The Art of The Lie

The fictional TV character Gregory House is famous for unabashedly asserting that “everybody lies.”  He’s also notorious for saying or doing whatever he thinks he has to do to achieve his ends.  He’s a cantankerous yet somehow lovable character who often doesn’t have the best intentions but sometimes does a world of good for folks in desperate situations.  He’s also the consumate manipulator, and the writers behind the character knew well that a master manipulator like House would have to be a truly artful liar, well-versed in the many subtle ways to deceive.

House was right about one thing: we all lie from time to time.  Sometimes the lies we tell are pretty innocuous.  It’s not necessary (and many would say it’s unwise) to be perfectly truthful about  how hideous we think someone looks in a particular outfit, or how “lame” we think the joke a friend of ours just told really is.  Sometimes, it’s a mark of civility to be less than fully candid. But as we all know, being untruthful can be a real problem, too, especially when we do so with malicious intent, when the truth would do just as well, or when we do it so habitually and convincingly that we begin to believe our own falsehoods (for more on this see the articles: Seeing the World as They Want to See It:  The Self-Deceptive Thinkin of Disturbed Characters and Manipulators:  Do They Really Believe What They’re Saying?).  And we also know that ardent, troublesome liars often try to justify themselves by pointing out the truism that we all have flaws.

There’s been a lot of research on lying in recent years, and when you closely scrutinize the 12 or so reasons science now tells us people generally have for lying it boils down to 2 basic motives:  to secure something we find desirable but don’t think we can get honestly, or to prevent something we find undesirable from occuring. Lying, in a scientific sense, is an instrumental behavior, a purposeful, goal-directed act of will.

Lying and manipulation are, and always have always been, close partners.  Covertly aggressive individuals know that if they’re to succeed with their hidden, nefarious agendas, they have to  be able not only to deceive but also to do so without being readily detected as being conniving.  And, as I first pointed out in In Sheep’s Clothing, this strategy is at the very heart of manipulation.

Manipulative people are among the most skilled liars.  As masters of deception, they know the many and subtle ways to lie.  Perhaps the biggest single reason their tactics of manipulation and control work is because their surface-level behaviors can easily have you believing one thing while underneath the surface something else is really going on. That’s why in my first book I stressed the importance of getting intimately acquainted with the most common tactics covert aggressors use and why I stressed even more in Character Disturbance how important it is to recognize above and beyond all else that when someone is using any of these tactics, they’re primarily fighting for a position of advantage, looking for ways to get something from you without your fully realizing it or to take advantage of you in some way without being uncovered as someone out to abuse or exploit you.

In the current series of articles, we’ll be taking a deeper look into the “art” of deception. I’ll be presenting vignettes that illustrate how craftily covert aggressors use various tactics to deceive and thereby manipulate and control.  The examples along with my commentary will be designed to help you attune yourself to clues that someone’s trying to put one over on you before they succeed in doing you in.  I’ll also be presenting some examples that illustrate what can happen when a person’s incapacity/unwillingness to be truthful reaches a level that they begin to believe their own lies.  I hope the commentators will also share some examples of how dishonesty on the part of a relationship partner dealt a death blow to that relationship by eroding all sense of trust (for more on trust and relationships see the series on trust, beginning with Trust:  The Foundation of Any Relationship).

Sunday’s Character Matters program at 7 pm EDT will be a live broadcast, so I can take your calls.  The topic will be on narcissism and especially Narcissistic Personality Disorder and some prime examples of this character disturbance in our political arena.

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133 thoughts on “The Art of The Lie

  1. I am finding that someone I know who often lies and at the same time is validating that lie. I am wondering if it could be because this person wants to create a situation for others to believe as proof of the lie. I notice this person will give a negative impression about someone to make it look as though the liar is a victim in order to receive compassion or sympathy or something else, from others. I am not sure about this but from the way I have observed this person, it seems very likely. I just don’t understand why someone would harm another’s integrity and or dignity, most esp. when it is someone they are supposed to care about. I have seen this done numerous times with different situations from this one person. What happened to being truthful and kind? What is there to be gained by this? And at what cost?

    1. Corey,

      Yes, to what end? The only thing that makes sense, by your description of a liar (and I am assuming this is outside the work or family realm) is the target of the liar offended them at some point in time. And it needn’t be much more than a slight that festers inside the ego of an egomaniac.

      I have witnessed minor covert vendettas waged by those with large but fragile egos.

      Weird, isn’t it? It’s the social equivalent if having your toe stepped on and retaliating by shooting someone’s leg off.

      1. The women in my family belong in a big viper pit. They are very narcissistic. I told the men about their little wicked circle. Omg…the smear campaign began against me. They lied about everything. They turned most of the things on my Facebook page into very vicious slander. (THAT IS ONE USE OF SOCIAL MEDIA THAT WE USUALLY DON’T THINK ABOUT) Now I am right down here in the middle of my family now and the men see it has all been quite the con game.
        Great entry!! There are so many things that these individuals do that are hard to put into words but the more we share, the better we get.

      2. The description of the perpetrator and the reason why is spot on my husband . He has had a porn addiction our whole marriage , it sure seems this breeds deep resentments towards me – a normal real life wife and mother competing with fantasy . He can’t voice the bitterness do it festers , oozing out in constant covert behaviors intended to hurt me , and for what ? Being a real woman instead of fantasy porn .

        1. Hope, I am very sorry to hear this. Both of husbands were porn addicts. I was married to my first husband before the internet came on strong but he had lots of smut magazines lying around and he didn’t care who saw them. He grew up with a father who left those same kinds of smut magazines in a basket at the end of the couch so he could make sure his boys became men. My second husband was a full blown psychopath who was very addicted. Our computer got so messed up because of the viruses that were connected to the porn sights.
          I heard so many negative remarks regarding my body from my first husband. I was really bothered by it at first but then I got to reading about the addiction and discovered that the one that has the addiction is really trying to cover up their own insecurity. Those women on paper or in the movies can take him into a fantasy land where he is perfect and he never questions his performance. He is never going to measure up in real life so he goes to the fantasy where he is the best.

    2. When did you meet my sister? My CBT therapist told me that her behaviors are classic borderline personality disordered characteristics.

      For 20 years she, our two brothers and all of our families got along really well. Then she didn’t need me any more and her raw viciousness was unleashed.

      It took quite some time for me to learn that she had been building a case against me by going to the rest of the family with all kinds of lies and distortions. And, most hurtful of all, they never challenged her. One brother is permanently out to lunch but his wife and Sis spend endless hours gossiping about the others. My other brother is afraid of her because she can be a holy terror if you do not obey her directives; his wife is very passive. As soon as anyone left the room, she would be gossipy about them. What I cannot understand is how no one ever figures out that as soon as they left the room, they became the topic. Gossip being mean-spirited talk. She was out to destroy me.

      She did, however, give me the greatest gift of my life. I worked so hard at trying to get our relationship back together; she continued to avoid answering my questions about how we got de-railed and/or twisting my words so that she was the victim. One last mean thing happened and I made an appointment with a therapist.

      It was there I learned about Real Me. I was not the evil caricature that my mother portrayed me as, I am a kind, loving, non-bitchy (her word) giving person. It took years of therapy to discover the Real Me buried inside.

      What does she get out of it? She became the power person in the family, loves the control. However, she is (or was, NC for 7 years now) constantly on the lookout for someone being unkind to her. Miserable. Pathetic. There is a brief rush when her power play works, and then she’s right back on guard duty, looking to see who might be victimizing her.

      1. And, no, there is nothing I did to her. I have been so kind and supportive of her, and to her family. Same for all the others who somehow let her lies outweigh all that they experienced with me.

        1. LuLu this is for you. I read this in the Daily Express in the U.K. I think you can relate to this.

          Joan Didion Quote.

          I have already lost touch with a couple of people I used to be

      2. Omg…. This is a great description of my sister. She is a very jealous, unhappy person. I didn’t give her complete adoration like she wanted so her smear campaign got very intense about five years ago. She is ruthless and spent many hours figuring out how to destroy me. I was the center of her life!! She tried cyber bullying. She got her band of friends to try to tell me how stupid I was and how all the posts I wrote should be double checked by a sane person. I just blocked her because she was always the thorn in my side. That just infuriated her and she stepped up her game. She started to tell my entire family lies about me. I was not surprised to find out that mommy narc and sister-in-law narc joined forces with her. It upset me to know that the men in the family believed the horrendous fabrications about me. Lalala..long story short the reign of terror has ended!! I am sure the reign of terror is still around to some extent but much of the dramatic violence has ended.
        Yup..I don’t understand how people think that they can play with the devil and not get burned. The gossip was awful and the lies were intense. I was very hurt that anyone would peg me as being as cruel and heartless as they claimed.
        I can see already which member of the family is going to become the victim of this cruel and unjust punishment. The predators already have the next story started.

      3. Lulu, it seems that so many of us are learning who we really are actually is after coming out of the fog of being a CD’s victim.

        I know that sometimes I’m surprised at how people DO NOT overreact to something rather innocuous, after having been on the receiving end of my brother’s sneers and eye-rolls and put-downs all my life. And the ubiquitous “you’re just too sensitive” bullcrap that gets rolled out when told to stop their behaviour. I think to myself “so that’s how Normal is”.

        And just like your sister, being the power person in the family – that’s what narbro gets with his partner’s extended family (they live in another city). An audience to whom he feels superior since he has more education than the others, people he argues into the ground if they ever disagree with him. If only it were in respectful behaviour!

        And the lies! I’ll post a gem about narbro’s lies in a separate post.

        Lulu, you and the others here who have gone through this special kind of hell are truly the kindhearted, genuine, courageous ones. Not what the CDs depict us as being.

        1. I do agree that we have a special outlook on life and I do attribute a lot of that to the fact that we have suffered at the hands of evil and refused to give in. I know that once we all finally realized what was happening in our lives we chose to take a deeper look at what was going on inside and out.

  2. The art is really very interesting. When I think of people who have mastered the art I think of used car salesman. Actually the only used car salesman that I new on a personal level was a very genuine individual. LOL…. However I do know several people in the marketing field who are vindictive, manipulative, and very crooked. They all have a fantastic record of sales and somehow all of the manipulation they use spills over into their personal lives. It’s almost like the manipulation becomes part of them but these individuals have very narcissistic personalities that gives them exceptional opportunities to be successful. Each one of the individuals has a different kind of thing they do when they lie. It’s very interesting to see the kinds of things that give them away. One has to get a very believable angelic look, another gets a know-it-all attitude along with a devilish look in her eyes, and another can’t stop talking. They all know what they’re doing. My ex (who thinks he would be able to sell ice to the eskimos) is a huge liar. He was always so mean and I wanted him to go on anti-depressants to calm him down. He flat out told me that the anti-depressants would not help with his “exaggeration.”

