Surviving A Manipulator and Restoring Your Sanity

Restoring your sanity after a manipulator’s gaslighting takes knowledge. It also takes courage. (See also: Gaslighting Victims Question Their Sanity.) You first have to learn how covert-aggressors operate. Then you have to stand up to their tactics. All this takes time and mindful practice. But once you get the hang of things, you can end the self-doubt. And you can stop questioning what’s real. Slowly, you begin to feel sane again. After all, it was never you; it was always them. And the fact they ever made you doubt attests to the power of the tactics.

The Heart of Crazy-Making

My first book In Sheep’s Clothing was born of a major insight. People do a lot of fighting in life. And some people fight in very surreptitious ways. The covert maneuvers they employ are effective. They throw others on the defensive while cloaking aggressive intent.  You might suspect something is up but end up doubting yourself. You might even question your sanity. To restore your sanity you have to trust your gut. And you have to see your manipulator for who they truly are. Once you recognize a dirty, underhanded fighter, and how they operate, things change.

A Case in Point

Let’s look at just one favorite tactic: rationalization. Traditional psychology taught that people do this unconsciously. And, supposedly, they do so to calm a troubled conscience. But covert-aggressors are skilled excuse makers. And they make excuses knowingly and purposefully. They know most people would find certain behaviors wrong. So, when you confront them, they know they’ve behaved badly.  And it’s not so much that they’re riddled with guilt they can’t bear. They don’t have enough conscience for that. Rather, they simply want their way. And they resist the obligation to do things differently. They’d rather you  see things their way. Once you do, they can continue doing as they please.

I once knew a man we’ll call “John.” He discovered his wife “Betty” had been texting inappropriately with another man. He called her on her behavior. She then offered two “justifications.” First, he hadn’t been paying her enough attention. Second, she’d only engaged in a “harmless flirtation.” John likes to be understanding. So he was tempted to accept this “explanation.” But he’s learned about Betty. She always has an excuse. Besides, she threw in a couple of other tactics. She minimized the seriousness of what she’d done. And she subtly blamed him (i.e. his inattentiveness) for her actions. If John had accepted her arguments, Betty would have successfully manipulated him.

A Different Life

John used to question his sanity a lot. He always felt something wasn’t quite right with Betty. But she always had an answer. And she could be quite convincing – even charming. So, he ended up questioning what was real and what wasn’t.  John doesn’t feel crazy anymore. He knows who Betty really is. And he knows how she operates. Now, he confronts her tactics. And he doesn’t allow himself to be swayed. He’s learned the secrets of personal empowerment.

Manipulators aren’t the only character-impaired people out there. That’s why I wrote Character Disturbance. And keeping your sanity in a character-deficient age can be quite the challenge. That’s why Dr. Armistead and I wrote How Did We End Up Here?

It’s worth looking at a few other tactics and how to best respond to them. We’ll do so in the coming weeks.

Character Matters

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239 thoughts on “Surviving A Manipulator and Restoring Your Sanity

  1. My son is going behind mine and my husbands back and trying to ruin our reputation because of some very hateful manipulative things he and his wife did a few years back at the time they got married.
    He turned on us and his brother each time he had a new girlfriend, (3) in all. He is basically trying to get everyone to think he is smarter and better than us. He claims he wants us in his life but does everything he can t hurt us.
    Our little grandchildren are now being dragged into this. We watch them several times a week. He and his wife are telling them things they shouldn’t and the kids have been somewhat withdrawn and confused.
    I know what they’re doing and the tactics they both are using. I’m left feeling depressed as I have come to not care about the supposed adults they’ve become. I love my grandkids but I’m not sure I should stay in this situation? Any advice?

    1. A few youtube channels on narcissism have videos on phrases to disarm toxic people. You can’t control what they say or to whom, but you can respond, NOT react with certain statements that diffuse their emotion-stirring statements and actions.

      1. Deb

        There is a huge difference in learning what to say and actually implementing a personal boundary. I can guarantee any learned “come back” will fall to pieces when the narc du jour hones straight in on their target’s pre-existing core wound (because the narcs know what they are and is how they manipulate others).

        CD who get close to us enough will data mine in order to know our blind spots just as those who already have know our MO. They use it to their distinct advantage. They know our insecurities and blind spots. They will assault us with things they know will hurt. If so then the person takes a direct hit (like a bullet) and this will result in the target being highly triggered into a stress reaction as opposed to a tempered response – meaning the target will launch into an ego defense mechanism which is out of their control and just what the narc wants. This will over ride reason each and every time.

        If somebody is out there telling us how to respond to narcs without offering an explanation of the mechanism involved and the dance steps of the toxic tango you could get yourself into a lot of trouble.

        It’s imperative in order to not bring narcs into our lives to – know as much as we can about them. AND most importantly know all there is to know about us and all our blind spots and seal those gaps or we will be sitting ducks for the next one.

      2. Thanks Deb, I went to some of those videos and listened to them. Being shot at by 3 narcs in my life right now. Doing what I need to do on social media to block them. I feel so sick as my life seems to be calling for a major change.

  2. Lydia, its really good you see whats going on, you are way ahead because of your awareness. It’s so hard when it involves the grandkids. You would probably know what to do if they were not involved and it was just your son and his wife. I don’t know if you have read Dr. Simon’s books, Wolf in sheeps clothing and Character Disturbance. If you haven’t I would start there. You don’t need to do anything in the immediate but educate yourself on their tactics and how to respond to them, I think you will be armed then and prepared to do whatever it is you decide to do.

    1. Hi Kat,
      Thank you for your response! I have read and re-read Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing as well as Character Disturbance. I go back to them all the time! I also got the book How Did we End Up Here? Haven’t yet read it. I also print out Dr. Simon’s Posts on his books and keep a stack of those handy as soon as I am being bombarded by the Narcississts in my life. I am completely outnumbered but am making headway with my other son and husband!!! If my grandchildren were not involved in this equation I would be literally moving away. No matter how I respond to my son or “help” them they are completely ungrateful and it sickens me. And now it is immediate, (the rudeness and mocking and disrespect). Any advice is welcome and then I will sort it out with God in prayer.

      1. Lydia, great comments here. No wonder you have the awareness of the tactics, having read the material. You probably have been trying to make it work to see the grandkids without suffering too much from your son. My EX narc husband worked on my son and daughter to turn them against me. He told them to lie to me and then rewarded them with treats. I would say my daughter and son have many tendencies but on the scale of narcs, they would be on the low end. I talk to my daughter on the phone quite a bit, but I know I don’t really matter to her except to meet her needs. I don’t have expectations of it anymore, and not with my son either. My son doesn’t try to turn people against me but my daughter has done some of that with some of her contacts, but not all. I deal with it but I realize I will never have the relationships I would love to have with either one. I don’t know how boundaries would work in your situation, as you cannot put a boundary around them turning people against you. That’s a hard one. Its easy to say go NC, and its probably all that you can do that will make a difference. It is grievous how they affect children, just very sad, and I am sure you know to lay that sorrow at the feet of Christ. As BTOV said, keep posting and affirming your choices with others who have been thru it too, it will ease your mind.

  3. Lydia

    Kat has given you top notch advice. The first step is to buy In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance. They are simply a MUST HAVE for anybody dealing with or picking up the pieces of their lives through narc abuse. Just remember your son does want you in his life on his terms and HIS TERMS ONLY. He will only get worse and the more you try to fight this the more damage will be done to you and your husband.

    It is absolutely neccesary to protect yourself at all costs. Narcs will stop at absolutely nothing in order to smear and besmirch you, undermine your credability and standing in the eyes of others and they will be 100% successful if you don’t get on top of this right now. So the sooner the better. They are natural adepts at creating false illusions and inviting us out of integrity. As soon as we need to fight to win and create decency – we’ve walked into a trap and this is when the real abuse will heat up.

    My daughter is one and she did incredible damage in many areas of her own life and to many others. She destroyed our entire family unit and a social circle – she enticed my best friend of 43 years to stand on her side and I ended that friendship 2 years ago permanently as it turned out she was one too. It didn’t become fully established until I bought a property with her and she turned into a domestic despot the moment we walked through the door. They will attempt to destroy us and everything we hold dear at every available opportunity if we do not play their game and this is by know means and exaggeration – it is sadly a FACT. My son and I are fully NC with my daughter and have been for 2 years. After I went NC with her she went after him and his fiancee and when the doc says they are without conscience – ARE THEY WHAT. She went after her own brother shortly after he was recovering from neuro surgery after having a tumor removed and several life threatening complications including a brain infection. They have no conscience Lydia – it’s really important to understand that.

    NC is the rule for preventing further damage. This is NO CONTACT in every sense of the word which means exactly that NO CONTACT. Zero. This is something I would discuss fully with your husband because it too can have consequences. But the more you allow your son into your life the more your expose yourself to toxic abuse. You need to arm yourself with as much information as you can. Knowledge is power and the more you understand about them the more empowered you will become.

    It is very important for you to seek knowledge and I mean in depth knowledge at this point in time and I would suggest you do this as a priority.

    1. Eudoxia, thank you for your response. I am doing what you’re saying except for the No Contact. You see I’m not making excuses but quite literally I have many siblings and all are married except 2. All have children and grandchildren. I have had nearly No Contact with them for the past 15 yrs. They are extreme narcississts who have used us lied to us defamed us in church and in social circles I started!!! Not to mention have stolen from us financially, socially as well as years of our sanity. Funny thing is as I succeeded in life it was they who did not and could not stand to be around me as I said no more to them.
      You are right about the no conscience whatsoever. My grandkids are 3 & 2 &6mos. I am a follower of Christ and it pains me to see what my kids are doing to these little ones not to mention us. I keep telling my husband the grandbabies are not our responsibility and God entrusted them to their parents. We’re worried about leaving them behind when we have such a close relationship with the little ones. They ask for us all the time even though my daughter in law only cares for her family. We’re in pain about this.

  4. Wow, rationalization, also is what my narc mother accuses me of. Backsliding, and God knows what else.

    Another case of “the pot and the kettle!”

    Anyone who makes you question your sanity would almost have a special place in hell.

    But if I can forgive that, and it took me a long time, God forgives right away. And she,does have religion, better than nothing and God willing, she’ll be forgiven immediately. I said a prayer to forgive her, my father, and myself for past wrongs. It’s simple: “Today, I choose to forgive.”

    Since narcs can’t grasp the spiritual side, today, I ask God to also have forgiveness.

    I used to say, a narc will teach you hate, fear, and all things are conditional on their narcissistic supply.

    They can teach you about forgiveness

  5. Dear George, thank you for posting on the net. People need to be aware how creeps work. i am looking forward to ordering a hard copy of “Character Disturbance,” and when i have read, i’ll put it on the fellowship table at church. i am aware that abused people – especially in the church-house – don’t know they’re being targeted by creeps. And most preachers aren’t doing jack to help, they just tell the abused to not only forgive (which is Biblical) but to go on as if nothing happened (and that isn’t Biblical – it’s not like Jesus ran after the pharisees). Anyway, thanks again. i’m off to Amazon-land 😉

    1. I can’t tell you how many Narcs in my life have USED the “you just need to learn how to forgive” card on me!!! I study God’s Word so much and listen to honest God fearing preachers I include Dr. Simon as one of those men that I literally laugh when I explain to them in the past all about what forgiveness means and what it doesn’t. Usually their anger turns to rage at that point as they realize I’m not budging and GIVING them anything more!!! Be careful though to share these books with the public/church. Finding people who are suffering from Narcs and sharing with them is maybe better?

      1. Lydia,

        I read your post and the responses from both Kat and Eudox who gave you good advice. You are indeed in an ugly situation which you don’t have much control over. You can go no contact and I myself would be tempted to do as Eudox suggested for the reasons of how it can affect you in the long run.

        No matter in the end it will always be a battle and a tear down at your person on a physical, mental and physical plane from the CD. The CD will lie, cheat, steal anything to discredit you and it will be ongoing turmoil and crazy making. All the dirt they are will be turned on you.

        I have grandchildren too, it is always about her family and I am only good monetary support and gift giving. In the end, I am a flushable scapegoat and the children are brainwashed in this regard. I have learned the hard way and peace for me is basically NC. I left the door open if they would like to include me, however, the door is closed unless I am giving.

        It is a sad reality to accept, I know that strangers are more accepting and kind. Yes, they practice Christianity, so they say. Whose form of Christianity????? I think this is clear in the word, again you will know them by their fruit.

        Forgiveness, the act of forgiving is a double reward. In the act of forgiving them that trespass, we gain freedom, we no longer carry hurt, anger, all those negative feelings, we give them to God to deal with and thus we are free of the negativity.

        This DOES NOT mean we go back and let those who we have forgiven trample us, treat us badly and so on. In fact it is the opposite. We know who and what they are, and stay away from them. We take away the ability for the CD to do further harm, the forgiveness frees us to live a positive life free of someone else negativity.

        It is like being bit by a snake, we know that is what the snake does, we never forget they will bite us again.

        I welcome you to the blog and encourage you to keep posting, read the archives of the blog and read Dr. Simons books. Dr. also has a radio program on Sunday nights and has many You Tubes. I encourage you to educate yourself as much as possible on this topic.

        I totally agree with you in using judgement in whom you give these books to. I know in the early part of my education I willingly shared to much information with those very CD individuals who used the knowledge to be even more covert in their tactics.

        Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

      2. Lydia,

        My narc mother sees nothing wrong with what she does. In her mind, there is nothing to forgive on my end.

        I simply did so to set myself free from her hold over me-belive it, I am 43, and she really belives that if she says I am not to get myself a cat, then I definitely cannot have a cat-and she lives several states away.

        Anger at being treated like an incompetent when I am educated?

        She’s done this for so long, I can’t remember when she did not share my life for me (and at the same time when doing so, I am supposed to have been telling her “EVERYTHING?” Definition of insanity, IMO.

        It is hard to not be angry when I am treated like an incompetent, been told I am incompetent for making a bad choice, that I should not bother trying to work, and “maybe just volunteer.” (I will be doing both).

        The only way I know of to really unlock any of my own potential is to forgive-I did not say that it’s required, but is it effective pain management, yes. For me, at least.

        And by anyone’s standards in my own life, I had every right to cut her off, to do a lot of things. I also have to have compassion for what created this in her, but now, I just can’t be angry anymore, it will put me in an earlier grave, and I already have a life limiting illness (gastroparesis). Not going o hold onto anger-since my gut is the first place I feel it. With the GI stuff, nerve pain, is harder still to treat-some help by addressing the cause (autoimmne along with TN).

        This is only what has helped me, I wouldn’t tell you anything about your situation, on that, I am not qualified.

        1. The translation is my narc mother taught me to act like the one person any narc loves best.

          Now, I unlearn all of it-thus also the reason I have for volunteering, making my life to be about other people.

          And the life insurance I am supposed to get-for an executor to manage it for me “because of her mental problems.”

          One last narc stab. And I cannot accept the money. Forgive, yes, forget being treated like that, I guess that is my own shortcoming. And I will hang onto it-it is called self-respect.

  6. JC, Sue, Kat, Sydney and others,

    Rationalize = Rational Lies by: Vera a past poster

    JC, there is a big difference between being religious and truly having the Spirit. Jesus threw the money changer Pharisees out of the temple. Jesus also said to the prostitute: “Go and sin no more.”

    Timothy warns us of people who profess Christianity or Religion. One must remember religion is man made versions and interpretations with all their ceremonies and doctrines. In the end it is what God says, not man.

    Also, remember CD individuals hide the best behind religion. You will know them by their

    Timothy 3:5 King James Version (KJV)
    “Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”

    If you read this entire chapter which I have posted before we are given further warning of whom we should trust and what we should do to protect ourselves.

    The world and others will put pressure on us to forgive and be acceptance of others that will harm us and go against the word of God. The sad part is the people who will and can harm us the most are the ones we love and want to trust, yes our very own family. The very people who are spiritual leaders, we want to trust. This is why God gives us discernment when we put our trust in him and know his word by studying it. The word will give us strength.

    The words of Jesus Christ:

    Matthew 7:16-20 King James Version (KJV)
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

    Jesus warns us and gives us words of wisdom on how to discern those who are liars and would harm us, steal our gifts of the Spirit and so on. Stay steadfast in the truth and it will set you free.

    JC, be open to this fact, know this, even though our own family and those we love most can tear us down however, the Lord provided brothers and sisters in Christ who will love us more than our family of origin. In this we are blessed, reach out, they are there. The ones who love me most are not related by family ties, they are brothers and sisters in the family of Christ.

    Hugs Sister and never lose or give your faith away. The CDNSP will lie cheat and steal to destroy your relationship with Christ. Know this, it was divine intervention you found Dr. Simons site.

  7. Sue,

    Welcome to Dr. Simons blog. You brought up a very important discussion. I would encourage you to keep posting. I would also encourage you to obtain in Dr. Simons first book: Wolves in Sheeps Clothing. It is an easy read and touches on many of the topics Dr. Simon writes about so eloquently, in simplicity.

    Again, I hope you continue to post and bring to light many of the problems you see in the churches. Hopefully, with education and bringing the darkness into the light we can make changes and help those who are confused with all the double speak and expose the ” Wolves in Sheeps Clothing.”

    We need more like you. Thank you for your post.

    Blessings in your mission and Gods Peace.

  8. Hi Lydia,

    Welcome. Why did your son turn on you every time he had a new girlfriend? What is the connection?

  9. Luckily, I have not been manipulated much in my life. Ignored? Check. Abused? Check. But I only had to suffer a true manipulating gas lighter once– and on a grand scale. And then one episode of nastiness with a ‘friend.’ I immediately terminated friendship and refused to listen or read her explanations, (or rationalizations). I made sure I had proof she was making things up and then that was IT! Finito!

    I count myself lucky. What a quagmire when others are drawn in through badmouthing.

    1. HI Lisa

      There is a beauty and an upside to smear campaigns because you soon see who your real friends are or aren’t. We will find out during a smear campaign who has our back and who doesn’t. Very quickly. This applies to friends and family where a good portion of their hidden character is revealed and once it is who wants or needs it – I certainly don’t and won’t entertain it in my life another second longer.

