Toxic Self-Love

By definition, narcissism is toxic self-love. Narcissists have a self-image that’s pathologically out of balance. Such individuals have failed to heed and master the lessons associated with what I call the “third commandment” of sound character development. (See:  Keeping a Balanced Sense of Self-Worth).  And, as we’re learning about so many of the different psychopathologies, narcissism exists along a spectrum. In fact, it exists along two spectra: one of quality, and one of degree.

There’s been a lot of talk about narcissism in recent years. And there’s been a near explosion of debate on narcissistic personality types as well, especially  since the most recent edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association (DSM-5) saw fit to drop Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) as a distinct, official category. But whether or not certain powers formally recognize NPD as a mental disorder, there are plenty of folks who know all too well how painful it is to live or deal with a narcissist. And most folks who know a narcissist want to know how they got to be the way they are and what really makes them tick. So it’s worthwhile to explore the roots of this pathological form of self-love.

The term narcissism comes from the ancient tale of Narcissus, who, as the ancient Greek myth goes, was a strikingly handsome and gifted young man who clearly knew what he had going for him. So aware and enamored of his endowments was he that he wasn’t at all fazed by the relentless amorous advances of a nymph who fancied him. Rather, as he gazed upon his own reflection in a pool of water, he found all he’d ever dreamed of in perfect complement to himself: himself! Narcissists simply don’t need people in the way healthy others do.  They might desire others for self-serving purposes. (One highly pathological reason is to look even more “special,” powerful, or worthy of envy because they managed to seduce and possess someone else of beauty, talent, or character value.) But they don’t have genuine regard for others. Narcissism, therefore, at its core is not the healthy self-love that leads to adaptive self-protection and care, but rather the haughty perception of oneself as such an idol that one has no real need for anyone else.

Classical psychology paradigms portrayed narcissists as individuals with “fragile” egos who are inwardly insecure and unconsciously compensate for their underlying low self-esteem with their braggadocio. And this can indeed sometimes be the case. But research has been bearing out what I first asserted in my book In Sheep’s Clothing 20 years ago: In our age of widespread character disturbance, “vulnerable” or “neurotic” narcissism is relatively rare. (For more on the two types of narcissism see, for example, the article: Two Main Varieties of Narcissists).  As I explain in my books Character Disturbance, The Judas Syndrome, and How Did We End Up Here?, these days there are many more vain and self-centered folks who aren’t lacking in self-esteem at all but actually believe in their greatness and superiority. And their inflated views of themselves are not an unconscious, anxious compensation for anything. Dealing with a person who truly believes they’re nature’s gift to the world, can be a monumental challenge, especially if you have to work with or live with them every day.

I mentioned earlier that narcissism exists along two spectra.  One spectrum has to do with the type of narcissism someone has (i.e. “vulnerable” or “neurotic” vs. character-disturbed), and the other has to do with the degree of narcissism they have.  If you’ve done any reading about narcissism of late, chances are you’ve also heard the term “malignant narcissism,” which is most severe form of narcissism. It’s hard to imagine any kind of narcissism that’s completely “benign,” so it’s worth understanding what makes some narcissism more “malignant” in character.

Narcissism is something we all have to a degree during our early stages of growth. But most of us eventually grow to develop a healthier balance of perspective with respect to our self-interest and self-regard versus our regard for and need of others. This part of what mastering the first three “commandments” of sound character development is all about. When a person enters adulthood carrying the narcissistic tendencies they had as a child, their relationships are bound to be full of trouble. Narcissism is always unhealthy or pathological self-love. But it becomes particularly “malignant” — malevolent, dangerous, virulent, even incurable — when it goes beyond mere vanity, excessive self-focus, and haugtiness to outright disregard for and disdain of others. Malignant narcissists truly see themselves as superior to others. And they believe in their superiority to the degree that they view others as relatively worthless, expendable, and justifiably exploitable. This is the very type of narcissism at the heart of psychopathy and some sociopathy. And it’s what leads to a person’s sense of entitlement to prey upon others. Malignant narcissism has its roots in a deficient capacity for empathy. (Sometimes, the capacity for empathy is absent altogether). And it’s almost impossible for a person with such shallow feelings and haughtiness to form the kind of conscience that has any of the qualities we typically associate with a humane attitude, That’s why most researchers and theorists on the topic of psychopathy view psychopaths as individuals largely devoid of conscience. (To learn more about psychopathy and sociopathy, see my other articles on the subjects, including: Malignant Narcissism: At the Core of Psychopathy.