  3. Great topic Dr. Simon,
    I think the “LIE” is the whole makeup of the CDO relationship and individual, that is why it is so confusing. I read the stories here of all the individuals that have ended a relationship that lasted decades and finally came to the realization of it was all built on lies.

    When I reflect on mine I am still taken aback on the house of lies and so deceitfully and tactfully done. The ambiguity, the duplicity by an individual to deceive to me. Looking back at such a ball of confusion of emotions, and I am looking at mine now. To have been reeled in by the pretext of love and the belief of building a lifetime of security and memories. Now to find out the person I married is a diabolical mess of false masks lost in their own confabulated house of lies.

    The blessing in all this is I started to see through this mirage so tactfully and creatively built, a really good disguise. The key was that I was part of that disguise and when I started to question the lie because these persons are essentially a human in the suit of a lie and a mind of a lie a complete false person their true essence began to show.

    I am still in awe of what is unveiling in this caricature of a so called human. What is mindboggling is this “EVIL” being was in the process of devouring what was left of me. I can only say that my prayers and my faith in God and the Christian doctors I had saved me from the final point of no return.

    So many of you have expressed the vulgar and inhuman depths these individuals will stoop to to consume and destroy you. The mind control the twisting of truths, their versions of truths are your truths. The thought police the indoctrination to ultimate slave hood to them they are their own gods and then they are to be your god to live for them , think like them, live in the shadow of them.

    Mine was a master at telling 99% of the story and the 1% left out changed the whole outcome. Many could and have hung in the gallows so to speak by the 1% left out which was the truth and in his mind and all the people he talked to would believe his truth. Lawyers and politicians are masters at this!

    They believe their own lies and then begin to live and become a complete LIE. When the veil of lies starts to crumble it is a hideous thing to behold an unimaginable sight. Gut retching and you want to regurgitate with and unending need to run vomiting all the way.

    What kind of “thing” but sheer “Evil” can make a person feel this way? The lie the ultimate lie a human a walking talking “LIE.” The irony of it all is it was them all the time and not you.

    WOW, that was cathartic! I just read the Dr. Simons A Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing last night. I must never forget. Another good read is Telling Lies by Paul Ekman and People of the Lie by Scott Peck.

    Thank you Dr. Simon and all who contribute regularly you truly are a God send to keep my sanity and know the truth and not to live a lie. A constant validation of not being sucked in again. Blessings to all

    1. I can agree!! I will not be sucked in. So many red flags that are always noticed right away. I used to think that the very intent stare of a narc was a turn on. I thought it meant that they were really in love with me but now I know it is how a tiger looks at their prey. Well, I won’t be anyone’s prey. I also learned to never discount my gut instinct.

      1. Hi Carrie,

        I know the look well. Went out with a narcissist many years ago who purposely did this. He had taken hypnotism courses for sales job. At least he owned up to it. That relationship lasted just two months and I was out of there!! Guy turned out to be pervy, so that was easy.

        Fast forward almost 3 decades. The P who targeted me appeared to be practicing everything he was learning studying NLP — on me! He had also taken hypnosis courses, some years ago.

        What he would do was mirror the subtlest shift in the movements of my eyes while he was looking deeply into them. I would in turn (I’m guessing here) probably then be mirroring his eye movements. The pull of the eyes, the magnetic effects and hypnotic potential had an exaggerated effect through this purposeful (on his part) reverberation technique. I would have no conscious intent to mirror, my own eye movements, (essentially)back. But it’s normal and natural reaction.

        I wanted to write about this before but didn’t because it was so odd and I didn’t know if I would be able to express what actually occurred.

        The predatory stare is disturbing and can easily be mistaken for intense desire.

        But to manipulate bonding through the eyes — when the purpose is to use and then discard?? That is beyond sadistic. To do this to someone who is being treated for complex PTSD? Words fail me.

        I am okay. Have survived and moved on. I am very lucky to have been able to do so.

        1. My goodness Lisa, narcissism and hypnotism are quite the pair. I’m so glad you are alright. That one could turn out really bad. I would have never guessed but hypnosis could make the whole predator thing so much easier. Anyway, some of us have all the luck, right!!  He could have been really pervy when you were in a hypnotic state. It is really quite interesting when you stop and think that pervy to them is control and disrespect by a sadistic monster. My ex psycho looks at so much porn that he went to a computer store and got a deal where they would swipe his computer for a year for a simple price. He gets so many viruses and Spyware that his computer just quits working. I do not really want to think about the kind of porn that sicko looks at.

  4. My goodness this section really sums up a family situation for me… “Lying and manipulation are, and always have always been, close partners. Covertly aggressive individuals know that if they’re to succeed with their hidden, nefarious agendas, they have to be able not only to deceive but also to do so without being readily detected as being conniving. And, as I first pointed out in In Sheep’s Clothing, this strategy is at the very heart of manipulation.” I have been removing barbs from this person in recent times, thinking they had possibly changed but it’s so obvious and she’s changed her tactics recently knowing that I have become aware of the many ways of manipulation. It’s all about their hidden agendas, how true. Anyway where as once I would have been doing my head in wondering if I was imagining it I now know what’s going on and it doesn’t upset me as much in an emotional way. That’s her and she has always treated me in the same way. Now I physically remove the invisible barbs and flick them away and I don’t engage. Not anymore, I refuse to let someone ever bring me down in that way again. It’s just amazing to me how far they are willing to go…in the sense of creating an emotional rollercoaster to put someone on and still think they are hiding their true selves and all the while still pretending to love and care for you. Conniving sums her up nicely. Always has been and always will. Thankgoodness for friends the families you pick for yourself that’s all I can say.

    1. It has always been my biggest question HOW CAN SOMEONE BE SO EVIL TO SOMEONE WHO LOOKS UP TO THEM FOR LOVE AND SUPPORT. I could never figure out how someone would so easily destroy their own child. They have no boundaries and it is really funny when they turn on each other.

      1. Carrie
        I spent 46 of my 47yrs of my life trying to work that out. The point is I have now realised is YOU DO’NT. You throw in the towl and walk away. My uncle gave up at the age of 17yrs. Me I stood an took it. Decades of abuse. When you walk YOU WIN. I NOW UNDERSTAND.

        1. I love to hear success stories and I am glad you figured things out. I really like the NO CONTACT rule because it gives the predator a slap in the face because they don’t have the soul to feed off anymore. They go into deep depression until they find more soul food!!
          I am going through a really tough situation right now. RA has been the victim of MJ for over 50 years. MJ lies and gaslights RA everyday. I hate to see it and RA is still hoping that something is going to magically happen to make MJ nice. It does no good for me to try to talk to RA about it because he is not an out of the box kind of thinker and this kind of abuse is not the ordinary kind. (As we all know) RA is very special to me and I think just having me around is having more of an effect than I know.
          Keep up the good work!!

          1. When I took a self-defense class a little while ago the instructor said: “Just be there for someone you know who is going through verbal/emotional/physical abuse.”

            No one will leave until they’re ready, if every they are ready. But you are right, Carrie, having you there is a help – an available life raft / understanding ear /shoulder to cry on when needed. Knowing we’re not alone is HUGE.

          2. I understand stand that things are a little overwhelming right now. 50 years is not just a drop in the bucket. I can see gradual changes.Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

  5. Tori, so from the heart, isn’t easier to just to be true, true to yourself and others. To think this is the way all the CD choose to live their lives and their main agenda is to pull you down with them. Some of the CD are so sneaky but with the help of this site and educating oneself at least we are armed with the knowledge to see what use to cause confusion and because of our good nature be drawn in. I had to wear glasses since I was 5 and when I couldn’t see I was confused and unsure. Now that the blinders are off all that confused and puzzled are now clear.

    Its so sad the waste of human life, but the worst part is the CD wants to and enjoys destroying as many lives as they can. At least we took back our lives, even if we are old ladies now. (Smiles and Hugs)

  6. Dr. Simon
    How do you deal with a covert aggressive liar on the stand in a never ending high conflict divorce case? How can you successfully demonstrate that they are indeed spouting lies? This “charming” manipulator seems to have the judge believing his lies and ignoring evasive rambling replies. The crocodile tears have seemed to persuade the judge that he is very honest and caring.
    Since this is a “no fault” state, the primary reason for the divorce (his infidelity, lying and betrayal of the family) cannot be mentioned. He is refusing to agree on anything and seems intent on destroying his spouse, no matter the cost. Are there any lawyers who are experts in dealing with type of an individual? We are at our wits end!!

    1. I am so sorry got you and your family.  I  have a friend who went through the same kind of situation.  She has four kids who were dragged right along with her. She ended up losing custody of the children because her ex seemed to have the judge, lawyers, and even therapists caught up in his Web of lies. After five years she got the kids back. I’m not sure how because I have moved to a different state. Our court system is not set up to deal with these covert narcissist individuals. It is unfortunate!
      I can tell you what I did though. I divorced a hardcore psychopath. He had done horrible things and did not want it to be taken you court. I was not dealing with the underhanded psychopath as much as the crooked lawyer. He knew that I had been emotionally abused by this individual so he was just going to continue the cycle. I dealt with his crap for about ten months and then contacted the bar association for my state. That would be an option for you and I just found all the information for the state bar on the Internet.Best of luck to you and I hope everything works out!! (Hugs)

      1. Your wife sounds like a real prize. I was married and deeply manipulated by an outsider. It was bad enough once, I can’t I imagine putting a spouse through that more than once, even if the relationship isn’t very close or is weird and iffy in some ways.

        The only argument my husband and I had afterward was about who was most at fault. I argued that I was and he argued that he was!

        I can’t imagine having to suffer someone who can’t admit to personal mistakes or failure. It’s a terrible character weakness.

  7. Dr. Simon Please do not publish my name
    How do you deal with a covert aggressive liar on the stand in a never ending high conflict divorce case? How can you successfully demonstrate that they are indeed spouting lies? This “charming” manipulator seems to have the judge believing his lies and ignoring evasive rambling replies. The crocodile tears have seemed to persuade the judge that he is very honest and caring.
    Since this is a “no fault” state, the primary reason for the divorce (his infidelity, lying and betrayal of the family) cannot be mentioned. He is refusing to agree on anything and seems intent on destroying his spouse, no matter the cost. Are there any lawyers who are experts in dealing with type of an individual? We are at our wits end!!

        1. I could not find the webmaster link. So I sent Dr Simon an urgent email.
          This should not happen. The “leave a reply” box should altert a newbie that their “name” should be a pseudonym.

  8. I am SO lucky to have avoided seriously disturbed liars, for the most part. And I do attribute that to luck.

    But…when I was targeted by a super slick lying psychopath, I didn’t have the background or knowledge to comprehend it.

