When a Narcissist Has Illusions Shattered-Pt 2

Some see the narcissist as “a legend in their own mind.”  And because the way a narcissist views their self-worth and capabilities is almost always inflated, it can indeed be a pretty ugly picture when their grandiose illusions (see also: Narcissistic Insult: When Reality Shatters Illusion) are shattered.  To illustrate, I offer a couple of vignettes (as always, any potentially identifying names, circumstances, places, etc. have been altered to ensure anonymity), the first of which is presented below.

Joey had been the “man in the family” for over 8 years.  His father ditched his responsibilities as husband and father after taking up with a much younger girlfriend when Joey was only 7 years old.  Joey’s dad was his mother’s second husband and she was pretty “beaten down” by the experience of having been both emotionally abused and taken advantage of more than once in her life.  From early on, Joey had been the apple of his mother’s eye. And as a bright, handsome, talented, and sweet child, she regarded him as her “special gift.”  In many respects, he was also the highest functioning male in the household,  So Joey had every reason to hold himself in high regard.  But lately he was beginning to act way too big for his britches.  And he was also starting to relate to his mother in abusive ways that were all-too-reminiscent of behavior she’d experienced at the hands of her former husbands: trying to rule the roost, using a variety of manipulation tactics to get his way and exert control.  And when one day “things got physical” and caused his mother to become truly afraid, she decided it was time to seek some professional help, so she pushed Joey into coming with her to therapy.

Some aspects of Joey’s case are depicted in my book Character Disturbance (pp. 219-225). In particular, I highlight key aspects of my encounter with Joey and his mother during the initial assessment visit. During the session, Joey engaged in a variety of tactics to maintain the upper hand and exert control.  And it was particularly troubling that he seemed to have little to no compunction about the brow-beating he inflicted on his mother (this reflected some empathy deficits and a sense of entitlement not uncommon in the narcissist).  It became clear that his mother had to acquire the skills and the strength to stand up to him if he were ever going to develop a more non-abusive, less “entitled” character.  And it’s when I began confronting his tactics, zeroing-in on his dysfunctional thinking and behavior, and most especially, when I began working to empower his mother that all the trouble began. Joey began sensing that the “jig was up” and the power balance in the family might be changing.  As I’ve said many times, for the impaired characters among us (especially the narcissist and the various “aggressive” personalities), it’s all about position. Joey was beginning to sense his status as kingpin, his perceived omnipotence, and his grandiose self-image challenged in ways they had never been challenged before and he wasn’t going to take things lying down. Joey used just about every tactic I describe in In Sheep’s Clothing to maintain the position he felt entitled to have. One of those tactics was one of those “if looks could kill” kinds of glare that abuse victims (whether emotional or physical) are all-too-familiar with that sent a chilling message to his mother that there would be some kind of hell to pay if she dared to really challenge his greatness or power. Knowing how she had been overcome in the past, he had every reason to think this tactic would be effective enough to coerce her into a more retreating position. But his mother was finally having enough of this kind of thing and now she was finding a level of support she hadn’t had before. So, as she steadily became stronger, he felt compelled to up the ante in several ways and for quite some time.  Fortunately, in this case, because he was young and still impressionable to some degree, had a modicum of decency in his character that could be reinforced and nurtured, and because he actually knew at some level that he could stand to have some authoritative guidance in his life, he eventually acquiesed and acquired a more level head. He would have problems for awhile in his young adult life, chronically over-estimating himself and his capabilities and inviting upon himself many humbling experiences. Those humbling experiences brought him back into contact with me for a time. And, of course, he wasn’t always willing to admit that his own grandiosity was at the root of problems.  He was prone to blaming everyone else, engaging in denial, and digging-in his heels. So early on he wasn’t all that amenable to therapeutic intervention.  But he eventually acquired the strength of character to both “own” and more honestly reckon with his shortcomings and to appreciate his need for life to teach him a thing or two about what still needed developing in his character.  He also became more open to therapeutic guidance. Not all stories of narcissistic injury have such happy endings, however, as I plan to illustrate in next week’s post.

Again, Character Matters will be a live broadcast this Sunday at 7 pm Eastern time, so i can take your phone calls.

155 thoughts on “When a Narcissist Has Illusions Shattered-Pt 2

  1. Thank you Dr. Simon – this, and the last article, have been very informative for me. I am in the middle of pure chaos and dealing with the result of having shattered my husbands world. I am finally standing up to him and putting a stop to the control he had over me for 41 years. He is furious and cannot see the part he has played in this at all. In his mind it is all my fault even though he has said and done many hurtful things in the past.
    His story is similar to the one in your article. His father died when he was five – his mother put him on a pedestal – he was the only man in the house. She never dated or remarried. He simply thinks the world revolves around him. And it did until I changed my behavior.
    So I guess in a way, this divorce IS my fault because I was the one that changed – he was very content with being on a pedestal and doing no wrong. At 61 he is not going to change. I think he looks at me and thinks who is this woman? But that’s OK. I know what I’m doing is the right thing (the only thing!) to do.

      1. My STBX CDN favorite saying is that I’ve done nothing to financially support our family through almost 30 years of marriage and working full time for 26 of them. He’s paid for Everything and me Nothing! Imagine that. He’s an idiot.

        1. I hear ya. Even though I work full time, with great benefits, and have the higher income, STBX swears I should take on a second job like she does.

          1. my divorce – I honestly don’t know. It will go away quickly if I give him half my pension and half of everything else and take on half the debt he incurred. It’s lopsided

          1. Jackie, never heard that term, guessing? Lobotomy?

            Some things I found out sometimes??????

            Anyhow, in divorce a factor to be considered is the reasonable opportunity of each spouse for future acquisition of capital assets and income potential. Now like the doctor that lost his license can work in the medical field and still make a considerable amount of money. Say, a lawyer that lost his license can make a considerable amount of money working as a paralegal.

            To add icing to the cake these individuals can also work as consultants for large insurance companies doing all the legal work in the profession they lost their license for and another person with the license will take credit for the artwork. In essence they are an expensive grunt receiving a lucrative salary!

            Another potential aspect that arises is, if one has an extenuating health issues.

          2. BTOV,

            Replying to my own post so it’s above your question rather than get lost in the thread:

            Le Petomane was a French Flatulist who ‘entertained’ VIP’s and even English Royalty early last century, to much acclaim.

            In English, a ‘Professional Farter’.

            Look him up, i think you will agree that all the ‘bottom feeders’ described here could do with a large dose of Petomane therapy….getting a dose of their own medicine, quite literally!

            It’s truly chilling that these fraudulent slugs can carry on in their respective fields, allbeit in a reduced capacity, it’s frightening actually.

            Do you know if there is any chance of them crawling back to their former positions? I hope not.

            I hope you are feeling well?

          3. I love that story. And I am doing as well as can be expected. I have a lot of support. But the stress of this all is not good. I have ups and downs. Joining the gym tomorrow to work out my aggression and frustration

    1. Jeanie

      Hooray for you having the courage and wear with all tondo what you need to do. It’s quite exhausting, to say the least, leaving these miserable abusers.

    2. So this little boy at an early age began his journey to become a full fledged narcissist and even worse. I have a sister who was the epitome of what I thought a narcissist was. A very pretty girl who thought she was the most beautiful girl God created. As selfish as selfish can be, it was all about her, starring in every mirror possible.

      Tragically, she tired to commit suicide and lived after jumping off a 80 foot bridge. She ended up in the hospital and lived there for a year. At the age of 19 she became a paraplegic with a colostomy, club feet, and unbeknownst to anyone she was suffering from the onset of schizophrenia.

      I have told her story before in more detail and if I can find it in the archives I will tell you where it is. The reason I am telling parts of it again is, my sister whom I am guardian of will confide in me things she will not tell anyone else, because I do not condemn her or think badly of her. I try to understand her illness.

      She explained that as early as 6 years old she began to bully the other smaller kids at school, this I did not know. I am the 2nd oldest of 8 children and a girl, this sister is 4 1/2 years younger. I was always assigned to watching the younger ones so of course she would not had told me this. By the time she was 12 she was in full swing, beating up the 4 other children in the family who couldn’t fend for themselves.

      She said – Boy, did I hate when you were around because you wouldn’t let me get away with anything, I couldn’t stand you. And then she laughed, she said remember the time I came at you, I had my nails ready to scratch your eyes out.
      I remember it very well, she lunged at me, I never punched a person in my life and at 22 almost did except my mom stepped in. Mind you I am in my house and I have 2 small children and pregnant with my 3rd and it is Christmas Eve.

      She told me at that time she hated me, and that she was very jealous of me. This is about 6 months before the bridge incident.

      In the interim years she had her proverbial Come to Jesus moment. Had it not been for what she went through she readily admits she would had continued down the road of selfishness.

      So many stories of sadness and destruction in the lives of those who become “All about themselves.” How do we stop it? What power do we as the ones who are now aware of the problem start to take back our children, our families, our country?

      The question is WHAT do we do now with the epidemic of the CD, the Narcissists and the Psychopaths?

