Lies – Are They the Root of All Evil?

There are two main kinds of lies: the lies we tell others, and the lies we tell ourselves. Both kinds of lies can do great damage. Now, I’m not talking obout those “little white lies we humans all tell to spare those we care about unnecessary pain. We have no obligation to be bluntly and fully forthcoming when it would serve no constructive person (like when we truly believe that friend of ours looks absolutely hideous in the outfit thy’re wearing). But some lies do serious damage not just to other’s feelings but to the very fabric of our character. Some lies cut at the heart of the human soul. And that’s where the evil lies.

The Evil in Some Lies

I’ve counseled many individuals over the years. And many have engaged in behaviors that were harmful to themselves or others. Some didn’t really know or fully appreciate what they’re doing when they engaged in those behaviors. But others were fully aware and simply lied about it. Now, mainly we lie for two reasons: to avoid some negative consequence we anticipate or to help ensure get get something we want that we don’t think we can come by easily and legitimately. And while that’s bad enough, disturbed characters lie for more sinister reasons. Manipulators lie to protect the image they want to project – an image they know to be patently false. They do this to hoodwink others and avoid reckoning with their character shortcomings.  There’s a special kind of evil in such lies.

Truly Malignant Lies

Perhaps the most malignant lies are the lies we tell to ourselves and to others about the true nature of our intentions and actions. I’m not talking about “denial” here – that unconscious defense nature endows us with to protect us from unbearable pain. Rather, I’m talking about deliberately casting a false impression in order to maintain favorable appearances while knowinly doing unconscionable things. I can’t count the number of times divorcing partners falsely cast their determination to inflict pain and punishment on one another as only sincere concern for the welfare of their children. There have also been many instances in which a person cloaked their desire to wield dominance and control under the guise of merely caring too much. There is genuine evil in thise type of lying.

Lying and Human Nature

At a primal level, we are all animals with basic desires, instincts, urges, and raw emotions. And these primal characteristics of ours are not inherently evil. They’re a part of who we are. But because we are more than mere animals, we’re capable of functioning on a much higher plane. Before we can elevate ourselves to that plane, however, we must first “own” and then reckon with our baser inclinations. Of course, this is neither appealing nor easy. In fact the burden of self-reckoning is a “cross” we’re all called to carry if we’re to fashion a better world. But failing to accept this burden and instead lying about the flaws within ourselves is the ultimate evil.

The Truth Shall Set You Free

There is a saying that the truth shall make you free. But my years of dealing largely with the characterological messes people can make of themselves has taught me that the truth is also the way to make a person well. Long ago I came to appreciate the power of honest self-reckoning and the power of benign therapeutic confrontation. When truth is alive in the therapy room, more is at work than either the confessions of a client or the therapist’s attempt at conscientious guidance. Of course, therapists have to be sure their own psychological “baggage” isn’t getting in the way, too. That requires their own honest self-reckoning. But the truth is always where the power is in therapy. And for many years, I’ve witnessed the truth help many to be set free and made well.

There’s more to come on this important fourth “commandment” of sound character development. And of course you can find more on the subject in several other articles on the blog as well as in my books In Sheep’s Clothing, Character Disturbance, The Judas Syndrome, and How Did We End Up Here?

Sunday evening’s Character Matters (7 pm EDT, 6 pm CDT) will be a LIVE BROADCAST, so I can take your calls.  I’ll also be having a special guest with me talking about the importance of character in the workplace.  Join the conversation at (718) 717-8296.

55 thoughts on “Lies – Are They the Root of All Evil?

  1. Dr. Simon,
    Reading this topic leaves me speechless in that the evil these individuals perpetrate seem to be their own inner projections of hate, jealousy and envy. Ultimately, I believe it is their false pride that hardens their hearts to the point you can’t even reason with them.

    I am going to use the example of a CD sister that comes to visit my Sis that is the paraplegic I have talked about. I have been my sisters guardian for the last 10 years and have put few restrictions on any of the family members that take sis out. She does have several serious medical restrictions per the doctors.

    However, the CD sis is angry that I make the decisions for my sis, she has no idea of her medical issues and I have actively advocated for her interacting with her physicians during 6 operations and even slept in the hospital room for 6 weeks when they thought she would die. Only 3 of the 5 siblings visited on a limited basis.

    Recently, this CD sis started making Dr. appointments for her without my knowledge she went so far as to question my ability to advocate for my sis. Through all these years I have taken my sis to her Dr.’s appointment and have a good working relationship with all her physicians.

    This CD sis took my disabled sis out and left her in the car for 20 minutes in 90 degree weather. She tried getting out of the car and almost fell, a nearby person saw her and helped her back in.

    This CD Sis tells Sis her clothes don’t look right and to change. I could care less what she wears as long as she’s warm or needs a change.

    This CD sister forced shoes on sis’s feet when she had edema and pressure sores because slippers didn’t look right for the restaurant she was taking her too.

