Why Narcissistic Bullies Really Taunt

Bullies are Narcissistic

The dominant thinking about bullies has dramatically changed. We used to think bullies were inwardly insecure and cowardly. And we thought they were driven to belittle others to feel better about themselves. But we now know differently. Bullies are narcissists, although not all narcissists are bullies. And they have the “grandiose” type of narcissism. That means, they really believe themselves superior. Feeling that way “entitles” them to prey on the inferior.

Bullies often taunt their victims. And they sometimes provoke in a manner that seems nonsensical. So, why do they do it? The old thinking said they do it to “prove” they’re not the cowards they really are. Or, they do it to overcome low self-esteem. But the  new thinking says something quite different. And the Accam’s Razor rule also applies. That is, the simplest explanation usually fits best. They do it because it feels good. And they get plenty out of it. They experience an adrenaline rush. And they find fighting itself invigorating. So, they provoke fights.  Moreover, as narcissists, they lack empathy. So, they don’t care about hurting anyone. Nor do they care about the possible collateral casualties of their fights.

A True and Telling Story

Early in my career I witnessed an event I’ll never forget. I was observing a group session in an adolescent treatment facility. A young man was flicking his finger at the earlobe of someone seated in front of him. The person toyed with often turned to express his displeasure. He sent many nonverbal messages for the taunter to stop. But the young man just kept on.

I brought this event to the attention of the treatment team. I felt it bespoke a pattern of conduct. And I felt it said a lot about the young man’s character. I remember well all the conjectures my colleagues made. “He struggles with unresolved anger issues,” said one. “His underlying depression is making him act-out,” another offered.  But the young man had a much simpler explanation when we dared to ask him. “It’s fun,” he said, and with a big smile.  He felt he had a perfect right to amuse himself at another’s expense. That day, I learned a great lesson about the nature of predatory aggression.

Research has confirmed what experience taught me about predatory aggressors. And in In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance I explain their true motives. There are those among us who simply don’t care enough about others. Consequently, they’re forever gratifying themselves at someone else’s expense.

Follow the links to prior articles on bullies and bullying. And look for more on narcissism and bullying in the coming weeks.

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82 thoughts on “Why Narcissistic Bullies Really Taunt

  1. Sir, I am a clinical psychologist. Please be advised that your article “Why Narcissistic Bullies Really Taunt” reveals a lack of accurate knowledge about narcissistic personality structure. Much of the information promulgated is categorically wrong (i.e. … “they have the “grandiose” type of narcissism. That means, they really believe themselves superior.” – This statement is diametrically inaccurate. The core of narcissism is intense feelings of worthlessness that are deeply buried and defended from revelation at all costs. I encourage you to delete this article. Please consider how unethical it is to post incorrect information that can only misinform and possibly confuse or trouble people searching for valid knowledge. With respect and best wishes.

    1. Please Dr Bill. I realise your opinion is diffrent to Dr Simons. But I ask you to prove what you say is correct and that Dr Simon is wrong. Please Teach me, I wish to learn.
      Because What I have learned from Dr Simon and Dr Craig Malkin is that narcissisim is on a scale, that exists on two levels. One of which is type of narcissism (grandiose or vunrable) and the other is scale ( severity of the disturbance)
      So please teach

    2. Dr. Bill,

      What you describe that narcissism as defense mechanism is vulnerable narcissism. Whereas this blog mostly covers grandiose narcissism.
      You believe that only vulnerable narcissism exists. Whereas Dr. Simon believes that both exists, and in today’s culture (American culture?) the later type, i.e. grandiose narcissism, is more prevalent.

      The textbooks from 80s-90s and earlier, singularly endorsed narcissism as purely defense mechanism. There are good number of newer research paper that assert that vulnerable narcissism is not the only type of narcissism.

      I am also in camp that say both vulnerable and grandiose narcissism exists. It is simply more logical explanation that not only passes common sense filter, but also gives me better understanding of my past experiences and what I see around myself currently.

    3. I also am a clinical psychologist, Dr. Bill. And I am well versed in the current literature, which affirms what earlier research was trying to tell us years ago. There is a type of “neurotic” or “compensatory” or “vulnerable” narcissism that has its roots in the dynamic of which you speak. But there is another type as well, much more common in modern culture, and its dynamics are very different. I will not delete this post. Most folks reading it know how to view it in context – given all the other articles on this blog and all the other books and scholarly articles on the subject, many of which have been referenced here, including in the comments. I regard my readers as some of the more informed out there. And I hope you’ll do some research of your own and with an open mind as opposed to a bias. When you speak of the core of narcissism and then overgeneralize about the cause, you not only reflect that bias but also a position at variance with not only the bulk of the current science but also years of clinical experience. My clients have always been my very best teachers. And I’ve met plenty whose narcissism was rooted as you speak. Unfortunately, I’ve met many more where the same dynamics didn’t apply, and if I’d stuck only to the traditional perspectives that I also was taught, I would never have learned how to help the other variety of narcissist change or learned how to help their victims genuinely recover.

      1. You Dr Simon are a really good person.

        learned how to help their victims genuinely recover.

        I have Sir, thanks to you. Reagards from Joey from the U.K

    4. Dr Bill,

      Please consider how unethical it is to post incorrect information that can only misinform and possibly confuse or trouble people searching for valid knowledge. With respect and best wishes.

      I beg to differ. None of us are confused here Dr Bill but perhaps you are. Your post shows neither respect or best wishes. Please consider how unethical your comment is to critisize Dr Simon who has presented far more accurate and valuable information than previously was available by no short stretch of the mark. Perhaps you should educate yourself further and actually read Dr Simon’s books before you give a scathing critique.

      There is information now available that lifts the veil and sheds a new light on the specifics of both grandiose and vulnerable narcissists of which you obviously have no comprehension of. Your models are OUTDATED and have FAILED. We are in dire need of pioneering work done in this field and it is people like Dr Simon who are leading the way.

