell him that. His response was explosive and threatening.

      To be honest I think my relationship with my niece has been on borrowed time anyway because on reflection since I’ve completed the legalities regarding my parents estate he feels free to slime ball me all he wants. I’m tired.

  21. BTOV – they are brilliant! Reading and understanding narcissism and Cluster B disorders is really paramount but what it doens’t do is help us re-gather our own missing parts stolen during the abuse cycle. The Life Coaches do just that. They are empowering vs the therapists approach of victimizing the abusees. That helps nobody but the narcissist and further wounds their own patient resulting in tertiary abuse. Great! Life coaches assist are uplifting, empowering and encourage self partnering through uplevelling ourselves. They are pure gold!

    I see you have been squirelling away – busy storing nuts for the winter. I’m sitting here watching the grass grow and putting up additional blinds and shade cloth in order to prevent the blistering Oz sun from giving us all third degree burns in summer.

    High Five sister!

  22. What keeps coming to mind lately is chapters taught in the book The Four Agreements, honing in on the chapter Don’t Make Assumptions.

    The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom by Miguel Ruiz

    “The Four Agreements
    1. Be impeccable with your word.
    2. Don’t take anything personally.
    3. Don’t make assumptions.
    4. Always do your best. ”
    ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom

    If we don’t fully understand something, ask questions. Don’t assume. I always try to keep this one in my mind. Sometimes we have to dig deep to fully understand. Other times we don’t.

    JC, if you’re still with us, I haven’t asked questions of you, but I don’t understand your story. When you’re comfortable perhaps you’ll elaborate. I’m here to help in whatever way I can. I’ve not read a lot, don’t understand or don’t even really care to study in depth psychology, but what I do have is a good heart and load of experiences, good and bad, and have learned, through time, how to deal with life crises, learned to accept situations for what they are, and learned to turn away from people who hurt, or if I can’t fully do that, to set boundaries.

  23. JC

    Totally agree with Lucy. Want to add that parental Narcissism, perfectionism can create a fertile breeding ground for substance abuse. There are plenty of parents who have created a hostile environment that appears to be quite lovely…on the surface.

    Children who grow up with parents who have surface charm, and the convincing appearance of warmth, have a particularly tough time dealing with the ongoing rebuke, hostility and arrogance of the offending parent because it is always there beneath a veil of perfectionism.

    What substance abusers of this ilk should do is try to break the cycle. You will never be ‘as good’ (LOL) as your parent, nor should you aspire to be anything like them. They are character disordered, but YOU have a drug problem. Make a clean break from the parent. Don’t go into a spiral of trying to defend yourself. Get therapy, find friends, eat right, keep fit.

    At the same time, be compassionate with yourself while trying to find your inner strength. Your parent is the monster, all appearances aside…not you.

  24. JC,

    Meant comments about drug addicts in a general way–I have no clue if you are abusing drugs or not. But as far as having a perfectionist, controlling Narc mother..oh yeah…I am quite sure you do!

  25. Lucy/LisaO

    Brilliantly said by both of you. Lucy The Four Agreements is an excellent book, I read The Four Agreements and two others of Don Miguel years ago. It was one of the books I’ve given to “old mate” I take care of. He is improving but in reality I think it’s me in so much as the way I am seeing him now that I’m out of the fog of abuse – he’s still a pain in the ass but I’m seeing him in a different light. He is a frozen adult child stunted from years of childhood abuse and when he came into my care I was right in the thick of things you could say. It’s all on the up and up now :- You can’t teach an old dog new tricks but we can all immunize ourselves against rabies.

    Two of the most important things I’ve learned and come to accept is this. When it comes to abusers there is absolutely NO POINT in trying to hold them accountable for their behavior which in turn leads us to want to fight to create decency. This is actually one of the most pernicious aspects of narc abuse. That fight to create decency which they continually try to remove every shred of that is within us is the one thing we hold onto and defend. The more we hold on and dig in in order to be seen in the right light is what can actually damage and hurt us the most because we are actually partnering with them in their abuse of us.