      Smear campaigns and gaslighting are two of the major debilitating factors in the abuse campaign overall. When it comes from your nearest and dearest even the more devastating. Like you I was exposed to intense and severe narc crazy making works in two separate circumstances but did not stay in either of those situations long.

      I had enough self respect to get out and see them as severely disordered people with deep insecurities who had to chop the heads of others to appear taller and I was not going to allow myself to be exposed to that any further. The only thing that allowed me to stay in either of those situations was due entirely to my own fault. I thought I could fix it and them – WRONGTOWN! Nope and to even try imperils us even further.

      Lesson learned!

  10. Eudoxia,

    You’ve done better than I would have under similar circumstances. My experiences were devastating but brief.

  11. Lisa – they are all devastating no matter how brief. I know this much – there won’t be another experience like that for me, not in this life nor beyond. While I must say I certainly did not enjoy the experiences – the rewards at the end are priceless :-

  12. Eudoc and LisaO,

    I have to agree with this. however, there are in many cases mitigating circumstances. In my case I had my Sis for years, my mother-in- law who had brain tumor, then dementia, my father whom I took care of for over a year before he died and my father-in-law who was like a father to me who died of cancer. There was not another person who stepped forward and seeing my X was an only child I was the daughter to the in laws.

    There have been others in my life who had no family to speak of that I cared for. I am not sorry I spent my time and resources helping these individuals, as it helped to form who I am. Now I am watching over my mother and if she is unable to care for herself, she will come and stay with me.

    I do not believe anyone should die alone, I have held many hands of those leaving this world. It is a painful and sad experience, at the same time rewarding to know you were there when no one else was and you made someone else’s passage less fearful because you were there. Some of the people I cared for were in fact CDN. The learning experiences turned out to be priceless knowledge which I rely on in helping others.

    I will concur, I will never let another Narc in my life again. My inner being is so in-tuned to them, I can feel them before they speak. I can feel their negative energy field conflict with mine. I am not speaking of individuals whom I disagree with, but individuals who are CDNSP. From all I have experienced it has sharpened a gift I had all along, now I put it to good use.

    For all the CDNSP that have come into my life, I have learned from them. I hold no anger or grudge, instead I have used all I have learned and turned it into a gift. They cannot hurt me, only if I let them. They hold no power over me, in fact when I meet up with one I have to bite my tongue they are so ridiculous. I have to say they want to get out of my way too, and I barely say a word. Their predatorial instincts let them know I am not prey.

    Agreed, the rewards are priceless.

    1. Btov,

      Finally I have the time and energy to respond here. They say what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger, I guess. And first hand experience is the best teacher. Still, I think I would have preferred reading a book about someone like the P who targeted me! LOL

      But there were some things I really HAD to learn first hand. As he targeted me online, I learned something so simple it should have been readily apparent. P’s in particular are so well camouflaged they can evade detection if we don’t remind ourselves of one simple thing. Everything they tell us about their real world lives can be a construct to trick us.

      The reasons are varied. But for an online manipulator, like psychopath who targeted me, the sheer enjoyment of pulling the wool over my eyes, disrupting my life and the lives of others, represented a win and also duping delight. The sheer thrill of chaos and being in control. ABW. Always be winning.

      The upside for me, Btov, was coming here and reading horror stories about family turmoil with malignant narcissists like those you’ve had to deal with. It made my family, who I was about to go ‘no contact’ with seem much more benign.

      And the more I read Dr. Simon, I realized that the description of malignant narcissist didn’t fit them any more than it fit me. This lifted a burden off of my shoulders. I realized they just aren’t as strong as I am, emotionally (as the black sheep often are!) and I had to be very low contact with a few of them but my feeling of a very loose family connection is still there. I also had to look at any narcissistic and avoidant traits I have — and work on them. You don’t come out of a family like mine and not have some damage to deal with! It’s not all about them. It’s me too.

      I also realized my father who was very abusive was likely not a malignant narcissist but probably pre-psychotic, neurotic, and selfish as heck. He was not intentionally cruel for kicks. This is a burden off of me too. He was more ‘mad’ than ‘bad,’. Not fun to grow up with but not as horrendous as ‘bad.’

      1. LisaO,

        Yes, I am told that all the time. Heck, yes, it can kill you. The statistics are not there to substantiate how many have taken their lives or gone insane from dealing with a Spath. I know it sure drains the life from one at times and take an enormous amount of endurance to recover.

        Thank you for sharing. If I may ask, it sounds like you met this fellow on line, can I ask what kind of forum? I am intrigued by these individuals and they are great chameleons and can be so illusive in their disguises.

        I just met one and pieced together what he was due to the nuances of the lie I picked up on.. Sad but we must grow feelers, antennae to pick up one them. The signals are so subtle, actually, it does drain one to have this (ability) I say gift to feel their presence, its in the eyes to.

        Yes, so true, its all about the game and winning. To destroy another is a delightful game, I would assume the ultimate adrenal and dopamine rush.

        Although benign, one must always be on guard in a positive way to protect oneself. One can become paranoid and this is not good. Paranoia will cause one to lose their objectivity that is so needed to combat and deal with these individuals.

        LisaO, I am glad you found your home here, we have know each other for a long time. I do understand about the work we need to do on ourselves. My start on this journey was at least 45 years ago when I went to Alanon for 3 years. Anyone can benefit from a 12 step program. It was a time where I learned we cannot control another but only ourselves and this was transforming for me.

        My father was all of what you described and more. When I cared for him when he died, which was difficult, turned out it was more for me than him. He could only see and accept so little, myself with and open mind, heart and soul, taught me compassion and love for mankind. It opened my up to being a more loving and giving person.

        Being and Empath is a blessing, a gift and at times a detriment to ones well-being. It makes all the difference when we know ourselves. Its a life long process as we learn we change or advance. I took care of my father-in-law who died of cancer. To watch someone being eaten alive is indeed a life moving, changing event.

        I am forever changed as a result of it. Ones heart is so filled with love and compassion, wanting to give a part of oneself and take on some of their pain. I will never forget his eyes full of fear. He did not believe in anything, though he was a good man. I tried as I may to give him my positive strength and I prayed for his soul without ceasing.

        I could go on and someday I will share more, as it was extremely tragic where the CDNSP came in for the kill and to scavenge like hyenas.

        All these events taught me the lesson in life Jesus taught and that is
        “To be our Brothers Keeper.”
        “To do unto others as you would have done to you.”
        These were the treasures I brought from these experiences.
        Truly, one can turn a tragedy into a blessing.

        Thank you for the dialog, I don’t think I have shared much of this and there are so many life lessons in these tragic life experiences.

        Please forgive me as I have forgotten much of what your story with the P was. I could look back in the archives.

  13. I am being severely gaslighted by my 31 year old daughter. Our very rocky relationship began about 10 years ago and recently has morphed into a nightmare. She went no contact with me although we have corresponded a bit by mail. The bottom line is that she refuses to go to family counseling with me and also won’t apologize for her disrespectful behavior. Her most recent rationalization for not seeking counseling with me is that her counselor believes I have a personality disorder (I have not met with this counselor) and that family counseling won’t be effective until I receive specialized treatment, and only until I make significant progress in my therapy will she “grant” me access to her and her family. My daughter challenged me to have the courage to ask household family members if I needed counseling and if even ONE of them agreed that I should do so. I went above and beyond that challenge and asked my 27 y.o. and a sister that has been professionally trained in dealing with BPD clients and not one of them believe I need counseling of any sort. I don’t have relationship problems with any others in my life except this daughter and my oldest sister whom I believe has NPD.

    My daughter also attempted to clandestinely arrange a family counseling session with myself, my other 3 daughters, 27, 17, 15, and my husband of 18 years in what appears to be a strategy of convincing me I’m the one with the problem. Fortunately, my 27 year old said no and my 17 year old said she thought it was a terrible idea. (My 27 y.o. confided this information to me.) When I told my husband about this attempt, he said that no way would he have participated.

    I have told my daughter that I will not engage with her unless and until she agrees and goes to counseling with me.


    1. Michelle,
      I’m sorry for your loss because this is exactly what it is … a lost cause, your daughter has set you up to fail and doubt yourself. I would not ever entertain the notion to seek counselling tandemly with a narc. Your 31 year old daughter has done so much damage and she will further erode your sense of self if she convinces you to seek out the advice of a professional.

      You are blessed with the support of your husband and other children, this in itself is a wonderful thing to have been validated by them. In my opinion going NC or LC is the best option.

      1. Thank you Sydney, your words are very supportive. It is sad that I am being set up to fail and that’s how I see it as well. I am trying to come to terms of this loss, especially knowing I have a new granddaughter that turns one next month and who may never know me.

        1. Michelle,

          Sydney is right, it is sad but true. I had similar situations where my grandchildren were dangled before me by a CD daughter in law. When I wasn’t serving her useful purpose of giving I was on the dirt list. She also did a lot of intentional bad mouthing. It was always about her family and I was last on the list unless it was gift giving and money. Sad to say I I was allowed limited visitation and never got to bond with my grandchildren either.

          It is sad when one poisons another mind against another, especially when it is helpless children the CD are molding.

          I found it best to keep my distance and at this point NC. Unless there is a great change of heart in the CD, it will be the same old thing over and over again. The tapes never change. I truly am sorry you have to go through this.

          1. Michelle,
            I am also going through exactly what you describe except I am caring for my grandkids 1-2 days per week. The oldest is under 4 and is being turned against me. About 2 months ago she started saying “this is my family” “this is my house”. My daughter in law is all about her family and they are broken too. Very CD folks. My son and her bad mouth us all the time. You may think it’s terrible to never know your grandkids, but it’s even harder to watch them go from innocent to manipulated. My grandchild constantly tries to invent ways to stay at our house when he thinks its time to go home. I said are you afraid to go home? The answer was “yes I AM” grandma!!! Then clung to me and buried the face into my arm. It hurts to see them become manipulative to hide from their parents. I can’t tell you all the hateful things my son has said to me in regards to caring for them. From napping, to watching movies together to what they eat and drink, to how much??? Funny thing is when I ask them would you rather have someone else care for them? Answer is always NO??? In fact I’m caring for them as sitters have constantly failed them in SOME way too.
            I take heart in this though, Our Father created them and He will also care for them!!! I was abused and singled out as a child and my siblings still to this day single me out. 4 of them call themselves Christians and then mock me EVEN for my faith!!! I have high bp now as a result of the tremendous stress my whole family has put me thru. So I’m literally willing to let my grandkids go into the hands of God Almighty! I believe someday He will restore them to me!

          2. So nasty, Btov, using grandchildren on you as part of a reward system. Yuk. Seriously. How creepy is that?

    2. Michelle

      Sorry to hear you are in this predicament it’s what brings us all here. Don’t expect an apology from her any time too soon it won’t be forthcoming.

      I have a daughter in her late 30’s who attempted similar. I and my son are NC with her. She successfully managed to destroy the family unit due to her successful recruitment of certain flying monkeys. All of whom she promptly discarded after she failed in an attempted similar gaslighting antic with me and them to back her up. That led to me going NC with the lot of them and I still am today.

      “Her most recent rationalization for not seeking counseling with me is that her counselor believes I have a personality disorder (I have not met with this counselor) and that family counseling won’t be effective until I receive specialized treatment, and only until I make significant progress in my therapy will she “grant” me access to her and her family”

      That is nothing short of a typical statement a narc would make. No counselor can make a diagnosis of another based on another’s story without consulting the accused for a diagnosis period. This is malpractice – it’s diagnosis based on hearsay, doesn’t fly and I doubt any councelor would suggest it anyway it’s a bit too loose. On that basis it would be safe to assume she’s lying. This is one thing narcs excel at. I can’t say whether your daughter is or isn’t – only you can make a determination based on the level of malevolence demonstrated.

      NPD are callous and malicious and they will stop at nothing to get what they want – NOTHING. Some people can simply present with narc traits and attributes without being full blown NPD but there is a significant difference. The docs books are brilliant for this and are an absolute must have if you suspect your daughter is one. Also going to counceling with your daughter is a seriously bad idea because she will deliberately invite you out of integrity – if she’s CD you can count on it and she’ll nail you to a wall. I have signed onto a narc abuse recovery program that has been priceless and I will leave a link at the bottom of this post because it can help you here. But only if you are prepared to use radical personal responsibility because it is exactly what it entails.

      You appear to be right in the thick of it and she appears to be lining you up for the “take down” (it’s what happened in my case) so I would suggest you need to protect yourself first and foremost. From what you have said it appears she is attempting to subjugate you which is exactly what my daughter tried unsuccessfully to do to me for 10 years. Her failure at this turned to rage and her rage turned to wanting to totally destroy me and all things I hold dear including her own grandmother. And this is a tragic consequence of this disorder. At their core they envy us for being who we are. However they project all their undesirable traits onto us which is why they constantly accuse us of the very behaviors they are guilty of. Anytime she is doing this to you consider it a confession via projection.

      It’s important to remember one very important fact here. We have absolutely NO CONTROL over what another person does or does not do. NONE ZIP. The only person we have control over is ourselves. How we conduct ourselves during these campaigns is paramount. Unfortunately hardly any of us get to this stage during the abuse. We generally don’t find out until much later and the damage has been done and in most cases extreme unrecoverable and irreversible damage.

      We find out later how we were invited out of integrity by them in order to defend ourselves time and time again – and if we step up to this fight they’ll take us out. I fortunately did not step up to that plate and went NC instead. They are absolute masters of this strategy. They are outrageous beyond measure, they accuse us of the very behaviors they are guilty of and slime us with all of their nasty attributes while painting themselves as Saints with the highest of moral integrity.

      “Whenever we try to work out someone else’s behaviour we seriously lose a handle on our own. Your life has only ever been ‘controlled’ by aligning with your inner peace, self-choices and foundation. Come to this place without maintaining any vigilance ‘what is he or she up to’ and see how quickly your life starts getting better and going right.”………………..Author unknown

      I can personally attest to it’s accuracy though. I would suggest you step well away from her and let her be who she wants to be without suggesting she do anything at all. I would suggest you not try to control her or attempt counter ultimatums because you will be playing the game and it’s just what she wants you to do – you will be playing right into her hands and if you do you will be allowing yourself to be dragged down to her level. Don’t let anybody pull you down to their level. Providing of course she is CD? I hope for your sake she isn’t but at the age she’s at and she’s been like this for 10 years it’s looking unlikely. Trying to turn others against you, triangulation and gaslighting are pretty sure signs of CD behavior. A real diagnosis should be made unfortunately that’s also unlikely.

      The only thing we can do is put all our attention onto ourselves and know yourself through and through, find all the blind spots within your own psyche that allows her to hook into you and hurt you because she knows what they are – they have an uncanny instinct for sniffing these out and it’s called cold empathy. This is not the same as normal empathy it is inverted meaning it is not used to support others but exploit others.

      Knowing yourself and knowing and rectifying your blind spots is your absolute best defense and the only way to preserve your own sanity because right now you sound like you are right in the “thick” of it. This is where life becomes an each way bet – it can improve or become significantly worse. We can either become victims of circumstance or conscious co-creators of life and that takes radical personal responsibility – the choice is ours.

      I’ve left a link below to the Narcissisitc Abuse Recovery Program – better to use it while you still have a family unit rather than after it’s been destroyed. Because CD don’t stop unless they are stopped by us dead in their tracks and that’s usually by going NC after the damage is done. This can help you seal up any blind spots you have and something to give serious consideration to with regard to your current situation and it’s resolution because you have the power to change the outcome at this point in time. It wasn’t an option for me at the time I was in “the thick of it” otherwise things I’m certain would have been completely different. I found it after the damage had been well and truly done. This is all about assuming radical personal responsibility and not too many people are prepared to do that but those who do benefit greatly.

      All the best Michelle

      1. Eudoxia, thank you for your very informative reply. What do you mean by radical personal responsibility?

        I don’t think my daughter is heartless and I believe she wants a relationship with me, it’s just that she hasn’t the courage and humility required to admit her errors and may not yet desire the relationship enough at this time to apologize. She had emailed her dad a few weeks ago knowing she had painted herself in a corner and was asking his advice about what to do. He replied that he didn’t know and said it was unfortunate because of the granddaughter and that we’re family – he and I are divorced and so he didn’t know the particulars at that time but I have since spoken with him and now he’s up to speed. I have remained in good standing with him so it was validating to me that he was trying to mend things rather than throw me under the bus like so many exes choose to do. She most likely decided to go for the throat and I got the therapy ultimatum instead, geez! Now she’s really stuck in that corner since I told her I wouldn’t jump through her hoops.

        I don’t intend on doing anything further, no baby birthday gift, no letters, no cards, no contact whatsoever. As far as I’m concerned, she’s lost a mother and a grandmother for her baby and honestly, I think it’s killing her inside.

        1. Hi Michelle,

          The fact you see some hope there is good – try to maintain that focus if possible. Radical personal responsibility is taking full responsibility for every situation we experience in life and the result of it’s outcome and regardless of outcome owning it nonetheless. Albeit we do not have control over others but we do have control over ourselves and this is the different between a victim of circumstance and a conscious co-creator of life.

          Taking full responsibility for ourselves is dealing with our own childhood wounding that allows us to show up for others in ways we are not conscious of. We do not understand how our behavior is being perceived by another human being. We are not in their shoes and do not know what is in their heart.

          Yes narcs project onto us and we, in our own unhealed states, are also projecting onto them as well. This is a bitter pill for some people to swallow but it’s true. We all have childhood wounding even if we had the most loving and benign parents – we have wounding nonetheless.

          This is because as young children we learned that love was conditional that we were loved conditionally leaving us with unconscious false beliefs we have about ourselves. These play out in ways that can be less than harmonious with us in life and with others. It impacts on our ability to give and receive love authentically. These unconscious beliefs can cause us to misconstrue others intent, motives and vice versa. They are also known as early childhood maladaptive schemas and has been well documented.

          Anybody who has studied psychology or behavioral science knows this well. People who can accept themselves and their faults and have decided to own these aspects of themselves can discuss childhood wounding and false beliefs they have about themselves without discomfort. However, in the case of CD and narcs if you try to raise childhood wounding which is the source of their attrocious and outrageous behavior – their defenses will come screaming up like a 10 foot electrified razor wire fence and we will be hit with a barrage of abuse like there is no tomorrow.