    White lies I can sense and they’re easy because there is often a practical aspect to them, as Dr.Simon mentioned.

    We all know there is only one answer to the question, “Do these pants make my butt look big?” LOL.

    Black and very clever lies, I hadn’t experienced. So, even though my very first instinct upon meeting P was that there was something very wrong, I dismissed it. His kind thoughtful behavior made up for any initial misgivings. The only way I can explain my very first impression of him was that his voice was off. It was like watching a dubbed film where the character’s words are a little to slow. The words are just slightly lagging and out of synch with mouth movements.

    I feel now that this is a ‘tell’. Rather than being initial awkwardness at meeting, this is a psychopath whose speech is slightly slowed down because he is busy doing a tremendous amount of mental calculus based on ‘profiling’ you.

    They aren’t nervous, they are just computing a ginormous data stream and then programming the ‘right’ response.

    Had I read Dr.Simon’s books, or Dr.Hare’s books, I would have at least been more prepared for the reality.

    I couldn’t believe that anybody would gleefully engage in a fairly prolonged deception, either for fun or for payback for a perceived slight.

    1. It’s an intricate web of lies, every word that springs from their mouth as they try to mirror your beliefs and create their own facade. How exhausting it must be for them to continually be on the defensive, creating chaos to make the victim feel so paranoid and crazy for even thinking they might be lying. It must be such a relief for them when they discard their victims and allow the real person they are to emerge and show the truth. The cruelty of that time is devastating for the victim but so freeing for the psychopath I would think. It’s almost gleeful they way they inflict the pain. How he can inflict the pain he has on his own child is something I’ll never come to terms with and I can’t even begin to imagine the damage he’s caused him.

      1. This is a great way of putting it. They love to cause pain. Children and animals are the ultimate victims for them. As long as they are lying and manipulating someone they are feeding their soul. The psycho has no soul so he/she needs the nourishment of another soul. Take away their supply and watch them slip into depression.

    2. LisaO,  I can definitely relate. I had my hardcore P do the same thing. He would see a red bird in the front yard and try his best to make you believe it was blue. His mom told me that his real dad was the same way. My ex P is the lowest kind of pond skum there is. Unfortunately I have a child with him and I should have gotten complete custody of him but at the time I was looking forward to getting out of the marriage and going to start a new life. Very sad story!! I don’t understand how someone can get pleasure out of sucking another’s soul.
      My son went to visit his father over the summer. His father has a new girlfriend who is just very sweet and innocent.  (Every psycho’s dream.) She is from another country and the P is manipulating that to fit into his giant scheme. He also talked her into giving up her house and moving in with him. Poor woman has so many strikes against her already. I am in a different state with my son and the few minutes that I am around them I can see all the emotional abuse. It makes me  sad to watch the same tricks that I fell for happen to someone else. Just like you mentioned he listens very closely to every word she says so he can use it against her. He constantly lies to her and she gets very upset and throws up a lot.
      I hope and pray that she realizes soon that he lies as easily as he breathes. I would love to help her! 

      I definitely believe that this psychopath was a bad egg from the beginning.
      Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone——– Original message ——–

        1. It would be very nice. The major problem that I am concerned about is the fact that she lives with the dark individual and it would be hard for me to get it to her undetected. I have a young son with the psycho and I don’t want him to suffer for what I do. Last, I don’t want the woman to have extra abuse because I am taking an interest in being her friend.
          If you have any ideas on how I can work with any of these that would always be appreciated. I know the greatest thing I can do right now is just pray.

          1. Hi Carrie Parrish, For all its worth think back when you met your X, you listened to him and wanted to believe the best. No doubt this other gal does too. In all probability she will not listen. It would be nice if she did read Dr.Simons book.

            However, as hard as it might be to understand, this the new girlfriend is not your responsibility. Their are womens shelters for this exact reason, you may want to go yourself. I’m sure if you talked with someone there they would tell you the same thing. You have enough to worry about with your child and working to provide a stable home. Getting involed with the X in any way keeps the drama and triagulation going.

            I know you mean well, but for your own good and now you have another life your child to provide saftey for, forget about her. Knowing what you know stay as far away as possible and sever as many ties as possible.
            You are in my prayers and blessings

          2. We are in a different state altogether. I am in the place with my dad and he protects me so there is no way I am going to a shelter. It just saddens me to watch what is going on with her. I have seen her three times and she has hugged me twice. I take that as meaning she wants a friend. I know she probably would not listen to me. I do understand that the best thing I can do is pray for her. I realize there is not much more I can do. I am waiting for the first time she reaches out to me.

  9. When they lie, they lie do’nt they. It is like breathing to them. A need in their black hearts.
    They just see what they want and lie to get it. They feel no remorse or guilt. They just lie. The grand daughter has let me pick up my things from it’s house. The e-mail I got was just bad. Lieing by distortion, lieing by Omittance just like breathing. These D.C’s are a different species I swear.

    1. Hi Joey, Glad you got your stuff out. No contact is an important step with these demons. Glad you grab that bull by the horns!!

    2. Hi Carrie, I am glad you and your child are safe and in a different state. At the Woman’s Resource Center she can utilize support groups, counselors, legal advocates and other services they offer. If she need a safe place to go that is available in many areas too. I went there myself and found it very humbling and at the same time full of support and resources. That is what I meant.

      Since you seem to have somewhat of a rapport with her she may reach out to you at some point. Remember first and foremost be safe and think of yourself and your child. If he should find out he may feel you are instigating trouble and focus on you. I know these individuals are many times cowards but at the same time never underestimate their hateful and vindictive personality.

      My heart goes out to all these woman and men who are sucked in by these manipulative and abusive individuals. So many of us are just good natured and giving people. The key is to surround ourselves with like minded individuals and never think we can change or help these CD people. The most we can do is not have anything to do with them thereby shutting down their supply. Also, when we can hold them accountable immediately for their actions. As Dr. Simon says their are consequences for their actions. This is the most loving thing we can do for them. Deny any source of supply and hold them accountable, in essence they need to grow up.

      Carrie many times the churches have resource programs too. Blessings

      1. Thanks Julianne for your concern. I have lived with these dysfunctional individuals for many years. I realize that they are very unpredictable and scary. I just think back to when I was with the psychopath and what I needed most was a friend and someone to tell me that I was not crazy. The psycho tried to talk me into changing jobs so I would have no friends and no one to talk to. It never happened with me but the new girlfriend changed jobs so now she is completely dependant on him. She just needs to know that she has a friend. I am not looking to rush In and deal directly with the phycho again. I am just waiting for her to make the first move and confide in me. The girlfriend was in a very abusive situation in her home country. I would hope that she begins to recognize the abuse sooner. I will be sure to point out the options that you have given me if she chooses to confide in me. Thanks!!

  10. I’m sorry to hear all the grief and sad stories. Yes, the lawyers come in and rape and abuse you after the CD is done or during your ordeal. That’s what disgusting low parasitic leeches they are and no doubt with the exception of a few all rate high on the CD spectrum. I am so glad you identified them as demons because in my Christian studies they are right out of hell to be sure, there is no other way to explain it.

    LisaO Its interesting you noticed the speech abnormality, I have been noticing that too, in ones that I have been encountering. The one thing that stood out when I first met the CD was there was something so sinister in the eyes, I saw it only for a brief second and I was utterly and alarmingly confused, but then the eyes changed. If you have ever watched a preying mantis eyes they eerily look like a psychopaths. The siblings I deal with at times have this same glazed wild creepy smug look.

    Do any of you remember the movie in the late 50’s called the Bad Seed? Another movie called The Portrait of Dorian Gray. It will be interesting when science finds out why the CD is, I think they are a result of their environment. Ship them all to another planet to feast on each other.

    1. Oh yes, the are right out of the depths of hell. The bible states that in end times people will be lovers of themselves and then gives a further description of these individuals.  I can also agree that I noticed the eyes of the narc. It always was a look of a person who didn’t have a soul. A certain sparkle also comes to their eyes when they destroy somebody.

  11. I would like to say that I think that when you lie to your self. You have problems, I know this from my own experience. I lived in my grand/mothers house all my life. 46 yrs in total. I new all the answers my self as Dr Simon says ” You have that gut feeling” which I did. Because I did not listen to that feeling, it cost me a great deal.

    1. I have got to admit that I have ignored my gut feeling a lot too. I often would just ignore those feelings and say to myself, “No one can be that mean.” Hahaha

      1. Just like to thank you and say .I have now taken all my thing from her house. I will add to this that I have reported the grand-daughter to the police. One of my possessions is missing. Nothing will come of it. But it is sort of a closer for me. She mother has tryed to stab me before and put the same knife to my throat and told me to shut my FFFF mouth. I did not involve the police then.
        I should have. I have watched her for decades do all sorts of nasty things to me and others in the family.
        I have of this moment gone no contact. She can do what ever. She will not do anything to me again ever.

        1. Good for you!! There’s no feeling like getting rid of a narc, right? I have found that when you don’t give the psycho the chance to screw you over somehow then they get really crazy. I love to see them shake because their plans don’t work. Hugs!!

        2. I’m happy for you joey, but so sorry for the pain you’ve had to go through. We become braver and more “ourselves” with each step we take towards our own freedom.

  12. I just finished helping a local woman escape to a woman’s shelter. I was one of a few who surrounded her and got her out of a crazy situation with a man who is a really loose cannon. Talk about manipulations. He had her convinced that if she called the police it would backfire on HER! Because she’s a foreigner, new in town and has no family here, he had free reign.

    I met him and although he came across as nice and friendly, she figured I wouldn’t believe what he was like at home. I told her that not only did I believe her but could see many red flags, right off the bat.

    I told her his threats about the police going after her were groundless and she had to call them for assistance to get out of there. She did. Then the whole help apparatus kicked in and she will be out of the house this afternoon.

    She is riddled with guilt because this is the second CD man who has taken advantage of her in the last 11 years. She kept saying,”what’s wrong with me?” I had to keep reinforcing the fact that CD’s like sweet innocent people who have little in the way of a support system and she had to just educate herself about personality disorders, not blame herself for being trusting and a good person. So, think that helped. But , Wow, did this guy ever lie to control her!

    1. That’s so great. You are probably walking on clouds right now. Narcs are wonderful manipulators. They know all the lies that a only a warped mind can think of. I’m really glad she is safe and doesn’t go back to him. I helped a neighbor and her kids so much and she would just go right back to the idiot the next day. It is really sad how much the psychos can damage an innocent mind and then the victim runs back to what is familiar. This is the beginning to a very damaging circle. I do agree, she needs to get knowledge about the dark individuals to break the cycle completely.
      My ex psycho also has a girlfriend who is from another country. She was in a very abusive marriage before so it was very easy for her to fall back into the comfort zone. She’s apart from the majority of her family. She needs a support system. I make sure my son keeps in close contact with her. We just sent her a card and presents. I have only been around her a short amount of time but she is showing signs of his damage. Yes, she is ripe for the psychos pickin’.