    We just simply have to let go of the need to fight to create decency because it won’t happen – EVER we are just abusing ourselves in this respect. When I deal with a narc now I’m totally Grey Rock. In fact the nicer we are to them, the more appealing we are to them. Never smile at a crocodile. Be boring, monotone and unemotional.

    1. Eudoxia,

      Happy to hear you are making progress with your client. Good for you. It must be a little less stressful for you now. I find that I have a lot of patience with people who are disturbed if I am feeling physically well and well rested. But it is pretty hard to endure them if not in top form.

      And yes, never get into EVER trying to get anything like an admission of wrong doing, particularly from a perfectionist Narc. Not going to happen. And, as they are covertly aggressive, they can be slippery as heck in the way they evade, deflect blame and reframe to always come out smelling like a rose.

      It goes like this:

      Dodge, weave, step back…reframe…insult, back hand compliment, insult some more. Mix this with a dollop of compliments and end it on a ‘loving’ note.

      I am SO glad my father was merely a little brutal and verbally abusive– never the least bit subtle or manipulative. I’ll take a messed up violent weirdo parent over an oily weasle CD ANY DAY.

      Covert aggression is just a killer.

      1. Lisa if not up to top form! LOL you could say that for sure.

        When he came to stay with me, I was already in the thick of things going between my son and his brain tumor and Mum was dying and they were in two diiferent hospitals 100 miles apart. That was all after the daughter NSpath went into full demon hellcat mode and I literally walked away from my investment and ended a 43 year relationship with my best friend having been successfully recruited by my daughter as a Lietenant Flying Monkey – my sister was just used a blunt object. Then Mum died. Then I met the lover narcopath the week before her funeral – Prince Harming who went about his love bombing and I at that stage had no clue what love bombing was. Then the devaluation started after two months of soul mate bliss. My knight in shining armour turned in the blink of an eye into my nervous breakdown – the triangulation the smear campaign by the other party in the triangulation and to make matters worse I tried to save him thinking it was him who was being gaslighted by the other one! I am now certain he WAS FULLY RESPONSIBLE for it all. So it was one hit followed by another followed by another – yea you could say I was far from in top form! Yes and them old mate started pulling his shit. Yes I screamed at God once or twice until I realised and embraced this experience – it is a call to arms!

        I hit the study big time and had to find out all I needed to know about narcissists. Being an INTP (let’s use Jung) I pick the shit out of everything, I need to know how everything works. Now I do. Now I have fully constructed a narc self defense system where I will knock the living shit out of them if they come anywhere me. This is my promise to every narc who wishes to entrap me in their toxic tango – those days are gone.

        What really helped exponentially was getting inside HG Tudor’s dark mind. He’s NSpath and what he’s been pumping out is pure gold. He uses all these interesting narc acronyms – so I’ve created a few of my own.

        I totally agree with you in your other comment never let a good painful experience go to waste! Seize the moment! Charge forward! What doesn’t kill us makes us stonger eh?

        1. LisaO and Eudox,

          Just two great posts, you guys have me in stitches, not that any of it is in the least bit funny its how we deal with it in hindsight. What we had to go through to get to this point is sad. However, the enlightened wisdom we had to learn the hard way is a priceless we can use to help others. Totally agree, never again, forewarned is forearmed.

          Iv’e been in the heads of to many MNSP to purposely go there. I do take advantage of what I refer to as a “Specimen” if one happens along. It’s nice to put the shoe on the NSpat’s foot and leave them scratching their heads, and yes I will have to keep a pampers in my Survival Pac. I don’t suggest this for the faint of heart.

          Never let a painful moment go to waste. Just what I needed to hear, encouragement to press forward with some painful issues to confront right now. I’m not sure about the what doesn’t kill us part for me personally. I sure am exhausted and am waiting for the stronger part to kick in… Thanks for the battery charge up, have been running on reserve for some time now.