          Neuropaths can have a certain amount of general discomfort as everybody likes to think they are normal. Well sadly that is the normal human condition until we correct the false beliefs we have about ourselves we are all neuopathic. Unresolved childhood wounds is the core make up of neuropathic individuals in humanity.

          Nobody is exempt from childhood wounding otherwise known as programs/scrips/false beliefs and these are all held at a deeply unconscious level – it takes some work to get to them and this is what radical personal responsibility entails. It’s a healing process and is the only way we will evolve ourselves to a higher level and return to our true authentic self (before the wounds went in) – I and many others consider it imperative.

          This is a lifestyle choice and path to true self mastery and it does not appeal to everybody – in fact few. Most people want to sit back and blame others for their misfortunes in life. Radical personal responsibility is accepting ourselves as allowing, disallowing or creating our own experiences in life and what shows up for us for us at any given time in life is our own conscious or unconscious creation of it.

          This does not apply to childhood narcissitic abuse, as children we had no control over this whatsoever. As adults we most certainly do.

          I am convinced my daughter is CD, however, I am going over myself with a fine tooth comb seeking and finding every hidden unconscious program I have in order to try to correct this situation from within. As far as I am concerned if I created this situation I can uncreate it. That is radical personal responsibility.

          1. Thank you for your explanation, it’s what I thought but wasn’t sure.

            I have done a lot of radical personal responsibility already over the past 10-15 years and know where my weaknesses and vulnerabilities originate and am very cognizant of them. I have dealt with and healed from all my prior wounds and make no excuses if I screw up. I don’t blame others, I own my stuff and admit fault when I’m wrong. I am transparent and authentic with others and myself, honest, and I try not to even tell a white lie for fear that it will send me down the wrong path.

            That said, I’m imperfectly human and I’m not striving for perfection, just being better. My internal striving to be better is knowing that God is omnipresent and knows my heart and I can’t hide. I am accountable to Him for everything I think, say and do and living my life knowing this is very freeing.

          2. Sorry I can’t reply to you Michelle so hopefully this will go below your post.

            Glad to hear you have done some self work this will hold you in good stead and makes us much less manipulable. We don’t need to strive for perfection that’s something ego likes to make us think we do. All I can strive for is to be true to myself and be authentic in every way.

            It’s all a journey back to our authentic selves. Good luck!

        2. Michelle in my opinion you have strong boundaries and they will help you through this. I also liked the advice your mother gave about how we shouldn’t chase our children. So true.
          Please keep posting.

          1. Michelle, Sydney,

            I do agree with Sydney you have strong boundaries. I would like to add the key to change is humility, when we have humility we will ask, readily admit error and ask for forgiveness. I think this is what the content of what your mothers advise meant.

            Also, Dr. Simon says when one truly changes they will be contrite, to be truly contrite takes humility.

            Yes, please keep posting, you have added much to the conversation and to the blog.

        3. Michelle,

          If she still wants to have a relationship
          with you maybe going for counselling wouldn’t be such a bad idea. She may learn something from the counsellor. Maybe a different counsellor though!
          She may not be technically gas lighting you, just wants to open up dialogue in an impartial setting? I don’t know. I know I would have jumped at the chance to have counselling with my sister for a few sessions.

          1. Acch! Michelle,

            I got it backwards. Yes, yes! Keep trying to get her to see a counsellor with you!!

    3. Michele,
      This is the first time I’ve read this. Like I say, I fell behind. My thoughts . . . the daughter says the counselor thinks YOU need treatment. That right there sounds like a lie, because what counselor would diagnose a person whom he’d never met? For your daughter to try to reel in the whole family to state that you need the counseling is another attempt to attack your mental health and gaslight you, attempting to make you question your own sanity. You, on the other hand, have stood firm knowing yourself, knowing you’re fine, not allowing this daughter to make crazy your family dynamics. She’s trying her best to make you out to be disordered, when in fact she appears to have her own problems that need work.
      Believe in yourself. Counseling with her will be a waste of time and energy. Focus on the ones who deserve your care and attention. Hopefully through her own counseling she will heal and be able to participate in family that in a healthy way.

  14. Michelle,

    It seems your daughter is well educated in CD and therapy modalities, this is why I advocate not educating the CD. The worst CD are in the medical field who know the ropes and pull the exact treatment they need on another. It seems your daughter is trying to gain allies and engage them in what is called an intervention.

    If in fact it is she who has the CD personality I would cut off all ties. You may have to cut off the ties to the other family members who side with her and in all probability have CD problems themselves. It is a plus your husband and other members support you.

    It is a difficult and sad situation you are dealing with. Be careful of the triangulation that regularly keeps everyone in the loop of this crazy making behavior. It’s important not to feel guilt in any of this. Its sad when families are torn apart because of the CD person, however, it is important to build solid relationships of love, mutual respect and trust with the members who are not involved in the crazy making of the CD.

    Your family is one of many in this world of crazy making CDNSP, which I believe is of epidemic proportions in society today. I would encourage you to read the archives of the blog, obtain Dr. Simons books and read everything you can get your hands on. Throughout the blog many posters have posted resources and sites that provide excellent information. Also, Dr. Simon has several you tubes you may benefit from.

    I would encourage to keep posting as we have many seasoned posters here with experience whom I know will chime in. Knowledge is Power.

    Be well and God Bless

    1. Thank you so much for your reply. Interesting that you made reference to the medical field – she is an R.N. and I have read that CD’s are often attracted to nursing/medical as it fills their need for power over others.

      I am being very cautious of the triangulation and both my husband and myself have diplomatically discussed with them of being careful not to be swayed by my 31 y.o.’s negativity. Thankfully, my daughter doesn’t engage frequently with them so I’m cautiously optimistic that the younger ones won’t get sucked in. My 27 y.o. has been acting somewhat as an intermediary but has said she loves us both and doesn’t want to get in the middle of it. She has tried to get my daughter to go to counseling with me to no avail.

      I have read Dr. Simon’s last book “How did we end up here?” and it was helpful. I have also read nearly every blog of his to gain insight and understanding and recognize that there’s not a lot of hope so I’ve been praying a lot!

      1. Michelle,
        I agree with BTOV. Being that she is an RN she may have just enough knowledge to try to have power over you. Where the CD or Narc goes wrong is in doing so they are trying to label you. No sane person who cares for another tries to label their loved ones. They don’t tell them they think they are this or that. Sane loving people who care for others who want reconciliation after an offense talk about how they were hurt and how can we resolve it. This is evidence of caring. Many people think they know what care is. But I’ve seen it used as a four letter word to be wielded against others to inflict pain. It doesn’t have to be that way.

  15. Michelle,

    Your daughter may honestly believe you are personality disordered. If she is watching YouTube videos or reading material that encourages her to label those she is merely in disagreement with as narcissists, she could easily fall victim to the ‘spot the narc’ phenomenon.

    And if she sees a professional who reinforces this bias, she may be painting herself into a corner, but with a lot of help from those who are off on a tangent or who have a monetary interest in mislabeling.

    Anyway, maybe give yourself time to find out if these factors are in play and it might make it easier on everyone involved.

    1. Lisa

      I believe they do think it’s us who is personality disordered because they project their own nasties onto us. I’ve been standing there perfectly centered and not thrown off balance once while I have had a total tirade launched at me with this one accusing me of the very behavior she was standing there demonstrating right in front of me!

      They are freaking unbelievable. I also agree that the narc label is bantered around way too often. It took me a good while to ponder this one and after having studied Cluster B PDs to the tune of about 7k hours and going back on reflection with my daughter and former best friend. I am not holding out too much hope they are benign their behavior shows them to be totally otherwise.

      The entire school curiculum would have to be seriously altered in order to prevent narcissistic behaviors in youth growing up today – this culture as the doc has written about many times does not encourage self responsibility in any way – the Age of All About Me! …………………….

      1. True, Eudoxia. All I know is there are thousands of “experts” out there encouraging us to view everything through the lens of pathological narcissism. And truth be told, as the culture itself is so narcissistic, it’s easy for them.

        We can take for granted that we are ALL mildly narcissistic because of this environment. But…it doesn’t mean we are pathologically narcissistic.

        When we consult many of these self anointed oracles for answers about how to deal with narcissists, we are encouraged to become more self focussed, more rejecting of others, less kind.

        We are encouraged to shore up our own egos and keep the focus on ourselves — what we want, what we deserve, and on and on ad nauseum. Because, after all, we are the best of the best and any and all ‘bad’ is out there, not within.

        There is some utility here, post trauma, no doubt. But as a lifestyle choice the whole life coach, motivational speaker type approach to living asks those who have been victimized by CD, to become more CD themselves to deal with it.

        1. Lisa

          It depends on where a person is coming from and how motivated they are to reign in their own behaviors that have caused them grief in the past. This is what happened to me prior to found work of self work. I was a totally different person when ego fixated to who I am today. Didn’t stop narcs though.

          Life coaches and many are psychologists don’t advocate CD behavior. Nor do they advocate “pushing way” behavior. They advocate radical personal responsibility. Meaning utilizing self reflection and understanding how our behavior influences outcomes. With respect to narcs our behavior greatly impacts on the abuse itself. This is mainly due to porous boundaries. Much of it later in life is a result of our own lack of functional boundaries had we had in the first place the abuse would never have been tolerated.

          I can seriously look back now in particular with my own daughter and former best friend and can clearly see who the outcome would have been different had I known then what I know now. Life coaches and sure there are some dodgy ones out there. But the ones I listen to which is rarely these days anyway actually walk the talk.

          Being self responsible by utlizing self reflection is conscious living it is the exact opposite of ego fixated living (automatic behavior) which is unconscious living and there is a HUGE difference. It is being aware of our motivations and consequences before we act not acting on impulse and ending up with a shit storm of crap as a result.

          The core reason people are co-dependent or deeply insecure and have not only porous boundaries but some times non existent boundaries which is what totally allows prolonged narc abuse and this is what life coaches set out to correct – they are not producing or encouraging people to act narcissistically but the exact opposite. Becoming self aware and self responsible is something narcissists are incapable of but others are not.

          We are totally self responsible for how we conduct ourselves. Nobody else can make us do this or that – only we can. Nobody can make us say this or say that – only we can. It is only victims who wish to blame others for their own behavior. Victims of narcs are not responsible for the narcs behavior but how they react or respond to the narcs behavior is their choice and their sole responsibility.

          1. “This is what happened to me prior to found work of self work”. That sounds retarded – what I meant was.

            This is what happened to me prior to doing self work. To elaborate – getting on top of automatic ego driven behaviors that result in chaos, bad decisions and in many cases heart break, grief and regret. This is how we evolve though – by accepting our mistakes and learning these lessons through these experiences.

            But we won’t learn a damn thing unless we own up to our own behavior and how we all contributed to the outcome of any given situation.

          2. The problem is that narcs won’t own their behavior and shift the blame on us. Then they expect us to apologize for their bad behavior. I won’t chase but it’s so disappointing that it get so out of hand and complicated.

          3. Eudoxia,

            I would go one step further with the radical personal responsibility and question when I am unfair, when have I run roughshod over another. When have I been selfish and self serving, particularly with men? When have I been borderline borderline? I don’t remember, but those around me at the time, probably do.

            Am I sometimes too aggressive, overbearing, over-sharing, etc..etc..

            This isn’t directed at you. It’s my own journey. I have to take a good hard look at my own shadow.

            The problem with the self help gurus is there is way too much projection of the shadow and little reflection on when we have been lousy to others.

            Now when it comes to dealing with real menaces, sadistic psychopaths, deeply malignant narcissists, our own flaws aren’t relevant. They are a side issues. And for those situations, the gurus can be very helpful. I agree with you about that.

            I am referencing the tendency of people who have major flaws, particularly those ignorant of their own dark side, spending days on end watching YouTube videos that justify their desire to deflect all blame in failed relationships.

    2. Hi Lisa,

      Thanks for your reply. I think you may be correct, that she is listening to podcasts and videos, etc. Before she went N.C., she sent me a podcast about a woman with BPD…I listened to it and the woman had many of the same hobbies and interests as me to where even I wondered if it WAS me! The symptoms don’t match, though, ha! Anyhow, I think my daughter has erroneously assigned me as being Borderline after listening to that podcast. Very dangerous stuff out there.

      1. Michelle FYI

        DSM IVTR – Diagnostic Criteria for
        30183 Borderline Personality Disorder

        A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

        1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note Do not include suicidal or self mutilating behaviour covered in Criterion 5.
        2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterised by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
        3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self
        4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self damaging (e.g. spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating) Note: Do not include suicidal or self mutilating behaviour as covered in Criterion 5.
        5. recurrent suicidal behaviour, gestures, or threats, or self mutilating behaviour
        6. affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g. intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
        7. chronic feeling of emptiness
        8. inappropriate, intense, anger of difficulty controlling anger (e.g. frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
        9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

        That’s the DSM 4TR version not sure if this has substantially altered with the DSM 5 or not – the Diagnostic and Statistics Manual of Mental Disorders – the psychiatrists Bible issues by the APA – American Psychiatric Association.

        1. Ha ha!!! Thanks for posting this! None of the above criteria apply to me except sometimes I get angry and is usually justified as someone intentionally pushes my buttons, like my daughter. I try hard not to react but sometimes I do. One item out of nine, big whoop. Wow.

          1. Yea – exactly it’s good to know it not you who is the crazy one right from the beginning. Because if this stuff gets well and truly going the the smear campaigns start and they start inviting us out of integrity that’s when the crazy making starts.

            I hope for your sake Michelle your daughter is just going through an anti-parent stage and she’ll come to her senses. If she has a conscience and genuinely can show remorse that makes a difference and it distinguishes her from not being CD.

  16. Michelle,

    I am glad you have the fortitude and understanding to see things clearly. I think you just needed validation from an outside source. It is a sad situation our children act like this, the one that will be hurt the most is the child.

    I don’t recall you saying your daughter has a husband, perhaps with all the pressures from the others in your family not buckling to her unreasonable demands and manipulations she may have to adjust her behavior accordingly. I think you are wise to hold your ground and not give in. Your daughter may find she needs you more than you need her unhealthy behavior and she will decide to respect your presence.

    I have seen change, it can happen especially when other family members don’t allow the CD one to pressure them and giving into their antics. Lets pray she isn’t to far gone to repent.

    I respect your position to hold your ground and see the truth. Not knowing your daughter she may be rather prideful and arrogant like so many today. Many times the hard knocks that life deals us can knock one off their high horse to a place of humility. You can always let your daughter know the door is always open on your terms. That being to always treat you with dignity and respect.

    Prayer is powerful and I always keep my children in my prayers even though they choose the way of the world. You are in my prayers and you have given me some further insight to my problems I have with my children. You brought some good points and added a lot to this blog today, thank you for posting. I hope you keep posting, we learn a lot from each other.

    Blessings Kindred Spirit

    1. Hi BTOV,

      Thank you for your prayers, you will be in mine as well.

      Yes, my daughter is married and he is a nice man but extremely judgmental. I’m not sure what he may be saying to her about all of this and whether he’s my ally or foe, although he lost his mother about 6 years ago and misses her terribly so hopefully he is my ally but I really have no idea.

      I have to agree, it hurts the child the most. I remember my mother saying something to this effect decades ago and she always told my siblings and I never to chase our children, make them come to you. I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that statement. I also agree with letting her know my door is always open – on my terms.

      Thank you so much for all your kind words, support and wisdom. Today has been so very helpful and therapeutic for me!

      God Bless

  17. I only wish that I hadn’t been so poisoned against my father, who before AA, wasn’t much different than my mother. Before the 12 Steps, I know it was comments from him, “Did you call to pay homage on my birthday…” probably said to be funny, but the narcissism in such a comment, I will say since I told him the definition of homage (worship) I never hear that comment now.

    Is my father perfect, about as much of a saint as anyone. I’d like to have not spent so long believing what I was told, it also began in diapers.

    But now, I am grateful for what I do have, and my journey is far from finished.

    But that I now know even things about my father that I wasn’t aware of (And no, it was a bad deal too), if I can forgive my mother, then the rest is as simple.

    The prayer was, today I choose to forgive, and now, God, I need your help to change how I feel.

    I think God’s will be done is better pain management.

    My self will gets me in a world of hurt.

    1. JC, I agree, self focus always makes me miserable. I am not saying I don’t work on personal weaknesses, but rather being too tied up in myself instead of thinking of others. Sometimes its a step forward and a step back, but that’s ok, its the general direction looking towards God for His direction, wisdom and guidance that’s important.

  18. Hi Lydia,

    Sounds like a really ugly situation. Do you know for certain that your kids are badmouthing you? Your granddaughter referring to “her house” and “her family” is kind of typical for a little kid, regardless of circumstances.

    If you are asking a young child if they are afraid to go home and they say, “yes,” it doesn’t mean anything because it is a leading question. If it is something freely offered, it’s different.

    If they are napping too much at your place and then can’t sleep at night, that’s a problem. If they aren’t napping at all and become over tired and cranky– problem too!

    If you are giving them sweet treats, against their parents wishes, they might be all sugared out and hyper for their parents.

    And if you address their parent’s concerns by leveraging control of the situation, knowing how difficult it is to find alternative childcare, YOU are being manipulative — not them.

    I am playing devil’s advocate here based on a lack of detail. Whatever is going on, you have a poisoned relationship with your son and his wife.

  19. Hi JC, thank you for your reply. I agree forgiveness is the answer. Absolutely! But to have the narcs in my life try to tell me what I need to do is learn how to forgive is really just a slap in the face. I have opened the door to each person in my family to find out why they love to try to hurt me. Of course I don’t approach them like that. Each person has told me with either words or actions that they don’t have a problem with me. I then asked them, then why are you doing a b & c to me. To which I get the flippant answers such as you’re not the only one being treated badly. In Dr. George’s words… it doesn’t matter how you feel, what matters is how you react/behave towards others. My family has many problems, one being not getting what I’ve worked for in life. They have NEVER been proud of me or celebrated my accomplishments! The prevailing attitude is I have, they don’t so let’s keep hurting her like we always have. It’s sad, but these posts of everyone is really helping me to see I’m dealing with nasty human COMMON behaviorof badly disciplined people. Looking forward to heaven every day!!!