      Blessings to all

      1. Your sister is tormented at the same time she torments those around her. My goodness. What to do with the CDs around us? I’m trying hard to get away from mine by divorce, and it gets worse and worse. I think they need to find their own way.

        1. Lucy,
          I said she experienced her come to Jesus Moment. I’ll try to find my old post. A rather remarkable story of transformation at a high cost. She is grateful that she found Jesus and in all things she can do anything. It is rather difficult without knowing all the facts.

          She is truly, a living miracle.

          I hope you read my post to Jackie about divorce.

      2. BTOV,

        My god that is SO sad, can’t help but feel sorrow for your Sister even though she was an awful person.

        Lucy is right, she sounds as tormented as she was tormenting others, the schizophrenia could explain some of it, i guess. 19 is early for the onset of this disease, 22 is the usual age apparently.

        A true Psychopath or Narcissist high on the scale are not tormented of course, they skip through life lightly, only stumbling slightly on the damage strewn behind them.

    3. I can relate to this. Unfortunately, my youngest son and I have gone through complete hell lately. He has been a lifesaver for me many times. Lately I have noticed that he is putting himself on a pedestal. He is starting to act just like his father!! I am not dealing with that. He caught me off guard for a couple of days because normally he is a very loving child. I stood back and looked in amazement. I told him a couple of times that I did not like the way he was acting. He did not understand or at least pretended like he did not understand. I became a little more persistent and he finally changed his behavior. I think that there is a tremendous amount of pressure on kids nowadays. We probably can’t imagine since things are progressing so quickly. I refused to suffer abuse at the hands of my 11 year old. Better yet, I realize that there are enough toxic people in society already and I didn’t want to add to the mix.

      1. Earth Angel,

        That is really sad. He changed his behavior but has he changed his underlying attitude, do you think? I would be really careful to emphasize how much YOU do for him and don’t have a position of gratitude towards him, at least not for now.

        Be firm and strong. Don’t operate from a position of guilt or that he is a ‘poor thing,’ either, in any way.

        Single Moms have to be very careful about role reversal. I realize you might not be single. That is an assumption on my part.

        I have witnessed the first stirrings of this attitude in the son of a friend of mine. He is the same age as your son. Boy, does she nip it in the bud, so fast the boy literally looks like he’s been smacked. But I tell you, it works. She just adopts an incredibly clipped terse, totally no nonsense tone, the second that he starts to push her around. It lasts all of 2 seconds. Beautiful!

        I think the mistake Moms make with their sons, particularly, is they try to use reason to deal with emerging bullying and control when the child clearly needs a very clipped concise show of force. I hate to say it but they are a lot like 6 month old puppies.

        1. Yes, I am a single mother. My little guy has a lot on his plate right now. I don’t think he was ever a bully or even close to one. He was just acting out. All of my kids went through a very strange phase around 10 or 11. My other kids got very silly and said off the wall things. My youngest is actually very smart and was starting to let his mouth get the best of him.

          I have always been very blunt. I think more kids could benefit from a dose of reality once in a while. I worked on the school bus and hauled kids with behavior disorders to school. Those were very trying individuals most of the time. They were just young psychopaths. It was actually very sad!! The biggest bully on the bus abused his single mother. She was very scared of him.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

          1. Hi Susie Q,
            We were all worried about you, how did the surgery go? Speaking for all, welcome back.
            God bless you SusieQ I used to love Hostess Susy Q’s I don’t think they are made anymore only twinkies’

          2. Thanks!! I am doing pretty good. I don’t think I have seen the SusieQ’s anymore but I recently found the snowballs and I always loved them. When I was little I used to go shopping with my grandma and she would buy me one for a special treat. Miss those days. Otherwise, I am dealing with the excessive amount of narcs in my life. It gets so tiring after a while but things are starting to look up.

        2. Earth Angel,
          LisaO is giving you good advise. Be there for your son, make time several time for quality time with him. Go to a museum, get his input, talk with him. Perhaps, have him help with making a meal such as Pizza’s to start. This will mean a lot to him and hopefully, model after you. Blessing to you and your son

          1. Lisa is giving good advice. I do understand that my son has a full plate right now. He is going to a small school and once one kid starts bullying then they all chime in. He deals with massive dysfunction on a daily basis so I am never too hard on him. I had to pull him off the basketball time because he was constantly stressed out. He would have nosebleeds that lasted about thirty minutes. I would love to be able to cook him a special meal but we are living at my parents house right now because of financial issues. They don’t have an oven. My malignant mommy narc wants to control everyone and this is her foundation to begin. I spend as much time as possible with him and he is a very sweet kid. I just figure that he is dealing with the dysfunction of the jr. high years and dysfunction at the closest thing he has to home. There are just somethings that my boys do that are just like their father. BTW, we are getting out of here as soon as possible and when we finally have something that we can call out own things should calm down.

          2. Yes, I do realize that communication is so important. I know that it is so important in any relationship. He is really having a hard time and he is starting all the jr. high crap that goes on in jr. high school. He hates school! It is a small school and when one kid starts bullying then all the rest chime in. A lot of the bullies have parents that work at school so nothing ever gets done. He was having a hard time on the basketball team. He was so stressed that he would get nosebleeds that lasted for about thirty minutes. I pulled him off the team and he hasn’t had another nosebleed since. We spend a lot of time together and I wish I could make him a special meal but we don’t have our own home right now. I take him out with me a lot to do errands and then take him out for a special meal or to Dairy Queen.

  2. Dr Simon,
    I have to tell you that this particular line in your post really stood out to me……”a modicum of decency in his character that could be reinforced and nurtured”.
    That right there wraps up what kept me trapped in an abusive relationship for two decades.
    I think most of us want to see the good in people. It would have been easier if he had acted the part of monster every day but he did not. And in public that modicum of decency seemed to grow.

    1. E

      Being a long term partner with these types is full of ups and downs and confusion. The more I read Dr Simon’s articles and comments the clearer the whole sick twisted relationship becomes – why I reacted the way I did through this charade of a marriage. Wish I’d been enlightened much much sooner.

  3. I have been watching on Youtube Sam Vaknin. His 6 steps to recovery from Narcissitic abuse.
    His opening statement is ” You must go from being a victim, to a survivor. No one can do this for you ” just You” not your friends, family,therapist. Know one “JUST YOU”
    The point is; he is right.

      1. Vera,
        I second Vera, BEWARE!!!!!!

        I agree with you, I have watched many of his You Tubes, many of the things he says ring true. What I don’t like he comes across as if he is the Ultimate Expert.

        “Beware” Beware” people like Vaknin aren’t out there because he cares about others. There is something in for him. I
        am sure is is make mega $$$$ and feeding his ego off more victims.

        He is not the true authority, the well versed victim of these CDN are.

      2. Yes he IS a psychopath, if anyone disagrees with him on his sites he removes comments, and sometimes shuts down his sites without warning and without further contact.

        1. Jackie,

          I thought someone posted a site where they did some exam on Vaknin to see if he was in fact a psychopath. An almost hour clip of him and in the end, the results he was just a Narcissist. Suzi did you send the link? Please correct me if I am wrong.

          I am very leery of these other sites unless they are of a more credible nature. Such as Lunde, Evans and others. Kernberg is great too. I agree there are good You Tubes out there too. But Beware!

          Again, the best and safest site is Dr. Simon!!!!!

          1. Vaknin = Beware – wolf – sheep’s clothing.

            BTOV, Last week you mentioned that you had been feeling poorly. I hope this finds you feeling better – many thoughts and prayers!

            No, I didn’t post anything about Vaknin; there is something creepy about him. People in desperate situations are pulled in by these kind of people. Since the days of the internet the information overload has become an open door for scum bags. People like Vaknin take full advantage of it. Often times it’s all about $$$$.

            Timothy, Do you remember our conversation a couple of months ago? Well, this is a good example of good people putting their money into the wrong pocket.

            ALL, Please excuse me if I don’t respond for a while – eye surgery scheduled today.

          2. BTOV,

            There was an Australian documentary about Vaknin in 2009 called I, Psychopath, where he met experts, (Including Hare) in the field in search of a diagnosis, with his WIFE, poor women.

            The end result was that he met the criteria for Psychopathy but NOT Narcissism? That doesn’t make any sense to me, as current wisdom posits that ALL Psychopaths are Narcissists.

            He really likes the attention, so this would have been right up his street; he seems to revel in the knowledge that others know of his disorder, plus some of his youtube vids have inaccurate information, and he has contradicted himself more than once.

            Love his little smile at the end of his videos, NOT!

          3. Suzi,
            Our thoughts and prayers are with you. When you get back and are able to post I will tell you a little more about me. Thank you for asking. God be with Suzi today and Lord may her surgery be successful and a quick recovery. We will miss her. Please watch over her Lord. Amen
            Blessings and (Hugs)

          4. Re Vaknin: Actually, they did (with his agreement) fMRI tests on him in England, as well as some other testing, I forget. And the tests showed he was a psychopath. So he walked away from the film crew in a huff — his schtick was “I am just a narcissist” and he did not like being outed.