    Many other incidents have occurred, the CD sister sends sis outside to let the gas out of her colostomy bag, she can’t use her bathroom because the CD sis says its offensive.

    The recent episode the CD sis took her shopping and put in Sis’s cart what the CD wanted, not what my Sis wanted and Sis was paying for these items with her own money. My disabled sister also suffers from schizophrenia, and is very timid in sticking up for herself. She said to me “I felt like I wasn’t even there.” This CD sister has objectified and de-humised my sister. I have always told my Sis if someone doesn’t treat you with dignity and respect show them the door.

    We have regular 6 month meetings with social workers, nurses and care facilitators and my sis finally told them some of these things. Now I have after the last incident and there is more have to file a complaint with authorities for Elder abuse. This is not an easy thing to do and I am praying that this might be a wakeup call for the CD Sis. I do not want to limit the CD sis’s contact but at the same time the well-being of my disabled sister is what is important.

    I know this will stir up a lot of problems with the other CD siblings, but do you let the abuse go on or do you stand up and say No. I discussed with my mother who is a nurse and supports my decision. For to long this CD sis has perpetrated lies and now will be the time to be accountable or will the lies continue. I don’t know, it is all so senseless, all for power over a poor disabled woman that has suffered terribly all her life.

    I am so sick to death of lies, even small lies, white lies, I hate all of them, they are so damaging and they build on each other. I feel so sad for my sis and I feel so sad I have to report my CD sis. I pray that this might be the rebuke she needs to straighten out.

    This CD sis fabricated vicious lies about my taking care of my sis and they were untrue, in the end it was the Dr.’s and the facilities that were involved with some changes in my sis’s care and had nothing to do with me. The CD Sis looked like a fool, when I can’t be contacted the facilitator of the Nursing home makes my Sis’s decisions.

    It is like you said Dr. Simon ‘There have been many instances in which a person cloaked their desire to wield dominance and control under the guise of merely caring to much.
    There is genuine evil in this type of lying.’ My mother has warned me they want to harm me. Thank you for this article it makes what I have to do a little more palatable.

    In the end I always ask my Sis “What would Jesus do?” Her faith and my faith has been our saving grace and we have forgiven.

    1. BTOV,

      Just curious, what does your CD sis gains by putting in all those efforts? Is there an inheritance involved? If she wants to look good, then all she needs to do is lie, doing half-hearted work is expensive way to build an image. 🙂

      1. Andy,
        There is no inheritance for sis unless my mother dies but I am the sole beneficiary of all my mother’s assets. Hopefully, she will have spent all her money she supplements her pension with. Otherwise, I have asked her to will it to a charitable organization of her choice and if there are monies left after Moms burial I will divide it equally among all the grandchildren. My mom says I am her only responsible and trustworthy.
        I took care of my father too, no one showed up except for the reading of the will and my father donated it to the church.

        First, the CD Sis, was a JW for 15 years and they are very pushy people. The CD Sis accused her husband of molesting their 2 year old daughter, because the little girl she claims was putting 2 dolls together. This was investigated by the courts and nothing was ever proved except she caused such animosity between the daughter and her father there was never a relationship even though he paid child support for 18 years.

        The CD Sis has literally no friends and most the time her two girls try to stay away from her. The times I have been around CD Sis she is always right and expects you to agree with her. I prefer not to be around people like this because they are dangerous, their lies can cost one heavily and do irreversible damage. The CD Sis refused to even discuss when my Sis was critical in the hospital.

        It is best I don’t talk with the CD individuals, this way I truthfully, can say I have not talked with them in 3 years. This way they can’t lie.

        The CD Sis likes to go out to eat, she has no one else to do things with. For over 18 years this CD Sis had almost no contact with my disabled Sis. The CD Sis says I really have no family and the disabled one is all she has. The CD Sis has spread such lies about my mother she doesn’t want anything to do with the CD Sis either.

        The last time the this CD Sis tried calling my mother twice, because my mother didn’t answer she sent the police to her apartment. The CD Sis could had asked the disabled Sis if she talked to our mother lately (they talk every night) but she didn’t, the CD Sis called the Police. (Go figure)

        It boils down to control, power over one. In the meantime she is very jealous of other individuals. Why people pick such ignorant and unproductive methods to build an image is typical of the CDN. Lies and deceit turn into more lies and deceit, the sad part is the destruction they cause the innocent.

        Remember a few months back you wrote a conversation of the CD and family you deal with and asked if anyone understood what was being said and going on, and I responded I understood. Well, that is how looney some of the CD’s are that I have to deal with.

        A normal person that hasn’t dealt with this would say “this makes no sense.” Having dealt with it it still is senseless, but yes, we understand it.

        I hope I made sense out of this crazy making mess. It’s difficult to even trying to put the nutsism (I made up a new word) into words.

        1. BTOV,
          I guess your CD sister was too impulsive, and never once thought about the consequences. She was one nasty person who burned all relationships and everything around her. Now, everyone knows her for what she is and everyone stays away, so she has turned her attention to disabled one who does not have much choice. That probably is her thinking, get involved with someone to get narcissist supply from someone who cannot say no.
          I was just trying to figure out what could be selfish agenda behind a CD person taking care of a disabled person.

