Two Main Varieties of Narcissists

Narcissists come in two main varieties, each posing very different challenges for relationships. The two types also pose very different prospects for change. Telling the diffference between these egotistical characters can be difficult at times, so it’s important to know the signs that can help you distinguish the two (For more on the topic of narcissism see the current series of articles beginning with Personality and Character Disorders – The Narcissism Dimension, Narcissism Revisited in Light of New Research, and Malignant Narcissism).

When I was gathering clinical information for my first book In Sheep’s Clothing, I became painfully aware that there were two very different kinds of narcissists. I described one one as the more “neurotic” type and the other as a more purely character-disturbed type. Researchers have recently also concluded that narcissists are indeed of two main varieties but have given the types different labels:  “grandiose” vs. “vulnerable.”  But however you choose to label them, each kind of narcissist poses unique challenges for those having to deal with them.

We’ve all had experiences with each of type of narcissist. There are those folks who act like they’re great and those truly believe (or possibly even know) they’re superior. There are those who seem to both crave and thrive on attention and adulation, and those who demand homage.  There are those with a need to be loved and admired and those who are already so enamored of themselves that they truly don’t care what others think (in fact some narcissists think it merely a poor reflection on you if you don’t appreciate how great they know they are). Each narcissistic type is very different in overall character, which makes all the difference in how they’re likely to relate to you.

Two Main Varieties

Traditional theories (of neurosis) and perspectives conceptualized only one type of narcissist and advanced some interesting explanations for why such folks behave as they do. These theories viewed all narcissists essentially esteem damaged individuals who do their best appear perfect and therefore worthy of adulation but who underneath it all fear they’re both inept and unlovable. Their outward haughtiness was seen as an unconscious attempt to compensate for underlying feelings of insecurity and inadequacy. But experience taught me that while there were indeed some folks like these traditional perpectives described, there were many more who didn’t fit the model very well and some who didn’t fit the model at all. These were folks who truly thought of themselves as special, superior, and therefore, entitled, and lacked the “narcsissitic vulnerability” of their more “neurotic” counterparts (I discuss such types at length in Character Disturbance). And now research is bearing out this view quite solidly.

Whether you’re a man or a woman or whether you’re dealing with a male or female narcissist, it’s can be difficult to differentiate between the two types from just outward appearances and behaviors. Both types can project an air of self-confidence.  Both can appear to have a need to be praised, and valued. And both can act in ways that reflect an indiffernce to rights, needs, and feelings of others. But upon closer inspection there are some fairly reliable ways that can help you tell the difference.  When it comes to the “vulnerable” or more “neurotic” narcissist, the signs can sometimes be subtle, but they’re nontheless fairly reliable.

Vulnerable Narcissists

Here are some signs you’re dealing with a more “vulnerable” (neurotic) narcissist:

  • Emotional sensitivity.  These folks actually care what others think of them. Their egos are fairly fragile and they’re both anxious and hypersensitive about their social image. They can’t seem to help comparing themselves to others and come across as having “something to prove.” They can’t easily delight in someone else’s success because of how it might make them look by comparison. Vulnerable narcissists frequently “bait” others into affording them the attention, recognition, and praise they need to feel good about themselves.  They “fish” for compliments. This is a one of the more overt signs of their vulnerability.
  • A sense of shame.  Vulnerable narcissists hate looking bad and have obvious emotional reactions in situations that invite embarrassment. They’re hypersensitive to criticism and when disapproved of take steps to prove themselves worthy.  They take notice of others’ reaction to them, as it matters to them how they are perceived. Sometimes, they even “re-invent” themselves based on the feedback they get from those they have offended in some way.  They both need and want to be thought well of, so they do what they need to do to fashion an image of which they can be proud.
  • Empathy.  While this aspect of personality is sometimes difficult to observe directly it shows up in a number of ways. Because vulnerable narcissists want to be seen in a positive light, not only does it upset them when their image is tarnished, but when they’ve done something that truly injures or incurs the disfavor of others, while they might be “in denial” about it for a time, they feel bad about the damage they’ve done and are motivated to make things better. Of course, they often do this in a way quite unique to narcissists, putting more energy into tactics that help them re-fashion a more favorable self-image as opposed to working hard to make amends to those they’ve injured.
A Very Different Type

The more purely character-disturbed or “grandiose” narcissists have some very different features, which I’ll be discussing in the next article.  And while there’s some evidence that male narcissists more often tend to be of the grandiose vs. vulnerable variety, no matter whether they’re male or female and no matter how their narcissism is manifested, these narcissists pose bigger problems in relationships and much steeper challenges when it comes to prospects for change. So you’ll want to pay particular attention to the telltale signs you’re dealing with such a narcissist that I’ll be outlining in the upcoming post.

Sunday’s Character Matters program (7 pm EST, 4pm PST) will again be live so I can take your calls.

Wishing all of you a truly happy and prosperous New Year.  My resolution for the coming year: To do my best while I still have the health and faculties to do so at training professionals as possible across the country to better recognize and deal with character-related problems.  That effort begins in earnes Jan 20.


271 thoughts on “Two Main Varieties of Narcissists

    1. The short answer is yes, even though the current research suggests the two types I mentioned. That’s why I prefer the “neurotic” vs. “character-disturbed” distinction, and as you know, I assert there’s a continuum here, so it’s possible for a narcissist to have some “neurotic” features and some character-disordered features and the extent to which one is more dominant than the other varies. I’ll have more to say about this in the series wrap-up.

      Great question. Thanks for asking it.

      1. But if there is a co-existing, a “continuum” of opposite foundations, then i would expect there to be pendulum-like instability, something similar to maniac-depressive syndrome. Swinging back and forth but missing more stable middle points.

        Being 4 years late to the party, though. Perhaps this angle was already touched upon in kater posts.

    2. Mine was a vulnerable narcissist , and did seem to have some empathy at times- claimed that he cared how i felt, and would sit on the phone with me for hours listening to me cry and try to make sense of his behavior, and he would explain it, (but it still never made sense). So in some ways, i feel that he wanted me to feel better. and if he was capable of some empathy- then maybe i could have made it work? but twice he laughed at me when i was crying hysterically. Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with vulnerable narcissists?

      1. If his explanation didn’t make sense he was most probably manipulating you. And he laughed. That is not empathy.
        Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with him? If you don’t feel healthy emotionally then I would say no.

      2. I’m not sure which category my STBX falls into. He does things that are shameful and he hides and lies about the acts. When he lost his professional license and it hit the local newspaper he completely broke down and sobbed and was at what I thought a breaking point. He cares what others think of him yet he is sarcastic and ugly towards people. Seems like I could not have a conversation with him without him making it about him. So he tries to pull off a public image to cover the shameful acts.

        Emotional sensitivity – He does not fish for compliments and surely does not give them. When someone has a success he immediately wants to talk it down. He can turn a good thing into something bad.

        Empathy – he has done terrible things to my life and does not apologize, but yet covers up and further damages. So that tells me he lacks empathy. He does want to be seen in a favorable light but doesn’t live a favorable light kind of life.

        What a mess of a person. I stayed with him way too long.

        1. Mine doesn’t seem to care about others’ success. But he definitely tries to make himself look better. He has cracked jokes about how great of a guy he is, even once told me that my friend must be jealous of what a great guy I have. He also will sometimes amend his behavior after I tell him about it. But he never apologizes. He just doesn’t do it anymore. No discussion… I am glad that the behavior stops, but I sometimes think it is more about how he looks and keeping me here so I can take care of his kids more than it’s about how I feel.

          1. J.
            His behavior sounds familiar. Red flags, when one never apologies,
            please or thank you are absent from their vocabulary and especially when your gut feels the insincerity. If the thought occurs to you it is more about how he looks and keeping you here so you can take care of the kids, something is very wrong.

            If in the future things become intolerable or you may find out he has secured another relationship, the time to prepare is now. I highly encourage to read all you can on this topic and use what you need to protect yourself, forewarned is forearmed.

            Read through the archives and absorb what others have written in regards to the CD and strengthen yourself. Remember to always listen to your gut not your heart head. Many of us wished we had heeded this internal warning.

            Take care and continue to post and ask questions.

    3. Hi, I am hoping you can help me with a question that’s been nagging for years: what is the difference between a neurotic narcissist and Highly Sensitive Person type?

      Psychology Today has a great article on HSP:

      The reason I ask is because friends and family believe I’m a HSP, while a few psychologists have labeled me “narcissistic personality disorder traits.”

      I’m kind of over feeling bad about this, but I sincerely would like to know what the truth is, because if NPD and HSP are two different personalities, I need to know, in order to further my health and development.



      1. Hi Eric,

        Thanks for posting, a great link and I want to digest it for a day or two. I haven’t read any of these books and am going to purchase them. Be assured you are you are not the charactered disordered narcissist (CDN) we discuss here. The CDN would never have the humility to ask for help like you just did.

        In the meantime, could you expand a little more about yourself. I myself am a HSP and have never been labeled a CDN. You may have a very unique personality which some of these therapists don’t recognize. I have a friend that is a therapist and am going to discuss your post with him.

        Again, thank you for your post and hope you will share more about yourself. This is a great blog which has helped me to grow as a person.

        1. Hi, thanks for your thoughtful response. Studying and researching narcissism is a lifelong topic for me and these forums inspire me even more.

          Hmm, where to start. As a child I recall being temperamentally sensitive and changes or transitions were more difficult than average. I believe this is true because I recall a conversation with my mom about it when I was about 5 or 6. Upon reflection I was a child who easily “absorbed” the emotional or family dynamics around me, internalizing them, and later acting them out as a teenager (I was what family systems therapists might call “the identified patient”). My parents were definitely “good enough,” but we were a “parent centered” family and I felt much loneliness growing up, which I can’t say was emotional neglect/abandonment, but was painful and I could not express it to them, eventually adapting what Winnicott creatively described, as, ” a pleasure to be hidden, but a disaster not to be found.” I experienced some pretty intense bullying from my older brother and peers growing up. Early on a very excessive tendency to take too much emotional responsibility for conflict or things out of my control developed, marked by excessive shame. Eventually this culminated into defenses characterized by massive self-criticism for any form of expressiveness, all glued together by emotional perfectionism. The psychiatrist who labeled me with NPD traits saw me after a breakdown in college and a move back home. I believe he zeroed in on NPD traits due to my very excessive, and obsessive focus on self (the “obsessive” part of OCD has also always been a problem), grave difficulty regulating generalized anxiety, validating self and “tolerating distress,” (Linehan). I’m sure I presented as extremely self-absorbed, however not in a way that lacked conscientiousness or empathy. Also, I’ve never been one to relentlessly seek out others to surreptitiously get narcissistic supply. I’ve recently been reading about codependency, and some of the signs fit for me, especially rescuing/caretaking others in far worse shape in order to avoid authentically risky my true, and vulnerable, self. I don’t consciously seek this pattern, but it ends up being this way. My colleague says to me, “simple! Just pick someone you don’t fall in love with.” I had to give up alcohol awhile back, as I was well on the way to a serious problem. Currently I’m working in a community group for people recovering from NPD abuse and so far everything they have said resonates. Chronic emotional abandonment fits for me (CEN)–though it would be unfair to call my parents narcissists. And no need to try to drain the swamp anymore; they just didn’t understand my HSP traits (and to be fair were not that great at emotional intelligence) and I ended up not trusting my inner experience as a result. It’s too bad really, because a family therapy intervention would have really helped. It’s why I became a family therapist!

          Dr. Webb’s work on CEN offers a great perspective that fit really well for me. Her view both validates my experience without demonizing my parents, who don’t deserve that.

          Best, Eric

          1. Eric,
            Sorry about my jump on the reply. I hadn’t read the comments of your second post.
            I wish I could help, had some sound advice but it’s all way over my head.
            Sounds though as if you’re working on yourself. I don’t know that there is a perfect answer to anyone, but studying, reflecting, trying to live a fruitful and meaningful, clean life is what you are doing and I think you’ll be ok.
            Don’t forget to enjoy life and look at the beauty in it.

          2. Hi Eric,

            Thanks for responding, you said a mouthful. Like I said a lot to digest and am in the middle of something and want to get back to your response and ask for your understanding. I have read some of Winnecott and respect his work, who stands out to me is Alice Miller. Hope you keep posting, your input will help many and in the meantime have much to say in regards to your posts. Thanks for your understanding and hope others will chime in too, Andy?

          3. Eric,

            I am familiar with CEN too. I believe a good majority of parents were victims of CEN too, passing on what they learned from their parents. This becomes a generational curse which the Bible talks about.

            I think your post runs along what Dr. Simon is talking about in the current topic. If you don’t mind I would like to copy and paste it to the new topic and tie it in.

            Thank you for sharing some of your story, it sheds light on many things you are expressing and it is understandable why you feel the way you do.

        2. Hi, getting back. Not sure if this is the message with your question, but to answer, yes, of course you can share all you want! My hope is my suffering will help others, which makes it easier to bare, as this makes it meaningful.

          CEN, HSP, Codependency and healthy/unhealthy narcissism all overlap, though in my experience it’s a trap to overthink or over-analyze all the categories/labels. Looks like Freud was right. Because we are all constantly changing, it is impossible to “drain the swamp.” I’ve found balance to also be key for a healthy life and sometimes my mantra is “outer is better” (because I can be obsessive regarding self-reflection). So now that that caveat is out of the way…

          I am convinced inborn biological temperament factors is a precursor to many narcissistic adaptations that become a problem later on. Once I treated a family with twins (with many difficult challenges occurring; a severely NPD father, a divorce, history of emotional abuse and others). One twin was symptoms free and seemed to have invisible buffers or defenses allowing him to be almost completely externally focused on sports, friends, school, projects. He seemed to simply have a thick skin and family stress and anxiety did not seem to affect him. The other one was the opposite. Could not function due to severe anxiety, depression and obsessions. For this reason I believe it’s very important to identify sensitively temperamental children and make sure parents are educated and compensate as much as possible for this. And after all family interventions fail, then SSRI medication. It’s just too much of a risk factor for personality disorders. The only other lens I look at is attachment style, which can be compromised by postpartum depression, alcoholism, major stress and the like. This means my sensitive temperament theory may or may not be completely genetic or biological. Then again, does it really matter? Yo still have the fragile kid soaking everything in, sponge-like, internalizing it and getting sick. Two of my aunts have been permanently impaired by mental illness their whole lives, while the other two are the opposite. What gives? Maybe we’ll never know.

          And now we have the adults. In a better, more ideal world, sensitive people drawn to the arts would be far more rewarded and well treated. Sadly, they are all too often not. They are bullied in school and a career as an artist is very difficult in a highly individualized, Capitalistic culture. Thoreau might be a good example of a HSP who managed this. But without money, a literary agent and massive talent, today Thoreau’s way would not be very likely, if even possible. My belief is NPD traits and Codependency often results when highly sensitive children are paired with emotionally neglectful parents (another caveat here–parents who parent with CEN are not bad parents–they are often very unconditionally loving parents who do not know they have a sensitive child on their hands. It’s a perfect storm to be sure. However if the parents are narcissistically distrubed, the situation becomes much, much worse, and eventually the inconsistent and unpredictable intrusiveness/ignoring all adds up to a narcissistic personality structure until it is nearly impossible to tell the difference between the narcissist and who he was before the development of the compensatory self.

          Another interesting area is the fine line between covert NPD and codependency. Both of these types have gross distortions of self, and equally motivated by shame and an intense motive to regulate self-esteem through others. The NPD gains narcissistic supply by manipulating the other into worshiping him, while the worshiping one gains supply by caretaking/rescuing or otherwise feeling needed. My belief is people with codependency are much better off, as they are so often the victims of the dominant NPD, and hence go to therapy, CoDependents anonymous etc. Still, I could be wrong? Is the inverse process the same?

          So many questions!



          1. Eric,

            There are so many questions, the hows, whats, why, events, etc., we can lose ourselves in the question WHY? It does have to do with genetics and progresses in the womb. There are many contributing factors which form the being, the psyche of a person starts at conception with the genes of two. Then we have environment, personal beliefs and soforth to whom this person will be at birth. This period alone can cover a whole book.

            Once the child is born, we deal with how the child is nurtured, cared for, fed, and loved. Love of a person can be and is a personal and an individual style of being. We all love in a way we have learned and find comfortable. We forward on what we have learned. This is a deep subject and is individual to each person and their belief including their system of acceptance.

            Biological, learned, ingrained, personal belief systems, family of origin, etc., all play a part in who we are. Of ultimate importance is what we as an individual of “Character” decide to do with our lives. Again, all you have said ties in with the message Dr. Simon is teaching us on this blog.

            We can take back our lives, it is a choice, many times an extreme choice of letting go of that which is comfortable and to look deep within. In order to grow we need to be soul searchers, understand what has happened, forgive and then go on. Not at all easy, nonetheless, it will set one free.

            Eric, you are a deep thinker, so much of what you are expressing is me. You have me thinking again, searching deep inside. Through all what I have gone through I know I am able to help others, this is the key to the pain we have suffered. We can truly help others as we have experienced and know their pain.

            Welcome to the blog, you have so much to offer and your pain is mine, in all this we can grow to be more than we ever imagined.

            I still have much to add on your prior posts. I believe you are searching for answers and validation. Just know, many have found what they were searching for on Dr. Simons Blog. I hope you have read all of Dr. Simons work, I know it has been healing for me and made all the difference in my life.

            I am sure we can learn a lot from each other and grow. I believe if you give it time you will find many of the answers you are searching for on this blog. Also, you will find acceptance and camaraderie.

            Hugs and welcome

      2. Eric,
        While attending a session with the psychiatrist with my son, the doctor commented “I’m not so concerned about the diagnosis, I treat the symptoms.”
        Maybe that should be the focus, treating your behaviors rather than using energy on diagnoses.
        Your family are not medically trained. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I’d leave the diagnosis to the professionals.

  1. I was thinking the same, i bet there are cases where the two are mixed, adding to this the saying that Narcissists get worse as they get older, could it be at all possible that when young people they are of the neurotic type, then ‘grow’ into the solidly character disordered?

    Growing a few skins applies to most people as they age, can you imagine this ‘growth’ happening to the Narcissist in a truly awful fashion?

    1. Jackie,
      You must have some understanding of this. I think the proverbial red flags of the charactered disordered were always there but they morphed over time into the cancerous consuming sickness of the mind, heart, soul and spirit of the individuals to a point of I’m not sure, no return.

      It pains me deeply and I will never be the same having watched and watching the loved ones we have that have chosen to go down this path of destruction instead of looking inward and choosing to change their greedy entitlement, selfish corruptness (the 7 deadly sins) and grasp truth and light and throw blame out the door and forgive. It is so hard knowing the way but their refusal to take a helping hand. I pray vigilantly for their souls and redemption.

      Their is nothing they have done to me that can be worse then the internal landscape of their perverted minds and in the end the judgement they bring on themselves.