          Hugs to both of you Onward March Warriors of Truth

  26. Thanks Eudoxia,

    I’ve got the grey rock method down pat most days without even trying. Being boring is a skill one acquires naturally with age. LOL! Now you, on the other hand are SO full of fun, spirit and hijinx, and energyyyyy! I envy you! Truly.

  27. Lisa

    LOL thanks Lisa – man it’s been one hell of a journey I can tell you but it has been for all of us. I really see these baneful creatures as blessings in disguise – honestly. It allows us to see what is unhealed within us and being a huge proponent for self work and MAN KNOW THYSELF I just had to cease the moment and deal with my own shit. There was quite a bit there by the way that I did not know I had and that was what brought these experiences into my life – narcs are perfect mirrors to show us what is unhealed inside of us.

    When we can’t be triggered we know we are on the home straight. Talk about hijinx I got up to a few tricks this week-end. HD Tudor asked recently for people to write in with letters they’d send to their narcs so I obliged – totally grey rock all the way from start to finish. He posted it on the week-end LOL it was a hit it seems. Feel free to check it out, I’ve got another one on the way -wicked grin- He does so love acronyms I’ve invented a few of my own in the next letter.

    https://narcsite.com/2017/10/13/a-letter-to-the-narcissist-no-17/#comments

    Oh and Lisa remember – love the skin you’re in!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    1. Eudoxia,

      Liked your letter! And yes, the CD sadistic P who targeted me certainly highlighted what my vulnerabilities were- – my weaknesses and my strengths.

      I desperately wanted to love and feel I was loved in return. Everybody wants this, of course, but for me it had reached a stage of desperation, which I managed to cover pretty well….but he knew.

      Mine was a desperation for the kind of deep love that puts you back in touch with joy and innocence (for lack of better words). That is what he did for me. He opened the shutters on a bleak life and let the sun shine in.

      Then…without warning, he let out a banshee shriek, closed the blinds and nailed the windows and doors shut.

      The trauma gave me insight. I refused to let something as powerful as that kind of pain go to waste or turn me bitter. That may have been what he wanted. Instead I spight spiritual help to turn it around and am now devoting my life, to a large degree, to helping others who I can see have been damaged by having love withheld. Strangely, love alludes this type, so frequently…or they are red meat for predators. From my experiences I think I know what to say and often what to do to help turn things around for them.

      1. LisaO,

        All of this so eerily true, your suffering is unconscionable. The way it sounds is if he lured you in and when you gave your all he hit you on the head with a baseball bat and dumped you down the well hole (Grave) he had dug years ago leaving you for dead.

        The Spath’s are so cunning and clever, the perfect vampire, sucking your life force and filling you with their toxic lies. And when they decide, its time for your demise??? Indeed the predator they are the Spath sets out to kill you mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically and leave in desperate heartbreaking despair, the ultimate prize is for you to commit suicide. Believe me this is what the ultimate rush of supply is for these evil demons.

        You proved him wrong and survived. Maybe banged up and bruised with lasting scars, but nonetheless, wiser and stronger.

        What is wonderful Lisa, is you can love this deeply, many lack this capacity and what they think is love is just a shallow overlay of the real thing.
        Hugs Kindred Spirit and again thanks for the hearty laugh, the Depends are going in my war chest……

      2. LisaO
        It’s scary to know the man sought you out and played you like that. We sure do learn a lot having been involved with a twisted mind, don’t we? I’m glad you can now slot them and steer clear
        I have a friend who keeps attracting and dating CDs. She keeps asking me why they seek her out and how do you know someone is dishonest. She repeats it over and over again and doesn’t learn a thing from past experience.
        I can’t help her. She won’t seek counseling. It’s frustrating to watch.
        This site offers loads of help, even though we sometimes have varying opinions.
        I never quit learning. And it’s good to see someone such as yourself make it through and heal and in turn help. I’m grateful

        1. You guys what happened to Lisa and I are typical TYPICAL of the predatory nature of narcissists. This is what you don’t find in the fields of psychiatry and psychology.