Because ours is the age of permissiveness, moral relativisim, and especially “entitlement,” narcissism in all its forms has flourished. Narcissism isn’t just “enabled” by modern culture, it’s actively promoted and even often rewarded, which is why we’re seeing so much of it. Just about everyone has a story to tell about dealing with a narcissist. And the key to ridding ourselves of this plague is grooming our children to both learn well and embrace the third “commandment” with all its tenets on how to forge a balanced sense of self-worth.  Adult narcissists who’ve come by some motivation to change have to learn the very same lessons, but as almost anyone knows, changing one’s character after becoming fairly set in one’s ways is pretty difficult. An you have to have just the right motivation to change. So, our real hope is in helping our young folks get the balance right to start with. Noble character is largely about healthy self-love. Narcissism is the manifestation of pathological self-love. Getting the balance right is what the third commandment of sound character formation is all about. Look for more on the “10 commandments” of character development in my upcoming book with Dr. Kathy Armistead: The Ten Commandments of Character: How to Lead a Significant Life.

Character Matters will be live again this Sunday Evening at 7 pm EDT on UCY.TV, so I can take your calls at (718) 717-8296.  Our topic for discussion will be how “desensitized” we’ve become to the character crisis we face, the loss of outrage and the apparent resignation we have to it, and what we can do about reversing this unfortunate trend.


55 thoughts on “Toxic Self-Love

  1. Dr. Simon,
    What you have done through the years is to define simply and logically what is wrong with our society and the sickness of what is really the battlefield for our minds. Instead of more psychobabble gobbledegook, you expose the problem for what it is, pure selfish hedonism of self.

    Regardless, of what the scientific majority suggested all these decades as the underlying components for psychiatric disturbances in the narcissistic personality disorder, you trudged along in unknown and undesired territory to unearth the truth of the why the Charactered Disordered are the way they are.

    One day when all are educated to this phenomena called narcissistic personality disorder, all will have the mental and emotional tools available to them at their disposal because of the pioneering work that you have done. Having the courage to step outside of the box and present the truth, how you saw it, instead of agreeing and going along with the mainstream medical conglomerate.

    At the same time you have setup a roadmap of values and ideals for the individuals whose lives have been torn apart and shattered by the Charactered Disordered Narcissistic Individuals. When there was no understanding or hope and so much despair you shed immense light on the real problem for so many giving us a choice and an opportunity to take back our lives.

    This is groundbreaking work and I believe you will be looked up to by millions and be revered in the medical field for finally putting to rest all the questions that could never be answered. So many people, so many that I love have been needlessly destroyed by this sickness of selfishness and it will ultimately be the demise of our society if it is not stopped. I attest to the the fact it is a choice and ultimately a choice of character.

    I am sincerely grateful for all of Dr. Simon’s life’s work, it has truly been life changing for me. God bless you.

    Bonfire of the Vanities

  2. And they believe in their superiority to the degree that they view others as relatively worthless, expendable, and justifiably exploitable.

    This is what the mother/grand mother, did to me and my brother plus his kids. All our lives.

    1. I noticed that this can have a good effect on kids.

      You, the kid, see the behavior is wrong and you think, I’m not going to be like this asshole.

      I’ve met really fair minded people with crazy selfish parents.

      But I think you got to think your way out of it, turning BS in to gold.

      I would be much better to have fair minded parents, but the nut jobs can trigger a positive response in us.

      1. “But I think you got to think your way out”

        That’s a big key to life – ‘how’ to think.

        Not ‘what’ to think.

        Big difference in ‘how’ to think and ‘what’ to think.

        It’s not just parents that influence children. The entire social environment thru out the growing years has a major impact on child development.

        1. That’s the truth – it’s HOW we think that determines how life goes . Schools do not teach “how” – they only teach “what” to think. Also, considering that so many parents possess no self-knowledge whatsoever, it’s a wonder that their progeny ever survive, psychology.

          “Whatever the one generation may learn from the other, that which is genuinely human no generation has learned from the foregoing . . . thus no generation has learned from another to love, no generation begins at any other point than at the beginning , no generation has a shorter task assigned to it than had the previous generation. In this respect every generation begins primitively, has no different task from that of every previous generation, nor does it get further, except in so far as the preceding generation shirked its task and deluded itself.”

          ~ Soren Kierkegaard ~

    2. Joey
      I feel your pain. The mother/grandmother, tonbentjwbones to inflict pain on innocent children is so wrong.
      The Jerk has done the same to me. He wasn’t always like this though.
      Good thing we recognize them for what they truly are. The Game Is Over.

      1. Hi All,
        Have been at the hospital with my sis I talk about. Great article to compare how one becomes malignant. My sis was the most selfish, ugly, person you would want to know. Being older I watched the formation of all my siblings and how their personalities developed as they grew older. All of them have mild to severe DC to include the sociopath to the psychopathic end of the spectrum.