    2. Oh so lucky she had you LisaO, what a relief it must have been for her to have someone understand completely. Your words of encouragement will make a huge difference to her both now and in the future. Kudos to you for not sitting back and actively going to help this woman and really care. A wonderful person you are…inspiring. 🙂

      1. I think that was always my toughest issue to deal with. No on wanted to believe me and in my family children are very seldom even acknowledged. No one believed me then and they will not think out of the box right now so it’s hard for me to talk to them now. When my big psycho was wreaking his havoc on my small family I kept to myself. (Much of the abuse is unmentionable) I knew somehow they would just turn it around to be my fault. My dad tells me now that he would have taken care of the issue but I still have my doubts.

    3. Good for you LisaO!! I think many of us asked “what’s wrong with me” when interacting with the crazy-making of a CD; I know I couldn’t wrap my head around the thought that someone related to me – and therefore supposedly had some sort of filial feeling – would be deliberately cruel, insulting and dismissive. I thought I was just too sensitive or took things too personally.

      I’m sure the woman you helped is relieved at finding validation for her feelings and that She is not the one who’s wrong – the lying, manipulative piece of garbage she was involved with is the guilty party.

      1. This is the ultimate goal for the predator. Unknowingly we all fall for it and believe it is something we did.

      2. GG, thanks! It is easy to see how one CD begets another in someone’s life. They are the experts at ‘comforting the broken hearted’. So this bullshit that more than one encounter with lowlife scum means the victim shares equal responsibility for being equally disturbed is hogwash.

        A friend of mine is into this kind of easy ‘formula for life’ thinking and psychobabble and it was disturbing being in her company while I was trying to help ‘Kathy’.

        If I hear one more person use the words “accept responsibility” outside of proper context, or in a dismissive reductionist way, I will scream!

        1. Lisa, You are so funny! I love when people say something that is very familiar to my life and it sparks a memory. I have been going around with my sister for many years. She has always been out to destroyed me but it got really bad when she became an adult. She is a very weak individual and doesn’t start her crap until she is in a group. She waited until the whole family was together and then she started chirping. She told me that I needed to pull up my big girl panties and quit living in the past. (She loved to try and convince me of this so she could continue her evil ways.) She made smile because I knew what she was up to. I just ignored the narcs completely and played on the computer. They had the whole scenario figured out in their minds that I was going to freak out and run away. Lmao..
          I can only imagine how difficult it would be to try to help someone when you have one of the psychobabble individuals around. Many of the individuals I know can not think out of the box long enough to think that there are dysfunctions that they do not understand. I get upset when someone tells me that I should mind my own business when I can see someone going through the same abuse I went through. Isn’t this whole blog about helping people who are dealing with the monsters?!  People become victims of these demons because they are sweet and innocent and not because the choose the battle! It is hogwash…hahahaha 

          1. Carrie,

            When my bro was visiting, he wasn’t nasty or dismissive as much as wanting to blame anyone and anything for his own failings. And he was very unnerved because he didn’t get any kind of argument or agreement from me. I was polite, listened, was sympathetic to a degree, but must have left him with the over all impression that I wasn’t buying it. He is very adept at deflecting blame and always has been.

            If you go all neutral on those who are trying to get a reaction from you (even if they are trying to reconcile, but haven’t really apologized) it shakes them to their core.

            The only way to ‘win’ this game is to quit caring who ‘wins this game.’ For people like you and me it has never been about a personal win — it’s about establishing emotional logic with irrational human beings.

            They are are ego inflated, ego damaged, egoistic. People who have an overblown idea of themselves, whatever the cause, have self images based on fantasy. When we fail to react as the self involved anticipate, it really rocks their world.

            Good for you that you didn’t react, Carrie. I hope it was effortless because you are past caring deeply!

            I’m fine with caring about my bro as a damaged person. But I can never care deeply for him as a friend and psychologically healthy compatriot again. We are very much alike in many ways, but in the crucial area of empathy and compassion, we are miles apart.

            Like your family, mine can no longer hurt me. My family was never ‘mean vicious’, just profoundly indifferent, at the most crucial times.

            And indifference is the opposite of love. It is a feeling of nothingness when faced with someone’s despair — though they work hard to appear caring — (particularly sister). And they are like that, to some degree, with everybody. It is their attitude towards their fellow man. More than anything, it’s pitiful.

          2. Lisa, You offer some very insightful thoughts!!Yes, the narc mind does require complete adoration. My ex psycho always asked me what I would do if something happened to him. I never replied with the loving submissiveness that he wanted so I was labeled B****. We fought a lot because I was never quite as much doormat as he wanted. Lmao….
            I am right down here with mommy narc again. She doesn’t talk to me much because I don’t fall for her BS anymore. My son is down here with me and she gives me a lot to teach my son about. I don’t ever remember her using so many excuses so that she doesn’t have to accept responsibility. She says, “That is just my sense of humor!” When she says something hurtful that is her go to line. When she makes a mistake she says, “I’m so tired!”When she buys the wrong thing at the store she says, “There was so many people in there!” When someone calls her out on something she throws a fit like a two-year-old. Anything to get attention!! It makes me laugh now because I feel so much more in control. Knowledge is power! She can always blame everything on someone else. I am the skapegoat child so she tries to blame me for everything but it is good to be able to say I DON’T CARE!!

          3. Carrie, if anything people are taken advantage of because they take responsibility regularly, for themselves and everyone else!

            That line about “taking responsibility” is so laughably inappropriate. Or, “what is it about YOU that keeps attracting these people into your life?”

            Like being a caring human being is a crime.

            ‘Kathy’ broke into tears when I grabbed her by her shoulders, told her that she wasn’t targeted because there was something wrong with her — but because she has so much right with her. I could see this great burden lift off of her.

            I just got an email from her saying she couldn’t have left without my help. I did very little, really. What surprises me is that anybody wouldn’t have done what I did, because, “it’s not their responsibility”.

            Interesting upside down world with inverted moral values. Inside out, backwards and upside down!

            And oh the psychobabble. The amount people use is directly proportional to their lack of real wisdom.

          4. Yup, Lisa, I am the proud owner of a malignant narc mommy. Narcs run in families and that side of the family has an overabundance. I have read many books about the mommy narc and the skapegoat daughter. Mommy narcs are always jealous of their daughters. N’s age does not even reach 13. She throws fits like a 2 year old. It is hilarious to see.  She never has liked my dad having anything to do with me. She has always used her exceptional ability to lie to start her smear campaign about me. If she wasn’t lying about me to my dad then she was lying about my dad to me. Hahahaha… Oh well, I am over it and healed. It is funny now but not so much then.
            At the time when we were all being used and abused the greatest thing anyone could have done is hug us and say that we did not do anything wrong but everything right and that is what makes the dark side come after us. People who have gone through the storm are so much more empathetic. I can remember when my fantastic friend told me that I was dealing with narcissism. I did research on it and such a giant burden was lifted off my shoulders. My life made sense. I am soooo thankful that he took the time to listen and not judge. I am sure that Kathy wants to scream to the heavens that she is finally free!!
            It makes me laugh when I see a funny joke about our society pulling out their smartphones taking pictures instead of helping.  Really it’s not funny but this is just what happens so often. I’m proud of you for helping and I am really proud of her for loving herself enough to stay gone!! I could not believe it when someone told that it is really not my problem when I asked for ideas on how to help my friend. Then someone told that being her friend was probably the best thing.
            That’s right, the more psychobabble there is the bigger the pile of BS. One of the things that tipped me of to the x’s excess lying was the line of drama and the immense tales. He is such a piece!! Lmao….Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

  13. LisaO, noticed your mention of psychos slowing down when they’re busy profiling a target. Creepy as always these matters are. At least some do slow down, right?

    1. Hi Timothy,

      Lying to targets requires a tremendous amount of mental processing. Manipulators have to make conversation while mentally backtracking — going over past lies and covering them to create the consistent picture they are after.

      It’s like they are authoring and starring in an ongoing movie they construct as they go along. And different targets may be characters in entirely different movies.

      I know…weird…but you can see why their speech would have to slow down as they put this all together. Imagine doing improvisational theatre all of the time, but instead of having to make sense for the length of a skit, you had to keep it up for years.

      Maybe they ‘trip up’ because some of the movies they create end up boring them and the intricacy of design required to maintain the illusion isn’t worth it to them any longer.

      As far as slow speech goes, I am speaking from personal experience and from a few things I have heard over the years. I don’t know if it’s a common red flag or not

      . Some of us normals slow our speech down because we are being careful not to lose our tempers or let anxiety take over in emotional situations, so it’s important not to over interpret and over extend this ‘red flag’ to everyone who does this.

    2. LisaO,

      Interesting.

      I’ve myself known some folks, who just lie and lie and lie for no seeming reason or perhaps no reason really as well as some really irresponsible and ill-mannered ones. With some have I really believed that maybe they did have some legit problems(?) and surprise, whatever other problem they had(whatever mental health issue or external issue) wasn’t the really THE problem. And it really seems to work for them! Nasty, jolly jellybeans.

      But kinda surprised about that slowing down thing. Always had the complete opposite impression myself. Again I come digging up something someone else has said here. I noticed someone mentioned the low road and the high road of the brain. The first one goes automatically, the second one’s about deliberation, that slowing down. Also saw a comment By Dr Simon about how psychopaths have NOTHING autopilot about them, which puzzles me, too.

      1. I can remember how I spent hours trying to figure out which dysfunction caused my ex psycho to lie and lie without taking a breath but I really couldn’t. I would have to say that the biggest reason will probably always be because he is a psycho. I used to work with a young girl who was very sweet but she could lie as fast as she could talk. It always amazed me how she didn’t even have time to think because it was all so natural. I could tell by her body language when she was using the immense fabrications to get her way. It got to be such a joke that I didn’t want to be around her.
        I used to work customer service at a truck stop and met a lot of different people with out of the ordinary personalities. Some of the psychos that came in went through the routine in slow motion. Most of them, however, we’re very cool and collected. They always tried to win you over and size you up at the same time. One boy (about 25) stands out in my mind. He was very scary and basically sucked your soul out the minute he saw you. He did move in slow motion and his eyes were undressing you. He was very demanding and tried to gaslight whenever he could. His stare was also very intense. His speech was slow as he wanted to draw in your attention and affection. He was definitely an individual who could make people very uncomfortable.

