Ways Vulnerable Narcissists Relate

The manner in which we relate to others defines our personality. And the capacity we have to genuinely care for and love others defines our character. Narcissists relate to others in some highly toxic ways. Moreover, each of the two major kinds of narcissists obstruct true intimacy in relationships in different ways.

Narcissists Come in Two Varieties

I’ve mentioned in earlier posts that narcissists come in two varieties. Each type relates in different but nonetheless highly problematic ways. I became aware of this while doing clinical case study research for my books In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance. I used the terms “neurotic” versus “character-disturbed” or disordered type to describe the two types. At the time, there was no research to supporting the notion that there were indeed two types of narcissism. Currently, researchers seem to prefer the labels vulnerable versus grandiose to describe the two types.  Today, I’d like to focus on  vulnerable narcissists and the nature of their relationships.

Dealing with The Approval-Demanding

Words mean things. So, I’m very careful with my words. It’s so important these days to be careful. Too many professionals, authors, and lay persons have played fast and loose with terms. As a result, we’ve lost the true meaning of many important concepts. In the title above, I didn’t say “approval-needy.” Nor did I say, “approval-hungry.” Approval-demanding carries a different connotation. It means the narcissist demands what what they neither need nor what we all rightfully hunger for. And they do so with a sense of entitlement.

Vulnerable narcissists don’t feel like much underneath. That’s because they lack the capacity to love – even themselves. So, they seek the approval of others. It can get so bad that they even seek adoration. And they seek these things in place of being either seen or loved for who they really are. They do all sorts of things to “prove” they’re love-worthy. But they don’t know their true worth. And they neither know how to love nor how to be loved.

The Price of Fawning

When you’re in a relationship with a vulnerable narcissist, as long as you’re fawning all over them things can seem okay. But as many have learned the hard way, you can pay a big price for denying them adulation. As the narcissist sees it, you exist to testify to their worth. That’s because they they haven’t fashioned a balanced or  well-grounded view of their own worth. Pay attention to them and revere them, and all is fine. Ask anything of them, and you’ll quickly learn how “shallow” they are. This makes true intimacy impossible.

Some Concluding Thoughts

I’ll have more to say about relationships with vulnerable narcissists next week. And we’ll be discussing the “grandiose” types in some upcoming posts.

Character Matters will again be broadcast live Sunday at 7 pm EDT. Call in at 718 – 717 – 8296 to ask a question or discuss an issue.

 

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73 thoughts on “Ways Vulnerable Narcissists Relate

  1. Wonderful post Dr. Simon. The approval and attention requirements are endless and absolutely life draining. And my experience is that there is frequently a set-up or some sort of double-bind created to extract that approval and attention. It allows them to force people into some sort of pressure dynamic.

    Love your wonderful books!

    God Bless.

    1. This resonates with me immensely. As a previous partner of a narc, I found myself completely exhausted in the end and withholding the positive adulation that he required. He became unhinged in these months and constantly probed for both good and bad recognition. In the end, he actually said to me “you do not compliment me enough.” This was a 36 year old man. It was in this moment that I realized why I was being punished but my subconscious would no longer allow me to play into this dynamic. I have watched your video Dr. Simon with the woman from Inner Integration. It was in this video that it was asked if the narc realizes what they are doing and you explained it on a spectrum. At times, I felt mine did know but with the comment that he made above, that was a slip of the mask. It was something said as he was completely devoid of supply at that moment and was expressing his desperation. I appreciate the work in this field–it is the only guiding light survivors of this type of relationship abuse have to validate their experiences. Thank you.

      1. Nicole, I just went through the same thing!!! I just ended a relationship with a man who said to me “you never pay me any compliments” WTH??? I didn’t realize until after the relationship was over that I was dealing with a VN… but it’s all so clear to me now and I’m so happy to be away from that person!

  2. It sounds so Hollywood, people fawning over a narcissist. I always thought the worst part of being famous, particularly as a celebrity, would be having to endure that kind of attention.

    I know two vulnerable narcissist men, as friends and they both fit your description, Dr. Simon. Neither one of them knows what it feels like to love deeply and there seems to be a lot of fear and feelings of inadequacy beneath it all. That’s the dominant dynamic.

    But one of them is trying to find himself right now — at least that is the impression I was intended to get…I think. I never know what to believe. It comes from such a shallow place that, even if its true, the path of least resistance is the one most likely to be taken. He will default to his old creepy self.

    I hope for the best. It’s not an easy or enviable personality type to have.

    1. I’ve got one the same LisaO he was showing really positive signs of living more authentically until last night then that approval seeking, looking for validation came creeping back in. I’ve just told the truth. So I expect either the silent treatment or a barrage of abuse not sure which I’ll end up with but I’ll know sooner or later. I know this much I’m not doing the toxic tango with anymore of these types.

  3. Dr. Simon, I am so glad to have found your website. Thank you for your insightful posts. I’ve read a lot of them and started reading your books. I’ll surely go through them with a pen to underline the important points. I look forward to reading your next post.

    I broke up with my vulnerable narcissist few months ago, after being told he is going to marry a woman out of the blue. I confronted him and he said he had been with her since the time he thought things are not going to work between us. He never said so and had been receiving my support and gifts as before.

    I didn’t know he is a narcissist until the breakup. His argument is so irrational, self-centered and confusing that I really find it very ridiculous.

    All along, I thought he is only suffering from depression and anxiety due to the traumas he had in the past 20 years in face of his Narcissist father. I encouraged him to seek professional help which he did. He kept assuring me that he is getting much better and will become the man I met again.

    Ever since I thought we started the relationship, I had been giving him all kinds of encouragement and support to help him gain confidence. I did all that I could to help him develop his dream career and take care of him when he was too ill to work. The tantrum, the silent treatment, the cold shoulder, etc. were served on me with my “flaws” being pointed out. I thought all these were from his depression and anxiety as these were all said in the books I read on how to support a loved one with depression, anxiety and PTSD. I was not happy but I endured thinking that mood disorder can be cured with love and patience.

    The truth is really devastating. All these are so ridiculously to make sense for a normal person. By reading your website and many other websites on narcissism, things started to make sense. It’s extremely painful to know that the man I had loved so much is indeed a monster that had been hiding so much lies behind and his personality disorder is something that can’t be fixed. But at least I know now that no matter how good I am or how hard I tried, things still won’t work out with him. And it was not my fault.