        This sis that is a paraplegic became that way trying to commit suicide. She lived after jumping several hundred feet, which was a miracle, said this was her come to Jesus moment. It was a life changing moment. Before this she said she hated the thought of God and said “I spit in his face because I was better than God and I didn’t need him.”

        Sis said it is an ongoing struggle to do the right thing, to fight the Jezebel spirit that wants to pull her to the other side. She said she has to continually fight the dark side verses the good side.

        Her narcissism always gets her in trouble making the wrong decisions. She said more than anything it is when I get jealous and want what others have and I get greedy.

        We had an interesting talk at the hospital, two days prior she had slammed the phone down telling me she could take care of herself. Yesterday she was begging me to help and make the decisions for her. She admitted her smug selfish side had taken over.

        It will be interesting to see when all these CDNSP get to the age where they need someone to care for them. Will see how their bold stubborn false pride holds up when they need help and become sick. Hmmmm……

        1. Interesting post about how she struggles to fight the bad and good. I’m sure you feel sad for her at times. It’s hard to watch a CD suffer.
          I feel sad for The Jerk at times, but then I read an email or remember something he has done and BAM! I get hit with his Ugly Stick.
          But we are human and do have compassion. And it saddens me to see a person live and lead an ugly life. And BOTV, I know you don’t turn your back on her because she does need you, and you have compassion. But you also know your limits and boundaries.
          It’s just an all-around difficult situation to have ties with a CD. I still have conflicting emotions. But I do know to NEVER trust this person again, ever, and try hard to keep him out of my life as much as I can.
          UGH! Living divorce hell – but I do see an end of it drawing near.

          1. Lucy,
            I try to look objectively at the NCD and if I am wrong someone correct me. All psychopaths are narcissists but all narcissists are not psychopaths. I have seen the outward desire of these individuals to knowingly harm others, at the same time the vile abuse they dish out, heaven forbid you treat them that way.

            Many decisions in life are presented to us and we ultimately decide what we after we have hopefully, given thought about it.
            What is the right thing to do?
            How do I personally benefit?
            How will my decision affect others?
            Ultimately, it is a choice of who benefits, do I think only of me? (Selfish)
            Is it a choice that benefits all concerned?
            Do we choose Darkness over Light?

          2. Lucy,
            Its alright to have that love, perhaps, lost love and good memories and put them safely in a cubby in your heart. What has finally happened is these morons who think they are all it an more are finally consumed by their self love.

            Self love shows no mercy to those who choose the Mask, the mask is worn at a heavy price, that is, they “will” there own method of death and destruction. The all knowing CDNSP are to outright stupid in their vanity to see their own demise. You can see it, I can see it, but they are blinded by their own ignorance.

            The CDNSP have in essence “Sold Their Souls to the Devil.”

          3. I too develop ambiguous feelings for my wife every few week. But, then I read few emails from her, and remind myself that she hasn’t done a single right thing since those emails, and poof… there goes ambiguous feelings, hope, maybe this, maybe that. 🙂

        2. It will be interesting to see when all these CDNSP get to the age where they need someone to care for them. Will see how their bold stubborn false pride holds up when they need help and become sick. Hmmmm…

          They might desire others for self-serving purposes. (One highly pathological reason is to look even more “special,” powerful, or worthy of envy because they managed to seduce and possess someone else of beauty, talent, or character value.) But they don’t have genuine regard for others.

          From the above post. It happened to me. Take care.

          1. Andy,
            Do you know how this works with the reply’s. I am curious, how long have you been married? You seem to know what and who she is, if I may ask what is really preventing you from going forward? i know the decision was very difficult for me. So many mixed emotions, I really loved him but at the same time I couldn’t stand him, I really loathed what I saw.

            For so many years I was in the fog and one day his friend said to me “what did you expect, dont you know he is a narcissist?” I was floored, I had educated myself on CDNSP but was in total denial until someone else confirmed it. That was the final piece I needed. I have looked back and think of all we had and what could had been, what a tragic waste of human life.

            When I seen the hideous caricature of who he was hiding behind the mask I could had puked I was so sickened. The years of distorted thinking and the toll on his sole and mind were so obviously clear now. The CDNSP become so entwined and melded into their fake persona I doubt they will or can find their way back.

            My Father was a CDMN and at the very end when he knew his life was coming to and end he called out for Jesus to forgive him. Only God knows his heart. You could never talk to him, it was like there is no one home inside. Oh my’ he was a empty shell, he had no depth of person hood. He played Russian roulette till the day he died and only God knows his heart.

            There were 8 children in my family and only 2 of us had the nurturing nature of my mother. My mom made a lot of poor choices as a result of the abuse of my father, she was not a N like him. As I said the 6 range from the neurotic to the psychopathic on the spectrum. I have watched and they continually get worse, their diseased mind consumes them. They have crossed the brink, they turn into ultimate evil where they have lost their souls. I don’t know if they can ever be reached when they have crossed this line. Perhaps, that is why so many of them are diagnosed as schizophrenic.