          1. Andy,
            The CD Sis is a for Jehovahs W and extremely controlling. This CD Sis influences the other 2 CD Sis’s that are real pieces of work. CDN are arrogant and when they let their arrogance take control they stumble and make mistakes. It’s very true just give them time and they will hang themselves.

            She underestimated the influence I have on my disabled Sis, and that is because I don’t lie to her. I tell my disabled Sis what she needs to hear not what she wants to hear and she thanks me for it.
            It’s not easy to discuss life and death situations and have to be the bearer of bad news. But I do it, no one else will. Therefore, she trusts me and I have never lied or deceived her about anything.

            You are right she does get her N supply in that regard, however, it is backfiring on her. When the CD takes Sis shopping she does the choosing, sets time limits and bosses her around.

            When two people go out and one individual says I feel like I am not even there, something is very wrong. My Sis always compares how I treat her. I have told her not to repeat this as it just causes more jealousy. Rather, I encourage Sis to exert her feelings and desires.

            It boils down to power over one and sad to say a person that is less capable to defend themselves.

        2. BOTV
          I feel for you. Staying away from the CD Sis is your only way to peace because surely she won’t change.
          Nutscism is a new word I’ll be using. Your poor mom, surrounded by nuts, except you.

    2. Sound like your disabled sister is some kind of trophy or doll to your CD sister.
      “LOOK AT ME I AM CARING. Now dress dolly in new shoes”

      It is’nt they are unaware, they just do’nt care.

      1. Joey,
        Yep, you are right, only thing is I stand in the way. So the CD Sis plots and plans. The last time she enlisted my Sis’s social worker. This gets good.

        My disabled Sis has had 12 major surgeries and after the last one she has said she does not want another surgery even if it means she may die. We have talked about this in great length with her doctors and this is her decision and I will respect it regardless of how others feel. If Sis changes her mind that is another story.

        So all my Sis sees the surgeon for is a routine followup.
        The last appt with the surgeon got cancelled because the facilitator scheduled transportation on the wrong day.
        The next appt got rescheduled because regular doc returned from maternity leave.
        The next appt I was sick.
        The CD Sis filed a complaint with disabled Sis’s social worker claiming I was jeopardizing my Sis’s health.
        The Social W made and appt with disabled Sis’s primary doc, picked her up and took her to the doctor and made all these purported accusations. The doctor told her he could not talk with SW and to contact the courts.
        My disabled Sis called me and told me what transpired, the doctor was so upset he wrote a complete one page narrative of what the Social worker said and did.
        The Social worker was fired,it was against the law for her to do this. The doctor is sent a copy of all doctor visits and is aware of my sister desires and I have dealt with these doctors for 10 years.

        In the end the CD Sis stayed away for a month. Now trouble again, what is good my disabled Sis is standing up to her. Sis says you always tell me the truth and the CD Sis lies, and she hate the White Lies too, she said I know they are lies and I can only deal in truth.

        Anyway, what an ugly mess the CD create, they all fight amongst themselves but when they need to they will group together to come after you. I have a great working relationship with all my sisters doctors, I have a great working relationship with the facilitator at the Nursing home and he knows what they are up too. I consult my mother in many of the decisions for my sister in that she is her closest of kin and due that respect. I have a good rapport with my Sis’s visiting nurse and the Pastor at her church.

        I get along well with my neighbors, and the our police department and they all watch my home for me. In the end the CD do make their own beds, what is sad is the destruction and harm they can ad purposely cause others if they can get away with it.

        Importantly, their destructive behaviour is based on LIES and half truths and omissions of the truth. To me it is just another form of LYING!!!

        1. Joey,
          It’s been some time since you left. How are you doing?

          Also, Andy, Joey, any input on this would be appreciated and I hope I made sense.

          1. BTOV
            Watch your back. These accusations will continue behind your back.
            This happened to me. LISTERN ,THINK,RESPOND. CD is after praise and admiration. Sounds like ENVY may be present.Emphathy deficient, Emphathy devoid CD
            It happened to me. They cannot care for anything ever.

            P.S Did you catch the latest interview with DR SIMON. I Did post the link. IT IS GOOOOOODDDDD

          2. Joey,
            Yes, I did watch it and I highly recommend others to watch.
            Thank you for reminding us, with so many things distracting us it really is a blessing. I watched the Fallen You Tubes and many more, I also watched more of the You Tubes by the woman who interview Dr. Simon. I usually try to watch and or read any links you post.

            Yes, I will have to guard against them, I know she is Jelous of me, thats exactely what my disabled Sis said. It is wonderful that she is standing up for herself. I try to deal in truth always and it has never failed. This is the weapon one must use. The problem is like Dr. Simon said in his last Topic – Lies are an Epidemic in our society and I have to be careful because how they will twist the truth.

