The Grateful Character Feels Obliged

Narcissists harbor strong attitudes of entitlement. Some think they deserve things merely because they exist. Others believe they’re so “special” or “superior” that they warrant favored treatment. Narcissists tend to feel the world owes them. They rarely feel obliged in any way because having a sense of obligation is the exact opposite of harboring feelings of entitlement. And as I’ve learned through years of clinical case study and we’re now coming to realize through empirical research, you can’t develop a sense of obligation unless you first feel grateful. Gratitude is the psychological “nursery” as it were of developing a sense of social obligation.  So in the course of character development, it’s crucial that a person come to some appreciation for all they’ve been given in life and all of the various other reasons they have to be grateful.  The grateful character feels obliged, not entitled.  And the grateful character pays his or her debts (for more on the psychology of gratitude see the article: Thanksgiving and the Psychology of Gratitude).

Developing proper gratitude and avoiding feeling of entitlement is at heart a relational issue.  And life is full of realationships.  We have a relationship with the world around us.  We have relationships with one another.  Most especially, we have a relationship with a “higher power,” however we might conceive of that power.  How we conduct ourselves within our various relationships defines our character.  It’s very hard for narcissists to even conceive of a power greater than themselves, because their self-esteem is so pathologically out of balance. It’s even harder for them to feel beholding in any way to any kind of higher power or authority.  As a famous psychologist who pioneered the study of the twisted thinking patterns and attitudes of disturbed characters once remarked, they are truly “legends in their own minds.” Why should they feel indebted to anyone or anything if they can’t even imagine anyone or anything greater than themselves? And without a doubt the same conundrum presents itself in all their relationships, which is why relationships with a narcissist end up being so shallow, exploitatitive, and sometimes abusive.

In Character Disturbance, one of the “10 Commandments” I advocate for developing  sound character in our young folks is instilling in them a proper sense of appreciation for all they’ve been given so that they cultivate a sense of obligation to give something back, and most especially, to give of themselves.  The person who humbly appreciates that we’re not entitled to anything in this world – not even a single breath – feels obligated to show appreciation for the life they have and all the many other gifts they’ve been given.  And they do so by making something of themselves and then giving of themselves for the betterment of all.  Of course, teaching this cructial task is very difficult when a person either comes from a place of real depravity or has been overly indulged. Either unfortunate circumstance can make the task of acquiring proper gratitude an exceptional challenge. Still, it’s a challenge that must be both met and successfully mastered if one is to develop sound character.

Character Matters will again be a live broadcast this Sunday, February 28, at 7 pm Eastern time.  And we’ll be discussing these and other matters in view of some of the principles I advance in my book The Judas Syndrome.

SPECIAL NOTE TO THE COMMENTATORS

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A big announcment is coming next week about the imminent release of my new book with Dr. Kathy Armistead, “How Did We End Up Here?” So stay tuned.

195 thoughts on “The Grateful Character Feels Obliged

  1. My sister has her ENTITLEMENT attitude down to a tee. She is very covert about it. I always thought that she was joking because she is very extreme. Once I found out what kind of monster I was dealing with I realized she meant every selfish word.

    1. You wonder how siblings being raised in the same environment can develop strikingly differences in character. What do you think makes this possible?

      1. I know that my psycho sister was always the golden child. She was always very spoiled. I can also definitely say that she had quite a demonic look from birth. She has very evil eyes. She has that same look about her when she is being manipulative and vindictive as someone trying to portray the devil in the movies. I think a lot of times people were scared of her and just let her do whatever she wanted to. I think she always loved being evil.

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          1. That’s the look!! It is really scary. It is really strange to see the look on a six month old child.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          2. Hi Lucy and Suzie Q,

            Once again i hear the evil tag being used for these people, it’s SO common i think there is really something to this, it’s more than just a really dark expression on the face, people describe an otherworldly atmosphere and the pupils turning black.

            No doubt Tim will be along to ‘rationalize me’, lol, enjoy reading his posts:)

          3. I seriously believe demons are among us (there are tons!) I have seen my malignant mommy narc turn into the co-owner of hell. The scale of toxic people is quite large and at any given time they can slide to the next level.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          4. I got some things calling me for some time, so it looks like I’ll be posting slightly less frequently.

            Jackie, it’s funny you say “rationalise” you. I guess I do. 😀

  2. Thank you George, for everything you are doing. Hearing your words validates my experiences. I hope some day that I’ll be able to find peace in this world where I was trained to be a slave for someone else’s purpose. Nearing 40, this is a painful realization. My parents never loved me for me, but only me when I made them look and feel better. For almost 40 years, I lived the life of someone who only existed to excel in the things that made his parents smile. When I was hit with several tragedies at once and disintegrated, they ignored me. Turned against me. Told me I was lazy and shameful.

    You really don’t exist to a narcissist on a continuum. Your character doesn’t exist. Your heart and sensitivity don’t exist. The moment they need to feel better because of something “bad” you did, you will instantly find themselves destroying your reputation, or casting themselves as a martyr. For anyone else out there who has had this happen to them– you are not alone, and you are stronger than you realize. You will find a real, genuine love. And I’m sorry.

    1. Thanks for those encouraging words. I experienced a similar experience with narcissistic family members and when I was at my lowest, they were not there for me …. only marginally, to be fair, but when my life fell through the cracks, the insensitivity and neglect was apparent. Will never forget the horrific emotions but have grown stronger … I give God all the credit for getting me through to the other side …. good things to come!!!

  3. Speaking of entitlement…

    The ex, who popped up on my FaceBook link, saying he wanted me to befriend him a little while ago…well, the other shoe just dropped.

    For those that do not know, he is a doctor for whom has a real problem keeping a job. One of the various reasons he is now an ex. In the last year and 1/2 he began attending the Catholic church, the church he was raised in as a child. Never in all the time we knew each other was he interested to attend but this was a change. One, in which, I had a suspicion about but I could not fathom this turn about in his “faith.”

    I have found out that he has been hired by a faith based (Catholic) hospital in the northern part of the USA and a place that before we had divorced he would never have considered.

    I wondered why he had so many Catholic medals around his neck…even putting one on the dog. When I saw him last he asked that I put them around his neck because they had been taken off when he had surgery. Why he felt I had to do when he was quite capable of attaching the clasps himself seems such a mystery but not so much when one looks at the underlying agenda (all pun intended).

    1. He wants me to believe he is now a true card carrying Catholic Christian
    2. He wants me to do tasks that are servant oriented as in dressing him in his Catholism finery (He had no less than three Catholic saint medals around his neck) I figure no vampire would go near him!
    3. He was pushing to get this job in a Catholic faith based organization

    Voila! Got the job at the Catholic hospital!

    So did he REALLY become a true Christian. Hardly.

    Lord, have mercy on us all. What that man will stoop to to get what he wants.

    Talk about a sense of entitlement. He is brazen enough to pretend to be a devout to get a job. Personally, I would be scared to bring on spiritual reprecussions of a move against the soul. But that is just me. I don’t use God for my own personal agenda.

    But he can and did. I think it is creepy. But then again…it is not the first time religion has been used to obtain worldly goods.

    Theresa Maria

    1. Hi Teresa K,

      You see this behaviour is exactly what i’m talking about, they can be bloody STRANGE people. The things they do; i think it was Joey (forgive me Joey if i am mistaken) that said his Brother became a Security Guard called Yeti??

      The Mask of Sanity was filled with these people and their bizarre behaviour.

      Is it the lack of inhibition?

    2. I am so sad to say that trying to manipulate people by using the church is very common. It seems to be so programed into people that if you see someone sitting in church then he/she is a great person. Hahahaha….

      Sent from Outlook Mobile

        1. I really hope so. My malignant mommy narc is a pastor’s daughter and was in church mostly all of her life. Her mother used the same cover. I can not believe that so many people have fallen for it.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

    3. Oh boy he’s a piece of work isn’t he? And you are so on time to his true intentions. You will not be fooled by him again. It’s somewhat like watching a movie isn’t it? The things some people do is so surreal.

    4. My ex has worn a gold cross necklace most of his life. It is just for show. There is nothing Christian about him. Those who don’t know the real him would take that to mean he was.

      1. It is funny that you say that because I have often thought that same thing about most people!! Great point!

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  4. When the mother was diagnosed with cancer. I was the only one to show any concern.
    I hoped the mother would value/appreciate me (One armed bandit. That last coin Sucker). What I got was contempt. She did not want my respecful ,Conscientiousness. She told me “rammed down her throat”. When I became distressed at her contemptuous behaviour, she would YAWN and torment me. This would make her smerk.I broke down. This gave her a great deal of pleasure. I started to suffer with panic attacks and became agoraphobic as a result.

    1. Joey,
      I am really sorry to read about what you have gone through, I do understand. At the time you started posting, I had been away for awhile. So in essence I missed your story. Would you mind if I asked what brings on your attacks? I am familiar with panic attacks.

      1. Joey,

        I hope you don’t mind I wrote this for you rather quickly, you touched a soft place in my heart. You wrote such beautiful poetry last week for me. You are indeed a kindred spirit.

        Oh, my Joey don’t you cry
        Don’t you know your all the things I could never be.
        I look in your eyes and see little old me
        Somewhere I got lost along the way, never to be the real me.

        Oh, my Joey don’t you cry,
        Because if you do I might surely die.
        Your tears remind me I have none
        You posses them all, the only one.

        Oh, my Joey don’t you know
        Don’t you know all the goodness lies within you and in me I have none.
        I know you see me for who I am
        It makes me, oh, so very mad.