          5. I too love Dr. Simon’s site … books too – he really helped me see more clearly & make the difficult but correct choices.
            These too were very helpful.
            Aftermath Surviving Psychopathy Foundation

            Safe Relationships Magazine

            Psychopaths and Love

            Out of the FOG – Personality Disorder Support

            The Narcissistic Continuum Narcissism Key from healthy to pathological


            Articles About Psychopathy and Narcissism

            As for Vaknin (wolf) – R. Hare, G. Simon & S. Brown some of the best.

    1. Joey, Vera is right. And even if he isn’t a psychopath per se, there’s still something not right about him.

      Vaknin’s been convicted of a felony. If he’s anywhere near what he says he is, why would he turn around just because of that? It may very well be the case of saying loads of true or believable things with an insidious, sinister agenda behind it.

      1. Hmmm….. heres a story, talking about a very intelligent questionable person, sub-human, blade runner. A seasoned criminal who is using the medical system for a money making profit. A Doctor of what??

        Remember what Dr. Simon said about the CDNP will give just enough or 99% of the truth and leave out the 1% or the one detail that will change the whole outcome.

        To me he is as slippery slimy as they can get. In the so called “documentary” of and about this jerk, you could see his true colors come out.

        HE is a “Bottom Feeder” he is like the slimy lawyers and undertakers, (there are some decent ones) that make their money off the misfortune and tragedies of others. HE does not care about anyone but himself! HE is not the expert and anyone who thinks he is is being poorly misled.

        Snakes like him, slither on their bellies looking to consume their next meal.

        HE is a “Human Predator. I’ll say it again, HE is a “Human Predator.” HE consumes Humans i.e… victims i.e…. US.

        Don’t ever forget it. Me in my compasionate ways could had easily fallen sway to these type of foraging carnivores of the human mind if I hadn’t kept looking for a safe refuge.

        HE is the worst kind of predator, those sad sop eyes, a face that looks like he is repentant and that is why he is educating and coming clean with his knowledge of what is contained in his cesspool mind. HE tells half truths and makes things up as HE goes along. HE is a lying criminal.

        HE is a human cannibal and he consumes hearts, souls and minds and spits you out when he is done, without a thought.

        Can you imagine the damage HE has inflicted on all the people who HE defrauded and has come in contact with. I have seen the results of individuals whose lives have been affected by the likes of him. I have personally been affected by someone like him and it wasn’t anyone in my family.

        HE isn’t sorry for what HE has done to hurt others, HE wants you to feel sorry for him. If HE was sorry he would be donating the proceeds of his book or giving back to humanity. HE is making a bundle off the Character Disorder Epidemic of the century and don’t forget it.

        God is his judge and I would not want to be in his shoes for anything. I will pray for him but get as far away as possible.


          1. BTOV,

            One of my partner Ade’s favourite films, he laughed his head off when told him of your description of these folks.

      1. And that is why they are dangerous, they keep you dangling, hanging. But once caught in a lie I find it hard to believe anything that spews from their mouth. No point in even listening to them.

  4. This blog has been very enlightening. I never thought of my wife as a narcissist, but it fits in with her controlling, manipulative, even predatory nature. Sadly, I have young children with this woman.

    1. JTS,
      You must start setting boundaries, period. The sooner you will know the depth of her deficiency, better off everyone will be, including kids. If your marriage is doomed, why take take 10 more years to realize it. And, delay only enables more, makes everything worse that current state.

      1. I’m done with it. My wife’s “love” for me was always dependent on subservience. The more I asserted myself, the more she pulled away, and she always tries to pin it on me.

        1. Aha, narcissist’s love… that admiring gaze…

          When things are going good, it does sure feel as good as a Ferrari feels under the proud and admiring gaze of its owner.
          When things are not going good, …

          Bottom-line is that you are a car. And, it does not matter whether you are Ferrari or Crappari. Who likes a car, even a Ferrari, that has a mind of its own, and honks back.

          Do not let her run over you. Stay around on this blog and read as many as possible. There are some blogs on dealing with problematic people. Search for keywords “benign and effective confrontation” for holding up your boundaries effectively.

        2. JTS
          Welcome to our community and I hope you stay for awhile. I would suggest buying Dr. Simons books they are so full of information.

          Andy is right. There are many good people here who are more than willing to help you fill in the blanks and lend support. I hope you stay for awhile. We learn so much from each other. I am glad we have more fellows. It is just not a woman thing, men are affected almost as much and I think much goes unreported do to the stereotyping as perhaps a man showing weakness which is so untrue.

          I look forward to you posts.


        3. JTS

          Welcome. You’re safe here. Keep reading. So much will become clear. What has made it easier for me is to accept the fact that my STNC CDN is bad, has to make an effort to “behave” as a good person does, that he will most always do the wrong thing and that he consciously does awful things I the relationship because that is what he is, a miserable CDN – and these types will never become a good mate. Wish I’d been to this site much sooner. I’ve wasted lots of years and enormous amounts of money and future security. Just know she won’t change. She may “behave” but not turn good

        4. Hi JTS and welcome, great news that you have now created space between yourself and the Vampire, you can now (hopefully) concentrate on building yourself up and giving love to your neglected self, do not blame yourself, and do not see this as failure, see this as ‘experience’.

          Become everything your ex is not in front of the children, so as they grow they will see the contrast and make their own conclusions.

          With divine luck this will make them immune to her poison.

  5. BTOV,

    THANX- ((((((((many hugs))))))))

    Bad memories right now – several in my family abused my dear Grandmother horribly. I was a little kid, I tried to make it stop but I couldn’t. She was so wonderful and so frail and blind.

    There’s always the question “why?”. But you know what – God knows what He’s doing!

    Nothing by mouth after midnight – I need a cup of coffee – opps! there’s an addiction – an excuse for my bad behavior.

    1. Suzi,
      Read the Psalms, (23 and 91) God is your refuge and strength, go into this with a strong spirit of truth and hope. Keep the prize in your mind, heart and soul and the Spirit will pull you through dear sister. I’ll send out prayer requests and will keep praying myself till I see your post. He hears our cries and make a way for his children.

    2. SUZI!!!!!!

      Good luck with your Surgery, hope it’s over quickly and goes well. Then you can come home and get spoiled rotten:)

  6. “Timothy, Do you remember our conversation a couple of months ago? ”

    Suzi I’m afraid you have to give some specifics if you can remember any and if I’m to remember which one of the several ones you’re refering to.

  7. Oh Boy,
    I had to email my STBX. Now the back and forth emails are going. I hate the man I married. And this divorce is taking too long. If there is a devil, it’s him. I will once again have to go to court over an issue that should be simply resolved, with a “normal” person. I just spewed like vomit an honest email to him, telling him what I think of his character. I have no kind words for him.

    To all of you hanging on to the CDN who treats you and/or others badly, just know that they can certainly worsen, as mine is off the charts. And there I see my email blinking at me with his response, but I will not engage another one. I’m done. Good thing I have this site to blow steam. I’m looking at my chart that says recognize, recollect, reframe, relinquish, recondition and the last is “respond”, which I won’t do again.

      1. Lucy.

        Good going, don’t play into his hand it will make him crazy and feel out of control. No Response is the last word. Stay strong and my offer is always open. It is so difficult, I know, but this way you keep your dignity, he has none. Don’t let him suck you in. Come hear and let it all out, we have been there and care. (Hugs) You are taking back your life and fight for you life it will be.

        Your courage and resolve make me strong, thank you.
        Your aways in my thoughts and prayers. Stay vigilant and strong.

        1. BTOV

          Thanks for the prayers and ear and all your good advice. If I give anyone here strength, that makes me feel great.

      2. Well done Lucy, let him starve!!!!

        What you are seeing are his last gasps of air, he certainly has no dignity does he, ha ha, BTOV is right here:)

        He desperatly wants something to feed on, but stay strong, stay serene, and most of all stay SILENT.

        1. My last email was to tell him that I hadn’t read nor will I read his last six emails, that the conversation is over, and to quit badgering me. Of course, he sent one after that, which I won’t read.

          1. Great stuff Lucy, why don’t you send his own emails back? He’ll think for a second that you’ve replied.

            Any chance of blocking him?

          2. I have considered blocking him, but now and then I need to email him. And I receive household bills by email, so I can’t block him. I just have to use restraint on which ones to open and which ones not. I’ve told him in the past to send the bills with no commentary, which he was abiding to until this recent exchange, where he insulted me and I counter attacked, which set off a voluminous chain of hate mail. I do my best. Am far from perfect. Yep, sometimes I just lose it.

      3. Lucy – I am in the middle of a divorce and getting the onslaught of emails and texts also! He never calls though – interesting. in a way I like to think that there’s part of him that is afraid of a one on one with me – that he knows I see through him and he can hide behind the email and texts easier.

        I try not to respond but a person can only take so much. I also can’t ignore the emails and text because we are in the process of selling our home. Too much critical information I have to be aware of right now.

        1. Jeanie,

          We are also trying to sell our home, and there is so much animosity between us that we cannot even talk. One email will turn into a full out war. It’s disheartening, to say the least. But now I know what to expect from him, the absurd, the hate, the break me down, the insults, anything negative is what I expect from him, because that is all he gives.