    If he is a grandiose narcissist, I would have stayed away from him because I don’t like arrogant people. My vulnerable narcissist had shown me his vulnerable side which is the biggest trap for me to fall into. It’s a trap anyone with empathy will fall into.

    1. Rabbit – don’t be lured back in again. They can’t be loved back to good health. Then there is another stage that you may come up against and this is the most dangerous one. This is the stage where you think you might have it wrong. You will waste a lot of time and expend a lot of energy and you will go through a good deal of emotional pain if you keep playing with this notion. Get your hands on as much information as you can and really learn about these people. Know how to recognise them then stay away from them.

      The vulnerable narcissist I know I was involved with for 3 years until I ended the relationship due to his inability to be authentic and has cold, callus, nasty and childish tantrums he’d throw when he thought he wasn’t getting the accolades he thought he deserved. After a few years I allowed him back into my life but only as a friend as he seemed to show signs he’d improved. This is of course is only an act. They don’t change and they never will. Despite me being very direct with him in letting him know there was absolutely no hope we would ever get back together again, I thought he’d accepted it and was actually behaving like a rational friend. He’s doing a total reversal back to his old ways now. It comes as no surprise actually. He sent me an email just begging for some adulation and it was his usual delusional tactics of making himself look more important than he is which is an everyday Joe – he wants to be the important engineer now but what really pisses me off about him is the name dropping of people he doesn’t know but thinks for some strange reason I am going to be impressed by this – they really don’t deal in reality. I replied to his email with the truth without fawning adulation which I never gave him anyway the entire time I was with him, this is why he was so explosive. I tell the truth and I don’t feed egos. I’m not a cold person and I don’t speak in ways that cause offense. But with these people you don’t have to. You’ll put them into injury by not giving them what they want – supply. I’ve had the silent treatment for 2 days now and as far as I am concerned he can stay that way forever. I’m not having anymore toxic people in my life and I’ve had the life experiences now I need in order to recognise them and deal with them effectively and quickly.

      I just wanted to give you some additional encouragement to walk away. Please don’t waste your energy on trying to work him out. You can’t fix him, you can’t love them back into good emotional health because they have never been there nor will they ever get there. You will only harm yourself further in the process. Be kind to yourself and just leave him right out of your life. To do otherwise is extremely dangerous.

      1. Eudoxia, thank you for your encouragement. I’ll get myself educated as much as possible. I’ve finished the book “From Charm to Harm” by Gregory Zaffuto and is reading “Becoming the Narcissist’s Nightmare”, while starting Dr. Simon’s “In Sheep’s Clothing” while travelling on the train.

        I had wanted to leave for quite a few times before because it wasn’t a happy relationship, very painful at times. I didn’t because I thought he was struggling and suffering all alone by himself against the aftermath of his father. I had promised him not to let him face it alone.

        Now that I know he is with someone he wants to marry. I should “celebrate” that I can get rid of this burden without feeling bad. It still hurts like hell though. I wish I knew about the other woman earlier, so that I wouldn’t need to bear all those unnecessary pain, stress, heartaches and financial loss these two years (may be longer as he might be lying about this).

        Just can’t believe that you’ve done so much for someone so whole-heartedly, and you still got blamed at the end.

        Victims of emotional abuse can become one of the most dangerous creatures on Earth when they become victimizers themselves. They make use of people’s kindness and empathy to get what they want.

        1. Rabbit,

          “Victims of emotional abuse…”
          That is what he told you. Knowing fully well that he lied about so many other things, will you still believe his sob stories? 🙂
          While it is possible to be victim of emotional abuse from a single person (his father in his case). Usually a person sees lot many people (his mother, school friends, teachers, girlfriend/boyfriend, and lot more people). Very likely it was his choice always, he choose what he wanted to do.

          1. What I meant to say, but didn’t come out well in previous comment…

            “Victims of emotional abuse can become one of the most dangerous creatures on Earth when they become victimizers themselves.”

            Victims of emotional abuse do suffer a lot. But they also meet, not only the abuser, but a lot more people (other parent, school friends, teachers, girlfriend/boyfriend, and lot more people). Most often than not, it is that persons choice who he wants to model himself after.
            Bottomline is that “victim of emotional abuse” defense is very often just an excuse for bad behaviour.

          2. Andy – to true. I have not met one narcissistic type who doesn’t claim to have an abused childhood. My daughter being one of them despite her not being abused as a child at all. It was part of her smear campaign against me. Goodo – I know who my real friends are, those who are not have also exposed themselves so I say good riddance to them! This journey is incredibly painful for all those who are on it but it is also very enlightening and eventually cleansing and freeing.

  4. Dr Craig Malkin says you should use the three “E’s”

    1. Entitlement
    2. Explotative
    3. Empathy Impairment

    If someone has these, you can say they have narcissistic traits

  5. I am sorry for posting three times. I have a great deal of experience of dealing with this Character disordered Type. I cannot warn any one enough of how potentialy dangeous they are. Look up Theresa Knorr . This type of disordered person is explotative and some what parasitic of other people. I lost every thing I loved,liked wanted and achived to my mother and family. Who are extemely covert with their abuse.

  6. Patrick please don’t apologise there is no need to here. Many here have had the exact same thing happen to them. It’s been truly horrific. You will find a lot of support and excellent wisdom here. Without going into more detail of everything I’ve experienced on the receiving end of these sub human species one thing I’ve learned is this: be grateful if anything, be grateful universe gave you the experience you needed in order to identify who the toxic people are in your life. Accept them for what they are and know it’s not your fault, nor can you change them. Nor do you have to keep defending yourself for you have nothing to defend. Nor can you fix it or make it right. The only thing you can do is self nurture and care for yourself. You will be fortunate enough to spot the warning signs should one venture into your midst again. Be kind to yourself, love yourself in a healthy manner and run like there is no tomorrow if you ever meet another one. That’s my plan of action!

  7. I agree with Eudoxia, run like no tomorrow if you meet another one. No good can come of it, they are not capable of a relationship anyways. They only cause destruction, but then I am not telling you guys anything you don’t know!

  8. For everyone that has responded to this post I would love to recommend the book “People of the Lie” by M. Scott Peck.

    As we all know…this whole life experience of ours is simply a journey and a process …a process of awareness and maturity. A process of identification and accountability…both external and internal.

    So much gratitude for Dr. G Simon et al for their contributions to our enlightenment.