      Outdated models are being replaced by new information that is shedding new light on a burgeoning class of highly destructive and maladaptive people of the Cluster B variety. Based on my experience with narcissists of both the vulnerable and grandiose type I can attest to what I find accurate and what I do not find accurate and need nobody else to instruct me otherwise. Therefore I suggest it is you who is inaccurate.

      Further to suggest people are basically stupid and can’t determine what is or what is not accurate suggests arrogance on your part. We should all behave like good little sheep and only do what the authorities tell us. Let’s all go back the to Freudian models and go back to sleep. Well they are wrong too and have also failed. The authorities are full of s**%^

      To suggest all narcissists suffer from lack of self worth is not exactly accurate. What they all are without fail is moral cowards. Many of us here on this blog have unfortunately had extensive experience with both kinds of narcissists – grandiose and vulnerable. Are you suggesting that personal first hand experience is second only to outdated psychological models? Your point of view is not set in stone and can be easily refuted.

      Regardless of the specificity of childhood wounds inflicted and maladaptive schemas prevalent within an individual, people in this category are nasty people period. They are all bullies in one way or another including the vulnerable narcs it’s just the level of malevolence that varies and style of delivery. Their level of self worth is entirely dependent on their false construct. They are all liars and they are all abusers. I would go so far as to say what has become blatantly obvious to me is all types found within the Cluster B spectrum disorders all share a comorbidity with NPD. I believe this is one of the determining factors that effect the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissists. You can’t be treating too many of them Dr Bill if you have not established this yet.

      I suggest that previous psychological models have failed. There are professionals like Dr Simon and many others now questioning those models and producing more realistic material. What is being produced is not only more accurate but of far more benefit to those recovering from narcissistic abuse. When you are on the receiving end of narc abuse you get a comprehensive understanding of exactly what that is and by the type of hand delivering it.

      Modern psychology today has failed on many fronts. Now survivors of narcissistic abuse are putting forward their own modalities for healing and recovery. One of them will give someone more benefit and information they require to move forward than 100 or so psychologists put together.

      For the record I studied psychology and gave it up as a bad joke. I thought I knew something about narcissism – the fact is I knew nothing until I was thrown head first into a viper pit full of them then found my way to this blog. Thanks to Dr Simon and this blog my knowledge of narcissism has expanded exponentially not to mention all the narcissists in my life who have given me a new understanding of what evil really is. Standard psychology failed to do that and will never succeed in anything other than providing smoking mirrors.

      Further there are many Life Coaches now out there providing exceptional support and understanding to people suffering narcissistic abuse in order to assist recovery from this most insidious form of emotional psychological warfare. What Dr Simon is saying is it is the more overt class of narcissist that generally present as bullies.

      While this is true, all narcissists are inherently bullies, it’s just the style that varies. While some use gaslighting others use their fists and mouths – either way a bully is a bully and they all seek one thing – narcissistic supply. It doesn’t matter one iota if they appear to lack self worth or not they are all addicted to supply and the pursuit thereof. Well I for one won’t be giving them anymore that’s for sure and it’s thanks to people like Dr Simon who have given me the new and improved knowledge required to pack one hell of punch in the face of a narcissist.

  2. A bully commenting on an article about Narcissistic Bullies…things that make you go hmmmm? Preach on Dr. Simon! So grateful for your advancement of this type of disordered thinking & character flaws which plague our communities.

  3. I notice bullies only bully those who won’t aggressively stop the bullying. They won’t taunt one who strikes back it tells me they do derive pleasure from the feeling of being in an up position of their victim.
    I watch the X bully and taunt our daughter causing her unnecessary stress. Today he picked up her son from daycare, at her request because she had an appointment two hours away. He, knowing appointments can run late. Knowing she had a two hour drive , he picks her son up early, his decision, then texts her griping how he has her son and she’s inconvenienced him to watch his grandson. As she’s driving the long drive trying to get home. He enjoys griping and hammering her till she’s totally stressed. He does this all the time, gripes at her over things not on her control. She. She’s financially able to free herself from him he will lose her and his grandson. I feel bad for her. I broke free finally but I’m afraid it’s going to take her quite awhile to get away. Last time she stood up to him he threatened to throw her out. This man has plenty of self esteem. He’s mean, not a hurt injured bird. He’s toxic and means to cause harm. He doesn’t care about her well being. What a jerk!

    1. Lucy – we’ve hit the self esteem again. I went through this with AndyD not so long ago and I feel it’s important. Narcissists don’t have true or adequate or healthy levels of self esteem. What appears to be self esteem is not IMHO self esteem at all – it’s something else entirely. It’s a puffed up conflated ego (grandiose types anyway). In other words they are puffed up full of their own perceived but confabulated self importance. It’s not the same thing as true self esteem. In all honesty I think it’s just a matter of semantics but I feel it’s an important delineation to make.

      I’m of the school that states healthy self esteem is a by product of parents being physically and emotionally available to their children and who are able to set healthy limits on behavior which encourages a child’s healthy independence and autonomy. Having healthy self esteem doesn’t encourage win at all costs competition as in dog eat dog. Someone with healthy self esteem will know they have self worth tempered by empathy but they don’t overstate their self worth and they will demonstrate moral and social responsibility. They have healthy boundaries and respect other boundaries.

      I think it’s very true that the vulnerable narcsissists have extremely low self esteem. As for the grandiose it’s self esteem gone horribly wrong, they swung the other way. They don’t lack confidence, hell no, but it’s a false confidence and part of their construct. Over confidence can also be as a result of being allowed to get away with poor treatment of others. You got a glimpse of what lies beneath SB when broke down that day. I think it’s just a matter of semantics but when I speak about narcissists I use the term over inflated ego or their construct/mask as it’s not real it can’t have self esteem. Ego and self esteem are not one and the same thing. It’s impossible for a narcissist grandiose or vulnerable to have healthy self esteem for if they had healthy self esteem they would not be narcissistic in the first place – that’s a by product or rather the opposite of responsible parenting.