          Don’t you feel much better in all regards being away from the man? I sure do. It’s like that heavy black cloud that loomed in the house we lived in was always present. Now I’m living with a friend in a small farmhouse which is full of peace and good energy.

          I try hard to go No Contact but at times, to save money spent on attorneys, I give it a try. But it never works. Still end up calling attorney anyway. Ridiculous.

          Once you know how their mind works it gets easier. It’s not pleasant, but at least it’s not shocking and a letdown, because you know what to expect.

  8. Oh Lucy…I don’t know whether to laugh or cry reading your last comments. So frustrating and stressful for you — that’s the crying part. But I am laughing over your stbx writing 7 emails in twenty minutes and trying to picture what actor I would cast in his role, if it was a movie.

    Talk about the typical rage of a narcissist who is being ignored! How dare YOU?? Please hang in there and stay strong.

    If someone steals your kids, they are kidnappers, your car, they are carjackers. But your mind?? Mindjackers, I guess. I feel that all through a relationship with a manipulative individual, there is an obsessive nature to the involvement.

    The love bombing, flattery, extreme interest of the infatuation phase, has an obsessive component for us, the targeted. And for the CD, the obsession revolves around acquisition of something they prize, in a hunting scenario. They have hyper focus and acquistion in mind. We just want to be appreciated and bonded to someone who seems to whole heartedly love us.

    The bond that forms too early on in the relationship, is cemented by us thinking about the CD, all of the time. The involvement is intensely emotional but it is also highly cerebral. We ‘think’ about them 24/7.

    If you have a mildly obsessive nature to begin with (me) — really difficult. If they are working that angle, doubly so. The CD in my life emailed me several times a day, page after page after page of — you name it. I asked him to stop several times, because I couldn’t begin to keep up.

    I realize now that it could have been intentional and for lack of better terms, almost like mind control. I was flattered that this individual took such an interest in me but there was an underlying uneasiness that I couldn’t quite pinpoint. The overall effect was one of being emotionally AND mentally ‘taken over.’

    Had this weird relationship proceeded I would have spent all of my time trying to figure out why he was mistreating me, and for no apparent reason, I am assuming. At least, that is the typical pattern. And who knows how many years and tears that would have taken?

    And then the aftermath? A new kind of mind parasitism the survivor/victim suffers through. Practically speaking, divorcing them requires time and mental attention.

    We are changed by the experience and can become better people because of it…but it is a tough road. I think it has to be one of the toughest. I speak from the perspective of somebody who only had to endure some of it. Most of you have had much more to go through than I did.

    Mindjacking–that’s what they are all about. Peace of mind is compromised all through the process.

    Lucy, you are doing SO well.

    1. Thanks. I’m trying hard. Peace of mind, that is what I want. And my life back. When undergoing a divorce one doesn’t have the freedom of making life decisions, because we’re still intertwined. I joked yesterday, when someone mentioned “identity theft” that I’d love someone to steal my identity! They can have it! Let me start a new one.

      That movie part you mentioned, that is kind of what I was doing, envisioning him with his eyes squenched and forehead tensed up whipping out those hate emails real fast. He’s a fast typist. I hit him where it hurt, told him that he knows what the community thinks of a disbarred attorney. LOSER! That tipped him off his rocker.

      I’m thankful I have a sense of humor. Without it, I don’t know if I could handle it. I get plenty of grief daily, but I laugh lots. Yeah, and I have an aggressive streak myself, don’t like being messed with, so it makes it really difficult for me to shut my mouth.

      And you’re right again, they do sabotage your mind. Because they keep trying to get back in. Just have to constantly meddle.

      And your CD emailing you several pages several times a day, whoa, that could feel creepy. And these cell phones, unless you block them they can just keep entering your mind through texts. Not healthy. Brain sabotaging.

      Thanks for all of your concerns. It certainly helps me.

      1. Lisa,
        You have been so quiet, I pray you are well and will be able to share more of your thoughts and excellent insight! Having been in a paralyzed state dealing with our CD society can weigh one down.

        Many times it is difficult to separate from the CD, to sever the ties is enormous, especially, if the assets keep you hinged. I find the older they get the longer you had been with them the more difficult it is to cut the emotional child they are from you and to remove the Cling- on from your breast. Similar, to the child progressing to the cup – of life. In other words, they are being forced to grow up.

        Some instead of facing the reality, fight tooth and nail to stay in the comfortable arms of Mother. But this SPOILED BRAT still wants everything, they hate the word NO!!!!!!! So we see the typical reaction, however, we must not let them pull us into their manipulative emotional trap. This can be hard after years of conditioning you and brainwashing.

        What is so interesting is the nature, patterns, actions and tactics these CD individual use. Their psychological reactions to events and how internal thought processes are acted out. Its easy as an out sider to predict the turn of events and the next ruse these stinkers will use.

        I have for hours mulled over in my mind what to tell the CD. However, their predictability and giving information/insight of any sort gives them an edge in educating them to unacceptable behaviou, and then you see the modification of tactics. I have been wary to say anything, I find silence works best on the psyche of most CD . But their silence is an indication too.

        The silence of the malignant narcissist is also a warning of future problems.
        In trying to stay safe and at the same time take back ones life can be a monumental task. But again, and foremost No Contact in most situations is the wisest decision.

        In the future, if there is confrontation any derogatory statements or even a word can put you in a questionable position. This is not really a material fight but a battlefield to posses ones mind. Its almost as if you need to surgically remove the cancerous entwinement from you brain.

        Just thinking, and trying to go forward with so many obstacles presented. The responsible party will have the majority of the burdens dumped on them. Not an easy task when one has health issues. Strength comes in faith and trusting God for the answers. In a certain respect it is also my come to Jesus moment and for this I am grateful.

        Through all this, in respect to the Bonfire of the Vanities one must look for new growth and the refreshing life that has been smothered. To dig deep through the wreckage and salvage the spirit of life. Our life and live it to the utmost.

        This has been a quiet day of thought, to regroup strength and resolve to move forward in the most responsible way possible. So many life decisions that weigh heavily on ones heart. A good night of restorative sleep can do wonders in clearing the fog.

        Andy, Suzi, Lucy, Dr. Simon all of you are in my thoughts and prayer for healing.

        1. BTOV,
          Your words make SO much sense.
          Regarding the childlike behavior and clinging to me – that makes perfect sense in my situation also. We were married for 40 years and I now tend to think of him as one of my children that is misbehaving badly. I know he’s not good for me or to me. But after 40 years of living with and caring for someone it’s very, very difficult to cut that emotional tie… You can’t stop caring overnight.
          I wasn’t really even aware of what was going on in our relationship until about three years ago – he always made me feel like I was the wrong one and he was so good at it I believed him.
          I’m now in the process of readjusting a lifetime of thinking and I sometimes slip back into the guilt. He knows that – he knows how to press that guilt button. It’s a sad, scary road to take at 60 years old. That’s why I’m so thankful to be able to come here and gain strength by reading other people’s experiences.

        2. BTOV

          That is a beautiful insightful post. It does feel like I’m being pulled out from a bad wreck, mangled.

          “Through all this, in respect to the Bonfire of the Vanities one must look for new growth and the refreshing life that has been smothered. To dig deep through the wreckage and salvage the spirit of life. Our life and live it to the utmost.”


          1. Lucy and Jeannie.
            If you are trying to sell the house can’t the real estate broker correspond with him. The Emails may be of help in the future. Remember every time you contact your lawyer it is another charge. Many of the things the attorney may lead you to believe you need to contact them for is unnecessary and will never be used.

            I know it upsets you but if you have to call the attorney save it all up for a one time talk or visit. Believe me after the divorce you will regret many of the times you spent with the lawyer.

            The reason the CDN is inundating you with useless emails is the CDN gets attention, pleasure out of irritating you, looking for responses from you to keep things conflictual and the CDN knows and wants to run up your attorneys fees.

            Don’t let the CD keep pushing your buttons. They know which ones to turn on, only you have the power to turn your buttons Off. Leave them to their old retched self, the CDN will bring enough grief and misery upon themselves if you just sit back and disengage.

            In the end if you can maintain clarity and try to remove yourself emotionally which is hard to do you will fare much better. The emails can be construed as harassment and if he interferes and causes unnecessary attorneys fees and you are not involved in any of his conduct, you can ask for reimbursement for his obstruction. But you can not be in contact with him.

            If you must communicate ask your attorney to send a letter that all communication be done via certified mail, that may slow him down. It doesn’t matter what he does in the interim between court appearances except to compile his communication. There really isn’t to much that needs to be said on your part.

            Another option is to hire a third party mediator, a go between which is much cheaper than the attorney. However, in high conflict divorces this doesn’t happen a frequently.

            Remember, we have said over and over,
            – NO CONTACT – is the ultimate last word. Every time you respond you feed them. Starve them, they will enough wreck havoc by their own design, but by all means possible try to ignore them.

            Responding keeps the crazy making triangulation going.

          2. BTOV and Jeanie

            Your input are all great suggestions. My STBX has been barred from communicating with my real estate agent because he harassed and bullied the last one to the point that she actually quit – gave up my listing. So he can have no contact with our real estate agent.