    May God bless we all who are pilgrims on our journey to the Celestial city:-) Amen

    1. Lisa – I’ve never read it but I’ve read excerpts of it. Without reading the entire book the general gist of the book is that evil exists and the only way to eradicate evil is by giving no energy to it. We must be accountable for ourselves and stay true to our path. Stay authentic and always seek truth, knowledge and understanding – a lie has many connotations, the truth has none. We must be the best people we can be without adulteration. We must never compromise on truth or integrity and we can never allow others to restrict that. The only time I have only really done that is to avoid narcissistic rage by those I have known and I will never do it again. This is the soul destroying job of the CD and I am fast coming to the realisation that it is their sole purpose on this plane. To restrict and strangle our ties to God. They really are the epitome of true evil.

      1. Eudoxia,
        “People of the Lie” is a good book. In case it help, my notes…
        Lying is way to evil. It is people who choose to lie, and lie over a period of time, leading the path down to evilness.
        One small incident mentioned in the book that I remember is about a couple. Their eldest son commits suicide by a gun that was gifted by parents. Parents gift the very same gun to their younger child, who was understandably disturbed by everything that happened. But, parents were simply unconcerned. When psychiatrist suggested that the boy be sent to his aunt for change of environment, and the boy too was enthused, the parents immediately attempted veto. Only when psychiatrist told them clearly that he has authority do that, only then those parents conceded. The crux of whole situation was that those parents repeatedly lied to others and self to maintain some facade, and kept doing so even when their first born died, and they were still unconcerned about second one just to maintain the fake image or whatever they wanted to project. I guess those parents will be evil in their own insidious way. They were bad enough to drive their own children to death. And yet not bad enough in legal terms to be prosecuted for their crimes – main one being keeping fake mask, lack of empathy, the usual small narcissistic stuff well protected by lies over a long life.

        1. It’s unbelievable they could do that. But then again they aren’t really altogether human are they. I think I’ll definitely get that book, it sound good. There is another excerpt from it I found very cringe worthy but a good analysis particularly relevant to CDs:

          “When I say that evil has to do with killing, I do not mean to restrict myself to corporeal murder. Evil is that which kills spirit. There are various essential attributes of life — particularly human life — such as sentience, mobility, awareness, growth, autonomy, will. It is possible to kill or attempt to kill one of these attributes without actually destroying the body. Thus we may “break” a horse or even a child without harming a hair on its head.

          Erich Fromm was acutely sensitive to this fact when he broadened the definition of necrophilia to include the desire of certain people to control others-to make them controllable, to foster their dependency, to discourage their capacity to think for themselves, to diminish their unpredectibility and originalty, to keep them in line. Distinguishing it from a “biophilic” person, one who appreciates and fosters the variety of life forms and the uniqueness of the individual, he demonstrated a “necrophilic character type,” whose aim it is to avoid the inconvenience of life by transforming others into obedient automatons, robbing them of their humanity.

          Evil then, for the moment, is the force, residing either inside or outside of human beings, that seeks to kill life or liveliness. And goodness is its opposite. Goodness is that which promotes life and liveliness.”
          ― M. Scott Peck, People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil

          1. To all who haven’t read People of the Lie, I would encourage them to do so. I believe what Dr. Peck was trying to get across was the fact that the parents of the boy that killed himself, hearts had become so cold and hardened, that not even for a moment could the parents fathom they had anything to do with their sons death and the younger sons behavior.

            The books title tells it all, they truly do believe a lie. No matter how outrageous their behavior is, they refuse to own it. In some cases the CDN does know the wrong he has committed, but immediately damage control is turned and projected onto another.

            Speaking of Dr. Peck, he is the Dr. who wrote A Road Less Traveled.
            In fact Dr. Peck wrote many books all of which I think are beneficial to ones growth as a human being.

        2. AndyD – no one is protected by lies. I came upon this today.

          A Word to Narcissists and their Many Victims………………

          I would like to ask the reader a question to set the stage for what I want to convey here. Have you ever, as a child, been accused of something you didn’t do, either by your parents, teachers or other ‘authorities’? And if so, were you punished unfairly for this something you didn’t do? Do you remember how it felt?

          As you remember , can you feel the frustration, the helpless anger and resentment that you “told the truth and no one believed you”? YOU know what you did or did not do, and no one can take that away from you. But they have taken away from you the right for that truth to be known by others, which means they have taken away the right of others to know the truth about you. You have been slandered and punished, and there is NO WAY you can prove that it was wrong and unjust, and all the other people will have a ‘memory’ of you that is false. In fact, this knowledge that others will have false memories of you, will have false ideas about what you did until they die, hurts almost worse than the punishment. What is more, in a vague way, you can perceive that those who believe the lie have been deprived of something valuable about you, a sharing of the real you: the truth that you did not do what you were accused of doing, and that you did tell the truth. A barrier has been erected between you and the others – the barrier of a lie.

          This is the world we live in. A world of lies where only those seeking truth will emerge in truth for nothing else matters and it won’t matter to those who deal in lies for they know not the truth. Is that you? Does it matter? God knows the truth and so do you, so yes, it matters.

          1. Eudoxia,

            Yes, we live in a world of lies, and God and ourselves know the truth, and that IS what really matters. Living a life transparently, honestly and with integrity with high moral character may hopefully mitigate the effects of false accusations which we have all suffered.

            I learned many years ago that I can’t change what people think or say about me and won’t bother trying to set the record straight because once someone believes something it’s almost impossible to change their opinion unless I showed proof of my innocence, which usually is unlikely. I find solace in remembering that mankind is not my judge or jury and only myself and God knows the truth, God knows my heart and in the end that is all that matters.

  9. Does anyone have an adult child who exhibits these traits? Most of what is written involves narcissistic parents of adults and how to recover from them. Our son got involved with a young lady who wants nothing to do with us. Her mother was borderline personality. Makes us wonder….Anyone?

    1. My then 21 year-old adult daughter married a guy who was a control freak and jealous, exhibiting many narcissistic traits. He was very divisive and would intentionally cause arguments to try to keep my daughter away from her family. When she filed for divorce after 3 years of marriage (no children thank God) her husband called me and invited me out for coffee. He spent two hours telling me how he had done many wrong things and why he had tried to keep our daughter away, he was following the same estrangement pattern of his parents with his mother’s parents. It was a troubling but enlightening conversation and fortunately I had the foresight to record it using my phone recording app, because the next day my daughter called and laid into me and accused me of all sorts of lies that he said I had admitted to him. I responded, “Am I being set up? I didn’t say that and I have a recording if you want to listen to it.” She was very embarrassed and disgusted and knew she had been duped by a master manipulator.