            This particular CD Sis has evil intent and she will make up malicious lies. So far I believe God has sent his angels to watch over me. I have 2 more SIs’s and these are far more evil. I may talk about them later, that is why I warn about these dangerous and evil and I have no other word to use but evil.

            There is an excellent book which I have recommended many times call People of the Lie by: Dr. Scott Peck (Psychiatrist) now deceased. I believe Dr. Peck would have been proud of the work Dr. Simon is doing and they would have conversed.

            God bless you Joey and really appreciate and will heed your warning me, I appreciate your concern and I will try to stay vigilant. Thank you for all you bring to the forum, especially, the beautiful poems. The poems shed a whole different light on what we are discussing and are uplifting. I hope you keep sharing. If I may ask who is your favorite writer?

          3. BTOV,
            You make perfect sense. Completely understandable.

            And you are right about Lies. Half truth, omission of the truth, they all are just variant of lies. I will just post a separate comment with example on this.

  2. Hi Dr. Simon,

    I’m a big fan of your work, and I always look forward to your emails and articles.

    I hope you don’t mind me mentioning that there are some errors below; as a proofreader, I can’t seem to help but notice! If you ever need anyone to review your emails before they go out, my rates are very reasonable, and I’d be honored to work on such an important subject.

    Keep up the great work!

    Kind regards, Lynn

  3. There have also been many instances in which a person cloaked their desire to wield dominance and control under the guise of merely caring too much. There is genuine evil in thise type of lying.

    Gifts,Gifts,Gifts. They were NEVER ment to help. I was a doll in a dolls house. I was paid and played all my life. Never paid rent,house keep. Challenge her. Like ask her why did you try and stab me. There’s the door, want your space not your company, forget were to come will yer, pay a few bills will yer. No money, nowere to go. Offer payment always refused. It was a trap that maintained control. Connived by my the grandmother and the mother. After loosing control of my uncle and my the grandmothers sister (my aunt E) her son packed up and whent no-contact.

    1. Andy, Joey,
      Thanks for your thoughts on this. I know this is only the beginning with this CDN, how vicious she gets only time will tell. The sneaky manipulating is already starting with promise of gifts. It gets exhausting having to deal with these individuals. All I can say that the best protection for me and has been NC with them of any sort. I otherwise, will do something in writing or ignore them.

      I am in a position to help my Sis and also get assistance from the church. The only problem with the church at times is they don’t understand the dynamics of the CDMN that is when things can get problematic in that respect. Since I have full authority over her care there is nothing short of them taking me to court and petitioning for another Guardian.

      In doing that they would have to prove I did inappropriate things with my Sis or was negligent and that won’t work. What they can do is plot to harm me physically outside of my residence or do damage to perhaps, my property or vehicles. My mother already warned me of this.

      Thanks for warning me too, Joey, you are right and they are evil. I don’t know what else to call it, there is no other name but evil. The only thing that helps me is they are afraid of me. I am not afraid of them, however, my gut and my whole being says never go near them.

      I could tell you stories of the other 2 CDNSP Sis ‘s but will save that for later.

  4. In my opinion, lies are at the root of evil. Problem is not one single lie. Problem comes when one starts with a little lie, and does not acknowledge it as seriously wrong behaviour. Sooner or later that lie starts to come apart, then liar will put one more lie, and start to believe that too. Then, one more, then more and more. Eventually liar cannot really distinguish truth from lie, and develop such impaired conscience believing his lies over a period of time that he cannot distinguish right from wrong, and that is where evil lies. It is not the issue of one lie, it is a lie combined impaired conscience, and it is a whole life spent lying that leads to evil.

    Character disturbed people have mastered the art of lying. I remember one example in the book where as person who went to anger management or alcoholic treatment workshop for few sessions and claimed that “doctor talked to me and told me that I need not come” implying that he does not require treatment. Whereas in fact, he created problems in sessions and counselor told him to contribute constructively or keep silent and do not contribute all at all.

    I have several such examples dealing with my batch of CDs, telling them all will get too specific.
    In one specific instance, one of the CD complained to one of my acquaintance (of course, behind my back) that “Even his uncle advised, but it did not help”.
    From the context of discussion acquaintance understood it as, “Even his uncle advised HIM, but it did not help” implying that I was to blame for problems.
    Whereas the truthful statement will be, “Even his uncle advised HER, but it did not help”.
    Amazing. A crafty liar will just omit one of the word, and put is across in such a manner that whole meaning is completely switched.

    Problem is such a liar cannot be talked to or reasoned with. They do not need help. They do not want help. And, over a long period they just become worse and worse.

    1. Andy,
      Very well said. It sounds like we are dealing with one and the same, different faces and names, in the end the same CDN and their deceitful lies. The sad part is how their destructive behaviour injures innocent people, they abuse and harm to feed their selfish desires, wants and needs.