      Timothy, A good read: Abnormal Behavior And Personality by Theodore and Renee Millon


      1. Yes, BTOV and Jackie that’s what I’ve noticed; they get worse with age. Unless I’m not understanding the differences between the two correctly.

        It seems that as they get older they up their antics by learning new skills and they get nastier.

        As Jackie said: “they grow tougher skins.”

        And as BTOV says:
        “morphed over time into the cancerous consuming sickness of the mind, heart, soul and spirit of the individuals to a point of I’m not sure, no return.”

        1. Hello Suzi,

          I definitely think you are right about becoming craftier as they get older, they learn what works for them, and how do we know if some of them may deliberately perfect a ‘neurotic persona’ to get people to pity them so if they slip up, well, it’s because they are fragile….

          Some of these creatures truly sound almost like a different species, it must be terrifying when the mask slips and you see a blank stare, very often seen when there’s nothing more to be gained from the person they are currently leaching off.

          Narcissism survivor’s videos on youtube are really excellent, he talks about the quick flash of a smile when they have hurt you, and enjoy your pain, it does beg the question, ‘who ARE these people’?

          Take care,

          1. Jackie, one of the moments that led me to shed the scales from my eyes was precisely the moment where someone I barely knew went out of their way to be cruel, to the point I broke and cried in front of them, on the street, and the woman turned and walked away sideways. She had this satisfied smile on her face that I will never forget. I went, precisely, who ARE these people?

            Bit by bit I caught on.

            Another worthwhile book is Take the bully by the horns by Sam Horn. She describes her own awakening to what is really going on, and is pretty funny in places.

          2. Jackie,

            I just ordered Take the Bully by the Horns, which Vera recommended in her comment to you, after reading the preview on Amazon. When this author talks about tactics such as, if your resident bully criticizes you on favors you do for them, tell them that from now on they can do those things themselves, is good advice.

            Example, my wife makes a sandwich for her 14 year old son, and he complains, criticizes and refuses to eat it because it was not exactly to his liking. (Like the old comedy skit where the man orders a 6 minute egg and when it is served, says “I ordered a six minute egg, this is a six minute and five second egg!” Except nobody’s laughing here.) Then she asks him what else he wants instead, and he complains about anything she suggests.

            The author of Take the Bully by the Horns suggests responses such as, “Then you can make your own sandwiches from now on.” The point is to disabuse yourself (pun intended) from the notion you should be nice to people like this.

            I’m trying to get my wife on board to understand these things, but it’s an uphill battle because she’s in denial – and also, because they have an enmeshed relationship, which means there are elements of her being like the girlfriend with the abusive “bad boy” boyfriend, who complains about how he treats her, but runs back to him when he snaps his fingers.

            A very odd situation indeed.

          3. Know exactly what you mean. Have seen it & it gave me the chills to see that micro-emotion of sheer delight at witnessing the pain of another. Whether caused by the perpetrator or another, they for a split second light up in delight. It is in that split second that their humanity comes into question – are they a subspecies parading around most of the time masked & in full costume? Just plain eerie !!

      2. Hi there BTOV,

        Well i’ve done a lot of reading on this subject, but, to my knowledge i have never actually met a narcissist, i say to my knowledge as chances are i have many times.

        I really feel for those of you who have Family members with the disorder, it must be hell on earth!

        And here’s the thing, i hear Evil mentioned in discussions of Narcissism, too many times to be a coincidence, it’s very spooky.

        Maybe the structure of the brain simply doesn’t allow for maturity to happen, also, if they are Psychopaths rather than pure narcissists then they don’t have capacity for deep feelings, just shallow ones, so in essence, any shame or guilt will be only felt fleetingly.

        Take care,

      3. Scrolled this the fourth time. How come I missed this, BTOV?! Huh, better late than never.

        I guess getting manipulated and disillusioned became a part of my journey after all, since I’ve been seeing a lot of subtle signs last times about how to go on my own life journey. That includes genuinely helpful references, btw.

        Amazing I’ve made it this far despite some nasty people, who want to make you and me feel awful for no other reason than to be on top(if only in their own heads) as well as some narrow-minded fundamentalist(?) folks, who preach how they stand for rightness and how I(or whoever else not in their tribe) happens to be evil just for not twisting everything into same extreme, rigid, zealous beliefs – you know “I am right and by my set-up you can’t be but wrong”. Imagine trying to recover from any crisis, especially after being used and manipulated and then someone telling you that you are the evil, wrong, wretched, shameful, disgraceful, awful one, a bad person for not having it like they do. What a load! Just imagine!

        How’s that different from control-freakery and manipulation by other a*****es? How’s that different from social justice warrior/”victim defender” bullies Vera made such an apt post about a while ago, other than ideology and degree perhaps? How’s that different from someone, who tells you you must be a freak for having any spiritual experiences just because they are not purely rational and empiristic, other than being in reverse? The variety of control freaks, each seeking to negate the humanity of other people, who just want to live and let live, and then playing the victim or the righteous warrior themselves after someone calls them on their bulls**t is sickening! All this with such utter certainty…. Certainty and kooky beliefs are a horrid mix.

        I hope more and more people get around or start seeing these people for who they are and have it easier to pass their words by, avoid their spells. Waiting for more people to start getting more rational and compassionate, that would be a wonderful combo!

        Abnormal behaviors are too common. -siiiigh-

        But about the book itself, BTOV, what’s it exactly about? Haven’t managed to find a description.

        1. Timothy
          I really apologize for not getting back to you sooner, I know you asked several times. It is a Psychology textbook Copy write 1974 on Abnormal Behavior and Personality by Millon.
          Covering: Phenomenological, Biophysical, Sociocultural Approaches, Biological Influences, Early development and Social learning, Abnormalities of Moderate, Marked Severity, Learned Avoidant, Hysterical, Narcissistic, Aggressive etc……..Behaviors.

          It is considered outdated (Relatively cheap) a wealth of information.

          1. Timothy,

            Try a website called Thrift books, many of the copies are 3.59 and very reasonable if they have what you are looking for. Many on abuse, character disorders, narcissism and many of the familiar titles at a reasonable price. A good book is Stalking the Soul by Thomas Moore and Marie France Hirigoyen. Its the the Red colored copy.

            Happy hunting and hope you find several at a reasonable cost.

  2. Dr. Simon,
    I hope in the future you will write about the aging process of the CD.

    I find a combination of both can present. If I am wrong I hope Dr. Simon will interpret a little further in depth where the division lies.

    It is very difficult because I can pick aspects of each variety in one of them.. The sad part is there are times I see a small light or glimpse of perhaps, a true self. Its difficult when one of the CD’s I have dealt with does, not womanize, drink, gamble, smoke or have particular bad habits. There is an inner rage and anger that seems to be consuming them which I believe is a loss of their youth, fear of death, yes, the knowledge of all the wrongs they committed, but more than anything entitlement.

    And yes with age as the years pass by it seems there is a regression into more infantile behavior instead of growing in maturity.

    1. BTOV, I am seeing it with my father. Exactly.

      I am just recovering from putting his meds together. He basically wreaks havoc in what I helped him put together for the week, and hides some of the meds so I can’t find them and end up fussing, frustrated. Who ARE these people, indeed?

      1. Hi Vera,

        Your recollection about the lady you met on the street sounds shocking, try to remember though, that her disgraceful conduct that day says far more about her than it EVER will about you:)

        You mention your Father, my sympathies that you are going through this with him. Has he been checked out to see if this behaviour isn’t caused by something else, i’m guessing he’s quite old?

        There is nothing like first hand knowledge is there, people with family members, husbands/wives or friends with Narcissism could easily tell Clinicians a thing or two about these denizens of the void!

        1. Jackie, yes, he is old, but he’s been like that his whole life. Playing cruel mind games on people. Always looking for the power move.

          Lately, he’s been growing more confused, and it actually finally helped some. When he is genuinely confused and not feeling well, he leaves off. When he feels better, it’s back to the cruel games.

          Andy, no, I don’t need to be here. But I am the only one, and I will stick it out. And I do feel responsible… as I am legally the designated guardian by the trust he created, and there are no other relatives in this country.

          1. Hi Vera,

            Ah now i understand, i bet the situation has you hoping he had more days when he was below par, so you can rest. I know i would feel that way if i were in your shoes. Stay strong, there are plenty of people who would refuse to have a bar of him.

            Can i ask you something? Before he became ill did he ever say strange things in conversation? For example, he might say “I have never been to New York, i always enjoyed it there though when it was snowing”. Things that do not make sense, seemingly contradicting himself wildly without realizing it, or words that are used without proper context, or simply the wrong words even when his educational level may be high?

            I ask this because Psychopaths use both sides of the brain to process language, we use the left (i think), so if the answer is yes for you and maybe others on this thread, then either Narcissists also use the whole brain to process words or you are dealing with a Psychopath instead.

        2. Vera
          Your comment about the rude woman on the street sounds like she no longer has borders. My STBX CD husband was pretty regularly insulting strangers. Seemed we couldn’t go anywhere without him being rude. Grocery stores, restaurants, anywhere – he seemed to thinking ok to speak his mind. No wonder someone didn’t punch him. He’s crossed the line so far I’m sure there is no point of return for him. He’s gotten nastier and meaner as time goes on.

      2. vera,
        Who said you are responsible for finding the medicines that are hidden or misplaced by your father? 🙂
        If you are taking care of him without getting anything in return, then tell him in plain and simple terms about who is responsible for this stuff. Give him bit of benefit of doubt, dementia etc, but watch carefully what else he forgets about.
        If he is providing something back in kind, like shelter, food, then treat these games as job. It is quite funny to get a job where you are paid to play hide and seek with the employer. 😀

        1. Hi Andy, Jackie and Vera,
          You guys sure gave me some real deep belly laughs. Jackie, I’m not sure if I am reading you right. I am puzzled you say you have never encountered a Narcissist, I am wondering where you live? Because I sure would like to move there. Where I live they are everywhere.

          Andy, great comeback to Vera.

          Vera, I hope you are weathering well taking care of your father, I took care of mine for a year and then he passed on. An obnoxious CDN that never cared for anyone but himself. At the very last moment he claimed he found Jesus. Perhaps, one day I will find out.

          Blessings to all

          1. Hi Andy,

            Lol, there are no doubt plenty where i live, it’s London UK, East London to be exact, stones throw from Whitechapel.

            What i meant was ‘to my knowledge’, of course i have met some horrid opinionated people, those that think the sun shines out of their proverbials but without knowing them better i wouldn’t know if they were Narcissists or not.

            There Was a Gym teacher called Ms Wilkins in Secondary School, she was from Devon and sometimes i think back and wonder, nobody wanted to take PE if she was in charge, she really got very spiteful if somebody didn’t want to do stuff that was quite dangerous, like climbing a rope when the kid clearly was terrified!

  3. I guess I just want to share my story with people who may understand, sympathize, and maybe provide advice. I’ve changed some details.

    I am a man and I’ve come to the realization that my wife of 12 years has been consistently manipulative and emotionally abusive. Now that I know what to look for, I see all the patterns: using anger to control, using my guilt and shame against me to control me, name-calling, subtle comments that suggest failure or her dissatisfaction, the lack of real empathy, etc. etc. For years I was in denial, telling myself it wasn’t that bad, that I could handle it, and that I didn’t have any other option but to stay in the marriage. After reading Dr. Simon’s book In Sheep’s Clothing and others, reviewing things that have happened over the years, I came to the horrible, gut wrenching conclusion that my wife is character disordered.

    I’m also fairly sure I’m somewhat high on the neurotic spectrum. I’m prone to excessive guilt, shame, fear, and conscientiousness. As I look back on the years, I see my spouse has played on these weaknesses throughout our marriage.

    She would bring up mistakes, both small and big, from years and years ago as she would influence me. The shame would wash over me and Ide give in to whatever she wanted. Basically, I eventually totally withdrew and became passive. I was just trying to avoid the next outburst. I couldn’t be myself around her. I think I sort of forgot who I was or what I wanted. I felt like I was just serving a prison sentence. Waiting for something to happen – for me to die, the kids to grow up, something?

    Of course there were some good times, but the roller coaster would just start again. She’d have a temper tantrum/ rage attack and make us all miserable for a day or weekend. The next morning, she’d act like nothing happened. We’d be so glad it was over, we just went along with her “everything is fine” lie.

    The realization that I’ve essentially been “played” for so long and had a huge chunk of my life stolen left me literally screaming in pain. My emotions were basically shut down for years (I believe as a coping mechanism). When I truly realized what was going on, an explosion of emotion came out. I feel horrible at times, but in a deeper way, I feel like I have some hope in my life for the first time in many years.

    We have children and thats the reason I stuck things out for as long as I did. But I now realize they need to learn to protect themselves and I can’t teach them that unless I am strong myself.

    I’m currently separated. Taking things slowly and trying to figure out how to go on. Of course she’s been on her best behavior lately and playing the charm/ nice/ innocent card. It’s confusing as hell, and deep down I know what I need to do, but it’s scary and I’m not sure sometimes if I have the strength.

    1. GeeWhizzz,
      Well, you post sounds like story of my life narrated on a tape recorder…
      Since you are separated right now, so it is good time to gather yourself and decide if she has any scope for improvement or you should stay away permanently.
      You are very right, unless you are strong enough, your family will degenerate into a dysfunctional one. And, your children will have suffer the consequences for their rest of life. Sometime it is better to cut your losses, and move away, and pray that over time your children come to see the contrast between two parents.
      Do spend time on this website and read blogs for few months. I am sure your time here will not be wasted and your will necessary insights and inner strength that will help you a lot.

      1. GeeWhizzz,
        Do spend time here and read as many blogs as possible. You probably have lot to learn in short time to deal with a character disturbed person who has spend a good part of 30 odd years practicing her skills.
        First time I read In Sheeps Clothing, I reread it some 10 odd times within a month. In later readings, I could go through 200 pages within a day. 🙂

      2. Thanks Andy. That is my struggle now. Leaving my kids with this person. She is pretty, I think the term is “enmeshed” with the kids. They have seen a dysfunctional relationship and I worry constantly what goes on when I am not there.

        My hope, as you say, is that eventually the children will see – and feel- the contrast between their parents.

        Thanks again for the support and advice.

        1. Hello GeeWhizz,
          If you have noticed that there is an enmeshed relationship between your ex and the children; I would recommend that you become familiar with the work of Dr. Craig Childress. He has a great blog page that is very informative. I would suggest reading it from the beginning. If your ex is narcissistic and you have noticed enmeshment you, for the sake of your children should familiarize yourself with Dr. Childress work.

    2. Gee,

      You are stronger than you realize, next time you have doubts, look at your face in the mirror, see the pain she has caused you in your eyes and know that this is the vital reason you go on and do what you need to do.

      It WILL end, it doesn’t feel like it right now but it will, take small steps forward always….

        1. Hi Gee,

          It’s simple advice, but i find simple advice the best; looking at your own eyes cuts through all the complicated stuff, it’s right there literally staring you in the face.

          I wish you ALL the luck in the World, and quite a few of your postings had me in tears, one of which i had to break off to get the toilet roll to cry into (we ain’t too sophisticated in our house) lol!

          You are doing the right thing, so take care, that’s an order:)

  4. I just wanted to share a couple observations about my spouse that strike me as odd and, I think, are evidence of her issues. I recently poured my heart out to her and told her stuff about my personality and heart that I’ve come to see. During this conversation, she just sort of starred at me and studied me. She basically said “that’s interesting.” There wasn’t anything in return as far as sharing or empathizing. Just information gathering on her part.

    Another observation is that I’ve had deep connections with other people in my life. If I tell them things about myself or my situation, I feel they care about me and I about them in a deep way. It’s a connection. I know it sounds crazy (how did we end up married?) but I’ve never felt that with my wife.

    Has anyone else felt the same?

    1. Trust your gut feeling.
      May be you are dealing with a low class devil that did not know any better than just “that’s interesting”. Some high class devil “share” titbits from their life first to get you to open up. A crafty one will continue “sharing” their own inner thoughts during such intimate conversation. Only problem is that there is no inner thoughts other than plain simple selfishness, so it is hard to invent something on the fly, even for a crafty manipulator. There are very limited ways to sugarcoat beliefs like “I, that means I, I and only I, matters. Weak people believe in God. etc etc”

      1. GeeWizzz,

        Sounds like you must be married to my sister or perhaps X. I would say that if you moved out because of the above you must have been pretty desparate and sick. Now you are trusting her with your most intimate vulnerabilites. Just think the hayday she can have with them, why on earth would she care now. Perhaps, she needs to get you back on the fish hook and a extra barb so you don’t get away again.

        I am not trying to be sarcastic in a mean way, its just so obvious one does not write what you wrote and think leaving may have opened her eyes. Take as much time to educate yourself as much as possible. Dr. Simon has written several books and has You tubes to watch. There are several other You Tubes that are very good.

        If you keep, posting we all will try to help you, there is nothing you can’t or anything to be ashamed of here. We all have had our prison time and the lucky ones flew the coop. No, I haven’t been drinking, just happy and at peace. I remember one fellow told me “I just couldn’t stand to hear her voice ever again.” I know what he meant now, the longer you stay away and are free the clearer you will see. The fog will lift.

        Whatever, you do GeeWhizzz don’t educate her to what you figured out about her. You will only give her ammo to use against you. You may decide to try counseling if that is even an option. But whatever you do make sure they are well trained in behavioral therapy. Many therapist are not able to correctly diagnose or treat these CD individuals.

        Andy, has given you good advise, read, read and, more read watch all the You Tubes. Please start to take back your true self, be strong individuals like her pray on weakness they despise your vulnerabilities. Read all the Topics Dr. Simon has written in the archives and the 1000’s of posts of so many like us. This will give you strength and validation.

        Be good to yourself and take your time. I hope you stay for awhile.

        1. Thanks BTOV. I am starting to see you are right that it is a mistake to share what I’m learning about her in the hopes that she will change. We went to counseling as a couple and the first few times she basically threw me under the bus and convinced the counselor I was the problem and I needed to do more X, Y and Z. I was trying, so I did more X, Y and Z and it, of course, made no difference.

          I also am asking questions about myself like why I allowed this to go on for so long? I’m not blaming myself, but I think a more healthy person would have shut her behavior down the first time it happened and then left the relationship. When we first met, I was in a very vulnerable state of mind, my self-esteme was rock bottom. On some deep level, I felt “lucky” someone would even take me.

          None of this excuses their behavior, but I think we need to understand our own issues so we don’t become victims again.

          I can relate to “not wanting to hear her voice” again. It’s not all the time. It’s really a certain tone she gets when she is angry, acusing, blaming, etc. I hear that tone and I just shut down and go into a different place mentally. I am just now realizing that it is just basically a hopeless feeling when I hear that tone in her voice. I know there is no reasoning with her, no point to explain or discuss. All I can do when I hear that tone is give in and try to avoid her. It’s a terrible way to live.