      Having healthy self esteem can only be a by product of good parenting and/or adequate levels of self work. I note Lisa made a comment further down and I can relate being very similar when I was younger. It took me years of self work to temper behavioral traits I no longer found acceptable within myself.

      To break this down further allow me to explain. From my own understanding of the human condition self esteem falls on a continuum. Sort of along the lines of poor/low, medium/average, high/healthy although I am loath to use the term high.

      Poor self esteem are victims with victim mentalities. They feel inherently worthless and flawed. People with low self esteem can and often do fear rejection and abandonment. Their parents were abusive or emotionally unavailable to them and did not establish healthy behavioral boundaries. People with poor self esteem are deeply troubled and likely to develop personality dysfunction. They tend to puff up their own self importance or hide behind another configuration – another mask.

      Medium self esteem is a by product of semi responsible parenting. People with medium or average levels of self esteem will understand they are good at some things and bad at others. They can over compensate in areas where they feel deficient. If they fail at something they won’t necessarily beat themselves up too much about it but it can cause them anxiety. While they are still neurotic to a certain degree, what cards life deals to them will impact on how they process their emotions and stresses in life. They are at risk of becoming disordered or improving – they are an each way bet. I would say the majority of people sit here.

      High/healthy self esteem is a byproduct of people who had very responsible parents or who have undertaken a great deal of self work. In other words they have attained the 4 crucible points of balance. They know what they are good at they know what they are bad at. They accept who they are, faults and all and don’t up or downplay either flaws or virtues. They have their ego under control and don’t inflate themselves or see the need to puff themselves up full of their own self importance. They say what the mean and mean what they say without fear of criticism. They don’t make unrealistic demands on themselves or others. They are direct and honest and have regard for others. They have healthy boundaries and respect other people’s boundaries. They are morally and socially responsible.

      That’s how I understand it. Self esteem is how we view ourselves in relationship to the world and others. It is how we view our core self, not our distorted version of self. I am generally loath to use the term high self esteem as it can be confused with over esteemed which in reality as far as I am concerned is ego inflation. I much prefer the term healthy self esteem and I think it’s something we as a race should strive for.

      I know it’s tricky and highly debatable but that is my understanding of true self esteem. A narcissist can’t have healthy self esteem as they fear rejection and abandonment. A narcissist particularly a grandiose narcissist can only appear to have loads of self worth and confidence outwardly, inwardly tells another story. Rock that boat and you will see what lies beneath then you will see just how esteemed they truly are. Because there is your core human being – what’s left after the mask slips.

  4. If vulnerability explained away bullying, then we would all be bullies because we all have them. They bully because they can and because they lack a moral foundation and that’s that. If anything, the narcissisits I’m familiar with all have some type of power, some type of advantage over others, be it good, gentle looks, be it money, be it being in a position of authority at work or at home, be it cunning wit, etc, and this power corrupts them like all power tends to do. It would be interesting to see how they would act if deprived of their sources of power. My guess is that this would make them more vulnerable but less sadistic.

    1. Nothing makes them less sadistic except decapitation or lack of oxygen. I will guarantee that works every time! Never tried it but it has been awfully tempting :-

  5. If anything, the narcissisits I’m familiar with all have some type of power, some type of advantage over others, be it good, gentle looks, be it money, be it being in a position of authority at work or at home, be it cunning wit, etc, and this power corrupts them like all power tends to do.

    Power does not corrupt. It is those THAT ARE CORRUPT that Seak Power at any Cost. They seak any position that has power over others and when they gain this power,they have no regard for WHO they hurt, Or HOW BADLY they hurt.
    Look at the 2008, How many bankers are in Jail

  6. Dr. Bill
    With all due respect, Dr Simon speaks the truth. I have been the target of one of these persons and I can tell you they have no capacity to care for anyone other than themselves. They will stop at nothing to get what they want. They leave a path of destruction for anyone they encounter. The more real truth that can educate society about these characters the better. For a reasonable person, what these characters do is incomprehensible.

  7. Dr Bill
    The only time I saw that the CDN in my life was hurt and weeping was when he’d been caught doing bad acts and it was time to pay the price. He did not cry for those he harmed but cried for himself because he just might have to pay consequences.

  8. My bully was loud, gregarious and pushy, she is an in your face over the top attention seeking covert undermining bitch. I have not one clue what triggers her behavior. She has a well oiled enabling support system comprised of people who I surmise are frightened of the consequences of a fallout. She has torn our family apart. My eldest brother most assuredly must know what she’s like, after all he has chosen his life with her over having any kind of relationship with the people she has bullied.

    I see a jealous, insecure woman who covertly chooses a victim and then “goes after them”. It was an inside joke in our family as to who the next one was going to be because you never knew if you were going to encounter a nice person or the bully person within. Something triggers it and until it happened to me I simply thought it was every person for themselves. I confronted her and in the best interests of my health I went NC. I’m not the only one whose done this with her, there is a pattern her family chooses to turn a blind eye to.

    I don’t know what she gets out of it. What a miserable life she must lead inside her head. I didn’t see a woman having fun but I agree she doesn’t care about the casualties of her behavior.

      1. Lucy they might look angry but believe me they are happy as pigs in shit. Whatever gives them supply makes them ecstatically happy. It’s like crack to a crack addict or heroine to a junkie. If they get their fix they’re happy.

        If they can make somebody else grovel more kudos to them and the bigger the rush. They are sickening cowards in reality as specially when they don’t have victims to bully and intimidate. Then you see what they are really made of – sweet F**^8 all.