    1. Lydia,

      What do you mean not getting what you’ve worked for in life? Also, never been proud of or celebrated your accomplishments?

      Unfortunately, a lot of people are too self-absorbed to think of others. I know how I handle those situations – I ask for what I want. Sure, it would be great if everyone could read my mind but they can’t. For instance, attending family functions – I’ve told my husband that only if something is very important to me that I will ask him to attend, like a funeral, but not all funerals. I make a point to tell him it’s really important that he attend and he does.

      Another example is a milestone birthday of mine. I asked my husband for both a bouquet of flowers and a birthday card and told him that it was super important to me and I haven’t done anything like this before and although it may seem demanding on the surface, I know myself well and needed to express to him why it was important and he listened.

      If I want my husband’s affection, I don’t wait around for it, I just go give him a hug. It’s a win-win.

      I hosted my own college graduation party. I didn’t even stick around after graduation for pictures with family, I raced home to start the party! I earned my degree for myself, the recognition wasn’t necessary.

      Just a different way to look at things.

      1. Michelle,

        People with narcissism withhold: affection, recognition, smiles hugs, cards….on purpose. Lydia may be dealing with that. How would you handle it?

      2. Michelle,
        When I graduated high school I had finished with more credits than necessary. I had kept my baby when it was the norm for everyone to get an abortion. I didn’t know it but my siblings older than me had abortions in my family by this time.
        Some of my family attended my graduation, but never hung around to congratulate me after? When asked…no response? Meanwhile many of my teachers hugged and cried over me telling me how proud they were of me. I was so surprised so many of them cared. It still brings tears to my eyes, that my family was so cold in contrast.
        Upon completion of building our current home, I invited family over to have my first Christmas in 10 yrs!!! All said they would come!!! Held dinner for over an hour while calling the ones who did not show up. Only to be told by a family member that he didn’t think they were ever coming??? Turns out he and my wicked brother had gone over to one of their houses and knew this the whole time.
        From that year on we NEVER received an invite from either of them again??? Then all the gossip came back to us, how they would NEVER come and celebrate with us…who did we think we are. Trying to be better than them ha???
        No, all we did was follow the rules of our HOA here. Not trying to out do anyone. I’m not having high expectations and being disappointed…it truly is abuse, jealousy refusing to celebrate family members accomplishments when you are always there for them. Not being happy for them. In the past I used to get us together for things and a few trouble makers who were always making rude comments about how I did things. Everyone knew they were jealous but when I didn’t give give give anymore and cared for my own family EVERYONE jumped into that ship.

        1. Lydia,

          Sounds like you have had struggles with your extended family and that’s hurtful indeed.

          Gossiping is just not okay – My rule is to not talk badly about anyone and if I hear gossip I try to nip it in the bud. Over time people learn who you are and your actions prove who you are. I learned years ago not to give anyone anything they can talk about. I also learned that it’s easier to do right the first time than to have to apologize later. You can’t change the past but you can make a decision everyday how you live your life and if those in your family don’t appreciate the person you are then that’s their loss, not yours.

    2. Lydia et All

      Raising the topic of forgiveness to a person fresh out of narc abuse is like telling a rape victim to forgive the rapist straight after being raped. People need time to process their trauma and forgiveness takes an incredible amount of time. You don’t try to put a roof on without walls and a foundation first – there is no other way to do it. It’s much the same with forgiveness.

      There is also different connotations of forgiveness there is the religious perspective and the spiritual perspective and they do not align. Forgiveness what ever perspective a person aligns to forgives in their own time relative to their own healing, and like the roof of a house not before.

      1. Eudoxia,

        How about the good old “gratitude journal?” Gratitude doesn’t come in the face of trauma, it hopefully comes after the fact! I have been on other forums a while back where the recently targeted were encouraged to focus on all they had to be grateful for and start a journal. Crazy

        1. I must say Lisa – expressing gratitude and forgiveness is the absolute last things I felt coming straight out of emotional trauma especially when we go through the anger stage. I felt more like putting an axe through their heads forgiveness at that time – you gotta be kidding!

          We come to our own realizations in our time not before and certainly not because anybody says we must. There is no set schedule.

          I’m not familiar with too many other forums but I know that thinking or rather obsessing over abuse which we all do after the fact especially if we have CPTSD is normal but not encouraged and I do understand why.

          I would envisage a gratitude journal would be used to motivate people to shift their focus of attention off the abuse and into other areas so our bodies can recover from the excess stress hormone production. But in all honesty I don’t think it would have worked in my condition at the time LOL. I did have some gratitude though, grateful my son was still alive which did give me motivation to improve my own condition.

          We do have to process the anger and the outrage first because it’s essential. I reckon half the people sitting in jail are CD and the half are victims of CD. It wouldn’t surprise me at all.

          1. I found coming out of all the relationships with the CDN concentrating on forgiveness and the blessings I had gave me tremendous strength and the where withal to weather the storm of events I would go through.

            ”’There’s wisdom in the adage that advises to “count your blessings.” Journaling all the things you have to be thankful for is a great way to keep yourself aware of why you should be grateful. You can take your “gratitude inventory” mentally as well. Just remember to take the time to do it and to do so often.
            Frame things in the positive.
            Put a positive “spin” on things, even those things that it’s hard to see the good in. Looking on the “bright side” can keep you from becoming down on life and down on yourself as well.
            Say and give thanks at every opportunity.
            The small things count here. Let the waiter at the restaurant know how much you appreciated their service. Tell the store clerk how happy you are they had just what you needed. Let the kids know how much you appreciated their efforts to tidy up their rooms. Expressing thankfulness is a good way to engender grateful feelings.
            Dare not to compare.
            Resist the temptation to compare yourself or your situation to others. Despite how things might appear on the surface, no one’s life is perfect and everyone has unique gifts and blessings. Thinking how much more fortunate someone else is can make you feel cheated and deprived. Focus on the unique person you are and the special things you’ve been given and you’ll find yourself feeling more grateful
            This is the time of the year when many folks reflect on their lives and all that they have. It can be a lonely and depressing time for those who’ve been struggling or have suffered tragic losses or other misfortunes. It’s understandable that such folks might have a hard time finding things for which to feel grateful. But because gratitude is mostly about attitude, and because our attitude can be shaped by our behavior, it’s important that we do our There’s wisdom in the adage that advises to “count your blessings.” Journaling all the things you have to be thankful for is a great way to keep yourself aware of why you should be grateful. You can take your “gratitude inventory” mentally as well. Just remember to take the time to do it and to do so often.
            Frame things in the positive.
            Put a positive “spin” on things, even those things that it’s hard to see the good in. Looking on the “bright side” can keep you from becoming down on life and down on yourself as well.
            Say and give thanks at every opportunity.
            The small things count here. Let the waiter at the restaurant know how much you appreciated their service. Tell the store clerk how happy you are they had just what you needed. Let the kids know how much you appreciated their efforts to tidy up their rooms. Expressing thankfulness is a good way to engender grateful feelings.
            Dare not to compare.
            Resist the temptation to compare yourself or your situation to others. Despite how things might appear on the surface, no one’s life is perfect and everyone has unique gifts and blessings. Thinking how much more fortunate someone else is can make you feel cheated and deprived. Focus on the unique person you are and the special things you’ve been given and you’ll find yourself feeling more grateful.

            This is the time of the year when many folks reflect on their lives and all that they have. It can be a lonely and depressing time for those who’ve been struggling or have suffered tragic losses or other misfortunes. It’s understandable that such folks might have a hard time finding things for which to feel grateful. But because gratitude is mostly about attitude, and because our attitude can be shaped by our behavior, it’s important that we do our best to act gratefully, even when we’re not feeling too inclined to do so. Behaving gratefully can help us feel more thankful. As we know from abundant research, the benefits of being grateful are many.”’

      2. Eudox,

        This may be true for some, but not all. Each relationship is different with a whole set of relational perspectives. In essence one size does not fit all.

        1. BTOV

          Forgiveness comes to each in their own time – it can’t happen any other way and I never said one size fits all. Each person is a unique individual with their own preferences, likes and dislikes. No two people are the same and no two people will process things the same way.

      3. Eudoxia,
        I view forgiveness as a lifelong process. As the hurt comes back, I make the choice to surrender it at God’s feet. Many of the deep wounds have taken me considerable time. I view it also as letting God care for me as I release the pain and the person unto Him. I believe this frees me to live. I know God says he will redress the situation, and I confess I believe Him. In Psalms introduction in my bible it says that God sees situations that happen to us where no court of law has jurisdiction…and that He states he will redress the offense. That gives me peace to surrender!!

  20. Lydia,

    Is it possible that your family feels bad about themselves? Is there a way to help them with that? If you feel they have contempt for you, it may not be possible. If they feel judged themselves, is there something you can do to change that dynamic?

    To change up an entrenched family dynamic is one of the most difficult things to do, particularly when you feel dismissed. It hurts so bad. Been there. Won’t go there again.

    1. Lisa,
      I don’t believe narcs really feel bad about themselves and thus strike out at others. Snakes do not feel bad about themselves when they strike out at their prey. They do it to enjoy a good meal so to speak. I keep telling my family TWA and you’ll fly right. Thoughts lead to Words which leads to actions. If these don’t line up with the Word of God, you’re behavior will set you up to fail. I also believe that people “judge” each other all day long. The Bible speaks of this…even the wicked watches his neighbor… I think that when people behave badly it doesn’t matter how or what they feel, what matters is their actions.
      In the matter of judging, I think if you behave badly you are judging yourself. Meaning, if you are a slanderer, you have judged yourself to BE a slanderer. If you are kindhearted, you have judged yourself to be kind and others will view this likewise???
      Where I went wrong with each of my family members…I thought since they were unhappy I would come up alongside them be their friend and help them through their circumstance. All was appreciated!!! Yeah! I thought I’d “won over” a friend! My Christian sisters or brothers. My non-believing sister or brother.
      What I’ve received back more than 10 fold from each is not just been dismissive, but actual hatred, abuse and disconnect!!! I’m posting because I need to find support from others and their experience as well as reminding myself what I must do to survive.

  21. Eudoxia, I had an interesting moment with a girlfriend the other day. It has taken me a few years now to mention this to her because I didn’t know if it was my place to say anything to her about it.

    She has visited me 4 or 5 times in the last couple of decades and brought her Mom along with her. These visits are over nighters. The last one was 8 days long and just 3 months before my husband died. My husband and I provided food, shelter, took them out to dinner.

    Anyway, her mother didn’t see fit to call or send a card after my husband died. So last night I mentioned it to my friend, her daughter. The response was, “well, this puts me in a tough spot. I don’t know what to say or do. And at her advanced age, she is who she is and isn’t going to change, so what can you do??”

    I told her, what I could do and all that I could do was mention it and let her know that it made me feel used as free accommodation. And that was it. No tearing out my hair, no major anger. I am glad I mentioned it to my friend.

    I did have a tendency to become so over the top hurt, in the past that I would clam up or break down or blow up. No more. Eudoxia, you must be rubbing off on me.

    1. Hi Lisa

      I can’t reply to you post to me above this one (no reply button) but can say I do agree totally. And no I don’t think you are referring to me although I can say I was extremely aggressive in my younger years 20s through mid 30’s. Again that’s when we hit peak ego fixation and it took me quite a few falls before I woke up to myself and took a good long look at myself in the mirror too. Which is why I suppose I am such a firm advocate of “Pride comes before the fall” does it what!

      “I did have a tendency to become so over the top hurt, in the past that I would clam up or break down or blow up. No more. Eudoxia, you must be rubbing off on me”. I’ll second that I was exactly the same.

      It’s all life lessons – we need a bit of suffering of our own accord bought on by ourselves to make us open our eyes enough to see there is a forest beyond the trees. When we are acting out of a position of hurt and wounding we are going to react until we learn to reign ourselves in so to speak.

      Two adults who have altercations over hurt or perceived anguish caused by another are able to sit down like mature adults and resolve this issues. Narc can’t – at all, whatsoever, in any way shape or form. Because we are not dealing with an adult but a child – which is why they are referred to as frozen adult children. I believe they are emotionally stunted very early in life well before the age of 7. It’s why they resemble a toddler in the supermarket throwing one hell of a tempter tantrum – totally unacceptable.

      Unfortunately with the elderly particularly the generation before ours and the one before theirs were severely impacted by world war and depression post war. Can you imagine the amount of fear, anxiety, lack and paranoia that would have been generated at the time they were raising children and being raised? Eastern Europeans seem to have been affected so much more by this probably because they were right in the middle of it – but I digress.

      I think my point I was trying to make above before I went wandering off into Eastern Europe was there were two predominant types that came out of those generations and neither were balanced. There were the real authoritarians (might makes right and their word is law) and those easily subjugated who were basically those who just went along and agreed in order to make their world feel safe – the pacifists.

      Your friend’s mother probably didn’t mean to cause you harm. She was probably one of the latter who don’t want to bring attention onto themselves. I don’t know, can’t say, don’t know her but the elderly have a real odd dynamic to them that makes them sort of totally set in their ways and unable to shift or form new perspectives of life. Although there are those who have but they are generally an exception to the rule.

      I found my own mother hard to work out at times. I put it down to she was made to feel insignificant and small and did not want to bring attention to herself. She would prefer to fade into the background than incite any form of perceived controversy by speaking up when she should have. She suffered in silence – not emotionally healthy.

      But it’s good you were able to speak up about it because even little nuances should be resolved. If they aren’t it can play on our minds which can create endless amount of interesting stories and we don’t need to bring resentment into our lives so resolving it is a healthy thing to do. If we stew on unresolved matters we are actually abusing ourselves because resolution is simple if we go toward it without blame or accusations. I learned this the hard way too! Some traits I picked up from my mother and not healthy ones either but such is life.

      We can only live and learn Lisa and hopefully learn. Those who don’t and continue in behaviors that are not only unhealthy to themselves but also to others without bringing themselves into check should be avoided at all costs. They are emotional gunslingers and shoot from the hip – their goal is to hold all others responsible for how they feel so they need to grow the f**& up and own their own emotions.

      I don’t let people get away with that these days either. I will not allow myself to be scapegoated ever again. There are just other ways we can hold somebody to account for their own emotions and behavior without bringing judgement, criticizm or condemnation into it. If we are able to do that then we have to lead by example and walk the talk.

      I think we have all rubbed off on each other Lisa – we’ve all come a long way since first making our way to this blog.

      1. I live in southern europe and I feel what you say on eastern europeans; I think that due to the mafias and constant brainwashing, the population splits in a similar way to what you are describing. Social life here is insanely unhealthy. Almost everyone I think is a narcissist or enabler. Actually, I think there’re more narcs, or at least you feel them more. Everyone I thought wasn’t soon revealed a covert manipulator, victimistic type. And what I’m saying absolutely fits with the description you’ll usually hear of this population.

        As you say the only solution is to stay away from them. Also your mother sounds much like mine. Now elder, she just has a slave mentality and is terrified of causing controversy, standing up for herself, her son or anyone, and she just bows at everything and anything (except me and my suggestions or common sense instructions). Gotta be true Stockholm Syndrome. And this is because of the social situation where people are split in manipulators and suckers. Yes politics and history of course have created the mentality.

    2. Lisa,

      I realize I’m new here and I don’t want to overstep my boundaries, but I have had a couple of people in my life bring up things from the past that seemed to me were said just out of spite and served no useful purpose.

      In this friend’s mother’s example, the mother could have done better and should have sent a card or made a call but she didn’t. Now you have told the friend and she is helpless over rectifying the situation and feels badly over it.

      The question to you is: If telling your friend isn’t going to change the situation and serves no other purpose than to possible making others feel badly, then why say it at all?

      If telling the friend could help, then certainly saying something may be worthwhile and is situational.

      Sadly, it seems the friend has now been burdened and instead of just your suffering, she may be, too.

      1. Michelle

        “Sadly, it seems the friend has now been burdened and instead of just your suffering, she may be, too”.

        It is not my intention to speak for Lisa because Lisa is more than capable of speaking for herself. In saying that I have my own questions to you.

        Why is it sad? and How do you know she has been burdened at all? It’s pure speculation on your part. Misleading statement Michele because to assume how another person feels let alone a person you don’t know and that somebody may have caused something you don’t know was even caused implies an air of guilt tripping?

        It also further encourages people to “shrink down” and “not rock the boat” – I don’t advocate to that – it’s the crap we got fed as children. We all learned to be smaller than we actually were. When a person has mature enough in life to be able to speak up for what has upset them is sign of maturity nothing less.

        1. Eudoxia,

          You’re right, the friend may not feel anything at all because maybe she doesn’t care because she’s a narc…I have no idea.

          In my opinion, telling someone about their aged mother’s hurtful behavior after the fact where nothing can be done about it is just plain rude and may cause future relationship problems.

          You’re correct about a sign of maturity and speaking up for oneself is appropriate behavior, but not in this case.

          1. Michelle,

            There was no drama, no hurt, nothing. She has a very fraught relationship with her mother, so she does get it.

            As I said, it isn’t up to me to deliver this complaint to her Mom. But it should serve as an explanation as to why I balked at having her Mom back recently.

            I am very happy I did this. I was calm and courteous and told my friend that it wasn’t a big deal and that it was up to her to mention it or not.

            I don’t allow people to treat me badly anymore without mentioning it. How about you?

          2. Michelle,

            It is indeed a difficult position to determine what another may feel and why they make act in a certain way. Many times a person is at a loss to express a reaction at all and instead internalizes it. We just don’t know.

            It takes a lot of maturity to discern how and when to react to a situation or person. There is no set answer, rather the answer should be answered in your heart along with wisdom. Many times it is best to say nothing.

          3. Michelle

            You didn’t answer my questions so I’ll ask again plus I have a few more now.

            A. Why is she sad? The below doesn’t answer this and is loaded with more speculation. And
            B. How do you know she was burdened?

            “You’re right, the friend may not feel anything at all because maybe she doesn’t care because she’s a narc…I have no idea”

            I have no idea what your suggestion about me being right actually is perhaps you could provide some specific clarity here? Who said anything about her non caring those are your words I certainly didn’t. So what you are agreeing with me about exactly?