      2. Hi Timothy,

        I think it’s important to contrast narcissists and psychopaths. They are similarly remorseless and egoistic but, I feel that the simple narcissist is very concerned about the impression he makes purely because he cares SO much what people think of him (or her) I have a feeling that psychopaths care what people think only insofar as it enables them to accomplish a task. The task is usually predation.

        They are apparently on the same continuum, but they seem to be quite different. The narcissist is probably more the consummate smooth talker, schmoozy, sales person type.

        1. This smooth talking ability shows why so many are lawyers, politicians, and I knew an overabundance in the marketing field.

      3. Carrie and LisaO,

        Slowdown pause or not, such liars are incredible. I guess when you call out a lie they just as smoothly switch to another lie or tactic as we’d perform some automatized function.

      4. And Carrie, that 25-year old man sounds very, very scary. Almost can feel the chills from there. Such a gaslighter and such a vampire.

        Kinda unrelated here, but someone(Andy?) mentioned a book By Malachi Martin that detailed people’s experiences of the Devil and while I haven’t read the book, I can get how some people could give a similar feeling. It’s like some lower part of our brains is having a primal reaction or something.

        1. He was very scary! He came in more than once. Each time my skin crawled. It is funny that you mentioned an experience with the devil because I definitely have one. I believe that there are angels on this earth and there are also demons waiting to attack. I am very sad when I think about the number of demons that I have encountered.
          When my daughter left for the university she was a sweet peaceful individual who had a shiny gem of excitement in her eyes. She got mixed up with the wrong crowd and they fixed it where she could not come how to see me and they started brainwashing tactics from day one. I took my other kids and went to see her the first Christmas she was away from home. She was so excited and she took us around to see all the different sights. It was a fantastic trip.
          She was posting pictures on Facebook and that is the only way I got to see her. I could see her eyes getting more and more callous. One of the very last pictures that I saw of her was very scary. She had a very distant look in her eyes and a soulless expression on her face. I hate to say it but she tangled with the devil. She had an unfortunate accident and I have so many questions still.

        2. Carrie, you say she tangled with the devil and started looking more and more distant. I’m sorry that happened. That’s very sad and shouldn’t happen or more like one thing that shouldn’t happen, but still does. No one wants that to happen to anyone they care about.

          Of course I don’t know how it is from here, but if I was to guess, I’d suspect such thig as “grooming”. Usually used as a term for sexual exploiter modus operandi(uuugh), I’ve also heard it used for when someone persuades someone else to cross one line after another, starting from minor transgressions and going from there. Diabolical.

          1. A tremendous amount of lies and manipulation took place, I know that much. Thanks for your concern!!

      5. Timothy–Nasty jolly jelly beans, alright! That’s a great expression! Sounds British!

        Maybe the autopilot feature refers to our speaking in a spontaneous way that has been honed by past deliberations, rooted in morality and empathy? Most people are decent to others and relatively honest — and do so without having to think about it? At our most deceptive, we are trying to spare feelings and it is effortless. “I dyed my hair green, don’t you love it?” We don’t skip a beat when we respond, “absolutely.”

        So, it doesn’t surprise me that P’s are described as lacking this kind of natural expression, or lacking the autopilot feature. It is probably near imperceptible in some. But there is a dissonance there, to the intuitive ear, at least there was for me – and I ignored it, because it didn’t make rational sense, at the time.

        And to follow up on the psychopathic stare. There is the stare, which is intrusive. Then there is the P gaze which is seductive, designed to bond with us. The stare feels like a break and enter. It can feel like intense desire, depending on a number of factors. The gaze is a an invitation to unleash your soul.

        When I was young the only man who looked at me hard and long was my father just before he hit me. I was learning to overcome this with the P’s ‘help’.

        I found it difficult to be looked at by a man. I honestly think this is one of the reasons I felt I would be able to be with my husband. As weird as it sounds and as hard as it was, on a deep level, I didn’t feel threatened around him because he didn’t look at me more than fleetingly, except on a couple of occasions. The P used ‘the gaze’ gently to draw my soul out of hiding.

        Most people are abused by people who are spontaneously angry or disturbed, even narcissistic, but it is overt. It’s horrible and soul destroying, in it’s own way. To have somebody tell you they want to help you, read up on PTSD, so they know how best to hurt you and then blindside you with the worst pain you have ever felt in your life, is outside the pale.

        It has been an eye opener, believe me. I didn’t know such creatures existed. I don’t think I have suffered anymore than anybody here, and by reading all of the stories, probably a lot less than many of you. It was just the nature of it that was uniquely horrible. I really didn’t see it coming, at all. Not in the way it did.

        Lulu–if you wrote a book, I just finished one overweight tome!

        1. Correction! It reads like I am writing about one person in post above about psychopathic gaze, stare, etc…I am writing about two different people. My husband, who ‘turned away’ — but who was morally a very good person, and the P who turned towards me, but who turned out to be morally depraved.

          1. My brother lived in a different state for 38 years and had virtually no contact with us. Not from our lack of trying. We’ve since learned;
            He identifies himself as an introvert but he is most assuredly non-empathetic and antisocial with that tell tale blank stare and is a vile covert emotional abuser when his ego is hurt.
            The only reason I found out his true nature is because his marriage failed and he was removed from his home by police and put into rehab. Because my parents worried about him we offered him a new place to start over again, we had something to give so this was the ONLY reason he reconnected with us. The first statement out of his mouth upon arrival was “I decided to call your bluff and take you up on your offer”. To us it meant we had to prove that we wanted him. It was an awkward moment.

            We provided him privacy, shelter, food, transportation to AA meetings and job interviews and so on and so on. He sort of kept it together for about a month and then things started to come to the surface more frequently. I consider myself to be very intuitive and right from the beginning I noticed lies, especially since he took no responsibility for where he ended up. He had no marriage, never any friends, he was estranged from his only child, no work history of any substance or longevity, recovering from alcoholism, but none of this was his fault. His reasoning was the red flag. He lived in the marital home basement for 2 years without working, he was born an alcoholic, it was his wife’s fault that he couldn’t loose weight and the whopper was when he blamed my parents for his getting married to his wife in the first place…OMG! This conversation was the DAY AFTER we picked him up from the airport.

            I had to spend 10 days in my home alone with this man. My mother had told me years ago when he lived at home that she didn’t like it when my father travelled. Oh boy. My CD sibling became sullen and dark to the point where I didn’t want to go home. I locked my bedroom door at night and when I went to bed he would creep up and forage in the fridge. There were stretches where he would stay in the dark in the basement for up to 10 hours with no bathroom break until I went to bed. I contacted friends who advised me to get the hell out of here. So I confronted him.
            You’d think I’d lit a fire under his ass. He made arrangements to move out very quickly and it was my confronting him that was the catalyst. He fled but not before blaming it all on me. He covertly turned to another sibling whom the CD considered his “hero”. The hero sibling who was made aware of what happened in our home chose to take his younger brother under his wing and bring him into his family because “it didn’t happen to them”. The CD brother didn’t live with them but he was invited into their lives often. We were not.
            On the rare occasion we were all at the same gathering I could hardly contain my contempt because I would witness my CD sibling use his superficial charm on everyone. Three years later at a family gathering he let his mask down and his hero family witnessed something they didn’t like, it was the final straw for me.
            I have one steadfast rule and it is this. If I’m disrespected and no apology or explanation is forthcoming I will have nothing to do with the person who disrespected me.
            We were at this gathering to appease the hero brother, his wife and family and to celebrate the reunion of the CD and his estranged daughter.

            I confronted the CD by letter, not because I expected an apology or an explanation but to clearly state the consequences of his behaviour and it was to cut him out of our lives forever. Holy shite batman my phone exploded!!! I’ve never responded to him once. The heroes wife confronted him too and he said “it was a joke”. He has gone into hiding from them as well. Our ailing 88 year old mother is wondering where he is. The CD phoned her and told her he was depressed and becomes anxious thinking about visiting her. Nice son eh? He doesn’t answer the SILs texts or respond to invitations by her and I’ve asked where her boundaries are when afterall he betrayed her trust. She is a born again Christian she explained and therefore she must reach out to him. We are so out of this situation. I am down one brother and I have not one moment of regret. He now has written proof my husband and I know who he is. The lying doesn’t seem to alter the allegiance the hero brother, wife and family have for him. They said he only needs to apologize.
            LisaO I’m particulary interested in your thoughts. BTW I love this forum and I’m anxiously awaiting the arrival of Dr. Simon’s 2 books.

  14. Oh, the attorneys……yes, I was the crazy one. A few months before we separated, CD did our tax return. We had taken a chunk of money out of our IRA so we owed a bunch in taxes. I can still see him looking right at me and saying that he paid the tax but not the penalty. Went into a rant when I questioned that.
    Fast forward, I opened an envelope from the IRS, he had not paid the tax. Never forget that feeling of shock and devastation, not only because there was now a big tax issue, he had so easily told me an enormous lie. Just like breathing. It was his problem, not mine, so he had to take care of it.
    Early the next year, I emailed him that he was not to file a joint return. He said okay and filed a joint return the next day. By this time I knew better so I contacted the IRS and, surprise, joint return.
    My attorney made him resubmit, this time NOT jointly.
    Some time later I contacted the IRS, although he told his attorney that he had re-filed, he had not. This time the Little Voice said get a copy. When it came I saw that HE HAD FALSIFIED THIS RETURN. He had a pension income which he omitted. Again, so easy to get caught since they have computers to match up SS numbers. Do you think this guy just does whatever he wants??
    I emailed my attorney (are you hearing the cha-ching as my bill goes up?) about what I had received. He called right back telling me that I was wrong, he had a copy of CD’s Turbo Tax return filled out correctly. I told him what I had was from the IRS, trump card.
    Somehow he had been able to use Turbo Tax to create a false return.
    Yet each attorney kept on believing/dismissing all his deceptions. All the things he did, never a consequence.

    1. Lulu, yes, I know. Sigh. I am about to give up on telling people about yet another outrage my narc has wreaked. Because of all the people I told, I have one true ally, and two only partial ones. I find that even people who really know, and have been personally harmed by him, make excuses for him. I have begun to speculate that for many people, the belief of “everyone is basically good underneath” is simply too threatening to give up.

      So, congratulations to everyone on here. We are a small minority of people slowly growing, and we are the brave ones, having been willing to look reality in the face. Thank you all, my friends. Without this forum, I don’t know how I would survive yet another excuse, yet another “can’t be true” from someone I thought I could trust.