      1. Sue,
        The sister of the “bullybitch” is the polar opposite. A genuinely nice woman, easy to talk to, has no hidden agenda and ends up having THAT for a sister. BUT… she has witnessed her sister bully and alienate and destroy relationships. I’m convinced she is afraid of the fallout and stays quiet to keep the peace. She was an eye witness to her sister’s behavior towards me and my husband that ultimately made us go NC. Shame on her for enabling it. Who would tolerate this behavior towards our children or the elderly but witness it in other ways and then do absolutely nothing??

    1. Ditto Sydney with the one who lives around here. She is more of an overt grandiose sadistic bitch from hell – her malice is something else. However, when she is clean out of flying monkeys she wouldn’t say boo to a mouse. She’s pathetic and she’s clean out of flying monkeys right now. She lacks any form of impulse control and soon enough abuses them and is totally left with no power base. They can only pull off their bastardry with a willing audience in tow.

      Strip them of their power, strips them of their power over others and what they have left is basically nothing which is all they had to begin with. They are just deluding themselves and others who happen to be sucked in by them. NC is the only way to go and when you do happen across them just ignore them. They HATE that. Ignoring them fails to provide their false construct with the validation it needs so it can feel alive and real so in a way it’s like death to them. I did happen across her the other day, so I sat down right at the table she was already at which is where I usually sit anyway. I talked to everyone else EXCEPT her, I didn’t even so much as look at her. She didn’t like that much and promptly left.

    2. Sydney – here’s a big clue to her behavior. Anything she feels threatened by which is everything she perceives as standing in the way of getting something she wants.

  9. Thank you Dr. Simon, as always.
    Covert narcissists are difficult for us to recognize due to their “need” to be portrayed as a victim all the while using gaslighting, deflection, projection and incessant “bulldozing” to get their narcissist “enjoyment” of power. These narcisstic behaviors whether vulnerable or grandious can definitely be crazy making especially for us when we observe the smirk of enjoyment when called out on their behaviors, but otherwise covertly hidden in public

  10. Dr. Bill,
    Would you not say that narcissism in its purest form is just complete unrestrained selfishness? Whatever the reason behind it, whether being insecure and a coward or the opposite of feeling superior just circles back to being a completely unrestrained selfish person. This is at the top of the Narcissistic Pyramid. As for me personally, I really don’t care about the reasons because to a narcissist this just equals excuses. Excuses, lies, manipulation, denial etc. All tools in the narcissists’ toolbox. And this is just a fraction of what they have at their disposal. I don’t ever believe that you can really understand why a narc does what they do, or even care, just know to stay away from them and have no sympathy. None. Your sympathy will be put into their toolbox to be used at a later date to get what they want!!
    I have read all of Dr. Simon’s books and I can tell you that he is spot on when it comes to narcissism. It is like the clouds lifted from the sky when I read a” Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing” and I could clearly see. Dr. Simon has given me ways to deal the narc and to not focus so much as to the why. Because why doesn’t even matter to me, how you deal with them does!! Keep up the good work Dr. Simon.

    1. DB

      Dr. Bill,
      Would you not say that narcissism in its purest form is just complete unrestrained selfishness?

      How about pure unrestrained selfish assholeism – I know that’s not really a word but it’s high time we set a new standard.

  11. I worked as a governess in Europe many years ago. I had a child in my charge who enjoyed threatening much younger smaller kids with violence, if he ever caught them alone! The younger kids were terrified of what might happen to them sometime in the future. So this was not only potential physical abuse but psychological torture.

    He enjoyed their fear. Was he insecure, tormented deep down inside? He was a very indulged only child, with very kind professional parents.

    Was Idi Amin a wounded little bird? How about Donald Trump? Is he insecure beneath all the bluster and bullying? I figure it’s usually bullying all the way down.

    A child who has feelings of inadequacy and insecurity will lash out in exasperation. A child who coordinates attacks in a methodical manner and in a spirit of fun is motivated by entirely different forces.

    1. LisaO

      A child who coordinates attacks in a methodical manner and in a spirit of fun is motivated by entirely different forces.

      Yes it is indeed it’s called evil.

        1. Lucy,

          Saw the movie when I was a child and reminded me of a family member. Google children that murder and the hairs on your arms and neck will go up. Its an excellent movie. Beware evil comes in all shapes, sizes and ages.

        2. Lucy – no unfortunately although I do recall something similar years ago. I tried to find it last night and was going to watch it. If anybody finds a link with the full movie will you please post it.

  12. I’m sorry I wholly disagree on this, whilst I can see that narcissists find taunting and bullying fun I do also believe it comes from unresolved deeper issues and abuse. I’ve witnessed it enough to say abuse leads to abusing when it’s buried. I myself have had episodes of lashing out or even being cruel, no I’m not a narcissist but I have been through abuse and I know how it can irregulate behaviour in early life. I’ve seeked therapy for it and work on myself with self compassion. In my family it is the same, this is common and I feel narcissists are part of the toxic group of abused souls but often they’ve experienced a polar opposite that makes them feel they need admiration in order to feel loved and accepted. They do not think about loving others because they have no self awareness and within this they bully people who will not give them what they need. I’ve had this happen to me several times and it’s mostly because they fear I will leave which of course I did.

    1. Louise,

      I would like to say I don’t think many individuals pass through their childhood without some brokenness or some unresolved issues.
      We can only surmise that an individual was abused and or something happened to stunt their development. Therefore, we can only take into account what we have available to make an evaluation. Rather than delve into the past we have the here and now and the actions of the CDN. It really doesn’t matter what happened in the past, do we have time to place all these individuals on a psychs couch for 10 years trying to pry into their inner conscience to find out if they were abused or just were selfish deeming all their needs of perceived entitlement were not met.
      Rather it is the present behavior these individuals will adopt as their modes operandi that is a conscious decision. The CDN knows they hurt people, they don’t want these things done to them but feel its alright to do it to others.