          1. GeeW said: “I also am asking questions about myself like why I allowed this to go on for so long? I’m not blaming myself, but I think a more healthy person would have shut her behavior down the first time it happened and then left the relationship.”

            You bet. We have squishy boundaries, and are way too conscientious and even neurotic about being nice. There ought to be reeducation schools for us! Heh.

            It’s been a really interesting process for me, unlearning this. E.g. my father was in the habit of touching me inappropriately, not sexually, just touching me like his property, unwelcome, intrusive, and a lot. So I set out to change that. That meant not only to speak about it, but also to habituate myself to putting up stronger unspoken boundaries. I had to steel myself to behave in ways I was taught are rude — wrongly — like obviously flinching, objecting loudly, immediately and forcefully moving his hand, or removing myself to a safe distance when I sensed it coming. I thought he’d never stop, but you know what? You can teach an old dog. He rarely does it now, and when he does it, it does not bother me any more. After all, we are related, and some small amount of physical contact is not outrageous. I did not have to go “zero tolerance.” So in the process I learned to be stronger, and to stand up for myself in yet another small but important thing, and clarified my own boundary for myself. 🙂

        2. BTOV,

          Your first paragraph is spot on.

          Two Youtubers for Gee to watch, it will all come into place, Narcissimsurvivor and Narcissismsupport, both excellent!

    2. GeeW: opening up is always a mistake in my experience. They study you, and use your disclosures and weak spots against you next time.

      Go have fun with other people that treat you well, do things you love to do. Find you again. Bit by bit, you’ll grow stronger and recapture your own self and your life. That’s been my experience, anyways. (hug)

      1. Thank you vera. I think I will try to limit contact as much as possible. We need some contact because of the children. Fortunately she is letting me spend a quite a bit of time with them, but she is starting to push back on that.

        I do feel like I am getting stronger slowly, but it is a slow process. I know what I experienced and feel, but I still question myself. My extended family is pretty supporting, but they even sometimes are questioning if what I am saying and feeling is really “true.” Even a counselor said, in a skeptical way, “Do you really think she is that manipulative?” after I gave an example of her behavior. YES! I do think she is that manipulative! But it is hard to remember my truth because she can be nice at times and does “nice” appearing things for people.

        1. GeeW, maybe you should question the choice of your counselor? I once had a person like that, paid her good money I had shortage of, and she did a lot of damage by not taking me at face value, but rather subtly siding with the abuser.

          You are very fortunate to have family believing. For me, it was a very long haul, finally telling people what was really happening, and having people shake their head in disbelief, over and over and over, dammit! You find your true allies by their fruits — whether they are willing to support you and stand on your side.

          One step at a time. 🙂

    3. GeeWhizz,

      So the gig is up. She knows it and is planning her return attack. I suspect that you said more than that you are a sensitive person. I suspect you did some comparing of her response to the marriage vows and you idea and response to the wedding vows.

      Case in point. It got to the point with my ex that I was starting to lose my mental clarity. Or maybe I was beginning to see on a very deep level what I did not want to see. It does not come easy. To know that you are living with someone that does not have the capacity to care for you and that they are beginning to show signs of true mental instability.

      I was in the hall and I just lay down in a fetal position and starting doing some sort of primal scream, my head in my hands…somewhere between crying and howling. The stress of being with the ex had finally got my to the point that I was starting to crack. I was cracking because I was starting to see just what he did not want me to see. That the marriage was a lie, he was a lie and that he was dangerous. My terror of him finally began to show in me. I remember being there on the floor and he came up the stairs and stood over me. He looked at me with dead eyes, I mean this, there was NO emotion in his eyes, he swiftly turned around, still in this dead like trance and walked quickly down the steps and entered his office not to come out until I had gone to bed. I still can’t describe the feeling I got from that encounter. It is like he switched off.

      He had switched off at other times, we would be having a normal, regular conversation about mundane household things and then he would stop, the blank look appeared and he again walked into his study, me in mid sentence.

      Just completely bizarre.

      It has been two and 1/2 years since the divorce. Although I got a settlement that will allow me some peace of mind in my old age, I am sixty, and this is to be my “retirement fund” you would think I would be so happy to be out of this marriage. Not so. It has been a real struggle to piece together just what happened, in that marriage, how much of it I denied, how much I covered up from the world, how much I lied to myself about my own motives.

      I know it started about a year from the divorce but once the divorce was done and I had to start over at 58 with no job, no family, and no strong relationships close at hand (I do have a few very close and good friends but they are in other states) my hair started falling out. Big time. I believe the horror of that marriage and the daily horror of living with someone that can really mind fuck you (which it took a long time for me to understand that this was happening as I too lean to the neurotic side) I now have to go to a dermatologist to see if anything can be done. I am hoping that the shedding is done. I do not have the typical menopausal type thinning. I have the type due to trauma. There is a medical name to it but I can’t spell it and I won’t try. I am just grateful that I did not develop more illnesses. I began to drink heavily but in the last few months I have been working with a support group that has been a real help in helping me cut my drinking in half! And there is more to go….I will get back to moderation. And I do moderate now, but I slip. No I have not had any side effects such as dui, self harm, losing jobs etc. I am very much liked where I work and I do not drink heavily when I work so I am on the mend.

      I sure hope my hair grows back or at least stops shedding like it seems to be now.

      So what I am trying to say, is just because you are separated, does not mean all is well. It will take time, support and a great deal of strength to finally cut ties with this person.

      It was hardest for me to realize that I do not even know the man I married now. Maybe I never did. I do think that he has progressed in his “illness” as he is about to come 57 in a few months and his career is about over before it ever began. He is a medical doctor that just cannot keep a job because of his behavior on the job, which, of course mimics the behavior he has at home.

      Keep posting. Finding this site was a godsend to me. It was not easy to read these stories since so many of them sounded as if I had written them myself. So much information to process…so much to say, OK, who did this, who had that responsibility, what did I do to cause this or at least enable the behavior. One must look to both sides, yours and hers. It does not help in the long run to blame it all on the other side. You must take your own responsibility even if it was just for your passivity. No blame there, just the facts. I grew in that marriage. I am a better, stronger person even if it cost me my hair (please I hope not), but it was hell and looking back, would I have done it again….well, without that marriage I would not have a retirement fund, so I can say something good of a tangible nature came of it, and as I said before, I am stronger and a better person. But would I do it again. Not for all the money in the world. Trial by fire. Who wants that. But I did it anyway and I am still alive.

      Keep posting and reading,


      1. Theresa K,

        I had a severe traumatic physical injury and my hair came out in the handfuls. After the stress and trauma resolved my hair did grow back and we are about the same age. Alcohol is really not good and I do understand. Try a herbal medicine called Horsetail. Also, get yourself on some good vitamin supplements, liquid magnesium is good to take and several doses of vitamin C a day can be real helpful including other things.

        Great post, lest we ever forget, thank you.

        1. Thanks BTOV,

          I will try the Horsetail. I just started Biotin about two months ago and my eyelashes are starting to grow back as also my eyebrows. I think I see a little bit around my hairline in front but that may be wishful thinking. I washed my hair in what I use for my face…Burts Bees Baby Wash and it left it clean without any goo (moisturizer) that really lets the scalp show through. It did not look half bad when I styled it forever. But it is all smoke and mirrors….if I keep losing hair it will have to be a wig next. But thank you for your support. No one knows what it is like to lose your hair like a woman knows what it is like to lose her hair. I know men have a hard time with it but the world sees it as something that happens to men. To women, not so much and there is such a stigma.

          thanks again, TMKSarah

          1. If I may offer a word of advice concerning your hair loss: please consider locating a doctor who understands, properly tests and treats adrenal function, which, interestingly, is not most endos.

            Ongoing stress (CPTSD) often causes adrenal exhaustion, which is on an axis with thyroid and other hormone functions.

            Treating my adrenals and thyroid stopped my hair loss.


      2. Thanks Teresa K. Yes, the gig is up. That’s exactly right. I just can’t believe how long it took me to figure it out. I guess I wasn’t ready emotionally to face the truth.

        As far as the “primal scream” I can totally relate. I was at work and reading about manipulative people and emotional abuse online. I read something and nearly every single point they made struck home for me and I saw what my spouse was doing. The realization made me almost sick. I ran out to my car and drove randomly to a park screaming the entire time. The pain was almost too much to bear.

        I still have so much to learn and realize I’m only at the beginning of the journey, but I feel like I’m on the right path. Thanks again.

        1. Gee,

          You are on the right path. To feel the pain is the beginning. And the shock is excrutiating. There is no going back now. You now know. That is why you screamed like you did.

          Get all the financial documents in order. Close bank accounts before she can. Get a lawyer to make sure the kids have adequate care and the house does not get forclosed on if you have one. This is going to be tough going forward. As so many have said here….now it is war.

          Sure, if you want to make the marriage work it takes more than you. But protect yourself and your kids.

          Protect yourself…that is your very most important thing you must do.

          It is all about the money now. If she chooses to change, fine, but start owning up to your own passivity to keep the peace. She did not respect it then and she surely is not going to respect your go along attitude to keep the peace now.

          If you can’t do it for you do it for your kids. Oh, and be ready to hear a lot of stories from your kids that their mom is telling them about you that are not true but non the less not to your favor. War 101. We have all been there. Just get control of the money or she will.

          Got it! Good. And do it tomorrow. Cut up all credit cards that have joint names on them. Stash some cash…at least $5000. Bank box, paid in cash at a different bank out of the county that you live. No paper statements.

          Do it tomorrow. Leave enough in the joint to cover two months expenses, prepay the mortgage for two months. Take the cash for the attorney. Expect nothing less from her. Believe me, expect more. She just might respect you for it. Wouldn’t that be a wonder! When I did that, and moved 1/2 our stuff out when he was at work he thought I had grown horns and a tail. Well, I did.


          1. Fortunately our money is pretty separate. That is the one thing I actually stood up for myself on.

          2. Theresa,

            What a belly laugh, I laughed so hard, a horn and a tail. I just put on the the suit of armor. So far it has protected me and the word.

            Blessings to all.

      3. Vera,

        I am so sorry about your pain, there is space now between you, try and relax as much as you can, so you can heal, that bastard won’t win XX.

    4. You have done the right thing, very best of fortunes to you Sir!

      Please do NOT tell her anything more, she will store this in her memory bank to use against you later, these people can wait years to strike, many of them have excellent memories apparantly, one of the hallmarks.

      Once again, you have saved yourself from further damage hopefully, i hope she behaves concerning the Children and to not turn this into a war.

      1. My spouse definitely has an excellent memory for things others have done or said that insulted or wronged her in some way. She brings up things people said 10+ years ago and holds on to her anger and resentment over them. She brings up little things I did from 10+years ago to shame and guilt me. It worked, but not anymore.

        What’s telling is that her memory is suddenly terrible when I brought up abusive things she has said and done in the past. She somehow remembers every tiny perceived slight others have done to her in the past, yet claims she doesn’t remember some of the most hurtful things she has done to me and our children. I don’t know if she is lying about remembering things or if her abuse was just so commonplace and natural that it didn’t register in her memory as a significant event.

        I read somewhere, and I think it is true, they do this as a way of justifying their abusive behavior in their own minds. They think, “this person said or did these things to me, therefore, they deserve the kind of punishment and abuse I am giving them.” I just now realized that this kind of proves they know what they are doing is wrong. If they didn’t know on some level it was wrong, why would they need to justify it?

        1. I believe they know what they say and do is wrong. They don’t care how it negatively affects us. I have an issue upcoming to deal with my STBX. A good friend said maybe he’ll do the right thing this time. No. I know now he will always do the wrong thing, always do to win in his mind, always do to gain an advantage. I’ve accepted this about him. No more surprises. These people might “play” nice, but it’s an act.

        2. She’s lying. You have other things to do right now. Stop trying to figure her behavior out. You can do that later.

          She is into revenge. As I posted a few moments ago, so you must be on line, please listen and protect yourself. You have had over 12 years to figure her out. That is fine.

          Right now, figure out how to keep from being in the poor house because you kept wondering why she would do such things. It does not matter one wit right now. Get up on your hind legs and fight back.

          Get the money before she does. Just take the money…put it in a sole account. Get cash for the kids an attorney and leave a little to pay the bills for the next two months. Pay the mortgage for two months. Get all financial documents. Cut up any joint credit cards.



          She can’t be trusted. Not right now.


          1. She is so right about the joint account. She will wipe it out. I had a hard time closing joint account because STBX kept using it and as long as there are pending withdrawals the bankers don’t want to close it. Both banks worked with me and closed them as fast as they could. Your wife probably has a plan. I wish you the best.

        3. Gee, So she DOES have an excellent memory, well well well that doesn’t surprise me, please keep your own council when in her company, become about as interesting as a rock when around her; i have heard this technique works.

          You mention her suddenly failing memory whenever she is called upon to remember her own transgressions, oh she remembers alright, it’s a well known trick they use.

          It appears as if there is a whole glossary of behaviours that they use to control others, it’s like something out of a Sci Fi film, robots that have a sinister program running them to totally dominate people without any of the finer attributes that make us human.

      2. Jackie,

        I wish I could say this will not be a war…but when someone says to me “that’s interesting” after I have bared my soul to them I expect to get reamed.

        This is war.


        Anyway, Gee has to make sure the kids are all right and that he has options. And options mean money.

        1. Hi Teresa,

          Yes it’s very chilling, and i immediately thought of the memory bank thing with Narcs, i fully expect she will use the kids as enemies against Gee, but i did not want to say this outright.

          I think Gee is right when he decided to act with grace in front of the Children, so hopefully they can see the contrast between mother and father and realize the truth.

          1. Gee, Always, remember the children first. Always, act with dignity and respect, never bad mouth her to them no matter how bad, com here and let it rip. The children will know you don’t act or talk like her. They probably will be treated in the same manner she treated you, they will need you more than ever and you will be their trusted refuge. Go for joint custody, in time her colors may show through and if she finds a boyfriend she may find the children to tedious and in her way and be willing to relinquish custody. I have seen this happen many times.

    5. You probably tried to connect with her especially in the beginning. Manipulative people are good at making you feel like they are trying to connect with you. It’s part of the snare they lay to trap you. Baring your soul to them is information gathering to be used against you in the future. They’ll tell you how damaged you are and use your past you told them about as proof. They’ll pull out these big guns if you stand up for yourself against their demeaning, hateful behavior. You have to follow what you know to be true not what they tell you. They are very good at blaming their victims and crazy making when confronted with their unacceptable behavior. You have people in your life who you are connected with and care about you. You do feel those connections. The fact that you don’t feel that connection with her really tells you you the truth about your relationship. The voice of experience is speaking here. It is hard to let go but I knew things would never change with him. I gave him lots of chances. When you get yourself free, over time, you’ll start to see how much happier you’ve become free from the tyranny and craziness. This type of relationship is not love or healthy. I know it can be lonely and is painful but you learn to love yourself and to know who really loves you in your life.

  5. Theresa K,

    Great post, thank you, lest we ever forget. I had a traumatic injury years back and I was losing my hair by the handfuls, we are about the same age. It took some time but my hair did come back that with reduction in stress and healing from the surgery. Give it some time, try to get a good vitamin supplement, liquid magnesium is good and several doses of vitamin C a day. Horsetail is a good too.

    If you dye your hair that is very hard on hair growth and so is alcohol and smoking. It took about 2 years before mine starting coming in thick again, consideration given to age. Give it some more time and please don’t fret we don’t need any more stress to hinder our fair locks. We need happiness, truth and light for health. I have been experimenting with organic extracts and homeopathic remedies and have been having some good results.

    I am curious where do you think the X CD fits in regards to Dr. Simons article.

    Again I can relate to so much of what you shared and yes we can come out of it a stronger and better person. I will pray for your hair to return, I think you suffered and lost enough.

    Blessings dear Kindred Spirit

  6. I’m looking for a site to discuss narcissism. While I find Dr Simon’s ideas persuasive, I am troubled by what I read in the blog discussion.

    I don’t see the “them vs us” dynamic helpful. There seems to be a presumption that the “narcissists out there” are evil, troubled, unempathic souls whose behaviour leads to all the problems in the world, whereas “we who are not narcissistic” are beautiful, wonderful, terrific people who exhibit moral insight and wisdom and have never caused any problems for anybody whatsoever.

    I think that’s simplistic and misguided. I think that people such as myself who struggle with narcissists are as troubled as they are. If I didn’t have all sorts of problems, I wouldn’t be troubled by narcissistic characters. I would know what to do and how to enjoy positive relationships. The problem lies with me and I’m simply the other side of the coin.

    But I don’t see that here. There’s a lot of judgement about other people – how bad they are – but I don’t see much by way of honest self-examination. What have I done to contribute to make the narcissist the way he is? What could I have done differently? Why is being a victim so important to me? What do I get out of being a victim? And is being a victim an inverse kind of narcissism? Is it a subtle way of being narcissistic and of expresssing self-love, as I feel sorry for myself, and obsess about myself as the biggest victim ever, rather than as somebody who has behaved stupidly and unintelligently in trying circumstances?

    I’ve never met a perfect person. I’ve never met somebody who doesn’t, in some ways, express narcissistic traits. The moment you say how evil somebody else is, which implies how terrific you are – isn’t that narcissistic? Aren’t you being arrogant and grandiose when you judge others as worse and as lesser?

    What happened to Matthew in the Bible: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”

    1. Deb,

      Please read my post on this thread about the very subject you speak of. Yes, there are two people, and one must look to our responsibility in the relationship.

      In answer to how this all works about the two sides of the subject of this post by Dr. Simon. I see this blog as a way of bringing out little by little the experiences of being with a disordered being. That being said, we who have to deal with them can become very disordered ourselves, which I own up to in previous posts on other topics and with this topic.

      So to ask to stay on this exact topic doesn’t seem possible because each topic brings out “our” or “my” personal experience. It is like a microcosm in a macrocosm. Dr. Simon posts a topic and then the experiences are laid bare that are touched by the particular topic.

      This is not exact science. It is a very personal display of experience in all its winding curves and hills and valleys. There are no straight lines here.

      Case in point…which do you think my ex is? Vunerable or not. He can show compassion for the death of someone he like who was a patient, and he can become terrifyingly panic stricken. He can put his hands around my neck and shove me up to a wall. He can steal $100000 from our joint savings but cry when I say I am leaving. So how does he fit into the topic here. You tell me. Because I surely do not know. I just know I lived this topic and I still don’t know what and who I was dealing with most of the time.

      Again, this is not linear thinking. It can’t be because it is not a linear topic nor the experiences of the people here linear. Y does not intersect X nor does A plus B does not equal C and Chaos Theory does not compute…there truly is a lack of component to make this fit models we understand at this time.


      You tell me, who is this man.