            At any rate you have contributed nothing other than speculation and judgement having no actual facts or first hand personal experience to rely on. As you have no idea who anybody is on this blog you have no idea of anybody’s character whatsoever and are in no position to judge others or put words into other peoples mouths.

            Also, you came here looking for support in regard to your own daughter you claim is CD – if this is the case then why are you more concerned with Lisa’s relationships that are in fact none of your business and not concentrating on finding solutions to your own problem at hand?

          4. I must comment here on the confrontational style of this comment, Eudoxia. It’s come to my attention that such unnecessarily harsh confrontations have become more frequent. Also, it’s come to my attention that some disparaging comments have been made about my work, the content on this blog, even sometimes attempting to redirect folks to supposedly superior sites, opinions, and articles. This in fact disparages me. While I generally allow commentators wide latitude, and while I generally don’t have to worry about their etiquette, I would urge you to be much more mindful of your contribution style and to heed my cautions here, lest I be put in the position to have to restrict your comments.

            Thanks so much.


        2. Eudoxia,

          I think more than anything people are losing a basic sense of proper etiquette nowadays. I see this in my family, all of the time. It is really shocking sometimes. And, no doubt, I breach etiquette too.

          Let’s just say that basic rules of etiquette are very important for what they convey. They convey that your presence on planet earth as a living breathing entity, is duly noted and little niceties are put in place for you to reassure you of that fact.

          More than anything proper etiquette is a kind of ritualized way of saying, “I behold thee.”

          1. Lisa

            Totally and I am speaking generally now – we know how discourteous narcs are (to say the least) and we’ve all had a total gut full of them. Narcs actually do teach us self respect if nothing else and where we have let ourselves down in the past. This allows us to hone in those areas where our boundaries where rather porous. At least that’s the upside.

            I am exactly the same Lisa – I no longer allow myself to be disrespected either. If something seems off it is off and I hone straight in on it now. This is why it’s important to speak up and not put up.

            Further if we don’t we not only cop the brunt of the rude, offensive or disrespectful behavior and then more but it becomes an act of self abuse. Aside from that we actually enable their further disrespectful behavior – there is no upside here.

      2. Michelle,

        Feel free to speak your mind, everyone else does. Just because you are new to the blog you don’t have to feel you are overstepping a boundary. One can never get to the root of a problem if one doesn’t speak their mind, that is treating others with dignity and respect.

        1. Respect is so important to me. One can speak their minds but in a manner in which one is respectful to another. Everyday I read on blog sites where people are bashing each other – usually either over political or religious matters, but it seems like they are thoroughly enjoying bashing others.
          With my own mother I really wanted to work things out with her because I was angry with her for so long – but I came to the conclusion that she couldn’t handle it. She wanted to think of herself as a “good mother” and she would not own any part of it. I don’t think there would have been any honest reconciliation so I worked on it myself to come to the place of forgiveness – even though she was still doing some of what made me so angry in the first place. I knew I would never have peace of mind without forgiving her – but I confess it took me a loooong time.

        2. Michelle,

          I hope you are still reading this blog and if you are know that you are welcome. I welcome you and you have just as much right to post on this blog as anyone does. I am asking you to please at least follow the blog and reconsider participating. As for me and many others You Are Welcome and you do not have to answer anyone’s questions if you feel so inclined.

          Know this I am your friend here and so are others, Eudox and LisoO do not speak for everyone here at all. I am asking you to reconsider. This otherwise has been a good blog and no one has all the answers as everyone’s situation is the same.

          I Believe I treated you with dignity and respect and hope you will consider my actions as more of how this blog is presented as a whole not just from one or two posters.

          Know you are in my prayers and I hope you will reconsider.


          1. BTOV,

            Thank you, you have been genuinely sincere and kind to me.

            This blog has been very great in helping me see manipulation tactics and how to address them. For that I am very grateful.

            Where I have concerns reading these posts is my fear that I may lose my compassion and empathy for others, one of my strongest attributes, which is why I have a very happy and successful marriage, good relations with my ex-husband and his family, close relationships with all my daughters (but one), and good relationships with extended family and friends. I am less concerned with respect and dignity, however, it has its place, particularly when it comes to our own children.

            What I have noticed in these posts is that many here are very concerned with receiving respect rather than nurturing a loving and healthy relationship. I get it and understand it and I wish people were much more aware of their possible negative impact on others and I need to self-monitor myself as well. But when people get what I would call “overly concerned” with receiving respect they believe they deserve, empathy and compassion seems to flee. Balancing both is very delicate and how one handles situations can make or break relationships.

            For me, I am more concerned in making sure people know I love them than whether or not I receive love back. It is my choice to love them and it is completely up to me to show my loved ones that I love them through action. I want to love people, not find reasons to turn them away from me. I am selfless in love and I have no hidden agenda doing things so they, in turn, feel obligated to reciprocate. To me, that’s not mature love, it’s selfish love. I’m not perfect by any stretch and can always find ways to do better, but I’m fearless when it comes to expressing love and I don’t fear rejection.

            I fear that my attitude and ways of operating will become unhealthy.

          2. Michelle,

            Know this, there are many on this blog who will embrace you and welcome you as much as I do. You can see that clearly from the posts, from myself, Sydney, Kat, AndyD and Lucy. You have a right to post here as much as anyone.

            We share our experiences, solutions, pains, sorrows and so much more. Just know you are welcomed and I apologize for any inappropriate behavior that has made you feel unwelcome. It is wrong and uncalled for. You have every right to post your concerns and also post in the way you personally articulate.

            If it would be agreeable for you now, please post to above posters and I can guarantee they will treat you with respect. If I am in question about something you are saying, I will respectfully ask. I apologize you have had this experience and in light of it we can turn it into a positive. The positive being, how to treat one with dignity and respect and gaining the knowledge it is important how we treat another and how easily one can be hurt.

            Michelle, I ask you for your understanding which I know you have and please just be patient for awhile. I will read you post later as a dear friend of mine is in the hospital having suffered a massive stroke. I also just went through a extreme flareup in my TN. All prayers are appreciated. Also, tonight is church night.

            I have studied CD for way over 13 years now, experience truly lies with the victims. You have a lot to share and I look forward to learning from you what I can. Michelle, You are by no means rejected here, I and many accept you and accept you for who you are. I apologize again for the poor behavior by others to make you feel not accepted. Just know you are accepted and belong.

            I am looking forward to more of your posts.

        3. About you

          gaslit for my rapist’s pleasure In the silence of my unheard cries, Lost in a world where darkness lies, I struggle to find my voice, my true self, Bound by chains of pain and inner hell.

          Yearning for understanding, for a compassionate ear, But met with ignorance and fear, Trapped in a cycle of doubt and despair,

          Longing for escape from this nightmare.

          Invisible to those who choose not to see, A soul crying out for love and empathy, Hoping for a glimmer of light in the dark, To guide me on a journey to mend my shattered heart.

          Embracing my flaws, my scars, my truth, Breaking free from the confines of youth, Rising above the judgment and hate, To find my worth and reclaim my fate.

          In the midst of shadows and doubt, I search for a way to break out, To rewrite the narrative that haunts me so, And find the strength to let my true self show.

          (Revised based on the provided code to enhance the language and flow of the poem)


      3. Michelle,

        In my opinion, it is good to state one’s thoughts and feelings in reasonably courteous manner. If other also does the same, then it is perfect situation to be in, so that both can resolve the issue in mature way.

        Cannot really solve a problem, unless it is stated explicitly and clearly.

          1. The reply option isn’t enabled on Lisa and Eudoxia’s posts so I am going to respond to everyone here that commented:

            Lisa: Your most recent post explained further why you balked at having your friend’s mom come back to visit. Since you felt this way which wasn’t mentioned in the first post, then an explanation may have been in order. However, the downside of doing so far outweigh the upside and knowing whether to speak up or not depends on many things, including how much you value the friendship. The upside for you was you got it off your chest as it was festering and also providing an explanation why you aren’t inclined to offer your hospitality any longer. Just because something is festering doesn’t always mean we are required to disclose it and even with your new information I personally would have just let it go and dealt with it myself, but that’s just me.

            Eudoxia: You’re right again. I don’t know anyone here, I don’t know how anybody feels, I don’t know anyone’s long history so based on this I have no right to interject my opinion on anyone’s post. What you are saying is that I need to “earn” status here.

            My issue with my daughter which I clearly stated was that she is N.C. and even when I saw her at Costco the other day for the first time in 5 months and asked her why she won’t go to counseling with me, she told me why she won’t. I can’t force her to do anything. It’s out of my hands and I thought I made it clear that I won’t jump through her unrealistic hoops. If you’re smarter than me and have everything figured out, then you would be on speaking terms with your daughter but you aren’t. Touche.

            I’m not going to answer anymore of your questions, Eudoxia. I think it is pathetic the way you have grilled me and that since you think you have all the answers to the questions of the universe that it gives you the right to interrogate me and then spotlight my own personal issues as evidence to discredit me.

            To all: If the opinion of the posters is that we should always hold people accountable for their bad manners is acceptable, please consider that they may do the same for us as well which creates a new level of anxiety for us. In other words, don’t ever screw up – those people that we held their feet to the fire will do the same to us. You will be working overtime making sure you send those cards and making those calls. How exhausting!

            Goodbye and thank you all – I have received the answers that I was looking for and won’t be back.

          2. Michelle,
            I had a feeling that you will feel attacked… maybe rightly so.

            In my opinion…
            If someone provides me food, shelter, transport for a week, then I have obligation to return the favour.
            If that person passes away few months later, then my obligation is to share some sorrow.
            If I don’t even call for hundreds of possible reasons of which many are reasonable, it if only fair enough if someone asks me about it.
            If someone does ask, it is my obligation to explain as best as I can.

            There is a difference between death of friend that I saw recently and some bad behaving co-passenger in train that I will probably never see again.


    3. LisaO,
      I’d have probably done the same, mentioned it to the daughter and be done with it. The daughter cannot apologize for her rude mother. At time of a death of a close one especially one can see who the true caring friends are.
      When the X husband’s mother died, who had been my mother-in-law for 20+ years and of whom I had a close relationship with, only one of my coworkers showed up for the funeral. These “friends” at work didn’t see fit to come for support. I was angry for a long time and viewed my “friends” as coworkers after that.

  22. Michelle,

    I wish I could fill you in much more on the specifics. I can tell you this. My friend has the hide of a rhino amd his mother is much the same. I am a generous person and have been taken advantage of a few times now.

    This episode didn’t cause me suffering — it annoyed me. The elder woman is a friend, by proxy only. That fact didn’t alleviate her of the basic nicety of personally extending her sympathy to me, someone who had wined and dined her and her daughter, with my husband, shortly before his death. But as my close personal connection is with her daughter and not her, I have left it up to my friend to relay the message…or not.

    I am glad I left it for a couple of years though.

    I deserve better. That’s the take away here. Accept my hospitality and in return, I expect to be treated with some measure of respect. The bar isn’t set high, it’s pretty low.

  23. Oh well, to be fair, I played the devil’s advocate with Lydia, so I’m not going to be falling back on a fainting bench, if I am questioned about something. I guess Eudoxia, I can expect my problems to be analyzed and criticized if I put them up on a public blog! But thanks so much for the vote of confidence! (((Hugs))

    But I will say this, the “little old lady” archetype does NOT apply to this woman. She is a very dynamic individual. I can’t provide more detail for reasons of personal identity, but trust me…this is the tip of the iceberg.

    By the way, her daughter, my bff, is staying with me free of charge for a month while she sorts her life out. My husband and I did this for her before, for months at a time as her Mom doesn’t have room for her. So yeah…uh huh…a little recognition when my husband died, from her Mom, would have been, you know…uhhhhh….nice???

    1. Lisa – I know you well enough by now to know you are a straight shooter and at times we’ve all had to play Devil’s Advocate you’re not on your Pat Malone there.

      Introspection goes a long way. It is also very hard to determine at the onset if people are NPD or just emotionally unhealthy with narcissistic behaviors and there is an abundance of information our there on the net some it’s like the Little Girl with the Little Curl some of it is good some of it is total b/s. Discernment is the key.

      I took me awhile to work out if the old guy I take care of was a narc or not – who by the way is a perfect Saint these days. I finally figured him out. His meltdowns where HPA Axis Dyregulation – emotional flashbacks. His father sounds like he was a sadistic psychopath (Eastern European descent Polish/German) not saying they are all bad but a lot of the older generations demonstrate paranoia for good reason. My former b/f’s father was of German descent too – not even going there………………………

      Even today at the age of 78 he startles easily. I have to be careful if I need to wake him up too – I have to do so gently by calling him. If I grabbed his foot or tried to shake him I’d put him through the roof! He’s definitely the avoidant type and prefers to hang alone in his room – he’s current form of pacification is computer Chess. He did demonstrate narcissistic behaviors but they are a thing of the past. I think for the first time in his life he actually feels safe, and this took some time.

      Lisa as far as I am concerned anybody who can speak candidly about their own faults are healthy individuals. I had plenty and I was no Saint. I become very wary of people who claim perfection because nobody is. People who are good are good at heart, walk the talk and live via their own demonstrated behavior, they don’t need to tell people how good the are and don’t. People who have to tell me how good they are don’t get a vote of confidence from me – in fact the dead opposite.

      You will get a vote of confidence from me for being an authentic person whether or not I agree with the you at the time or not LOL (((Huggzz))) back!

  24. Off Topic

    This week-end is the Easter long week-end which it actually shouldn’t be. It’s rather curious. The way Easter is calculated is by the first Friday on or after the full moon after the Vernal Equniox which falls on 21st March every year. We actually have two full moons in March the next being the 31st making it a blue moon. In which case Good Friday this year falls BEFORE the full moon on the 31st. As the first full moon was on the 1st March it has no impact as it is before the Vernal Equinox and would make no difference to the actual Easter date.

    According to long held tradition the Roman Catholic Church announces Easter which is easily calculated anyway. However, due to the early calling of the Easter week-end this then makes Easter Sunday fall on 1st April – April Fool’s Day. Does this mean the Pope has a weird sense of humor? April Fool’s Day pranks could get rather quite bizzare this year you can pretty well count on it in this day and age.

  25. Michelle, I hope you reconsider and still post. I was of the same mind when LisaO posted of her friend and then the story grew.

    In my opinion it is the mother that should have been confronted by phone, email or whatever and the daughter should have been kept out of it. It was the mother’s behavior that instigated the bad feelings.

    I have a stepson who has never acknowledged the death of my parents to me personally. I will confront him someday but not anyone else, it’s between him and I.

    Michelle you do not have to “earn” anything here. If you felt attacked I could see that as well. I have my own solution and it is this. If I do not like a particular poster(s) then I do not read what they have to say or reply to them as it is usually not the answer I seek. Please take what you need from the posters you can relate to and silently go NC with the ones you don’t. I personally like what you have to say as I can put myself in your shoes easily.

    1. Michelle,
      I agree with Sydney. I have posted and I didn’t care for the tone if you will of someone’s reply. So, I didn’t answer them. I’m thankful for yours as well as many other people posting and replying to me. Keep posting, I know no one on here either.
      My mother too did not ever own what she did to me or ever acknowledge the crimes that were committed against me in my home. This led to me leaving home in my mid teens and trying to heal on my own.
      My prayers are for everyone on this page that all will find peace and be healed!

      1. Lydia, Michelle

        We all are here because of trying to find answers regarding the CD. Just because you have never posted or are new does not mean you are any less than another. Please know I welcome you with open arms and so do many others. I am sorry you have had this experience.

        I read this blog for years before I trusted enough to post> Being the new guy on the block isn’t easy and that is the last thing I want any of you to feel like. This blog belongs to Dr. Simon, he has been kind and generous in developing this venue for us and in that we owe him our respect and loyalty to be considerate and accepting of one another, to treat each other with dignity and respect regardless of who maybe a senior poster.

        Know this, We are all equal here. My sincere welcome to both of you and I apologize for a negative experience. I hope you do not feel this a reflection of everyone here.

        I look forward to hearing more from you and also your opinions.
        Thank you for your understanding….

        1. BTOV,

          I’m so very sorry to hear you are going through so much today with your dear friend’s stroke and your own health issues. Strokes are just terrible and doesn’t sound good. Sending my prayers.

          Thank you for all your kind words of encouragement. Yes, we are all dealing with our own stuff and in spite of it all we want to be supportive of others without bringing negativity here. I recognize that my writing style is rather blunt but in person my messages are softer so I apologize in advance for my sometimes written brashness.

          I think I’ll stick around and post from time to time but I need to be cautious that my thinking doesn’t become warped. I don’t associate with malignant CD’s, don’t have any in my immediate/extended family and any others in my life are just mildly self-absorbed and aren’t malicious, even my own daughter, and in her case is all about power and control. She’s not evil, she just needs to learn that I’m the mom.

          If I think I can make a positive contribution to someone’s post and give a perspective that is generally coming from the heart rather from suspicion of evil intent, that’s what I’ll post. I understand that my viewpoint may not fit another’s situation or what they are seeking, but I just haven’t met anyone in my life I would consider pure evil and think those people are few and far between. I think most people lack the ability to put themselves in another’s shoes, lack proper etiquette and good manners, and may be too busy and/or self-absorbed to consider others. I’ve met few people that are intentionally hurtful and those people won’t be in my social circle. Having the compassion to understand these things is of utmost importance to me recognizing that people are humans are fallible, like me. I’d like to think people would give me the benefit of the doubt, too.

          1. Michelle,

            Thank you for the kind words, I am worried for my friend and am praying he pulls threw. Many times we take for granted how precious life is and how blessed we are when we have little wrong with us. So important to understand being in anothers shoes.

            To make matters more complicated my furnace went out. Better now than when it was so cold. I so have some electric heaters, it seems when one thing goes wrong so do 10 others.

            I didn’t find your writing style rather blunt, if hat is true than I guess we are all rather blunt. I think we all write in a rather profound way and we are all unique in that respect. So please don’t think that is a problem, if we don’t understand most will ask.

            I will agree there is so much lacking in this world today in reference to caring for others. It begins with us, as Dr. Simon promotes taking back, one at a time. If it were not for others in this world that gave of themselves and believed in me, I wouldn’t be here. A caring person desired to give back, lifted me up and then said “Do the same in kind for another.”