      One of my Sis’s was a spoiled pampered brat, she still is, her unresolved issue is she had to share. With all the CDN running around today, we couldn’t begin to service their mental needs and they would never be satisfied.
      As a society, the only right thing to do is stop enabling these individuals and if they so choose to be the selfish individuals void of others feelings they need to held accountable.

      We or the CDN can’t afford to live in the past and conjecture what may or may not happened, the who, what and why’s because we will probably never know. What we have is today. The CDN’s I know behave the way they do not because of lack of self esteem but because their heads are full of arrogance and the greater than thou delusion. Abuse many times does lead to continued abuse and many times people that weren’t abused abuse. What matters is choice, choice to abuse or break the cycle. Many times that means forgiveness, something the CDN feels is beneath them. Not because of lack of self esteem, rather they are above saying I am sorry, forgive me, Please or Thank you.

  13. Dr. Bill,

    In the field of medicine, what one thought was accurate scientific fact is constantly changing. The revered medical practices of old are constantly changing, become archaic in light of knew revelations in scientific study and research especially in the field of neuropsychiatry and how the brain functions with the use of Pet Scans, MRI”s etc…..

    Still much about character disorders is subjective as we well know we cannot and do not know what others are thinking. A pattern of repeated behaviors is a stabilizing factor in diagnosis. To me your entire comment is lacking in content of reasoning, for you to assert you have any other experience or knowledge otherwise, is absent. All that you express is mimicked theories from outdated text books. Not that there isn’t validity to many facts, but the construct of narcissism’s roots hold little water in light of what recent studies and research are revealing and most importantly, firsthand information provided by the individuals who have lived and witnessed the behaviors. If you take the time to read the archives of this blog you will find resounding, validating experiences of people that have been used and abused by the CDN and corroborate Dr. Simon work.

    Dr. Simon explains and puts into words what many could not express for lack of knowledge. In Sheep’s Clothing is an eye opener as the victim reads the pages and expresses: Oh My God, that is what this person is doing, the light comes on and finally words of validation and the light shines in on darkness. Dr. Simon is not the only Dr. that knows this truth, many do and the whole field is rethinking what they have been taught.

    I would appreciate if you would kindly explain in depth and with experienced proof through numerous case studies, How you personally know “The core of narcissism is intense feelings of worthlessness that are deeply buried and defended from revelation at all costs. ” If these feelings are deeply buried how do you know this for a fact?

    It is a known fact it is almost impossible to get a Narcissistic individual into treatment and the most prominent feature of the CD personality is they are blatant liars. They lie just for the fact of enjoying the art and the game of manipulating. I am highly suspect of “who is pulling your strings of naivety.”

    You encourage to delete this article when tens of thousands of individuals are applauding the truth of who and what the narcissists really are and Dr. Simon had the guts to buck the system and devote his life to finding answers. I encourage you to post an article with facts to support your stance..

    Change and understanding of misconception comes from case study, experimentation and experience in a given field which I believe Dr. Simon surpasses. For a fellow Dr. (????) Bill to critique another DR., by telling them they are “unethical by posting incorrect information that can only misinform and possibly confuse or trouble people searching for valid knowledge” without providing an argument as to why is questionable and unprofessional. I find your post highly suspect in light of your lack of proof except using out dated information which cannot be substantiated.

    I have been studying character disorders for over well over 15 years and have spent my entire lifetime living with the the CD Malignant, Sociopaths and even a Psychopath personality. I know them well and the majority of them are of the Grandiose type. Dr. Simon hits the nail on the head and many in the field agree with him. Many of the old school are changing their views and rethinking what they have been taught as a result of all the new documented evidence pointing in this direction.

    I would suggest you continue to research this field, take one of Dr. Simons workshops and perhaps work in the penal system with the MNSP for several years, or perhaps marry a MNSP and be victimized by them, perhaps then, you will understand what most of know who have come to this site know is the real truth. Dr. Simon also has a call in program, I am sure he would be glad to answer your questions.

    We all learn from each other, I encourage and welcome you to continue to post, as we would all like to hear more as to why you believe otherwise, I say this with an open mind.

    With respect and best wishes to you, Sir.

      1. Btov

        Please watch the lecture. Please watch the lecture. Please watch the lecture.
        Please watch the lecture.
        It is Truly Brilliant

        1. Joey,

          Ditto’s “Please watch the lecture.” Yes, please watch the lecture. A wealth of information to be gleaned.

          The answers are there. I would highly suggest the universities use these lectures as part of course study. It also raises the question, with all this information so readily available “WHY” Dr.’s in the medical field are not researching further on their own and reading the likes of Samenow and Fromm and applying it ??????

          There are to many in the field of medicine all who go through the motions of what they are taught with their own perceptions intermingled and make a mess of everything instead of using proven logic and answers. It would be interesting to hear the questionable Dr. Bill’s reply to the lecture. Look forward to expanding on this topic this coming week. Including the sneaky culprit our society loves, Blame instead of Responsibility.

          Thank you Joey, for posting the link and will watch the rest of Dr. Samenows lectures.

        1. Patti,

          Glad to see you are posting again and welcome you to continue to join in the conversation. You will find a great group here who will support you and help in anyway possible. I know you said you find yourself alone, please take advantage of all the camaraderie and validation you will find among our posters. Knowledge is power, it is also validation of what you have experienced.

          Glad you are reading the blog and educating yourself, this will hold you in good stead in the weeks to come.

          Fight on and be well, know that we all will support you.

          1. I may not always post but I am constantly reading, gathering knowledge. I appreciate all the information.

    1. BTOV – well said.

      For a fellow Dr. (????) Bill to critique another DR., by telling them they are “unethical by posting incorrect information that can only misinform and possibly confuse or trouble people searching for valid knowledge” without providing an argument as to why is questionable and unprofessional.