    2. That’s a different viewpoint there, Deb.

      If someone else truly has kept information off the table(which tends to happen), misled and exploited someone else and then an exploited party has tremendous amounts of self-doubt and self-blame to top it off, especially if there’s been emotional or other abuse, especially if it’s been from a someone from the other extreme of the neurosis-CD -spectrum(like a sadist or a psychopath or worse, a sadistic psychopath), it’s really helpful for recovery to get the fog lifted, to have someone else articulate and validate one’s experience.

      Damaged self-esteem and self-respect is a bother of its own and healing isn’t easy. Not sure about whether an actual victim mentality could step into the picture.

      That’s not to say well-intentioned people couldn’t have flaws, too. Aspiring to become a wonderful, terrific person with solid moral insight and wisdom(to borrow some of your words) isn’t really easy and like it’s said here many times, good intentions aren’t enough.

      It seems to me that people’s unhealthy tendencies can mesh in many different ways. There are one-sided exploitative relationships. In another kind of relationship, two good-intentioned people with unresolved or undealt-with issues can have bad blood and both be miserable. There are many ways a relationship can be unhealthy, whether it’s a total personality, character and psyche of one or both parties.

      It can be hard to be objective, though, being oneself in it.

    3. And yes, Deb, it is possible that someone could talk about another, implying that oneself must be a favorable opposite.

      Here I think much of discussion is about setting limits so someone, who only cares about themselves, can’t so easily benefit at your expense.

      Character disturbance, once again, is a continuum and there are many behavior patterns to watch for. Do read about different disturbed character and personality types. There are indeed people, who do swing the sword of righteousness with ferocity and authority, pleased to get to damn people, be right and make others wrong or even inferior(morally or otherwise). I’ve run into some of those. Very sad to see such perversion of righteousness.

    4. Deb, I think you make a good point overall, but I think you might be mischaracterizing what some of us are saying. I don’t think anyone is saying, and I haven’t read anyone claiming, that the targets of abusive narcissists are perfect, wonderful people who deserve praise and narcissists are simply evil monsters who should be shunned.

      Of course the focus is on the abusive behavior that many of us have experienced. That’s what this site is about.

      But I agree with your general point that we need to take a hard look at ourselves and figure out why we hooked up with an abuser and stayed, in many cases, for so long. We have to make ourselves a hard target. I believe many character disordered people are truly predators. They seek out the vulnerable. They use people’s strengths (empathy, responsibility, guilt) against them. I don’t ever want to be the target again so I am willing to look at my issues so I can spot and avoid any future abusers.

    5. Hi Deb,
      I hear where you are coming from. Thank you for raising this topic, as I also believe that there are two sides to this coin, and I want to know my side of it. Understanding myself better will help me to be able to recognize and manage people in my life who would use or harm me (whether intentionally or not.)

      I am trying to understand my role in past unhealthy relationships with selfish, narcissistic, character disturbed people. I don’t feel victimized because, fortunately, these relationships did not take decades of my life, nor were the other parties particularily violent or abusive. Some others who come here, have not been so lucky. Maybe feeling victimized comes down to how much we have invested in the relationship and how long we were deliberately deceived by the other party. I do feel like I have been used though.

      I don’t believe I made the narcissist the way he is (as you mention). He is what he is, but I contributed to the continuation of the unhealthy relationship until I wised up and left. I am partly responsible for allowing him to use me. This is what I am trying to understand about myself (naivety, stupidity, self-doubt, wanting not to fail, worried about what other’s might think, not setting good boundaries and expectations). One reader here has honestly admitted that she stayed partly because she liked the lifestyle, the income and the status of being married. I think this is quite common. Marriage often seems to become an unspoken business agreement between the spouses. So, as you say, it is not right to put all the blame on the narcissist.

      I think it might be true that narcissistic people tend also to be the poets, artists, thinkers, charmers, musicians, wits, lovers and geniuses. They are attractive and loveable and do incredible and amazing things. Of course I am attracted to them. But they probably include many of the alcoholics, manic depressives and mentally unstable too. I know now that I have to reconcile all aspects of a person before I decide how much of myself to give to a relationship.

    6. Deb,

      You are right about the bashing that goes on in the comments. Reader’s comment do tend to exaggerate things once they figure the narcissist out. Even though I maybe at fault to lesser degree (say, 20%), my posts will display less than 5% as my own fault.

      A long term relationship with narcissist does make one bitter to the core, especially after figuring out what a waste of time that relationship was, and that will show up in big way when that person talks about his/her ex.
      And, lack of publishing own fault is not narcissism.

      One thing that I disagree with you is the use of quote, “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”.
      I will say, “Everyone has varying amount of of sawdust in their eye. But, if you see plank in your brother’s eye, then simply stay away. Do include your brother’s wife in your daily prayers to God, for you have no idea what battle she is fighting inside her home.”

  7. BTOV,

    You must’ve recommended Millon’s book earlier. I have a hazy recall of it. Anyways, what’s it about? I’m not quite sure.

  8. Also Deb,

    It is true that for some it is glaringly apparent that some are angry, very very angry and that is what they must deal with. This blog allows those to vent but to say that those that blog here are in the victim throes and nothing they have done is suspect.

    We are discussing dealing with a disordered person that does not have our best interests at heart. We are not dealing with two people that are having a marital rift, or family rift, or even a boss and worker rift, we are talking of someone that has true lack of development of basic human conditioning or socialization whereas anything goes if it benefits them is the norm not the aberration.

    I think if you read more of the posts you will see that it is not all one way or the other.

    I hope you continue to question and get into the fray so to speak. It is always good to be the “devil’s advocate” if you may.


    1. Theresa k
      I’m one of the angry ones you speak of. Realizing I’ve been toyed with and lied to, etc for years fills me with anger and hate for this man. Some day the anger will subside I hope but the battle is still ongoing and am continually being wronged. How can’t I be angry?

      1. There is nothing wrong with anger used well.

        I have known those, my mother as an example, who blamed my father for all and I mean all (if she wasn’t blaming us kids) for all of her unhappiness for her whole life.

        What kind of life is that!?

        Anger has its place. My getting angry and I mean really angry finally catapulted me to divorce my ex. I am still angry. But I recognize that I refuse to live my entire life blaming him for how I feel a few years from now. Right now I am still processing that anger. I know I must be very careful. I have no intention of forgiving and forgetting. Not for a very long time…but in time I hope to be able to do so if for nothing else my own happiness.

        With all the love in the world,


        1. Anger does have a place but I can’t let it rob me of a good life. I get angry but I also have lots of good emotions as well. Being the target of a CD is difficult. Seemed like anger came along when I was no longer hurting. Now that I understand the circumstances the emotions have certainly changed. No longer shocked but well aware of what is to come. No more hurt but angry. No longer living with a black cloud over my head. No more constant negativity thrown at me. It’s so good to be away from it.

  9. Gee whiz
    I hope to see you continuing to post. I have learned so much from Dr. Simons articles in the from the comments of others going through similar turmoil. Just a couple of tips. Never underestimate what your CD spouse will do.b after I decided to divorce and told the husband so I wasn’t quite in the position to leave the home yet. I waited for him to get another job which took about six more months of living in the same house with him. During that time we tried to negotiate a settlement. Little did I know he was further toying and manipulating me and playing me like a puppet. I did not yet know the extent of what he had done financially or the skanky life he was leading which I had no idea of. The extent of what he done Still boggles my mind. Took a lot of therapy and especially reading this blog to help me heal and understand what really has been going on. CDs are not normal they don’t think normal, they are evil, they are selfish and the worst possible mate person can have. I am so much happier and find much more piece being away from the sicko Of course I’m in divorce nightmare hell but it’s something I have to go through. Be careful. The CDs always seem to have an agenda

    1. Thank you Lucy. I am struggling with figuring out just how character disordered my spouse is. I know she is manipulative, entitled, verbally abusive, and low (or lacking) empathy. But she is not as horrid as some of the stories I’ve read. She is also capable of acting kind. Perhaps the niceness is an act and she’s trying to get something. I don’t know.

      She also claims she is trying to change and wants to improve. My gut tells me it is a trap. I don’t want to think that. I want to believe she will change, but it just doesn’t feel safe or right.

      My main concern is my children. I worry how she might be playing them like she did me. Men seem to get screwed in custody issues. Emotional and verbal abuse just doesn’t seem to mean anything in family court.

      In a way, I am afraid to even post this. I worry, irrationally, that she will find this and use it against me in some way.

      1. Why does it take these people the possibility of divorce to suddenly say they want to change? If they were good loving people they’d have never said and done the things they have done. It’s like they just are not nice people. They have to work at being good. As my counselor said , “he can behave for awhile but it won’t last”. Behaving is not changing. My SYBX has bad character. I don’t like him. I don’t like him.
        I know what you mean about worrying spouse will see posts. Since we are anonymous and no names being mentioned I don’t believe harm can come. But yeah I’d rather not be found out by spouse.

        1. I completely agree Lucy.

          Gee, when she changes and acts changed for at least a year then maybe and that is a big MAYBE you can let some of your guard down. Of course they can be nice…that is what fucks with your head…and oh, how we want them to be nice…oh, how we yearn for them to treat us just nice…not even nice nice or could we even ask for respect, romance and deep commitment. Sure, in our dreams. That is what mind fucks us. So the next time she is nice to you ask yourself :what does she want.

          Then you will see the mind fuck.


          1. Theresa K
            All so true. Throw me a bone! A little bone and maybe I’ll think you are nice. Don’t settle for the bone. You deserve much much much more.

          1. You think I’m okay? I feel like I’m on the right track. Finally seeing him for what he really is, not the man I always wanted and wished he would be.

      2. Gee,

        Keep going, trust your gut instinct, i have heard that CD’s can be on their best behaviour for years to get what they want, everything you have mentioned about what you are feeling is dead on the nail, you read the situation correctly.

        I have heard that Men get the worse deal in Court also, a situation that badly needs to change, if you can afford it, get the best legal advice you can.

        1. Gee,

          If you have relocated, it would be in your favor to relocate to the same school district the children attend. One point taken into consideration in a child custody case is the uprooting of the children from extended family, friends and school.

        2. Gee,
          Document , document, document, and do all your corrensopndece by e-mail. She is capable of anything. My sister accused her X of sexually abusing their little girl. In the the end there was no proof, the child was examined repeatedly. he was examined by doctors, therapist, family services , and yes a hanging criminal charge until it was proven otherwise. The sister worked her lies on the child all her life and never had a relationship with his daughter. Always worried about the next lie.

          This sister does nothing but tell lies about people and cause mischief. She projects all her sick minded thinking onto others, (victims)? The children will become pawns (victims) of the ruthless CDN.

          You be very careful Gee, if you got this far and you lose your resolve and this is you last stand, if you go back I will tell you and I am going to be very blunt. If you go back there she is out for the kill, she is waiting and I can guarantee she will say and do anything to get you back in her clutches, she will use family, friends ministers, anyone to get you back where she will be back in control.

          Anyone that voices what you have knows deep down in your gut that is churning what she is. Once she gets you back she will determine the prison walls to keep you where you need to be in order for this not to happen again. BLUNT! Prepare for any amount of manhood to be severed prepare for your “castration.” If this doesn’t scare you then you can’t be helped. For us women it the metal lobotomy. I have written of this before.

          Prepare and don’t dispair at least you have your life yet. These are sick rabid dogs not the sick puppies we thought we were nursing. Anyone that thinks different is a fool.

          1. For you other posters that have the audacity to come here and pass judgement Shame on you! There are several people on the precipices of holding onto their very souls. You may have the CD I have to deal with. I in no way had any hand in creating the monsters in my family and their are ones that wouldn’t think twice of taking what you have and throwing you under a car or the ravine after sacking your body and victimizing you.

            Am I different you bet I am I am compassionate and care for 2 of my disabled family members, mom elderly and sister a paraplegic. My mother always says you are my only child that I can trust and I have proven myself over and over. Why am I different then them
            ITS A CHOICE!!!!!!!!!
            Are we victimized by these individuals YES I would like to hear your words for this other than victim. And BTW I would be most glad and relieved if you would like to deal with the CD I have for a month and see if your still around and how you feel.

            Apparently you have never dealt and have lived with a real CD, come here and do your forgiving of the CD and pray for them like I do but you have no right to throw anymore blame on anyone here and it is blaming the victim again.

            This dear ones is the last place, OUR PLACE OF REFUGE from having survived these evil ones and they are evil and the Lord tells us to get away from them. Apparently, you haven’t read the posts throughout this blog. The people who have come here on their last leg of hope and found acceptance and validation. And most in the end moved on to be better productive individuals that are now educated to what and who the CD are and help others.

            I would suggest you go search out some of these woe begotten CD like the ones we have and after you have been used and abused and your mind intruded by the ultimate MF then you come back here and we will all welcome you with open arms and helping hand to validate your experience of being vitimized.

            Blessings and I pray you never go through what we did.

        3. Actually I would say that CD’s get the best deal in court. They are not above anything in order to feel as if they have beat you.
          If able to they will continue their campaign until they move on to someone else. Even then at times the new significant other becomes just one more battering ram to use on you.

  10. I was listening to an interesting audio program today, recorded in 2014, A Field Guide to the Narcissist.
    The host interviews 2 people: Trevor Cole and Jeffrey Kluger. (Both have written about narcissisim).

    Kluger recently wrote a piece about Donald Trump.

    I found these interesting and wanted to share with others.

  11. Another thing, maybe you should go to the shelters and see some of these woman who claim to be the victims of our Generational Sin and explain their enabling conduct and then blaming the poor unfortunate narcissists. Go help them, they have no one, look at their faces with scares and broken bones.

    We are the bad ones we are the Enabler who played into the hands of the N because we were nice and giving and wanted to love and be loved. Forgetting all the lies they used to lure us in and use our emotions and our loving against us.

    Perhaps, you may need educate yourself because you can surely fall prey to one of these “poor mistreated narcissists, perhaps, you have only dealt with the pampered wallflower vain narcissists. You may not believe it but many of these stealth and predatory narcissists want you DEAD and many women and men have been murdered by these poor enabled narcissists. Are the dead Victims? Please tell me what are we then? I have individuals that want me dead, how did I enable someone to want me dead? Please tell us?

    1. Dr. Simon could you please do a future topic on this debate.. Great Topic

      To all the enlightened victims, you know the ones that post here with all the battle scars and gaping wounds. Perhaps, when ones that don’t understand and haven’t been there come here and insert there views we should ignore them.

      I have to deal on 3 fronts with these individuals today and I am somewhat taxed, I would welcome solitude and an end of drama. This will only happen when I put at least a 1000 miles of distance between. Would you like to help me out and enable me to have a better life. I was born into the the den of vipers, surely a good hearted individual would come forward to help me. But then the Oh, so poor narcissist, lets throw some more guilt on the innocent.


      1. OMG BTOV, strong stuff, i don’t understand though, i see a lot of support on this board.

        I admit i don’t have to deal with a Narc, but have been interested in the subject since school over 35 years ago, so i am here for a different reason than the rest of you, hope this doesn’t offend.

        For the record i regard them as SO strange they are like a sub species to me!

        1. You are welcome here, Jackie. It’s good to want to know and even better to know. Never underestimate the power of educating yourself – about dangerous people, protecting yourself, logical fallacies or anything else.

          1. Hi Timothy, thank you for this, i was a little worried that i was intruding on people’s privacy as this is really a place to vent and get support and be validated by other people who also have personal experience of these creatures that look human, but are essentially walking, talking shells that appear to have no true self.

            It appears that they only come alive when annihilating others, then go back to a default, blank state, it’s completely perplexing.

            Thank you again Tim:)

        2. And just for the record, Jackie, I’m here for pretty similar reasons. I have gotten manipulated and found myself buying into clever-sounding internal logic of BS and been mistaken about what kinds of people people are, but still, I can’t say I have anywhere near the same level of experience as many here do.

          1. Isn’t that right, yes, you learn the most from places like this where people have lived the experience. Thank god for the internet where others can share what they have gone through, it’s saved many a person’s sanity i bet.

      2. Well said, BTOV.

        As far as the commenter Deb said: “I don’t see the “them vs us” dynamic helpful. There seems to be a presumption that the “narcissists out there” are evil, troubled, unempathic souls whose behaviour leads to all the problems in the world, whereas “we who are not narcissistic” are beautiful, wonderful, terrific people who exhibit moral insight and wisdom and have never caused any problems for anybody whatsoever”

        — Deb, this is not acceptable here, to caricature us thus. Please tread more carefully — an abuser/target is NOT a symmetrical relationship, and we’ve gotten plenty of nonsense like this out there in the world. This is our space. Please respect it.

    2. Thank you for getting your voice out here.

      It absolutely pays to remember that there are obnoxious difficult people and then there are these personality and character disordered people with differing levels of disturbed, especially severely pathological ones. And then there are those otherwise functional in other aspects of psyche, but severely pathological in having drank their own self-esteem Kool-Aid.

      Knowing different kinds of patterns in personality is important, so as to know what you’re in for when someone like that crosses your path.

      Hard though as it may be to say what kinds of people are the worst, no one, no one wants to be killed. It’s horrible that to have someone after you no matter who it is.

      I’d go so far as to suggest learning some kinds of tricks to protect oneself even if one ain’t in a dangerous situation.

    3. BTOV

      Thanks for that commentary. I felt it, wanted to scream VICTIM, WTF you talking about? You said it like it is.

      1. BTOV
        But I have enough anger, and one post really got me worked up, the post about the playing the victim to the poor poor narc. I had to quit reading it. I was pissed. So – thanks for taking the time out to post. You pretty much said it for me.

      2. See, first of all in society today we don’t have the right to be angry and we have to all be PC. The narcissist is a slippery side winding deceitful menace to society and everything they touch is harmed and they don’t have to be politically correct. Read your bible Miss, Satan was the ultimate Narcissist. Even if you don’t believe in the bible I believe the message speaks volumes in sheer simplicity and truth instead of the several thousand dollar library I amassed reading and studying the great doctors on this subject.

        The CDN only intent is to self serve and create more of their procreated ALIEN MIND RAPERS or someone to care for them. If they don’t succeed in destroying you depending on how strong you are LOOK OUT. Because Wala … the over compassionate are born, the CD’s ultimate food of choice and unless the prey can find answers and support the prey are used and thrown by the wayside. Just an enabler not a victim.

        Because I am compassionate and caring I am labeled an enabler with all the distasteful connotations it brings up and makes the CDN causing the havoc be able to unload more of his toxic waste unto me because society then blames me that I helped them to be the way they are and now the poor miscreant can cry victim and I am the bad guy “The Enable.” Completely turning the tables and I am the blame, the fault why they are who they are. THAT IS A BALD FACE LIE! Perhaps I should wear a sign stating beware poor narcissist one of those Bad Enablers is lurking to cause you ill will and rape your mind.