          2. BTOV,

            Regarding replies:
            – I use RSS feed to get blogs and comments on my email.
            – I use website to post comments. There are two options to post comments: one is right after a comment (a reply to comment, continuing a conversation thread), another right in the end of page (reply to blog, starting new conversation thread).

            Regarding what prevents me from going ahead:
            Nothing prevents me from going ahead with divorce. But, I do not want to feel guilty that I did not give her a chance. I had been married for about 10 years. If you meet two of us separately (me, and my wife), we are obviously going to blame other party for all the problem. I know I was not perfect. But, I know for sure that I am usually truthful, but she is a wolf in sheeps clothing exactly as described in the book.

            The biggest regret that I have are:
            – I was naive enough not to understand her fake games
            – I was too forgiving when she played her suicide game first time around. Had I pressed her fully that time, I would have hopefully realized her nature soon after marriage.
            – I let the character disturbance train roll for a long time. Had I been wise enough, I would have cut it short: either she wised up or got divorced within 2 years of marriage.

            There certainly are many things that I learned from all this. She also taught me several good things, beside existence of two-faced people. But, I too paid a hefty price for all those learning.

          3. Hi Andy,
            If I may ask, I thought you had a child, if so, boy or girl and how old if I may ask. It is nice to have a mans input on the board. How do you feel about the numbers, men vs. women? I know the 4 sisters I have some of them can become outright deadly. I know men are more hesitant to say something many times.

            When you read the book your eyes were opened to what the problem is.. Did you ever show her the book or did you tell her what she is to put bluntly and if so what was her response.

            Thanks Andy and a Big Hug! I needed a Man Hug today!

          4. BTOV,

            I have a daughter. She is 5 year old.

            As far as gender is concerned. I believe man and woman are genetically equally predisposed to aggression and narcissism. How these two problems manifest itself in behavior, is influenced by human social setup. In case of men, aggression and narcissism is more overt. But in case of women, it is usually covert.

            I had told my wife all her past wrong behaviors as they happened. She refused to see them in truthful manner. I told her she is a liar, and hopeless case till she continues to lie. And, I keep her up to date on what I am doing next, so that she knows what is coming next. One last step is filing divorce. It is truly amazing to see the the length these people can go to maintain their lies.
            Even though I haven’t told her so, but she is free to come around anytime. I do not care if she does not come around and continues to believe her own lies. I do not plan to drag her to any psychologist, though sometime back I believed if we can just have few hours of sensible talk, things will start moving in better direction. Now, I know she has plenty of insights, a lot more insights than I do. But, I know what is right and what is wrong. And, I will do the right thing, whatever the short-term cost may be. And, right thing is that if a relationship is not working, and if she refuses to participate constructively, and if she continues to lie, then such relationship is not worth my time.

            Oh no. I did not share the book with her. Why arm her? Better is to just state the things as they are, and what I am going to do next. And, she can make up her own choice. It is not that she doesn’t know she is lying, and she cannot differentiate between right and wrong. She is fully aware, and she is making her own right or wrong choices.

            What I believe happened in her case is that covert-aggression is mostly learned behavior and it got her what she needed. Her definition of a relationship is control, not partnership, and all that on my expense. The root lies in few generation earlier on her maternal grandmother side, and it still continues. I had read somewhere on the net who put this very nicely saying “umbilical cord is not broken between my wife, her mother, and her mother’s mother” “what I got here is golden child, of a golden mother, of a golden mother’s mother”.

            {{HUGS}} 🙂

  3. BTOV


    In the science of genetics, epigenetics is the study of cellular and physiological phenotypic trait variations that result from external or environmental factors that switch genes on and off and affect how cells express genes.[1][2] Hence, epigenetic research seeks to describe dynamic alterations in the transcriptional potential of a cell. These alterations may or may not be heritable, although the use of the term epigenetic to describe processes that are not heritable is controversial.[3] Unlike genetics based on changes to the DNA sequence (the genotype), the changes in gene expression or cellular phenotype of epigenetics have other causes, thus use of the prefix epi- (Greek: επί- over, outside of, around).[4][5]

    Watched Jame Fallon. This is what the big thing is now. I suppose this is why my brothers daughter. The daughter She is special. Wow ! I look forward to seeing her on britain’s most wanted

    1. Joey,
      I know all the brain studies they do and it “” is recognized the brain is different.”
      I know the CDN in my life was very different, is “a drummer to his own beat.”
      This was verified by the mother who was also a N….. So in essence became what he hated most. He became his mother………..