      1. Hi Vera!!
        I am so glad that you brought up this subject. I have dealt with this dilemma since day 1. Malignant narcs and a wholelot of psychological warfare. It is amazing how one bad seed can keep the whole family in her grips. LOL… I have never been able to put a name to this dysfunction and, of course, I was frustrated. I have felt so much better since I know what I am dealing with. I try to tell as many people as I can, not because I want to gossip but because this is a very serious issue. I get comments like,”The more you talk about them, the more you are like them,” or one of my very favorites is, “You just need to let things go.” Of course, a smear campaign against me began a long time ago. All the narc’s in this family don’t get my adoration so they spread all kinds of stupid stuff trying to defame my character. I was told that my hormones are severely out of balance and I am not a prophet so I don’t know what I am talking about.
        Yes friends, we have not only gone head to head with the devil but people are not willing to think out of the box and listen to something that goes against the normal way of reasoning. These kinds of forums are a blessing for so many. Kisses to all and keep the knowledge flowing.

        1. Carrie, so true! They are always telling me I need to let go and focus on the present, and when I tell them that I am (e.g. focusing on the present lies my narc tells me), they just rattle off some other nonsense. They choose not to hear me. Or some are one of “them” — just another flavor. Sometimes I think they are compelled to defend one another.

          1. I had a roommate once and she was a huge paycho. I used to have my young son sleep with me because she was pure evil. She started to try all of her narcissist crap on me and her family and friends joined in. They were not quite as evil as she was but they were gaslighting. I got so sick of her really fast. I ended up cussing her out. She left me alone then. I didn’t have anymore problems with any of them. I just figured that the friends and family were joining in because they were scared of her. As long as she was spending all of her evil energy trying to destroy me than she was not as likely to harass them. She set out on her smear campaign after that. I really didn’t care what she did because I knew my true friends would not believe her.

  15. On the topic of Evil parents. My mother chose me to victimize, tortuous verbal and emotional words incessantly spewing out of her mouth. She got my 3 sibs to ridicule and mock me. So lovely.
    A couple of years ago, I was hit head on and very seriously hurt. Two and a half weeks in the ICU. My sons were driving back and forth from about 3 hours away, looking at me with all the machines, IVs, on a vent, terrified. Dad was living about an hour and a half away. Do you know what he did for his sons: NOTHING. Whatever CD did to me for nearly 40 years has evaporated, I have no feelings for him, good or bad. However, the mother lioness emerges when someone messes with her babies. I’m not sure I will ever get past that. How do you not show up when your children desperately need you?

    1. Lulu, We have a lot in common. Meeting one of these demented individuals and falling prey to their antics at a young age has got to be the ultimate abuse. I can not imagine how big the pump was to feed off my innocent soul. My mama narc always enjoyed seeing my terrified expression. I don’t really have much to do with her anymore. I just get upset when she starts her nonsense with my kids. It is amazing how they always have to be constantly feeding on someone! Yes, she also got my psycho sister to join in and she still does.
      I’m sorry to hear about your accident. Did you have a head injury? They doctors told me that I would have lingering effects but for the most part everything is fine. I hope you are doing well. Those rotten exes show there true colors all the time. It is amazing how they can just use whatever they can to cause harm in some way.
      I enjoy reading your posts. I can feel the warmth of your words.

      1. Thank you, Carrie, what a kind, lovely thing to read. The rest of my “family” is not warm at all, one of the ways I was so different. Now I know different is such a good thing when the comparison is with those DNA packets.
        This is of my favorites,too, they do something just shockingly mean to me, then manage to blame me. When you can finally step out and look at it, instead of being in survival mode and always reacting, it is almost funny now. Especially since I’ve gotten so much support, encouragement and validation here.
        Was unclear about accident….car was hit head on, thank goodness for air bags! Two smashed up vertebrae in my back, my right wrist was is in 5 or 6 pieces. After those two surgeries, I had to have an emergency splenectomy. In critical condition then. Started to recover, then my body started shutting down, back on vent. Then the power of a higher being, however that works for you, with all of the people doing what it is they do…..and I began to get better. Some residual difficulties but what could have been………so lucky, so grateful.
        It is so horrible, and wonderful at the same time, to know that you all get this because you’ve experienced it.

        1. Hi Lulu, Yes, I do have to agree that after being healed I was able to see the humor in their antics. I think it is really interesting to see the way they can turn everything around so they are always the victim.
          We both have issues with the people who are supposed to remain by our side. (Family) I have done some research on narcissist individuals and it seems to be rooted in some kind of abuse. I don’t ever remember seeing why some turn good and some bad. I think this would explain so much. Do you have any ideas?
          I used to work on the school bus. I was the aide on a special needs school bus. On one of the runs we hauled kids out of a behavior unit. Most of them were very psychotic. I heard so many scary stories. I even heard how some were ganging up on another boy to make him commit suicide. Most of them had siblings in a regular classroom. It would have been interesting to do more research on them.
          I can remember starting counseling and I was able to sense that something was wrong with my marriage but could not figure it out. All my life I had been told that I was a problem. The counselor could see that I was very confused. I started telling him that my husband could not be at fault because he had a bad childhood. The counselor looked at me and said, “Lots of people have had bad childhoods.” After that I started thinking about it and I didn’t turn out bad but the psycho did!!
          I am glad that you get healing here!! Keep up the good work!!

  16. The opposite of a lie is the truth. The kind man who wrote the heading article does so. He puts it in plain English as well so even a Twit like me (slang for a fool) can understand. Respect to you Doc.

    1. Don’t sell yourself short, Joey. There are many therapeutic tools on the web you can find. Be careful, of course, but I urge you to do some searching around.

      1. Timothy

        I am a FOOL. The point is Dr Simon tells the truth about these D.C’s. So I am learning not to be.
        My mother threatened to Slit My Guts With A 14″ inch carving Knife. I asked her the next day why she had done this. SHE PUT THE SAME KIFE TO MY THROAT AND TOLD ME TO SHUT MY FFFF MOUTH. I did not call the police and I stade another 20 yrs in her house. I am a Fool. OR WAS ?

        1. Joey, There is something called the Stockholm Syndrome and many times society does not want to hear and then there are times we have no place to go. I hope you have found peace.

  17. Hi Dr Simon,

    Thanks for your wonderful articles.

    I’m looking forward to your examples that illustrate what can happen when a person’s incapacity/unwillingness to be truthful reaches a level that they begin to believe their own lies.

    As my ex-wife and I were approaching the end of our marriage, we had an acouple of in depth discussions. I had evolved and was grateful that I could acknowledge all the mistakes she happily pointed out I had made over the previous 20-odd years. I could explain what I did, why I did it, what I’d do differently now, and how I’d attempt to break the tit-for-tat cycle we had co-created. In reply, I asked her if she would state one mistake she had made over the 20 years. Just one. Her red face and accompanying silence spoke volumes.

    I had discovered that she was in an affair with a friend of mine. Her first response was that she’d been manipulated and she’d never see him again. It made sense, as I saw him as a master manipulator. Later, I found they had re-ignited their relationship. Again, she said she’d been manipulated. I, being a slow learner at times, forgave her again. After the third time, I said, “Well, I’ve been played for a fool”.

    In a subsequent course case against the both of them, I mentioned how she said she’d been manipulated into her relationship. Her reply was a classic – “I remember you telling me that I was manipulated, but I don’t remember saying it”.

    My daughter lived with them both for a few years. My daughter tells me he manipulates my ex-wife, like he did his previous wife, He uses belittling techniques. Yet my ex-wife, too, is a manipulator, particularly through the use of embellishment, minimisation, and shame & guilt. It seems they are two manipulators, together.

    Sincerely,

    Rod Lovell

    1. Hi Rod, Sorry to hear the you were mixed up with the dark side too. My ex was always very quick to point out what I was doing and how he was perfect. That illusion of grandeur that they have about themselves is the biggest reason they will never change. I finally got the locks changed while my ex was at work and that was the only way he knew I was serious! I can remember that even as he was leaving he told me, “I want you to know that this is not all my fault.” (Which meant he was clear of all wrongdoings.) I remember how he went crazy at the marriage counseling session when the psychologist hit the nail right on the head. After I told the therapist that I was done then my ex looked at the counselor and said, “I know that this marriage may be over but I want to continue on with you to make sure I am alright.” The therapist and I both knew that was a joke because he was a perfect individual who knew more than anyone else. Hahaha….. I think that they are always in control of their lying and manipulation. I really have an interesting story about my life. I grew up in a house full of manipulation, deceit, and lies. Of course when I first started school I was quite the liar and manipulator. I can remember how easy it was to lie to people and they believed every bit of it. I could manipulate all the kids and some teachers. The lies just rolled out of my mouth very easily and most of the time I didn’t even have to think about it. I never believed my own lies though. I was in a car accident and suffered brain damage and had to start life over again. Thank goodness I was forced to take a hard look at my whole situation. This was actually a blessing in disguise.
      It is kinda funny to see narcs lie to and manipulate each other. I can’t see the relationship between your ex and her manipulator lasting very long. I am glad you got out and joined this forum. We will be glad to help any way we can.

  18. The lying! Doesn’t it make you all shake your heads in disbelief! My narbro lies as a matter of course – it’s become second nature to him. As Dr. Simon points out, they lie even when telling the truth would be just as easy and not have any negative (in their minds) outcomes. He lies to portray himself either as Mr. Innocent in all things large and small, conveniently blaming his partner and/or partner’s family and/or the town he lives in and/or his place of employment, etc. etc., or as Mr. Genius and/or Mr. Savior.

    Now over the past year, I’ve started questioning everything that has come out of his mouth. And certain things can now be researched thanks to the internet 

    Narbro portrayed himself as a “knight in shining armor” about an incident in university he attended back in the 60s. He said he almost single-handedly spearheaded an anti-racism protest there and forced the university to change its policies. There is almost 10 years difference in our ages so I was around 10 when this took place, not anything that would have interested me too much at that age.

    A perusal through online university archives plus newspaper interviews with the main parties involved gives me a whole different version of events! Amazing, right?

    As far as being a protest, it was more of a “sit-in” (the 60s, right?). No blood was spilled, no one got hurt, and all ended peacefully.

    The ones who actually spearheaded the sit-in/protest were 5 undergrads from the Caribbean, here on temporary student visas, not my narbro. As for the professor they accused of racism, my sibling didn’t even get the gender right – he said it was a female prof when it actually had been a male professor (he didn’t get the subject matter correct either).

    A few hundred students were involved, so I imagine there was an inkling of truth in what he told me: narbro probably showed up at the beginning of the sit-in, then left and came home to my parents’ place (about 60 miles away) for the duration of the sit-in. Over 100 others stayed the course with the original 5, and the police eventually got called in. But as mentioned, nobody got hurt, nobody was arrested, everyone went home (or to the local pubs), and the bad publicity did shake up the administration at the university.