      Huge warning signs – good luck to you!

  10. Paula I do – my daughter. They exhibit the same traits, there is no difference. The only difference is the type of aggressive style they are. You need to do as much research as you can. I highly suggest you obtain a copy of Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing ASAP. These people are highly destructive and toxic. They are ruthless and their cruelty knows no bounds. They will stop at nothing to get what they want and if you get in their way the level of punishment that will be met out is dependent on their specific style. The below excerpt is taken from the DSM 4TR that was the one prior to the DSM 5 however, the diagnostic criteria still stands only that a lot more information is now available and expanded upon but from other sources and in my opinion much better sources.

    The most destructive of these types of people will break up relationships as most of them operate so covertly they will get in and start undermining stability. For them to pull this off successfully they will need unrestricted access to their target. They will have many targets, they will target people for supply – learn what this is. Understand narcissitic supply and injury. Understand the term gaslighting. Then there are other targets, those are the ones the CD deems as a threat to their specific goal or they have deemed to have too much influence over their supply in this case your son. BE CAREFUL. Under NO circumstances do you let on you suspect anything. Before you take any course of action at all you have to have as much knowledge about their tactics and strategies as humanly possible. You are dealing with more than just a psychiatric illness you are dealing with pure evil. Evil has no limits to what it will or will not do to secure it’s target.

    In the interim listen to some UTube talks on narcissism by Lisa Romano and Meridith Miller (Inner Integration) and as many others as you can get your hands on. Others here will recommend others. There are plenty out there. People who come to this blog have had their entire lives ruined by these assholes. They’ve including myself have had friends and family turn on us without recourse. Understand what a narcissists smear campaign is. I have attached a link below to a talk by Meridith Miller on this. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiqnqKAtFOE

    To tackle one of these people without the right information, knowledge and strategies is (in every case) detrimental to your health and well being and those of others. And that is putting it mildly. It’s like trying to take out a vampire without having knowledge of what it is or how to kill it and I mean it! Take on board what Meridith is saying about dealing with smear campaigns because this is important. I was the victim of two over the past 18 months. In one case my daughter turned almost my entire family against me including my best friend (who is as toxic as the daughter anyway) so I’m glad she’s out of my life now. In another case I had a relationship break up by another predatory aggressive. YOU NEED KNOWLEDGE! I can’t stress that enough Paula. Make it a priority and just hope you are wrong about your son’s girlfriend, but forewarned is forearmed.

    3.01.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder – Diagnostic Criteria

    A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

    1. has a grandiose sense of self importance e.g. exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognised as superior without commensurate achievements
    2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty or ideal love
    3. believes he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with other special or high-status people (or institutions)
    4. requires excessive admiration
    5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e. unreasonable expectations of especially favourable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
    6. is interpersonally exploitive i.e. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
    7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognise or identify with feelings and needs of others
    8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of them
    9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

    Good luck and keep posting you will get a lot of good advice here and a strong support network. You also need someone you can trust implicitly who is loyal and can’t be compromised or turned against you particularly if you find yourself the target of a smear campaign and chances are quite good that she will target you. They like to isolate their prey from their emotional support. They like them to become totally dependent on them. You can’t allow this to happen but you must know how to play the game and it’s a very dangerous game. Catching rattle snakes has less risk and that is not an exaggeration.

    Just remember, these people can’t be cured and they can’t be fixed. Nor can you ever fully repair a mess left behind by one.

    1. Hi Eudoxia,

      It sounds like you have had your hands full! I don’t know if I would classify a true borderline or a ‘vulnerable,’ narcissist as ‘pure evil’ though.

      I think I’d leave that description for sadistic sociopaths and psychopaths. But ‘pure anger,’ could definitely be used to describe other CD types who are obstructed in any way, regardless if the roots of their anger are in fear or aggression.

      1. Hiya LisO – I agree with that. The term pure evil does apply to those at the other end of the spectrum. Unfortunately I’ve had more to do with them than the other kind. I want nothing to do with any of them ever again, however, in saying that it seems the old guy in my care is a vulnerable narcissist. What I’m finding with him is a way for me to work on my own strategies for dealing with them when we have to. I’m not starting to keep a journal. He can’t damage me though because I am aware of his condition and have been able to establish solid boundaries. All in all he’s pretty harmless and pure evil he sure isn’t. Like you said earlier he’s a product of tragedy. He’s helping me to understand this condition much better and I’m helping him to be more accountable for his own behavior. He also has mild Aspergers – he’s been quite a challenge. But there are ways of managing their condition PROVIDING you aren’t in a love relationship with them or a close relationship with them and as long as they are not on the other end of the spectrum in which case you don’t want to be anywhere around them in any capacity.

  11. Hi Paula,

    Borderline personalities develop obsessive focus on an object of desire (your son?) and place that person on a pedestal. After a time they will ‘split black’ as it’s referred to, or come to despise the same person. It’s like a switch is flipped. It’s not due to arrogance, or necessarily a sense of entitlement. The roots of borderline personality originate in childhood and usually involve real legitimate abandonment fear.

    Borderlines are the product of tragedy. It is a terrible disorder and awful for anyone who attempts to have a relationship with them, as Eudoxia describes. The behavior is very malignant narcissist like, but comes from a very different place.

    1. LisaO,
      “The roots of borderline personality originate in childhood and usually involve real legitimate abandonment fear.

      Borderlines are the product of tragedy. It is a terrible disorder and awful for anyone who attempts to have a relationship with them, as Eudoxia describes. The behavior is very malignant narcissist like, but comes from a very different place.”

      When my younger sibling was approx. 7 years old I was 13, older male siblings 19 and 21 my younger sib turned very weird and started refusing to go to school. My mother told me many years later that because of his behavior it became the most troubling time in hers and my fathers marriage. The youngest got to the point where he was taken to a psychologist and he was promised whatever he revealed would be kept confidential. To this day no one knows anything for sure.
      I’ve gone NC with the younger sibling for 2 years now, he has been a total arsehole for as long as I can remember. Everything Eudoxia posted April 3rd rang true. I was thankful to find this site but astonished to realize how many boxes my younger brother checked off. I confronted him one day and it was horrifying to watch his mask fall. An incredible eye opener for sure.