      Joey, he choose to be the way he is, I think about so many incidents and things that we said, make sense now. He clearly know what he was doing and at times I actually saw the true self. regardless of how ones brain is it is still a choice.

      They can love but choose not to, its about control and their self-serving nature. I think in future studies they will find this out. In one of Dr. Simons topics he talked about the stubborn nature of these individuals. There is some type of satisfaction in resisting what they know is right. I have seen it, when you live in the vipers nest you learn a lot.

      Thanks for posting the above info and I will read. You are always so thoughtful in sharing new information and resources. I think this fellow was mentioned before in other posts. (((Hugs))) I know the feeling of the wet suit.

        1. Joey,
          I think you posted this before, I had started to watch and then forgot about it.

          Thanks for reposting the link, I almost forgot it again.

  4. To All
    I want you ALL to know I’m getting headway with divorce from The Jerk. I’m a survivor. I know his tactics. I’ve got his number. He will not chew me up and spit me out. He does not know my strength. He does not know me anymore. I am out from under his spell. He will answer, in court, to what he has done. Thank you ALL for your support! I am healthy – stressed of course — but I will not lose my good character traits and zest for life because he chose the dark side. He can wallow in his own piss and mud. I’ll come out OK – poorer, but okay. Rich with life.

    1. Lucy,
      I am glad to hear something is going on. This is going to be very taxing until you get to the hearing. At least its progress, the CDN is going to go kicking and screaming, you will see the real 6 year old now. Don’t let him pull your strings, he will do anything now. These stupid jerks are actually so deluded they think they can get to you, you know how the pond scum thinks, so don’t let him suck you in. He is going to do and say things you never imagined and it is going to be so ridiculously stupid. So hang on for the ride.

      If anything and the division is not done, get your divorce and settle the other things later if possible. You will sever the umbilical cord of attachment and this will be a huge blow coming from you. This will be a turning point.

      These arrogant slim believe because they have manipulated you and everyone else in the past they can continue to do so. Remember, don’t give him the satisfaction of even looking at him.

      Thanks for the words of inspiration, I get down in the dumps having to clean up the mess the selfish brat made. I get so tired, but you are a winner and I must remember getting depressed and pulled down is what they want.

      Remember the movie Alien, they are Aliens and they plant baby aliens that need to be destroyed. I was in the head of these sick beasts and it is a desolate landscape of horror and despair. They aren’t that smart either because they have to use lies, trickery, cheating and all low life methods to destroy and conquer you and all you offered was love. I have to cleanse the eggs that attached they are pulling me down, I know I can do it.

      They think they are so brilliant, they are nothing without using evil and I mean evil methods. Their life is built on lies and destruction. Destruction can last 2 minutes and it destroys 30 years of solid hard work.

      These low life’s and they know who and what they are don’t want to be decent and honest, humble and giving. They don’t want to build truth and a solid authentic self because they are cowards, lazy and selfish, truly given over to the devils work and in the end they will pay a heavy price for their sins against humanity.

      The CDNSP lack character and courage and a spirit beyond their ignorant realm of thinking and this dear Lucy is a gift you have. Never, can they take it from you only with lies and deceit can the CDN do this. With this gift the 150 IQ jerks are nothing but used toilet paper compared to you and all the others that have worked for their true selves.

      So many have used what they have learned from their tragic childhoods and put it to use helping others, Thank You Joey for so much, you share so freely and am truly moved by your giving. I remember one of your post long ago you pledged to educated and share your knowledge with as many as possible.

      Joey, you took back your life as painful as it is and was and choose the high road not the low road of becoming a CDNSP and you are very intelligent too. You decided to help others.

      Lucy, you have the strength and love of a strong survivor, you spread hope and encouragement. All of you shed light onto darkness and with this light the CDNSP will flee and wither.

      Blessings to all

      1. BOTV

        I try to not get TOTALLY consumed by the BS these people throw us. We can’t let it consume our entire day and mind. Believe me, my mind is pretty consumed right now – so much to do. And the worry – the worry gets me nowhere but to the bathroom a bunch of time (tummy ache). How to stop the worry? I wish I knew. It’s the worry of what might come – the not knowing, the what-ifs . It really sucks. But I’ll fight that *****. I know how he thinks. That is my defense – I know how he thinks.
        He is on a major roll right now. He’s paying for the ruckus he has caused. It’s come back to bite him. I am no longer the chump he once knew. Have you ever been FED UP? Well, I am FED UP with his tricks.
        I have learned so much here. It’s not the pretty house that matters and all that stuff. It’s peace of mind. (of course a shower would help – I can’t kid myself). My lifestyle has changed drastically, financially and house-wise.
        But last night – I sat outside with my BF on lawn chairs, looking at the sun set and the moon and taught my grandson how to catch lightening bugs. We put them in a jar. And I thought The Husband would have never done such a simple enjoyable evening with me. I’d have been by myself, with him watching TV or frequenting his casinos or prostitutes. or whatever nasty thing he did. But the new BF does. He sits with me and actually enjoys my company. (who knew?) . He likes those simple pleasures and I’m finally finding that I do too.
        BTOV I know you have several things you enjoy. You got to keep doing them!