          Joey – it’s important – really important you understand these stages if you are in the dating game now. You know the red flags and I have no doubt about that whatsoever BUT when the love bombing of a narcissist goes into effect – you will be defenseless. A neurobiological process goes into effect and you are defenseless against it. Truly – it happened to me, it sounds like it also happened to Lisa and when others who have been in relationships with narcs grasp these stages they will be able the relate their experiences to these stages as well.

          Stage 1 – Love Bomb/Seduction
          First they love bomb you – you think you have met your knight in shining armour, you do everything together, they shoot you texts and emails constantly, they tell you nobody they have ever met can even shine a torch to you, they use flattery, they indulge you they let you know you are the most special and adored person they’ve ever met and you are their soul mate – and we believe them because we think all our Christmas’s have come at once that God has blessed us and we have finally met our ideal love. They will go to no end to convince you they are the one, mine already had me meeting his parents within the first 2 weeks! This is the illusion they are just mirroring back to us all our good aspects of ourselves, they mirror back to us our very own natures. It appears at face value to be a Fairy Tale Romance happening to you! Oh the joy………………..drum roll

          Stage 2 – Devaluation
          This is when the golden period ends, they have you, they own you, they know you are now hooked and this is where their true natures come to play. This period is really insidious, this is when the abuse starts. The gaslighting, the silent treatments, the mind games, the subtle put downs/little digs, the backhanded compliments, the snubs, the word salad, the triangulations – their riposte grenades of sadistic cat and mouse – they are always keeping us on a hot tin roof – the beginning of the end. We actually boarded the roller coaster from hell when we first met them we just thought it was pink. It is not it is black.

          Stage 3 – Discard
          Ah the discard. You won’t know what happened. What did I do wrong, how could he leave me??? How could he throw me away like a piece of garbage? What did I do to deserve this? They will just give you the flick as soon as a new source of supply comes along. I actually didn’t get discarded, in fact he never broke off the relationship at all – I got no closure from it whatsoever. He sort of just devalued and discarded at the same time. Sometimes we leave them due to the abuse. A co-dependant will stay and if the narc sees that co-dependant as their IPPS they do have this symbiotic relationship you can be assured that as the co-dependant he/she will be the IPPS Intimate Partner Primary Source (of supply) the narc will always have secondary sources of supply hence the many affairs and flirtations of the narcissist.

          The discard is exactly what it says. Sometimes the IPPS will be a permanent fixture in the narcs life such was probably the case with Lucy and many others. Their marriage is a farce, it’s for external purposes only it’s a prop for their mask. They never loved you it was all just a facade. They are incapable of love. They are psychopaths.

          1. Sorry Lucy I diddn’t mean to imply your marriage personally was a farce. I meant it generally. Psychopaths are incapable of love.

          2. Eudox
            My marriage was a farce for many of the years. I was a perfect prop for the mask. I am what held him together till the end years when he totally fell to pieces. No one could help him at that point. Yes, I was used, abused. All that. I do believe there was love and caring at one time. He needed me I think – for something. Anyway, I’m really sick of trying to figure him out. I need to stop myself and not go there.

            What matters now is that I heal and move on and GET HIM OUT OF MY HEAD.

            On the brighter side — I feel my old self coming back. I can truly say I can feel joy again.

    1. I just watched this. I could have used those skills the years I was being gaslighted by the X. I didn’t understand what was happening, so didn’t seek help. If I were involved with someone gaslighting me now, they’d also be an X. There is absolutely no room in my life for toxic people. I’m not wasting more life. Bunch of sick jackasses out there. I’m so done with it.