      Is this all because my mother jokingly said in a moment of frustration that she might not be home one day when we came home from school?? We knew my mother was simply expressing a moment of frustration to having to get 4 people out the door one morning and we were not co-operating. My mother was a homemaker who was there everyday of our lives and especially doted on the youngest who was her last baby. So for that one statement my mother made could this be why he terrorized, manipulated, lied, emotionally abused and alienated targets throughout his life? Is this why he identifies himself as an introvert when he is actually anti social? My parents both passed away thinking everything was their fault and no matter what kindness they showed to their CD son he considered it a weakness and manipulated them more. My questioning your post isn’t meant to be argumentative it has simply made me wonder about my mother’s statement that day and not for the first time either. For us three older children we would have probably laughed and maybe even have replied “yeah sure mom, that’d be the day.” but is it possible the youngest thought it could be true? In every way all four children experienced two loving parents in a secure environment.

      1. SYdNeY,

        “Is this all because my mother jokingly said in a moment of frustration that she might not be home one day when we came home from school?? … made me wonder about my mother’s statement that day and not for the first time either. For us three older children we would have probably laughed and maybe even have replied “yeah sure mom, that’d be the day.” but is it possible the youngest thought it could be true? In every way all four children experienced two loving parents in a secure environment.”

        In my opinion, a single small incident is meaningless. The systematic behavior stated in your last sentence is what matters.

        I think you are simply beating yourself up, just like your parents did, in a most traditional neurotic way. “Maybe this…, maybe that…”. It is no different that someone hitting you on your head with a stick on every Sunday, and you wondering maybe your plain regular hair style is too funky for decent God fearing folks who turn bit more religious on Sundays.

        The truth is much closer to following:
        – he has been a total arsehole for as long as I can remember
        – confronted him one day and it was horrifying to watch his mask fall. An incredible eye opener for sure.

        If your parents made any mistake, then it was simply that they failed to realize youngest ones temperament and nature, and hence could not take necessary corrective measures in time.
        It is simply a failure to understand human nature. Most of us tend to think in pro-social manner, and we assume that others (who are not in jail) must be similar. I too made this mistake with my wife, I took her rage to be real instead of pinning her wrong behavior squarely on her. I gave her too much benefit of the doubt, when I clearly caught her inconsistencies. I did not probe or question her, assuming she is normal adjusting person like me.

        1. Continuing the self-doubting thinking…

          It is no different that someone hitting you on your head with a stick on every Sunday, and you wondering maybe your plain regular hair style is too funky for decent God fearing folks who turn bit more religious on Sundays. And, you change your hair style every Sunday including going bald on occasions, hoping for better but instead getting your regular quota of stick. 🙂

          1. Andy D,

            I’m not self-doubting and my parents are gone now so no longer in pain trying to figure him out. The oldest sibling lives 500 miles away and is married to his own CD but there is one sibling here that is in my life and his wife believes in forgiveness because she is a born again Christian, thinks because she asked the youngest brother for an apology and disappeared that she is somehow at fault for his going silent. She doesn’t get that he would never take responsibility for anything and an apology will never happen. I have tried countless times to get it through her head what her brother-in-law is and she still keeps bringing it up.

            I digress, it’s because of this statement “The roots of borderline personality originate in childhood and usually involve real legitimate abandonment fear.” that I wonder if CD aka dickface had a fear of abandonment and because of this fear something more was triggered. I realize this would never excuse his behavior.

          2. I apologize for popping in on this convo right here. AndyD, I think this is one of your best comments, ever. I couldn’t help myself saying, Yes, Yes and another Yes.

            Paula, I think Eudox gave good advise. I don’t agree with the medical terminology used for lesser and greater narcs. I will say their intent is always to do harm and only think of themselves, in this I see all narcs are evil. In the right circumstances they all narcs are capable of horrendous acts. Never, underestimate the ill will they can and will create.

            Maybe, not today, not tomorrow, but with time they always become more corrupt in their thinking and strategising for supply.
            The medical terminology just doesn’t fit.

            Patrick, I just commented 3 in a row. It’s OK everyone does it at some time or another. Glad your posting.

      2. Sydney,

        By the way you have described your brother, my guess would be anti-social, not borderline. Borderlines are generally sensitive individuals born into chaos. Their sensitivity is a liability and they can cause great harm because of it. It makes them very unstable.

        Borderline personality, to me, is represented by the character of Alex, in ‘Fatal Attraction.’ An older movie, ‘Play Misty for Me’ revolved around the protagonist becoming involved with a borderline woman and the ensuing chaos.

        Borderlines can be merely obnoxiously immature, all the way to dangerous.

        1. LisaO you’re right he is anti-social but identifies as introverted. I didn’t connect with the borderline part of the quote so now I’ve realized where I was off. I guess I always think about the experiences I read about here is mainly about CDs. Oops.

      3. Sydney,

        Please don’t underestimate the perceptions of a 7 year old, the threat of a doting mother abandoning him could have been very terrifying! Another thing to consider is the large age differences between the children – you were in school by the time your younger brother was born and he had mom all to himself. I too, have a sibling 11 years younger and she is a narcissist and became that way by being spoiled, very spoiled, where she ordered lobster when we went out for dinner and my parents let her have it. Not true for the other siblings, we got hamburgers, the parents ordered steak, and my parents changed the rules 21 years after the birth of their first.

        My oldest sister and older brother are narcissists – they were made that way by my parents as well. The oldest sister was in charge of the 5 younger ones and she bullied us. She was entitled and didn’t have to earn anything, everything was given to her just as the youngest sibling. The older narcissist brother was picked on by my dad and oldest brother so he had a chip on his shoulder and became very determined to become a financial success and he has far exceeded everyone’s expectations. But he’s an arsehole, too, and his grandiosity is over the top.

        So out of 7 children, 3 are narcissists and were created by the parents. But here’s another interesting fact – that older siblings can be very harmful and abusive to younger siblings and happened in my family. I was tormented, scared, teased, manipulated, verbally and physically abused, and sexually abused by both an older sister and brother. The older siblings threatened me if I tattled and even when I tried to say anything I got into trouble for tattling. It was a battle even trying to get my basic needs met, sneaking dog food before dinner was common for another sister and me.

        What I guess I’m trying to say is that you may not know the history of your family dynamics and may never know. I attempted to tell my oldest narcissistic sister about the sexual abuse a few years ago and was devastated and felt re-victimized when she started her crazy-making tactics and twisted everything around to make it all about her. She didn’t want to hear it or believe it, she only wanted to believe her childhood and family was perfect. Who really knows what happened to your younger sibling? Maybe compassion is the best strategy, even if you no longer see him.