    Yet it all took place without narbro’s involvement – seeing as he wasn’t even there for most of it!

    Have any of you been able to untangle some of the lies you were told by your ex/sibling/parent/friend?

    1. Oh GG,

      That is just too funny. Mr ‘Power to the People’ wasn’t even at the event. Such selfless bravery. I guess it’s possible to change the course of history while cowering under a bed, though — or living in a different area, and just reading about the event.

      Really easy to lie with social media, too. Easier to lie and easier to get called out for it. But a clever narc or P could bs up a storm online and avoid being caught.

      ..Who was that TV anchorman who was caught doing the same thing, recently?It was pretty hilarious, because he comes across as SO sincere! Something about rescuing puppies from burning buildings or some such gooey crowd pleaser. What’s not to love. The man rescues puppies! Awwwww???? What kind of heartless individual would even question the truth of that one.

      And why did he lie? He had already scored the best job you can get on TV. Oh, the other one was that he had come under enemy fire while reporting in the Middle East. Barely escaped with his life. Didn’t happen. Wasn’t an exaggeration, it simply didn’t happen AT ALL.

      I had a friend whose husband made up an entire early life where he was a decorated Vietnam Nam war veteran, with a Purple Heart for heroism. This went on for over a decade. He was at war with the truth and that was all. Had never even been a tourist outside of his own country. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic for her when she found out.

      1. It really triggers a lot of memories when I talk to you Lisa. That is what makes for a good conversation and food for thought. Whatever it is, you make me laugh.
        My ex psycho spent time in the Navy. He has a lot of metals and other memorabilia. He had a heart attack and then had to have a quadruple bypass when we had barely gotten married. I kept telling him to go to the VA hospital and get everything paid for. He fought me tooth and nail!! He would not go. (I am so naive sometimes) He could make up lies so fast. I am sure he said something so believable. We ended up begging the hospital to write it off. We filled out hardship papers and qualified. We only paid about $500 of a $75,000 bill . After we got divorced then I got to thinking about it and he had gotten a dishonorable discharge and he didn’t want anyone to know what a slime bag he is. He even works for the post office and for him to get veteran’s preference he had to get his military records sent. He had some paragraphs marked out with black marker. (parts that said he got dishonorable discharge) I have heard him proudly announce some BS about showing somebody his DD214. I guess those are discharge papers. It is just amazing how fast he can think up those lies!! I feel very sorry for that lady who had her narc fabricate so much. It’s sad when we are taken advantage of like that.

      2. Yes, I remember the tv anchor and the coming under fire in the Middle East. And so easy to verify these days.

        At our Remembrance Day ceremony a fellow dressed up as a decorated veteran from having served in Afghanistan. Problem is, he got a “mix and match” uniform cobbled together and the medals were wrong and not pinned properly (probably went to army surplus or something like that). Just so happens a tv crew interviewed him. Well – every bona fide veteran who watched that newscast was all over it like a cat on catnip, phoning in, emailing and tweeting the news station, local papers, you name it.

        The fellow never ever served in the military, let alone seeing action – anywhere. Maybe video games.

  19. Timothy, dear, dear Timothy, please do not call yourself names, you do not deserve it. Sure it’s easy to look back and ask what was I thinking? A 14″ carving knife??? She had to be some kind of evil to do that to her child. Dark, dark evil. Every fiber of a mother’s being wants to protect her children. It’s hard wired.
    Mom and the Knife didn’t come out of nowhere, she had to have done lots of malicious groundwork. You brain must have been twisted upside down and inside out. I WAS my mother’s nasty caricature for decades, how could I..or you..know anything else?
    If you are a fool, then I am one, too, maybe to a mega level. So I don’t go there.
    Still have questions about the root causes of CD behavior. I believe the X I made no distinction in his head about lie or truth, just whatever came out. Although his whole family (except dad, he had his own stuff, but I really liked him because he was real) are big time CDs. Does that make it genetic or Mom was raised by CD, then did what she knew how to do when she had her own, raised a cluster of ’em.
    Looking back, I know he said/did things because he enjoyed watching my pain. Other times, whatever popped in his head came out of his mouth. Yes, some lies were also about being controlling. I really do believe that there is some bad DNA with that crowd.
    On the attorney thing: mine had no concept, or interest, in verbal /emotional abuse. I knew X purposely had himself committed (what does that tell you?) as part of a bigger scheme to move to another state and avoid alimony. I didn’t know what he had said to the therapist until much later, he wanted to shoot my attorney. By this time, I had moved on to another attorney for something else, so I didn’t let first attorney know. I didn’t know if he would blow this off and I certainly was not going to get billed to find out. Did tell attorney #2, who did tell him, boy he really got freaked out! Now we are taking words seriously?? Amazing.

    1. Excuse me, is there something here that makes it easy to mix up names? Lulu, you’re actually refering to Joey’s posts.

      Odd, this is the third time I’ve been mistaken for someone else here.

      1. Joey, your mother sounds dangerous and criminally insane. If it is any comfort to you, it seems that the worse the mother, the more difficult it is for the child to leave. So, though you may heap scorn on yourself, nobody else is!

  20. Lisa, I forgot to mention that mommy narc doesn’t want me here because I make other people and pets in the house happy. She tries anything she can to make me stressed. I happened to be talking to sister-in-law narc and told her that I have to keep mouse in my curly hair or it gets frizzy. This morning I got out of the shower to find that the top had been broken of my mousse. How childish!! It kinda makes me laugh because she is playing a losing battle.

    1. Carrie, Your mother sounds CD and if she did that to your mousse she sounds like she might have a screw loose, too. Do you think she may be somehow jealous of you?

      Immature or highly insecure women can be terrible to other women who they perceive as better looking than themselves. A normal mother would have perspective on appearance, might be happy for her daughter that she is pretty but it wouldn’t be an issue.

      But your Mom sounds like she is no more than 13 years old, in terms of emotional maturity and having children doesn’t appear to have changed that. Women who are preoccupied with appearance and control come to see their maturing daughters as a competitive threat sometimes.

      Some women who are this twisted, even hold their young daughters liable if they are sexually molested by their own fathers, the husbands of the twisted women, or their step fathers. Ewww….yuk. double yuk.

      I love your typo ‘mouse,’ in your hair, instead of ‘mousse’. (I’m not sure if this is the right spelling either). It reminds me of a little pocket pet love bird I used to have who liked wandering through my hair. And last night I was reading about pet rats who crawl all over their people and like perching on their heads….so kind of coincidental. Sorry, I digress — just thought that was kind of ironic!

  21. My brother lived in a different state for 38 years and had virtually no contact with us. Not from our lack of trying. We’ve since learned;
    He identifies himself as an introvert but he is most assuredly non-empathetic and antisocial with that tell tale blank stare and is a vile covert emotional abuser when his ego is hurt.
    The only reason I found out his true nature is because his marriage failed and he was removed from his home by police and put into rehab. Because my parents worried about him we offered him a new place to start over again, we had something to give so this was the ONLY reason he reconnected with us. The first statement out of his mouth upon arrival was “I decided to call your bluff and take you up on your offer”. To us it meant we had to prove that we wanted him. It was an awkward moment.

    We provided him privacy, shelter, food, transportation to AA meetings and job interviews and so on and so on. He sort of kept it together for about a month and then things started to come to the surface more frequently. I consider myself to be very intuitive and right from the beginning I noticed lies, especially since he took no responsibility for where he ended up. He had no marriage, never any friends, he was estranged from his only child, no work history of any substance or longevity, recovering from alcoholism, but none of this was his fault. His reasoning was the red flag. He lived in the marital home basement for 2 years without working, he was born an alcoholic, it was his wife’s fault that he couldn’t loose weight and the whopper was when he blamed my parents for his getting married to his wife in the first place…OMG! This conversation was the DAY AFTER we picked him up from the airport.

    I had to spend 10 days in my home alone with this man. My mother had told me years ago when he lived at home that she didn’t like it when my father travelled. Oh boy. My CD sibling became sullen and dark to the point where I didn’t want to go home. I locked my bedroom door at night and when I went to bed he would creep up and forage in the fridge. There were stretches where he would stay in the dark in the basement for up to 10 hours with no bathroom break until I went to bed. I contacted friends who advised me to get the hell out of here. So I confronted him.
    You’d think I’d lit a fire under his ass. He made arrangements to move out very quickly and it was my confronting him that was the catalyst. He fled but not before blaming it all on me. He covertly turned to another sibling whom the CD considered his “hero”. The hero sibling who was made aware of what happened in our home chose to take his younger brother under his wing and bring him into his family because “it didn’t happen to them”. The CD brother didn’t live with them but he was invited into their lives often. We were not.
    On the rare occasion we were all at the same gathering I could hardly contain my contempt because I would witness my CD sibling use his superficial charm on everyone. Three years later at a family gathering he let his mask down and his hero family witnessed something they didn’t like, it was the final straw for me.
    I have one steadfast rule and it is this. If I’m disrespected and no apology or explanation is forthcoming I will have nothing to do with the person who disrespected me.
    We were at this gathering to appease the hero brother, his wife and family and to celebrate the reunion of the CD and his estranged daughter.

    I confronted the CD by letter, not because I expected an apology or an explanation but to clearly state the consequences of his behaviour and it was to cut him out of our lives forever. Holy shite batman my phone exploded!!! I’ve never responded to him once. The heroes wife confronted him too and he said “it was a joke”. He has gone into hiding from them as well. Our ailing 88 year old mother is wondering where he is. The CD phoned her and told her he was depressed and becomes anxious thinking about visiting her. Nice son eh? He doesn’t answer the SILs texts or respond to invitations by her and I’ve asked where her boundaries are when afterall he betrayed her trust. She is a born again Christian she explained and therefore she must reach out to him. We are so out of this situation. I am down one brother and I have not one moment of regret. He now has written proof my husband and I know who he is. The lying doesn’t seem to alter the allegiance the hero brother, wife and family have for him. They said he only needs to apologize. So much voracious lying and manipulation has left my head spinning but because I recently found this forum it has helped to know I’m not alone.

    1. Hi Sydney, Enclosed I have sent you an attachment to give to your SIL who thinks she can save his soul. Emphasize the last part where it says STAY AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE. This article has helped me explain this dysfunction to one very special person who doubted me at first. I have found a pastor that fits this description also. That was very scary!!
      I know these individuals can be very scary. They can turn into monsters and get physical also. Be sure to protect yourself. It is a shame that people can have such low self-esteem that they start trying to suck the soul out of others I have dealt with many narcissists and a few hardcore (very violent) psychopaths. I was married to a psychopath so I know the devastation that these demons can cause. Dr. Simon’ books are fantastic and also I have read WITHOUT CONSCIENCE by Robert Hare. I have had the misfortune of have these deceitful, manipulative individuals in my life since day one and I will always remember the day that my friend put a name on these monsters for me. Everything got so much more clear and life became so much easier. The DC love to make it seem like you’re the crazy one. I even know a psycho that brags that she drove a woman to commit suicide. The dysfunctional love to feed on the innocence of children, elderly, and even pets. I am sorry to hear that he is treating your mother like that.