  28. I just did my research on Grey Rocking and loved it. I have LC with a person that I cannot go NC with and I’ve used this method because I just don’t care what she says about anything, so I was “grey rocking” and didn’t even know it.

    I read a comment from someone who wrote, “be boring and even dress boring”, ah no thanks I’m not going that far.

    1. Sydney,

      I wrote that once and what was meant behind it was for the oppisite sex. For instance you meet a what appears to be a nice person. You begin to develop a closer relationship and the red flags start make there presence. Instead of rejection on your part, bore them to death, do anything to have them find you offensive, I said other things too, like eat lots of beans, don’t comb or brush your hair, talk off the wall, pick your nose and tell them your up to debt and bla, bla, bla. Talk nonstop about sin, I can guarantee, most of them will go running, if they don’t one has some serious issues to work on.

      This is just one way among a whole slew of others. I was being somewhat obtuse and thought we all needed a giggle. Grey rock is great strategy. I have used it many times on sneaky weasels that want to cause discord.

      One of the most disgusting habits of these creatures is to accuse one of using words one never said. I hate this below the belt tactic, the laughable part of it all, is, they are that ignorant they believe their own lies. Instead of cleaning up their act they project and gaslight on top of that.

      Yuk, what a way to start the week.
      Hooray, for Grey Rock!

    2. Sydney – you may not want to go this far either but heh I’ve tried it – they absolutely hate orange lipstick!!! It does their twisted heads in. Next time you have to see one just wear bright flouro orange lipstick and watch what happens next, it will provide you will untold entertainment – you will get under their skin -wicked grin-

        1. In all truth BTOV – I have no clue. I picked up the cue from a Sasha Stone Youtube – when I find it I’ll post it. It does work, their brains seem to not be able to register it it causes their brains to go “tilt”. I’m not sure why I just know it has this bizzare affect on them LOL and it is entertaining.

          1. BTOV – I assume so, I’ve never tried it on women. But Sasha Stone has and she says it works. According to Sasha Stone any absurdity seems to tick off a narc.

            I can see how it would actually – the narc will have already formed a fantasy in their heads as to how their day will go with them of course the center of attention. If you wear wacked out shit – it throws their fantasy clean out the door as they didn’t reckon on that – it left fields them. I am just assuming this is so and not stating it as fact – but it sure does make their brain go “tilt” and it is funny to watch -grin-

  29. Btov, you crack me up!!

    Yes, better than grey rock, repulse them to death! Most people consider body odour a bad thing, but it can act as an impenetrable force field too!

    How about a big box of Depends sitting in your entry way??

    1. LisaO,
      T
      hank you, you sweet dear. You gave me the belly laugh I desperately!
      Lisa, what is really great about this is you get the last word in and the fools don’t even realize they have been had.

      You know you can leave one of those fake curls in their vehicle some Efferent tablets. I did this once and the person said, I didn’t know you had false teeth. Yup, sure do, for 25 years now. Last time I heard from them(LOL). I have a few crowns (false teeth) otherwise I have fairly nice teeth. I guess I left that part out.

      The great part is, if they go around telling others this they will think they are nuts.

  30. Thanks for all of your kind comments about my horrid experience and your great ideas for throwing them curve balls! The P who rocked my world has been out of the picture for years…and I have been over it for years, but…I just happened to stumble on some of his correspondence yesterday. His words still have the power to amaze with their apparent genuine loving nature.

    And as for the orange lipstick, it sounds absurd but I get it, after reflecting on the P. He would be thrown off by things that others take in stride. His mental maps of others behaviour didn’t allow for wild cards.

    As he experienced others as objects, or robots, he reduced them down to a series of routines and subroutines. I remember him being completely flummoxed when his son tried to track him down by driving by his house. “He NEVER does that. I don’t get it,” he said. In fact, he had never done it BEFORE. it was very disturbing to him! Weird.

    This happened a number of times. The utter randomness of orange lipstick may have blown all of his reptilian synapses! If only I had known!!