        I am upset of whom I have to deal with, and to dump more on me how dare you and I will fight to the bitter end on this one. Compassion goes to my sister and mother who were victims yes victims not enablers of the these life sucking Alien bloodsuckers. If anything, thinking like yours is what helps protect these individuals and they are evil.

        Now I have an understanding of the garden variety and perhaps you are the garden child dishing off the ice cream and lurking behind the slithery terms of enabler to rid yourself of your cess hole or perhaps your guilt of knowing you created one of these monsters. Perhaps like the mother that will protect her CD criminal child at any cost even though they committed murder and blamed the victim or anyone except the true criminal who is totally responsible for their actions.

        Who came up with this perverted term that shifts the blame onto innocent people, anything, anyone but them. The term as far as I am concerned is just another money making label to now draw dependency and on more counselors that don’t do a heap of good or know anything except to throw terms around and their title.

        What I really appreciated is that Dr. Simon takes the bull by the horns and tells it like it is, no candy coating, no blame shifting, none of these long winded internal psych excuses even though there is credible evidence of how this is developed which doesn’t really matter at this point but the extreme damage they are causing to innocent others.

        I am not done with this either, I have been silent to long and the experience that I have speaks volumes and so does all the input from everyone else here.

        I would like to hear what you Miss Deb would have to say if it was your mother, father, sister, brother and especially your child ( a good child) that got taken in by one of these smooth talking, cunning individual, said all the right things, did all the right things, got hooked up, married to, had a grandchild maybe several, would you then correct them on their deficits and put them in the box of the enabler, I think not.

        I have had these individuals in my life since I can remember, and I am not a victim, what is an innocent babe an enabler. I will never justify my trying to make things work, you can take the enabler term and flush it down the toilet with all the gobbledegook and get to the facts.

        IT IS A CHOICE, A CHOICE BY THE CD TO BE WHO THEY ARE! They are users and they look for victims to exploit, use and hurt. Perhaps, if more emphasis was put on the needs of helping the victims and supporting them instead of rewarding these sick and I say it is evil, because there is unequivocal intent by the narcissistic perpetrator to harm. What about all the innocent children all the children they seem to have been forgotten. Now the cycle continues because we blame shift.

        Dear Miss I have forgiven the ones that have aggressed against me and I pray for them in fact I put them on every prayer list I can. But the Lord says get away from them and not to cast your pearls to swine. Its not me judging they will stand in judgement one day before their creator. I have many specks in my eyes to clean maybe a board or two, and I am continually working on myself but God clearly tells about these people and I am taking his wisdom.

        On this site there is love, compassion, sharing, camaraderie, support, validation, smiles, joy and peace and hugs and so much more. A beacon of hope and understanding in the mire of dealing with the CD Alien Mind Raper. If you think it doesn’t take time to respond to someone desperately calling out for help and to give of yourself you are very deluded. If you think we don’t care about others and carry the pain, hurts, humiliation, sadness of the ones that post here you are seriously mistaken, we know we have walked in their shoes. If you think we don’t wonder how someone is doing when they don’t post again and wonder if they are OK you are wrong.

        I care about people, I always will, we live what we learn and as the goal is taking back our lives and others one at a time that is a wonderful blessing.

        Jackie, I am glad you are here and please learn all you can we need all the help and understanding we can get. Deb you are welcomed too, but remember this is our sanctuary our refuge in mans world and hopefully from the CD for a short time in space.

        Blessings to all

        1. Hi BTOV,

          Thank you, it IS appreciated! It is true about the dynamics of a relationship with these strange, dark beings, i hesitate to put ‘human’ in front of the word being in their case because i don’t really regard them as having gone through the same development as the rest of us.

          It goes WAY beyond someone who is damaged, or has mental illness, these people are normally in deep distress but Narcs and Psychopaths (and sometimes there is the thinnest of lines between the two) don’t have any distress it seems; i remember a quote from the Clinician J Reid Meloy saying that Malignant Narcs do not get depressed, instead they enter what he called a ‘zero point’, where they become a blank while they gather strength, normally after a massive personal defeat.

          What the HELL!!!!!!!! This is why i say they are NOT like the rest of us.

          Two things that crop up here that i read elsewhere many times, the blank stare, and a feeling of evil, it’s so endemic it must be a real experience and not the imagination of the person seeing/feeling this.

          No BTOV, i believe you and other people here, it must feel like repeated violation by an octopus intent to leave you as dry as a husk, but behaving SO normally, even charming, in front of others that no one believes you.

          1. Jackie,
            There have been many that have visited here and have been active in our discussions that have not been victimized by a CDN and I am glad and then we have had some drama crying, whining CD and Dr. Simon deals them. It was the content of the unfeeling nature of the comment that set off bells on the red flag alert with me.

            Thanks for mentioning Meloy, I have not read any of his works. I must say I googled his name immediately and he has written several books. If you don’t mind my asking was it from a lecture or from his first book on psychopathy he wrote. Regardless, of what I have been through I find the mind fascinating.

            So much gets lost in the threads, we need to make sure Timothy knows about this Dr. and his writings. Timothy is always interested in new information and books, he is an avid reader. Again, thank you and you are welcomed. I hope we can encourage and learn from each other.

    4. BTOV raises a topic that has interested me: domestic violence, and why do some abused women go back to their abusers? This topic also touches on what Deb has brought up, that in discussing the character disturbed, we shouldn’t narrow it to: us vs. them, good vs. evil. Human relationships are much more complex than that, and there are at least two people in every relationship.

      I will share a story of a person who had the opportunity to leave her abuser, took the offered help of our mutual friend only so far, and then went back to the abuser. After thinking about it, I concluded that there must be something provided by that relationship that is worth the abuse. And for that woman, it turned out to be the lifestyle, not the guy. She is addicted to drugs and alcohol. The guy provides shelter, food, and money so that she doesn’t have to work and can afford to drink and do drugs and follow her lifestyle of choice. For her, the guy is just a means to her own ends, he’s a tool. That doesn’t excuse his abusive behaviours. But her behaviour and contribution to the dynamic can’t be ignored. Fortunately they have no kids.

      1. Anne,

        There are many dynamics at play here and Lundy Bancroft in Why Does he Do That has been instrumental in shedding light on this and so many have commented on Lundy and Dr. Simon writing a book There are so many more reasons then the one you just mentioned. The example you give reminds me of two who serve a purpose of more I would say parasitizing off each other and have partying company.

        Many of these women/men come from such dysfunctional backgrounds and they are drawn many times to the familiar.
        But do not underestimate the women/men that come from good solid homes.
        Another, is a fear of abandonment.
        Many do not have families or anyone to help them.
        Others, with children have no where to go. Money a big factor where children are involved. So many reasons in the familial sense.
        For many they are safer not leaving vs the danger once they decide to go.
        Many for economic reasons, children, aging parents, physical handicaps, health issues.
        The unreported statistics of men in these relationships that fear the societal rejection and embarrasment and they are good men.
        Plainly many of us took our marriage vows with the oath we give when we marry.
        So many variables.

  12. And when my friends tell me they feel bad for the STBX I want to shake them and say why feel badly for someone who is constantly trying to rip me apart? If you want to feel bad for someone feel bad for me!

    1. Jackie, it means soon-to-be-ex.

      And Lucy, yes, some folks are just looking for excuses to fight. That needs to be seen for what it is. Anything goes for such a person.

      1. Thanks Timothy, i sort of know about 50% of internet speak lol, and there are new terms coming out all the time:)

    2. Lucy, Gee,

      Thats an indicator to button up, at this point anything can be used against you. If you say nothing, you will know you said nothing. Be ever so careful, a friend one day can very easily become your enemy the next day. Also, the friends, mutuals friends, acquaintances, family will start to divide. Until its done don’t trust anyone. Perhaps, mom. (Hugs) Remember your on camera and so many of the telephones record. Careful!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      If you read this Gee, remember this at all times. If you don’t say anything there is nothing!

        1. Lucy,
          Now everyones words of wisdom here is free. Zip the Zip, my ear is free, I offered. It makes my spirit soar to see another set free from bondage from the CD. When one prevails we all prevail. Your up late.

      1. Lucy, and Gee

        I will tell you a very interesting thing about the CD criminal mind, it is always planning how not to take responsibility for their corruptness and victimization of the innocent. I knew and individual that refused to sign as little as possible, put everything in others names unless it was money or something that benefited them. The CDN tend to always talk in the third party, therefore, they can deny relationship to or responsibility for and can very easily attach blame to anyone but themselves. Careful!!!!!!!!

        Gee, is this friend or family member you are trying to help are THEY near you or did you say THEY are several miles from you. Is this the Man you said is a friend of a friend? Is his name That Guy or YOU NO WHO. Its nice you take an interest in trying to help these people or is this the guy named Fearless Fred.

        I apologize I have been to the doctor yesterday and was it painful, still hurting today and have to go back tomorrow. Two to three times a week for the next 6 weeks, hopefully, will have some good results. My thoughts with you LisaO, hope you are well. Look forward to you posts!

          1. Lucy,

            Yep. Am doing really well. Thanks for caring! I’m long past the P trauma and mending family ties now. So, it’s all good.

            I’ve been absent for awhile due to some drawn out complex business transactions, I have had to initiate and complete myself.

            Since my husband died, I have gone from not paying a bill for twenty years, to taking over his partnership in company. It’s not very hands on — pretty simple, but still…I also have to manage all the detailed financials at home.

            These last few weeks have been so challenging that I talked to my guides, angels, Jesus….whoever would listen and asked for strength to get through it all, not just for my sake but for all of the people I’ve had to deal with through this latest difficult but rewarding time.

            My worst flaw is how I present when I am afraid, anxious. I seem angry. So every time I got anxious, I would try to relax as much as I could and if I was beyond that point, I would just tell people that the situation was making me anxious, but they were doing a wonderful job and thanked them profusely.

            I truly marvel at people, like customer reps, who have to deal with frustrated angry people all day and do it kindly and gracefully. Wow. As far as I am concerned, they are the ascended masters. Mahatma Ghandi…wonderful guy…but he didn’t have to work at a call center in India!! Nor was he an underpaid but highly skilled bank employee!

            I don’t know why I am mentioning this, maybe because since reading Dr. Simeon’s articles and the many astute observations from everyone here, it is to express gratitude. I have taken pause and am looking at my own failings carefully, and am addressing them. I don’t think I have a CD, but know I have character flaws and want to be rid of them before I die.

  13. I tried to post some links the other day. My post never got posted, maybe because of the links.

    so I will try again without the links:

    Trevor Cole is an author and he wrote a novel about growing up with a narcissistic father. There is a link on his website to a radio program where he is interviewed along with another writer Jeffrey Kluger, a science writer, who has written a book about narcissicism. I haven’t read either book, but the radio program was interesting. It’s from 2014. Kluger explains why narcissists will forever be among us. Some of what he says is in line with what Dr. Simon has written about, e.g. that narcissism exists along a continuum.

  14. BYOV
    I’m so glad you are here posting. I fully understand your viewpoints. I have one experience to share that sums up how twisted and mind fucking these people can be
    While in a counseling session – the subject being husband’s infidelity ( at the time thinkingnitnwasbwith one girl – later to find out numerous prostitutes) husband says to me “you need to figure out why your husband would turn to a prostitute!” Meaning I was less of a woman and it drove him to infidelity. What a mean loser lying scumbag to say that to me – to put me down and blame me for his use of prostitites. That is how far gone some of these narc, CD aggressive personalities can be. Disgusting.

      1. Lucy, i have heard that by the time they go into their ‘devaluing’ stage with their main victim, they already have one or even several other ‘partners’ lined up to start the process all over again.

        1. Jackie,

          I actually think he truly hates women. He uses the prostitutes to service him. He could not be intimate with me – his thing wouldn’t work. Deep deep issues that man has.

          1. Lucy,
            There is a time and place for Zippers, snaps and buttons. Eye hooks and loosely sewn on buttons can ruin the whole garment if we can’t find the original or lose if because we didn’t take the time to sew it shut. A seam we thought we only saw on turning the wrong way can rip the whole garment wide open.

            I thought you were telling me about about an acquaintance named Sadness that had this deviant jerk going through a D, is this the one you are talking about or is it that lady named loose ships sink ships, or is this Zippy? I know your D was several years back. Careful the ice is thin on the Great Lakes right now and treacherous, on can be drowning before one knows it.

  15. BTOV,

    I am replying here because there was no reply button under your post, the quote from J. Reid Meloy came from his book The Psychopathic Mind, it deals with criminal cases but there is a much broader picture written about these people within that you can learn about. The second book i have by him is called The Mark of Cain.

    In the Psychopathic mind, he mentions features of the ‘patient’ that contraindicate ANY attempt at treat thus:

    Sadistic aggressive behaviour in the patients history that resulted in serious injury, maiming or death to the victim.

    A complete absence of any remorse, justification or rationalization for such behaviour.

    Intelligence great than or less than two standard deviations from the mean, this would place the individual in the very superior or mildly mentally retarded range of general intelligence. (this would be around 135 at the upper end, i’m guessing)

    A historical absence of any capacity, or inclination, to form a bond or an emotional attachment to another person.

    An atavistic fear of predation felt by experienced clinicians when in the patients presence without any overt behaviour precipitating such a countertransference reaction.

    He talks about pseudo states, where the Psychopath imitates feeling states using words and body and facial expressions either consciously or even unconsciously .

    He mention sadistic behavior, sadistic cycles, this can be very subtle.

    That damn book gave me nightmares, he considers that if someone is a ‘Malignant Narcissist’, meaning a Narcissist that thrives on harming others, a Psychopath.

    After hearing all these stories, these poor people here who have suffered immeasurably at the hands of these ‘freaks’, i am wrestling with the thought, where does the line cross over into Psychopathy?

    1. Just an add on, Meloy says that ‘if you take the Narcissist out of a Psychopath, you don’t have a Psychopath’.

      1. Jackie the view is all psychopaths are narcissists however, all narcissists are not psychopaths. Correct me if I am wrong. Will respond later to your post and mayor. Thanks for the helpful inputs and you are welcomed here you innocently got caught in the middle by mistake. In fact the only one that upset me was Missy. And I have had more thoughts on that too.

        Too all have a blessed day I hope our lucy and Geewise have a lighter day.

        1. Hi BTOV,

          Once again many thanks for the reassurance, it’s appreciated especially since you all have quite enough to deal with:)

          Yes indeed that is the standard viewpoint, i question this in regards to some of the people described here, it’s the level of malignancy involved, the effects of these destroyers of goodness is absolutely devastating to read.

          White collar Psychopaths (see the book Snakes in Suits by Robert Hare and Paul Babiak) don’t physically harm anyone, but their actions ruin lives.

          In other words, Malignancy isn’t measured by how likely a Narcissist is going to physically hurt someone, the danger is the hurricane that still leaves a big hole.

          1. To all an addition to yesterdays discussion,

            I have dealt with chronic pain a good portion of my life and any pain I can eliminate or lesson is a blessing. Coming home yesterday and looking for something to read I came across a book not yet read.
            Title More Psychopaths and Love by AB ADMIN

            Chapter 1. The Real Reason You Were Victimized By a Psychopath and I include Narcissist.

            You were duped, and you paid dearly. You lost time. You lost faith in others and yourself. You experienced unimaginable grief. Its a story that will always be part of your life.

            But this story is not a story of your flaws, weaknesses, or mistakes. You didn’t make mistakes, You believed in people. You trusted people to be a decent inside as you are. You trusted people to be as capable of love as you are. It is actually a story of your best qualities.

            Shame is not your burden to carry. Neither is blame form others or from yourself… What is there to feel shame for? Being a decent, loving and trusting human being? What is there to be blamed for? Being victimized by a predator, one who presented himself as being the same way?

            The psychopath/narcissist is the only one who deserves shame and blame.

            Psychopaths and narcissists target the best people. It was our best qualities –our ability to give and receive love, to trust another enough to be intimate and vulnerable, to believe in the goodness of another —- that enabled them to victimize us. They clearly saw these qualities in us. Within those very qualities you find the psychopaths/narcissists motives of envy, spite, and contempt. Within those very qualities you find the psychopaths/narcissists ability to victimize. That can’t be justified. No matter what. You cannot and did not cause this to happen to yourself. It is beyond the realm of explainable or acceptable human behavior. It can never be justified.

            Something unimaginable, something unknown and unexpected entered our lives. A depraved imitation of a human took advantage of you, lied to you, manipulated you, used you and devalued you. Nobody ever brings that on themselves. It didn’t happen because of some fault or flaw or weakness in you — it happened because of all that is good in you, and because a warped mind took that goodness and twisted it for its own sick purpose.

            The truth can be hard to understand.

            I once heard the greatest gift you can give someone is the gift of being understood. Understanding is a gift….and it is one you can and should give to yourself.

            Knowing why and how it happened brings understanding. With that understanding comes the recognition that you were not the one who was responsible, and the recognition that you are worthy of holding yourself in high esteem and deserving of all that is good and decent.

            Chapter 8 Do You Make This Simple But (Dangerous Mistake) About the Psychopathic mind? (I include CDNP)

            – Dr. George Simon-
            “Misinterpreting the behavior of a disordered character is the first step in the process of being victimized by them.”

          2. Jackie,

            Snakes in Suits, an excellent book. I believe you are technically right, but I wonder when you get into the sub-spicies for lack of a better term what slithering morph is mutating under a rock we haven’t had the chance to examine since they are so elusive. The few they have been able to study and articulate their inner landscape is rather erie in there seems to be a split in their personality or is it their soul? Unchartered waters with so little evidence to be conclusive.

            They also know they are different. Have you ever noticed any of them referring to themselves as “pure” and “special.” People of the Lie by Dr. Scott Peck.

      1. BTOV
        That post was beautiful. I needed to hear it, how a CD takes the kindness and uses it to harm us, to his benefit. Our good qualities are his/her target. During a counseling session my STBX said (my name) will believe anyone. We looked at each other and I knew right then he had taken my trust and used it to his advantage – and he knew I knew. Bastard

  16. Jackie,

    Please stay with us, you are not intruding.

    For many of us it is extremely rare that we have been offered any understanding, communication or validation from others who are on the outside. You believe us and are willing to share with us and talk to us. This is not common with in our own families, our friends or others. For many there is no one from the outside who cares.

    When someone is willing to roll up their sleeves and get down in the trenches with us – it means the world.

    Thank you!

    1. Oh Lucy,

      Your message made me cry a little bit, i had to get that toilet roll i mentioned earlier lol!

      To me it’s shocking that you find it a struggle for validation, it’s a well know fact that these creatures exist, i can only surmise that it makes others uncomfortable and they worry about becoming tainted; my partner and me had this a bit with our Autistic son, people that were always ok with us avoided us once it was apparant that he was Autistic. The majority have been great though, thankfully.