        1. Lucy,
          I get so bogged down from these mentally disturbed adult children that have severe behavioral problems. It gets difficult because the CD individuals interfere with the medical decisions I make for my sis. Its and ongoing struggle with them and it all boils down to Control.

          My CD siblings can’t stand that I am the APOA for my sis and my mother. The one CD sister actually made DR. appointments for my sis without my knowledge and it is all F-uped, excuse my language. I had to call the Dr. office and explain if they rendered services they legally could not charge Medicare because I did not authorize payment, therefore, they need to charge the individual (CD Sis) for payment.

          It is just a mess, then the CD Sis manipulates the other CD Sis’ and it really gets nutty. I am going to discuss with social services and my attorney. Nuts are nuts that are nuts that can make everyone nuts. So, if I stand my ground they can get very nasty. Several years ago I had to get a restraining order because the one actually jumped on me and grabbed my throat. This is a whole story in itself.

          This sis actually, admitted to having children so they could take care of her in her in old age. When you realize and it is hard to wrap your head around the thought, that a person of 18 years old could pre-think to have children to benefit them in old age.

          In reality I see it as planning and making your own slaves. Two of the 3 daughters live with her in the BF’s duplex and no one does anything without consulting the Queen Bee. She is proud of this fact. The sis that is the sneakiest was a former JW for 20 years. Talk about someone that can twist a word out of context.

          Please, I am going to rip my hair out. Yes, I am going to move far away where no one can find me. Now I am deluding myself, I guess anyone can find one relatively easy nowadays.

          1. Ever think of giving up the POA and let someone else do it or make them a ward of the state, having a judge appoint someone? Dang. You have a job I’d never want. Maybe there is a way out of being the POA. That is a lotnodncare giving you are doing and the one sis is t even thankful for your hard work and dedication.

          2. Lucy,
            Thought of that, I have been taking care of her for 15 years now and I promised her I would never leave her. If something happened to her I would never forgive myself. I am going to have all the funeral and other arrangement in order or so if she passes I will defer everything to the church. They will do the service and others provide the lunch and if no lunch to bad. I don’t care for funerals, I will have done the important job.

            I took care of my dad like this and no one came to see him for 10 years, they all showed up for the reading of the will after the funeral services. He left everything to the church and I never went to the funeral. I took care of him for a year before he died and had the POA for him too. My mom said I am the only trustworthy and responsible child.

            Hi Vera, if your still reading, I have thought of you many times taking care of your father. I hope you post again, you add a lot to the conversation and are missed. Take very good care and God bless.

        2. Lucy,
          I in the process of going through paperwork and its all mixed up. I need to get it all sorted out. There 4 things I need to get done. I will just tell you the lawyers like these kind of divorces, they love conflict because they can rack up and enormous fees. There are several loose ends I need to tie up.

          I literally can vomit when I start to deal with this stuff. I can tell you I am going to get it done. One step at a time, my Dr. says “Don’t let the Bastards get you down, if they throw lemons make lemonade” and “Living Life Well is the Best Revenge.” Its not easy when you deal with the chronic pain but taking your life back and standing up for yourself is rewarding and I have been told “That which does not kill you will make you stronger.”

          I have a nice friend too, simple and good like your friend. Its hard because the CD would sit and watch the sunset, Mr. Hyde was always lurking in the shadows.

          Lucy, thank you for the encouragement, many times one forgets those things. It’s been so long since I have taken care of myself in the right way. Firm boundaries is a must and the moment one does not treat me with dignity and respect, out the door.

          I walked outside and I thought how peaceful, I dont answer to anyone but myself. Regardless, if he changed overnight so to speak, I cannot stand the thought of hearing his voice. Its so peaceful and yes my friend is so very good to me. He worries and looks up all the things that may help my pain. He comes over and fixes anything that’s broke. He is a dear heart and I am taking it slow.

          In the end he may not be the one for me, however, we are building a good relationship of give and take. When you have someone that is so very kind you really realize how warped and selfish the MNCD is.

          You break away for something that is so toxic your whole body rebels.
          Hmmm…. vomiting and being sick to our stomach like this, our bodies are telling us something. I am so glad we got away, if we hadn’t do you realize how bad it would had gotten?