    So you can grey rock, or you can rock their world by being repulsive or wearing very random clothing or makeup!

    1. Pretty much Lisa – anything out of routine throws them totally off kilter. They don’t deal in reality they deal in fantasy and illusion.

      “As he experienced others as objects, or robots, he reduced them down to a series of routines and subroutines”

      According to HG Tudor we are nothing more than appliances to them. Sources of narcissistic supply and nothing more. I encourage everybody who has been involved with any Cluster B creature to listen to Tudor – explore the dark mind of a narcissist/psychopath in depth, I have and have I learned a lot!

      1. Eudoxia

        Tudor and Vankinin are the same. They are selling you something. I listerned for 5 mins of tudor, I heard him lie and rationalize. In that that short time.
        He stated that the Narcissist CAN NOT EXCEPT BLAME DUE TO THEIR DISORDER. The Point is it is not CAN NOT, It is in truth WILL NOT. It is their willfullness that stops them. He continually says The Narcissist, They do not excist. Narcissism and the Narcissist are designations Not a diagnosis.
        All clust “B” disorders have aspects of Narcissism.

        NPD is a disorder that is diagnosed by trained medical practitioner.
        Not by Quaks on Youtube

        As posted at the top of this

        Personality disorders, at least in the DSM, are divided into “clusters” A, B and C, and there is often a lot of crossover between disorders within one cluster. Antisocial personality disorder and borderline personality disorder are both classed in cluster B.

        They all have narsissism as part of their thinking.
        This is why we are all here

        1. Joey,

          Yes I know all about the clusters, I studied psychology for quite a few years. I didn’t finish my degree but I was very aware of the disorders back then. Even then it does not get into the nuts and bolts of the narcissist as does being on the receiving end of them. No degree in psychology or psychiatry is going to give us more knowledge about them than by us being on the receiving end of them.

          As far as I am concerned Cluster A & C are caused by Cluster B. As far as Cluster B go I think Histrionic, A’Social and Borderline should all be sub types of NPD. I am also beginning to look at Borderline a little differently. It is more of permanent state of emotional dysregulation – a form of CPTSD – I really can’t say but there is something not quite gelling about Borderline being in Cluster B.

          You do get bleed overs from either of the other clusters into cluster B and there is your fragile narc. This is what I am seeing now.

          I’ve listened to many hours of Varknin and Tudor – I have personally spoken to Tudor. Tudor knows what he is – he doesn’t put blame on his disorder he says what he is predisposed to do and that he will never change not wouldn’t want to even if given a choice – he told me that personally. They do not think like us – not what so ever. You have to get into a dark mind to truly know what is in them. 5 minutes says nothing.

          The current system has lost the plot. Psychology needs to be majorly revised. We are long past the 1960’s and it’s time we moved ahead on more levels than just psychology. As the system won’t do it and has dropped the ball it’s up to us. We were all given intelligence some of us use it others prefer to go by what the authorities tell them and put their full trust in those authorities who have let humanity down.

          The DSM from start to finish needs to be archived and this needs to be revised by sane people who don’t pile the gauntlet of every human experience into a pile of disorders. Some of the so called disorders listed in the DSM 4TR which is the copy I have and I can tell you it’s well worn are absurd and laughable.

          Humanity needs to evolve itself and while there are people out there looking for all the answers from authorities like they are going to tell the truth. The entire system is psychopathic my friend.

          1. I used to attend my son’s psychiatric sessions along with him because he would lie so much. The psychiatrist wanted me there, even though my son wanted me out. Yes, we knew it was against regs, but the psychiatrist wanted my presence there, so it was.
            At one session the doctors says _____ is an enigma. He doesn’t fit into a box. And I really like him. And he smiles . . . .
            The doc was having difficulty diagnosing him, because you know the guidelines demand a diagnosis. He tells me: I don’t treat a diagnosis. I treat the symptoms.
            I really like this doc. And a plus was Trader Joes was right across the street! (I love to squeeze in an extra something good out of appointments).