        Oh Joey, don’t you cry
        Your everything I wished I could had been
        In the end you still cry for decrepit me
        that destroyed lives because it suited me.

        You see my sick tormented mind and
        still you stay lovingly at my side.
        For this I hate more than anything
        It only reinforces my false self and I know I must hide.

        For deep inside a tear is shed
        For what I knew I could had been
        I look at you and you are me
        The one I wished I could truly be.

        So Joey, Oh, my Joey,
        Dont cry for me.
        A choice I made all on my own
        To be who I am and that alone.

        Oh, my Joey, if only I could
        shed this skin for a new one I would
        you see I lied and cheated so long
        I don’t know where I begin and you belong.

        I choose to be who I am and that I will remain
        To be who I am and that alone
        No matter, I will not show my true self to anyone
        I will be forever the woman of stone.

        I know she is your mother, I wish I could tell you about mine but here is not the place. We all have endured such heartache and live with so much brokenness. Hopefully, over time we may find healing here. (Big Hugs)

        Blessings

        1. My god BTOV, that was beautiful:) It could be the lyrics of a song, i nominate Joan Baez as the vocalist in her 60’s period.

          You are most certainly NOT the Woman of Stone ok?

          Woman of Stone,
          Standing darkly against the ever changing light,
          Marram grass surrendering to the breeze,
          At my feet.

          Shadows of the earth dance and flit and change,
          Their verses change with every hour,
          Touched by invitation, the Child is crying,
          I cannot look into her face.

          I stay rooted,
          Cold and hard and mute,
          The shell is cracking, life is growing,
          within the spaces.

          The rupture is sweet, change imposed,
          The torment invading, it’s source unknown,
          Yielding to the music of my beginning,
          The tears of the Child flow at last.

          For you BTOV:)

      2. I used to get tension in the back of my head, then an uneasy feeling, then a sense that I was going to have or was having a stroke. When I shook with fear I would sweat like hell. Then I would have to run for a safe place. If I was far from a safe place, the panic would continue. I had one last for over an hour. I was far from a safe place.

    2. Joey,

      Omg.. I am sorry that you had to deal with this. Things never change with them. I have been around so many of my aging relatives and I have seen the same thing. I even had a relative in a hospice and he was treated like a joke. I think that I went home to cry after going to see him each day.

      I’m sad that you dealt with this at such a trying time.

      Sent from Outlook Mobile

      1. Hi Susie Q, Theresa,

        How did your surgery turn out? I have been praying for you and am glad you are back.

        Theresa, Glad you are back too, we were all discussing since we are getting to know one another, if possibly before discontinuing posting just a brief post to let us know you are fine and retiring of sorts from posting.

        GG, I read back on some of your posts, you have always been very to the point on you comments and very good ones at that.

        I still find it rather odd writing to and unknown into the wild blue yonder and getting a real life response with feeling and depth.

        So glad to hear from all and blessings.

        1. To all,
          I think there is nothing more despicable than one hiding behind religion, and note I said religion. Speaking for myself I am a christian. There are many faiths and I will say that I do believe to an extent mine has more basis than others and at the same time I respect others rights to feel the same way about their faith. I am not arguing religion.

          I will say it was said in the bible you will know a true believer “by their fruits.” I would say this would hold true of many faiths. I believe the “fruits” are what Dr. Simon is talking about when he refers to individual character and character speaks to all people.

          I am afraid that the most degenerate of the CDMNSP hide behind religion and in politics. And by that I mean all religions are a party to this. Unfortunately, it makes the good and true believers look bad. Remember, the CD are deceitful and monumental liars, what better place to hide than behind the cloak of religion to use and abuse to steal and destroy.

          I say lets weed out everyone of these perverted individuals and hold them accountable. Demand that laws are reinforced and make no exception even if it is our own family members.

          For, to long, the CD have torn and divided this nation as a people using race, religion, financial barriors and what not to keep us divided so they can do their dirty deeds destroying our families, communities and our country.

          I believe I made many mistakes in my own moral character and judgements in the past. Nothing as significant as the CD’s in my life but nonetheless I have accountability too. I am a work in progress and have so much work to do. At the same time I hope I am able to help others as others have helped me.

          I say expose, expose, everyone of the CD that cross our paths, in a kind and honest way, especially, in the churches where these individuals lurk. Who knows, we may even change a heart or help one on the road to decency and recovery, one at a time.

          The truth will set us free and knowledge is power, I sure wish I knew what I do today, so many things would be different, so many lives would had turned out different. I know I can’t change the past, however, I do have a say so in the future.

          I know one thing, we have a strong/honest captain at the wheel, a dedicated crew and a solid anchor. With our faith in God, I believe we can make a difference.

          Blessings

          1. Hi BTOV,

            I think it’s just that Christianity is the dominant religion in America so it’s going to be over represented by charlatans, there’s plenty of fake Guru’s in India i suppose.

            Does anyone remember Jimmy Swaggart? His crying and stumbling asking for forgiveness was hilarious.

          2. I agree they are the lowest life form. I would hate to be the one standing in front of God on judgement day explaining how I used his name and church for such evil. I don’t know if you have facebook but I belong to a group on there called SOUTHLAKE CHRISTIAN COUNSELING. They are out of Texas and Shannon, the owner addresses this topic a lot.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          3. Funny someone should mention Jimmy Swaggart. My husband used him as an example when he was trying to explain things to me. I told him that people consider him a charlatan, and was that the way he wanted to be remembered. He just stared at me.

          4. Jackie,

            Did you notice my link? Haven’t seen you commenting, so I sorta jumped to conclusions.

            I really hope you like it, because more than obviously I’m fond of that particular site I linked to and it seemed connected to what you just said(unless that was just my inner logic making connections? lol).

        2. You must have me confused with someone else. I never had surgery. I did have MRSA and I was in the hospital for a few days pulling ng around an IV stand full of antibiotics. That was rough. I could never go anywhere fast. I caught it on EVERYTHING. Thank the Lord everything went smoothly. People sometimes die from MRSA.

          I really didn’t mean to stay off the blog for so long but I quit getting it in my inbox. I finally got things figured out. I’m glad I am back. I am the victim of a horrible smear campaign here in this small town and I don’t talk to anyone. I’m not really sad that I don’t have these simple minded individuals in my corner but I am really glad to be back on here where people actually support and encourage each other!! It is always good to find people who take time out to understand instead of judge. PRIME EXAMPLE- yesterday was my son’s birthday and he wanted to go and see the new movie RISEN. I took him to the theatre in the biggest town where it was playing. We were sitting down watching the movie and I got an Email. My phone jingled a little bit. I HAD FORGOTTEN TO TURN OFF MY PHONE. I felt sad that I had interrupted everyone’s movie. My son quickly turned it off for me. We finished the movie. (I liked it) it was about 2 hours long. At the end of the movie when we were all walking out a toxic individual turned around and flipped off the crowd and yelled, “Hey idiot, turn off your freaked phone next time!” The man behind me just replied that he had a very Christian attitude!! My son turned to me and asked why he did that. I just said that he was not being very nice and people should not be so ready to judge because we have no idea what is going on in someone’s life. I explained to my son that it would have been an issue if I was sitting there talking on my phone and interrupting everyone.
          My first husband did that and belittled waiters so badly that I hated to go out with him. He felt like he was superior and entitled to receive personal service. My second husband wasn’t much better. He cussed out a high school boy working at the drive thru window and I wanted to climb under the car seat. All the losers find me!! Hahahaha…. Anyway, I am so glad to be back.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

          1. Susie Q,

            What’s the level of hygiene like in your Hospitals? Did you catch it there?

            In England quite a few people have caught MRSA actually IN the Hospital. I was in our local Hospital, Homerton, and one day i noticed a load of ants crawling over some cakes my other half had left me, i asked a Nurse what was going on, and she replied “Well, it IS Summer”, and nothing was done!

            I didn’t eat the cakes……

          2. I am almost certain that I caught it in my mother’s house. She is a hoarder and prides herself in being dirty. I offered to clean her bathroom and she started crying. She is a very malignant and sadistic psychopath. She uses this as her basis for brainwashing and control. I think that she also tries to get people sick or dying this way also. My dad had MRSA on and off for two years and once he was in the hospital for six weeks. I don’t think that she was clean enough to ever get rid of the germs.

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          3. You had the ng tube? I did for 7 days – worst ordeal of my life
            What a jerk shouting out about the phone. You forgot to turn it off no big deal. That was a bully screaming at you.

          4. Yup,he was quite the jerk. I can see my son is starting to think a lot about people’s actuins. I try to use all the different negative experiences and turn then into lessons for him.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

  5. I have purchased my own apartment and moved out.
    In 1992 the grandmother died. I asked the mother why I could not spend any time with grandmother. The mother said “You weren’t F#####$g wanted you C##t.

    I stayed for another 20 yrs.

    Every time I spoke to her about this I got ” Pay a few bills will yer” or “there’s the door” or at the end ” Will you shut your F###### Mouth you W###k## for F### sake for F###’s sake you W##k## for F###’s sake. This is repeated for about 3 to 10 time over and over again. These are the methods that she uses to avoid all her actions through out my entire life.
    Believe me as far as the world at large is concerned thank’s to the mother ,brother, niece ,nephew .I AM THE MONSTER.
    I have said this before and ” Thank You Dr Simon” I now COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING AND IT IS NOT MY FAULTTTT. EEEVVVEEEERRR never ever was and never ever will be. On her wedding day it was filmed on 8mm. You can see her Slamming her fist onto the roof of the car(no sound). The father looks confused. This is not temper “BUT AGGRESSION.”
    The only resolution I can have is ” If I treated the mother so bad, Find some one to treat her better and Do not ever,ever report back to me if there are problems.