      Always watch your back!! Take care.

      1. Carrie I can’t find the attachment you mentioned?   My story is actually becoming old and boring in my head, on the other hand I find his personality disorder fascinating and so I enjoy reading about it and I enjoy reading forums like this. My CD brother would never come near me because he’s a coward and my husband is intimidating in appearance, but I understand your warning about watching my back  I still don’t understand why there are so many people in his corner, always standing by and wondering how he’s doing, trying to figure out how to help him.  I struggle with brief bouts of compassion towards him and it surprises me but I tamp it down with great success when I remember who he really is.   I came home yesterday to two of Dr.Simon’s books and I dove right into his first one. 

        1. Sydney, At the top of this post is a paperclip and you just need to push it and that is the attachment. It is a copy of 2 Timothy 3. It’s rather scary and it might explain to some extent why there are so many of these individuals. There is many reasons actually and some of them are not obvious to the human mind, I am sure. The breakdown of the family unit is probably a big one. Psychology and medicine have also proven that the mind of a narcissist is formed differently. I think it is quite the enigma that has many different pieces involved. The books will give you more insight..
          Well, I can understand that at times you might want to help him. It is human nature to want to help each other. It is also important to remember that when you give him an inch he will take a mile. LOL…. He will take every opportunity to use it for a chance to manipulate you. The rule of ‘no contact’ is best. The average person can not even attempt to understand the methods these people from the dark side use. Knowledge is the best way to understand what is going on because the more they confuse others then the more they can feed on souls. This is what the predators need since they are trying to feel better about themselves by sucking the goodness out of others. It is really amazing when you discover how many parasites there are. Even some of the people that I grew up with and were my best friends have gone sour on me!
          Earlier you mentioned his flaky personality and insincere actions. I have a malignant mommy narc who is the queen of manipulation. She goes to get bread for the community center to help the less fortunate and she even has a rescue dog to cover up her evil ways. The funny part is that everyone falls for her ploys. The people are sheep who can’t think for themselves. She tells everyone lies about me and they are ready to believe it. I just laugh at these people because they are sad individuals who are ready to participate in any kind of drama. She is just helping me find out who is my friend. I don’t have many who are genuine and that is really not my problem. I have a whole family of narcissists and psychopaths. Quite a group!!

          1. I am sorry. It is 2 Timothy 3 and it talks about in the end times how people are going to be lovers of themselves and the best way to deal with these people is to stay away from them.

  22. Many years ago I was married at the young age of 18, there were no children but there was definitely coercion and manipulation on my exes part and I was also given an ultimatum. The marriage happened 39 years ago. I just read In Sheep’s Clothing about who he really was, he was a CD covert agressor!! We separated and my ex saw a therapist to see if he could help his behavior. The therapist requested I make an appointment with him privately. This was in the 70s and I thought going into that appointment this therapist was going to advise me on how to compromise. The therapist said to me”you are young, you appear to be reasonably intelligent and you have your whole life ahead of you, don’t walk, RUN from this man”. The therapist offered reasons and I heeded his advice. Our marriage lasted 1.5 years and the first three days were o.k. but it went downhill after that. Because of my experience with this man I think I gained a level of awareness and in turn it gave me an insight and a wariness when I began dating again. However, this awareness did not make me a softer person. My parents moved away when I was 19 and so my brother was raised almost like an only child. We reconnected but almost as strangers when he was 48. Because of my ex I was fundamentally ready to take on my brother I just didn’t know it.

    When I finished In Sheep’s Clothing I looked at my husband of 32 easy years and said “we got off lucky”. I went on to explain, since I never had the emotional investment or an attachment with my CD brother in the first place even when we were children I had almost zero tolerance for his behavior. I am convinced this saved us from being sucked in and expending energy trying to help him.
    Me, my husband and our daughter are hardcore when it comes to setting boundaries with him and since he couldn’t stay within them we were done.

    Even though I got rid of him I still find his traits fascinating and so this is why I’m on this forum.

    I enjoyed reading about covert aggressors and it depicts my brother to a tee. My question is this; he is very much a loner and I do mean a loner. He seems to be capable of keeping charm and a superficial demeanor together for only a short time and then he retreats, he stays by himself for long periods and almost ignores all contact with the few people who care about his welfare. He has zero friends. Is this typical?

    1. Hi Sydney, I am glad you are on this sight and enjoy it. I really love the way the mind works and finding out about the dysfunction that I have dealt with my whole life and I REALLY like the fact that my input helps people. I just really want to warn the whole world about these demented individuals but people seem to think that I am just gossiping. I am trying to save them a lot of pain but since this all seems like something from a horror movie and not really real they have a tendency to question things. I am sure that the narcissists have already gone through with their smear campaign so people find it hard to believe me.
      I am glad that you got out of your marriage with the covert aggressor. They can do so much harm in a short amount of time. A covert aggressor sounds like a covert narcissist or psychopath. I’m sorry I haven’t gotten the chance to read Dr.Simon’s books yet. I have dealt with lots of covert narcissist and I was married to a hardcore psychopath. I have to applauded your family’s ability to set strong boundaries with your brother. They hate boundaries!!
      I grew up with a covert narcissist. She has always loved to put on the flaky front all the time. She even goes to get the day old bread in the next town and gives it to the food bank for the less fortunate. People just suck that right up and think she is a great person. Actually she is a very sad, lonely, and insecure person. She uses a lot of people but as for having friends I don’t see any. I had a couple of covert narcissists as roommates and they were the same way. My hardcore psycho ex husband was addicted to many things. A really big one was porn. I’m afraid to even think about the kind he was looking at. He even got a deal at a computer store to have them swipe the hard drive and get the viruses from the sights off for an unlimited number of times for a year. I think porn is a really big addiction for them so maybe that is what your brother does.

      1. Carrie we think he is looking at porn too. I think he does get lonely and he did try online dating met a woman and according to him he broke up with her because he couldn’t give her what she wanted. This was awhile ago and I hope it was her that saw what he was.

        1. Yes, I hope she did see through him too! My ex psycho went through a couple of women who only went on a couple of dates and then kicked him to the curb. I was so glad to hear that. There was no way that I would know except we have a son together. Unfortunately he got his hooks into one of the sweetest women I have ever met. She’s from a different country (here on a work visa), very sweet and innocent, her first husband was an abuser so she is in an abusive cycle, and she doesn’t have a house and she lives with him. She probably thinks that she has no other choice than to deal with him. He is one of the devil’s favorite demons, I am sure. I feel so bad for the woman. I am not in the same state as she is but I can feel a connection with her. I am trying to do whatever I can to gain her trust and help her get out. If nothing else I know that she needs a friend.
          These DC lack the ability to show any empathy and can not love. That is the biggest reason they are loners. They like to refer to themselves as introverts but that is far from the truth. They have to find a soul to feed on so they can feel anything close to true happiness. They really love to use children or pets.

          1. “These DC lack the ability to show any empathy and can not love. That is the biggest reason they are loners. They like to refer to themselves as introverts but that is far from the truth. They have to find a soul to feed on so they can feel anything close to true happiness. They really love to use children or pets.”  These statements describe my ex-brother to perfection.

          2. Ya, I have dealt with around 20 or more. They can’t make friends but acquire victims! It is kinda funny that two narcs don’t usually hang out together unless they are working on an evil plan together. It’s really funny when one whacko thinks that the other whacko is getting a better shake because then they turn and feed on each other.

          3. I  forgot to mention that the counselor that told you that you should get out was being so wonderful. When I was married to the psycho I was pretty brainwashed. I went to many counselors to try to break the spell that the psycho had over me. I can remember telling one counselor that I didn’t think it would be right for me to leave him since he had a bad childhood and he needed my help. The counselor got very stern and told me that a lot of people had bad childhoods but they did not act like him. He told me that I needed to tell the DC that he needed to get help or get out. Well, I told the psycho that he needed to get help or pack his stuff and get out. The counselor set up the appointment with the psycho and got him in there. The counselor told him exactly how things were. The narcissist did not get complete adoration and justification from the therapist so he didn’t come home all day. Long story short I wish I would have kicked him out but he sucked me right back into being his victim. I was with him for four long years. I had been the victim of narcissist abuse from day one and so it all seemed quite normal to me. Finally I had enough and my kids had a giant case of PTSD. I had the locks on the doors changed when he was at work. I still went to counseling after the DC was gone. I still wake up shaking from nightmares but things are getting better little by little. It has been over 5 years since the divorce from the idiot. You should applaud yourself for getting out after a year and a half.

    2. Sydney, they do appear to have no real friends. My ex didn’t, oh he has the charm and can keep that going, he had work mates that he was friendly with to a point. Though that all came crashing down after we split so now he’s made all new aquaintances and moved to a new place. He had no old friends from childhood and all that knew him when teenager or young adult dropped him because he risked their lives through dangerous driving and other things. He is a momentary best friend. He doesn’t really feel but he mirrors, puts the charm on and but the cruelty is there beneath the surface. You had a good therapist to advise you to run and stay away.

      1. Tori & Carrie,
        I consider myself very very lucky now. It’s been a long time over and I’ve been in my present marriage for 32 years to a man who is polar opposite to what I had before.

        As far as my ex-brother goes it is a mystery as to how this man can be so alone all of the time. His estranged wife said he never had work friends or casual friends and he never visited her family EVER. I think he has to be very lonely and angry. What holds this DC from returning texts to the only person who is reaching out to him…and that is his SIL? If he doesn’t he will be alone for the rest of his life. I’m so curious about this.

  23. I dated a girl that was raised in a horrible living situation. I suspect she has borderline personality disorder. To her,lying was something that you do simply to survive. I think she thought it normal and that everyone else was doing the same thing. Also, she thought that so long as someone does not have hard and fast proof of a lie or betrayal, then everyone is simply to believe everything, even if it is just “wrong” or makes no sense.

    What she did was say whatever seemed the most useful to her at the time to accomplish a goal or maintain a positive perception of her. So, over time, things she said just naturally clashed and my BS detector was always going off. I don’t think she had any idea that other people can sense if someone is just continually at least slightly untruthful and that other people judge that and do not want to be around it. She had very few friends that she communicated with regularly and in person. Of course, this was not her fault in her mind, she was the victim or misunderstood.

    It is sad that her upbringing created a person desperate for attachment but afraid of it and unable to maintain it.

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