Vulgar Narcissists Offend While Charmers May Not

Vulgar Narcissists

Vulgar narcissists are a different breed for sure. All narcissists share certain core characteristics. But some can be a lot more “charming” than others. Charmers know just what to say and what to do to look good and curry favor. Their manipulation skill makes them more dangerous in a way. They want you to like them. That make it easier for them to take advantage. (See also: Charming Narcissists Manipulate Well.)

On the other hand, vulgar narcissists simply don’t care. They’re all about themselves and out for themselves. Nothing else matters and no one else matters. So, they say things and do things without compunction.  Concern for others or the impact on others doesn’t hold them back. They speak first and maybe think about it later. And they act first, and possibly (but certainly not always) regret it later. But just don’t have enough human regard to mind what they say or do in the moment. These narcissists upset us more easily. Their boorishness and easy brutality naturally offend.

What Matters to Narcissists

Narcissists mostly want to revel in feelings of superiority. The more “neurotic,” compensatory, or “vulnerable” types inwardly feel inferior are always trying to prove something. But the more character disturbed or “grandiose” types believe they have nothing to prove. In fact, they’re completely convinced of their greatness. It may seem they want you to see their greatness and adulate them. But they actually want more than that. What matters most to them is your deference. Kneel, and you will be in good graces. Refuse, or call out any fault, and you can expect an attack.

Confronting Vulgar Narcissism

Like it or not, we sometimes have to deal with vulgar narcissists. And because they don’t care, we might wonder what good it does to confront them. The answer here lies in the good that can come from outing the truth.  Moreover, there are many different ways to confront ugly realities. If we go into it thinking our confrontation will necessarily change the other person, we’re bound to be disappointed. But if we confront purely for truth’s sake, good will necessarily follow. We speak truth for our own benefit and that of others. Denying, running from, or hiding the truth always injures. But speaking and dealing in the truth always paves a constructive path.

Over the past 18 months, I’ve been afforded many platforms to speak to the truth of the vulgar narcissism currently on such outrageous display. And, because of my commitment to certain ethics and to civility, I have taken great care with my words. But in such care I have, perhaps, forsaken just a bit of my obligation to squarely confront and speak the truth. That will change, however, as my weekly broadcast Character Matters takes a new direction.  I hope you’ll tune in. And I welcome all to the conversation we so desperately need to have.

Again, my sincerest thanks for endorsing and recommending my books. And look soon for announcements on new workshops and the release of a new book.

129 thoughts on “Vulgar Narcissists Offend While Charmers May Not

  1. To Be Polite

    by Harry Kottler

    To be polite is not hard.

    To be polite is required.

    To be polite won’t get you tired.

    To be polite won’t get you ill.

    All you need is a little patience.

    In awareness, just be stationed.

    You are not the only person.

    Let others speak their piece.

    Don’t only dwell on your own thoughts.

    In inattention, don’t get caught.

    Do not get quite overwrought

    By what the other says.

    No one really is the other.

    All are sisters or are brothers.

    Elders are your fathers or your mothers.

    Do not hide your heart from them.

    Greet each person with a smile.

    Smiling is a lovely style.

    You will find, after a while,

    Most people will smile at you.

    Know inside each soul’s the Lord.

    With folks words, do not get bored.

    Although it might seem quite a chore,

    Treat each person with love and respect.

    Love and respect will come to you.

    If these teachings you pursue.

    Being polite is the thing to do

    Every single day.

    1. Some men see outside themselves, and they regard the whole as something worth sacrificing for. They think and feel on a transcendent level. To take on a seemingly insurmountable problem of any magnitude requires great courage, faith and tenacity. Being a visionary is no simple thing, it requires dedication to a life’s work that can cost their family, their health or even their lives. The alchemy they perform in the face of resistance and even danger is sanctioned by a Divine that knows no bounds. Truth and love are worth fighting for. They’re worth speaking up about. It is a small thing compared to the sacrifice that’s gone before us. We owe that generous sacrifice respect and our full attention.

      “Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness.”
      Martin Luther King Jr.

      I know a long time ago you wrestled with that choice Dr. Simon. Your tireless work over so many years, on so many platforms, is a testament to the power of the choice you made.
      This generous extension of your life’s work is worth respecting.
      I call you teacher.

    2. “my” vulgar narcissist. caused so much damage during the years. First, when i met him,he was the charming, act, talked etc, the “right way, he figured out, what my need etcv, so had his mask on. I never heard of this personality,so i could not know,how to deal with it. Since I am a caring, empath, suffered a lot, blamed myself for everything, prayed for changing myself for better, if that is the problem, finally i kicked him out and divorced him, BUT i still didn’t know..He begged himself back did again what was expected from him as a normal person,(I thought) Finally he did again all the manipulations, deceptions, superiority, name calling, verbal abuse etc. I suffered so very much.Finally i researched, and heard other victim’s testimony, then studied again. Finally i got into the stage, i learned, tried “grey rock” method, not working.. Nothing working :(. Reasoning, communication, enforcing respect for me and my boundaries–not working.Meanwhile, my already bad sickness and not having family around but far in other states, my disability /so bad finances, age, etc, stopped all my afford to get help to get rid of him plus 3 surgeries in the past 3 years. I still try to find social support etc, but in my town,nothing.(youngstown,oh check it out) At least it can not hurt me anymore and i never giving up to find solution. Point just 2 days ego, he gone too far. i said, stop to yell, name calling etc (say it for years) result, in his room for
      2 hours talked to himself, bashed me, and said, nobody treated him that bad as i do(??) And god sent him to save me from myself and i would kill myself sooner or later without his help (??lol. that is crazy.) Point is, he constantly smoking marihuana too and a lot in my house property, what i never wanted, he do not even give money for his own food for a year, but try to boss me around, etc etc, like a leech.What can i doo? He is charming etc with outsiders, know my vulnerability(finances and serious, and health ) How can i prove to doctors etc what really going on? He hate my intelligence, like a child, on the computer ,playing games or watching videos for literally daily 16- 17 hours, etc.I raised my children (3 girls alone as a widow) 9 do not need another child!

  2. Everyone needs to grow bit of thick skin. 🙂

    It appears now a days more and more people refrain from taking a position, that may invite some sort of attack by offending someone full of ego, or that may look like attack on some touchy-feely person.
    And, as always it is important to speak truth/opinion in civil manner. These are subjective matter, so as long as one doesn’t cross a line too often and avoid crossing the line by large margin, it should be good enough.

    1. Andy D

      The problem I have had is the fact that some CD’s most CD’S are Grudge collectors. They are masochistic in their thinking. They brood on things.

      This is why I try to understand what they are doing and not feel sorry for them.

      1. joey,

        Right. Watch and understand the actual behaviour and avoid getting into fuzzy domain.

        Things get bit complex, once someone allows other to get into their head… few years back if someone had told me that I was grudge collector and brooding on things for far too long. I probably would have thought hard about it, maybe accepting it to some extent. Later I realized that I was not collecting grudges, but I was actually avoiding over the top reaction. I fell for rage tactic.
        Sticking to principles simplifies a lot. Just think in terms of right and wrong, stick to right position, and don’t care about other’s response. If someone’s feathers are ruffled, so be it. If someone is enraged beyond measures, so be it.
        Of course, one must be flexible and willing to learn, and not stick to his/her perception of truth to last breath.

        1. Andy,
          “Just think in terms of right and wrong, stick to right position, and don’t care about other’s response. If someone’s feathers are ruffled, so be it. If someone is enraged beyond measures, so be it.”
          That is good advice.

          1. It’s the only way to go actually. After experiencing what I have most of my complaints are now how I let myself down by not defending my position due to

            a. ignorance at the time and
            b. false beliefs I was holding about myself at the time.

            This has all changed now. I will stand in my truth and not place any expectations on any particular outcome with anybody. Bad behavior is bad behavior period. I address it and then step back and allow it to evolve into what ever direction it takes and I will either cut my loses or the situation will resolve itself for the better.

            If somebody’s behavior is unacceptable then it’s unacceptable period. I will make no more concessions on myself by being someone I am not to please another or to placate a frozen adult child.

            They can step up or step off. Either way it’s a win/win.

            This is where we get ourselves into a lot of trouble. By placing an expectation on an outcome we shortchange ourselves. I’ve learned this lesson but it took me a long time and a great deal of pain to “get it”

          2. Lucy,
            If you say anything knowing it is meant to hurt or belittle someone and you don’t care about their reaction, that is unkind.

            You and I have experience with this. It can leave you haunted until you realize the truth.

            They’re aware, they just don’t care.

        2. Andy D

          I messed up BIG TIME. After the dust had settle I saw what I HAD DONE. It cost me a fortune and I died.
          The only thing I could do was get out. I had to have my angel put to sleep.
          My Spaniel B. She was beating on her. That creature the mother was SO COVERT in her tactics and I figured out this covert style was a life long process.
          I still have a lot to learn and you are SSSSSOOOO right about not sticking to perceptions

          1. Joey,

            I am sorry to hear what happened to your beloved pet. It must had been so traumatic to loose your best friend, they love us so unconditionally. I hope when you get your house you can get another dog. I got this little rescue, he is a German Spitz, I guess quite common in Europe. Anyhow, he is such a great companion and I just adore him.


          2. Joey
            I just want to say I’m sorry you had endure living with that woman. I don’t even have words. A big internet hug goes from me to you.

          3. Joey,

            The carnage left in the wake of narcissistic abuse is overwhelming desolation. The point with CD is they have to attempt to destroy anything and everything we love.