    1. Joey, do I unerstand correctly that your mother could even be overtly, publicly aggressive? And people didn’t see that for what it is?! If that’s so, then jeez.

        1. Thought so, your mention of Pam Ayres and Stuart Hall (he was in the News again just a day after your post about him, and finally, your use of a certain swear word that only we English use:)

    2. Joey
      Im sorry. I wish someone would have stepped in and helped you out of that cruel environment. I’m glad you’re here. I’d not waste another second with that woman.

  6. Hi Everyone!

    I am sorry that I did not tell you that I would not be posting for awhile. I have been lurking, however, reading the posts from others.

    I have to say…coming here is a two edged sword for me. On the one side I am opening up to you what was the strangeness of my marriage, whether the ex was what we think, even now that I am pretty clear on how manipulative and without mercy he is I still have times when I just can’t wrap my head around the extent of it. It just seems too awful to be true! And it scares me that I had a relationship with this person going on twenty years (not all within a marriage).

    I am grateful that I am able to post here when I get a new level of awareness of the ex’s behavior. So many just would not believe me. But you do. That is the other side of the sword. A new level of awareness. This new level does not come without a great deal of pain that I have trouble managing. It is like I have to go back time and again to sift through all the events to try to understand. But understand what!? Could I not just say…JEEZ! What a nutter…good thing I got out. But no…I have to understand how I came to love someone that is so messed up. So without mercy. Was I really that naïve?

    To the poster that mentioned the pupils of the eyes becoming very large and black…the ex’s eyes would do that when he was angry or really stressed out. His eyes are blue but the pupils would fill the blue until there wasn’t any blue left. Talk about strange.

    See, no one else has every shown this pupil thing to me. Only he had that trait of all the persons I have met in my life. And this is the first place that this trait has ever been mentioned that I have come across.

    Theresa Maria

    1. Jackie
      Several posters have talked about the change in the eyes throughout the blog.. It has be said the eyes are the pathway to the soul. I too experienced this phenomena, the individuals I know their eyes are blue, green and brown. When they are angry especially easy to see on the colored eyes they would become almost black or the they would almost appear like crystals. The brown would turn completely black. The eyes had a erie sparkle to them.

      Another odd thing was they could look at you and the eyes appeared as if you could see right through them, into their being and nothing was there. At these times when you experience this I would have a very strange feeling of discomfort. At other times when they would sit their and they stare off into wherever they go, there appears to be a blank stare into nowhere.

      The glare is another whole pandora’s box. I was out with someone last night who had met someone they were highly interested in and they started to tell me of the rages this person would go into with little or no reason. They stopped seeing the person because when they experienced this the feeling was so unsettling they felt they had to get away from this person. Then they expressed the most unsettling part of the experience was the wild glaring, sparkling of the the eyes turning completely black. Said they never saw anything like it.

      Yes, the eyes reveal what is comprised of and fills their souls.

      1. BTOV i’ve heard about that blank stare, i’ve read it appears when they either decide that they cannot be bothered keeping the mask on or there is nothing more they want from you; i suppose it could be two reasons in one at times.

        How utterly wicked to just see other human beings as supplies of resources, whether that be food, money, a home, sex, a contact for career advancement, or as Narcissistic supply.

      2. BTOV could you explain a bit more about seeing nothing there and seeing right through them when they looked at you?

        Sounds extremely chilling.

    2. Hello Maria,
      I think that even in character disturbed people you can find something to love. We are all Gods creatures.
      I know that there were things that were lovable in my ex. Sadly though there was character disturbance also and that when it reared its face (when things were not going as ex wanted or when there was no one around he wanted to impress)it was misery. The thing is they put on a mask the one they want you to believe when they are trying to charm and win you over. The mask slips little by little and by the time that you realize that the person you married is not the person that you married(the mask)they have done a considerable amount of damage. I married a man that had invented a history and nationality complete with ethnic meals and idioms. It turned out that he was of a different ethnic origin altogether. It turned out that he was not the kind supportive loving person the mask showed him to be. Later as I tried to get help for the craziness that I had lived I was labeled codependent. At first I was confused as I sorted through everything, but as I educated myself I refused to take responsibility for getting sucked in by someone that was showing me a different self. Why should or would I have experience with someone like that I had never personally encountered some one like that before someone that lived in recreated realities. By the time I left I was for sure struggling with which way was up. But codependent did not describe me although I had to first understand codependency to understand that I was not.
      I am an intelligent loving compassionate kind empathetic and strong person who is completely imperfect and knowing this makes room for the imperfections of others. That combined with a lack of experience with these types is what led me to not see what it was I was looking at.
      He did not let the mask slip until after I had had our first child. At first the mask would slip and he would put it right back on but that changed and I got to see more and more of the silver back gorilla hidden behind the mask.
      I do believe that there a qualities within us that these types of characters are adept at recognizing. Seeing good in others compassion empathy kindness demureness honesty honor……… these are all things that can be exploited in the naive and inexperienced to character disturbance.
      I may have been conned but not because I am codependent.
      I hope this helps.

      1. E,

        It sounds as though you have gained health emotionally. It’s scary that someone would create as much a façade as your ex did. And he chose you for your kindness and trustworthiness. What a jerk. Easy prey to him.
        Once during a counseling session my STBX (seems never to be ex at the rate it’s going) said “___ will believe anything anyone tells her.” I looked at him and he looked at me — I thought you SOB — you preyed on it. I hate him for it.

        1. Easy prey………what a perfect way to describe it. I tend to use the word target because I do not like to be a “victim”…..but prey is how they see their targets.

          1. I think prey is a good word because it puts emphasis on them as a predator.

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      2. We were all chosen to be victims for the same reason. The toxic narcs see us all as weak individuals that need to be destroyed. The fact the we have made it out the other side says quite a different thing. I have yet to find something lovable in my psycho sister. My dysfunctional family has all come together for the last six years to try to get me to commit suicide. After I divorced my violent psychopath husband then my family took over to drill the knife a little deeper. I was a single mother raising three kids by myself and they refused to send me any money or buy anything for the kids. I lost my house and went bankrupt. My family not only refused me any financial help but they also turned my two older kids against me. Once my daughter, who was the oldest child, went to college they took advantage of her sweet personality. They went the extra mile to make sure she was totally brainwashed and thought I was crazy.
        After that did not push me over the edge they started brainwashing my older son and got him to move out with his father and not talk to me for many years. That did not push me over the edge so they started a smear campaign against me. They went through all my facebook friends and lied to them and got them to ignore me and join in the fight to get me to commit suicide. I have zero tolerance for flying monkeys. They taught me how to stand alone and be very strong. My youngest son has gone through everything with me and our bond has become very strong. His faith is outstanding for a 12 year old. My daughter was killed in an accident. I didn’t get to talk to her before her death. I am not exactly sure that the narcs did not have something to do with it. I will always have lots of questions. I got through to the other side. I am very strong and my some is strong too.

        1. SusieQ,
          I agree I am not co-dependant…… I disagree, maybe you were chosen for that reason. I was chosen do to my being an empath, values and other strengths, and an enormous resolve he underestimated.
          He is still struggling to except that I can and will always stand my ground, while he snorts the fields like Nebuchadnezzar in a pitiful hardened heart of denial.

        2. Susie Q
          I am floored. What a mean evil group that is. Goodness. They sit around and plot. And what have they to gain? I cannot wrap my head around it you Are One Tough Cookie. And smart and have got their number. It still makes it so difficult. And I’m so sorry about your daughter. You’ve endured so much. Why do these people get so focused on destroying us? Can’t get a life of their own? It’s so sick.
          You have given me strength knowing life can be endured and you can come out on the other side. You just gave me a boost. Thank you. And a big hug for you and your son.

          1. Thanks so much!! I actually gain so much strength myself when I can help someone. I knew something was definitely wrong when I was growing up but I really had no idea how deep the demonic influence is. I am usually able to catch onto their bullshit before it gets too far along. Most of the time I can turn the things around on them. Jealousy and greed drive them. My malignant mommy narc loves to convince old or handicapped people that she is wonderful and trustworthy. After she gets them to sign over their estate to her then things change and she becomes ruthless.

            My son and I do a lot of praying. My dysfunctional parents have even mentioned suicide to me. They try hard to get me to turn on my son. I talk to my son and tell him that if they can separate us then they will have the upper hand.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

        3. Wow sounds so much like what I went through. My family did not like him or his behaviors which they often witnessed. Yet instead of rallying around me when I left they chose that time to enact their resentments (best description I can come up with) when they saw me at my lowest and scared. It reached a point where I no longer allow them into my life.
          Recently I had to speak with one of my brothers. He called me unforgiving. I asked him what I had not forgiven…….silence…….. They sit (my family) in judgment, I am unforgiving (among other things) yet none of them have anything they (in their minds) need to be forgiven by me for.
          That left my brother a bit dumbfounded.

          1. E,

            The forgiveness concept to me is complicated. It doesn’t help a relationship unless the issues is understood amongst the two and some type of change, if need be, is on course so that the act won’t keep repeating. Maybe forgiveness means peace of mind for the forgivee (my word). Forgiveness doesn’t mean everything is peachy and good, by any means. I guess it’s just a letting go.
            Anyway, family members can be a thorn in the side, for sure.