      It’s an unsubstantiated accusation is what it is. Who liberally makes those? Anybody we know – more than a few at a rough guess :-

  14. If people could only live with these bullies they would see how much pleasure they take in it and they would stop teaching that these are insecure people. They enabled my ex to con them over and over and he got worse.. Wake up people who are into psychology.. you’re being conned and you are harming victims and the narcs themselves by giving them a voice when they need consequences

    1. Agree.

      It is easy to make a conscientious, insecure person to look inward for their contribution to the problem even if all the evidence overwhelming shows the problem lies at other end.

      I suspect many psychologists will do this, just because it is easy way to make money. It is simply too easy to claim that a narcissist is not really the demon, he just has deep seated insecurity, and needs help to find his real self, putting the focus right back at the real victim for not being helpful enough. Falling for this trap just sucks the real victim right back in, whereas the right response is to walk out of room stating that one person (narcissist) need help, and one person (psychologist) can help. Good luck you two! Figure out and solve the problem, and of course person (narcissist) seeking help will pay for this affair/cure/dance. I simply do not want any bullshit from anyone.

      After figuring out above, I too did the similar thing to my wife. Improve or else, something will be done in next month. I ended up filing for divorce, I am happy, and I am sure that in long run I will do much better.

      1. Andy,

        Agree,

        I did the same thing in the beginning I looked to the past for answers. Sure there are plenty of answers back there. We can find lack of nurturing, abuse, overly smothering, controlling, insufficient bonding, resentful, belittling, over indulgence,under indulgence, unhealthy boundaries or none at all, hunger, lack of stability, you name it it is all there. Resulting, many times is developmental atrophy and ones insecurities and inability to thrive. The band plays on and we repeat the processes over and over even though we know it is wrong or something is wrong.

        In this day and age we have been blessed with and an over abundance of information and knowledge of the replicating behaviors and presenting resources to change ourselves. Dr.’s or so called medical professionals who have spent the time an energy obtaining a degree, in other words a piece of paper that says they are qualified are far from it, qualified to treat a sickness the likes of CDMNSP with little or no first hands experience in dealing with the CD at the same time their piece of paper allows them to take on the immense challenges of being in a position to treat the CD and victims/families without a true clue to what they are dealing with. In so many cases their “well intentions” cause more harm than good to all parties concerned, on top of that their paper certificate gives them “power over, albeit honorable, to further damage the innocent parties, including above all the innocent children while reinforcing the sick thinking of the CDMNSP.” So in essence the CDN acquires a certified flying monkey until the therapist is so used up they have to let go due to emotional problems caused by the CDMNSP.

        Individuals such as Samenow, Fromm, Millon, Hare and the list goes on confirms Dr. SImons work in establishing factual proof of Dr. Simons scientific studies in the field of the CDMNSP. Dr. Simon does not condemn the CD either, but offers valid solutions founded on empathy, concern, and love for all concerned. Dr. Simon does not mince words as to what is or is not truth in his 1000’s of case studies he relies on to make his case.
        Not withstanding, all the confirming, credible stories that are posted willingly on this blog that again substantiate, conclusively Dr. Simons findings.

        Andy, I accepted the blame and it got me nowhere with the CDMNSP’s, in doing so I only encouraged bad behavior and took the spot light of their behavior. There is good that came out of it as it opened the door for me to look at myself and improve me. To reinforce my boundaries, to grow in the areas I needed in order to deal with the CD in the right light to extract different behavior, that being the understanding I would no longer accept bad behavior or be the outlet for their blaming someone other than themselves.

        Sure I was abused to, if not more, I could accept and travel down the road they choose or accept to change what I could within my power to rise up from the mire or be consumed by it. I could hate my parents or choose to forgive, I could blame all my actions on my parents rather than accept. I alone have a choice to change the outcome, rather than let my circumstances define me. All life changing and challenging feats and extremely difficult at times.

        As you say Andy, it is easy to put the focus on the victim, an easy job, rather than the deep accountable work the Psych Doc’s should be confronting the CDMNSP with, instead of heaping and laying a guilt trip on the consciences of the responsible victim who is already overburdened.

        Another point you bring up is the money that flows in when we continually support behavior, treat symptoms instead of addressing the real problem. Unfortunately, there is a gravey train in keeping people emeshed in CD behavior, i.e… instead of confronting and exposing the true problem head on.

        Humility isn’t easy, but once learned and mastered is a blessing that opens doors beyond our imagination, rather than the false pride of conceit, greed and malice the CDMNSP carries and refuses to let go of. The victim when sufficiently supported with truth can benefit and rise to new heights of developing substantial character and personal growth by shedding the dregs of self condemnation heaped upon them by the CDMNSP and the misinformed/uninformed medical field and society.

        Many mistakes I personaly made are directly linked to poor advice and use of knowledge in this field. In continuing my search I have also been blessed with medical professionals who get it and support Dr. Simons work and findings. These professionals are of the same mindset and feel the CDMNSP know all to well and use their past as excuses to justify and continue their destructive behavior. I find that Life Coaches and enlightened lay such as the posters on this blog are far more advanced in understanding and treating individuals with CD and offering support to the victims.

        As long as the CDMNSP has enablers and especially the very Dr.’s that should be rejecting and confronting their abominable behavior, this world as a whole will continue to sink into new depths of despair and demoralizing vulgarities taking along with it our hope, being our children. Yes, AndyD, we need to get rid of the “Bull shit!”

        1. True “There is good that came out of it as it opened the door for me to look at myself and improve me.”

          But, you could have been way better off, had you got good counselor in the beginning itself.