            My ex BF tried to break up my animal family and she nearly succeeded – I got two of my animals back and we are now reunited and all is well. I am sorry that was not the case with you.

            It’s a long slog and a lot of wasted years we spend just sucking it up tolerating the abuse while trying to figure them out. Why do we stick it out. Because we are decent, compassionate caring individuals – it’s why they target us. We are the cream of the crop – in your case Joey you had no choice. Until you finally accepted what she was and walked away. Better late than never my friend.

            As I recall your mother was Borderline – they are in my opinion worse than narcissists. They generally are comorbid with NPD anyway. Double trouble. I think it was Otto Kernberge who first coined the term “Borderline” meaning borderline between neurosis and psychosis. Hysterical emotionally and physically violent f**&*ing lunatics!

            The term Altruistic Narc is a term being thrown around quite a bit these days. I’d never actually heard of one until I signed onto QFH as it was MTE herself who was involved with one. I’m actually starting to really see what they are attempting to profess to be. My daughter tallies in quite strongly there. She is I would have to say and have no doubt that she would be diagnosed as Narc/A’Social – NSpath.

            But she comes across as altruistic to the extreme. The problem with the altruistic types though is they are actually very transparent. They never ring in as authentic. There is always something clearly obviously plastic with them.

            It was interesting at Mum’s service. I had no less than 5 people comment to me that my daughter came across as being disingenuous and it was very noticible. What they particularly noticed and so did I was that despite her flowery words of concern for Mum was she appeared to be more interested in the food being of exceptional quality more than anybody’s actual grief.

            You had to actually see it to believe it. One person commented it was like she was putting on a spread for Barbara’s House and Garden rather than a post service wake. The lights were on but there was literally nobody home in the emotional department.

            That was the last time I saw or have spoken to my daughter it was NC from that point forward. She lacked any type of emotion both the night Mum passed away and the entire funeral. I did not see her shed one tear. It’s as if she was actually glad. I will never forget that.

            Nope – give me a vulgar narc any day – you can’t mistake them for what they are. As for the altruistic narc – they are the ultimate wolves in sheep’s clothing. However, in saying that high level empaths are clearly able to detect the absence of authenticity. They all come across as plastic.

          4. HI guys – sorry my previous post was to all of you the A Team! :- not only Joey. It should have read Joey et all…………….

  3. The X is grandiose, vulgar narc. Yes it’s an ugly breed and extremely difficult to deal with. And Dr. Simon’s article is referring to Donald Trump, the narc on display. I watch Trump and realize how far on the spectrum he is. Completely no filter. Anyway I will back off the politics.
    I don’t know how I’d handle another vulgar, grandiose narc. Knowing personally how to like to destroy whatever is in their way, I’d rather walk away from one than encounter, if possible. A narc of this breed will go to extremes and they seem to never stop.

  4. The charming type is no better if you ask me, they can get away with a lot more when they appear so likeable. People are more drawn to them and more willing to believe them when they are not offensive. Of course neither one is preferable!

    1. Kat
      I’m actuall glad the X is the vulgar type because it’s just out there in your face to see. No hiding the ugly with playing nice.

      1. It’s the beauty of overts Lucy they can’t keep their ugly mouths shut. Not that there is anything beautiful about them. The beauty of them is they are so easy to spot because they have no self control whatsoever.

        They have incredibly short fuses, anything that even slightly upsets them can cause them to literally trip a wire – they can go “Full Chucky” in 0 – 60.

  5. Vulgar narcissists are easy to spot and I would prefer to come across a vulgar narc any day. They always have an axe to grind about somebody or something and they don’t let it go.

    I have recently done a book review by an author who is not only a psychologist but was involved in a very long term relationship with a CD. He’s modeled his nasty characters on mainly vulgar narcs. It’s a stella performance of bad characters and the way he has woven them and their pathologies and behaviors into the story is amazing.

    They are all vulgar in the way they character assassinate others. In reality they simply project their own shadow onto others. If we really think about it – this is a boon for us because what it is showing us is what they really think about themselves. Their projections are actually confessions.

        1. Eudoxia,

          I would ask you to remember where you are.

          The truth is that this is Dr. Simon’s blog. Keeping it current, inspired, updated, edited and moderated take up a good amount of his time. He is a highly educated man of conviction with decades of expertise. His family (including children and grandchildren), friends, colleagues and patients follow this platform. Take their feelings into account.

          This is his life’s work in the form of a gift to us. At the very least we owe him a comment’s section that values and respects this gift.

          You post at length about fighting narcissism. If you are truly dedicated to studying and fighting CD and narcissism, his work has had an impact on your life.

          There is no room here for anything short of a comments section that Dr. Simon can be proud of.
          At the very least, you owe him a sincere apology.

          Then you need to back it up by considering his and everyone else’s feelings and changing your behavior. This would reflect true contrition.

          We are already here, how we treat each other matters. That’s his message. The man has had a terrible year health wise, but his dedication has been steadfast. He deserves better than what this comment’s section has become. It has to change.

          1. Your offense is your responsibility Aishit and I totally accept your dodgy perception of me. After all you are perfectly entitled to your reality. I have no control over how you see me and I have no right to.

            I really could care less what your opinion is of me quite frankly, plus it’s none of my business. But I will say this, you are (from an educational perspective) an excellent specimen.

            I really appreciate that – do you mind if I reprint it for my book?

          2. Aishiteru,
            I come here daily for my dose of “reason”. It gets me thru each day and has for over 2 years. Everyone expresses their own feelings in their own way. That is a good thing. No ones way is either right or wrong. But of course it’s going to be different from the way each of us express the exact same feelings – because we are different people.
            But regardless of how it is expressed – I understand the kinship. I feel the support and understanding. That is the beauty of Dr. Simon’s site and his words. I don’t comment often – but I’m constantly here. I’m quiet. I guess I’m lurking and sucking in the positive energy without commenting much. I feel there are many of us that are the quiet vampires – sucking our daily “dose” to try and once again believe in the goodness of the world after a world of hurt. To believe in us again.
            Why don’t I care how people express their feelings? Because it is coming from a place/hurt we all recognize. A place that is so incredibly unrecognizable to the way we think – exactly what words are we supposed to use?!?
            I certainly don’t know, but I “get” it. I get what everyone is saying. It’s stricks a real chord in me.
            This site is a place where we can “be heard”. Finally. A place to “not be shamed any more”. So please stop – or leave. None of us needs any more shaming. We’ve had more than a lifetime of it already.
            This is a place where our voice matters – for once.
            For this reason, I think you need to stop judging.
            If you are a survivor of a CD, haven’t you had enough shaming and guilt tripping already?
            Be kind.
            Understand the differences in how people express their hurt.

  6. No, stick to your own content, keep your process pure. Writing a book is a true labor of love. A terrific form of expression. I hope having your own platform is something you find rewarding and healthy. I wish you every success.

    1. Eudoxia,
      Quickly- noticed you did not drop any more c bombs or refer to the genitalia of any species in your post. A sincere apology for your behavior here would require a level of consideration, courage and integrity that is probably beyond your scope. I understand.
      Progress is good. Baby steps.

      1. Aishiteru,

        Best is to grow very very thick skin on anonymous online forums.
        And, if you do take offense to something then object directly, e.g. ABC, please refrain from using XYZ as it does not look civil enough for this forum.

        1. I suggest your efforts are better focused on taking your own inventory Andy. I respect Dr. Simon’s work.

          I’m very comfortable with his assessment of the comment section.

          1. Aishiteru,

            You are very comfortable with Dr. Simon’s assessment of the comment section?

            This feels like a blanket indictment of the comments and those who comment. Surely you have something to back this up? I’d like clarity on this please.

      2. Definition of PROJECTION (Psychology Dictionary)

        A psychoanalytical theory, projection is the process whereby one subject believes they see attributes (both good and bad) in another. The theory views this tendency as a defense mechanism whereby unenviable or unpleasant traits, impulses or ideas are attributed to another. In this way, the projector is able to avoid the unpleasantness in themselves. However, the theory goes on to explain that in severe cases of projection, the condition of projection may degenerate into paranoid delusions to the point that the projector believes others are responsible for the projector’s problems.

        Projection is a core feature in the gaslighter’s riposte.

        By attempting to derail me via trying to drag me into one of your distortions as a defense to your own shortcomings and lack of apology to JC which you were asked for some time back – go for broke, knock yourself out.

        Try all you might, but you won’t rock my boat. I’ll just laugh.

        1. Jean – sorry I could not lodge this in the right spot as there was no reply button to your previous post to Aishit. Please allow me to share this with you.

          “A boggart is an amortal shape-shifting non-being that takes on the form of the experiencer’s worst fear. Because of their shape-shifting ability, no one knows what a boggart looks like when it is alone, as it instantly changes into one’s worst fears when one first sees it.

          When facing a boggart, it is best to have someone else along, to try to confuse it, since facing more than one person at once would make it indecisive as to what form it must take, usually a mixed-up amalgam of the victims’ fears”.

          This is a Boggart and we have experienced those, it’s just right now there is one loose on this site.

          You are a precious soul please try not to stir up a Boggart – so it can hone in on you dear one. Allow it to fade into the distance and be no more.

          Much Love to Jean

          Eudoxia xx

      3. Eudox or LisaO or anyone else who desires to drop the C bomb and refer to genitalia is fine with me. I’ve got a strong sense of humor, a Sailor’s mouth and not much offends me. No apology needed.