          2. I think what E meant was…

            If someone calls me unforgiving, then that person is expecting me to let go of something wrong done to me earlier. Other person is indirectly admitting to a mistake by blaming me to be unforgiving.

            Now it depends upon the exact situation:
            It will be wrong on my part to hold someone responsible for some small errors. But, in case of character disturbed, this normal forgiving nature provides exactly the cracks in a normal reasonable assertive person, that allow other problem characters to get away with their mistakes again and again.

        4. Susie Q
          I am so sorry to hear your story, you went through hell with them. In hearing stories of various individuals, there is one thing that has stood out in the deeply disturbed CDN in their families there are many suicides. I wonder if there has ever been a study on this phenomena.

          I hope you are in a much better place. The more I deal with these individuals the stronger I become. It seems now I have an uncanny ability to feel these individuals and they don’t even have to say much.

          I am glad you have your son. Keep him close and teach him the values and character Dr. Simon promotes.

          Blessings

          1. Btov,

            Yes, I have gone through complete hell with the narcs. Causing suicide seems like a fun game for them and they go through all the individuals that they can. My ex-psycho tried his best to get someone to go through with it. My dysfunctional family also tries their best also. I recently found a toxic member that I didn’t even consider before. She talked for a while and then it all came through. Omg…what a mess! I can also read a toxic individual after about two sentences. I really feel sorry for the individuals who feel that they have no other way out other than committing suicide. I have individuals in my family who have been victims of the excessive narcissism but go on to repeat the toxic cycle. Such a wicked web there is going on!!

            A research study concerning narcissistic families and suicide would be fantastic. I would be the first in line to read it. It is quite interesting to me because after my son was introduced into my toxic family he was very confused and he has mentioned to me several times that I have given him a tremendous amount of strength.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

    3. Hi Theresa,

      Dilated pupils signify receptivity and relaxation, I think. Bedroom eyes? I wonder if they dilate out of fear, for most people, too?

      I think anger usually causes the pupils to constrict or become smaller. I worked with a woman when I was in my early twenties, whose pupils would contact to dots, then expand to half fill her irises several times within a short conversation.

      I had the impression that she was both angry and frightened, in turns and her pupils were a give away.

      Some disordered people of the extreme type, experience lower blood pressure when they are aggressive. This has been measured. So maybe what would cause us stress, puts them at ease?

      1. LisaO,

        I always thought bedroom eyes were people with heavy upper lids, half asleep looking lol!

        Very interesting thoughts, it HAS been called ‘cold anger’ when shown by them.

        1. Jackie,

          I have noticed a difference in both of the demonic looks. I have seen the initial predator stare which can be confused for bedroom eyes when someone is trying to size the victim up to gain as much knowledge to use against them. Before healing I easily interpreted it as OMG HE WANTS ME. Now I know it as a demonic look of a monster.

          I have also seen brown eyes turn black. I saw this when my psycho ex husband was backing me into the corner to hit me. I have also seen blue eyes turn white as ice and get very intense. The shape of my father’s eyes would also change. He did this when he got very angry. Both are very scary.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

        2. Jackie,

          I have noticed a difference in the demonic looks. The one in question is often referred to as the predator stare. It can be confused for a look of desire. I worked at a truck stop and often the truckers would come in with the look. I guess they wanted me to get confused and think that it was a look of desire. I think they were hoping that I would.be a lot lizard… lmao. I was not amused in the least.

          I think that the look that you are referring to is the look a narc gets when they don’t get their way. I have seen brown eyes turn black and piercing. My psycho ex husband used to get this look when he backed me into a corner and tried to hit me. My dad’s eyes are normally light blue but when he is pissed off his eyes become ice white with a small black retina. Scary!! They are both very scary but since I had grown up seeing my father with his fits then I found some unknown comfort in my ex.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

  7. That was me, but there is reference to the black pupil on an earlier thread, i think it may have been Lucy; i have long heard about this sinister quirk among Psychopaths/Narcissists; i think it’s all part of the deal with them, including the slower heart beat, different skin conductivity, less sleep, no startle reflex, and so on.

  8. Id like to mention the topic of gratitude. I’ve been having much difficulty with my young adult daughter. As I raised her I did flood her and my son With time and attention and material things. She’s turned out to be a disrespectful, argumentative young adult. She has a baby and struggles and I help her with what I can and she still is ungracious and pretty much a jerk. She is a dirty slob not caring I’m trying to sell my house which she is living in with her baby and my CDN STBX I’ve told her time and again find someplace else to live. I spend hours cleaning her messes to ready my house for showings. Keep in mind I moved out cause I am going through divorce.
    Dr Simon mentioned gratitude. I believe my daughter lacks it and because so all these other negative ugly characteristics are showing, even manipulation and lying. I only tolerate her because she is my daughter and I love her little boy my grandson. But if she were not my daughter I would absolutely walk away fr her. Her character is ugly and worsening. I’m seeing a pattern – similarities with her CDN father.

    1. I have an older son and he lies and manipulates whenever he can. He has been abused by his psycho step-father and I would love to get him hrlp and turbo his life around. He lives with his narc father and has a tremendous amount of narc tendencies himself. He was abusive to my younger son when he lived with me. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help himself. Unfortunately, until he hits bottom he won’t change. Sometimes tough love is the answer.

      Sent from Outlook Mobile

      1. Don’t you love autocorrect? haha. Sorry to hear about your son. But I guess they mimick what they are raised with. My daughter uses certain phrases thinking it will produce guilty in me, which it doesn’t. I know every trick. I call her on it. I can’t change her. I’ve shown tough love. I’m just really tired of ungracious family members with attitude. There will be a time when I find peace. I hope soon.

        1. No judgements here!! I was talking to a lady just the other day that said her daughter had moved back in after her divorce. The daughter has two boys and just expects mom to raise them. She told me that if it wasn’t for the boys she would kick the daughter. That is the situation you are in. I’m the daughter of an ungrateful spoiled narc and no one ever believed me when I tried to tell them. I just got to tell you that being there for the baby is probably the most important.

          I also found your comment about how they tend to follow what they are raised with. I think a tremendous amount of narcissism is genetic also. I have a younger son who is sweet and empathetic but yet his dad is a HUGE psychopath. My older son has a lot of his narc dad tendencies and even body language. I think that my older son was raised around my mother and my younger one wasn’t and that made a huge difference. My malignant mommy narc used to try to pay my older son to behave and buy him an Xbox everytime he whined. Hahahaha…

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

        2. Reminds me of those direction finder thingy’s they have in cars, (I wouldn’t know as i don’t drive) that send people everywhere but where they want to go lol!

          Maybe they’ve improved them now?

        3. No judgements here! I have family who have all the answers when it comes to my son. I just walk away. I think that they are part of the reason he is the way he is.

          My older son lives with his father so I really don’t have a lot of issues with his behavior. I just wish he wasn’t screwing up his life so much. I was talking to a lady the other day and she was telling me that after her daughter got a divorce she moved back in with her two young boys in tow. The daughter just figured that she was going to move in and her mother was going to raise the kids. The mother says that the boys are the only reason she does not kick the daughter out. You are dealing with the same thing. Growing up with a narc mother is hard and you guys are really doing more for the children then you know.

          I found it interesting that you said that children are subject to the example as they are growing up. I think my son also has a whole lot of the same genetics as his father. He even has a lot of the same body language. I also think that my older son was around my malignant mommy narc more often. She used to think she could pay him to behave. Every time he whined she bought him an Xbox. A lot of times she would do it just to piss me off. The only thing she really got done was teaching her grandson how to be a brat. My younger son has the sweetest personality and his father is a raging psycho. Thank goodness he does not have a lot of the same genes as his father. He is dramatic though. i just say, CHILL OUT. Wouldn’t it be a fantastic world if this type of personality disorder was not so common.

          1. Yes. The thing about family – it’s hard to walk away from them. And I wouldn’t – not my son or daughter. She is to the point of evil. But the disrespect – I won’t tolerate it. And she is so stressed out living with her mean spirited dad. What a mess.

    2. This would be genetics at play, regardless of how you brought her up, i hope you are not blaming yourself Lucy?

      Sometimes upbringing and environment isn’t enough and the core genetics wins out.

      1. Yes I blame myself that I did something toile her that way. I think I gave gave gave. And now I can’t. I see some families that are so bright and grounded and I know they’ve done something right to get there. I did the best that I knew. I never mistreated anyone. I would have never ever even thought about mistreating my mother or speaking badly to her. I do not know how I got myself into a position of disrespectfulness. I just don’t get it

        1. Sometimes people can not be on a level playing field. I feel like people think I am a pushover so they need to take advantage of me. I always thought that being nice was a good thing. Our society needs a lot of help.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

          1. Susie Q
            So did I. But now we know otherwise. CDs are lurking everywhere even in our own homes.

          2. Isn’t that the truth. I have lived in two states in the past four years and it is amazing how many toxic people I found. It is a sad state of affairs.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          3. Isn’t that the truth! I have lived in two different states in the past three years and it is amazing how many toxic people there are. I find them or maybe they hunt me out! Hahaha…. Signs of our time.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

    1. I had to take jerk to court to get title to it. The judge granted me title. So the truck was totaled in a wreck. I was hit – hard – when a man blew through a red light. Luckily I came out uninjured. STBX claimed all the vehicles as his. (My working full time for 30 years and no car – really?) Judge told him otherwise. So this weekend I finally, after two months without my own vehicle, have a new/used car titled in MY NAME. What an ordeal. Just an example of the unnecessary hardships that man puts on me.