            There are 9 emails – unread- he has sent, the last one entitled “taxes” of which are delinquent, of which there was a hearing, with just the attorneys present, this morning concerning them, to which I don’t know what the outcome is yet.

            Also, I had a terrible car accident three weeks ago, of which my vehicle is declared totaled. Lucky I wasn’t hurt/killed. I was hit hard and fast. So now he’s holding the title, won’t sign it, won’t release the check to me so I can purchase a new/used vehicle. He has two vehicles in his possession, me none. He declares everything is “his”. He’s the most difficult person one could possibly deal with. So I left the marital home cause he’s in it, all the possessions, vehicles. He has everything. Me nothing – except my sanity. EVERYTHING is a battle with him.
            That’s good advice saving every issue to one email. I’ll do that. I’ll keep a list.

      2. Lucy,
        Many times telling one off gives us a feeling of relief and satisfaction. But in dealing with the CD you may be what is phrased as :
        Adding Fuel to the Fire

        Be vary careful in choosing your battles.

        1. I get what you’re saying. And I did add fuel to the fire. He once again is making me use the court system when I shouldn’t have to. My limits sometimes are pushed overboard and I unleashed. Ill probably pay the consequences in court tomorrow with his stubbornness to not do the right thing if it benefits me. I cannot ever have a productive conversation with that creature. And it’s too costly to run everything brought the lawyer. Im So frustrated

          1. It’s so difficult to stay healthy – emotionally and physically when constantly having to deal with a CD. Its like Im being attached by the devil. That is what it feels like

          2. Lucy,
            Its like having a giant blood sucker from the horror movies attached and the emotional vampire always lurking in the corner wanting to feed.

            Ending with divorce doesn’t guarantee they CD will go away and your rid of them. Narcissists are always vindictive and think of how they can get even especially the malignant N’s. I am sorry, but the type you are describing I have dealt with and they are are breed of their own and they are on a mission of revenge and destruction.

            If he finds a new target that will be to your benefit, he will take a lot of his hatred for you out on her. It’s a sad thought of how many lives these people abuse.

            Be strong and keep going forward. I have been going to the Chiropractor on a continuous basis and I think it’s helping some. I am drained after the adjustment. I think joining a gym is great, I may do that too.

            The weather has been so wet and dreary. Soon it will be spring, and am looking forward to nice weather. I have an acre of grass to cut. Looking at new houses and to simplify.

            I am looking at how all of this has made me a stronger and better person, what can I give back to make this a better world. Its not to late. Dr. Simon said 60 is the new 40.

            So we have a lot to look forward to. It’s our choice, and as the obstacles come and the CD wants to be a fool, so be it. He will be treated like we should had treated him from the start. He takes full responsibility for his actions or otherwise suffers the consequences.

            Lets find the things that fulfill us and find peace and joy. I think we can, we need to believe in our inner strength. So Lucy, we have the opportunity to live life to the fullest or be stuck.

            We can get the monkey off our backs with perseverance and determination.. Its a wonderful thing to have found Dr. Simons site and all the support from so many. (Hugs)

    2. LisaO,

      They definatly work to a script it seems, what you have described is mirrored exactly in Narcissism Support’s vids on youtube, the quick courtship, the love bombing, the idealization, getting personal information from you too early, a team against the World within two weeks lol!

      The way the more intimate details were described, as a tactic to appear to bond, “mirrored breathing”, sounded like something from the Bodysnatchers Film.

      They aren’t born, they’re hatched!

      1. Jackie, Thanks for your thoughts. I would feel much more culpable if I had ‘put myself out there,’ on a dating forum or something like that. But this wasn’t the case.

        Even though I was lonely, adrift, sick I wasn’t actively looking for a new mate. All of my feelings of connectedness, at that time, were established around searching for greater truths and deflecting attention away from my own discomfort.

        I fully trusted the CD individual, as he was a well respected political activist, who spoke with what seemed like complete sincerity, about issues of social justice.

        His ‘kindness,’ bowled me over–not just to me, but towards others. At least, he would tell me stories about how he helped people and how much this defined him as a person.

        The worst of these animals understand that people who are a bit jocular and come across as a little crusty, for lack of better words, are often the most vulnerable.

        They draw us out and work on the tenderest parts of our newly exposed souls. We reconnect with the damaged child who had to ‘harden,’ to survive. The little girl starts to feel comfortable, to feel embraced, loved, accepted, for who she is and nothing more. She starts to run and laugh and sing, for the first time in decades. In my case the running part was just in my head.

        And then, without warning, they take that trusting kid out to the woodshed and give them the worst beating they ever had. When they are done, they take her bleeding body and throw it in a trash can, (metaphorically speaking.)

        Puddle, a former poster, we admired so much here, spoke to this feature of psychopathic abuse, in the most eloquent way. She described in poetic terms, exactly how the pain of this kind of deception feels.

        The only positive that came out of this and something my husband, (in spite of all of his own problems, was moved by) was how much life long damage I had suffered and how much work I had to do to heal.

        It has been a 5 year therapeutic odyssey, something I should have done in my thirties, not my fifties. And it has been worthwhile. I will never completely forget the pain and that’s alright.

        I can feel joy and self love and acceptance, in spite of the glimmer of harsh memories. I am stronger and more compassionate for having been through it.

        They do seem to hatch, that is for sure. It’s hard to believe that anybody would put that much time and effort into conning somebody, be it for money, sadism or a mix of both.

        1. LisaO

          I’m sorry what you went through – suffering for a long time. I am also bemused by the fact they out all that effort into a con. It makes no sense to live in that manner. What a waste of a life and it’s too bad we got dragged into it.

  9. BTOV,

    Sorry you’re feeling ill. I used to go to the chiropractor and absolutely loved it. But I have a very high tolerance for pain. Maybe that’s why it felt good.

    My goal is to enjoy life even as I struggle, to not “wait till the divorce” to have a good life, because that would rob me of years. Many days I remind myself, yes, I have big problems, but here and now I’m having a good day. Most days are good ones.

    How to make this a better world, that’s a thought I haven’t gone to yet. I do tend to make my small circle better. That’s a start.

    Inner strength – I’ve been told by good friends that they admire how well I am considering what I’m dealing with. I still do find joy in life – but boy do I have big worries.

    I do what I call “putting out fires”. I deal with each issue as they come up. I try to look at long term plans, to an extent, but mainly focus on what’s happening at the time. It’s about all I can handle. A friend asked me about what my future is with my BF. I told her I have no future plans. I get by day to day. That’s all I can do.

    THANKS for your support, all of you! All your insights help me cope, and I hope some of mine help others.

    1. Lucy,
      As far as the BF this is not a time to make plans when you have not finished with the X first. Take time to heal and change those things within you that drew you to the CDN in the first place.

      The healing process is a journey in itself. I have had several fellows and I think nice ones approach me. But I decided I needed the time for me to straighten everything out in my life without another emotional attachment until I felt I resolved my unfinished business.

      1. BTOV,

        I understand what you’re saying. I’ve got so much to sort out, work out. My BF is nurturing, helps calm me down on a bad day. Has been a good friend to me. But yes, no long term future plans for me.

        It had been a long time, years, that I received real kind tender affection from a man, because my husband sure wasn’t giving it.

        1. Hi Btov! Thanks for your thoughts and concerns for me. I am feeling a bit better, but this is a tough tough virus. Half the people in my locale have it and it just doesn’t go away. I hope you are feeling a bit better day by day??

          I think that ideally, it’s a good idea to have everything wrapped up with stbx, as in Lucy’s case, but in real life, sometimes it’s really hard to implement and may work against the survivor/victim of abuse.

          When my kind and good but not neurotypical husband died, I was so starved for basic affection, compliments, a partnership in the real emotional sense, I didn’t hold back.

          I took terrible flack from one of my friends for letting a friend of my husband’s hug me…lots! I tried to explain the nature of husband and my ‘marriage,’ the lack of emotional intimacy, etc…but could not and will not speak ill of him, as he couldn’t help it. So she thought I was awful, a woman who wasn’t appropriately grieving a man who was merely ‘quiet.’ She couldn’t get that the quiet was introversion and aloofness, carried to extremes — and that in it’s most extreme forms, that kind of distancing, from the world is damaging to a man’s partner.

          For a month I stayed in my house, sequestered, unable to function. My friend cooked for me and held everything together. More than that he would play the piano — sad songs, so that I could cry. It brought me out of shock. I tell you, I was some stunned. Unbelievable.

          At my age, I feel life is too short to hold to strict tradition, unless there’s a clear reason for it.

          More than that, I would be a hypocrite to declare that I would never let another man touch me, after being in a romantically sterile marriage for over twenty years.

          So, I totally get what you are saying Btov. It is so important to clear up past relationship debris before moving on.

          One of the clear positives for me, of being targeted by a P, prior to my husband passing away, was the education it gave me, in terms of spotting red flags. Had it never happened I would have been red meat for a predator…even more than I was, years ago. Financially secure, not bad looking, no kids, and most of all, all f’d up in the head and too trusting, interpersonally.

          Lucy is probably able to spot a CD much more easily now, as am I!