          I think psychiatry is more like legal profession, more bad than good, more incompetence than competence, less critical thinking than is required. There is lack of accountability I guess that probably will come with time, and of course people need to become more aware and fight for it. General medicine is much better in this regard, but it has been there for a long time, and results are transparent and immediate for patient as well as for onlookers.

          There are many people who have posted here to following effect, “I had a good counselor, he/she gave me this insight XYZ, and it just clicked!”. Well that counselor did job well and lost a good steady source of income!
          Never underestimate the power of incentive. 😉

  15. I got an email from the X during divorce proceedings indicating how he looked forward to the legal battle. $60,000 plus and two and a half years later I divorced. Ended up settling couldn’t afford the legal battle any longer. This is not a poor hurt damaged abused man. The only damage In His life is the damage he
    Brought to himself. I’m sure here are bullies who have been abused. There are also abuse victims who are not bullies. Bullies get away with too much, too often not paying the consequences of their actions.

  16. Dr. Bill,
    I would remind you that science, including the science of the mind and emotions, is not static but dynamic. And thank God this is true, or my parents would have died thinking they were solely responsible for one of my brother’s schizophrenia. The psychiatric model at the time he was diagnosed held that this physical brain disease was an emotional disturbance caused by poor parenting, alone. Of course now, because science must accept evidence that is contrary to theory, we know this is not true.
    It is the same with character disorders. Some are fear based and some are aggression based. These are both primary emotions. Not all aggression is reactive. Psychiatry has A LOT of catching up to do. I

    1. Right about that “Psychiatry has A LOT of catching up to do.”
      It is relatively new field and it is hard to do tests that will pass scientific rigour.

    2. A lot of catching up to do! That is a major understatement Lisa – how about liberating itself from the dark ages – now that would be advantageous. However, like AndyD stated – anything not encouraging to the bottom line is not pursued. After all it’s all about repeat business. That’s become blatantly obvious and particularly alive and well in the pharmaceutical industry.

  17. Lucy,

    The psychiatric model holds that your x is operating from a fear underlying his aggression. As in — perhaps he was traumatized by the doctor smacking him to get him breathing just after he was born. Having read so much about SB I think it more likely he balled up his little fist and tried to punch the doctor

  18. There IS a growing tendency to acknowledge the aggressive roots of many narcissists, which is a good thing. To be fair to Dr.Bill though, there is an attendant social phenomenon where people who are merely annoying or full of themselves are labelled as malignant narcissists and then described as being ‘evil.’

    Dr. Simon is careful not to describe people as irredeemably evil. It may be true in some cases. Most of us have experienced it firsthand. But it is dangerous to generalize from a specific experience — painting the world around us black and white, them versus us.

    I feel it is wise to come to terms, somehow, with all of the aggression and manipulation around us. But In doing so we have to be careful not to create monsters out of the merely pathetic. Many awful people have been terribly hurt at some time in their lives. I was a very different person when I was younger. My character was lacking in significant ways. I was scared, ignorant and had a stunning lack of self awareness. I am sure I came across as weird, borderline and or narcissistic to some people and it was all fear on top of fear.

      1. Joey,

        Dittos’s

        Good job, me felt a Wolf in Sheeps Clothing too. You know, your gut just starts getting that nauseous, sickness, warning something is wrong here.

  19. It seems to me from the experience I have had that the narcissist, and especially the sociopath has no morality, whether its on a spiritual level or a secular level. Morality is just an obstacle to get what they want. They have a conscience but they choose not to pay attention to it when it gets in their way. They live in an alternate universe where they are their own God. Its a long way from feelings of worthlessness to using people thru manipulation, bullying, covert planning, gaslighting, etc. with no regard for the harm to another, not even their own children.

  20. Dr.Bill might be a troll, but he could also be sincere but incomplete in his understanding. His attitude did strike me as a tad arrogant — which is always exaggerated in text for some reason.

  21. BTOV – thanks for the link but it was one I tried and is not available in my country and it was the only link to the full movie I could find and the same one you sent probably.

  22. I really don’t care why it is they taunt, whatever the reason, it is unacceptable, period.

    It is psychological domination, the worst and most destructive kind. The worst part is it is not likely a conscious decision, or at least I don’t think it is. But that is only an opinion.

    To me, why is of no matter, it never should be.

    1. I agree with you. In my opinion the pathological have absolutely no insight and as such they are completely unaware of their motivation of power and dominance. However, I do believe their actions are by design…on purpose but they are unaware of their motivations. But in the end the only thing that matters is their actions which are aggressive and predatory and we nonpathologicals must be aware and prepared

  23. In reflection, I think perhaps some of it is her own low self esteem. Um, need I restate the obvious? I think the compensation she has is top notch.

    1. Patti, JC,

      I am going to disagree with you on this point. There may be a few who are oblivious but the majority know exactly what they are doing and why. The CDMNSP are about control dominance, they manipulate and study their prey in order to “Pull their Strings.” I would highly suggest you read the archives of all the posters who corroborate these well used and thought out control methods by the CD.

      Please read Dr. Simons Post on this very subject and read the posters comments. Perhaps, you will have a better understanding of the dynamics relating to the well thought out thinking process of the CD. There are also numerous other medical professionals that will confirm Dr. Simons post.