      If i may say about the family and friends, could it be possible that the Narc has ‘worked’ on them in his/her favour? I have heard they work tirelessly for their own self image, 25 hours a bloody day!

      I will try and give support all i can, let you know of good books and youtubers that, like yourselves, have lived through this, there is a howl coming from all of you, and it’s consistent.

      The same things crop up again and again in the telling, the blank stares, the hoovering, gaslighting, triangulation, the mourning of a relationship that wasen’t real, and most distressing of all, the screaming, you won’t believe how often i have read about the victim ending up screaming.

      It’s deeply upsetting, i wish i could give you all a big, big hug XX.

      Ans THAT’S why i too believe they are EVIL!

      1. When he said that about looking at myself as a reason he would be with someone else – our marriage was so broken in so many ways that I did think he gave up on me and turned to someone else. Now that I know the real truth about him and all the sleazy corrupt things he’s done, I think back to him saying that to me and realize he is a pitiful soulless mean monster. To put that on me – shameful. I hate him

        1. Lucy,

          Think of it like this, he doesn’t have the inner capabilities to feel, understand, enjoy, and experience the rich and wonderful tapestry of human interaction, and he knows you do, so in addition to envying you for his inability to enjoy life, he will NEVER be happy.

          He knows this also.

          Your pain will lessen, but he is STUCK with his condition.

          1. I’d much rather be me, a good person, having been wrong than he who lives his life totally wrong and miserably. He’s stuck with himself, fully tainted. My life is good – without him in it

  17. Deb,

    Misquoting Bible verses out of context does harm to others.

    The Bible is full of warnings for good people to stay away from bad people – here’s a few for you to ponder…..

    “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away” (2 Tim. 3:1-5 NKJV)
    “Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man you shall not go: Lest you learn his ways, and get a snare to your soul.” (Proverbs 22:24-25)
    “A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions.” (Proverbs 27:12 NLT).

    “Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.” (1 Peter 5:8)

    “I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.” (Acts 20:29)

    “A man of great anger will bear the penalty, For if you rescue him, you will only have to do it again.” (Proverbs 19:19 NASB)

    Deb did you notice the warning in the first verse, “And from such people turn away” Turn away means to remove yourself from their presence, stay away from such people, run as fast as you can.

    1. To all an addition to yesterdays discussion,

      I have dealt with chronic pain a good portion of my life and any pain I can eliminate or lesson is a blessing. Coming home yesterday and looking for something to read I came across a book not yet read.
      Title More Psychopaths and Love by AB ADMIN

      Chapter 1. The Real Reason You Were Victimized By a Psychopath and I include Narcissist.

      You were duped, and you paid dearly. You lost time. You lost faith in others and yourself. You experienced unimaginable grief. Its a story that will always be part of your life.

      But this story is not a story of your flaws, weaknesses, or mistakes. You didn’t make mistakes, You believed in people. You trusted people to be a decent inside as you are. You trusted people to be as capable of love as you are. It is actually a story of your best qualities.

      Shame is not your burden to carry. Neither is blame form others or from yourself… What is there to feel shame for? Being a decent, loving and trusting human being? What is there to be blamed for? Being victimized by a predator, one who presented himself as being the same way?

      The psychopath/narcissist is the only one who deserves shame and blame.

      Psychopaths and narcissists target the best people. It was our best qualities –our ability to give and receive love, to trust another enough to be intimate and vulnerable, to believe in the goodness of another —- that enabled them to victimize us. They clearly saw these qualities in us. Within those very qualities you find the psychopaths/narcissists motives of envy, spite, and contempt. Within those very qualities you find the psychopaths/narcissists ability to victimize. That can’t be justified. No matter what. You cannot and did not cause this to happen to yourself. It is beyond the realm of explainable or acceptable human behavior. It can never be justified.

      Something unimaginable, something unknown and unexpected entered our lives. A depraved imitation of a human took advantage of you, lied to you, manipulated you, used you and devalued you. Nobody ever brings that on themselves. It didn’t happen because of some fault or flaw or weakness in you — it happened because of all that is good in you, and because a warped mind took that goodness and twisted it for its own sick purpose.

      The truth can be hard to understand.

      I once heard the greatest gift you can give someone is the gift of being understood. Understanding is a gift….and it is one you can and should give to yourself.

      Knowing why and how it happened brings understanding. With that understanding comes the recognition that you were not the one who was responsible, and the recognition that you are worthy of holding yourself in high esteem and deserving of all that is good and decent.

      Chapter 8 Do You Make This Simple But (Dangerous Mistake) About the Psychopathic mind? (I include CDNP)

      – Dr. George Simon-
      “Misinterpreting the behavior of a disordered character is the first step in the process of being victimized by them.”

      1. I cannot comment why a disordered person would want one partner over another for any but myself.

        I think that I had certain qualities over and above a need to be overly responsibly, quick to give loyalty, and also overly work related.

        1. I know a lot about law and the processes that go to winning your point. He liked to fight people on all sorts of levels. In the beginning I took that as a compliment that he saw my abilities. In time I realized that he was using them for his own benefit and did not account for my time and my life continuingly fighting for some “injustice” he felt he had been handed.

        2. Although I did not come from money, I did come from generations of educated, upper middle class and that I have a talent for being able to walk among those of higher social classes. He did not have that ability and found it very beneficial to him when we were moving in social circles.

        3. I am very good at investing, saving and making our life together financially strong. He is terrible with money, very into instant gratification, and likes very much the bells and whistles that come from money (although I do not pay retail for ANYTHING). If the deal is no at least 80% off I walk away or wait for it to become so.

        4. I took care of all the mundane chores of life. From cleaning to bill paying to walking the dog, to cleaning up messes to cooking and cleaning etc etc etc. It was the hardest job I have every had. I had no time for me since from morning to the end of the day I could not stop. I now look back and see just what an unclean, untidy, goes out of his way to make a mess just so I have to clean it up. I swear, I really think that he enjoyed making messes just so he could watch me clean it up!

        5. I was also, and still am, although I am now walking into my senior years a good looking, slim, well educated and articulate woman. What could be wrong with that. He on the other hand was terribly obese and would wear the same socks for days if I did not set his clothes out for him.

        So not only did he get a servant, a legal person, a gourmet cook, a person that was very good with money, I also was found to be attractive to the opposite sex.

        So why wouldn’t he want to be married. Now, if I were just like him I think he would have run like hell after he figured out he had married someone just like him. Someone remarked who would know these things…he is jealous of you. I couldn’t fathom it at the time. But I can now.


        1. Theresa K
          You would be a great friend to have. The husband was not worthy of you. Marriage -it can be so confusing. We didn’t (we do now) know whether to keep trying or to let it go.

        2. Wow,
          You could have been writing my life. By the way was he always over weight or did it happen after you were married? I only ask because my ex gained over a 180lbs during our marriage.

          1. Lucy and E,

            In answer to the ex’s weight issue. When we married again (yes, I married him twice) he was 45 and I was 50. He had a weight issue when we married but he always did. Maybe 20 pounds over weight.

            I used to buy a lot of cheese (the good stuff) to add to soups and sauces and such so I would just freeze it when I loaded up with sales.

            I came down to the kitchen one night and there he was, him and the dog, eating frozen cheese from the freezer. I finally understood where all the cheese was going and why, with the healthy meals I made he consistently was gaining more and more weight. By the time I finally left he was grossly over weight. Now, he is grossly under weight at 6’2″ @ 155 pds through weight watchers. Ruined his looks. I began to believe he had an eating disorder. But that is not my problem now.

            As far as the other issue from another poster on the fact that we did not have sex for the last 5 years of our marriage due to erectile disfunction for reasons I do not know. He told me he did not find me attractive and so no sex. Then he later denied that he ever said that. Which was part and parcel to other denials.

            He was into porn big time. When he went on contract jobs I had to arrange to have certain books sent to him. And I am talking A LOT of books. The had to go by movers.

            When he was to come home I would fly out and pack all the books for shipment home. Then I would arrive home and the books would follow. I was instructed to repack them by the ex. So I did and found to my amazement and horror that one box was full of porn magazines, not soft porn like Playboy, not even like Hustler. These were serious, in your face, raunchy porn.

            I know he wanted me to see what he did in his free time. What he got out of introducing me to his interests in the raunchy porn is just not imaginable to me. But it hurt me and it made me sick to see what he was in to. I guess that was the reason if he ever really thought it out. I have no idea, I just know he intended me to find them.

            Shock value? Who knows.

            Theresa Maria

            Theresa Maria

      2. BTOV,


        That’s what i believe!

        They are destroyers of good, because they do not understand it, envy it, hate it!

        To quote Meloy again “After the Psychopath/Narcissist has destroyed the victim, ‘I cannot have them”, turns into “They weren’t worth having”.

        In Pseudo identification, they mimic others in order to fool, in a more permanent effort, they ‘graft’ onto themselves aspects of people they want to be like, it’s like Frankenstein’s monster desperatly trying to make themselves whole from a human jigsaw puzzle, without understanding the much deeper processes involved in BEING a human entity.

        This is only touching the surface of just how strange they are.

        So different are they, that i bet each of you are going through PTSD because of the aftershock.

          1. Many times we are so full of emotions they are coming from us in all directions. We don’t know if we are rightside upinside out and if it is even us who is residing in us we are filled with such grief, hurt, betralal and so much more. We are knocked off kilter, will we ever gain our balance and become whole.

            In all dealing with the CD and the underhanded low blows, we can feel obliged in order to disperse our hurts and anger to act in ways and say things we normally ever would not thought possible. The CD also have a way of goading us in acting ways conducive to their mantras. We feed into their hands when we let actions and words come from us that bring us to their level. Many times we are so dazed we don’t see ourselves in perspective. Many times it is a less embarrassing and cathartic cleansing, If we must purge, to use our private office.

        1. Haha. I actually had a few sessions of PTSD treatment during the few weeks I was trying to make the shorty marriage work. All I could envision of him when I looked at him was some skanky 20-something “girlfriend” of his going down on him. The treatment did not work. I was disgusted by him. Oh and angry. Have I mentioned anger?

          1. Lucy,

            Why am i not at all surprised about the PTSD treatment!

            Think of him on the toilet, always good for a laugh when you’re feeling upset:)

  18. BTOV, thanks for remembering I like to read. The instant I saw the mention of J Reid Meloy I got intrigued.

    I’m not sure what it does to try to analyze a psychopath psychoanalytically like Mark of Cain seems to aim to. It’s a radical different human type down to the core! No, I haven’t read Mark of Cain. Does Meloy see psychopaths as wounded individuals or does he actually try to understand their underpinnings without the usual distortions Dr Simon so often warns about?

    I took a look inside the contents of The Psychology of Stalking(also by Meloy). Chapter 5 has such subchapter as “Antisocial and delusional psychodynamics: Threats and predation to control the love object as a defense(!!!) against psychological decompensation(?)”.

    Well, even if someone was very disturbed in many regards and they would decompensate under extreme stress(like some personality disorders?), does it make sense to think of them defensive? I believe I’ve seen some discussions here about this. Can it be psychological coping without being defensive? Can coping be dysfunctional without being defensive?

    I hope that you, Jackie, too, get motivated to read as much about different phenomena as just possible. Psychological phenomena can be so troubling sometimes, but they exist nonetheless.

    1. Timothy,
      I responded to the Millon Text book at the top of the page and suggested Stalked by the soul and Thriftbooks. Look for my post.

    2. Hi Timothy,

      In Meloy’s book Psychopathic Mind he talks about their earliest development, as an infant they do not develop a healthy ego, they identify all things as ‘soft me’ and ‘hard me’, they take on the identity of all things threatening to them, as a defence, so it transpires that the ‘soft me’ stops developing.

      This is when they are very small, 2 or three i’m guessing without referencing it directly.

      Adding to that he talks about their brains being radically different, with the older parts of the reptilian brain being a lot more dominant compared to the rest of us, so instinct, sex drive, aggression is paramount to their characters, and empathy, love, understanding, altruisim is weak or even absent.

      So he combines the two aspects, whatever happens to them when young, whether a fairly good upbringing or a terrible one, they will turn out to be frighteningly different.

      Meloy mentions Serial Killers who in some cases have had terrible things happens to them, it is his view that it is ALWAYS the characterological underpinning that is the driving force behind the crimes, and clinicians must realize it is ultimately their CHOICE to commit them.

      They were always going to be bag eggs, in other words.

      I believe Meloy is religious, and he likens them to that ‘morning star of evil’, that part gave me the chills. I’m sure that quote was in the Mark of Cain.

      Talking about Defense, in Robert Hare’s book Without Conscience, he says that parts of their brain simply cannot understand emotion in the same way we can, some feeling states are weak or even absent, so, if this is true, what are they defending against when injured as discussed by Meloy? Tim you touched upon the very question i have been asking for decades now.

      1. Jackie: “in Robert Hare’s book Without Conscience, he says that parts of their brain simply cannot understand emotion in the same way we can, some feeling states are weak or even absent”

        Mirror neurons?

        Misfiring of mirror neurons would explain the continuum of emotional quality and intensity.

        1. Lucy,

          Yes, mirror neurons have been cited as vital to understanding and empathizing with one another, but Narcs and Psychopaths are SO practiced at mimicry it really makes me wonder.

          There is also Temporal lobe abnormalities, corpus callosum defects, amygdala deficits, limbic defects in affective processing and so on.

          In other words a subspecies, maybe these aren’t defects but adaptations, or as some Drs surmise, throwbacks.

          1. Jackie,

            Mirror neurons provoke automatic and corresponding nerve and muscle responses, when we witness movement and other forms of expression, action in other beings.

            Many people think mirror neurons are involved primarily in empathetic emotional responses but I think it extends well beyond that.

            I know that the idea that psychopaths lack mirror neurons has been advanced as a theory. It’s also possible they may have more activated mirror neuron activity and that is what makes them such successful predators.

            Maybe they are able to engulf the entirety of the sensory experience, of their pray without sympathy or empathy.

      2. What’s really frightening about this is, will there come a time where there will be two recognized sets of standards for two sets of thinking minds. We don’t want to discriminate do we? Unfortunately, if so I am afraid they have more than the edge being the predators they are.

        1. BTOV: “will there come a time where there will be two recognized sets of standards for two sets of thinking minds.”

          We’re almost there – the bumper stickers read ‘embrace difference’.

          The past 30-40 years we’ve given them more leverage – we educated them.

          1. Suzi, and all of you
            This has been a very cathartic and educational Topic full of great posts. The CDNP Knows what he/she is doing. Its an addictive high they get. However, the longer the mind is stimulated with their drug of control to feed their pride the sicker they get.

            I truly, believe that many of these individuals can be rehabilitated, they need to humbled, I can guarantee you if the ones I dealt with had a severe injury and were dependent for care and yes, decency, they would and could change. There is a will of iron that refuses to acquiesce to a higher authority instead of their delusional self. What we see is the refusal to submit to a higher power, God, anything or anyone except themselves. They become sick at the thought of humility. They will sacrifice anything for their drug habit of feeding their pride!

            In the the end it will be: Humility or Humiliation

        2. Unfortunately, the Psyche profession may already be enabling them by either taking the position of Adrian Raine the Psychologist, who says that we all are complete passive victims of our brains, he studies Psychopaths and actually believes that there are enough mitigating factors within the brains of Psychopaths to absolve them of all responsibility for their crimes.

          Then you have the growing number of Clinicians who posit that the disorder may be an adaptation or throwback, chillingly, this last theory may well be true.

          1. Jackie,
            Thank you for all the info and insight, you have added so much. However, I am not buying into all the psychobabble and PC and acceptance of the CD regardless of any brain studies. I never am giving an inch to these sub-human, alien, nepheline, monsters because if you give and inch they will be in control and they almost are.

            Yes, Miss Deb, perhaps, is right it has come down to us against the CD, just look at this nasty, cutthroat, sinful world created by these depraved subhumans which is on the brink of no return. Yes, I helped make it because I was married to one of these manipulative, chameleon sub-humans.

            Jackie they can be very nice for longs periods of time, years, and Oh, so subtle. Did I create them because I am nice and caring.

            Now lets see, since its more advantages and oh……I should love to be oh soooooooo selfish, A SELFEE Yes, I am going to be a SELFEE!!!!
            Can and will my brain structure change too?

            Please Dr. Simon If all I do now is think of me, me, me and to (Hell) with everyone will my brain change and I can morph into one of them and feel no pain? Hmm….

            I know the ones I deal with could change and I know of people who’s turned their lives around after being humbled. I bet none of that info is in the studies.


  19. BTOV
    . “We feed into their hands when we let actions and words come from us that bring us to their level. “. I find myself saying horrible things when angry with y CD STBX – having horrible thoughts. I feel poisoned by him. I said some mean terribly hurtful things to him when I was busting with anger. My general nature is sensitive to others and empathetic and kind, but he brings out the beast in me. I don’t like myself being with him or even thinking of him. It’s all so negative and unhealthy. But this divorce – I cannot get away from issues with him

    1. I know, but if you don’t get a hold of yourself you will create more problems for yourself than you can imagine. I am trying to help you, if you must go in a closet turn up a radio and scream but you must get hold of yourself. Write till your hand cramps up and turns blue and then burn it. Anything, run around the block until your so exhausted and hurt all you want to do is pass out.

      1. Hi BTOV,

        Replying here as there isn’t a reply button under the pertinent post (again lol)

        There is actually a sinister agenda behind Adrian Raine’s studies, he has hinted that perhaps in the future they could scan problem people and if the brain imagery shows up as being less active in areas where Psychopaths have deficits they will ‘detain’ these people, even if they have committed no crimes.

        Sounds a hell of a lot like Clockwork Orange….

        Do i accept Dr Raine’s belief that they are not responsible? absolutely NOT!

        Do i accept that their brains ARE different, markedly so? YES!

        But they have choices, read on as to why this is key.

        If you have a Psychopath or Narcissist far along the continuum then current findings are that they CANNOT change.

        Therapy only makes them worse, because they learn to mimic change and get an understanding of where they were previously transparent in their behaviour, so they learn to ‘cover their tracks more thoroughly next time’.

        There is a prison programme devised by Robert Hare in Canadian prisons, they induce the Psychopath to modify their behaviour by explaining that it will continue to ruin their own lives by getting into trouble with the law, in other words appealing to their own self interest, which is already high.

        Treating them like Children really, which is what some of them are, encased in adult bodies.

        This has shown to have moderate success, but nothing can change the empathy deficits and core character traits of these people.

        Both Meloy and Hare feel that they have choices, these choices are deliberately made knowing full well the consequences, so no they are not giving them a free pass, far from it.

        Your CD chose you, he chose you knowing what he was going to do, they target the vulnerable, the needy, the empathic, the result was always going to be the same no matter what you did, short of leaving him very early on or killing him.

        They can be very sophisticated, only a card carrying idiot would say that you helped in his deception, yourself and others are helpless against a very clever, manipulative, sly actor posing as a human being.