  12. How come when my npdParent wanted to see a therapist with me, the therapist did not understand it would be bad for me, after I informed the therapist my npdMother was too enmeshed? I explained it so clearly to the therapist that we needed to end after one or two sessions because my npdMother is too enmeshed. I thought the therapist would know what the word “enmeshed” means.

    The therapist nodded when I explained this to her one-on-one and I thought she saw my side of the story.

    But when we were in the room with my npdMother the therapist kept siding with my npdMother in scheduling more and more sessions. I am not allowed to stand up to my npdMother alone (even though I am grown and live in my own place) because npdMother will say I have an “anger problem” and sick all the relatives on me.

    I wish I could sue that therapist. She was very arrogant when I tried to confront her one-on-one, when I asked her what happened when I tried so hard to set boundaries in therapy, that the therapist *helped* my npdMother break the boundaries. The therapist scoffed at me, rolled her eyes and said “that was YEARS ago” when it had happened 18 months prior. The experience upended my job and where I was living. I wish that therapist did not have a license to practice.

    Please beware there are bad bad therapists out there.

    1. Therapists who have concluded that fear underlies all problematic behavior and disorder, go off on tangents because they are operating under an unproven set of assumptions that feed their belief system.

      There are some hard wiring problems with the severely disordered who are, at base, aggressive. This is their root problem, not fear. Of course a therapist operating in a bubble of belief, would say that there is fear under the anger, or low self esteem.

      This is based on the false assumption that everybody’s ‘true self’ is basically good and kind and socially adjusted.

      They are wrong. Search Dr. Simon’s articles and books for more info about this.

      1. LisaO I have searched and read his books. I am trying to help him get the word out about bad therapists. I dealt with my npdMother all my life and was doing fine, I had my “system” for keeping her at bay. This “system” was developed over time by reading self-help books and empowerment concepts.

        Then a Phd therapist who has very little experience with aggressive types insisted she could “help” me. This Phd as an idiot and I am repulsed by a hack profession that agreed to give this woman, a Phd, plus a license to practice.

        It’s a disgusting profession because a few therapists are actually good at what they do. But there is no way to weed out the bad apple therapists who tell their clients what to do, who are arrogant when given feedback that they violated boundaries. The damage this Phd woman did by violating my boundaries JUST AS my life was gaining traction in a new area caused so much chaos it blew apart my entire family. It caused harm to 1) my* life, 2) my siblings’ lives, 3) my father’s life and 4) my nieces and nephews lives.

        Until the profession comes up with a way to correct this problem and gets more strict standards I will continue to warn people away from this fake, hack profession.

  13. The basic difference between Borderline and Narcissism is that Borderlines are clingy.
    Narcissists are independant.

    Aggression can mean the action of attacking without provocation.
    This is part of a narcisists. The can lash out at you. If you challenge their sense of superiority. Also if you do not attend to their sense entitlement this can cause an aggressive outburst

    1. Narcissists may display independence but at the same time be clingy too. Their are many CDN that fear abandonment too. A narcissist can be a genre of diagnoses wrapped up in one. These truly are malignant and can go ballistic.

      Read and become knowledgeable, watch carefully, and keep the knowledge you glean to yourself. Never share what you have learned with the CDN, you will only make them the wiser.

      1. Welcome back BTOV! Your post brings to mind the following:

        Never give unto dogs that which is Holy. Never caste pearls before swine for they will trample them under foot then turn and tear you to pieces.

  14. When you’re in a relationship with a vulnerable narcissist, as long as you’re fawning all over them things can seem okay. But as many have learned the hard way, you can pay a big price for denying them adulation.

    This resulted in me being arrested. Nothing came of it. But She my mother had killed me. Every thing I was and to a certain degree will ever be. 8 months later I moved into my own appartment. It took me nearly 50 yrs to realize what a calouse and selfish women she was. I have not seen or spoken to any of my so called family in nearly 2 years. I have been told that my mother has died. I could not careless. She robbed me of a life. She ruled and ruined mine. I do like Dr George Simon so very much. Knowledge is power. I realize that it is not my fault. Some people are so very skilled in the art of the Con.

    1. Patrick they are very good at making you out to be the crazy and violent one. They are demons in disguise. I found it very beneficial to talk about it. But you can only talk about it to those you trust and who know by first hand knowledge and experience what it’s like to be on the receiving end of these dark souls. Because until you are, you will never get the gist of it and most people even when they are actually on the receiving end cant fathom it at all let alone someone who has not experienced it. For those who have no understanding say nothing otherwise they can inadvertently cause more emotional wounding. You don’t need that at this stage and nobody ever does.

      It takes years for the penny to finally drop. Sadly in many cases people will end up in these relationships for their entire lives thinking there is something wrong with them after enduring years of having the CDs version of reality spun for them about them force fed to them. This is the soul killing part.

      This is the time for you to take your healing journey. Lisa Romano says the following:

      “A narcissist’s agenda is to not see you, to not acknowledge you. In the course of my life I can’t begin to tell you how many times I’ve been on the receiving end of others actively ignoring everything I say. Or if they do listen they will debunk, belittle, trivialize and condemn everything. They will constantly contradict, interrupt, change the subject or pretend they did not hear/understand what’s been said. It’s all about emotional torture and they know it and they relish it. Their goal is to not validate you, your thoughts, feelings and opinions. You are just an object to them. And resisting this is suffering. I am finally ‘ok’ with their narcissistic agenda and I’ve detached from them. I no longer care if I matter to them or not. In fact, in some strange way I’m glad that I don’t matter to them because it absolves me of all responsibility towards them. And in reality, I really did not wish to be involved with narcissists in the first place, so it’s a blessing in disguise. In a way, narcissists set their victims free simply by being narcissists. Their very nature frees you from them”.

      It seems you have accepted the situation and have gone NC. It’s still painful nonetheless. BTOV recommended M Scott Pecks books and so did Andy D – People of the Lie and A Road Less Traveled. I am going to buy them and am sourcing them now. Joey another commenter here not so long ago also recommended Dark Souls by Sarah Strudwick. Keep writing Patrick and keep being you and don’t let another person try to stop you from being otherwise. Good riddance to bad rubbish I say also.

      1. Patrick,
        The book Eudox recommended is excellent, I have read it and it is an eye opener. Remember the CDMNSP are chameleons. Don’t let them steal your whole life from you.

        This might be an odd way of looking at the years we lost because of them but when we can turn it around and use it for good, we have not lost. Use your knowledge to help others. Reach out and touch another, bring a life back from the brink of destruction. When you can do this you have received a gift.