          2. You have to get into a dark mind to truly know what is in them. 5 minutes says nothing.

            I simply ask the question. WHY would you wish to get into a dark mind to truly know what is in them

            5 minutes says nothing. It is long enough. The only thing I need to understand is why try and work out a disordered person. Just try and undestand my reasons for being there.
            It took me 47 yrs to break free. I have not looked back.

        2. Joey,

          Great post and Thank you
          I agree with you about Vacknin and Tudor and commented years back on what I thought of Vacknin. Both are using their twisted MNSpath parasitic minds to profiteer off the misfortunes of others, they intentionally wounded and murdered in thought, words and deeds.
          At the same time these parasites make a ridiculous amount of money exploiting ones vulnerabilities. I have to say I did learn a lot from Vacknin, I listened to several of Tudors you tubes and truthfully, I get that Gut Retching sickness in my whole being that screams to get away from them.

          What a blatant lie to say you can’t take responsibility due to their disorder, so he admits he has a disorder! You are exactly right, its not because he CANNOT accept blame it is because he/they WILL NOT!!!!! Every MNSpath I ever dealt with knew exactly how they were hurting and scamming everyone, while plotting, deceiving and strategising their next move, “PREMEDITATED” they could care less about anyone, except serving themselves, their personal God.

          It is pure selfish pride, toxic all consuming self righteous pride that stops these evil ones from owning up to and taking responsibility and living in peace and harmony with others.

          OK, lets say narcissism doesn’t exist, so what is it they do, how do you define their actions. Pure selfish conceit and entitlement, complete disregard for all human life except their own. The CDMNSpath’s use’s fear, confusion, guilt, shame and your innermost vulnerabilities to destroy anyone in their path to serve their sick needs and desires to satisfy their Master. The NSpaths Master being himself, yes they are their own sick Idol, they worship themselves.

          When we give credence and acknowledgement to these evil demons of deceit and corruption we unintentionally/intentionally support and build these sick monsters egos. We fund their resources to mislead the broken, the uninformed, and most of all to further educate lesser Spaths to be more savvy and covert in the destruction of others.

          Unfortunately, diagnoses in the DSM are to a degree an unknown science as their is no particular test such as Xray’s, blood tests etc., to support the diagnoses. However, when one displays all the blatant signs, symptoms, behaviors, dysfunctions and so on it becomes fairly clear to who and what they are. We can argue this point infinitude until the scientific field finds a conclusive way of testing. This is just a weaselly way out for the Spaths again not to take ownership.

          Remember all Psychopaths are Narcissists but all Narcissists are not Psychopaths. Sociopaths are another animal mix of the two and there is controversy in all sectors of science on the differences instead of recognizing these are all very dangerous, sick, toxic, manipulative, maladaptive people and it doesn’t matter what we call them.

          These people cause nothing but harm and heartache, they are liars, deceitful, betrayers, destroyers and consumers of parasitic living off other humans. Never forget you are their source of food. A narcissist that is not considered a psychopath does in fact kill humans in other ways. They murder your soul, destroy your life, destroy the lives of their offspring, and what has not come to light is the numerous suicides committed in the families of CDN. How many individuals diagnosed with mental and emotional disorders suffer at the hands of these monsters resulting in mental mind destruction equal to murder.

          As far as I am concerned these individuals lie cheat and steal, what makes you think they aren’t lying, cheating and stealing now? The MNSpath always has an ulterior agenda and it is one that doesn’t include caring about anyone other than themselves.

          BEWARE, to the uninformed treading into the SPaths territory, they are devious and will stroke your broken ego in anyway they can to re-rape the rape victim. Going into the lair of the Spath is a risky endeavor which you may deeply regret. There are many other venues to obtain answer than patronizing the exact thing you are trying to extract from you life.