    1. Hi, Lucy,

      I’m here and doing fine. I’m glad to see you’re starting to see light at the end of your tunnel. You’re strong and secure and of good character. You have his modus operandi and know the tricks. You are going to be just fine. 🙂

        1. Hi Charlie, Suzi, TheresaK, LisaO
          Was worried about you too, my thoughts are of Jeannie too, having reread some of her posts my heart goes out to her. We are all Kindred Spirits. (((Hugs))) and Blessings

          I have to tell all you pet lovers, my little German Spitz rescue after having him for 1 year ventured off to the sunporch and sat looking out the open window. He has never done this before, he is like a pesky fly, it is heartwarming to know that he has built a level of trust and confidence to venture off on his own in the house. So much joy from this little furball.

  5. Andy,

    I totally understand your reasoning of not divorcing until you know 100 percent sure that it’s not a workable, feasible marriage. I did the same thing. Went to counseling to see if the marriage could be saved. Six weeks later I walked out knowing 100% that I was done, and have never regretted it, never looked back. You will know when it’s over and you will have no regrets you did the right thing.
    Yours is complicated because you have a sweet girl. That pulls at the heartstrings for sure.
    I’ve been married 30+ years. Before I even met a new man, I knew I did want a man in my life, a good companion, but THIS time I would have to have emotional intimacy, something my marriage lacked and I craved. And believe me, it was hard for me to be open with a man after leaving a marriage. I was not used to it. I was used to being shut off and shut down. I don’t have time or energy for any BS nonsense lying character disturbed POS.
    You deserve a good woman, and there are plenty out there. That lying crap – once a liar you can never believe them, even when they are telling the truth. Everything has to be backed up with documents or whatever. No way to live a life.

    1. There is one quote that I recently read related to two faced people (a worse type of liar, in my opinion):

      I hate two-faced people, it makes it harder for me to decide which side to slap first.

  6. Lucy and all,

    The lying part really resonates with me. The ex just lied so much about me. At the same time, he tried to force me to stay in the marriage. If I were so bad why would he want me? Well, I finally figured out I wasn’t so bad and I was most times pretty darned good for him and his quest for superiority. I could move in social circles that he did not know how. I taught him. He knew that was useful. I also cleaning up his messes….lost jobs, his many eye problems…he will need transplants at some time and I really think he thinks I am going to care for him. JEEZ! What do you do with these people.

    I met a very nice lady in my apartment complex that lives with her boyfriend. She has just purchased the family home and she is terrified that her brother, sister and nephew will want to move in. She has been giving them money, food, a free place to live forever and now she wants to stop. She is terrified that now that she is the owner of her deceased mother’s home that the other family members are going to be knocking on her door relentlessly.

    She told me that her sister just called wanting money. This lady doesn’t have a lot of money to give but she gives anyway. I told her to stop but she says she can’t let them starve.

    Do we see a pattern here?! I told her to stop enabling them and do not under any circumstances let them in your home. It is no longer your mother’s home (whom allowed the adult druggy children a free ride to live in the house rent free and come and go as they please). Now the sibs are going to want the same free ride.

    But she says she feels so guilty!!!!!

    Lord, do we see a pattern here.? The only thing that may stop these leeches is that my buddy does not want to lose her boyfriend (6 yrs) because the constant drain on their finances and the drama.

    I have been there. I cut my sister off after my mother died. My sister and brother were the golden children and it did not matter what they did or did not do they still held the mantle of perfection. At least they kept good jobs but the care taking of my mother and father was laid on my shoulders. As a therapist said to me….you took on the responsibility of your parents and your sister and brother let you do it. I have no want to see or hear from any of them. When my narc mother died, I released myself from my narc sister and narc brother. They don’t get it and probably never will. I do not care.

    I will find my family out side of blood is thicker than water. BS!

    I will support my new buddy, but she has got a lot of separating to do with her sibs. She is so afraid they are going to starve. I told her there are all sorts of food pantries and shelters that feed people and that street people know just where they are…guess it is just easier to call up your sister and give her a said sop story so she will soak up the tears with money.

    One good thing….she told them she is not giving them any more money. And she has not told them yet that she is now the owner of the family home. Watch the fur fly then. But she has to stand her ground. I told her if she really feels that they will starve without her, leave a care package on the front steps. Once a week. Don’t answer the door.

    Let’s see how long that will last. Not long….I am sure.

    Theresa Maria

    And wish me luck….I have an interview with a big bank on Tuesday. Face to face with the manager of the branch…so that is promising.

    1. Hi TheresaK, Joey, & Andy, Hi Lucy and how is Suzi and Charlie.

      TheresaK I am praying for you and the your new friend, thats what we are here for to reach out to others. I hope she realizes how luck she is to have you.

      Thanks Andy for the post it clarified where you are at. The input of what you see on the male side. I would tend to agree the amount of women N are underestimated, they hide well behind tears and are move covert and seductive in their pathology.