        1. Lucy

          Thanks for your input here. What I wrote was taken RIGHT out of context. It wasn’t the C bomb she was referring to it was my acronym in the letter I wrote to Tudor. I referred to narcs as a specific acronym to be interpreted as follows :-


          It was actually satire directed to HD Tudor and I re-posted it here. What she did was twist it around in order to slander and malign that was very clear. Then she went straight after Lisa with a similar styled attack. But much weirder, it was a contrived and confabulated non sense otherwise known as word salad so she got to answer her ow question lol.

          Neither of the two swipes she took at both Lisa and I were dissimilar in any way from the one she pulled on JC. Who I sincerely hope pops in soon because I am getting quite concerned about her.

          The jury is back in as far as I am concerned with a firm verdict on that one for me. She clearly identified herself and has been throughout the duration of her posts here as being a very malignant presence to say the least.

          And as Lisa said in her reply to it “that shyte won’t fly here” and it wont.

          I am so glad the house closure went ahead and you are on top of things for a change Lucy. That was good news indeed! Big huggzzz to you honey – you’re out the other side!!!!

    2. Jean and JC

      JC, where ever you are, know that we are all thinking of you, wanting only the best. If you have time, please stop in and let us know how you are. You are much loved and you are always welcome Kindred Spirit.

      Jean, so happy to hear from you and sincerely thank you for your support and input. Since you started posting we have always worried how you are when we don’t hear from you.

      I know how difficult all this is, to wrap ones head around such lunacy at this stage in our lives. So many times as you say it comes from a place that is indescribable. How does one put it into words? How does one describe, mental, physical, heartfelt, gut retching pain, all combined, thrown at us at once, a pain so cutting, throbbing that burrows into our very soul.

      How do we bare it, live with it, deal with it and express it. Do we keep it all inside? Inside to eat us alive? How do we explain this to others who do not know what we feel. Only another who has felt the grips of this shattering pain knows what we feel.

      But how do we begin to even TRUST to tell another and hope they will understand. It is a baby step, then another and another. Many of us have been lucky and found this safe haven to reach out and hope another will understand. The first step to speak is another challenge on top of the pain but nonetheless a start. It is your start to trust, to put into words, your words, not my words but your words alone describing your pain and suffering. This is the first step in healing.

      Jean, your voice matters and so does JC’s. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for having the courage and commitment to speak up for all of us. You said everything with such eloquence, grace and dignity. Please chime in more often. We need you too…..

      Blessings Kindred Spirit


      1. Jean and JC

        I absolutely second what BTOV has said.

        Yes our voice matters and we will not be told how to think, feel or act less allow ourselves to be judged by others who have no idea of what it’s like to be on the receiving end of this type of abuse.

        Anybody who uses “guilt tripping” in any capacity should be immediately suspect. Because there is only one motivation behind it and it is not benign.

        NC and grey rock is the best way to go. Normal loving, compassionate people do not judge others but they do not have to tolerate judgement from others either. They are happy to accept others for who they are (providing they are not emotionally abusive), and we owe it to our fellow survivors to support them in every way we can without condemnation. We owe ourselves self respect by no longer tolerating other’s hostility, judgement or condemnation. Give them no energy except that which is required to disconnect them from our lives. We have the power to decide who we give or not our energy to.

        “Let those who do wrong continue to do wrong; let those who are vile continue to be vile; let those who do right continue to do right; and let those who are holy continue to be holy”. Revelation 22:11

        I will no longer stand for abuse it in any way, shape or form and nobody should ever, under any circumstances.

        Big huggzzzzzz you both :-

  7. Andy,
    Agreed. If someone has a problem with another poster, be direct but gentle. Don’t wrap it up in a way that implies group censure and flowery appeals to an imagined status quo.

    1. AndyD/LisaO


      Emotionally mature people realise any offense taken is their problem. Some people love to make others feel beholden to their reality by attempting to guilt trip them. I don’t comply with delusional fantasies of others.

      “Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.” — Paramhansa Yogananda

      Or in other words and simply put “begrudgery”

      1. Eudox, LisaO, AndyD and all,

        I think many CDNSP are able to wear both the mask of vulgar and charming interchangeably depending on the circumstances and the CDNSP agenda.

        Yes, most definitely, mature people know how to discern the content of a comment . It all boils down again to “Knowing Thyself” and more importantly, to aspire to be the best we can be in our authentic state.

        We are all unique individual persons with wants, hopes and desires for a life without conflict and to be at peace. Given the nature of the CDNSP it is almost impossible to lead any vestige of normal life once they have entered our space.

        Now <the crazy making begins, where there was harmony there is discord, an atmosphere of tension builds, drama vs consistency, fear vs calm and all other types of problematic scenarios.
        Instead of spreading happiness, hope, goodwill, joy, encouragement and to raise another up the environment slowly morphs into a ball of confusion, just like the unintelligible, gobbledygook that spews from the CDNSP mouth. This all happens when a CDNSP enters our lives.

        Its always about what the CDNSP's agenda is, how the CDN thinks, what the CDN sees and wants reality to be, subtlety and many times brutally forcing their agenda and perverted thought processes onto their prey.

        Almost, all of us here have survived the CDNSP, many of us by a hair of losing our sanity. I myself will never allow this again. It is good to know your enemy for if you don't they will surely finish you with immense pleasure to satisfy their sick egos.

        Over the years I have versed myself in the study of CDNSP and am astute to picking up the smallest tell before they bore deeper into my personal space. I know how the CDNSP connive, cajole, manipulate and use societal niceties to lull one into their webs and cause descension.

        The vulgar CDNSP is as simple as allowing one rotten apple to spoil the bushel, as you can see the rottenness on the outside. The charming CDNSP is the shiny, delicious apple portraying an acceptable outward appearance but is rotten to the core.

        I truly will be glad when I don't have to deal with these blade runners anymore. Be it the vulgar or the charming, truly one and the same, as their goal is destruction of humanity.

        1. BTOV et all

          Where have we heard the idea before that, if someone denies doing wrong, that means they didn’t do it right!? When we are dealing with CD rather than just denying their behavior they must dehumanize others – it gives them that added level of defense plus a good hit of narc supply – why else?

          If word salad fails, generally their first port of call then they pick a particular target and go for the attempted kill. They gaslight, project, deflect and scapegoat others while sliming them with the very attributes they loath about themselves.

          That type of behavior is consistent with and comes right out of the play book of criminals, dictators, rapists, serial killers and yes, even narcissistic politicians.

          They are very easy to recognise these days. The problem with them is they are deeply pathological. They have no real “free will choice” their neural pathways are pretty well burned in so they don’t have an option in how they react because they rarely respond (in fact I think the latter is impossible).

          The less intelligent they are the more “knee jerk” they are. When it comes to the strategies of CD vulgar or altuistic whatever, they use the same strategies. Every time without exception. The are one rolling and looping Groundhog Day.

          I don’t know about you BTOV but they are becoming really quite boring.

        2. BTOV this is well worth stating twice.

          “Now <the crazy making begins, where there was harmony there is discord, an atmosphere of tension builds, drama vs consistency, fear vs calm and all other types of problematic scenarios.
          Instead of spreading happiness, hope, goodwill, joy, encouragement and to raise another up the environment slowly morphs into a ball of confusion, just like the unintelligible, gobbledygook that spews from the CDNSP mouth. This all happens when a CDNSP enters our lives".

          Well put – it most certainly does.

        3. Btov, for sure! Many of the replicants are able to change their modus operandi depending on what is required. Lucky for Lucy her X seemed to be totally overt– a loud mouth schnook, so at least people believed her!

    2. Lisa O,
      There’s nothing gentle about throwing C bombs and dog testicles around here, but at least it is out in the open. What’s the C stand for again? For all to see. Unfortunately. You’re fine with that.

      I’m not.

      I will not speak the way you want me to.

      I will not apologize to JC for your manipulations. The text is here in black and white.

      Keep your open arms and criticism. There is no team A. We’re all here. In the good doctor’s house.

      How we treat other people defines our character. Your open arms are a prelude to a stab in the back. No one can even make you soup while you’re sick without getting judged and punished. Where was the gentle communication in that scenario? You might want to apologize to that poor thing. I’d like to give her a hug and let her know she’s not crazy. She just needs friends that appreciate her and her depression will lift. The way you treated her was disgusting.

      This blog is about character. Yours is in question. Reference the top of the page.

      1. Aishit

        It is very clear to see who the manipulator here is and who is not.

        Your attacks on forum members are not appreciated or appropriate.

        Lisa’s character is most certainly not in question however yours is and has been for some time???

        Your last paragraph is a jumble of incoherent statements in other words – word salad.

        Seeing your are accusing all and sundry thus far of your own demonstrated behavior and as you claim to be an unsolicited mouthpiece for Dr Simon and self appointed moderator on Dr Simon’s site. I think the good doctor is in a position to determine just who is character disturbed in this instance.

        I have absolutely nothing further to say to you whatsoever. Other than you don’t exist.

      2. Aishiteru,

        Some poor little thing made soup for me when I was sick and I judged her and punished her? That is pretty random. The way I treated who was disgusting? And who made soup for me?

        You will not apologize to JC for my manipulations? Huh? Seriously, not being coy. I don’t know what you mean. Where did I manipulate JC?

        As far as language, or anything else you object to, I suggest you GENTLY tell the other poster their language makes you uncomfortable. You needn’t write an essay designed to embarrass them half to death.