  9. You know one thing these characters love to do is use their children. They groom them and teach them how to abuse.
    I struggle with my adult children at times because of this. I struggle with the fact that I exposed them to it. I struggle with the fact that they suffered it.
    I talk to them alot about character honor and accountability. I show them accountability and I speak about it as if it were the most important quality a human being could possess. It has taken me years with my sons to begin to feel as if I am making a difference and sometimes i think it is all in vain, but I keep plugging along anyways because it is not for me that I do it but for them for their future.
    My daughter has been lost to me for years. She just turned 18. She is completely under my ex’s locus of control. She is quite ugly to me the few times she responds to me at all. At first I thought the pain would kill me or perhaps drive me insane. But I plugged along every day. Little by little I dove into my guilt and little by little as I was able to face it it began to dissolve. I was able to sort through and differentiate between what was mine to own (any accountability I might have) and what was being dumped on me(guilt).
    Knowing that she cannot change things because she will be made to suffer the consequences of going against her fathers wishes, which by the way he makes clear through behavior not words, makes it doubly painful for me as I worry about what has been heaped on her for so many years.
    While my heart still aches for my daughter at least my mind is sound and will be when she can finally be free enough to come back to me.
    Then my work will begin and with Gods help it will make a difference.

    1. E,

      Your words are helpful to me as I’m going through the guilt, etc. of how I have raised her. I thought at the time I was doing well with her. My situation is similar to yours, with my daughter living with her crazy dad. She sees his wrath if she stands up for herself and things don’t go his way. She knows she needs to get out of that house. He’s emotionally abusive to her and she recognizes it. And I tell her so, that he’s abusive towards her and she needs to get out of there. She’s trying – but her monetary situation is dire. What a mess my family is.
      Through reading others’ stories my mind becomes clearer and clearer. I feel healthier but am still left with a mess of a family. Golden Years. What a laugh.

      1. I want to give you a resource, for anyone who’s children are being used. Dr Craig Childress he writes about how disordered individuals use their children.

    2. E,

      I’m sorry you’re going through that because of one manipulative bastard.

      These different character and personality types, these Caligulas, whose inner voice always shouts for more like in a stadium, I guess, seem to either

      1)abuse their children

      2)abandon them without caring to reconcile afterward or being bothered(or bothered enough? Depending on any possible bits of conscience?)

      3)neglect them(ditto?)

      4)spoil them rotten(?)

      5)teach them their own values(I guess everyone values something even if it’s only themselves?)

      6)brainwash them(like I understand seems to be occuring very unfortunately in your case, E), like 5 except still different*

      *And the difference between whether a child being taught to be abusive is a willing agent or actually brainwashed could be subject to more discussion.

      7)Perhaps some can seem to lead a normal family life on the surface while doing unethical things behind the scenes, like having an affair and then insidiously making a secret sex partner seem like a crazy erotomaniac intent on homewrecking, for example.

      I’d like if others weighed on this, because I don’t have personal experience with these, so I can’t really say I know.

      1. Hi Timothy,

        I have looked in a few times today, as usual, and usually comment when i am free at the end of the day; i clicked on the link and will have a good read of it later but….Tim Conway…that’s not YOU is it?

        1. Oh no, it isn’t. Though the thought did cross my mind someone might find it hard to think it’s just a coincidence, so I took quite a risk there. I guess that’s a subconscious reason why I’m way too fond of the whole site.

          I hope no one’s suspecting I’m trying to sell them on advaita vedanta or any other faith, because I think that’s been covered here a few times in the comments already, except on atheism(?) and Christianity.

          P.S. Btw, I saw Jackie’s name again – and once again, a whole different email address than before. Is the site malunctioning again?

          1. Meaning “I guess” sharing a name is “a subconscious reason why I’m way too fond of the whole site.”

          2. Lol, i re-read your post pertaining to that link and realised the wording you used indicated it wasen’t your site, i speed read sometimes when there are a lot of new posts, then come back and digest it more slowly.

            I only have one email address, and i have to come out of the site and go back in to view my posts, so something isn’t right.

            I did a long post about the BBC following Joey’s interesting post about Stuart Hall, it didn’t take and even coming out and returning to this site didn’t work, i was so annoyed!

          3. I think what I said a while ago, I think email addresses of any people, who have ever posted here may also have been getting mixed up. In Lucy’s case she said she has two, but if you say you only have one, then I’d be more inclined to suspect what I just said.

          4. It would even be understandable if you thought I was someone trying to subtly embarrass, discredit or throw suspicion on Conway. Those kinds of things do happen between people, unfortunately. It’s bothersome when you don’t automatically know looking from outside whether something is legit, sinister, skewed, biased, a lie from someone else that another person then honestly believes, honest misperception, explaining discrepancies away, delusion, self-deception, a mix of different things, so on.

            But I guess one thing that’s good to ask ourselves, which I have found, is “Why’s so-and-so telling me this?” Sounds like common sense, but is not so, odd enough.

            P.S. Whatever it’s with the database, it’s getting fixed. I understand that you’d be annoyed about having your comment “disappear” into ether.

      2. God the visions your words Tim have evoked in me, Caligulas, oh my god, perfect.

        And for the quiet ones….The Silent Caligula…

        1. Timothy,
          I thought the same thing when you mentioned Caligula. Being on the other side of the world, are you in the UK like Jackie and Joey? Most of my favorite programs are English. I loved Masterpiece Theater, I Claudius, Periot, Sherlock Holmes and British comedy.

          Do you want me to find some more books for you too?

          1. I don’t hallucinate lol, but i have a very visual way of thinking, pictures come up all the time when i hear people talk, read, listen to Music, a certain amount of this is common of course, especially the Music bit, but images play across my imagination every minute i’m awake.

            I have what’s called a ‘cartoon sense of humour’, someone tells a joke or tells me something funny and a full colour cartoon version will just pop into my head. I will add bits and pieces to the scenario as they are telling it.

            I can’t draw to save my life but if i could i would pen some of these things.

          2. No, I wasn’t talking about hallucinating. 😀 But you got me, I meant visual way of thinking, just like you said.

            I used the wrong word with “vision”. I don’t always think of religious visions when that word pops up.

          3. Timothy,

            I visualize always, you could call them vivid images. As I listen to a bird chirp and then picture what specie in my head. The same as listening to a song or the symphony tells a whole story.

            I know this can be different for others in that being what my sis with schizo reports to me of hers.

      3. Thank you for your words.
        While this has been a very painful thing to have to go through………God has been good and merciful with me, helping me to carry this. He has led me to become educated reading the works of Dr Simon Dr Childress and others. God has given me a wisdom I did not posses before.

    3. Back to E’s comment, I think it tells aptly about how children can be brainwashed(or seemingly brainwashed).

      Brainwashing can affect people of all ages, of course. But there’s something about indoctrinating malleable children that just reeks of unconscionability(is that a word?).

      But how’s that different from simply teaching poor values to children? I wouldn’t call all bad upbringing brainwashing, because I think that would be too generalized. How is brainwashing different from a child learning poor values and becoming a free-willing agent misbehaving? Is there a clear line or distinction? If this has been talked about in length, I’ve missed it. But I think this could be important.

      My opinion is there could be more discussion about brainwashing, in and of itself and compared to when someone misbehaves freely and willingly. Brainwashing of chidren, of any other age, doesn’t matter, I think brainwashing is a matter falling squarely in the subject matters here.

      1. It is enmeshment at is worst, a perverse triangle, cross-generational coalition where the child is used as a regulatory object for the internal screwedupness (I know made up word, but it fits) of the disordered parent. These are the disordered characters that Dr Simon writes about, that cause so much damage and pain in our lives. It is particularly vile when you know that the damage is being perpetrated directly towards your child or any child.

      2. True, all of it. True. True, true, true. True, true, true.

        IS there a difference between brainwashing and exploiting and simply spoiling someone rotten and teaching damaging values? I don’t know about this myself. Though the possibility of it may seem more likely in the same province, it still could happen in the same neighorhood, block or just behind the corner, just like anything horrendous between people and I can’t really deny it. I don’t think I could deny it – right?

        But what we can do is talk about is here for people to read. Hopefully more and more people keep digesting all this and it accumulates for the better.

        I thinnk many here would have more to say about these things and I really hope more people here could have their say ’bout these things.

        1. Timothy,

          There are many factors at play here in the development of the child. I don’t think all parents purposely set out to brainwash their children. Though some do by forcing their beliefs down the throat of the child. The proverbial “My way or the highway” mentality. Brainwashing perhaps? Some are just plain ignorant on how to properly rear children given their parents did not have the skills either. Just so many factors. Brainwashing is a whole different insidious mentality and whomever knowingly uses it is extremely CD.

          1. BTOV,

            Fantastic point! I think that it is great food for thought. I had a conversation the other day with my narc dad. (I try to avoid having a conversation with him as often as possible but we were putting the license plate on my car.) He told me that I was raising my son to be a sissy. I just replied that I was encouraging my boy to grow into whatever he wants to. My boy is very intelligent and made the honors class and my family does not recognize that as being anything positive. I can remember when I was growing up I was only acknowledged when I was excelling in sports. When I was in the car accident and had brain damage I was basically ignored. Anyway, after I gave my remark about letting my son excel in what was best for him then my dad mocked me (like always.)

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

        2. Thanks, BTOV, that makes sense.

          I remembered just that a few of us had a convo on brainwashing a while back and I think you also said you know some reading material on brainwashing, which, please, do list.