      Pastor talked about this in church and asked for replies and it was a resounding consensus a lie is a lie no, matter how you word it. The best part was pastor asked a young boy that question first. The boy replied “Sir it doesn’t matter how little my fib God knows I am lying.”

      May I ask how long before you make your decision? I am so sorry that you have to go through this and I feel for your child. Thanks for your input.

      1. BTOV,
        Decision is pretty much made. I have filed for divorce. She needs to file response. One last chance for her to come around. But, I am sure she will first play her victim card… creatures of habit.

        1. Andy D,

          I hope the divorce proceedings go swiftly for your sake. From what I remember you have a young child together. I wish you the best.

          1. Lucy,
            I will get to know in few weeks time how things will go in court. She did sent a non-binding legal reply that was full of false accusations and veiled threats. I suspect that was just threatening gesture that time. Submitting something similar in court is a different matter.
            One thing for sure, what she claims in court will be a totally different story: on one extreme she will refuse to show up, and on other extreme she will accuse me of child molestation and what not. Expecting her to do right thing, i.e. either try to make amends or go away in peace, is simply false hope.

  5. I cannot lie. I can count with 1 hand the number of times I have lied in my life. These are little white lies to protect others. Over-developed conscience and overbearing superego. I am at a disadvantage when dealing with psychopaths. Therefore, I need to start lying to even the playing field. I have just come to this conclusion: It is OK to lie to liars, psychopaths and predators. This is adaptation for survival.

    I just read something that will prevent me from being preyed upon again: You must be rude to psychopaths because if you are polite and avoid offending at all costs then you will be targetted as a potential victim.

    1. Iseenow,
      Lying will be wrong. And, from practical point of view, you are playing a liar’s game, he is pro, and you novice. Just figure out who will win.
      Better is to take care of yourself. Set boundaries. Just start saying “No” to things that you do not like. That is assertive and right behavior. And, it will work much better than rudeness.

      1. Iseenow,
        Andy, has given you some words of wisdom, don’t play their game, truth will prevail, set strong honest boundaries and say No. Don’t stoop to their level, you have the right to not engage and walk away.

        1. Sometimes it is not possible to walk away forever. The best word that describes me is ‘librarian’. I am kind, honest, polite, helpful and meek. Psychopaths zero in on me very quickly. They know that I will not retaliate or fight back; I will just remain silent and walk away, I have to change. They expect consistency from me. They can predict that I will act honourably and with empathy and forgiveness. Be unpredictable to throw them off in the same way their behaviour (rudeness) shocks us into muteness, unable to respond.

          Be rude, inconsistent, fight back and lie if that strategy will knock out the psychopath and persuade him to hunt elsewhere.

  6. I can’t stand being lied to. Once lied to the trust is gone. You never know what is true, half true. My daughter lies to me when she just doesn’t want to deal with me. It’s easier for her to lie than fess up and deal with the consequences. Mostly, I think she just doesn’t want to hear my mouth. Still, it’s no excuse. People need to face up to their wrong doings. Lies in a relationship can make a good trusting relationship go south. Who has time to try to figure out what is truth, what is a lie? It’s life time waster. The more I deal with CDs the less tolerant I become of people with bad character traits, and lying being a huge red flag to step away from.

  7. “The Art of Lying” – The Jerk’s deposition is upcoming and he lies on top of lies on top of lies. He knows all the tricks. Half truths, staying silent, answering a question with a question, answering a question with an accusation, not answering and going on the offensive, counter-attack to avoid a question, walking out of the room to avoid answering, leaving the house to avoid answering, faking being angry in order to avoid answering, yelling and trying to intimidate to shut down a conversation with questions. My counselor said that he is the MOST EVASIVE PERSON SHE HAD EVER MET IN HER ENTIRE PRACTICE. And I married the jerk. I thought being married to this man was bad. Trying to divorce him is a nightmare, to say the least.

    1. Neh. He doesn’t know all the tricks… he can also threaten to commit suicide when you ask question. But he is now sure that if he uses this trick, then you will actually cheer him on. 😀

      1. Andy D

        Yeah I’ll cheer him on. His day is coming . . . . . wish I could film it. “So, Mr. SB, why do you have charges of four hotel rooms, all in different locations throughout the city, on the same date, along with ATM withdrawals of several hundred dollars at three separate ATMs throughout the city?” (This happened regularly for about two years, hotel bookings of one up to seven a day). “Um —– Those weren’t my charges! Um —– my wife must have booked those! It must be a mistake. Ummm . . . . I was giving homeless people shelter! Ummmm —- Your Honor, I don’t feel well. May I take a break?” How can he possibly answer? I’d write a book if I weren’t afraid of being sued — by him — I’d never be rid of him.

        1. Lucy,
          And the plot thickens, be prepared for anything with him. What you will be amazed at when you finally get to court is Scum Bag will have no shame. Don’t be surprised if the things he has done SB will accuse you of.

          SB knows all the deceitful tricks of the trade and he will use everyone of them. SB will lie,lie, lie because SB is a lie. What a hideous caricature of a man he has become.