        3. Joey

          5 minutes says nothing. It is long enough. The only thing I need to understand is why try and work out a disordered person. Just try and undestand my reasons for being there.

          Yes I know it took you 47 years to break free and I’m sorry that happened to you. For me it was very different. I was not raised by them so when I found myself entangled with them I did not register it as normal. I don’t think you had a choice in that matter. I did, so when I became entangled with them I removed myself from it quite quickly. I far from escaped undamaged.

          For my own healing I had to know what made them tick. I agree with you in so much as it does not matter what makes them tic in the end. What matters indeed is why we allowed it in the first place. I would go even further to say that why do we draw them into our experience. You had no choice here NONE. You do now.

          I am dealing with my own inner workings and making sure I am no longer an energetic match for attracting them to me any further and that my friend is my responsibility and mine alone. While that may sound “new agey” it isn’t it’s scientific.

          It all boils down to a neurobiological process going on in our brain which is kicked into gear by our emotions. Nobody can fix that except us – we just need to know how. I have found out how and that is what I am working on right now.

          We can only take what works for us and leave the rest.

          1. Eudoxia

            I new what was going on,from a very young age. The point is “BELIEF”
            Your gut is telling you one thing AND YOU CANNOT BELIEVE IT.
            That is why I use the Term THE MOTHER,THE GRANDMOTHER. The badges they wear. You see your mum, you want to see someone who loves and cares for you. THEY DO’NT.
            My uncle and cousin, worked this very basic fact out very quickly from their teenage years and whent NO CONTACT.
            Cut their Mothers out of their lives completely.
            The point is THEY GET BETTER AT THEIR CRAFT, THEIR THIRST FOR POWER. They get better at Hinding who they are and did so to the end. To world at large ” I AM THE MONSTER” Joey is the bad one I am evil. Not the mother,Not the Grandmother,Brother,His breed are all saints. I am the evil one.
            I am not and have never will be bad. I make bad desisions, I am not a bad person. I was Played good and proper, by a CALCULATING AND MANIPULATIVE PEOPLE who happen to be my family.

  31. The P who ‘loved’ me (sounds very James Bond, huh?) had slow speech patterns. He had other traits that I would describe as mildly autistic?

    Now most autistic people have empathy deficits because they don’t have a highly developed theory of mind. (I think). But…they have a willingness and capacity for sympathy.

    Their emotions are what I would describe as very primary, but their characters can be almost rigidly highly principled. Maybe as a form of compensation for emotional underdevelopment?

    Sometimes I wonder if there is a slight crossover in some individuals. That would be a very lethal combination. Jeffrey Dahmer seemed a bit autistic to me, when being interviewed and when I watch home movies from his childhood.

    1. LisaO,

      The autistic fall into another whole category. The autistic person I knew was not purposely unsympathetic to others, they did lack the capacity to understand and feel empathy. They do present with a muted lack of compassion. However, once brought to their attention they made a concerted effort to understand how the other person felt and treat them accordingly even though if was difficult for them to feel the others emotional feelings.

      They did not present as manipulative, purposely trying or not caring if they hurt another, ie., gaining N supply. Rather they functioned with a deficit they had to mindfully think about. They were self absorbed into their own wants and needs. Far different then the NPD, I suppose there can be a lot of misdiagnosis though.

      I understand there can be a crossover between the two. I don’t think this was the case with Dalmer, we go back to childhood trauma bonding with a detached and divided personality. This is where Eudox brings into play Dr. Mates theories which I think are valid on many fronts. Dalmer was coherent, and admitted he knew the acts he perpetrated were wrong, he didn’t care, again it was about Dalmer fulfilling his own twisted desires and needs.

      Just my opinion on the little I know in this area. Truthfully, the Spath’s are heinous evil creatures, nonhuman, this is where Dr. Scott Peck describes evil and I don’t know of any other name that fits. To think otherwise, one is setting themselves up to being victims.

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