          Btov, I think I am making up for lost time and have met my text quota!! LOL Take care

          1. LisaO

            “the lack of emotional intimacy” – that is what I never had. I told myself – before I met my BF – the next man in my life I will have emotional intimacy with, or I don’t want it. Been there without it and it’s no good. So it was hard for me to be emotionally intimate, but I drove myself to be and to open up as I’d never been done before, and it sure did draw me closer. I don’t want another empty relationship, ever again. And I’ve got so much SH** pouring down on me from my STBX that it seems to never clear, but I do want a man in my life, a good honest loving one. As I said before, I love men, just not my husband. hahaha

          2. Hi LisaO,
            I am glad you are feeling better too. Yes, I loved reading Puddles —I remember we had a good 4th of July banter and Puddle suggested to listen to Buffy Sainte-Marie. I will always see Puddles face in Buffy’s music as Puddle was as eloquent and honest and full of passion and honesty as Buffy is. I miss her enthusiastic vigor and liveliness, her distinctive style and flair her bright inner élan.

            A friend is hooking up speakers and a stereo so I can play my music again, my classical, opera, christian and Indian music from all over the northern and souther continents, Buffy is now on my list. I love Indian folk music, I have all of Bruce, the flutes and the feelings they resonate and indescribable language all of its own. You can soar into the clouds and feel the unbearable haunting pain in Indian music and at the same time an reconcilable peace that is in harmony with Gods natural creation.

            In northern WI I get the a station devoted to tribal music and the powwow drums and chants are so full of stories of bravery, love, war, sadness and pride. I will forever, picture Puddle every time I hear Buffy and she is just as courageous in her passion and struggles and gave so much in the success of this blog.

            Puddles posts are truly missed and for all who were not fortunate enough to exchange posts with her I would suggest going back into the archives and reading her posts. She was sense to feel and express in a unique way, I pray she is well and we may be blessed at some point with her return, just to let us know she is well.

            I might add we have had many wonderful posters who are sorely missed. I got a little carried away with nostalgia.

            LisaO, I am sorry someone made you feel that way, just as I am sorry that you had to experience the horror of such an indescribable excuse for a human. Out of it, I know you have suffered immensely, but in return you took that pain and suffering and found this forum sharing your experience and shedding so much light and wisdom in the lives of others who are struggling.

            So again, you are a winner and they the loser. Be well and always you add so much and your insight has helped me.

            Its been over 3 years I have been divorced and the fool is still creating havoc. But with the grace of God and Divine Intervention because my faith is my rock I get along. It has been a journey, a journey indeed that has only made me stronger and hopefully wiser.

            We all need to be appreciated and loved, I needed the time to heal and am still healing. I am at peace, I have other internal demons to exorcise that happened many years ago that doesn’t envelop the X. Someday, I may share that painful experience.

            Take very good care and blessings (Hugs)

          3. Hi Lucy,
            In the real world it would be nice to wrap things up ASAP, if you are in the discovery stage you are far from this crazy making process to be ending. This could be strung out which I imagine he and his lawyer are conspiring to do. The strategy is to bleed you dry.

            If you are going to court to have monetary funds payingyou are redirected in a fair manner. You need to document the circumstances of hostility that forced you to leave. Keep an account, canceled checks of the rent and utilities you are now paying as a consequence of not being able to stay in the home with him.

            If it is a boyfriend or is just a man friend who happens to need a roommate that is good. If he is in fact your boyfriend it may be looked upon that you left the X to be with BF. Don’t be surprised if the X insinuates you had a BF all the time you were married and much more to cover his own debaucheries. This could turn into a real circus.

            In the end and the attorneys are looking at tangible assets they can sink their claws into any equity built into the marital residence will be consumed. The X may just decide when he runs out of funds to represent himself for a good portion of the time. Then things will really get harry.

            The way things are going everything you own could ordered to be appraised, devaluing everything to the point of rendering it valueless.

            I am not sure your attorney has explained all this to you adequately. Divorces aren’t a pretty thing at all. I know one thing everything I own will be put in a trust that no one can touch. Never, again, will I let anyone come near my assets. If I meet a man he will have to be able to afford me as a woman and wife.

            I am not having anyone attaching themselves looking for a mama. That is not to say I will not contribute to the marriage. I have met 2 very nice men now and am taking my time. I have a lot on my plate and want to make sure my emotions don’t give sway.

            There are things and means you should consider concerning your health in pursuing this degenerate.

            Lucy weigh all these things out very carefully, what you gain and lose and the time it will take to sever this vile Svengale from your life.

          4. LisaO
            I understand what you’re saying when you don’t get the intimacy emotionally or physically. My STBX turned so cold I was not even comfortable touching him. Now I understand why he was cold and standoffish- because of the skanky hidden life he was carrying on. So now in back to my touchy feely self I was before I married mr iceberg. The man I’ve chosen to be my mate this time is sensitive, honest, caring, attentive and accepting. He loves me even with the bag of crap I’m carrying on my back. I would not let my STBX bad character ruin the rest of my life thinking all men are the same. (Or women). There are certainly good people out there.

  10. To everyone on here,

    You are ALL stepping out of the fires, the hard tarmac Will change to soft grass, keep going.

    J. Reid Meloy once said that revenge of the Psychopath/Narcissist may seem sophisticated, but emotionally is no more developed than a two year old squeezing he feet of a puppy.

    At least you are all intelligent and can figure out with eloquence what is going on, some took a while, but at least you got there, can you imagine someone going through the same thing but because of a lower awareness, slow even, they haven’t a hope in hell of understanding what’s going on, especially if the CD is of a higher intelligence.

    In fact i have heard of a syndrome amongst Middle class men who deliberatly marry Women of a lower intelligence, or working class women with limited education, this is because the Men feel like failures in their lives and so they can keep up their self esteem by bullying at home. I am sure some Middle class Women may do the same.

    You all “get it”, you have begun the process of loosening your chains, and thank god for it!

    1. Yes. I’m definitely getting it, predicting what will come next. All hopes (delusions) of him conducting himself in a civil, appropriate manner are gone. I know he’s bad, bad to the core, always will be, intends to destroy me and will do whatever it takes. I’ve accepted it. It kind of makes it easier to KNOW he will take the dishonest, difficult approach to every issue. I just take one issue at a time. The man is as rotten as one can get.

    2. I’ve often thought my STBX is so immature emotionally, but there are so many other issues alongside the immaturity, like the narc traits, CD, all that. It’s weird, for someone with such a high intelligence to have such an immature underdeveloped emotional health, like that of a brat, a 10 year old bully brat.

      1. Yes Lucy, an intelligent child in a Man’s body, highly disturbing. Severe ego disruption when 2 or three is the cause apparently, according to the psychoanalysis angle as written by J. Reid Meloy.

        If i may semi-quote once again, in Hare’s book Without Conscience, he likens the Psychopath/Narc/CD as clay, newborn clay, the environment are the ‘hands’, the sculpture if you will; what shape the psyche forms into is determined by the environment/upbringing but the embryonic clay is there from birth. They will always be bad eggs.

        One theory is the development of the mind and the latter the hard wiring of the brain, but if they were born this way, this ego distortion would happen anyway is my guess.

        Lucy, call me Mrs quoter, to go with your Mr cut and paste lol!

          1. About a quarter of psychopaths are women, after all…

            I have a saying: all women are sisters, but not all women are trustworthy.

    3. BTOV

      I have a dissipation of assets claim against him for spending finds on gambling and prostitutes, hotels , large ATM withdrawals surrounding the hotel reservations, some days using 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 up to seven hotel rooms on one day. This went on for about two years. Looks like drugging, pimping and being a John. There was one charge to Sally’s Beauty Supply for $500. All documented in a checking account. My case is hairy. Expensive. He won’t want that part of it litigated in court. But the badger hasn’t given an inch yet. He is going to run out of money soon. And you’re right, when/if he represents himselfnitbwill ne a nightmare. Thing is – I can’t settle because he demands half my pension, which would leave me a pauper. Not fair. So yes the whole situation is out of control

      1. My my Lucy,

        What a sleazeball, he really is a prize isn’t he?

        This is so not fair, is there ANY light at the end of this rancid tunnel?

        What a swamp thing!!!

        1. I hope there is. It does look like I’m getting closer to going to actual trial. Let the judge decide and I’ll live with the decision.

  11. Yes. I’m definitely getting it, predicting what will come next. All hopes (delusions) of him conducting himself in a civil, appropriate manner are gone. I know he’s bad, bad to the core, always will be, intends to destroy me and will do whatever it takes. I’ve accepted it. It kind of makes it easier to KNOW he will take the dishonest, difficult approach to every issue. I just take one issue at a time. The man is as rotten as one can get.

    1. If only there was such a thing as an Attorney with psychiatric training into the mind of the CD?

      Are there any, i wonder?

      Awful situation for you Lucy, i hope your life will not be in limbo much longer.

      1. Thanks. I am actually living with a friend and having a good time, kind of a mix of Folden Girls meets Lavern and Shirley situation

      2. Im looking for that too.
        Maybe after leaving my narc and as a professioanl in education I will try to get law students to know about this people!!