          You honesty will hold you in good standing. I know its hard because people wonder “what on earth was she doing with him?” I had people ask me that too. Over the years THE LIE, The False Self,
          THE LIE (CDMN) morphs and rots and is ultimately transformed into something so recognizably evil. and in the end the CDMN is consumed alive by their own evil minds.

          The unbelievable horror of THE LIE.

  8. Andy D,

    I keep a diary at my desk and enter dates and occurences almost daily. It has really come in handy. Just short notes of what’s going on. It will refresh your memory when the time comes in court. Your divorce will certainly have big issues and you’ll need some sort of record keeping. If she’s one of those crying wolf with her kids, she’s a special kind of demon. Stay strong my friend.

    1. Andy D,
      Lucy is giving you good advice on this, I wished I had but it all became so surreal I couldn’t keep up with it. I did quite a bit of journalling .. I don’t know her age, I know the CDN Sis’s I have only got worse with age. I don’t know which one is worse each has their own particular twisted set of traits and extreme distorted thinking.

      I just talked with someone and they said “come on they are your sisters.” Uh Huh, and because of that I should open my doors to abuse. I like being divorced from them and love my solitude. I am sorry for the days you have ahead of you and the clan ties may intensify.

      Be prepared for anything. I told you what the CD Sister did accusing the husband of molesting the child. My older brother who is a JW too, is good friends to this day with the father and believes the Sis fabricated the lie to keep his daughter from him. I believe she did lie, considering the lies and problems I keep running into with her.

      I hope you live in a state where it is perhaps, a little easier to get a Divorce. I don’t doubt she is going to make problems for you. Hopefully, if she finds a BF to think about she will want the D too and will make it easier. Wishful thinking, the CD love making mischief and don’t care as long as they think they can make you miserable and get even. No doubt she will have her vacuum cleaners running and will want to drain you dry.

      It takes a lot of courage and stamina to stand up to these malicious, vile replicants and they will exhaust your energy. I hope you have a good support system in place. I admire your tenacity to have stood your ground all this time and I expect it will be long haul. Take good care of yourself Andy.

      Blessings

      1. Well she is the sort of crying wolf with her kids. And, I live in a country where divorce will take a while, if she decides to drag it on. So, I guess I need to be ready for a long haul. If that is what is needed to get out of a mess, then that is what must be done, for long term benefit. One thing that is unacceptable to me right now is fall again to excuse-making guilt-tripping tactics. I think I was quite immune to shaming, but I fell for rage-excuse-guilt cycle. 🙂
        I do have decent support system.
        Thanks for advise on notes. I have some from past. I now plan to build a file of major incidents, backed by evidences. Daily journal will not be needed unless I need to make several trips to therapist along with her. Or, maybe I do need that journal keeping anyways, as and when child visitation is arranged.
        She already had vacuum cleaner running. I did not notice it running for sometime. And, when I did notice it, it led to fights. She already has more than her fair share.

        I agree, her first objective will be to make me miserable. No point in worrying about it too much. After all, this too shall pass.

        1. Andy,
          May I ask what your law are for you state and how many years you were married? I know most states will require you to go for counseling because you have a child. I don’t doubt her true colors will show and it would be wise to keep a journal of what she does. I wished I would had kept track of more. The transcripts were helpful.

          In all this try to keep records of how much time you spend with the attorney and if there are things you can do yourself. She will be difficult I don’t doubt just to run your attorneys fee’s higher.

          Is there anyway you could get joint custody? Where you have your child as much as she does. No doubt she will use the child to get even with you. Hopefully, your child will develop your values. I think you said you have a girl and girls love their fathers. You can be an asset in her personality development the same as a boy. I hope she doesn’t try to destroy the child especially with all the CD individuals in her family.

          I hate to say this when she finds a boyfriend your child will take on less meaning for her and will become more burdensome. To bad you can find a good person to help you with care of your child. I hope living in the country isn’t a burden on you too, its a great place to live. I live in the country too on a lake so it is very peaceful and nice.

          My neighbors wife just filed for divorce, they have 2 boys. She waited to just over the 10 year limit and took him for half of everything he had and she never worked. What he is losing is really sad and he is a good man too. I gave him one of Dr. Simons books ,How Did We End Up Here. I have to buy some more books and give him Character Disturbance or do you think In Sheep’s Clothing is better? I give the books away all the time if I think they may help.

          I hope if something comes up you vent and throw your problem out here it may save you from going to the Dr. or Atty. Know that we are all here to support you and will share as much about our experiences as we can. Just don’t trust her to act decent about anything. It is also important to know what laws your state has. I think their are individuals here that can share info on how the process goes instead of spinning your wheels on unnecessary things the courts could care less about. My state is all about $$ division, we were to gather 30 years and I had higher income, its all about dividing. You have a child and that will be a big factor.

          I truly am sorry for everyone that visits this site and we hear the stories or what these selfish Lying CD individuals do. How selfish they are and not caring about the destruction and despair they leave behind. In fact she will feed off of making you as miserable as possible.