        As far as salty language goes, it doesn’t bother me enough to take issue with it, if it isn’t aimed at me or anyone else here. And Eudoxia doesn’t use colourful insulting language to attack other forum members…like ever. Her language is descriptive, like it or not.

        1. LOL pretty random – that’s one way of putting the whole post was pretty random. It was however a most excellent example of word salad – that even beats Richard Grannon’s version – seriously. He’s pretty good.

          In all honestly I think she had difficulty processing acronyms.

          I think I’ll have to go down the pub for a beer, it’s been quite a day. I might be able to peeve some narcs by wearing my bright orange flouro lipstick why stop now :-

          Cheers Mate!

          1. Eudoxia, you should apologize to that poor woman who baked you a cake. You drop kicked the cake, grabbed your pistol, then yelled “dance Fool dance,” as you pumped bullets into the floor by her feet! Nice. I hope you have icing on your shoes!

            ……LOL — This is how a certain message struck me yesterday. Blind sided!! Random!

          2. Lisa I can’t reply to your below post but LOLOL uh huh. Random is one word for it but I can think of another and it starts with P…………….

            Exactly as BTOV describes in her post particularly the quote by Robert Moon at the start. The rest nails it too.

            If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s a Boggart! Always wear orange lipstick around Boggarts and make sure you have your wand handy so you can blow them up then turn them into something completely ridiculous! -wicked grin-

            Honestly Lisa watch Harry Potter The Prisoner of Azkaban – I guarantee you will love it!


      3. This is a well known tactic. Robert Moon: “Accuse your opponent of what only you are doing, as you are doing it, to create confusion, cloud the issue, and inoculate others against any evidence of your guilt.” This form or interrelating if you want to even call it that comes naturally to the CD.

        Blaming others is also a classic feature of the CD. After spending a lifetime of blaming and dodging responsibility for ones own faulty behavior and projecting it onto others the CD may not truly feel they are responsible for their own behavior even to the point of committing a crime, it is always someone else.

        The CD continually rethinks, rewords, reinvents always excusing their behaviors to the point they will not/refuse to see that they are the common denominator in all their difficulties.

        The CD refuses to factor in the harmful affects they have on innocent people by their dysfunctional and harmful way of relating. The CD has little if any use to utilize introspection, to understand or to learn their negative thinking and insights that destroy the very relationships they desire to have.

        As time goes on a normal person realizes it is wasted effort and time to try to explain how a healthy relationship works to the CD.

        The CD is is severely impaired in relating to others. These impaired ways of relating eventually become their only way of dealing with others.
        The CD ingrained thinking, only knows how to relate to others with intimidation, threat, anger, manipulation, and dishonesty. These defective styles continue even when those around them try to tell them what is wrong.

        Also, the thought processes of the CD on how they interact with others are very calculated, purposeful, and manipulative toward others. The CD’s decision making, coping strategies, and manipulations are often well thought out ahead of time and planned to meet their agenda.

        It is this combination of long-standing calculated behavior that makes a CDN dangerous in any interpersonal relationship.

        However, the situation develops, whatever is said, no matter how much you point out and provide evidence of the toxic CD behavior the CD will twist and turn the truth into it being everyone and anythings fault except them.

        The CD always blames their intended scapegoat for their assaults, lies, bad behavior, deceptions, intimidation’s, etc. People don’t cause themselves to be verbally abused, lied to and scapegoated. The reality is they are involved with an abusive and assaulting individual.

        All I know is, NC is the way to go. One is already and nonentity to the CD, so for ones sake of mind and soul have as little to do with these kind. Or if in a position to go NC go Grey Rock.

        In the end the CD’s true colors always bleed through……………………..

          1. AndyD,

            Thank you, for the compliment. I am still working on the simplistic way you say things in a short concise manner.

          2. Agreed. Thanks for the words of wisdom, Btov! I think that cd’s personalities are non-elastic and the lack of flexibility is caused by an ego that is on too tight. The charmer manages to disguise the fact OR they believe the image they project is exactly who they are.

            The overt vulgar type must believe they are pretty wonderful. Like the Cheeto hued Fuhrer POTUS, the very stable genius! LOL

        1. BOTV

          Are you talking about my X again? Perfectly stated, perfect description. And all these reasons compiled together is why a healthy relationship with one of these individuals will never be had. They won’t and I believe cannot change, and don’t want to. To try to make a marriage or relationship work out with one of these characters would be a death sentence, death of a life that could have been well lived.

  8. Please just to say. I have ALWAYS BEEN OF THE OPINION that filthy word discribe filthy people.

    I prefere to use a euphemism. Such as Coconut. If you remove 3 letters i.e One letter “C”and 2 of the letters “o”. You will be left with an anagram.

    Like that couple in the U.S.A who had their children chained to a bed.

    They are just a couple of Coconuts

    regards Joey

    1. Joey,

      I get it, a hard headed coconut, like nuts, with cuckoo nut water sloshing around inside their heads. Sounds like one of my sisters. Truly, this is sad, a waste of human life. The true tragedy lies in all the lives that are destroyed and affected by the selfish CD.

      As Dr. Simon continually reinforces, its not that they don’t know what they are doing , its because they don’t care.

      “They Know What They Are Doing”

      1. BTOV

        They know exactly and precisely what they are doing. The problem is they can’t stop because they are fully pathological. One of the most constant strategies they use is gaslighting. This is the best way for them to confuse their target. By constantly twisting reality and facts then smearing their target with their twisted version. This can only succeed with neuropaths, unawakened empaths and/or people who have had no previous experience with narcissistic abuse.

        As for seasoned travelers on this journey – they are easy to spot. Because they have a set repertoire with no other available options. Due to their brain’s lack of neuroplasticity and subsequent atrophication they can’t be or act in other way. It becomes a case of “monkey see monkey do” ad infinitum.

        What’s worse due to their psychotic “God Self” relationship they have with themselves (lol) they really think they are so superior to others, that others can’t see them and therefore they can continue to do what they do regardless.

        If one tac fails they skip to the next one which is just as well known to the seasoned traveler as the first. They don’t appear to have an “off switch”
        They play like a broken record out of the same play book every time.

        When you really think about it what a boring existence.

        1. Eudox,

          You said a mouthful here and so true. There was a time when I was clueless, I mean clueless. I would make up any and every excuse for the CD, also, thinking I could myself do any and all things to make up for the unprincipled behavior by the CD. I even blamed myself and owned what was theirs.

          Self blame and second guessing oneself comes directly from the gas-lighting strategies and lies the CD uses. The CD that aren’t so obvious are the ones that use 99% of the truth and use the 1% to confuse and destroy ones sense of true reality. The CD are always twisting and turning truth, slowly, subtlety, scheming till one doesn’t know light from darkness or sadly to say, even to know who they ever are anymore.

          In reality we become the fall guy for all their internal blemishes, anger, frustrations, you name it, it is always someone else’s fault. The CD never own their own stuff, they transfer it to someone one else and snatch your body along with your gifts and claim them for their own. That is the truly how they justify ownership of you.

          To wake up and see the truth, to own the truth of who the CD really is is truly mind blowing. Once we make peace with it, accept it and go on it continually becomes clear who the CD are.

          From my personal experiences, I disagree that the CD are truly psychotic although they appear to be. I do agree the CD are their own God, the mask is God. The CD do believe their own lies, however, there is always a reality that hits them in the face and that is; they know they are lying.

          As the CD ages and move further along the continuum, many CD sink into depression and become delusional schizoidal hermits. For others I am sure they are diagnosed with dementia or Alzheimer or in days of old, the CD were the raving mad maniacs locked up in insane asylums with only their version of reality playing over and over in their heads.

          As an Empath, I can only say, God have mercy on them, as I do still love them. It truly is sad for me to watch others self destruct or be destroyed. Since being enlightened I cannot tolerate being quiet and watching a CD coil around an innocent sucking their life force from them spinning lies and I say nothing. You see, if I know this is happening and say nothing I am a party to feeding the vampire CD. This goes for all CD, even the ones in my own family.

          Blessings to all and always protect the unknowing, one at a time.

  9. Joey,

    I do believe this epitmony of fine dining on others (much like Hannibal Lechter) was referring to an acronym I created in my letter to HD Tudor when he was asking for people to send in a “Dear Narcissist” letter of which I just could not refuse. I was referring to another definition of NSpath – as Tudor so loves acronyms he deserved one in his honor.

    Callous, Unempathic, Necrophilic, Treacherous, Sadists (it’s not a hard one and expressed with full stops in between) it has no connection to gentitalier whatsoever and the definition was clearly made known and set out in the letter to Tudor which I re-posted here.

    A certain person’s connotation of the word does not alter the acronym’s meaning in any way and is therefore a frivolous and vexatious claim – nothing more than an attempted smear campaign and an attempt to deflect from her own abusive comment to JC some time back. Aisht made several derogatory comments to JC one of which was accusing her of being a drug addict among other things. It was an outright assault on JC’s character and now she’s attempting to do a beeline on me – this of course was not a wise choice.

    It is obvious there are 3 strategies at play here – deflection, scapegoating and gaslighting – clap, clap- they always pull the same stunts.

    Coconuts? hmmmmmmm you’ll have to give me some time on that one Joey.

    As for the couple who chained their children to a bed well I dare say my acronym would be totally suitable for them don’t you?

    I do believe I created several acronyms in that letter which narc victims all appreciated and one of them was N.S.U. Narcissist Starvation Unit and N.R.P. Narcissist Repellent Device which many of us here are fast becoming.