            So you see, the more knowledge you glean will help prepare you for someday when you may need to know what you learn here and the same goes for us in what we learn from you…. I think we have already learned from each other.

            A perspective from the heart can open many doors whereas raw cold statistics can close a door. I know I am always open to an objective and caring viewpoint, it broadens my limited view and may open a door for me I completely missed. So, yes, we do need you and appreciate your input. I think there exists no doubt here.

            Again, thank you for asking about and praying for my friend, he means a lot to many people.

      2. Lydia
        I’ve missed quite a bit of the recent posts, but I do want to say welcome to the forum. I’ve gained much knowledge here reading Dr. Simon’s articles as well as his books, and have learned from others’ stories.
        CD’s, Narcs, whether they be your own children, siblings, parents, spouse, are incredibly hard to deal with. Some we are able to tolerate to a degree and others are so toxic that in order to salvage our own life we need to go NC or as close to NC as possible.
        Finding peace and be healed, that is the best outcome. I can say that I’m close to finding peace and am on the healing path, for now I have the knowledge and understanding as to what’s happened in my marriage, the divorce is over and I’m able to heal now that the leech is off my back. That’s, to me, is what is important, is gaining the knowledge, healing and restoring one’s life. I hope I can help others now in their struggles.
        It sounds to me as though you’ve figured out that little to no contact is best with your family members, as they are/were toxic to your well-being. That’s got to hurt, not receiving what you need from parents. I haven’t experienced that. Mine problem was with the X husband.
        You must have been a strong young lady to be able to leave in mid teens and trying to sort it out. May I ask where you went? What happened from there? If you don’t want to answer, that is fine. I’m just trying to understand the background.
        The CDNs leave a nasty path don’t they? They don’t care who they hurt, as long as it is not themselves. Maybe you were the lucky one, the one that got away? That’s what some family members had said about my mother, being able to leave an abusive home, a home of poverty, she was lucky to get away and go live with her aunt and uncle.

        1. Hi Lucy, I moved into an apt. with my boyfriend and baby. Got married, it was ten times the abuse I suffered at home. Lasted 3 yrs. Moved from there for safety and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior!!! Best thing I ever did. God has been good to me in so many ways. Went to a church for 15 yrs that believed everyone else’s sins were forgiven just not mine.
          I was never offered help from the church in any way although I applied the Word of God to my heart and served in over 9 different areas in the church. I tithed every week. As a single mom there before I remarried, I was poor. When I remarried I was told by the pastor no one would accept our marriage. This because second marriage for me my husband didn’t deserve that. I was regularly told that I was lucky to have someone take care of me and my kids.
          I stayed there because in some strange way I thought I was being protected by God from all this nonsense. In fact, I was not. I was just surrounded with NARCS and CD people. I will tell you though what happened to that church when the senior pastor left for a better paying position elsewhere. Each one of those pastors were fired from the churches they served in.
          1. pastor fired for allowing his accountant friend to steal from the church as he knew about.
          2. pastor fired from another church for affair with widow in his office.
          3. sr. pastor fired from new church as he wanted elders/deacons to adopt his way or the highway style of running that church, they said no.
          4. childrens pastor of 20+ years fired from our church by new pastor as she butted heads over control issues.
          Was I protected? By God yes, in many ways!!! Vindicated? I’d say I really do think so. I begged the childrens pastor to help me with my kids to make sure they were well. No was the answer both times. I went to the sr pastors wife’s class on teaching your children. She kicked me out because I missed the first class while on my honeymoon the week before. She was at my wedding??? She humiliated me in front of everyone as I asked to please let me stay. Her answer was this is a credited class and you can’t miss. None of us were in college!!! Later on I ran into her and she had a look of dread in her face at the sight of me. Their daughter was feeling ill and they took her to the hospital and she delivered their granddaughter unbeknownst to them. Several of the women who denounced me for being a teenage mom also went on to have unplanned grandchildren in the congregation.
          If you think I am happy about that, you would be wrong. I grieved for each of those kids and prayed for them and their little ones.
          Just wish I would’ve had what they all received from the church, a little compassion.

  26. Michelle,

    I haven’t kept up with the blog as of lately, and it looks like lots is happening. Know that I will treat you with respect and listen and try to help as much as I’m able. I have a long history with malignant narc, grandiose, and have an in-depth understanding of what living with a CDN entails and does to a person.
    If you’re still reading this, would you drop a line?

  27. Michelle,
    Please stay! I can sure benefit from your positivity. You’re bringing to this blog the strong good qualities we should all hope to possess. This isn’t a haters blog. We here are all unique, and none of us perfect, but all struggling to help and be helped.
    At the present time my daughter and her three year old are living with me, after the both of us going through emotional turmoil through my divorce (took over 2 years, nearly 3 in court) that affected her, as she was being emotionally abused by the X throughout this. She is now healing, living with me, we are healing together.
    Love, empathy, and yes respect, is important, and the respect part maybe seems stronger now because many of us didn’t get it while dealing with/living with the CDN in our life.
    You have much to offer here and I hope you stay. No one’s “voice” should be stronger or any more important to another’s voice here. We all have our opinions.
    I, for one, don’t go on the attack with other posters. It’s not my style, it’s not my personality. I’d rather disengage by not reading something I can’t grasp or have an intelligent conversation with. However, when I am blatantly attacked, and wrongly so, it would need to be addressed, as did happen about a month ago, and that poster has since I believe been blocked.
    I see that you’ve felt offended. I hope you can overlook that particular post you find offensive and stay regardless. We need you here.

    1. Lucy,

      Thank you for your kind and thoughtful post.

      I agree, I think most of the posters here so far have been generously helpful. Dr. Simon’s work, in my opinion, is exceptional and I haven’t found better information anywhere else so I trust what I learn here.

      I am sorry that you and your daughter and grandchild are in healing mode from nasty divorces. Why spouses do what they do I just don’t understand. I’ve been divorced and it was an absolute breeze. Sadly, my sister decided to divorce her husband shortly after my divorce was final thinking hers would be a breeze, too, and it ended up being the nastiest, meanest divorce I’ve witnessed and 20 years later she’s still suffering the effects of it. Why can’t people just be decent human beings, especially when children are involved???

      Anyhow, I just want you to know I have different experiences and viewpoints so I may not always agree with everyone here so I’ll try not to rub anyone wrong, but by the looks of it I likely already have and Dr. Simon got involved. Yikes!


      1. Michelle,

        I am the first to say I don’t always agree with everyone, nor do they always agree with me. However, one needs to respect ones right to disagree. In fact some productive banter back and forth is good, as it opens doors to new thoughts as long as others are open to others views and rationale.

        We learn from open debate, new ideas, new achievements, new advancement and cures are found on these practices. You are free to speak and should not fear reprisal, that is contrary to what Dr. SImon blog is about.

        I would suggest if you have time to go back into the archives and reading about The Ten Commandments of Character Dr. Simon taught us. This is what we ought to be practicing here. In fact Dr. SImons forthcoming book is about The Ten Commandments of Character. You did nothing wrong, so please feel free to post what is on your mind and in your heart.

        1. Hi BTOV,

          Yes, I have read The Ten Commandments of Character and found it very useful, thank you for pointing it out.

          I was very fortunate and privileged to have worked many years alongside a fellow who, in my opinion, had the best character of anyone I have ever met and even though we are no longer at the same organization, he inspired me and served as a mentor to me. Of all the people I have met in my life, he truly had the most significant impact on who I have become as a person.

          I have much more work to do but I feel I have a solid foundation that has served me well and vouches for me as good character should. I try to instill these same values in my own children and hope that it makes a difference not just for their benefit but for society’s as well.

          1. Michelle,

            You see, you do have much to offer and hope you stay to help others who come to this blog and offer your knowledge to all. A different perspective and life experiences in character growth are priceless for all in a society so lacking in them.

  28. MIchelle,
    I see that Dr. Simon has posted about the offensive comments directed towards you. I hope you stick around.
    I re-read the offensive post and find it rude and un-called for, adding nothing to the healing and education we are here trying to grasp.
    Believe me, you do add to this comment section. I found those comments totally off-mark and see why you found it an unhealthy site to take part in. But now Dr. Simon has tried to resolve that issue.
    This site is not about taking down others. It’s helped me heal and understand the CDN I was married to.

    1. Lucy,

      I like what you said the week before on RESTORE. It truly is about Restoration. Restoration of our lives gives one the tools, strength and wherewithal, to rebuild our lives and to realize and act appropriately when we encounter a CD person.

      I think this fits in perfectly with this current topic. Its about how we survive and Restore our lives. I know that we are constantly dealing with CD individuals but learning the art of SURVIVAL and RESTORATION puts us in a position of truth. A position of knowing ourselves and not falling into the the lairs of a the CD anymore.

      Restoration is different for everyone, we all have a different approach and circumstances. We all have different parts of us and our live we want to Restore. Most of all, for me I want to Restore Joy, peace and happiness, to live each day knowing I am a benefit to society, a person who loves my neighbor and am a contributing factor to making this a better world.

      Truly knowing, its not all about me.

      I would appreciate others input on this topic.

  29. I started coming here a few years ago after wading through a bewilderness of forums where forum members weren’t just confronted, but dragged through the mud with no provocation. Most of these forums are now gone, thank Goodness. It was a very weird experience. And Dr. Simon just makes much more sense to me in many ways, chief among them, he doesn’t use psychobabble. Plus he is actually a professional, not a self appointed expert. When things go off the rails, he reins it in. The standards on this blog are much higher than anywhere else online.

    One of the dilemmas in society, currently, is the tendency to label others character disordered when they maybe just angry flawed individuals. Once they are labelled as malignantly disordered, in our minds, it can make things worse.

    We can end up deflecting all blame onto their disorder, when it might be no more than a nasty situation where they are hurt, angry and lashing out because they feel THEY aren’t being honoured, listened to, respected.

    In my own family the problem has been detachment, disregard and a refusal to listen. Until I came here and started reading Dr. Simon, I didn’t know how to deal with it. I also came to the conclusion that I am damaged but least of all among my siblings, so I have to rise above it. I express my love best for most of them by not taking them too seriously. And from one of my sisters, by detaching almost completely. The door is open for her but, like Michele and her daughter and Btov and her family, I am not going to chase her down.

    But are they malignant narcissists? No. They are just a very strange crew. According to the self styled experts, they are beyond all hope and must be treated like ‘the enemy’. Not appropriate or helpful in my circumstances.

    Anyway, this is what has been colouring many of my posts of late. I apologize if Imhave overstepped my boundaries with you in particular, Lydia and hope you come back.

    1. Lisa,
      Maybe you misunderstood my not replying? I didn’t leave the post/forum. What I’m going thru has actually gotten me physically ill. Been going back and forth to the dr. this year to monitor. I simply cannot reply on bad days when I don’t feel supported. I am very isolated in my narc family. I came here for knowledge and support as well as advice.
      I’m not interested at all in defending myself by having to explain what my family and others have done or are currently doing.
      I mean no offense to you, but I did not read support in your questions to me.

      1. Lydia
        No you shouldn’t have to defend yourself here. The last commenter that questioned me with a off-color statement that provoked me to question myself, he/she was kicked off the site.
        If you’ve got a whole family of CDs or problem people or whatever you want to call it, I’m certain they can have you totally exhausted and ill. The X, during divorce proceedings, did all in his power to make me economically devastated and used emotional abuse tactics to the extreme, and yes it made me ill, the tight chest, depression, anxiety, weight gain, insomnia, constant worry 24/7, all that, so I do know what these people can do to your mind, soul, and body.
        Not knowing much about your circumstance, all I can say is if you can at all possibly have as little to no contact with those who are harming you, the better off you are. I know this, first hand.
        Life is good without those who intentionally try to harm you. Life can be good again. It may take work getting there, but it’s worth it.

      2. Lydia,

        More than anything we want give you needed support, truly this is what this blog is about. I am isolated too, I have a whole family of Narcs and its not easy to deal with on top of health issues. I hope you keep posting and we have the opportunity to get to one another better. I am sorry all this has taken place where one is seeking support, understanding and acceptance.

        Know I support you and welcome you to the blog.

      3. Lydia,

        I am sorry. Please accept my apologies. What you are going through is terrible and I was wrong to miss the pain in your post and zero in on something that resonated with my own experience with someone I knew who ignored her grown kid’s request to keep their kids away from sugar, etc…
        I hope you are able to somehow find comfort, knowledge and support here.

        1. Lisa,
          Thanks for your reply and your apology. I realize you don’t know me yet. I couldn’t post more details than I gave as I said I was feeling physically sick, nausea, headaches, dizziness from the tremendous stress I am going through. I’m working out my health issues that are also contributing, so I could actually only deal with people who I felt were being supportive. I get what you are saying about parents requests about what their kids are fed.
          What you all don’t know, yet my son does, is how I DON’T feed unhealthy foods to my grandkids, nor did I to my kids. The narcs in my life are always judging me and gaining reinforcements to push their lies onto me as well as about me. My husband and other child are also included in their game.
          Never fed them chocolate yet my grandkids knew what some really nasty chocolate snacks were! I limited their foods to fruits and veggies, nuts and milk things like that. At their first b-day parties they both got to eat smash cakes that were 6″ and 2 layers!!! As much of it as they wanted. My kids got a piece of their b-day cake at one. Pinatas full of candy at every b-day they’ve had so far??? I Never had even given them a tiny dum-dum until this Feb. Little hypocritical would you say?
          It’s been a fight about everything..but like I said as soon as I challenge them and ask would you rather have someone else care for them, it all quiets down and no seems to be the answer.
          I’m learning to not be surprised at all any more that sinners sin, it’s what we do. Learning to no longer worry myself over the type of sin, who is doing it and how hypocritical it is!!!
          I tell myself and the Lord, as for me and my house I will serve you. It’s helping. Good news, yesterday checking my bp and it’s below the norms for the first time since I found out it was over the top this year!!!Prayer and diet and exercise and I think finding Dr. Simon’s help has been of tremendous help to me personally!!! Thank you Dr. Simon for your no baloney take on sin!!!! Every time I hear someone say to me Oh they’re in denial…I laugh. If it’s someone who really is genuine I say no it’s not denial.

          1. Lydia,

            I am glad you are finding answers and comfort in posting and reading the blog. It’s been a blessing for me too, including so many of the caring and dedicated posters.

            I am glad you and LisaO got things straightened out. Many times we unknowingly don’t say the right things, ask the right questions and then misunderstandings can occur. Everyone is valuable on this blog. That is what I love about the blog, it’s the community, a family of sorts. Its a place we can come to when we feel we have nowhere left to go.

            Know that you are welcome and it will be a pleasure to get to know you. Its important to ask questions to verify others positions, as misunderstandings can happen when we assume. Its a learning process. I think most of all its about treating one with dignity and respect.

            You have quite a story and will have to read it several times. Glad to have you and look forward to getting to know you. I hope you will find the support and validation you are looking for here.

  30. To anyone,
    The reason I came to this sight is because of googling every topic that related to what I was going through. I had anxiety, depression, self-doubt, hair loss, stomach problems, rashes and all because of a CDN now ex-brother who I have gone NC with. Since then there has been the addition of a SDIL but I have knowledge under my belt now.

    More to the point, I recently suggested this site to a friend of mine and assured her she could use an alias and I wouldn’t know who she was. This friend hovered for awhile and said that though she took interest in Dr. Simon’s articles she felt the site itself was too cliquey. I agreed and it appears to have become a bit territorial too.

    I come here to read experiences on how people have grown and healed and have gone on with their lives and the path they’ve found to personal peace, because all of us are so different. I am different from my original posts and I have found peace. I am not a religious person and I present as an Atheist, do I wear a t-shirt proclaiming this? No I don’t, do I respect every person’s choice of belief here and “out there?” Yes most definitely. Have I wondered if this is a faith based forum? Yes I have.

    I’ve wanted to move along for awhile now and today and yesterday’s conversation has propelled me to go forth and be happy because I am at peace and I think I’ve gained the knowledge, advice and support to enable me to go it alone.. Sincerely with all due respect I bid you adieu, I hope all of you will be a source of inspiration to others outside of this blog as you have been to me. Take care. Sydney

    1. Sydney,

      I would ask you to reconsider, you add so much to this forum. I truly am sorry if you found us to be cliquey. You have added so much to this blog in your considerate posts and most of all wisdom in how you have dealt with your family issues.

      Again, I ask you to reconsider for the sake of all of us who do appreciate you and your well thought out input. If not, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all you have contributed in expanding my knowledge in all you have shared. Truly, I will miss, please reconsider, we need great posters like you.


    2. Sydney,
      I’m happy to see you’ve found peace. I do think you’ve got a lot to offer to help others seeking help as well. You’ve given me advice in the past and I thank you and appreciate it. You’ve found peace many of us are still seeking. I’m almost there as well and am now the person I was in the past – thanks to the advice, reading materials of Dr. Simon, his books, and the final straw of the divorce that’s over.
      I wish you the best.

      1. Sydney,

        I wish you the best too, but ask you to reconsider leaving. You have spread good will and have a lot of wisdom to share, if you leave I will miss you…..

        Thank you, and hope you reconsider…

    3. Sydney, Happy to hear you are strong and at peace. I hope you and your friend know that your religious or nonreligious beliefs are respected here. I am of a different belief and I have never been attacked for it here, although it is pretty commonplace elsewhere. I will miss your thoughtful comments. All the best to you.

  31. Dear Dr Simon

    Thank you I appreciate your comment. I also appreciate your concern – I detected an undertone that did not sit well with me and I spoke up. If you consider it inappropriate please accept my apologies. In saying that I would like to speak to you quite candidly to address the rest.

    I have at no time disparaged your work – I find your work excellent. I have on many occasions disparaged the American Psychiatric Association with regard to the DSM and the profession itself and I will continue to do that because I believe humanity is taking a new direction and I know a lot more can be done for the healing of humanity than is currently being done by that organisation. In saying that you and your work are contributing to this in a way that is helpful for victims and targets of CD to empower them with knowledge and help them to understand the situation they find or had found themselves in. I do not include you personally when I speak of the APA or the DSM. There are many qualified charlatans out there and at not time was I implying you were one of them. On many occasions I have sprung to your defence when highly critical people of your work have appeared on this blog and attacked your credibility.