          I am glad you took this time to educate yourself and build up your endurance for this battle. Please let us know what goes on, we care and will support you all the way. Truthfully, I was afraid to post that he would find out, I only read the blog. Looking back I would had saved my self a lot of misery,money, time and resources and gained far more knowledge if I had asked questions about my circumstances to other posters.. I hope we can be of help.

          You take care Andy and be good to yourself, I don’t doubt this will be difficult.

          1. BTOV,

            When I said country, I meant a country different from America. So, I have quite different family legal rules here.

            In my opinion, “In Sheep’s Clothing” is best first book for gifting, especially if I feel that someone is getting manipulated by a crafty bugger.

            I know she may attempt to make me feel miserable. But, being miserable is my choice.

            Thanks for all the inputs. I think I will get to notes making. I am very sure, just stating “On date X, time Y, this and that” is much better than “Somewhere sometime, something something”.

            Anyways, I will know in few weeks, what direction she takes. I wouldn’t be surprised if she cries, but that is a remote possibility for her as she has very very hard time conceding anything.
            I am not so much concerned about court etc, as that clears the path, and I will know how that will end.

        2. Andy D
          I have worked in the court system for 30+ years. When it comes time to attempting to have telephone conversations with your child, it would be a good idea to write a note of date when attempting to contact and a little note of if telephone contact was granted or not, duration maybe, and if mom steps in to end the conversation. These little tidbits of information help the court determine if mother is trying to isolate you from your child. It’s the custodial (the one with physical custody) parent’s obligation to help promote the relationship of child and non-custodial parent. And as you say, note taking for visitation issues exchanges and issues. I feel for you. These issues can certainly wear a person out emotionally.

          1. Andy D,
            If you don’t mind my asking, You say her kids, does that mean she had other children previously besides your child? I know you said this to will pass. The time it takes to pass can be an awfully long time.

            My neighbor who is going through a divorce, I really feel for him, she is a real piece of work. My neighbor lost 40 lbs so far over this. Since I am by myself I think when I make soup and chili I will send some over for him. I don’t like just cooking for me anyway, he is such a nice guy, it really makes you sick.

            I ended up talking with her and what she claimed he did and her reasons for divorcing this nice guy made me sick. I thought she needed the one I had, that would give her something to complain about.

            Be careful Andy, Lucy, is right about keeping track of everything with these kind. Your notes will carry a lot of weight if you need them. I have heard in dealing with the children the CD get really out of whack and controlling. A doctor I know his X CD wife would file complaints with the courts if he was 5 minutes late just to cause trouble and more court appearances and attorney’s fees.

            If anything it might be best to deal with her by putting everything in writing, being understanding and kind can cause you a lot of trouble. When the gig is up with these CD people they will stop at nothing to try to cause trouble and make your life miserable.

            Will keep you in my prayers Andy, I really feel for you.

          2. BTOV,
            No. She doesn’t have prior marriage or children.

            I don’t think she can make me miserable by doing something directly to me. But, I am quite sure she will not mind using her own child: the usual stuff like father alienation, feeding lies, creating obstacle in phone/visitation etc.
            You are right that I should keep a thorough journal for this. It will be quite useful later.

        1. so talk about yourself mam…why are you here then?
          anytime I hear ‘you people’ my psycho radar goes bleep bleep

    1. Andy D,
      I didn’t realize you are in a different county, just like Joey.

      There is something the police departments and investigators use.

      It’s the Who, What, Where, When, How. There may be more to these but when the protocol is used it makes writing a narrative easy and thorough. I guess I could look it up later as I will need to do this with the CD Sis I am dealing with.

      Thanks, I will get Dr. Simons first book. All of them are so good. I hope we all can make your coming D and problems a little easier. If I ask questions it is so I have a better idea and insight of what your situation is and offer then to offer input. I think this holds true of all of us who want to help. My heart goes out to you and your child.

      Blessings Andy and I and admire how you have handled your situation thus far, it makes you a better person and defines your character as a human being. (((((Hugs))))

    2. joey,
      So True! I think of so many things you have shared in regards to your family, it has been helpful in many of the things I am dealing with in mine. Thank you
      ((((Hugs)))) Kindred Spirit way over the sea! We are not that alone!

  9. Hi everybody,

    I have just flown back from visiting with one of my brothers. He left his wife and moved as far away as he could. Alaska! More on that later.

    As far as dealing with psychopaths, you have to be able to spot them, first. In a retail environment, it would be hard to tell if someone is merely annoying or has the very worst of personality disorders. The, ‘I could just tell. I can feel it,’ after a brief encounter, happens only a few times in a lifetime. I have felt it twice in my life, where I felt it was a certainty and that I was in danger. I would definitely lie to wiggle out of any contact, if I had to.

    Say, for example, you are a seamstress and you get a finicky irritable customer, who gets your back up. Would it be wise to lie with impunity to deal with someone you have now identified as a psychopath? Probably not.