  10. This is interesting. Aish, you did offer JC something akin to an apology a few days back –but it fell kind of short.

    At the same time you doubled down on the idea that she reconcile with her parents or she may live to regret it.

    Had you been following her posts carefully you might advance that opinion. But you probably haven’t so didn’t pick up on her constant refrain that she feels so much better and at peace after going No Contact.

    The mother child relationship is not automatically sacred.
    As Joey describes, look at the couple recently arrested for chaining their kids to their beds all day. No Contact is a bare minimum requirement for those
    kids — obviously.
    As far as parental love goes emotional
    chains can be almost as bad.

  11. Anyway…back to our previously scheduled program! The vulgar narcissist is very different than the charming type, in the way they present, as Dr.Simon describes. The CD who targeted me was a self effacing charming ‘shy’ guy who led me on for ages. I had no warning. What a chameleon.

    1. Lisa

      I think it comes down to intelligence. The highly intelligent ones appear to be less prone to vulgarity. Some were raised in influential but maladaptive families and know how to behave or rather put a public face on.

      The vulgar narcs tend more to come from lower socioeconomic situations where both education and manners were not an option. These are the types who were dragged up as opposed to brought up and it really does show.

      There are some people who are raised in poverty but by caring compassionate people and are a totally different kettle of fish – it really does come down to character.

    2. LisaO,

      That is why I said I think many CDNSP can play both masks. They put on whatever mask will work for them at the time. I think it depends on who the CD is eyeing up to deceive. I know I deal with ones like this. The CD pulls the wool over the unsuspecting person eyes only to be used and abused before they realize what hit them.

      1. BTOV

        In all honesty BTOV I don’t they all can. I think the really vulgar narcissists can’t be pleasant because they never learned or were imprinted by their parents to be pleasant. They might be able to take a shot at it but inevitably they will crumble as they can’t maintain a status they don’t have in their make up.

        On the other hand an altruistic narc can become vulgar if they to into heated “narc injury” then watch the vulgarity come out and step aside. However, this will not be a publically worn face. It will be reserved for their nearest and dearest behind closed doors.

        Notwithstanding they are all being seen for what they are. If you look at it in another way which I am we are in the Biblical Apocalypse. I know we all have our different interpretations of this but I see it as “The Revealing” which is what apocalypse means – to reveal.

        CD and their ilk have preyed on this Earth for a many thousands of years. They have had a fine time destroying many good and decent souls. I believe their time is at hand though and the tables have been turned not being turned HAVE BEEN turned.

        “You intended to harm me, but God intended it to be good, for what is now being done. The saving of many lives”……..Genesis 50:20

        In order for this humanity to learn what love is, we first had to learn what love is NOT.

        Blessing to you sister!

  12. Lisa – off topic again. Do you remember when we were discussing healthy narcissism? I am starting to have issues with the terminology “healthy narcissism”. I decided it was an oxymoron because simply there is no such thing. It should more aptly be expressed as “healthy assertiveness”. I decided to google it and came up with this – it’s pure gold!

    4. Using the oxymoron term of “healthy narcissism.”

    It is incorrect, and misleading to refer to core human strivings as “healthy narcissism.” It’s an oxymoron, a figure of speech in which two contradictory terms are put together. It’s well meaning at best to use this terminology, and several well intended authors and researchers do so.

    The NPI itself may be responsible for some or most of this confusion. By using vague language, such as “normal expressions of narcissism,” and labeling itself as a “Narcissistic Personality Inventory,” the NPI has wittingly or unwittingly done a disservice.

    Witting or unwitting, the effects of this terminology are not helpful, in that it:

    1. Enables narcissists to hide and orchestrate confusion and blame-shifting the label.
    2. Dilutes the seriousness narcissism, and its impact on family members.
    3. Makes narcissism appear “normal” — rather than the serious pathology it is.
    4. Allows narcissists to define abuse as love in the form of eroticized and romanticzed dominance, thus to snare prey by “love bombing” them.

    To clear the fog, it’s important to see this term as an oxymoron. It’s like saying heaven is hell, or war is peace. Let’s keep the terms healthy and narcissism separate.

    Healthy persons are not narcissists; they may have problems, mental health issues, but they are human because they want seek to feel human!

    Narcissists and psychopaths are unhealthy because they hate and pretend they are above feeling “human”!

    End Quote.

    I’d go so far as to say narcissists and psychopaths are misanthropic to the core of their being. In order to deflect from their own self hatred they project themselves out into to the world hence finding fault with everybody and everything in the word. While they live delusionally in their “God like” state.

    1. Eudox,

      I agree with your post and have myself rejected what is termed healthy narcissism. Rather, I describe myself as having healthy self esteem. I think this better describes ones healthy attributes of having personal pride and standards rather than describing one in the same terminology reserved for the CD. Using this terminology can also create a negative effect and appearance for someone who is healthy to include being construed out of context.

      1. Lisa/BTOV

        Ditto’s with the healthy self esteem. Someone who has healthy self esteem is able to stand up for what they want without being abusive in the process. They are able to defend themselves without injuring others.

        They are able to get their needs met without disparaging others. Sometimes it’s necessary under certain instances with particularly abusive people. By calling abuse for what it is is not disparaging it’s calling abuse for what it is – ABUSE. And I have no difficulty doing that these days.

        I will no longer sacrifice pieces of myself in order to “tone down” for an emotionally abusive frozen adult child who is attempting to have their needs met by emotional blackmail, guilt trips and/or other maladaptive means by emotionally traumitizing others.

        That no longer flies in my world and it will be met with total truth and nothing but the truth because nothing can withstand truth.

        A jumbo shrimp? Yea like a nice headache – ever had one of those? LOL

  13. Yes Eudoxia. Healthy narcissist should be in the same category as jumbo shrimp, jobless recovery etc…
    Perhaps it means people who are a bit more egocentric than the norm but lacking most of the malignant features of narcissism. I dunno!

    1. LisaO,
      You have me stitches. Good point. One has to remember, shrimp tastes good but nevertheless is a bottom feeder. Many times these topics go straight to that painful place and a reprieve is welcomed. I sure needed that belly laugh, it felt good. Thank you

      Its been so cold, then warm, then snowy, now rain coming, then snow. I hope you are doing well with all this up and down weather. I know, you realize as I do, our health is everything. Happiness and many blessings.

      Warm Hugs Kindred Spirit

      1. Much love to you, Btov and Eudoxia!
        I hope your weather is calming down, down unduh

        And yes, Btov
        Climate change, weather weirding, is really hitting home now.
        Mother Nature has turned into “Mommy Dearest”. And yes, it is so hard on the body, as you know!

        1. LOL @ weather wierding – PRICELESS! It sure is.

          We get hit with a tornado on xmas day. Now that was very Mommy Dearest plus I was flood in with two narcs! That worked well though because I pulled a boundary and stopped on dead in her tracks – she was attempting a gaslighting number and I wasn’t going to have a bar of it.

          The past couple of days which is the middle of summer btw I’ve had my winter dressing gown on both mornings which have been cold.

          Today I’ve got a pot of Irish Stew in the oven for lunch because it’s still cold! And the suns out and it’s the middle of the day!

          We’ll likely have a heat wave on the week-end what’s the bet?

          Weather wierding you’re on a roll today Lisa! Love it!



  14. Eudoxia, Btov,

    Do you think that some domineering and manipulative types really do wonder what went wrong with their kids?
    Is it possible they might be unaware that even the subtlest mind game has an energetic signature that wears people down….particularly their kids.
    Back handed compliments, appeals to social status, saying one thing with a sly smile while meaning the opposite? It has to be brutal to have a parent like that. My parents were difficult in their own way but never any mind games.

    1. Lisa/BTOV

      Nope I think they are in flat denial over it and/or they are pathologically unconscious.

      You are absolutely right in respect to energetic signatures. These are the the very avenues that allow narcs to hook into us. This is the NLP work I am doing in NARP – going in and finding my energetic signatures that turn into subconscious false beliefs of who we think are i.e.

      If our parents were emotionally unavailable to us it will leave us with an energetic signature of unworthiness or unloveability. This is a psychological wound but it turns into a subconscious script that goes like “I will never be good enough and nobody will ever love me”

      Then along comes the Universal cavalry akka Law of Attraction to dish us up just that – people who are incapable of loving us and making us feel unworthy. It’s how the CD know precisely what will hurt us the most so they mirror back to us, but at a deeply unconscious level, what we think about ourselves.

      This is why I signed up for NARP so I can bleeding well hoover myself! And I am doing just that :-

      I’m making dam sure I have no more scripts running that narcs can hook into and it’s working!

      Huggzzzz to you both

      1. CD know precisely what will hurt us the most, so they mirror back to us, at a deeply unconscious level (OURS not theirs they do it intentionally) what we think about ourselves – our false belief de jure

        Evolution gotta love it or NOT………………………..

      2. Thank you Eudoxia,

        It’s unfortunate that most people are kind of unaware of what motivates them and how their words and actions affect others.

        I am focussing as much as I can these days on my own triggers, motivators, fears and my ego and its influence in my life and the lives of others.

        Because my interactions with others have been limited by being pretty much housebound for decades, I feel my personality has been rearranged and forced to fit the confines of my existence.

        And like a bonsai tree, there is patience, struggle and some ‘refinement’ there, for lack of better words. But there is also a cramping and stunting going on that I need to understand and try to work on.

        So much of life is based on lived experience, moving the body through space and how we react to novelty in the real world. I have to find a way to work around the lack of movement, novelty and spontaneity.