      They Know What They’re Doing

      August 17, 2012Abuse, Addiction and Recovery, Manipulators, Neurotics, Personality and Character, Personality and Character Disorders, Psychological Manipulation, RelationshipsAbuse, awareness, covert-aggression, covert-aggressive personality, disturbed characters, manipulation, manipulation tactics, manipulators, thinking errors, Unhealthy Relationships

        1. Thank you for the link. I do believe their actions are goal oriented and intentional but not always the underlying psychological reason(s). They are almost instinctual. My husband has been made/developed by his mother but has no insight to her pathology…in the end what matters is that his intentions and actions are to dominate and control no matter the cost. I realize I cant expect him to change just like I cant ask a blind person to see. All I can do is judge the behavior, defend myself against it and unltimately walk away

  24. Here is a good one – the below excerpt is taken from the book I’m now reading and this guy turned up at an abandonment group:

    “When I got to see my kids on the week-ends”, Jay continued “I spent the whole time blasting their mother. Sure enough I made them cry. And then I’d feel more determined than ever to win them over to my side I even decided to fight for custody. After I’d spent umpteen dollars on attorney fees, my kids told the judge that they didn’t want to hurt my feelings, but they’d rather stay with their mom. I wanted to get Carlotta bad for that – like it was her fault, I punched holes in the walls and broke things. Needless to say I was so distraught going through all of this shit I lost tons of business. I was just too frenzied and hungover most of the time to follow through with my clients”

    “I really hit a low point when I found out that Carlotta was seeing someone else. I had already fired at least three therapists and two attorneys for suggesting that I shouldn’t interfere, that I needed to back off. Let go of Carlotta? I believed I owned her, that she was my property, that she had no right to do what she was doing. All I wanted to do was win, to get even, to make her pay for my pain and loneliness”

    I think that sums it all up as to why Carlotta left Jay to begin with. This was completely different to the anger expressed by people who were genuinely abandoned. What Jay is expressing is full on unrestrained rage.

    I am beginning to see something. That during the budding narcissist’s formative years (early) that original abandonment wound occurred. Them not being mature enough to fully process the wound due to their brains not sufficiently developed has put them into the SWIRL process but they were not mature enough psychologically and physiologically not able to complete that process. They are stuck there.

    What is a common denominator to all not just narcissists but all on the Cluster B spectrum? Abandonment.

  25. Eudox,

    Yes, the CD are developmentely arrested at a point in time when they were emotionally wounded. The wounding can occur while in the womb, I suspect these are the psychopaths. Also, the wounding may occur via onset of being birthed and insufficient bonding does not occur. I liken this scenario to the children raised in orphanages .

    A few good reads are : Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller who claims she is an N . She is a well know Doctor in the field several decades ago and gives insight to many instances of how wounding takes place. She may also have a website. Another great read is by Shendler, called: Soul Murder.

    In all this we are trying to understand and find the key to why and when the N was formed. In the interim these individuals cause irreversible damage in the world.
    I think the insight into the making of a Narc is important, this may help to open up a door in which one can learn to reparent these children sooner than later before they be come full fledged narcs.

    I agree with the abandonment issue, what really is bizarre is they fear abandonment but in actuality create and bring about their own abandonment.

    1. BTOV

      It’s going to take a hell of a lot of education before people are ready to accept full responsibility for parenting without causing damage. Even without abuse present we can still inadvertently damage our own kids by inadequate emotional nurture. Too many people are using TVs and video games as baby sitters and this does not help.

      Abandonment is a huge issue. And you are absolutely correct those who suffer abandonment bring about their own abandonment because their deep seeded insecurity drives others away and that applies to those who have abandonment without necessarily being narcissistic although I am now starting to doubt that.

      Personally I think abandonment requires its own spectrum. I think to a degree we all have underlying abandonment issues to one degree or another, same with codependency. But some have FULL BLOWN abandonment complex and ruin lives including theirs and practically all relationships with others.

      This current book is giving me a whole new understanding of abandonment and the underlying deep seeded fear that accompanies it – it’s more like terror. I can see why narcissism is so prevalent – it’s an eye opener. Narcissism is just an overcompensation for abandonment.

      They shattered and stayed that way whether that abandonment was real or imagined they stayed that way in that shattered state. I think that the hard core psychopaths where the ones who were actually abandoned probably from or close to birth and that was only probably the beginning. Take the elite aristocracies – their babies where given straight to wet nurses. How much parental love and contact did these guys get from their natural parents – next to none I’d say.

      The mind truly boggles and I just thinking we are only starting to scratch the surface. It’s going to take a great deal of T and C to heal this humanity.

      1. Eudox,

        One must also take into consideration environmental factors. Then with the interbreeding that goes on with the aristocracy, the genetics come into play. Now we have the media pushing materialism and the destruction of the family structure. There are so many variables in any given making of the CDN. However, at the end of the day, it all boils down to choice.

        I could give you story after story of the CDN and what may have led to their narcissism, one must be very careful here. As we can have 2 separate individuals who are treated the exact same way and at the same time have two polar opposites and two complete separate minds making choices on how the individual decides to live their lives and treat others.

        Then in this mix is the distorted thought process of Entitlement. When the construct of mankind becomes self-serving and immoral disregarding the needs on ones fellow man we see the collapse of a society and at this juncture in history most of the world.

        The psychopath I believe cathexes to himself or objects, in many cases a mutation of sorts, others are made, psychologically, genetically, environmentally, hetc., human nature alone and given the poisoness toxins we are being fed, breath, etc., it only makes sense we have an epidemic of CDN. Unfortunately, until something drastic happens I don’t see a reversal in this sickness of the soul.

        Instead of decency on TV we are fed smut, deceit, selfies, death and destruction, a complete disregard for the sanctity of life. People are suffering and starving to death and we are taught to throw a few coins to satisfy our desire to help and then go on with our selfish lives. There is no consistency in this world but a dread of what will happen next, so instead of looking for solutions we isolate ourselves and think of only ourselves.

        Of course this doesn’t apply to all but the moral thread that has made this great society is being stretched to its maximum and is fraying faster than we can repair it. Yes, I stopped watching the boob tube 35 years ago, due to the manipulation of content and its eroded moral content. There were I should say on a few selective programs I watched that I thought added to my knowledge base, otherwise, all garbage.

        I believe more than anything, the media, music industry, school systems and as I believe the intentional destruction of the family unit the greatest purpetrators of CDN.

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