          But about the convo, lemme see, took up some digging:

          http://www.drgeorgesimon.com/empathy-and-character-disturbance-pt-2-nurturing-empathy/#comments

          A thread on brainwashing “starts” with Suzi’s comment October 1, 2015, 1:47 pm. “Starts”, because there’s been a lot of discussion already before that, but I think that could be a good differentiative point, so that’s why I think it suffices(a long and somewhat clunky sentence, I know 🙂 ).

          Suzi said:

          “To clarify, when bad people do harm others and refuse to take responsibility for the harm they are NOT a good person.

          So your two questions:

          Were the people who were willing to kill for Charles Manson good people?
          Are the ISIS recruits good people?

          The answer is NO!

          And the judge and jury did not think Manson followers were good either.
          As for ISIS, the whole world is repulsed.”

          That leads to a convo involving me, Suzi, Susie Q, Tundra Woman and Andy. I’d pinpoint as the endpoint when my thoughts start getting really convoluted and stuff about everything, which would be its own convo entirely. I think that’s better reserved for times when you have more time. I think Suzi refered to it and I didn’t realize it(damn!). I’d say it’s summed up “Don’t “open” your mind so much your brain falls out”.

          But the brainwashing -convo itself is relatively easy read.

          Anyways, thanks BTOV for tuning in and giving your view of the matter.

          1. Timothy,
            Your very welcomed. I will try to look up some of my books on brainwashing later for you. I will say though if you think about how companies and the media use techniques to get you to use their products and think a certain way. Brainwashing is a not so polite term for what they do. They like to call it marketing.

            The masters of deceit and the puppeteers have been pulling our strings for a long time in this country. It just doesn’t happen overnight, it is planned.

          2. That’s funny that you mention the fact that marketing has a tremendous amount of brainwashing involved because my big narcs are in marketing. It is quite amusing to see how they can use the correct tone of voice and present so many things in such a way that people overlook the fact that it is complete evil. They got so many people involved in a smear campaign. Omg….. people really really need to think about things completely. It’s unfortunate that so many victims are afraid to think out of the box. The huge psychopath that I was married to used to brag that he could sell ice to the Eskimos. Mommy narc makes sure to go and get day old bread and other outdated things for the community center. I sit back and watch all the people fall for the phony front.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          3. Susie Q
            Your dad is a real piece. You must have good control on your emotions to not lose it when he bad mouths your sweet son.

          4. “It is quite amusing to see how they can use the correct tone of voice and present so many things in such a way that people overlook the fact that it is complete evil. They got so many people involved in a smear campaign.”

            Isn’t smear campaigning portraying someone wrongly as a contemptible character? In other words, people do believe in character, even if they do’t know how to verbalize it and even if it only comes to front when someone else is vilified?

            “It’s unfortunate that so many victims are afraid to think out of the box.”

            I of course don’t claim to know what exactly is going on in people’s minds, but I get the impression sometimes it could be that neural pathways are well-traveled, so it’s easier to think in a certain way, like think that someone they respect could actually be abusing that.

          5. Yes, a smear campaign is destroying someone’s character. I was the victim of a recent smear campaign and my malignant and vindictive mommy narc started the whole thing. She is not in marketing but my psycho sister and sister-in-law are and they probably gave her ideas. She had told just about everyone in this small town awful things that I had done and how I refused to help my daughter through the university. My daughter came to me before the whole thing started and told me the entire story. It is amazing how people who are supposed to be the ones that a person depends on are so evil.

            The people of this small town “flying monkeys” did not think that the predator would turn on them. That’s how evil works though and no one is exempt. They also fell victim to the demon.

            My dad has been victim to my mom’s malicious head games for over 50 years. I really can’t claim that he is an innocent by-stander because the game works on him so well because he is ready to believe the worst in people and be quite mean himself. What a dysfunctional family I have. This massive dysfunction set a great foundation for the other narcs I have met in my life. I have dealt with quite the assortment that is for sure.

            I definitely sense some kind of spiritual connection here. I keep waiting for the narcs to scream a demonic scream and melt down into the pavement like they did in the movie GHOST.

            Susie Q

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          6. They were the flying monkeys (enablers.) They were supposed to carry out the evil agenda for the narc. I don’t beg anyone to be my friend and as soon as I noticed any toxic behavior from them I quit hanging around with them.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          7. How much would you say they were knowing and witting vs unwitting/misled/”brainwashed” accomplishes?

          8. Well, the biggest reason I have is that I can read people very well. Most of the time I can even detect odd behavior in writing. I even heard them talking about it a time or two. They always acted very strange when they saw me approaching. I picked up on that. I was also tipped off became if I ever said anything to malignant mommy narc then the people around town would try to use it against me. For instance, before I knew that there was anything going on I went to the post office to get the mail and the lady that was working behind the counter asked me if I was going to take it to my parents. I looked at her rather strangely and replied that I was. I caught to the insanity after that and started playing games with them. I uncovered the BS. I started talking to people and telling what was going on. They were very upset because they had been taken advantage of. They did not think for themselves from the start. They are all friends on Facebook and once one figured out they had been played then they announced it over social media. Malignant mommy narc doesn’t like to think that anyone does not adore her. She will set out to destroy them or their reputation if at all possible. She came in one day with quite an evil look on her face and she was screaming, “Everyone thinks that I am an asshole but that is just not true!”

            Long story and probably very confusing to you.

            Sent from Outlook Mobile

          9. Makes sense, actually. Twisted sense, but sense nonetheless. At least they ended up seeing what was really going on and who the real a*****e was.

            When you say you “started playing games”, are you possibly thinking like what the police do? Like when doing the Reid technique?

      3. Things can easily get sidetracked in a discussion.

        This got started about brainwashing. It’d be of help that people give their views on the matter.

  10. BYOV
    I did have a buyer for both, a friend of mine. Unbeknownst to me the attorneys said the jerk had to agree on the price of course which he didn’t. My friend had a mechanic look at the truck. It needed thousands on repairs due to neglect. But the jerk thinks the truck is worth much more. He won’t agree to sell it for the price I negotiated. So now I think we have an agreement that he gets the truck and me the trailer. I don’t know if we are ordered to sell them at this point. I was ordered to sell both and out the money in an escrow account. I haven’t seen the court order yet. They are still working on drawing it up. What a cluster F— that was. I had them both sold – but neither now. My friend and STBX used to be good friends before the downfall. He’s getting a feel for how I keep getting jerked around by him.

    1. Lucy,
      You were in court, either the Judge ordered them sold or he didn’t. If you can’t remember get a copy of that part of the transcript where the judge ordered it. All that matters is what the JUDGE SAYS.

      Are the titles in both names? If the Judge gave the order it is in the transcripts otherwise why would you had said this. If you have a reasonable offer – you – can get an estimate of value from 2 dealers, or they have a Kelly’s Blue Book value depending on condition, miles, age etc…..

      He doesn’t have to agree to a value if you have a reasonable offer and can prove it. Everyone knows he is not agreeable on anything, is a lier, cheat and thief and everything else. This is where you need to take charge or the attorneys are going to eat your assets right into any retirement you have.

      The STBX is going to bankrupt you and leave you holding the bag for everything. Next thing he will do is claim physical and mental infirmities and having demanding half your pension and maybe some spousal support too. He will play the victim card and blame you for everything. You drove him to every bit of it, no one has any idea what he had to put up with with you. He will turn it all around on you.

      Another thing if he starts claiming mental incapacitation you may be paying for the rest of your life. Depending on the law you might not even be allowed to divorce him. This dirtbag, Caligula/Demoniac Swine and I hope you don’t doubt me they exist and are ULTIMATE EVIL.

      You may think this is about money with him, but it isn’t. This is about control, control, control and if he can hang on and I am his diseased mind is thinking very clear on getting even he will make you pay and pay and pay. Therefore, he has won the game, he maintained control even if it meant losing everything.

      Your STBX wants to make you pay and pay and suffer and suffer and that still will not be good enough. The STBX will cost you everything you have and leave you with nothing. If you think the attorney you have is your friend or minutely cares you are deluding yourself. These parasites are greedy and will vacuum your pockets and bleed you dry they have no morale integrity. These slim bags still have their license and if you think they have come by their money by working honestly you are ill advised and sorely mistaken.

      If the Judge indeed said like you said to sell do it. Let the Swine complain, I hope you are not talking with him like it sounded. Who cares what he thinks do you really think he will agree. Is the title in both names and does it read AND OR?

      I can’t help you if you don’t help yourself. The Judge will not do anything if you sell these things and he said you should. Let him yell all he wants, let the judge decide that in the end on the tally sheet. If your still talking to him about anything you need to rethink your position. How can you trust anything he says. You don’t want to lose this buyer either. Have you determined how long he can drag this out and the the lawyers will, I hope you put some thought to this.

      I am not trying to hurt your feelings, I can just feel it from what you say. None of this bodes well. I know this is very difficult and stressful, but you need to think smart or you will be sitting back some day and wishing you had done otherwise.

      1. Lucy,
        Usually, only one lawyer is assigned to write the order, his attorney or yours, who was assigned the order? If your to upset to remember what is being said, order a copy of the transcript and read it for yourself. Those two attorneys could draw this hearing out going back and forth 10,000 easy, going back and forth between 4 people and in the end no one knows exactly what was said. Be proactive, then if things aren’t right according to the transcripts there should be accountability.

        You should know better than anyone these parasites love a good fight and a crazy maker added as frosting on the cake, the two of you can buy them each a new BMW by the time they are through with you.