        In all my years of reading and listening to Documentaries, youtubers and forums, not once have i blamed the victim, not once.

        And neither would Clinicians like Hare, Meloy and many many others that see in crystal clarity the monster behind the facade.

        Your last point concerning how the World is created by these walking reptoids, yes i believe Psychopaths/Malignant Narcissists are in control and always have been.

        You are angry, good! Use it wisely, it’s a mechanism designed to throw out and dissolve any baggage this walking turd has left you with, stay angry, you need it right now, then jettison it and heal when it no longer serves you.

        Live well is the best revenge…..

        I am on your side, always.

        1. Jackie
          Wow that some fine clinical insight. I am finally at the stage of anger, in the process Kubler Ross talks about. Not that angry, just thoroughly disgusted. I live with chronic pain and that is trying.

          What many don’t understand is we married so young, and all these things have first come to light. The N attached to me because I am strong, far stronger, and intelligent than he. He may have the predator instincts and is intelligent too, but I am a learner, a naive one but now fairly educated in this arena.

          I can say he mutated over time and the last thing I will do is teach him anything, yes the true predator sub-human blade runner will adapt depending on the intelligence and need to meld into the environment. There are tells though. I have been right the majority of the time and it is not good. They respect power and despise weakness. The answer is not to fear. Caution and good judgement but never fear.

          I plan to order the books you suggested, it seems to reflect the CD’s I am dealing with. The knowledge I have gleaned here and from sources has kept me one step ahead. Faith in God has been my saving grace.

          Thank you Jackie and everyone else I usually buy the suggested reading material. I’ll get the book LisaO suggested this time. Thanks


          1. BTOV,

            So sorry you are feeling pain, added to the fact you have to keep a sharp head on your shoulders and not feeling well is the last thing you need right now.

            Have you and others here thought about formal studies in this area, plus you all speak from personal experience? It would be cathartic for you, and give a much needed service to others only coming out from the fog.

        2. Jackie,

          I haven’t read Adrian Raine or heard of him before, but thanks for pointing out a very sinister agenda.

          Is the difference between The Clockwork Orange and George Orwell’s Big Brother -dystopia vision the matter of type or degree?

          1. Tim i hope i can reply now, i tried this Morning and every time i hit the reply button i got a 404, tried three times so fingers crossed.

            My feeling is that Adrian Raine’s agenda is just the beginning, start with people who are qualitatively different and already get a bad press, then spread out.

            Look at the medicalization of difference, more ‘conditions’ are being added to the lexicon of behavioural abnormalities, and by a perverse reversal, things that were rightly seen as strange a decade or two ago is now encouraged to be regarded as normal, it’s a tipsy topsy world.

            PC has gone way too far, certain groups are not to be critised, and you can actually face prison for doing so, at least in England where i’m from.

            Slowly, surely, while we are asleep, we do not notice the chains silently slithering around us.

            When will we wake up, to the sound of the padlock?

    2. Lucy, he wants to make you more like him, to reduce your abiity to fully enjoy life, vow that he will NOT win.

      The Emperor has no clothes, he is naked, think of yourself as the small boy in the crowd pointing and laughing.

      1. Good advice. I’m trying. I have no verbal contact. I have now very minimal email contact. So it is getting better. I am repulsed by him at this point. What is maddening is my attorney fees are killing me financially, all due to his BS tactics to win win win and take me down.

        1. Its not about winning, there are no winners. The only winners are the attorneys and all the parasites that attach to the misfortune of others. For the CD its about control and punishing. Its about they make the… control regardless how insanely ridiculous. Misery loves company and the children will be used for every sick maneuver to dictate.

          How do we ever get closure from these demons from hell? The courts help these individuals by allowing frivolous complaints and motions to dangle in the system. Remember it keeps the government machine working.

          1. But the CD hates to see their victims in triumph, nothing disturbs them more.

            Once Lucy is free of her fetid entanglement, the road in front of her is open to bright and shiny things, the CD CANNOT join her, and that’s what he detests.

            Something i’ve thought of, i wonder if there are any attorneys that are trained to understand the workings of the CD, now, wouldn’t THAT be interesting?

    3. Lucy,

      I couldn’t reply under your earlier post so am doing so here, it’s perfectly normal to feel anger, disgust, and confusion from your experience, don’t ever feel guilty about that.

      You will take some time to normalize, as said before i think some form of shock is involved also, victims are often shaken to their cores, leaving them unsure of who they are.

      If i may recommend Narcissism Support on YouTube, she is excellent, lots and lots of videos on who these ‘people’ are, she was involved with three Narcissists, all different.

      She mentions the screaming after everything has ended too.

      Please take a look.

      1. I will check out the you tube site. And I’ve also done the screaming. It’s like an animal was screaming inside me. It was pure anguish. It had to release.

        1. Lucy,

          Please do, everything is there, there will be so much that you recognize.

          She shared a story about one of her CD’s who she was living with, she started to feel unwell, every time she visited her Mother for a few days she started to feel better, (i bet you can guess what’s coming) went back, felt ill again, she was puzzled, and worried!

          Until one day a girlfriend said to her, “Have you thought of the possibility that he is poisoning you?”

          He was!

          She now feels he wanted her dead!

          No, these are monsters, so glad all of you are safe:) and i hope you have at least some friends and family that are there to support you.

          1. Poisoning, that is scary. I hope he’s in jail. Probably isn’t is my guess. I have a huge support of friends and family. I feel somewhat safe. The CD, though, started collecting guns a few years ago. I’ve actually target practiced with him in the past, as did a couple of his friends. But now, with two gun safes full of weapons, including assault weapon and sniper gun, I have a fear that he will “snap” and take it out on me. He’s under a lot of pressure. And when the Pandora’s Box opens in court, I’m concerned. Hopefully we get this divorce settled before then, but I don’t see that happening.

          2. I just finished watching that one. I’m still shocked that people actually go to these extremes to harm others. It happens a lot, it shouldn’t be so shocking, but It’s still hard for me to comprehend and the degree of evil in some people – my STBX included. I shouldn’t be shocked.

  20. For the record, Deb did not use the word “enable” in her posting that offended some people on here. Perhaps her posting implied that, but we each bring our own unique perspective to this site with which we interpret other’s comments. I try to cut the other person a bit of slack when reading comments, emails, texts because what I read may not be what they intended.

    Each of us has our own experiences and reasons for coming to this site about Manipulative People. Some discussions or topics interest me and some don’t. I found some of Deb’s questions worth discussing, but I doubt we will hear from her again.

    Since the topic of enabling was brought up, I want to comment on it, because it was something I came to realize, a moment of insight. In my ignorance, I enabled my CD partner to avoid the consequences of his choices and behaviours while I was in relationship with him. I did not make him who he is, nor am I responsible or to blame for his choices and behaviours. However, I became part of an unhealthy dynamic that harmed me, him and others. I finally took the exit. Now, I am learning to be more selective in my relationships with others, and what I do for others.

    1. I also want to say that my years with this narcissist were stressful and difficult. Some psychologists believe that intimate relationships help us to grow up, through the problems we encounter (check out David Schnarch). I certainly did. I feel so much stronger and wiser now. Ironically, I have the CD partner to thank for that.

      1. We all have so much in common it seems. I, too, see how my inactions added years to me staying married. Had I got on the ball, looked into my finances instead of asking the CD what they were, I’d have had a better grip on my reality in the marriage. I was conned. He was evasive, according to counselor, the MOST evasive client she’d ever encountered. I almost didn’t have a chance of knowing what really was going on. But, yeah, I could have and should have done much more regarding financials instead of assuming CD was taking care of things. And yes, I didn’t love him anymore, didn’t even like him the last few years, but yet I stayed. It was laziness on my part to get up the gumption to actually leave.

        1. It took me awhile to wake up to his deceptions. I was also making excuses for the CDs bad behaviours, so, naturally he didn’t have to. I read that on one of Dr. Simon’s postings.

          I kept believing that when external events were resolved, our life could be normal. It took awhile to realize that things would never change, that he made drama out of most events to get sympathy, while I was running around trying to fix problems he had created. I was enmeshed in his dramas and providing emotional support and all kinds of other services, so he could carry on being lazy, selfish and self-absorbed. He had many addictions too. But the selfish and self-absorption is what I couldn’t tolerate.

          I would say he is more of a vulnerable narcissist. He’s too lazy to be deliberately hurtful or plot and plan against someone.

          1. Anne,
            Deb assumed to many things, contribute, enable, I don’t care what the word is. I tried to do above and beyond to make things work. There is no perfect relationship. And so fittingly said A Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing and the Wolf hid behind me for many years.

            There are many sub-pieces of these creatures and they are master deceivers. I am not so naive anymore and I am not accepting blame or responsibility for any of it. The monsters wants to kill me, deal with that on a Missy plane. Us against them or me be nicety nice could get one six feet under.

        2. Lucy,

          No i don’t believe he went to jail, apparently he prepared all the food as he was a great cook??

          Please, please make sure you are safe, aim for the furthest distance you can, do NOT take chances.

        3. The Narcissist Support vids had me in shock also, especially the poisoning one, if i remember the video right, things were ok between them at that point as well, just goes to show that Evil comes with a smiling face a lot of the time.

    2. Anne,

      Deb’s questions seemed to concern other types of relationships than usually is the case with people here. I can understand why people would respond to her like they have and she made a stark distortion in her statement that people discussing what CDs have done would try to be narcissistically casting themselves in a light of perfection and she could’ve thought more how to express herself better.

      Yes, the word “narcissist” can be thrown around to describe anyone, whom someone doesn’t like or envies or thinks is more successful somehow, which dilutes, dims and drains the word of its substance. When it’s dropped around casually, it can merge into the background noise to pop up time and time again like “car”, “bus”, “train”, “street” and so on(at least to my comprehension) and people fail to see what the big deal is, like “narcissist” meant “everyday rude a**h**e”. I admit I’ve used that last word here a few times and the intent’s been to set apart whom I see as “just” rude, immature a**h**es and whom I think are more problematic and threatening. It may be easy to confuse the two.

      I’ve been reading some Patricia Evans and I remember reading some review on Amazon of Controlling people. One reviewer said that some examples given could as well be just signs of rudeness, indifference or poor people skills.

      I can see, however, how they could be used as weapons or tools of control in a different context. That context, abuse, may very well be subtle and accumulate over the longer time, hard to understand for other people, who haven’t seen it up close.

      What I think I hear you say, Anne, is: One can get tangled in unhealthy relationship dynamic without wanting to and there’s not just one way for that to be the case.

      1. If I understand Dr. Simon correctly, narcissisim (and neuroticism) are on a continuum (and narcissism comes in two general varieties). We all have a bit of each, and some of us are more on one extreme of the scale than other people are. People who come here, I would assume, have had experiences with different varieties of CDs.

        So some of us here are discussing extreme character disturbed people and some of us are discussing less extreme CDs. I think Deb wandered in when the extreme experiences were being discussed, and got a particular perspective from that. She observed an “us vs. them” dynamic, when she was seeking, perhaps, to learn more about how her own behaviours and beliefs contributed to her problematic relationship with a narcissist. I would like more discussion around that topic too. Because I believe that I can’t control other people, but I can control my own behaviours, reactions and choices. To do that, I need to understand myself better.

        I agree Deb could have worded her posting better, to account for the trauma people here have experienced. But she did ask alot of questions which, in my mind, leaves the field open for discussion, for opposite points of view, for asking for clarification. When I have an assumption that I want to test, I often ask a question.

        The word Psychopath gets thrown around alot too, like the word narcissist. BTOV mentioned a writer and I found her website: psychopathsandlove. It’s very good, I can learn alot from it (Thanks BTOV), because the behaviours and relationships described fit, not just true psychopaths, but the broader range of character disturbed and manipulative people. (I would not label anyone I have ever been personally involved with as a true psychopath or a narcissist whose dedicated to destroying me.)

      2. Timothy,

        Right on the button as always, when you are dealing with a Narcissist/Psychopath, everything they do is pretty calculated, even their anger has been described as ‘cold’ displays that they can switch on and off at will.

        It’s not due to heat of the moment behaviour, or wounding, it’s cold and serious planning, they set out to destroy what they can’t become.

        I must say the people described here sound like they are on the ‘far end’ of the continuum, not just having some traits of either condition. Easy to be confused though, some dynamics are not clear and someone could be calling their former partners narcs out of anger, without realizing, as you say Tim, the full connotations of that word.

        I don’t see that here, too much consistency in description and reaction, plain as day.

        Personally i think Narcissists are dangerous wherever they happen to fall on that continuum, if this is indeed what you are dealing with.

        Two things you said Tim, about the Narcissism term being dropped casually until it becomes static noise, and subtle abuse not seeming pathological in the beginning, wonderfully put, and very on point.

      3. Anne,

        Good that you at least haven’t encountered someone so extremely evil. It still can be irritating and bothersome to try to deal with a difficult person.

        How’d I forget that “psychopath” tends to be thrown around casually, too? It surely does. If people stopped describing anyone they dislike or distrust as “narcissists” and “psychopaths”, the words could work better.

        1. Timothy: “How’d I forget that “psychopath” tends to be thrown around casually, too? It surely does. If people stopped describing anyone they dislike or distrust as “narcissists” and “psychopaths”, the words could work better.”

          I agree, the words are getting thrown around constantly in the media, the internet and everyday conversations. Coffee table talk and as you say “causal” words. And they have become words that bullies use.

          That seems to be a problem with everything. Some new or different thing comes along and before you know it, it becomes a buzz word. A new fad sorta of thing and everyone dives into it in some way, shape or form. Various understandings, view points and definitions start emerging. Eventually facts and theories get so intertwined that people get caught up in the trap of believing half-truths and spreading their new found knowledge.

          Narcissistic and psychopath are no different. People are becoming comfortable with these two words. When used incorrectly and buzzing in casual conversation, people slowly begin to feel comfortable.

          Then is this not a way to dumb down people and remove the fear and horrors from the true meanings? A slow method of teaching people to tolerate the intolerant?

          There’s a big difference between a difficult person or a person who is having problems and one who is causing severe problems.

          I seem to think a comfort zone in regards to severe character disorders is dangerous. People should be alarmed, repulsed, sickened by the behaviors behind these two words.

          Knowledge is power – but only when first sorted and then used wisely.

          What I’ve found is that often times the smartest person in the room doesn’t know how dumb they are.

          1. Jackie,
            Great post, I wholeheartedly agree. I deal with the CD,N,P a whole spectrum of troubled individuals. I have one sister which is the incapacitated sister who had her come to jesus moment years ago.
            I told the story several months ago about my paraplegic sis that turned here life around and was truly narcissistic.

            I have another sis which is more CD and mislead and doesn’t know which road to take. I think at some point she may be approachable and have her come to Jesus moment.

            Some of the other family members I have are so CD and N I had to divorce them. In the individuals I have per se on a layman’s level diagnosed have been fairly accurate.

            Just, to toss it out there, you have the Kardasians Kim, and her family how would you describe this bunch of _________? The husband Kayne goes on stage and ever other word if F—– and he sings he is Jesus, how would you charcterise these individuals?

            For the most part to me they are extremely vain, selfish, self serving and the Garden variety narcissists that Dr. Simon describes.

            Thanks for the input and am glad you are here.

            Blessings to all

          2. Susie,

            Probably the wisest words on this thread yet. Even in prisons, true psychopaths make up only a third of the population. The rest are just messed up weirdos who do bad things and probably under the influence of alcohol…not the type you want to bring home to meet your mother, but nevertheless…
            It IS dangerous to water down the horror of being abused by a psychopath or genuine sadist (regardless of actual diagnosis) by referring to every garden variety jerk in our lives as a psychopath.
            This is also the kind of misinterpretation and over generalization that can be worked into a new ‘ism’ that can be twisted to political ends and end up in witch hunt dynamics.
            Some of the worst offenders are running their own interactive forums.

      4. Thanks, Jackie. 🙂

        You know, sometimes it seems, to me, perhaps just to me, that anyone, who’s more confident and more able to flow or deal with things than most of us, perhaps even unusually so, can unfairly get disparaged or slandered as a narcissist and it’s used in a way that seems to convey something like “Now that we two are talking about this kinda personality type and totally-not-gossiping about so-and-so, we’re better, because we’re humble and totally not envious or in need to improve ourselves or learn anything from so-and-so”. That’s my personal experience about things I’ve heard people talk in passing and I don’t know how common or uncommon that is. IMO that kinda talk would detract from discussions about suffering in the hands of real narcissists! Follow me?

        I don’t know if Deb could’ve thought about that, but I think that’s good to take to the table and I’m glad you’re open to talking about that.

        But is it managing to build solid internal structures of our own we should do? Would we be better able to judge whether an individual more “charismatic” and confident than most is a truly good, qualified helper, up to standards or not, or a fraud, crackpot or, worse, building their own empire?

        1. Timothy,

          Dr. Simons blog is a wealth of information and contains so many resources that others have so kindly shared. This Topic is full of sources and and at the end of the week I am going to try and take time to write all the info provided by posters in a notebook.

          Would you want to help go through the Topics and find the resources and perhaps we could compile a list and share it, since you like to read too. I think this would be of tremendous value to all.

        2. Hi Tim, you are welcome, it WAS a great post!

          But in determining if a person is just charismatic and confident or ‘one of them’, i honestly don’t think you could, unless you took the risks and got to know them (or their facade) a lot better.

          Unless something happened so they reveal themselves, the moment is too good to ignore and they famously think of that moment rather than the consequences, the skin is stripped off and you’re looking at an Alien lol!

          And oh yes, there ain’t nothin like a REAL Narcissist!

        3. Okay, BTOV, I can scroll sections. A few of the books I’ve ordered is thanks to some old recommendations posted somewhere I don’t quite remember. There are so many articles and as many comment sections…. It’s gonna take a while.

          I could look for a list I posted a while ago, but I’m not sure when that was.

          Jackie, not every sleaze is charismatic, but all these charming, charismatic power abusers make all charming and charismatic people seem suspect.

          1. Hi Tim,

            I remember reading in Robert Hare’s book about the possible biological underpinnings of Charm, this goes back to what LisaO was saying about perhaps shaping our own brains, could it be that in America and Canada it is ‘useful’ to these people to have this charm, to oil the wheels of their deception, so they literally shape their brains, changing the biology of it.

            In England, according to one Dr (who’s name escapes me) said that Scottish Psychopaths are more dour, compared to their North American counterparts; and from what i’ve seen, English ones are the same. We are more cynical over here, so charm would be more suspect to us.

            Having said that, Ian Brady (Moors Murderer) was said to possess charm, just that he couldn’t be bothered to use it.

            So i don’t know, so many questions….

        4. Timothy,
          Many times there are functioning individuals that are all that and more, who come across as arrogant. But what is there life like, are they good members of society, helping, giving and caring. I know many give and throw money at societies woes, but there are ones that will on the side go and work in the soup kitchens.