  12. I have considered blocking him, but now and then I need to email him. And I receive household bills by email, so I can’t block him. I just have to use restraint on which ones to open and which ones not. I’ve told him in the past to send the bills with no commentary, which he was abiding to until this recent exchange, where he insulted me and I counter attacked, which set off a voluminous chain of hate mail. I do my best. Am far from perfect. Yep, sometimes I just lose it.

    1. Lucy
      Household bills? Whose name are they in? If you have to pay half, why do you have to talk with him? It seems you can put the brakes on that too. Unless, you want to keep a connection? This is not a good connection. Sever any connection with him, is there anyone that can give you the bills, perhaps, a grown child. Just the bills in an envelope no communication other than the bills.

      Otherwise, can’t he send the bills via the mail, or if the bills are in your name you can call and get the amount due from the company. If the bills are in his name he can send a copy via the mail and you can send him a check.

      Ask your attorney to request this of the judge at your next hearing because he is presenting such a problem. Better yet, let him submit the bills via his attorney to your attorney, to give to you once a month. This may cost a little bit more money, very little since you know which bills you need to cover. You can also prorate the bills and if there is a difference that can be computed at the end.

      With your responding to him you both don’t look good. I am warning you and I am doing this trying to help you. Also, even if he is a jerk there is a sort of brotherhood with these individuals in the system covering each others _CYA___.

      Regardless if he has lost his license, he may be owed favors or will promise favors. I have known a lot of judges, lawyers, officers, doctors and individuals in the legal field, they take care of each other.

      Emotions run high at a time like this, he has payback and get even on his mind. You play his game and into his hands if you respond in any way. He can and I am sure has the ability to forge documents.

      This individual CDN plays by his rules, his ethics and because he says so it is. This CDN believes his own lies and distorts the truth. Your mind is not as twisted as his, there is no game or anything if you don’t engage by responding.
      Don’t underestimate him or the lack of fairness of the courts.

      I don’t doubt this CDN has a little black book on everyone in the near vicinity. Be careful, ever so careful. Remember these types are blame shifters and he may make you look like the bad guy and turn the tables on you.

      Think about what I am telling you, the CDN especially with the knowledge and practice he has can very well cause you more grief than you ever dreamed possible. I hope you are not talking with anyone, zip up tight.

      Another thing you may want to do is request a copy of your credit report and make sure there aren’t any open joint accounts. Take your name off everything connected with him.

      This jerk may go so far as to make you lose your job, it sounds like he is going to go for maintenance and half your pension, to include insurance. This CDN wants to punish.

      If anything remember how he has treated people in the past, that should give you a good indication of who and what he is and what he is capable of doing. Don’t let him know anything about you and your activities. He is up to no good.

      How long before the final hearing or the trial?

      1. This is good advice Lucy, BTOV knows how about these ‘snakes in suits’ and how they operate. Bu following the advice it means No Contact, which will aid in healing.

        Hope you are feeling better BTOV?

      2. No hearing date yet. I’m still getting discovery. Yes, no contact is the only way I can go. I’m paying half of all home related bills, down to the trash bill, and I don’t live there. At the time the order was written up he was to live downstairs and me upstairs. That didn’t work, I left, and am stuck with half the bills. I’m screwed. I’m more than frustrated. I need a hearing date to undo the last order and get on with the real issues in this divorce. He is going for maintenance and half my pension. He’s spent what was saved on his end for retirement. Soon he’s going to run out of funds to pay his attorney, so maybe his BS will slow down. He is out for blood. He claims everything is his and that I owe him. I’ve worked full time since 1983 except part time four of those years. I’ve contributed a hell of a lot. He tells everyone I’m crazy. I don’t care. The people that I know think he’s crazy, as he is. I closed all joint accounts. And that was not easy. He would love to make his case with emails. He’s desperate. Not much to hang onto. I call him Mr. Cut and Paste.

        1. Lucy
          That is what my X said, I deserve nothing, I was given all the debt. The arrogance even suggested had it not been for his intelligence I would have nothing.

          Jackie, didn’t you say you took an early disability retirement due to all your health issues or am I thinking of someone else?

          Theresa, are you OK haven’t heard from you, it would be nice if you chimed in. Perhaps it was you who retired. Hope you are well.

          1. BTOV,

            No that wasen’t me, i DO look after our Autistic Son along with my Partner, he’s 23 this April; we have had battles with our local Council, (Hackney in London) for most of his life, but we battle on.

            I am just grateful that Autism is known about and understood more among the general population compared to when Marcus was born, getting stared at in the street was not unusual back then.

            I differ from most of you here, Ade and me are working class, poor actually, in a very rough area of London; we would love to do more for our Son, but finances preclude it, and Hackney Council are known to be one of the worst Council’s in Britain for offering services to the disabled. The people that work in Adult Services simply do not care, they just want to save money.

            So our 23 year old Son simply sits and fills empty shampoo bottles with torn up toilet paper rolls when he isn’t watching TV or on the Computer, this is why we take him out locally whenever we can, and stop him if we see him doing this.

            Just decided to tell all the people here this to personalize the name you see on my posts, not to detract from your stories, just wanted to share mine:)

            As you were:)

          2. BYOV
            Unknown what you mean. As he says ” you didnt pay for anything!” I think he believes that. I guess so wrapped up in himself he can’t see past himself. Jerks!

        2. My God Lucy, the utter shark!

          You don’t even live there yet are paying half the bills??

          Do you have any idea of when this hearing will take place so you can ‘cut and paste’ him out of your life?

          1. No hearing date set yet. I’m almost ready. Been getting gambling records. Then I guess we need his deposition- of which there will be no answers, dishonest answers, and not full answers. The answers questions with a question. The Jerk will never answer a question. So annoying

          2. Jackie

            Thank you for sharing your story. It is rough trying to give a decent life to a person with such disability. There is such a spectrum there. It’s got to be exhausting emotionally and I wish I could help you. Darn.

          3. Lucy,
            If he lost his —– where does he get his money from? If your talking depos and discovery then your going to trial. If their are enough assets involved the judge can order the attorneys to continue and get paid from the proceeds from the house. You may want to look at the contract you signed with your attorney it may include they can take a lien against your property when your home is sold.

            Another scenario if the judge feels their is to much animosity and difficulty he can divide the assets or even order all assets be divided. It can get very nasty.

            I am so sorry it has come to this for you, life is so short and this is how the CD decide to live ones life to the bitter end. Rather to love and esteem their mate to nurture each others spiritual growth and grow old together, they would rather tear down and destroy. So very very sad.

  13. BTOV

    He got a job which pays him a wage way below what he was earning as an attorney, prior to his “downfall”. We have an upcoming hearing where he’s asking for temporary maintenance (isn’t that what I’m doing, paying half mortgage, insurance, utiltiites, etc. in a home I don’t even live in?) The house tax issue will be addressed, car insurance issues (my totaled vehicle – I am borrowing a friend’s car while he has two vehicles in his possession – won’t give me a key – won’t sign over the insurance check for me to purchase a vehicle) I’m living with a friend while he lives in a luxury home, of which won’t sell because he won’t clean it, it smells like dog. It’s all lopsided.
    At this point I’ve already lost the house in a sense that I’m paying for him to live in it, while he trashes it, I’ve spent any money that I would have gained from the sale on attorney fees. Losing the house to taxes will probably be no worse, since it’s a loser for me anyway.
    If any case were so ugly as to just split everything in half, this would be it. But it would not be fair being that he committed a crime to lose his law license, dissipated funds on gambling, drugs and whores. I’m basically screwed.

  14. Lucy,

    I feel so bad for you. I don’t know what else to say. I do think it is lovely that you have love in your life now though. You deserve it.

    I hate to say this because it is very unkind …but…it would be quite helpful if your Stbx keeled over right about now. Then all you would have to worry about is the occasional haunting, rattling of chains.

    Perhaps you would go through some poltergeist phenomena where little things would go missing. Bt this would beat half losing your mind, dealing with a wraith who is hell bent, literally, on ‘winning.’

  15. Btov,

    Thanks for your kind words. Am happy that you have so much music in your life. Every little bit of positive helps! Am also aware you have had so so much to deal with from a loooonnnnggg time ago. A good therapist, or even understanding friend you trust might be able to help? And yes, it’s like exorcising demons going through all of it. My heart really goes out to you and I am so happy you have a strong faith to lean on.

    My CD experience was mercifully brief and when it was over, it was OVER. It certainly made me reflect on how much multi layered trauma I’d never addressed properly. I ‘knew’ I had a traumatic childhood but I ceased ‘feeling’ it in my early twenties. Part of that was due to family loyalty. I still love my parents, but I no longer accept that I was completely to blame for my behavior, when I was a child.

    I am particularly moved by and distressed by stories I hear of people, like you, Lucy and others –where the CD just won’t let go, is out to destroy. They can’t tolerate the idea that any mere mortal has any power over them — or even that they are losing power over their victim, now adversary. Many of them can’t just move on to neutral ground.

    That is the gist of Dr.Simon’s article. What happens to these people when their delusions of grandeur are stripped away? They need somebody as a lightening rod for their discontent. That is what you and many others here become, lightening rods.