        1. Transcript is being prepared. Our court has one or both write an order and the court uses it as a template and either chooses one to sign or used one and adds to it. Attorneys always argue what the riling was. The transcript will clear it up. Had it been stated on court to be sold as agreed to by both parties I would have said Let Him Sell It – without my intervention. I was actually put off by being in charge of selling a messed up truck. I hadn’t sold on two days. It had been to two mechanics.

      2. I was infuriated when I was told by my attorney that he had to agree upon a price. I said how can that be. We’ve ordered the transcript. I didn’t hear anything by the judge saying it had to be agreed to The attorneys are still working on an order regarding the hearing and I have not yet seen it Judge denied temporary maintenance stating the reason that he gave up his law license (He gave it up before they took it) And that he is under employed considering his education and skills So that’s a win that I believe will carry-on to permanent maintenance that he will lose that also I wish I could get this settled but I can’t live on half pension. The jerk won’t settle as of yet. He is so focused on finding me in contempt of court. He must read that court order daily. He can’t find me doing any contempt so he resorts to making things up. Yep I’m very dissappointed in the way I had the truck and trailer sold and he was allowed to intervene. Things were happening so fast in that hearing it was crazy. But I won on all counts. Let the jerk see if he can get 7,000 more for that truck he’s ruined than what i was offered. He has no scruples and will sell it as if it runs well. I didn’t talk to him about the sell. It was through the attorneys. I had it sold and suddenly somehow the sale didn’t happen. I think the judge is going to be furious when he finds out what happened. Anyway I’m now just focusing on selling the trailer. The truck will sit and further deteriorate.

  11. BYOV
    My attorney wants me to settle because he is the craziest. STBX demands too much to the
    Point is be impoverished. It’s a no win situation. My good friend – who o have a high opinion of – credentials of the highest – thinks I can win on dissipation, pension.
    I really don’t think the jerk will ever say he is mentally incompetent. But I could see him claiming physical disabilities. It never ends. And at the outset when attorney said the sale would not go through I said get me out of this mess, I’m not having a mini trial over a truck. Let him sell it. I’m done with his nonsense. Next hearing we have will be kicking him out of marital home. That is when things will get scary.

      1. Lucy
        The lawyers are playing both of you. There are things you can do, but there is only a small window of opportunity for you.

        1. I can say he can have half my pension and then keep working till he dies. Then I get 100 percent. That’s the way my pension works. But he may live too long.

      2. It’s worth what the STBX said if it were in good condition. 2003 2500 diseal truck four door. Pull like a champ. But it needs 3,000 in repairs, plus possibly new transmission (could be filter). It was a fabulous truck that has been run down. I had it sold for 9,000. In good running condition 17,000. What he’s done to the truck he is doing to the house. A high dollar house being run down by the nut

        1. Lucy,
          The truck is 14 years old. It can’t be worth that. Its not like it is a southern car. I bet you have a woman attorney. Right now your nerves are on end. You can’t think straight and its a nightmare you want to get done with. Whose idea to order the transcript. See something is very wrong here. If you give him what he wants you will never be rid of him.

          1. My attorney is a lady. STBX saw something on car guru that saidn17,000. My attorney idea to order transcript because the attorneys are fighting about what goes in the order. (I’m a court reporter. This happens all the time). Theory from the sale of truck and trailer goes into escrow. If he can get more money more power to him. Simple things just are spiraling out of control. I can tell by the judge’s demeanor he does not like the X. And he has short patience for nonsense. I’m in a pickle for sure. X spent savings. I believe is a drug addict. Is unbalanced. Wants half of everything and nothing less. Maybe he will change hisind when we get to trial and all the prostitution/pimping/drugging comes into play. I don’t have proof. It’s all circumstantial. Lots of money withdrawn from various ATMs around the city the same day, more than one hotel in a given day, up to seven one day. He will have to explain it. What could he possibly say? Oh – that I drove him to it. He probably will say it’s gotnsethong to do with me- which the judge won’t believe. Yep I’m in a real mess

  12. Lucy,
    I will give you all the support I can. However, I cannot give you legal advice on this blog. There are things you can do. I have gone through and know what you are dealing with.
    If you are up do you have my email?

      1. Lucy,
        Correct protocol is to contact Dr. Simon and let him know I agreed. You can do this via the contact above. I am still getting other email addresses.

  13. Lucy,
    I would sell the truck and trailer like the judge said. I looked a chevy club cab duly with all the options and it was 10,000. The lawyers are building a mini case over this and making money in the end you will end up with less.

    He can’t hold you in contempt, the judge, said to sell, so you do it, the monies are to the benefit of both parties. You would have no interest not to take the money. If he argues you lost $$$$ you argue the amounts of monies that it would cost to go back to court and pay additional court cost and additional attorneys to argue about this would depreciate the value of the truck and render it valueless.

    The lawyers are sucking you dry, when there is no value of anything left the lawyer will drop you and you will be paying her off like you have a house payment. She doesn’t care about you its money.

    She is afraid of your STBX, whatever do not show fear or let anxiety get the better of you. Act like you are having to deal with a brat. The judge will only at most if there is an error admonish you and verbally slap your hand to satisfy the brat. Regardless, the truck has to be sold. You can keep this process going and also stop all the convo with lawyer, she is draining your emotions. If he has any conflict about the truck being sold have your attorney respond that this issue can be addressed at the final hearing.

    STBX does not care about how much money is received from sale, it about punishing, control and making you miserable like him. Don’t cave he will take this as weakness and attack worse.

    The man is capable of working across state lines and could easily hang out a shingle or work from home. Believe me once he gets done with you he will be running all sorts of scams. Let him have the house and vehicles all the furnishings and you keep your Job with nothing else, you walk away with your personal items and he can have everything.

    In the end the Judge decides, not him, ask for a final hearing of the facts and get it done, you have good choices and your lawyer is not being forthright. I can’t say anymore and this is not to be construed in any manner as legal advise. Keep a level head, emotions run high at a time like this, your X is a two bit bum, have no fear of him.

    Pray to God for guidance and wisdom he has the power to set you free. He will place his angels to watch over you, I know this because he has done this for me. Even though I have to deal with them I don’t let them bother me and it has been rather unbelievable and unnearving at times what they will stoop to.

    1. X name is on title. I don’t want the expense of a mini trial over a truck. I can’t believe everyone said he had to agree on price, both attorneys and X. That was not what the judge said. Anyway, I already returned the truck to him. He dropped the insurance on it two days after the court hearing. My attorney was pissed that the deal wouldn’t go through, being that I had them both sold but X attorney put the stop on it. The buyer didn’t want to get in that mess. He still might buy the trailer. He first is going to look it over. I just don’t have the money to litigate every ******* thing that comes up. Attorney is trying to minimize my fees letting me do some of the footwork and telling me not to email unless it’s absolutely necessary. I really don’t believe she’s trying to milk me. It’s that I have to keep defending it seems.
      I have a strong feeling he’s going to be kicked out of the marital home soon – since real estate season is approaching the agent says he needs to get out of the house in order for it to sell.
      At my next meeting I’ll ask her to push for our trial hearing date. If I could keep my pension and a little money I would walk away from the rest, even though I know it’s not even close to fair or what I deserve. I still believe I have a strong dissipation of assets case, but just trying it eats up my assets in attorney fees. That’s the Catch 22.

      1. I really think you both need a few phone calls between you, as well as the emails.

        Lucy, is there any chance your STBX is going for the mental incompetence label? By leaving the House and Car to rot it could look like severe depression, the Court may feel sorry for him.

        I know there are other reasons he is doing this, but the Mental Health ticket could be icing on the cake.

        Please, please try not to worry too much, sometimes the mind finds solutions when you least expect it, even in seemingly impossible situations.

        1. He won’t use the mental health ticket. He is trying to prove that I am mentally ill. He has said so in court documents and people he works with. I think he has serious issues for sure. Any emails I’ve sent he takes them out of context to use against me. He lies. I can’t believe a thing he says and his intentions are bad. I cannot talk to him. He is infuriated at me. How dare I not settle to give half my pension to him. He has spent over a million in the past six years. Now he wants what is left.

  14. I have taken the decision to invest in my self.

    Tolerance by Thomas Hardy

    ‘It is a foolish thing,’ said I,
    ‘To bear with such, and pass it by;
    Yet so I do, I know not why!’

    And at each clash I would surmise
    That if I had acted otherwise
    I might have saved me many sighs.

    But now the only happiness
    In looking back that I possess –
    Whose lack would leave me comfortless –

    Is to remember I refrained
    From masteries I might have gained,
    And for my tolerance was disdained;

    For see, a tomb. And if it were
    I had bent and broke, I should not dare
    To linger in the shadows there.

    Tolerance –
    by Thomas Hardy

    ‘It is a foolish thing,’ said I,
    ‘To bear with such, and pass it by;
    Yet so I do, I know not why!’

    And at each clash I would surmise
    That if I had acted otherwise
    I might have saved me many sighs.

    But now the only happiness
    In looking back that I possess –
    Whose lack would leave me comfortless –

    Is to remember I refrained
    From masteries I might have gained,
    And for my tolerance was disdained;

    For see, a tomb. And if it were
    I had bent and broke, I should not dare
    To linger in the shadows there.