        Before I die I have to find a way to turn this lack into something of value rather than a force that is working through my uncomscious in damaging ways.

        1. LisaO,

          This saddens me to here your circumstances. Also, as we age we slow down too, along with the energy drained from us due to our illnesses.

          Please know you have contributed immensely over the years to this blog. You have devoted so many hours to helping others and always your deep intellectual thought provoking answers have made a difference in my life. I think I can speak for others who are long gone and who would tell you the same.

          I think all of us here are a work in progress, I believe someday you will be amazed to realize the beautiful individual you are. Be of good cheer, your day is coming.

          Many blessing and encouragement on your quest.
          Warm, Gentle Hugs, Kindred Spirit

          1. Oh Btov,

            Thanks so much. I feel the very same about you. You have overcome, triumphed in a way that most people could not. You AND your faith are an inspiration.

          2. Oh Btov,

            Thanks so much. I feel the very same about you. You have overcome, triumphed in a way that most people could not. You AND your faith are an inspiration.

            A big hug right back at you!!

  15. Aishiteru,

    Ahhh…I think I know what you’re talking about. The other day I posted about a ‘friend’ I just recently met. Let me give you a rundown of one of the many phone calls she made, after being told several times I was having a relapse of lupus, plus flu and a cold and sleeping round the clock, with a request that I NOT be disturbed.

    ‘Friend’. …”Oh hi, is Lisa there?”
    Boyfriend….”No, she will call you back as soon as she can. She is still very sick.”
    ‘Friend’……..– hangs up on him.

    No soup, no offers of any help whatsoever — which was just fine. She just wanted to talk and would not take ‘no,’ for an answer and was rude to my boyfriend.

    Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I hope that is so and you aren’t intentionally trying to gain leverage by impugning my character. If it’s a manipulation, it’s not going to fly here. This is a blog about manipulative techniques. Good luck.

    1. Lisa – in a nutshell much like to “so called C Bomb”


      A favoured tactic of manipulators and narcissists used in order to obstruct, obscure and distort their targets perception of reality. Intentionally setting up misdeeds and then accusing them their targets with insanity when they react to those misdeeds. Rewriting history or blatantly denying the event ever took place. First provoking negative emotions which produce reactions then dismissing the victims legitimate concerns with labels like “crazy” “insane” “bi-polar” “too sensitive” or “schizophrenic” etc. Gaslighters are patronizing, unapologetic and above all cowards. Because they can not manipulate healthy individuals, they must manufacture events such as insanity or chaos. This gives them power and control they seek over loving, compassionate human beings.

      From PsycheCentral

      1. I know changing my behavior does not change the behavior of the CD or their thought processes of how the world and others relate. Although, at times it can be a temporary fix, meaning, I am now meeting the demands of the CD and giving up part of myself.

        Then when the Cd feels comfortable and justified, they return to their CD dysfunctional behavior with no concern for changes in their behavior towards another.

        Mentally healthy people do not act this way and accept responsibility for their actions. Allowing the CD to slip out of taking responsibility by blaming another actually increases the bad behavior of the CD.

        When involved in any manner with a CD — we must not only recognize their behaviors but also develop a strategy to protect ourselves. from them. Many of our strategies must focus on protecting our emotional and physical health, our relationships with others etc.. It’s important to remember that with a CD, their survival and well-being is their only priority — not the health or well-being of those around them. They could care less about others.

        In a short period of time the CD takes over and our lives are then altered with filling the needs and demands of the CD. The real kicker is we give over our power, our life and our thought process is redefined to placate and mimic the CD. Never will I allow this to happen again.

  16. Eudoxia or any others that may know – what technique would this be using: I have identified a CD that used to attend my church. When her husband was removed from a leadership position because of some unacceptable behaviors, I think she was shamed which wasn’t the intent of the church, but he had to forfeit his leadership role. Anyways, shortly after at business meetings she would comment that our church basically didn’t deserve to exist because we are too small and don’t fund enough ministries and don’t have outreach programs. She couldn’t make any headway with that so she left the church and instead is trying to convince various members to leave the church by attacking the character of the pastor and his wife. I probably should know this but any help would be appreciated. These seem to be some of her favorite tricks.

    1. Kat,

      If the other members have Christ like attributes, they will know the truth. Of course you can share your truth and what is the right thing to do. This is also a process called: separating the wheat from the chaff.

      I hope this was of help.

      1. Thanks BTOV, I think she made the Pastor feel guilty somehow because she got up in front of the congregation one Sunday and screamed at him, he thought he had done something wrong but in hindsight it was all part of the character assassination all along, she was also working on their daughter to turn her against her parents, she had the opportunity because her daughter and their daughter were friends. I think she only succeeded in making herself look bad.

        1. Kat,

          Religion aside. If it were me and I had a gripe or didn’t understand what the pastor said or did, I would make an appointment to meet with him and discuss. So many things can be solved in this manner. Instead witnessing this type of conduct only reinforces a problem lies with the one who makes a spectacle of themselves.

          1. Kat

            CD don’t behave like normal people. Everything they do is counter productive. That is because they are seriously twisted, illogical maladaptive, malicious freaks.

            Many mistakes are made by people involved with them thinking they will be able to bring them around and make them see reason??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

            NO – NEVER – EVER! EVER!

            I can say with 100 percent accuracy that everybody I have talked to and read about who has been involved with CD has never had any success in making them see reason , sense or have had them own up to their own behavior. This is a total exercise in futility and it is an activity we constantly have to engage in with them when have to fight to create decency. Is is this very act that actually depletes our life force. Everything we are forced to do which all comes down to having the create decency is life depleting and soul destroying.

            They are totally TOXIC. They are like cancer or ebola. Keep away from them. Let them destroy themselves because it is what they appear to be doing these days. Just sit back and watch the show.

        1. To true Joey. Only too often when one is in the grips of CD we alter our own natures to “keep the waters calm” we hide who we really are.

          This in an of itself should be a big red flag to all and sundry but it’s like they cast a spell on you. They use our compassion in order to play their nefarious games of cat and mouse.

          I’m seriously over them and have zero tolerance. I think the zero tolerance would have served all of us well had we implemented it a long time ago. Love is blind alright.

    2. Kat,

      Have you read any of the docs books either In Sheep’s Clothing or Character Disturbance. He nails all their strategies in there.

      It’s very difficult to say from a third hand position. There are many factors that go into the mix. They have a very broad range of strategies that are never in the best interest of others. They blame and scapegoat others as a way to deflect from their behavior.

      BTOV’s post above is excellent. It could be a case that she is actually co-dependent or an inverted narc and is acting as a flying monkey of her husband. If he got removed for unacceptable behavior well……………….

      To be totally honest Kat – they are not your time hon. Don’t waste any of your precious energy on these soul sucker. It is best to step right back and give them a wide berth. If at any point you have to communicate with her then go Grey Rock. It is a tecnique where you show no emotions whatsoever – so you literally become as boring as a grey rock hence the name.

      Kat if you witness abusive behavior. Just accept it for what it is and keep well clear of abusers. They are nothing but oxygen thieves. Protect yourself and have little to do with her. CD or otherwise – an abuser is an abuser period.

      1. I have read the Sheeps clothing book, but not all of the Character Disturbance book. I am an over-analyzer, I analyze everything to death trying to understand. I create a lot of stress for myself many times because of it. You are right, when you identify it just let it be. Who can understand someone who wants to do those things, it would only be guessing and you can’t help or change them. I pray for her and that’s all I can do. Thanks for your input, it helps a lot.

    3. Kat, that is a divide and conquer by forging alliances strategy. The parishioner prefers to maintain power and influence through this method than face her husband’s problems head on. She may have a disorder but people without disorders do these types of things too, if they have suffered a loss of status and feel mortally embarrassed.

      Most people are almost hysterically sensitive to how they are perceived. The idea of ‘self image’ seems to me to be more like the internalizing of a consensus point of view of ourselves.

      We have our own idea of who we are and we mesh that with what (we imagine or feel ) others think of us. Anyway, for most people any kind of public rebuke or censure of themselves or a proxy (husband for example) strikes right to the bone. It can bring up very strong feelings of abandonment. As we are social animals this can feel like an existential threat. Being shunned in a primitive society is equal to a death sentence.

      When people are injured in this way, they can lash out. When a cd is injured in a way that demands quiet contemplation and the ability to reconfigure their idea of who they are, they become very vengeful and vindictive. They are triggered on all levels, but particularly at the level of the ego, which is paramount to them.

      1. Lisa

        I totally agree with your post. Do you know what? I no longer really care how I am perceived by others now. It took me many years to understand this, it is not only not important but a pointless exercise in futility. Why? Because we have absolutely no control over how others see us CD or otherwise.

        It’s the elephant in the room everybody has a piece of it but the lights are out and everybody thinks the part they have is the whole. A human being is so complex it’s extraordinary. No two people are actually alike, they may have many similarities but who knows what is buried in their deep subconscious.

        A good many people have deeply rooted abandonment than what even they are aware of – it’s not a hard one to lodge in and we don’t have to be physically abandoned either. It’s how we record life in our early years.

        The only thing I am prepared to do now is speak my truth and stay in integrity. I am never going to bend over backwards to try and make somebody else see me. It’s just a waste of energy. I think I’ve said this before I don’t care what opinions others have about me particularly if they are negative.

        Healthy people make an effort on their own steam by clarifying confusion they are able to work things out particularly misunderstandings. Unhealthy types will not because they must be right under all circumstances and if I am engaging one of these “have to be right types” I won’t bother with them, I’ll leave them to their own devices.