    Maybe that would be a helpful visualization — to see lightening arcing through you and then discharging it somehow. I think it would help me.

    I survived what may have been a simple attempted con job. That was awful enough. But being married to a moral midget? Horrible! Divorcing them? Harrowing.

    1. LisaO,

      I think you nailed it. The lightening rod. My STBX has been stripped and I am the lightening rod for the discontent. What a visual — Where should I discharge it? That is the frustration. What to do with all this negativity? No Contact most certainly helps. I now have 10 emails not looked at nor answered, and some are of importance, like real tax estate issues, but I have no solution, no money, as I’ve previously told him. It’s now in the lawyers’ hands. What do I do with this frustration? Yesterday I joined the gym and walked on the treadmill for 1 hour then stretched out for about 20 minutes then took a long hot shower. I felt great. Tonight BF is coming over – and I’ll get a different kind of release. hahaha 🙂 Yeah, this CD of mind has totally focused all attentions and energy on me – the victim of his con. I’m thankful I’m a strong woman. This life of torment could certainly destroy a person of less strength (don’t know if that’s the correct word – but the only one I can think of.) This blog has helped me so much. THANK YOU ALL!

      1. Lucy, you naughty girl:)

        Why don’t you visualize discharging the lightning rod back into the CD, multiply it by three, the old Pagan maxim of you get back three times what you wrought?

        Take scented, candlelit baths, have a scented candle in the bedroom to burn down SAFELY while you sleep, and while you drift off, imagine you are surrounded by a white light, a soft shield, psychologically it works.

        Also, imagine all the hurt, pain, humiliation your CD has caused is discharging from your body as a black goo, start from the head and work down to the feet, then send it on it’s way back into HIM!

        Re-charge yourself with a white light, breath slowly, do not think of anything apart from the exercise you are engaged in.

        It’s best to do these exercises while drifting off, as the critical, questioning part of your mind is switching off, and the subconscious is beginning to operate.

        The subconscious is very powerful, good luck:)

          1. Lucy,

            By getting rid of the toxic, you are sending it back to it’s rightful owner, HIM!

            By hanging on to the negative, there are pieces of him inside you, don’t let him shape you, release it all, get rid of it.

            This is the ultimate goal, and will take a long time, and feeling what you are feeling is your right, anger can be useful, but by doing these exercises you prevent build up.

            So release the toxic residue this slug endears in you at the end of each day, so you start afresh the next.

            At home we have a saying “There is always a night”, we would say this to each other if we had a difficult meeting to attend concerning our Son, or something we had to do or somewhere go to and really didn’t want to, it comforted us to know that the awful day ahead WILL end and the night will arrive, safely back home.

            That night is yours, to slough off the damage before doing battle again.

  16. Yep Lucy. We have to think of a really effective visual in terms of discharging their ugly lightening bolts. And maybe people of faith don’t need to do this, they can just call on a higher power to absorb the lightening. I don’t know. It’s all a metaphysical mystery!

    1. LisaO
      Thank you for the kind thoughts. Not as easy as it sounds, it just gives one the ability to give it to God for judgement. Having to deal with them and the feelings is the same, and can become a monumental feat. I believe in the end all will be judged in some realm. I choose that of Christ. Many times we see justice in this lifetime too.

      It is by no means easy at all and it is a constant battle of tears, pain, frustration, and an overwhelming burden. The bath and candle light sounds wonderful, but all is not that easy to forget. Nor is it easy when one doesn’t have a strong network of resources. Its been a constant battle.

      If you find a way to cope that is positive I am usually in support of that too. I just caution there are many ways in which to deflect these lightening bolts, some at the time may give relief, but in the long run may prove disastrous. We have gotten this far and it is encouraging to hear all the people who have had the strength to build and have a better life than they ever thought possible.

      I struggle especially due to my physical limitations and the extreme load I carried for so long. Its difficult, very difficult. The best thing I did was take back my life but am so very tired and exhausted. It makes my heart soar to hear the come backs from these body snatchers. it’s still difficult to comprehend that a person can be so callous and calculating to utterly want to see someone else destroyed in pain.

      An interesting article today, 66 people have the wealth of half the lower income population (3 1/2 billion) in the world. Just think what kind of —— they surely can’t be human. I have no other word for this kind of greed than evil, just as I will always believe the MCDNP are evil.

      1. Tension relief – I’m not goodnatnrelaxing and meditating butnindonfeel a physical and emotional difference in myself while breathing deeply during exercise. The breathing relieves the anxiety and tension from my chest. And the stretching also releases. Deep breathing does wonders.

          1. Yes Donald trump is one of those strange people, his expressions sometimes….is he deliberately creating a caricature of himself for laughs or is he unaware of what he looks like in some photos?

            Don’t forget the hair..:)

        1. Mal-Wart’s employees are forced to rely on food stamps often. Beyond that, the mega corporation has destroyed Main Street USA , in the name of low costs, economies of scale and “efficiency”.

          Where you once found thriving Mom and Pop stores, there are now boarded up store fronts and former employees strung out on OxyContin and meth– or forced to sing the Mal-wart anthem before labouring away all day for peanuts.

          If you were to remake the Andy Griffith show, Aunt Bea would be serving microwaveable corn dogs bought with food stamps from Walmart. Andy would be a security guard at WalMart and Opie would be a runner for a local gang, getting his first tattoos from Floyd the barber.

          The corporatocracy is a Spathocracy and the 66 wealthiest are usually from multigenerational power elite families who have managed to stake out controlling interest in the largest corporations.

          I boycott whenever I can.

      2. BTOV,

        The subconscious is more powerful than normal everyday awareness, it takes practice to do the exercises i’ve mentioned, but they DO work, subtle at first, within a short period of time you will notice a difference, also, it helps with ideas, plans, the way forward, even a different take on things.

        Dreams are VERY interesting when you do this, for sure.

        It’s everyone’s right here to take back their authentic emotions, not ones orchestrated by an underdeveloped, stunted, half human being who actually doesn’t have a true self.

        That’s the ultimate victory over these sad creatures, and in time, you will feel what LisaO said regarding them, indifference.

        Indifference and pity, because indifference comes into play when you realize that the power they had over you has gone, you do not consent to it anymore, they do not effect you, they do not touch you, they simply do not come into the equation in any way at all.

        And pity, because feeling indifferent, you then see them as the empty, craven, incredibly inadequate shells that they really are, they have been stripped of their power utterly.

        And what was that power built on? Lies, projection, deflection, mimicry, how bloody ridiculous!!

        Lastly, if they know you pity them, it may well crush them, and while their own projected darkness and nothingness begins to envelop them, you are all out in the sunshine, seeing the bright colours once again.

        1. Jackie,

          That was beautifully, eloquently explained. I’ll be printing this out and hanging it by my desk for the many times I need some back-up support, reminders.
          I think I’m about half way there to the indifference. And I do pity him. But the anger – him consciously harming me – it angers me. I Do Not Like Being Bullied. But with this Bully – it seems my best fight-back tactic is No Contact. It’s so opposite of what I’d grown accustomed to in what I always thought was defending myself – through my mouth. Yes, different tactics with this CDN bully.

          1. Wow Lucy, thank-you, that IS a compliment:)

            If you are halfway there, you are well on the way, and you’re pitying him, GOOD, GOOD a thousand times!!!

            It’s impossible to dispense with the anger while your affairs are still so intertwined, but this anger is perfectly natural Lucy, allow yourself to feel it, do not feel guilty for feeling it, but visualize the left overs as toxic when you do those exercises, cleanse before sleep.

            No Contact is the only way, in time, if he isn’t already, he will see it as contempt, belittling, looking down on and discarding.

            You are moving to a new home, this home is your new life and he represents the rubbish that you throw away and leave behind as you no longer need, want or desire it anymore.

  17. BYOV

    You’re breaking my heart. I will share with you one thing I learned this week that is helping me live a life – without Constant pain and worry bout- is to focus on what is happening in the moment. 00 percent of the time normal life is happening and I try to live in that moment and not the worry. The worry and anger is always there, but the moments of my day are actually good. It’s the inner workings of that jackass I’m married to that continually stir, but it’s not my entire life. I focus more on the now and live it. I’m not sure if this made sense, but this thought helped me this week to learn to have a life, even while jackass is trying to destroy it.

  18. JTS and GeezWhiz

    Are you alright? and E? I wish you’d all pop in and say hello, check in. I do think of everyone on this site and hope all is well – (as well as can be understand our stinkin circumstances).

  19. Love All,
    Trust Few,

    Take a deep breath.
    Move forward.
    It is the only way to go. In these Stinkin Circumstances .

    1. Ah, have you ever been in a canoe going down the rapids? Most the time you have to let go and let the current take you, if you put your oar out forcing your way, your likely to capsize. The oar acts as the rudder to slightly stear the way to safety.

  20. I like what George write however I am also wondering about this kids role in the household. Maybe he had to fill the role as the spouse of that mother. Aka parentification. That mothers tendency to end up with 2 idiot husband indicates her being codependent and likely brought up by some sick fatherfigure. Just blaming the kid seems lazy. Its good it ended well though.

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