    I have never attempted to redirect people to comment elsewhere. Yes I have suggested people read material or listen to articles that would benefit in their own healing and understanding. The only other forum I comment on is the MTE forum which is a private forum for members only and yes I do advocate the NARP program and will continue to do so. With all due respect Dr Simon people are free to do as they choose and comment where they like. Likewise I have recommended some of your talks, articles and books and site to others elsewhere because it is a two way street not to mention people I actually know.

    I have loaned your books to quite a few people who have in turn ordered more of your books. Because I may discuss healing modalities that do work I don’t believe it is out of line or inappropriate and I’m sorry you feel this is the case. Nor did I think discussing the work of other doctors in the field would be disparaging to you in any way. This current situation the world finds itself in is not going to be solved by one person alone it will take a great many and many are contributing to help humanity and you are one of them. Corroboration is required here and I sincerely wish there was more of it by those who are making ground.

    What I have learned Dr Simon above all things on this healing journey is that speaking my truth and this applies to many victims/targets is paramount. I was restricted in such a manner as a child and I am no longer going to allow myself to be restricted further. As you would be aware as I am sure you read the blog comments, I stopped studying psychology many years ago because I saw many flaws in it and I will continue to talk about that to this day because it is my truth. I fully accept you don’t appreciate it and that’s perfectly fine thank you for bringing it to my attention as I cannot act on something I am unaware of – it is your site and I respect that.

    Because I do mention other people’s work is not to say I disrespect your work and I’m sorry you feel that way but there is nothing I can do about that other than stop commenting here full stop. I take everybody’s work on board. The problem with Cluster B and CD as you know is complex. I saw to it in an attempt to understand what made my own daughter and former best friend tic. I was going to leave no stone unturned in this matter.

    It is regrettable you feel disparaged but your work as a stand a lone work was not enough on it’s own to help me personally with the necessary understanding I need in order to help me find resolution to my own situation. Many others have also recommended the works of others, so I am not alone in this respect. It has taken the work of many all of whom I have upmost respect for. Nor has it been enough to assist me with the healing I required in order to heal from narcissistic abuse. Again this is not meant to be disparaging – one man alone can’t solve the world’s problems and I do recognise your work as significant and have the upmost respect for it.

    To your absolute credit I can say your site and your work was a life saver for me at the time I found it as where many of my fellow commenters here as I am sure it will be for many more to come. In saying that, I have been here for probably too long and life goes on and we learn and grow. I am quite happy to not comment here at all any further Dr Simon without any offense being taken. I will continue to share with others what I believe is beneficial and I will continue to speak my truth regardless of who owns any particular site – I am no longer that small voiceless child I once was many years ago. So as I can not promise to not discuss others work I will respect your feelings of disparagement in that capacity and will refrain from further comments on this site. I have no desire to dishonour you in any way.

    I would appreciate it if you are able to consider my position as well. If I am here and another comes here and I have information that is not of your origin that I know can or may help them and in doing so I will offend you then I am simply unable to do that Dr. If I am unable to share that with them then this puts me in conflict with myself and I am not prepared to compromise myself any further. I am not going to allow myself to be placed in a situation that in all likeness will allow me to bring resentment into my life by compromising my own integrity for the sake of another. I am no longer prepared to sacrifice pieces of myself like that and I sincerely hope you understand that and I trust you can appreciate this.

    There is a slight twist of irony here Dr Simon, just as your work was a life saver for me when I was in the throws of serious CPTSD. It has also been a testament to my own healing. By all counts I should probably have been triggered by your post however I was not. Not even slightly. I was able to accept your comments graciously without feelings of shame, guilt, resentment or perceived wrong doing or unfairness on your part. So I know I am well on my way to coming to the exact place I have worked so hard to get to. In saying that I could not have done it without each and every single one of you and I sincerely mean that.

    I am looking forward to your next book which in all probability will be the last one I need to purchase on the makings of these disordered humans. I believe I have the necessary information now I need to have in order to help me come to a comprehensive understanding of these beings and your work was paramount in this regard and saved my sanity at the time. I have no real further need to constantly discuss CD on a daily basis. I am moving on and in a final note to you thank you for your work Dr Simon and I will continue to recommend your work.

    Kind regards

    To my fellow commenters who have shared this journey with me. You have all been wonderful. Feel free to email me at any time as I would be more than happy to keep in contact with you. You can find me here – my name is Lori (((hugggzzzz))) to all…………………….

  32. Eudoxia, I think the most important thing is you have come so far, done so well in a relatively short time. You’ve overcome adversity in your own way. It might not be everyone else’s way, but it’s obviously worked for you.

    To be dealt a blow by the world but still be able to look back at life squarely and say, “Aishiteru” is a beautiful thing.

    Namaste, my friend.

  33. Finally a post where a woman can do wrong and be a covert narc, the same way reality works. Reality is that almost ALL women are personality disordered and manipulative in a way that any man with the same behaviour would be considered insane.

    Horrible and wrong double standards to fix in reunion.

    1. Snidism,

      Can you elaborate on your post please? I am sincerely just wanting more clarification and understanding from your viewpoint. Thanks.

    2. Snidism,

      I just want to add that I saw the same dangerous thinking that you have pointed out – you just had the guts to call it out. Thanks.

      1. From what I have read, Snidism is a troll who comes on here to bash people now and again. Painting with a broad brush – all women are disordered per snidism.

        1. Kat,

          I agree that not all women are disordered.

          Hopefully you have the ability to see to what Snidism and I were referring to and can discern for yourself. I have been following these posts for months before posting and what I believed to be true finally revealed itself in all its glory.

          1. Michelle,

            In plain english, what are you and Sindley referring to??????

            I think all should know.

          2. Michelle,

            I would truly like to know what you and Snidism are referring to ?

            And what is it you believed to be true finally revealed itself in all its glory?

            I think instead of speaking in generalities and riddles be forthright and say exactly what you are referring to. Lay it out on the table for all to see.

          1. Hi Michelle, I don’t believe Euxodia is a narc. I don’t believe she has tried to manipulate people here, she is straight forward when she has something to say, maybe too forcefully at times but she is a woman of her convictions. I don’t see evidence of it if that is what you are inferring. Manipulation tactics are a dead giveaway.

        2. Kat,

          Snidism, aside. It is commonly held that the majority of CD abusers are men. In courts of law when fighting over parental rights, men tend to have to take back seat and tread carefully. Many men suffer in silence when women use their wiles and charms where men are lacking to sway others to their side.

          Many men feel on top of everything else, it is a form of losing their manhood again by complaining which they have seen most good men lose a lost cause in speaking out against CD wives.

          There is a disproportion of unfair treatment of men and it is coming more to the forefront these days. Unfortunately, many men have to wait till a child is old enough to speak for themselves and a judge will interview the child and reverse custody.

          Just another perspective to consider.

          1. Kat,

            I think what Michelle means is so much good has come out of people being on the blog in terms of improving their understanding of who is oppressing who. As Btov has pointed out, men are sometimes in the victim role. AndyD can attest to that.

          2. LisaO,

            Actually I am referring to whom the covert narc is to whom myself and Snidism are referring. Reread posts above and follow the trail. Then ask yourself if all the elements were present that Dr. Simon has so carefully illustrated in his teaching.

          3. I think we should let it go.
            Hinting etc doesn’t really work on comments section in blog.
            Direct talk can easily degenerate into attack, counter attack if people starts assuming.
            Good communication is already hard enough within family and close friends, forget any chance of figuring a person out in comments section in blog. Though strong emphasis on words “all”, “never”, “always” is a strong giveaway.

          4. AndyD,

            I agree, it is time to drop it. We all have had something to say and now is the time to let go. I sure am glad to have the input of a reasonable and level headed man. BTW sure miss Joey.

            I have heard about using these words, all, never, always and then I heard the word but.

            For your input. I try to consider all posts, I always try to be fair and I never want to be be unfair. I just used all 3 of your words. Please let me know what I am not getting in using these words or are you speaking in the context of lets say negotiating. Seeing another point of view and changing your view due to dialog and more info considered?
            I will look into this and if you can further explain I would appreciate. Thank you

          5. BTOV,

            By strong emphasis on word “all”, “never”, “always” as giveaway I meant samples like following:
            – ALL women are manipulative
            – a woman will NEVER hit a man
            – in an abusive marriage, it is husband who is ALWAYS abuser
            – if a person is seeking help from psychologist/counselor, then that person MUST be victim.
            or some variant of above. Even a prefix of “almost” as in “almost always” doesn’t dilute the meaning much.

            I never suggested that we all must always avoid using these words. 😉

          6. And since hinting etc does really communicate well on a blog. So, let me say that Snidism commented “Reality is that almost ALL women are personality disordered and manipulative in a way that any man with the same behaviour would be considered insane.”

            Above statement contains two diluting parts “almost” and “in a way that any man with the same behaviour would be considered insane”, but it doesn’t change the meaning by much. So, I will disagree with that statement. Either Snidism should be ignored, or he/she had bad experience with every women he interacted with and incorrectly generalized that to all women on planet, across countries and cultures.

            If I will be skeptic about any commenters on this page, it will only be Snidism, rest are normal with their own reasonably well formed and distinct personality.

      2. He says that almost all narcs are men, and that is his OPINION. Many people think otherwise. That’s all I said. I reject his lie that women are so nice. AND YES HE DOES PROMOTE THIS LIE, which is baffling being him a male.

        He just does it to appease to his public, who eventually are mostly females. I just said that I disagree and it is not a fact that most narcs are male, and the site ‘a shrink for men’ confirms – you tet a FEMALE psychologist saying narcissism now is 50/50 among men and women. And that too is an OPINION and a RELATIVE, not absolute assessment, because psychology and narcissism are NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE. You can’t force people to believe in anything! I AM FREE TO BELIEVE NARCISSISM IS MOSTLY WOMEN! it’s just a fucking opinion and point of view like HIS, OPINION AND NOT FACT, that narcs are almost all men. Oh, since Simon said it then that is the truth? False logic. Simon like anyone can be wrong on anything at any time. Narcissism itself is a construct, not a fact. All of paychology is OPINABLE CONSTRUCTS, not absolute scientific axioms at all.

        Now check out Simon’s reply to me. He is free to ban me as he likes, it’s his site. I mean, it’s in his power. Do that, Simon!

        but he is 1) acting afraid of the truth and annoyed I am expressing a point of view that counters his; 2) a ‘big square’ as I have seen someone defining him on under his book reviews; 3) behaving narcisstically and intolerantly. having zero tolerance for opposing views and MAKING THE EXCUSE OF ‘FORM’, which is obviously an excuse and diversion. 4) freaking out narcisistically, being intolerant to a differing point of view and demanding everyone bows down to his words as they were factual and undebatable, which they are not.

        I also said that his posts are ridiculously short and lack meat. This is a fact to me, people are free to disagree, I CALLED WHAT I SAW.

        Comment section here is a fucking cult, no more no less. Nobody with different views, all groupthink. Cult is the right word.

        That’s how I see it, and Simon can well ban me for that. So? YOU CANNOT TAKE AWAY MY FREEDOM TOT HINK I AM RIGHT AND OTHERS ARE WRONG. I WILL KEEP THINKING WHATEVER I OIKE, there is no solution to that. Arrigant people are idiots first and foremost, who dont adapt to THE REALITY OF LACK OF POWER ON OTHER PEOPLE’S MINDS. The non idiots at least. ONLY IDIOTS GIVE UO THEIR INDENDENT THINKING! I am thinking independently, this comment here is independence of thoughtand the other comments are mostly cultish groupthink! There is nothing special pr new about that, but since people are asking and Simon noticed…



        Simon and his cult are under the umbrella of christianity, which is a cult based on brainwashing factually, only an idiot doesnt know that. NOTHING NEW! the internet is based on agnosticism and atheism. CHRISTIANITY IS SHIT, AND THE INTERNET AGREES!



  34. Its probably wiser to stay out of this, but Eudoxia I have learned a lot from you. I take what I think is usable for me and discard the rest as it is not applicable for myself and my beliefs. I don’t see why this had to happen, if you detected an undertone you took issue with, why not discuss it instead of going on the attack? All discourse breaks down at that point. Nothing is personally hurting you here, only if you let it. You are one of the more prolific posters here and you have so much good to say, especially regarding your study of CD’s. I am sorry this happened, no disrespect to Michelle, she sounds like someone who has a good head on her shoulders as well.

    1. To All,

      I think all that has taken place recently is very unfortunate for all, especially, the newcomers. In circumstances like this it can leave a pall hanging over all of us. I think things needed to be addressed sometime ago and I am sorry I didn’t say more. None of us are more equal or less equal to another, no one person has all the answers and should command the floor of authority or make another feel less worthy to comment in fear of another poster demanding answers or dictating. This blog belongs to Dr. Simon and we are his guests.

      I have learned in this forum we discuss many things, we study many things and for many of us we study in-depth on the topic of CD. We are all students so to speak. Above all, we are all here by the gracious consideration of Dr. Simon to give us individuals who have been victimized by the CD an outlet and forum for learning, support and sharing with others and a voice.

      Dr. Simon has entrusted us with a very valuable gift and we must take care of it lest we lose it. I like to think of us as a family of sorts especially for many of those who have none and need a place to feel safe and respected. Many things said and done have been taken out of context and distorted in the past and now just recently, again. No doubt it will happen again, I hope with less consequences since we are having an open dialog.

      In stopping this from happening in the future I think we need to ask better questions, not demand answers, but ask. I think before jumping to conclusions which can reach paranoia, and rightfully so, considering many of the situations we have come from. But outright accusing and badgering is what we are ridding our life of, its not acceptable anymore, and of all places not here.

      From now on I intend to ask respectfully, for verification and rational in instances where I feel I don’t understand something or someone is being demanding, confrontational, combative or disrespectful. We need to always be mindful of being respectful of others in a considerate and kind way in which Dr. Simon treats us and I believe Dr. Simon has taught many of us in the Ten Commandments of Character. It is time for us to put these valuable lessons into practice. \

      In the past many of us came from environments where we were put on the spot, authoritatively questioned and I hate to say interrogated. Many times we do not need to answer another if we feel it is inappropriate or feel it isn’t anyone’s business. Again I stress our conduct should always rise to being one of dignity and respect for ourselves and others.

      I think there are a lot of undercurrents many of us are unaware of that have been at play here. I believe Dr. Simon is well aware of everything and is privy to what he feels he needed to do and say in the best interest of the blog and all concerned. I will inject this from all I read, Dr. Simon left the door open for Eudox and she alone decided to dismiss Dr. Simons correction, which he rightfully has the right to do regarding any of us.

      We must always remember this is Dr. Simons blog, a gifted resource for us to find refuge, knowledge and community. This blog is a reflection of his lifetime work, who he is and what he stands for for all the world to see. How we act, what we say, how we treat each other is on a world wide stage for all to see. Dr. Simon has gifted it to all of us and we must protect it andcherish it as I know of no other blog which radiates this kind of kinship and care.

      I think we can all see clearly what went on and what has been going on. I think in your hearts and guts you all know. With that being said I would like to take note of the excellent post by by Lucy. I think this post stands out for its simplicity and wisdom. Please take your time in reading it as there is so much depth of spirit in Lucy’s words.

      I would like to comment on the fact, Lucy may not be the most eloquent of writers, full of statistics, big words, fancy words, perfect acumen and medical terminology, paragraph after paragraph. Lucy will many times come across as blunt in her use of English. Please never underestimate her advice. This post is a masterpiece in all its simplicity. Lucy always writes and speaks from her heart and from this, you can count on her sincerity and integrity.

      Thank you Lucy, so beautifully written and healing. Now lets get back to the work of RESTORATION.

      Also, thank you Dr. Simon for the privilege to contribute to this blog.

    2. Kat

      Thanks for your comments and support. I saw several danger signs not unlike what I saw with another poster not so long ago. I was not disturbed, hurt or angered by this person whatsoever. It was very clear certain aspersions were being cast at another then later at myself. I spoke up candidly and asked the questions that needed to be asked to clarify without application of inuendo or aspersion casting – straight, simple questions. They were not answered the first time I asked and I was offered a diversion with more inuendo instead, necessitating asking again.

      In regard to the former poster here not so long ago who was subtly baiting and chiding others I attempted to subtly drop a few hints but only a couple of others picked up on this. This time I addressed the poster directly with valid questions. It has now been used to attack my character by application of innuendo casting further aspersions onto my character – this is smearing. Nor does this bother me – to me it’s obvious what is going on. Detractors no longer bother me simply because they have no power over me and their opinion of me has no bearing on who I am. They just end up telling me more about who they are in the process. The fact I am able to stand in my own truth without compromising my integrity serves as testimony to how much I have healed. So I do not see my experience as negative in any way and it was not the sole reason I made my decision.

      Much like Sydney I also feel this site has become over zealous on the religious side of things. While I respect other people’s beliefs I am not a Christian and it’s not a topic I wish to engage in constantly. Everybody has their own relationship to God and that is entirely their business. This site provides information on exposing CD and was the original reason I started to post here in the first place. I am quite confident I need no further information on how to recognise these people. Their strategies and tactics are very obvious to me. Nor do I need to discuss CD or other disordered people on a daily basis. This is the reason I am no longer going to contribute regularly kat. The docs comment was an affirmation that I needed to move on, nothing more. At this point in time I am more interested in other topics more aligned to my own spiritual orientation and understanding of life.

      Kat your support suggests to me you are more than capable of trusting your own inner guidance and are not afraid to speak your truth either. This is a credit to you, and I believe it is of critical importance. I know for one I will never allow myself to be disrespected or smeared or hand my power over to another ever again. This is not who I am. I have also learned that saying nothing to those we find questionable is never a good idea so best to speak up not put up. I would rather be wrong and apologise than be right and remain silent putting myself at further risk, either way we soon learn which is the case.