      Thanks, joey, I will watch, its like when you step on an ant, you look at it and don’t give it another thought. Humans act that way towards other persons, Psychopaths, and now they are reduced to anti social. Humans watch others starving to death and think nothing of it. People are becoming more and more desensitized to the needs of others. People who look to see another $0 beside their financial statement they could never spend in a lifetime but will watch their fellow man starve to death.

    2. Good luck TheresaK for your interview.

      I think you gave a good advice to your friend… Once a week, don’t answer the door. That will separate the real needy from entitled suckers.

  7. Theresa M
    Good luck with the job interview.
    I just got all uptight reading about your neighbor’s dilemma. If she feels guilty she will most probably cave. They should feel guilty for burdening her. But that isn’t the way life works, does it? Poor girl needs develop a solid firm foundation so she isn’t further trampled on. She allows it. So there they are.
    Life would be sweet WITHOUT THESE LEACHES IN OUR LIVES! They are exhausting.

    1. Lucy,
      The leeches suck our life blood out of us and when they are done throw us to the side and go on to their way to feed upon their next host.

  8. Hi, Lucy,

    Sorry to worry you. I have been pretty quiet. Couple of reasons:

    1. This topic was very deep and very aptly timed for me. I’ve been doing a lot of reflecting and I needed some time to do it quietly.

    2. I’ve been busy with the never ending landscape project, behavior calls and a number of other items that fall behind in all the chaos and confusion.

    3. Chaos and fighting has intensified, it’s been a rough five days, Tricks has been on a roll.

    4. And, I’m a bit confused and concerned about a few things that have occurred through the postings and comments and needed to step back a bit for some perspective.

    1. How have you been, Lucy? I’ve been following along and it sounds like you are in a very positive time right now. I am truly happy and hope it’s a long stretch of well being for you. You definitely deserve it. 🙂

      1. I’m chugging along. I have bad days as well. Some days my stomach aches and I catch myself doing the jaw clenching, all stress related. Then I speak with attorney and my mind eases. The ugly life takes a toll health-wise. I read my body well and know when it’s in overload. Thank goodness I can make a comeback – till the next onslaught of BS.

    2. Charlie,

      Ok. I’m glad to hear from you.
      I realize your life is difficult, as is many of ours. We try to help each other as best we can, because we are all going through/been through the hell of being connected to a CD. We just try to advise on what has/has not worked for us. Every case is different. I think to sum it up briefly the CDs in this world are life suckers/destroyers and it is difficult to take one’s life back, but it can be and has been done. I’m doing it. Have been for two years. Still fighting the fight.
      You take care my friend.

  9. Lucy,

    Ahh, I know the ugly life well, my friend. I am familiar with the upset and knotted stomach, the clenched jaw, and the tension headaches and stiff, locked up muscles. It’s awesome.

    You are nearing the end of the dark tunnel so hang in there. Have you thought about yoga? It’s been recommended a number of times to me for stress and tension. If I can ever get my act together I would really like to try it.

  10. Lucy,

    I’ve been working hard on figuring him out. How does he think, how does his mind work, what’s his perspective. I do the same thing when I’m working with animals. What I’m learning and figuring out causes me to have a look of disgust on my face every time I think of him or deal with him. I keep thinking if I keep making this face so much it’s going to get stuck there. 🙂

    He’s back to reading a book by Burgo on narcissism (it’s a manipulative tactic – giving assent would be my guess, see he’s working on improvements but, of course, nothing changes.) He brought up how non narcissist, empathetic, compassionate people have no empathy or compassion for narcissists or psychopathsand how unkind we are. (We’re walking in the twilight zone.).

    My response was simple. Non narcissist, compassionate, empathetic people who have experienced and understand the mentality of narcissists and psychopaths know empathy and compassion is the perceived weaknesses / vulnerability those characters abuse and exploit just as you’re trying to do now. It’s a consistent pattern in these boundary fights we keep having that if I show an ounce of compassion you will proceed to do what you want, how you want, when you want and run me and my boundaries over without a second thought. My compassion to you is permission for you to proceed as usual. You’re the give an inch, take a mile guy and my compassion is giving a really big inch.

    It’s really interesting to watch how compassion used with another pro social compassionate person begets compassion (even if the person doesn’t really want to be compassionate, they just can’t seem to help themselves in responding to it) and the narcissist is unmoved emotionally and will proceed to manipulate and exploit that vulnerability.

  11. This is really good….Thank y’all and I’m sorry for everything…this just motivates for a huge change…..anything is possible and everyone deserves a chance….God gives many

  12. James,

    Welcome and working to improve oneself is a noble and worthy undertaking and something that is a life long endeavor. Acknowledging, apologizing, and righting past wrongs with the people harmed is a good start to real change. I wish you well.

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