    1. Joey,
      We all are so very wounded, to recover ourselves again. I pray you are well. (Hugs)
      That if I had acted otherwise,
      I might have saved me many sighs

      1. I saw a little girl shopping with her grandmother the child was dancing singing, laughing. She was completly Blind. Her grandmother was explaining what ever thing was around them. I shed a tear. I have borrowed alot of money,so I can do a course. I leave tonight. I will be away for a while.
        SO…..
        Been reading THE NARCISSIST TEST by Dr Craig Malkin
        Very Good.

        1. Dear Joey,
          Be safe and you will be in our thoughts and prayers, Gods blessing. We all will be looking forward to your return.

    2. I should not dare to linger in the shadows there. That resonates with me. Just deal with my life blows but don’t linger there …..

  15. Today was a sad day at work (courthouse). A young mother gave up her two children for adoption. She silently cried through the hearing. Her heart was broken. It brought tears to my eyes. She was there by herself without any support. I’m not a hugger – but i gave her a big one out in the hall. I’ll never forget her sad face.

  16. Susie Q

    Goodness. Your small town and the goings on with your mom sounds draining. When the Narc is family is makes it much more difficult with all the intermingling amongst family. You know what I wish for us all? It’s peace of mind. I used to have it and sure do miss it.

    1. I used to have piece of mind too and I miss it so much. I lived in a different state and times were hard. I was a single mom raising three kids by myself but that was alright because I had control of my life. We have no control over much of anything right now. My son really hates it here.

      Yes, my dysfunctional family is very trying. Malignant mommy narc plays more mind games than I can ever remember. Narcs get so much worse as they get older. My dad has a HUGE ego and he is so full of insults. I saw on another narc website today a really good thought – Once the narc figures out they can’t control you anymore then they will try to destroy how others perceive you. That is the main reason behind the smear campaign! I guess they grasp for whatever straws they can.

      Well, we are going to be getting out of her in about a week. We are headed to a different state for spring break. That will do a lot of good. Even though we have found ways to deal with the dysfunction here we still deal with the affects of the tremendous stress.

      Sent from Outlook Mobile

      1. Dealing with the stress is exhausting. People say I’m so strong. Maybe I am but its wearing me out. I’m sick of it. I did vacation last year – my friend took me on vacation for a week to give me a mental break – but it really didn’t help. I was on the middle of divorce chaos. Sorry. I don’tesn to be a downer. I hope you and your son get the much need peace and have a great time.

        1. I know that it is hard and I feel like I am walking in a daze. We don’t sleep very well. I have huge bags under my eyes. These last six years I have been in survival mode and I think that I have dealt with every narc around. We literally had to run in the middle of the night up in UT because my roommate whacked out. We ended up calling my parents to come and get us and instead of helping, they tried to push us over the edge. Oh well, they need to get a big dose of the crap they are serving!! My son and I are going to visit my favorite aunt and uncle in a different for about a week. I really want to enjoy spring break and then get out of here. That’s my dream!

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

          1. Spring is my favorite time of year. It’s great you have some “normal” family members to go visit. Have a wonderful time.

          2. SusieQ,

            There was another person posting Suzi, she was to have eye surgery and has not posted since.

            When you are on spring break with these relative is it possible to look at this as a perspective home and cut the ties with the dysfunctional family?

    2. Don’t extreme a*****es do that(smearing and s**t-throwing) as backstage sabotage of the support lines also to prevent being exposed? At least that would go along with what I’v read about sociopaths. They sow discord, distrust and disinformation between people, who would otherwise leak disadvantageous information.

      Very good that I did happen to have read it, because I’m fairly certain I managed to avoid the influence of one man I suspect must’ve been a psychopath(considering he was so normal on the surface and not “odd” at all makes me think even more he must’ve been a psychopath). Feeling sorry for the possible repercussions for the social circle. I’ve left a lot out just in case someone would be reading all these comments. The recent nefarious hack attack doesn’t help matters. (I dont think those two are related, btw. Just so you aren’t confused.)

      Don’t know ’bout other character types, then. Do you think even ones, who can lie without skipping a beat, “leak”? Out of overconfidence or something like that? Even if they otherwise don’t seem odd at all?

      1. Susie Q and Timothy

        I dont quite understand what all makes their mind dysfunction but info notice my CDN has dramatically worsened with age. His life has crashed. He lies to cover up what he has done and is smearing my name saying I’m crazy. I guess if he convinced people that I’m nuts then when they hear of his stuff they won’t believe it. What a miserable life – living every moment lying and more lying and covering up. Maybe it doesn’t bother him or cause distress to purposely try to ruin me. I think the only thing that does bother him is when people find out his ugly truth. It’s all self centeredness. Me me me me me. His perceptions is what is of upmost importance to him. Me – devoted wife of 20 years – am nothing to him – just a hopeful future income source. That is The ONLY use he now has for me.

        1. Linda,

          I have noticed also malignant mommy narc has gotten worse with age. She is in her sixties now and I have noticed a brand new bag of tricks from when I was growing up. She lies constantly! I joke and say she can lie as easily as she breathes. She gets very belligerent if someone points out her lies. She is also into the smear campaign. I have heard when the narc no longer controls you then they need to destroy the way others see you. I hope you find peace soon and remember you are stronger than you think.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

      2. Timothy,
        It would be interesting to hear the parts you left out which may contain more of an answer. (btw good post for thought and discussion) I believe all CDMNSP leave clues shall we say in our interactions with them. Sometimes so very subtle that we don’t notice until they perhaps, strike. Then in retrospect we look back and rethink and yes, it was there all along, but ever so subtle.

        I thought in this post of the psychopaths that murder and toy with authorities by leaving a small clue. The clue left due to sometimes, getting sloppy, overly confident and just for the glee of toying like a cat and mouse game to amuse themselves with. The little trinkets kept to remind them of their conquest. The MN do the same too.

        1. We don’t notice these things until we’ve invested some time in them.

          You know what I’ve noticed this past year? I just do not have the patience for foolishness, no matter who it is. I used to tolerate so much that now going through what I am with the STBX, I haven’t the energy or desire to tolerate ugly character traits in people. I’d rather just walk away. Goodbye. Poof.

        2. Btov,

          Quite thought provoking! Wasn’t it Eleanor Roosevelt that said intelligent people talk about ideas?! I love that.

          I have had a couple of roommates who were VERY evil psychopaths. I often watched CRIMINAL MINDS with them and noticed very interesting things. I often watched because I loved the clues the officials got but I noticed that the evil ones were hanging on to the drama waiting to gain intense tricks for abuse. I could see their eyes light up when they got new ideas. Just a bit of insight and it is interesting how a narc can turn anything around for their favor.

          Sent from Outlook Mobile

    1. Again? This is about the sixth, seventh, umpteenth time someone says that.

      But then again I’ve had a hard day and I’m meeting some people very early tomorrow and going around seeing people I like, so I may take former to form my thoughts, ‘kay?

      And I agree that I don’t appreciate, for instance, when someone goes behind backs to spread rumours, tarnish and backstab. But being a backstabber ain’t necessary for me to not wanna have jack to do with a person. Just trying to guilt me like “I wanted to help you” is a black mark from me. Guilt-tripping is a no-no. Also, being a rude jerk. That’s what I think.

    2. Also, second-guessing future plans and goals is an extreme no-no. If someone does that to me, I don’t care about how good their intentions are or crap, they get black mark from me then and if they persist in that, they are the hell out of my life.

      1. Do you mean if somebody second-guesses your plans and goals? Why surround ourselves with negative energy anyway? I need to heal – not linger in this sewage STBX is throwing at me.

  17. BTOV,

    I know we talked about this but I’m still confused. STBX CDN regularly sends me emails, of which most of them I don’t read but some I have to. The emails are most always belligerent, full of insults condescending, etc.
    As of lately I’ve babysat at the house (that I moved out of but still have court order that I have all rights to live there – I come and go – to clean and babysit) and he has approached me as I have the grandson. He will not look at me. He looks like a vombie heading for the grandson, even when he’s in my lap. He tries to totally tune me out. I yell *** no, his diaper is dirty. YOu can’t have him yet. *** he hasn’t eaten dinner. Here is his food. The weirdo won’t look towards me, won’t say anything to me, tries to block me out of his visual. But he can send numerous ugly emails one after the other all day long. What does this mean? That he’s a coward, can’t look at me? I exist to him because he emails me. But when I’m there personally he goes into an I Don’t Exist Trance. Makes me want to jump up in his face and say “Look! I’m a person – the one that you badger – try it to my face!” But I don’t —

    1. No-one -cares-about-you,

      It’s remarkable how you know the rules. Not. Now move on to somewhere else to unleash your abuse. You’re not welcome here.

    2. noonecaresabouturproblems

      HAPPINESS
      Comes when you stop complaining about your problems. I am absolutly
      sure. YOU, YES YOU, HAVE A MOUNTAIN OF THEM ! and you start being grateful for the problems you don’t have. Which would appear that you definitely DO NOT HAVE. LOL

  18. To A Friend Who Sent Me Some Roses

    By John Keats

    As late I rambled in the happy fields,
    What time the skylark shakes the tremulous dew
    From his lush clover covert;—when anew
    Adventurous knights take up their dinted shields;
    I saw the sweetest flower wild nature yields,
    A fresh-blown musk-rose; ’twas the first that threw
    Its sweets upon the summer: graceful it grew
    As is the wand that Queen Titania wields.
    And, as I feasted on its fragrancy,
    I thought the garden-rose it far excelled;
    But when, O Wells! thy roses came to me,
    My sense with their deliciousness was spelled:
    Soft voices had they, that with tender plea
    Whispered of peace, and truth, and friendliness unquelled.

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