    It is more likely you are engaging your own zeal for drama, arrogance and thinly veiled hostility, to someone who may need patience and a reminder to be civil. So, in that case, who has the worse problem and who is lying under the pretext of somehow ‘protecting themselves.’

    On the other hand, when dealing with a very self centered, abusive, lying spouse, it might be necessary to act in a stealthy manner to get away from them.. And acting stealthily, might include lying…and lying in a big way. This is probably not a bad idea. You definitely want to remove yourself with great haste from any situation that involves telling one whopper after another just to get by though.

    1. LisaO
      I believe there are instances where being truthful can bring harm to one when dealing with certain characters and there are instances where one needs to exercises self preservation where lies might be necessary. But all in all we should do our best to be truthful and honest.

  10. Lucy,

    For sure! I wasn’t addressing any of the frequent posters here who have all gone through or are going through situations with one or more severely disordered monster.

    My remarks are directed to those who are happy to lie to people who are merely annoying, referring to all disagreeable types as psychopaths.
    If they had ever had to deal with an actual sadistic narcissist or psychopath, they would be in for a big surprise. It isn’t a label to be thrown around with gay abandon, or as an excuse to deflect blame from one’s own deficits.

    1. LisaO

      I agreed with all you posted. The easy way out off difficult situations is to lie and I admitting done it just because I didn’t feel up to the challenge of being honest, nor have the energy to deal with situations.

  11. Lucy, I have lied too, like you. I have lied with malice of forethought in an elaborate and carefully planned attack to teach a sadist a lesson how it feels to be blindsided by a deception.

    I have lived many many decades without ever feeling the need to lie other than the occasional courteous white lie.
    I have mixed feelings about what I did. Had I not known for sure that the sadist had acted in a premeditated fashion, I would not have proceeded. A great deal of planning, soul searching, plus examination of ethical considerations took place before I acted. So I am not lily white by any means.
    It is one thing to be messed over by people who perceive us as obstacles. That’s horrible, particularly when it’s ongoing. But to be targeted, because you are in emotional pain by a person who enjoys the power rush of causing even more emotional pain is something most people aren’t familiar with.

    I don’t advocate deception but some circumstances are so uniquely horrid they need to be addressed with whatever tools the victim has at her or his disposal, within the law, of course.

  12. For Americans,

    I was browsing through international news and stumbled upon a video that clearly shows Hillary Clinton shifting her position (basically lying) as per her convenience at the moment. It was not a case of shifting opinions as people grow, but clearly a case of taking whatever is most convenient position to achieve the current goal. And, now a days, she wants to be president.
    On the other side, Donald Trump really does not leave anything to doubt.

    Politics attracts power hungry mob, but democratic system still filters out clear misfits. That seems to have failed this time. American people are really spoilt for choices… between covert-aggressive selfish liar, and overt-aggressive narcissist liar. 🙂

    PS: Don’t want to start a debate. Just watched a Clinton video declaring her liar, and that resonated with latest post here.

    1. Andy D

      You’d think better choices would be available, wouldn’t you? This year elections are the strangest I have yet to see. Not only strange, but scary, downright shameful.

      1. Lucy,

        I just wanted to highlight smooth liar vs loud-mouth liar match this election seems right now.

        It seems to be that both candidates are disliked, so there is a possibility of a new choice surfacing at later stage. 3rd candidate, even if he wins, will at best start off as an underdog “won because other lost”.
        I guess institution (govt machinery, bureaucrats, non-govt large bodies) will have moderating effect, allowing a bad candidate to scrap through 4 years without doing much damage.

  13. What’s strange, too, in terms of the terrorist attacks in Europe, is it seems that the NATO intelligence apparatus is failing, as well.

    There is so much subterfuge, deception and confusion involving the Middle East and terrorism now, all around, that it is hard to delineate what is going on, exactly.

    It is clear to all, in retrospect, that the war in Iraq was based on lies and that the president at the time, though a convenient target for outrage, was not in charge of a plan that had been arranged prior to his presidency.

    The entire global political scene is resting on a bedrock of deception and has been for a very long time — since Kennedy. It is abundantly clear now with both Clinton and Trump vying for a position that would make one of them, ‘the leader of the free world’.

    But that is the biggest deception of all. The presidency of the U.S. is a very weak. The president has become mere figurehead who rubber stamps anything their campaign fund backers want.

    I feel for Americans. The future is going to be murky because you are living in the age of lies. It plays out on the world stage just like it plays out in it he interpersonal familial realm. And when ‘face saving’ cultures are involved. Oh dear. In Islam, for example, saving face is paramount and more important than honesty.

  14. Determination is the greatest power on Earth. Intelligence is important, but it doesn’t hold a candle to sheer force of will. Passion; a burning desire to achieve a goal, is far more a indication of success than any other metric Ambition is king, everything else takes second place

    Intelligence is important in giving direction to determination.

    That is why there are a lot of psychopaths and narcissists in places where they shouldn’t be.

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