        Patrick, I read this blog for years before I started posting and I have made friends and I know I have helped others, you can do the same.
        Blessings

        1. Btov, such good advice. Take what you learn and try to help others. It is the only way forward. I hope you are doing well and feeling physically better these days, btw!

          1. LisaO, Patrick

            LisaO, thank you for asking. I just went through several difficult days and am doing better. It’s not an easy road but I k now so many have it far worse than me. I look at my Sis and I am grateful. Besides, the pain keeps me humble, accepting it, in that light it keeps me humble. A place I would rather be than with the Proud. Perhaps, I will talk more about it and you guys can cheer me up.

            Patrick, if you are here giving your testimony and finding peace, than you are whole. Maybe, a little broken, bent and torn, but nonetheless, still Patrick. My heart goes out to you, like most of us here, we have experienced pain and suffering by the hands and minds of the CD, so you are not alone. There are horror stories you can read in the archives , ongoing stories and new posters telling of the current torment and torture the CD are capable of dishing out.

            There are also many success stories of individuals who broke away and took back their lives. Going on to be an inspiration to others. Many times becoming a better person had they not suffered through their personal tragedies. I for one, will say, because of what I have gone through and it ain’t pretty, all in all it has helped me grow into a stronger, empathetic, compassionate person.

            I encourage you to become one of the torch bearers, to lead others to the truth. Fight back, by helping others, at the same time learning and growing in knowledge and truth. Every time you do this you will regain part of your truth back, becoming the authentic you, Patrick. Everyone adds something to the mix and we all learn from each other. Everyone here will support and uplift you and validate your experiences.

            I know all of us, welcome you to stay as long as you like, become part of our community. I am assuming you are a male and it is always nice to hear from a mans perspective. I have decided to make these the best years of my life and you can do the same. Many of us are far older than you. You are on your way to healing some of those wounds, otherwise , you would not had stayed.

            Again, welcome from all of us.

      2. Patrick they are very good at making you out to be the crazy and violent one. They are demons in disguise.

        Then you discover ” In sheep’s Clothing” Understanding and dealing with Manipulative People. I cryed my heart out.
        The reason is I understand that every happy time was a lie. The abuse was the only real part of my entire life.

        1. Patrick,

          I agree, they are the crazy, violent ones. I also, believe they are evil and demonic. Instead of thinking about yesterday and I know it feels like it just happened but we are in a different time and place in our life. I know that when I first read Dr. Simons book many years ago what an eye opener it was for me. We, at least I know I live in the here and now. Patrick, I know the people on this blog are kind and decent folks and for that I am grateful, it makes me happy to know everyone here cares about me.

          Take care of and be kind to yourself, if not for a day at a time, an hour at a time. If you stay living in the past, she will positively have succeeded in destroying you. You alone have the choice to live out and find happiness in your life. You alone have the power to say NO MORE. The best revenge is living life well. You win, she loses.
          It is a choice we all have had to make or are still making.
          (((((Hugs))))))

    2. Patrick, It’s terrible what your mother did to you. Do you think you will ever come to terms with it and someday find the love that you deserve? Do you have a spiritual or religious faith that can sustain you? It must be terrible to feel so abused and for so long.

      1. NO
        She stole over half of my life from me. My career, my reputation, I suffered with panic attackes for nearly 20 years

  15. Hi Patrick, I am not minimizing your suffering when I ask why you think the happy times weren’t real? Do you mean that even when things were pleasant enough that you were still living under a dark cloud of dysfunction?

    Is it possible that you can find inner peace, Patrick? Do you have any idea what that might take? I have an anxiety disorder but not panic attacks. That must be terribly difficult. I think I had one once and it was a revelation. I am happy I had it so I know what they are like.

    I hope you don’t mind me asking these questions. I am one of many here, I am sure, who are concerned when we read about the degree of difficulty you have had.

    1. I am happier now. But I am nearly 50 yrs old. I have no truthful memories of my mother. I lived in her house until I was 47 years old. Rather than argue with her over my arrest. I just started to say BYEEEEEEEEEEE,GOOD BYEEEEEEEEE.
      See you later, take care of your self GOOD BYE. I through in the towl.
      The biggest thing I learnt was TO KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT.

  16. Btov, sorry to hear you’ve had some bad days. Please feel free to write about it. It might help with the burden. My energy is diminishing and it takes less to trigger pain now. Often I feel like I am eighty years old. Strangely though, when I start to feel like ‘I just can’t go on’ (cue violins LOL) it will lift the following day, at least for a little while.

    It honestly feels like some kind of emotional, physical endurance test. It’s like the trickster is involved somehow! Oh drat. I know you understand and keep perspective on your own physical issues by comparing your problems to those who are worse off. But still…some days it is really tough. Stay strong!

    1. LisaO,

      It sounds like we suffer the same ailments, I feel like I am 80 many days too.
      Then I get teased with a break and feel fine and just when I start to think its better, bam, slam, thank you sir, for reminding me I’m 85. I have to laugh about it, can’t do anything about it, but wait for a reprieve.
      (((((Hugs Kindred Spirit))))) and yes Blessings to you!

  17. Patrick,

    In response to the above convo between you and LisaO, LisaO is one of the old timers, she is a very logical and a deep thinker, above all she is a compassionate, kind and an empathetic humanitarian. LisaO, was trying to help you look for a positive in all the negative stuff.

    I myself have PTSD and have suffered panic attacks and they can be very frightening. My childhood was weighed down by N abuse too. I know what it truly is like to be hungry, cold and have very little of anything. I was given a private education which I am grateful for, and let me tell you they were strict.

    We had few toys when we were little as there were 8 of us. A piece of chalk, rope and a ball can go a long way. Including a jar to find insects. So ones mind thinks of things and to turn off the never ending noise I lost myself in reading. I won’t go into other kinds of abuse.

    There are times I look back at and I do smile, the pleasures I received from such simple things, nothing of which the kids of today could fathom. There were many unhappy, ugly times, many of them. Most of my siblings are still stuck back then, living their past over and over. They don’t, can’t, won’t bring themselves out of the past and live in the here and now.

    I am not saying those memories will go away or you may have recall that pulls you back to those dark places, at times. What I gathered from what LisaO was trying to ask you, wasn’t there any good memories for you in your past that you could recount. LisaO, was trying to help you point to something good in your past that could help replace some of those ugly memories.