          I think that is why many times a doctor will say the “diagnoses is guarded.” It takes a lot of discernment and knowledge to know what and who someone is. Many health care professionals regardless are clueless.

          On the other hand lets not get to PC here as society as a whole comparing 50 years ago to now has turned into a boiling pot of confused messed up individuals and a rotted nation of moral decline. So much is so obvious. We need to be firm in our assessments, but also look at the whole picture.

          The Bible says “you will know them by their fruit.”

          1. BTOV,

            Not sure about Kim Kardashian, but Kanye West has been described as a Narcissist in the press quite a few times i believe.

            And Bruce Jenner? Lol!

            It’s heartwarming to read that some CD’s in your Family are turning their lives around, so it CAN be done, provided they are not too severely disordered i guess.

          2. It’s not charisma alone. There are other behaviors and tendencies that (LOL)tend to cluster.

          3. I found this today.


            “Plausible Charisma, Charm and Empathy

            Charisma is a personal quality often attributed to leaders who arouse popular devotion and enthusiasm. Sometimes it is achieved through the leader’s merit, and sometimes through the followers’ fear of the consequences of not being seen to be devoted and enthusiastic. The more respectful people are of the charismatic leader, the less likely they are to experience the consequences of not being seen as respectful. Remember that some charismatic leaders are respected because of their genuine merit and integrity.”

    3. Anne,

      I wasn’t hear to read Deb’s comments, but want to comment on the term, ‘enabling’.

      Most former partners and partners of CD’s, on this forum, were simply hoodwinked by a manipulator, in an atmosphere of ignorance — like you were.

      You may have been easy going and accommodating, but I don’t think ‘enabling’ is the right term, as it has pathological connotations. You seem smart, strong and able to me!

      ‘Enabling’ may be a benign term to some, but to others it’s fraught with judgemental baggage.

      Certainly there are some few people, like some very avoidant personalities who are attracted to the ‘confident’ narcissist and then find it impossible to leave, for purely kind of CD reasons of their own, but they are probably in the minority.

      1. Thanks for the clarification. I don’t really know the definition of enabling from a psychology pov. I was his narcissistic supply, which enabled him to continue in his delusions of control and grandiosity. He is an addict in many ways, and I was one of his drugs. I think he will crash one day. I helped him prolong the arrival of that day by being too helpful and accommodating.

          1. Lucy,

            I hope it helps you. I know it helps me to read other people’s stories, to know that it is very common for people to get used and abused in intimate relationships and not see it right away, or know what to do.

            It helps me to get over my anger with myself and forgive myself (I think that is harder than getting over my anger at him and forgiving him). It helps too, to learn how others leave these relationships and recover.

            I want to run out there and warn all the people I see making the same mistakes, because they don’t have the knowledge and skills to recognize people they shouldn’t get involved with.

  21. Gee Whiz,

    Read ‘The Art of War’ by Sun Tsu before litigation. If you want to see more of your children, for example, you might try telling her that you are temporarily very exhausted.

    If she is reflexively cruel (and I do think some of these monsters, act in an automatically cruel way), you will be seeing more of your kids. She will be acting to bring you down further, thinking looking after your kids will tire you more. Do not mention your fatigue in conjunction with any statements about your children.

    Don’t let her know you enjoy something, or she will withdraw it , or them, like your kids.

    These are harmless tactics that will help you and your kids. You may end up even smiling from a position of strength, rather than crying.

    I totally get the crying and deep grief and shock. Am so sorry you had that to go through. It’s emotional torture finding out that your mate doesn’t care and probably never did.

    You will move from shock and awe to bemused impartiality, eventually and hopefully. Your wife is a cold calculating machine, that has routines and sub routines, manages impressions, does ‘nice’ things on rare occasion, but otherwise is profoundly inhuman.

    It is one thing to look back on your life and wonder if your life with her was a fiction. The creepiest part is that with someone as cold as your wife, it seems like science fiction.

    The horrid thing is they walk among us, and look speak and think very much like we do. But their interior life and interpersonal emotional world, is very different.

    1. LisaO,
      Glad to see your back. I hope you are well and had a nice Xmas.

      Yes, so very true. If my X or any of the CD I have to deal with know I want something that is exactly what they want. My X refused to say he wanted anything. If I wanted a cup he wanted it. So we got the judge, which he wanted and was that a mess, my X was irate but thats what he wanted. I asked for the dog so he wanted the dog. The dog was awarded to him, I cried and cried he got my dog. In the beginning if I said I wanted the dog my dog may have ended up dead. So be very careful what you ask for.

      I got the mattress he got the frame. I just laughed to myself, throughout the D I never said a word or looked at him. It was totally about control and I am so easy going. In the end he looked the fool and really it is only stuff! The sad thing is I can’t get rid of him even though its going on 5 years.

      Gee, Lisa is giving you sound advise, she is very astute in her perceptions. I gained more, by not saying anything or as LisaO said letting her know Iyou enjoy something.

      1. So true about themaking sure you lose what you really want. The more I read posts I now realize I just need to shut my mouth. I will make a conscious effort to shut the mouth from now on. It’s so hard. It is how I vent.

        1. Lucy, for sure, vent away, just not to him. You never want to vent to a winder-upper. Though, damn, it’s tempting!! I would wait until everything is over and done, give it a year, and then leave a beautifully boxed and gift wrapped cat turd, on his porch. LOL. Maybe not. The payback might be a circus elephant hired to leave a whopper on your porch!!

          I remember some years ago, a few of the women on an interactive forum I used to read, posted about their repetitive emails to the P or Narcissist perp, venting their frustration grief anger. Some of the posters were there for months, unable to comprehend how their grief and or anger was perceived. They just kept emailing, phoning and getting a nasty or no-reaction, communication back.

          I felt so bad for them. I know the journey out of cognitive dissonance is so difficult. What seemed to help and something that hadn’t occurred to them, until I brought it up, was that the perpetrator might burst out laughing when he received their emails and phone messages.

          If the villains were psychopaths, this is quite possible. I guess the impact of that visual — P or N opening their email and laughing their ass off, was something that hit home and the few that responded quit the emailing and phone calls, cold turkey! Yeay! Victory. One small step for man, etc…etc…

          1. I was in email hell for quite awhile. It made life intolerable. I have not done it for a month or so now and am so much more at peace.

      2. Oh Btov, thanks, My Dear!

        Yuk, just yuk. Your x sounds like the worst vindictive person, to say the least.

        In going through divorce, be careful and avoid all drama. Grey rock, grey rock, grey rock.

        Poor Gee Whiz. I feel for him. It’s particularly creepy when a woman is super cold. We’re supposed to be the astute, sensitive nurturers. Very almost spooky?

      3. Yeah they try to get what you want. My STBX, shortly after me filing for D, filed a petition to sell the two items that bring me the most pleasure (not disclosing too much here). They are worth some money, but he won’t offer to sell anything of “his” that are worth money – even though he doesn’t use them. He says THEY ARE HIS! Not selling! He enjoys punishing me, enjoys giving me grief.

        1. Lucy Brown,

          Don’t worry about that, if you have enough in assets to request that wait till the hearing. I really can’t say because I don’t know where you are in the process. The judge should be fair and will know who is being vindictive. However, seeing the vindictive CDN moron he will lose everything if he knows it will hurt you.

          Being in the system you should know many of these things. I know when we are in it it is hard to be objective when it is us instead of someone else. Try to stand outside of the circumstances and try to get some clarity.

          I will repeat this over and over to you, I’m going to be a broken record, keep your mouth shut, DO NOT TALK AT WORK. Your take the chance of being recorded and what you say can be used against you!

          I am praying for you and Blessings

    2. Gee,
      True it is devastating at first. I cried and Moines for three months just about daily – was so sad and lost and confused. Then I gained clarity. The sadness is gone. It’s replaced with disgust and anger. Your emotions will certainly change too. It’s a process. Takes time. Keep your head up. You will be fine – stressed – but that damn dark cloud will be gone.

    3. LisaO,

      That’s where i am coming from, excellent post.

      Your information about the Mirror Neurons was new to me also, haven’t read that before, so thank you!

      1. Your’re so welcome, Jackie. I am really enjoying reading our posts. What I wrote about the mirror neurons is just a question — and my own theory, with a capital M for maybe!

      2. LisaO,

        You may well be right about it though, it makes perfect sense, a lot of what you say hits the spot with these people, i find myself nodding furiously at your posts lol!

  22. Hi Btov,

    You have made some amazing points here! We are born with certain abilities, talents, basic personality types. Our actions, thoughts, desires; many of which are based on choices we freely make, (particularly with regards how we treat others) will have some effect on brain structure.

    To do an autopsy on a psychopath, see that there are alterations in the brain, doesn’t tell us too much right now. Brain science is very young.

    We may all be in the process of building the brains we want/need that reflect our values or lack thereof.

    Though some individuals seem to be born with a huge propensity for character disorder and for them, exercising choice and free will is going to be a whole lot tougher. Still, they can do it.

    I agree with you! It is still up to them.

  23. Has anyone read this one? Evil Genes: Why Rome Fell, Hitler Rose, Enron Failed, and My Sister Stole My Mother’s Boyfriend by Barbara Oakley.

    “Have you ever heard of a person who left you wondering, “How could someone be so twisted? So evil?” Prompted by clues in her sister’s diary after her mysterious death, author Barbara Oakley takes the reader inside the head of the kinds of malevolent people you know, perhaps all too well, but could never understand. ”

    The amazon reviews are intriguing.

    1. Vera,

      Thank you, I will have quite a bill with Amazon this month. I have read considerably on Hitler Russian history. This country and the behavior disorders of the people and systems resonate and run parallel. It is indeed erie and sad.

      Off to take care of sis today and are the CD in the family stirring up trouble. I think the most disgusting and ugly looking human is an adult two year old narcissist. If they could only see themselves, hmm….. that is what the N said to me “If you could only see yourself. ” I was rather puzzled at the time because I wasn’t engaging. Me thinks the mirror was facing the
      wrong way. I understand now.

      1. Vera,
        You must have some perserverance to deal with them all. Do any of your family members help, or are they all CDs? Mirror facing wrong way – no kidding.

        1. I have one strong supporter among family friends. He’s sheltered me when I had to flee, and provided untold moral support. The rest… it’s a mixed bag. Relatives know, but I cannot rely on them. Tend to make excuses for age (as though it began a few years ago!). I have two women friends who are supportive. And one other family friend who’s herself been badly abused by husband for years, and has admitted it, but still makes excuses. (He finally died.) But she understands and is willing able to shelter me too when I need to get away.

          I am grateful not to be in this alone, as I was for most of my life! Thank you for asking. 🙂

          1. Vera, so sorry this has been going on for so long for you. And so relieved you have support from a few people who believe you!
            Stay strong. He won’t be around for long — though they do say only the good die young. So using that logic??? Oh, we don’t even want to consider he might be immortal, he is SO nasty!!
            Just out of curiosity, is your father motivated by anger, regardless of how irrational that would be, or is he a kind of game playing, duping delight sadist? Or maybe a bit of both??

          2. LisaO, no, he uses his anger precisely as Dr Simon says, “brandishing anger” in a calculated way to abuse the other. Kinda like hitting you over the head with verbal fury, to get a reaction, to create a scene. He is conniving, duplicitous all the time (right now I have begun to worry he is hiding mail from me), hides items like keys and watches (gaslighting), and spews lies just to confuse me and make my life harder.

            It’s always always about power. He is looking to find a way to push me down, always has. He will do it even in situations where not doing it would be more in his interest… where I am trying to help him, for example. He derives greater pleasure from covertly messing with me than the helpful results if he just let me help him.

            He did the same with my mother, and with people who used to work for him. I believe he gets a lot of pleasure from bringing pain into people’s lives. Sometimes he is like an evil wizard… I have watched him perform in a theatrical way to manipulate me into doing something and lead me by the nose. If interrupted, he will say “wait wait” and relaunch the entire theatrical performance. Eerie.

            Later, he acts as though nothing happened.

            My mother never knew what hit her. But I know! I KNOW. And I am armed with all the new skills, and resolve. She walks in the next world now, but I do it for her, too! And she knows… 🙂

  24. Vera,

    I really, reaaalllly don’t like your father. When you say your Mom didn’t know what hit her, do you mean she didn’t know he was pathological?

    It must be so hard to go through life in a constant state of wtf??? always trying to remedy something, in your partner, you don’t understand.

    My father was weird. I didn’t quite grasp how weird or why or what exactly was going on.

    I do know that I had an overwhelming compulsion not to bend to his will and I didn’t understand why. I was easy going and didn’t have to ‘win’ with anybody else about anything. But him?

    He wasn’t as bad as your father by a long shot — but he was insulting and hit us all the time, me and one of my brothers the most
    So like — sorry Dad…”you want me to clean my room and make my bed?? Okay, in a minute..”

    I made that minute drag on for hours and days. He’d hit me, call me a slob, make me the butt of jokes, like that would take care of it! Hardly.

    The more he physically hurt me, the more I dug in my heals. I don’t think he could believe it. Omg. Crazy crazy scenes.

    I don’t know what his problem was. He was an intelligent man, could be quite genuinely good hearted.

    So kind of a situational jerk comorbid with deep dislike of children. He loved little kids but as soon as we learned to talk — that was it, no more Dad.

    1. Lisa, Vera,
      I am so sorry the sad stories we all have to tell, no wonder society is so screwed up. At times like this I am speechless and want to cry, I know what it feels like, how bad does it have to get before someone, anyone cares enough to stop the abuse. To cause such pain and suffering on another. It resonates over and over in my head, they would not tolerate the abuse themselves but feel justified in harming others. How sick and so very sad for the innocent victims.

      Vera, just bless your heart, its not an easy task to take care of these monsters. As I said my dad was a &^(*(%(( to the very end and then called on the Lord. Only God knows the answer. But I question how one can treat everyone with such vile selfishness for 80 years and snub their nose at God and in the last days of their life call on Christ. It rings of a true hypocritically, cowardly narcissist. I am not his judge but I do wonder and ask how is this so.

    2. LisaO, no, my mother never knew. And it took me many years to realize. When you live with someone like that it’s so crazy making you get trapped in the crazy like in a maze. In the end, she died… in part to escape it. She wanted to leave him but never managed.

      Yes, it’s a constant WTF, but you keep turning it over in your head all the time, puzzling it out, and never can, desperately.

      Because I am the adult child of a malignant narc, I was of course preyed upon by several other such men in adulthood. The last time it happened (he was a friend that time) I almost threw in the towel. I thought, you know, these patterns keep repeating, it must be me after all!

      And then, my father pulled some really crazy crapola, that fit nothing I knew previously, and sent me searching in the library for several weeks until I found the answer. What a journey it’s been! Ever since then, my life fell into place. For the first time. 🙂

      Your dad sounds crazy too. At least you stood up to him! Mine almost never hit me, and he did spend some good times with me as a kid. It’s when adolescence came that he turned on me, and started to get really abusive, even physically for a time.

      What stories, eh? The details vary, but the crazy is the same.


  25. Love your work Dr. Simmon, BUT, i gotta disagree with you on this one.
    That sounds like quite an oxymoronic term. I’m not getting that at all. I see a Narisissist as a Egomaniac individual who uses others, knows what they are feeling, but doesn’t care. How can that same person be;

    -have a Sense of Shame
    -Show empathy???

    A narcissist who has Empathy?


    No way…a narcissist is someone who needs to be CRUSHED !!!

    (SYMPATHY for the Devil—i think NOT).

    1. jjsiegal,

      The two main varieties can be, a narcissist who
      – believes himself to be superior, a egomaniac to the core
      – projects (try to show off) himself to be superior, a egomaniac on surface only

      To a observer, both will initially appear to be same, i.e. a egomaniac. But, the internal thinking process and beliefs behind are quite different.

      Dr. Simon says that first variety (a egomaniac to the core) is more prevalent in today’s time.
      Classical psychology, and textbooks written in first half of previous century and still taught in colleges, emphasize the second variety (a egomaniac to cover up for inner weakness).

      You will be generally right, if you say all narcissists are egomaniac to the core. I am not so sure about need to crush them. Just treating them like any normal person should be good enough.

    2. Thanks for your comments. Just not sure what you’re reading in this article to take such issue with, or what you’re reading that suggests what’s needed is “sympathy.” The research has been pretty solid for the past 13 years and attests to what I was saying over 20 years ago. There are two types of narcissists, one slightly more benign than the other but both very problematic and often toxic to relationships. And the literature suggests that in our times, the more character-disturbed type is far more prevalent, especially in men. And the more malignant the narcissism, the more devoid the person is of empathy. Again, just not sure what you’re disagreeing with. Perhaps you just can’t imagine there might be one in a hundred individuals with narcissistic features that isn’t extremely pathological. Don’t know – just guessing.

  26. Hello there, I am a retired grandmother, 61 years old. Two months ago I moved in with my daughter and my son-in-law who have a 12-year-old daughter. I’m realizing that my son-in-law has severe depression and narcissism, and my daughter appears to be codependent because she constantly defends his horrible behavior and attitudes towards the rest of us. My poor granddaughter believes she is the cause of all the strife in their world, because she is expected to understand her father’s issues and give him grace for the terrible way he treats her. I am at a loss how to help this family heal, because I am a fixer! At this point all I’m doing is praying for them and pouring out my love on her. Any advice would be gratefully received!

    1. Sara
      Giving the granddaughter the love she needs is so important. That is the one thing you can do. you really can’t fix the daughter and son-in-law I’m sorry to say.
      I can imagine how distressing it is to witness.

    2. I would also add to Lucy’s comments, to constantly affirm that their behavior is not her fault and that she does not have that power to cause that strife (in terms she will understand, of course). She is only responsible for her behavior and her parents are responsible for their attitude/behaviors. I would say modeling NOT fixing/rescuing/enabling is a great start. Also, counseling, Alateen, or something might be good for her. She needs a healthy outlet for her feelings (kids feel guilty and shame for thinking badly about their parents) and a counterbalance to all the conditioning that is giving her the belief that it’s her fault. Oh, I just thought of something else! I think this would be excellent, The Leader In Me books by Stephen Covey. They are age appropriate and also give her the tools and perspectives to navigate life in a healthier way. Wish they had them when I was young. I was a leader, but had to look outside the home for mentors and encouragement. Glad she has you as her enlightened witness and guide!

  27. Thank you for this article it really shines a light everything you are describing describes my mom. She would be the Covert. Growing up I always knew something wasn’t right but I couldn’t ever put my finger on it. Recently I have been going to therapy and during counseling, the pieces of the puzzle started to fall into place. As far as the manipulation humiliation devaluation, Gas lighting,Rages,etc. I have a question my mom uses quite a lot of mean sarcasm And jabs such as to put you down. Is the sarcasm a part of the narcissist traits?

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