        I’m happy to be wrong if I am and as opposed to arguing to be right I will explain what my position is without the need to tear down others and enter into a none abusive open dialogue and fully listen to the other person’s point of view and take it on board. More often than not two people are actually talking about the very same thing but seen in a different light and from a totally different perspective.

        Abusers are not able to do this under any circumstances.

        In Kat’s situation the lady whether CD or not is demonstrating dysfunctional behaviors, attempting to divide and triangulate others is a very unhealthy activity and it’s not something a neuropath or empath would engage in. With CD they don’t object to another’s behavior or point of view they dehumanize others. And I do believe this is the distinction CD or otherwise.

        There is a vast difference between psychologically and emotionally healthy people and those who are not. It’s why I prefer Fromm’s terminology of biophilic vs necrophilic. I make note of a person’s orientation and head toward the biophiles of which I am surrounded by in my life now. We won’t last too long with necros.

        If somebody is demonstrating abusive behavior, long gone are the days where I am motivated to understand why. I just allow them to be whoever they want to be and if I don’t like who they are just leave them alone. This doesn’t apply to people who have genuine psychological problems – providing they are not abusive, are aware they are having difficulty and are able to openly and honestly share their experiences I’ll be happy to lend an ear. But I won’t wast anymore of my time on abusive people.

        Life is way to short for that and at our age, we can’t allow others to steal our life force!

        1. LisaO,

          This saddens me to here your circumstances. Also, as we age we slow down too, along with the energy drained from us due to our illnesses.

          Please know you have contributed immensely over the years to this blog. You have devoted so many hours to helping others and always your deep intellectual thought provoking answers have made a difference in my life. I think I can speak for others who are long gone and who would tell you the same.

          I think all of us here are a work in progress, I believe someday you will be amazed to realize the beautiful individual you are. Be of good cheer, your day is coming.

          Many blessing and encouragement on your quest.
          Warm, Gentle Hugs, Kindred Spirit

          1. Thanks again, Btov

            I do hope to be a beautiful person one day. Right now, I think I am a bit closer but still have work to do. I don’t want to die never having known myself well enough to know what I have to change.

            I don’t plan to die anytime soon, so I have time! Big hug to you!

        2. Eudoxia,

          As a teen and in my early twenties, I felt like a disposable person, like human garbage. I know how these feelings can play out if they are not somehow understood and addressed.

          For me, some of the healing came in one day. In my mid twenties, long after I had moved away from home and after I was no longer battling with my father, I was able to see him in a clearer light.

          He acted in such an emotionally arrested way, while I was visiting he and my mother. I realized, that nobody could possibly have grown up around him and turned out anything other than severely f’d up. And the realization was matter of fact and very cut and dried.

          I was released from self blame and also gained total acceptance of the fact that it would ever change. I still don’t quite know what his problem was. Could have been mildly autistic or an “assburger”

          1. “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society” Krishnamurti

            Ain’t that a fact! The only people who are well adjusted to this profoundly sick world are necrophiles and it shows.

            “assburger” ROFLMO now that’s a bit naughty lol – but it’s good :-

            You know what they are actually quite nice people they are just very socially awkward and they say highly inappropriate things but I don’t think they are malicious in anyway. They are just very misunderstood and not well adjusted to this profoundly sick society.

            It’s just the nature of the beast Lisa – we all grow up with damage and incorrectly stored information about ourselves and the world. How can it be any other way when our poor little brains aren’t fully developed before Age 7.

            We all have so many dodgy programs running that making sense of anything while they still have us by the proverbial short and curlies is going to be an uphill battle. All we can do is the best we can do and that’s it. Sorting though it though helps! LOL

            It’s helped me heaps and you should see what I’m turning up and I wasn’t even abused! My father sounds much like yours not ex military though – that would add another edge. But he was very controlling and very dominating and very strict. I felt at times as if I was suffocating.

            I felt exactly the same when I bought that house with the twisted sister former best friend of mine. Which btw something else has come to light about her yesterday I’ll do a separate post on that though because I want your input on it. It nothing surprising put it that way………………………

      2. Yes, I’m sure it was very embarrassing for her and she felt out of control, excellent point. I know all the people there and the only thing they felt was compassion for her situation, not looking down their nose at either one but sad about the circumstances, and I know the others would pray for them too. Thanks for your response.

  17. Oh Eudoxia,

    You are progressing past where I am! I still care what people think, to a degree. But I definitely care less than I used to. It’s so delightful and intriguing reading your posts and how you are thinking, what you are experiencing, how you are incorporating what you are reading into your life. I sense you are not hurting nearly as much anymore. You have reached acceptance in crucial areas in your life. Bravo!

    Did you where your orange lipstick last night?

    1. LOL no I didn’t wear the orange lipstick there weren’t any Boggets there – this is my new term for those slimy creatures – Boggets. It’s from Harry Potter which I’m loving seriously get Series 3 The Prisoner of Azkaban you won’t regret it and you’ll be in stitches! I was last night when I came home and read your last post!

      I misread it and thought you said Republicans not replicants so I was thinking is Lisa talking about Trump (now I can’t find that exact post) but when I realised it was replicants and not Republicans I laughed so hard I almost choked as saliva went down the wrong way! LOL

      Don’t worry about him anyway Lisa – they are all replicants in that congress what’s one more gonna do? Seriously I have watched so dam many Senate Armed Services Committee Hearings like well in excess of say 50 or so hours over they years – they are generally over 3 hours long and I’ve watched these people in action – they are all fully fledged psyhopaths. I can honestly say they all demonstrate character disturbance, are all war mongers and are all out to conquer the entire planet.

      When somebody is testifying before them the word salad is stupendous! It is mind blowing!!!!!!!!! They are all replicants! They have no soul. I haven’t watched one for ages now because they were making me physically sick. You get slimed just by listening to them.

      Anyway I’ve created a new acronym. RPRs – Replicant Blade Runners because if you think about CD are a combination of both!

      1. Eudox,

        I used to call a CDNSP I knew Bladerunner and they loved. They saw the movie too. All I can think of is when Leon is unable to identify any relational past history. The blank stare in his eyes is identical to that of the MNSP when they are starring at you trying to pear into your soul. This stare leaves one off balance, confused and feeling naked.

        Now I realize what I was witnessing was the endless black hole in the CDNSP that leads to nowhere. Truly, being mesmerized by this look draws the unknowing into their snare. Beware!

        For anyone who hasn’t seen this movie, I would encourage you to do so.

        1. BTOV

          Wasn’t it Harrison Ford who was a Bladerunner as that was what they were called as hunters of the replicants? I’ve got the directors cut of Bladerunner atm I might watch it later.

          1. oops hit post and want’ finished.

            Yes Leon HF “tell me about your mother” Leon “my mother” blank stare BANG

          2. Eudox,

            Yes Harrison Ford was a Bladerunner. The person s endless blank stare, the eyes, reminded me of the replicant. I could never have said that though. So, I just referred to the CDNSP as Bladerunner when I would see that endless stare. I guess I was placating their ego.

      2. Yes, so much testimony involves weaselling, Eudoxia. I don’t get Cspan or any television for that matter, so haven’t followed military procurement. I do know from pie charts that a huge amount of money goes towards funding the military — something like 40 to 60%?

        If they do anything to alter those dynamics, the economy will collapse. Most people are unaware of the fact that the reserve status of the dollar is kept in place through intimidation and the ability to strike small countries with impunity. Anybody steps out of line and Kapow!

        And the Cheesie in Charge POTUS has described the military as weak and underfunded. LOL. What a pathocracy!

        Anyway, Eudoxia, I could go on and on but the blog is about the interpersonal. We can discuss through email exchanges if you would like. I will ask Dr. Simon to give you my email address, if you’d like?

        1. Lisa

          What do mean by POTUS -wicked grin- The only POTUS I actually approved of was assassinated in Dallas since then the I gave a new meaning to the word.


          All of them without fail since JFK who was the last decent POTUS when it still meant President of the United States. I gave up watching Question Time which hooks into Oz parliament. It’s like kindergarden kids on steroids throwing sand in each other’s faces and bashing each other over the head with plastic spades. It’s pathetic. We don’t have a POTUS of course we’ve got a PM – Principal Moron. A chimpanzee would do a better job of running the country although it would have to be a Bonobo.

          You won’t get CSpan on television, this is something they don’t wish to make public. But you can get it via the net.

          I gave up watching it when I was in full blown CPTSD – I had no interest in the world at that time. Even though I’ve recovered, the world is such a sick place I refuse to give anymore energy to it.

          I agree about speaking off topic on these type of subjects and yes by all means pass on your email address Lisa that would be great. You will find I’m not bias in any way – I loath all of them equally :- I was tapping into CSpan when they went after Syria then I met Prince Harming shortly after that. Haven’t been back since but I do keep a breast of it on the periphery though. My focus of attention ended up being on my own survival post that.

          I don’t want war in my reality. So I concentrate on other areas. I shift my attention to focus on abundance and prosperity for the whole planet not just a few Cuban cigar smoking psychopaths at the top of the pyramid.