    I know, I would lay on the ground and look at the clouds roll by and dream of the mansions beyond them. These small moments in time will come back to me on days I see the wonderful beauty in the clouds, this small wonder helped me.

    We all would like to see some happiness returned to you. We don’t mean to discount or invalidate your experiences. I hope you keep posting and in time are able to find some peace.

  18. The only way to get over panic attacks is to ride the storm. I got tunnel vision. But ride them I did. I am about 95% better now

  19. Patrick,

    If you don’t mind I would like to ask you some questions in order to better understand your particular situation. I am in no way trying to be insensitive. Rather, I want to understand you as a person better, I think all of our regular posters would. They are a loving group and truly want to help one another. At times we have had intrusive individuals which we refer to as trolls and others who are just plain argumentative or whatever. We all don’t necessarily agree but respect the others rights to disagree. I feel this way about the individuals who have posted consistently for a long time such as LisaO, AndyD, Lucy, Eudox and some others.

    I have a Sis that is a paraplegic and has schizophrenia and I am her guardian, I also have other issues myself and a family full of CD’s. I missed when you first started posting and would like to go back and read yours from the beginning.

    Dr. Simon’s goal is to educate society as a whole about the CD. This blog is mainly for victims to learn about CDMNSP and as in the Commandments of Character how we can take back our lives and heal. I see the potential of you healing and going forward, not an easy road to travel but nonetheless, we have a clear road map here.

    I know everyone here wants the same for you, if you stay you will find an unseen family that crosses oceans and connects us in sharing our grief and stories. We also share hugs, holds, crys of joy and pain for each other and then there is prayer. As a former poster named Elva, a very special lady in her own right would say.

    Hope and Peace

  20. WOW I’ve only been gone 24 hours and it feels like a week! Some really great posts guys that’s all of you as usual :- You have a great support group here Patrick and you will come to know the guys/gals here as friends in time. I can’t add to too much to what BTOV and LisaO have already said but there is one thing that stands out above the rest and that is – as a result of our suffering and it has been extreme we have emerged stronger, more balanced, loving and compassionate people. We are experiencing the full range of human experience from the depths of despair to the instant of finding peace, freedom and hope when we experience an AH HA moment and the penny finally drops. Finding a spiritual connection at this point in time is the ulitmate goal I believe. I think these experiences are designed and are thrown at us in order to help us evolve as humans and I am now starting to see other patterns emerge which I will touch on a bit later.

    I and others and you too Patrick are now finding solace in each other and sharing experiences. You have found some new friends here who will have your back. I find it eases the burden we all carry, that of sometimes years of being misunderstood and misinterpreted and just seen in the wrong light thanks to the lies of others and their own cowardice. We are finally beginning to see after a period of great darkness, that the light at the end of the tunnel is not necessarily an oncoming train and that there is hope. What I am finally accepting is that anybody who was turned against me was never a friend to begin with. They are cowards above all, humans who refuse to accept they will never have the childhood they want and continue to hold others responsible for their own childhood wounding. Emotionally and voilently lashing out at others for any misperceived slight and wounding others with their own unresolved wounding. For what ever reason they chose the path of the CD not the path of the spiritual warrior. Those who refuse to look at their own darkness but instead cast it upon others to take the burden for them as they do not wish to be responsible for their own choices or own their own emotions. They have abdicated all responsibility in this area – they are not worth our time of day. I am no longer going to be a drop down screen for another’s projections or a punching bag for their unprocessed emotions. They can go to hell in a hand basket. It’s poetic justice really. While we are finding out who our true friends are, they are surrounding themselves with their own lowly types that have about as much loyalty to others as a rattle snake. Salute! They have lost a great deal, on the other hand we have gained a great deal.

    If anybody has not read Dan Millman The Way of the Peaceful Warrior I can strongly recommend it. It’s a good one to read on the healing journey. I read it some years ago now but may have to order it again. I loaned it out and have never got it back. But that’s okay because hopefully it’s getting read by many and not sitting collecting dust on a book shelf somewhere.

    Much love to everybody!
    xx

  21. Eudox,

    Thank you, for the lovely post, you hit home about so many things. To think our life experiences have brought us all together at such a unique place (Dr. Simon’s blog) in time. Whereas, before, we would have had to suffer in silence and confusion. I say let the SUN SHINE IN……. Yes, this is a refuge of comfort and knowledge, but the support group we have here, all of you, are amazing.

    God Bless all of you and may his light shine upon you and give you peace.
    To you Dr. Simon and family may God grant you long life and happiness, you have given us so much. Thank you

  22. I’m in the middle of a traumatic and devastaing divorce after 22 years living with a Covert Narcissist . Living in a suppressing and degrading, soul-sucking environment I only recognised the seriousness of it after I’d woken. His true self is really spilling over now. I have read and seen videos and I’m learning to behave in an non reactive way, at the same time I’m on shock and feel henis totally under my skin and it makes me doubt myself at every turn. At times I feel I will not survive this, at the same time I have two beautiful children 19 and 12 years old…. I have no idea how to defend them from their father’s toxic and highly manipulative behaviour. He wants our son to live with him half of the time, and I’m terrified of the idea of having to subject him to this. As I have been a perfect supply for him over the years the children seen his true self only on occasions, but I fear that our son will become a supply if living with him. Should I fight for my son in the courts?

    1. Gemma, I think judges let kids decide where they want to live by the time they are thirteen. I would try to involve the courts as little as possible, if I were you.

      Feel so bad for your situation. Without giving out too much identifying information, what was the straw that broke the camel’s back for you? Had you thought he was just a simple jerk for many years and woke up one day and realized there was a deeper disorder there?

  23. Well you would be surprised how many people get into toxic sympathy with such an individual, including me once. The worst can happen, if this type+ someone who needs to prove the world he deserves love.

  24. It is so relieving to know I am not alone. I am in a long term marriage with a VN. And I have nobody to talk to. I need to get out but have not… There is aways a New reason to hope. VNs are not always men.

  25. Dying Man

    I think the VN stands for vampire narcissists. I hope you stay posting, we have several men who regularly post and would be more than willing to speak with you. I am sure it would be beneficial for you to talk with them. I welcome you to keep posting and hope we can be of some help to you. Many of us have been posting on this site for a long time and understand many of the things you are experiencing.

    Just know you are’t alone in this and continue to post. It may be difficult at first but will give you validation. I also encourage you to read Dr. Simon’s books, especially In Sheeps Clothing. Continue to read the blog and the archives. Blessings

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