          I vote for God and a cabinet of Angels

          Peace :-

  18. To all who follow my story,

    My second home has now sold and closed on it today. Signed and sealed. The tactics and trickery and threats that were ongoing through this process were just about unbearable to me, as whether or not this house sells timely greatly impacts my financial situation, which has worsened every month during the pendency of this 3+ year divorce proceedings.
    I actually was at the home with the beast yesterday, dividing furniture, etc. I was really amazed at my own behavior. While he was acting weird, won’t look at me but will talk while looking in another direction, I was just my ordinary self. I didn’t have hate spewing from me, nasty comments, bad looks, any of that. Maybe I was just so focused on getting the work done that needed to be done, I don’t know. I acted as if no bad blood between us. It didn’t even feel like an act. I’m trying to wrap my head around it. He torments me but then when I faced him I didn’t feel the rage. Maybe I’m healing? I have no idea. I so want this divorce to be completed. Maybe I was just running on Adrenaline. I had lots to get done.
    So now to the final stage of dividing the proceeds. It won’t go smoothly, as nothing does. I do have a court order but those have not yet been followed. I do have a pawn this time to hold over him to make it go smoothly, if he wants his way he has to play my way this time. For the first time ever . . . . . .
    I’m so close to being done with this hell, and hell it has been. I felt myself really just wanting to die. I saw no end and no way out of the mess. But I’m nearly there now. People say to me I held up so well. They didn’t see the dark days, the sleepless nights, the troubles in my head. I guess going to work every day helps, because it does occupy my time.
    I can hardly even explain the torment a CDN can cause to another, when they want vengeance.
    I told my attorney the other day I feel like I’ve been terrorized. She says because I have been.
    Soon I will have my life back. I can finally see it.

    1. Lucy, good news that things are getting accomplished and you have some power in the next step. Terrorized is how I felt with my ex, but you are fortunate in that you are aware of what is going on, I was totally in the dark, blaming myself as he blamed me. Sounds like growth to me that you were able to maintain your composure and be your true self, congrats for that! That’s a victory and you took back your power.

    2. Lucy,

      I am so happy for you. I think you were calm and collected because of your gifts of character. If one shows anger in situations like this, one will be sucked into the next step in the drama game the CDN want to hang onto at all costs. SB doesn’t know how to react to this Lucy. It knocks him off gaurd and gives you your power back. You are doing what you have to, focusing on what you need to do to go forward.

      Bravo, well done.

    3. Good for you Lucy. I hope this house is probably last big joint investment, excluding children who are also now old enough so not really big joint project.

      Once house is out of the way, getting rid of household items will be easier enough if you look at everything from the replacement cost perspective (how much it will cost to replace something). As always, expect bitter battle especially on those things where your ex-husband thinks that you think are valuable. Throw him on some rotten bones (items that are not valuable to you, but you claim they are) to chew on.

      1. Andy D
        Since this is the second house I’ve cleared due to divorce, there were more items I did not desire than I did. I got out what I truly loved and used. I’ve come a long way. All this stuff – I have an overabundance of it and it has become a burden. I’ve got two storage sheds full and that will be plenty to fill a home.
        I’ve lost the attachment to things, besides the things I use. Even if I like it, love it, but can’t use it, I can no let go. I think it helped having moved three times now in three years, downsizing, losing property, money, lifting and hauling things, I now “get” what it means to only keep what you love and use. Otherwise it’s burdensome, to me anyway.
        What I want now is PEACE, that’s what I want, peace in whatever home I end up with. And now moving is not such a big deal anymore. It’s not the actual home that one is in that brings happiness and peace, but it’s what goes on inside that home.
        By losing so much I’ve gained some wisdom. Now seeking peace. I’m not quit finished with the divorce issues, but am very close.
        It’s time to heal from the inside out.

  19. Oh Lucy,

    Such wonderful news! I have thought of your situation often, wondering how I would cope if I had to deal with something like that. Had he been my husband I would have lost my mind and he would be 6 feet under and I would be in jail.

    The fact that you were able to work and maintain something like a normal life is astonishing — an incredible achievement.

    And your feeling of detachment and indifference to the beast is definitely a sign that you are healing.

    Andy’s advice to you is perfect.

    1. Lisa – we possibly could have been cell mates! Several times over spanning many lifetimes.

      “OMG I’m losing my mind! ” expressed Alice?

      Hatter: Just as well that thing will make you crazy :-.

    2. LisaO
      I did! I detached. Found out that even though I cannot stand the man, what he’s done to me, I have not lost the kindness inside me. I can’t be outwardly mean, unless I’m defending myself, then it breaks loose like hard to control. I see the man as a sick one, pathetic, disgusting. I can’t beat someone when they’re down, never could. Never will. But then there goes the mind games, sympathy comes into the one who treats me like crap. Hey, I’m only human. But it does feel much better to not be filled with rage and hate, although I can truly say I hate the man. But I’m not overcome by it.

      1. Oh Lucy,

        You are amazing! I haven’t gone through anything nearly as stressful. I think feelings of sympathy are appropriate even for someone who is despicable. That’s your humanity…intact. Not giving in to defensive rage–that’s your wisdom.

        You make me realize that I still have a ways to go.

        I have only suffered what I would call mental cruelty once and for a short period of time. Still, as limited as it was, it was intense and unwarranted. I had a strong desire to break the man’s legs.

        I have to be honest. Dealing with any kind of undeserved cruelty, be it pathological or not (and it usually is pathological) brought out the beast in me.

        I have never had a desire to hurt anybody before, but there is something about intentional sadistic cruelty that is so out of the ordinary, so different than other garden variety nastiness. The rage it inspired in me was something unique in my experience.

        My father angered me, and humiliated me, but it at least made sense to me. He wasn’t sadistic– just such a weird person.

        1. LisaO
          Believe me, I have been in a rage with him, barely holding myself back from pouncing him. It’s just that this last time he didn’t antagonize me and bait me.

          1. Lucy,
            Perhaps, because this was the last thread holding holding you together. Also, SB has not experienced this side of you, the calm, collected, methodical, professional you. CDN especially lawyers know, if you don’t know the answer don’t ask. I think he knows the answer, you will not respond.

            So happy for you.

        2. Lisa/Lucy

          I believe what we experience is a process known as SWIRL (this is a real one!)


          When I hit the rage stage I knew I had to do something. So I actually gave myself permission to feel it and let it out. I did this constructively and in the healthiest manner I could muster at the time. I made a voodoo doll not a real one and didin’t use any personal effects or hocus pocus it was just an object to transfer my rage onto so I could get rid of it. A bit like bashing a mattress with a baseball bat only I could discard this object and I did – I threw it off a bridge and allowed the water to take it away and symbolically cleanse it. Then I took a long hot Epsom salt bath. And you would not believe the relief – it worked!

          I went next door to my neighbours and said “if you hear any screaming or other such stuff be aware I am doing a Primal Scream workshop and anything you hear is a process of releasing pent up anger” Oddly they didn’t hear anything and I let rip! I got old mate to take the dogs for a walk so I couldn’t upset any of them because it would have freaked the dogs out – they would think they were in trouble and I didn’t want to traumatize them.

          I am pretty sure that onset of the rage stage is a massive build up of betrayal and injustice that it’s where some people who can’t deal with it commit suicide. It’s when they are about ready to give up because the pain and the building rage is so great they just need an escape from it. It’s why I had to take corrective action.

          I was like you too Lisa – I don’t like hurting anybody but I could happily of killed them all and then some. Which I why I had to let it out, I could not go on in that state I began to hate myself and that’s not on.

          What is more insidious about narc abuse is that it re-wounds us so instead of just having our own childhood wounds sitting there of which most of us are totally unaware of – it not only opens up old wounds but creates new ones and it’s those wounds festering that is the rage. That’s how I see it.

          It’s diabolical.

          1. Eudox
            I’m a believer in feeling and embracing whatever emotion is happening (without harming someone). I know the primal scream and have been there more than once. It has to come out. I like your ceremony. It had meaning. And it worked. And I don’t argue with results. That primal scream – it alarmed myself! The pain that came out was pure and simple agony. You know there is a level one can tolerate of constant pain and agony and abuse and then anything over that tips it to where you can easily lose your shit.
            It happened to me one day with the SB. He was videotaped me cleaning the house. This was after he ran off the help. He was freaky. Anyway I approached him and got my face one inch from his. I wanted to pop him. But thought oh crap now what. So since he was taping me ( for court purposes) I said “ Wow. Your eyes are bloodshot. What drugs are you on?” Hahahah!

    1. It’s narcs’ new black. Why not let themselves paint themselves black for change. It’s what they do to us. And I still don’t know what it is about the bright orange that sets them off. But it does.

      1. Eudox,

        These are toxic colors. They are iridescent green, harmful colors include fluorescent radium green, arsenic green, and uranium orange.

        Now you will understand why orange sets them off. Maybe next time you should tell the fella ” Come on over and I’ll give you a Big Kiss.”

        1. LOL – I did! When I realised how it was affecting him I puckered up and said “wanta kiss” he nearly disappeared into the wall!!!! It was way kewl :-

          1. Eudox,

            Luv it, I would had done the same thing. Once in a while I can can surprise myself and others what comes out. LOL for sure…….

    1. Lucy – can’t reply to your last post no reply button.

      Good I’m glad you let it out – it’s mind blowing what comes out huh? I shocked myself too don’t you worry. I though WOW that was savage – glad it’s out. But the relief was massive. I had my first good night’s sleep that night. I found this blog shortly after it. Thank God not before. I was not in a good way.

      I was not myself for a long time, and I understand about them goading Lucy, they do it deliberately to invite us out of integrity so we become black – if we take that bait then it’s far worse for us because we have allowed ourselves to step out of integrity but when they are spewing filth at you it is very difficult to stay composed.

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