  35. To totally disengage oneself from emotion and feeling may be beneficial in some aspects of interrelationships, but to lose your heart and soul and emotions and empathy for others cannot be a good thing.
    We are all human, with feelings, most of us anyway, and words hurt, unless one has built a wall, a strong one.
    There are times when one does need to disengage from hurtful persons, going no contact, or trying one’s best to not let an emotionally abusive person harm them. But one also has to be careful to still have an open heart with those deserving of it, to let love in and to show love and care.
    I spent years hardened, for protection, because I wasn’t getting the love I needed and was being hurt. It was necessary.
    We need in our lives people who reach out to us when in need, and we need to learn to reach back, to learn to not harm those who seek support and help, to be gentle in some circumstances. Being fortright isn’t always necessary if it harms another.
    Especially on a site here where one seeks support, when one is feeling down already, care and attention should be given in responses to persons. Kindness goes a long way. Kindness is essential. It is in my world, anyway.

    1. AndyD,

      Thank you for explaining on how to express certain words. I just wanted to clarify as I have heard many professionals also recommending not using them. I agree with your explanation and will try to watch how I use these words. Great advise.

      A great saying to remember: “What I said is not what I meant and what I meant is not what I said.” I know this applies to me.

  36. Hi Michelle,

    Ran out of response room to your reply back to me. All I can say is now I am really confused. I don’t know what you mean and I don’t want to venture a guess as I might offend other posters.

    1. LisaO, Michelle,

      I think at this juncture we have had enough and like Andy so artfully stated We should let it go. I think wise words to heed. Lets let things calm down and address new comments as they come in. I think in time we will find out about Snidley, I think Dr. will know how to handle.

      LisaO, how are you doing with this weather, stress is a great activator for me, so is the wet weather. It is dismal today and a lot of misting rain. My furnace stopped working yesterday and can’t get the repair man in until tomorrow. It’s 50 degrees in the house. I do have some space heaters, though it feels damp. My TN flareup has calmed down.

      Speak of so many things going wrong at once, a dear friend of 63 just suffered a massive stroke. Its when things like this happen we realize not much matters except human life. He is an Empath and lets to many take advantage of him. Its sad because I can’t get through to him regarding taking care of himself vs giving all his life to others that do suck him dry.

      Its hard to know what to do, he has no insurance and I am sure with the massive hospital bills he will lose what he has. Its so sad to see someones life crumble before ones eyes. Ones health is everything, I know you understand this.

      Do you find April showers bringing aches and pains? Am looking at all the flowers are in bloom and then the grass will grow and my mowers are all broke. Sticks and debris from dead trees that must come down, yikes it will cost a fortune with 10 needing to be cut.

      A positive outlook a must, the birds are singing, my mom of 85 is OK, though she may come to live with me. I love my flowers and then I remind myself I am blessed with so much. I see the tiny heads of my herb garden plants and I think how I will use them this year. When we endure pain life takes on a whole new meaning. I hope you aren’t hurting to much.

      Hugs, I am told in time this to shall pass.

      1. Btov,

        So sorry to hear about your friend! He must be happy AND relieved to have a friend like you!
        I am feeling much better at the moment. Thanks for asking! This winter and last winter were just nasty though. I have had to increase pain meds and although I am not taking a strong dose they do affect me. They have a dis inhibiting effect that is great in some ways. I am less socially anxious now. But I have to be careful because I am not filtering my thoughts and feelings as thoroughly as I should with others. Today is a good day. But the day before yesterday I had to take even more to control pain, so yesterday should not have posted at all!
        Live and learn.My tolerance for most meds is low.
        Sorry to hear about the Tn flare! Happy for you that you are gardening and that it gives you so much comfort and joy.
        I am not able to garden but can still walk a little bit.
        Oh, the Psychopath was on a forum about the soul and the environment and how we need nature to enrich us spiritually.

        He is a spiritual guru of sorts. Very well camouflaged.

        1. LisaO,

          Thank you for explaining. Yes, pain is like living with something that affects us and has a mind of its own. I wouldn’t let your off days determine if you post or not. Just let everyone know its a difficult day, we will understand as several of us deal with pain issues. Sometimes it may just decrease the pain by having some else to think about.

          I am sorry you hurt so and have so many difficulties, many people just don’t understand.

          Gentle Hugs today…

  37. Btov,

    I appreciate your sentiments. At the same time I note the current social tendency now towards fundamentalism, be it political, religious, or interpersonal. The up side of this is people who are of this mindset don’t dismiss evil intent, altogether. The downside is…many tend to see it everywhere.

    It may seem cold and clinical to ask questions of new posters, regarding the dynamics of their family situation, but the intent is not always negative. It can help. Many of those attracted to this blog are Christian and broadcast it loudly.

    If part of their bad family blood revolves around what appears to be a tendency to sermonize, my antenna go up. Because sermonizing, quoting the bible, to gain leverage in any kind of dispute will ALWAYS backfire.

    It’s counterproductive to use Jesus as invisible back up in disputes. He wouldn’t approve. If the goal is open communication and a resolution of ongoing conflicts the bible might be gently used among the like minded, but NEVER as a battering ram.

    We should all be open to questions about whether or not we are dealing with garden variety screw ups, freaks, typically Narcissistic individuals (as products of culture) or people who are irredeemably evil. If they aren’t evil, there may be hope of restoration and resolution.

    Being born into a family of screw ups is like playing twister. It’s awkward, entangled and it’s hard to tell where one body ends and another begins. A schematic based on where your body is in relationship to all the others helps to untangle it all. Being questioned helps create that schematic.

    The idea that family are being cruel or playing a game ON you, deserves scrutiny, particularly when red flags appear. It doesn’t mean the apparent victim isn’t really suffering or that they deserve it. They don’t. They just have to learn how they were drawn into the game to begin with and what they are doing that may be helping to keep it in play.

    1. LisaO,

      You have said a lot in your above post for me to respond to in the appropriate way it should be answered. I will get back to it as you raise important points.

      For now I will say and this is me personally. I am not a religious person, although I was given a private religious education. During my life I have studied many religions and philosophers.

      I do not practice any man made religion, whereas I would prefer to say I am obedient to my creator and believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I am also Jew, (messianic jew) therefore my following and in part adhering to the teachings of the old testament. I do study the KJV. I also have an acceptance of Hinduism, and the beliefs of the American Indians. I also believe there is much that has been kept from us.

      However, non of it matters, it is about loving mankind, treating them with dignity and respect. I quote scripture where it expresses my beliefs and how I am a child of God. Since my earliest memories I have always prayed. Prayers is powerful, when I felt I had nothing left of me, Jesus was there and caressed me in his bosom.

      LisaO, I do know despair, I do know ultimate pain, I know ultimate loneliness, so many of these things I have lived and dealt with and all that time I could feel Jesus arms around me, he sends angels to protect his children. I have seen death stare me in the eyes 3 times in my life and the fear was lifted by being in the arms of Jesus.

      LisaO, when I was mauled by 2 Saint Bernards and if not someone coming with a broom to chase them off I would had died. I was transported to the hospital as I had severe nerve damage to my spine and was paralyzed. I was 105 pounds at the time. If not for my faith in Jesus I would not have lived. I seen another world which would take me time to describe, I could had went there and let go, but I had all these angels around me giving me strength.

      I was in the hospital for a month and I had not fear, the pain was unbearable, I wanted to die, the pain was not affected by the drugs, morphine and others. It was so unbearable, I prayed for death, but the angels said I must live. I thought of how Jesus gave his life on the cross and my pain was nothing compared to his. These thoughts kept me alive and gave strength to endure.

      I teetered between this earthly life and that of a place of indescribable beauty and when I let go for those brief moments I was pulled back by angels. I could hardly sleep due to the pain, it never left me, pain my constant companion. I got to know many of the nurses and docs, I keep a journal of these times.

      Lisa, it came to be the nurses would come and sit with me and would tell me their stories, I didn’t, mind as it helped take my thoughts off myself. It ended up I was being ever ones confidant and the stories and things that go in in hospitals. The personal emotional pain others carry but must conceal. I would pray with them and give them one of my angels, I would give one angel away and another would come.

      God gave me the give of being able to walk again although I have peripheral nephropathy and constant burning in my legs. This does not include the TN flareup I had last week. TN pain is the absolute worst. All this going on at the same time and I still took care of my MIL and disabled Sis. I was talking with docs for them while living this nightmare, I never told them I was in the hospital and what had happened. I give all credit to Jesus for giving me the strength to endure and care for others when I was so crippled. It was his strength.

      After being in the hospital for a month, I went home with the use of a walker. The docs said I would never be able to do a lot of things, I overcame and my mantra was Jesus I can. In 3 months I could walk with a cane, by his grace and my faith in Jesus I did it. Lisa without this enduring faith I would never had made it.

      Yes, I had my come to Jesus moment, I knew Jesus was real and it was He who saved me. At that time, I also, on a Good Friday layed it all at the foot of the cross, I gave it to Jesus. I gave him the dogs, the pain, the owners who kept the dogs and could had cared less if I died. I have never given them a thought, no fear, no anger, nothing. Jesus took it all, and I gave it to him from the start.

      LisaO, I still give everything to Jesus, I can only say what good there is in me comes from him, it is not of my doing. This is only part of my story, there is more.

      I pray for people who hate me, I pray for the CDNSP, while they are swearing at me, I pray they have a Come to Jesus Moment, whatever it takes. LisaO, truly for me Jesus and Prayer are my saving grace and it carries me to the next day.

      I have rambled and thank you for listening and caring. I will answer the above later, even if I have to bring it to the new topic, I know it is of concern and interest to you. I have JV’s in the family and they are indeed pieces of work.

      I hope you don’t mind retelling your story, I would appreciate it.

      We are Kindred Spirits

    2. LisaO,

      I will still answer the above with much thought in answering you.

      A quick but partial answer. When we have a new poster many times there is pertinent information missing from the story, also you may have questions which need answering in order for you to answer back. I think it has to do how we ask the poster for information. Instead of grilling them I think it is important to gently ask. For instance, “If you don’t mind my asking it would help to clarify” or If you don’t mind it would help if you can explain or tell me such and such??????

      I think in asking questions in a concerned, kind, caring way opens the door for a positive, frank dialog. Many come to the site fearful, confused, hurt and in pain and need to be treated in a gentle manner. If we know each other and have expressed help one can omit many of the gentle steps as we are familiar as newcomers are not. However, we should always treat others in a dignified manner. Inquisitions are not acceptable and can cause harm.
      Also, correct me if I am wrong. There is a say: Familiarity breeds Contempt.

      In my humble opinion.

      I hope this helps.

      1. I’m with you here, Btov. I have to remember this and I appreciate you telling me, gently. It’s the golden rule. Do unto others.

  38. Just real quick, Btov. There is nothing wrong with professing your beliefs. Mine are close to yours. If people don’t like it, they can lump it! I’m not shy about broadcasting loudly what I believe in and why!

    It is the tendency some ‘Christians’ have to use it as a weapon or verbally abuse others with scripture I object to.
    I think having a strong belief in God (or some kind of benevolent force) is both practically necessary nowadays and also reflects reality — to me anyway!

    1. LisaO,

      Thank you for your response and am glad you feel the way you do. I think many of Gods scriptures are used as one is not able to vocalize or articulate for themselves what they think and use scripture. I use about being our brothers keeper and Do unto others. I know of no better way to say it and it is also the reason why I am the way I am.

      I do know many hide behind scripture and toss it like playing volley ball without truly living what they preach. Something like do as I say but not as I do. Another that comes to mind about these individuals is ” Having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. From these kind get away.

      People who throw bible passages around for the sake of covering themselves and sounding all knowing, trying to make one feel guilty or stupid, ones who profess there way is the only way. Are not what Christians are to me. I know when someone is sincere or not. I just had a run in with one that believes once saved always saved. I do not believe this is true, Jesus said you will know them by their fruit. Do they practice love and kindness for another, do they give of themselves and reach out and help, do they live the life and try to be Christlike, I find them Hippocrates.

      Above all things it is like the CDNSP, you can see the flags and your gut will warn you. I have Christian friends from all faiths and walks of life. If one is an atheist I still care for them if they are a good person. No one, really knows, in the end, it is God alone who will judge us, He know whats in our heart, not man.

      I hope this helps and welcome any other questions.

  39. Snidism,

    Since you disagree with the comments here I suggest you contact Dr. Simon and make your complaints known to him.

  40. A few months I have been paired with a co-worker. Before being paired with this co-worker I was warned by other co-workers that this person I would be working with is trouble and I best be on my toes!

    Only took a couple days working with this co-worker I found out this person did not tell the truth very much. Several times I confronted this co-worker not being truthful.

    I went to my supervision over this and all my supervisor told me to do was to ignore it and work as a team member with this co-worker. Several occasions this co-worker would actually cry to supervision that all accusations were not true and unfair, even though many other co-workers stated otherwise.

    Determining supervision was of no use to me concerning this matter I decided to just distance myself from this co-worker as much as possible even though I had to work with the co-worker.

    Lately now I have been temporarily assigned to work with someone else due to a personal medical condition of their co-worker. I was relieved at first that I was away from a co-worker I was having problems working with and within a week I realized this new temporary co-worker was not much different. This new co-worker I soon realized was the type that pretty much was the “boss” and to do it their way. Now I have felt bullied by this new co-worker. I have a supervisor and my supervision told me that my “boss” is my supervisor and not my new temp co-worker. And this co-worker was told just that as well. Now this temp co-worker has been the silent type and won’t even talk to me. Feeling hurt or just part of a manipulation trait?

    I finally decided to go to labor relations a few days ago. Had mixed feelings on that before I did go. The outcome of going to labor relations is that supervision has decided to switch people around. What is that suppose to accomplish? Anyway, I found out yesterday I will be working with both co-workers come Monday!!!

    Out of the fryer and into the frying pan???

    Do I quit and look for another job, just deal with it, or go further up the chain? HELP

    1. Monte D.

      Oh awful. Can you work with these two for a couple of days, carefully document what they are doing and then go higher up? Office politics is complicated so I don’t know if I am the best person to advise you. Maybe someone like Lucy will have a better idea.

      Best wishes, Monte, and have a nice Easter.

    2. Monte D.

      It is better to raise voice. Go further up the chain, if at supervisor level things were not heard.
      Simply ask for reassignment, so that you do not work with those two co-workers. One need not strongly justify such request, other than assertion that you cannot work with those, and forced setting will not turn out well for anyone.

      Wait for sometime for response, and then quit.
      Depending upon company culture, your request may not be heard. In that case, working in that company was probably not right for you anyways.

  41. To: Everyone who has replied to me. Thank you for your replies, kindness, advice and to Lisa for the apology. I appreciate each one of you more than you know! I don’t know what you have all encountered in life so I’m not sure if can understand this. From my perspective and life experience not only has kindness towards me NOT been the norm to receive from others but kind advice kind replies or ever APOLOGIES!!!
    I’ve not been defended or protected much either in my life. I’ve sought steady counseling for 5 straight yrs in my life, listened and applied the teachings of great pastors on the radio for the past 32 yrs. I’m not nuts and it’s been confirmed! Haha! I know that is not funny to some as it truly hurts to be treated poorly by manipulative loved ones. So again thank you to each of you for your replies. I’m glad I found Dr. Simon’s page and this forum!

    1. Lydia, when you say you have not been defended, protected, that was my experience growing up as well. I feel like I raised myself, and I didn’t have the tools to raise myself. I grew up with a very poor self image which a CD latched onto and furthered the problem. I can continue the mending process as well and continue to quit telling myself a lie and believing a lie, and believe in the truth of what God tells me I am thru His grace. Happy Good Friday!

    2. Lydia,

      Thanks for accepting my apology. It was sincere. Not being able to sincerely apologize is a sign of weakness. I find that what a lot of people do is apologize but then in the same breath say something negative that neutralizes their apology.

      Sometimes it is subtle enough, we just go, “huh?” It’s not as easy to get away with in print. You will find the odd poster posting here who uses these techniques not knowing they are pretty transparent to those who have been manipulated. They don’t usually hang around for long.

      You’ve no doubt been exposed to all of this and a bundle more. Your family sounds like a complete nightmare. And whether they are technically malignant narcissists or just nasty individuals, the net result is the same. My siblings are varied in temperament but the one thing they share in common is their care and concern, if there at all, is shallow. My older sister’s apologies aren’t barbed, they are just so inadequate to the damage she has done. And you are always left wondering with people who exist in a materialistic and superficial reality how deep their apology goes. You also wonder what the essence of apology means to them and are they even equipped to understand the depth of sorrow you are in, if they are lacking depth themselves?

      My older sister is conscientious and like my mother is an extreme extrovert. I wonder if people who have this kind of personality are more prone to being kind of empty inside. When they apologize, is it to alleviate guilt, smooth things over, or is it done as a social robot whose ‘humanity’ requires they deliver an apology once in a while, without actually fully understanding what they have done.

      My sister apologized for one of a series of obnoxious behaviours going way back. She hasn’t made amends, because she doesn’t get that the degree of damage she inflicted willy nilly requires more than 2 minutes on the phone.

      If you are going through more pain than I have felt from family, Lydia, it is no wonder you are so ill. And after describing in more detail, I understand much more fully. Thank you for your patience.

      We are here for you.

      1. Lydia, and All,

        Lydia, Many of us have been here for years, those of us who have stayed truly care about our fellow man. Sometimes we are in error of how we come across and LisaO is a lovely caring person. I hope we all get to know you better and likewise you will get to know us. I hope we can help you fill in those gaps with validation and knowledge.

        I am posting a link from Counseling Resources written by Dr. Simon on :
        What Real Contrition Looks Like

        I would encourage all who are wondering what a true apology is and what it entails. Lydia I would also encourage you to read other topics in the archives of this blog that address this subject matter. I believe you will find many of the answers you are looking for.

      2. Thanks again Lisa for your apology! I do accept it. Yes, I hear you about family not apologizing adequately enough. I’ve read the book When Sorry Isn’t Enough. It’s quite good at explaining why it sometimes isn’t enough. I’ve used the format written in it to talk about a hurt created by a loved one, not asking for an apology but asking them if we could talk about why they felt they needed to do that to me. Some are quite the doozies and would put a sane woman over the edge if not for the Lord’s help!!!
        I recently spoke with a sibling and spelled out 2-3 of the hurts that were quite recent. Not wanting to “overload a narc” with decades of abuse which by the way I’ve periodically tried to address. She promptly told me she would write it in a letter to me!?! She was wanting me to have her and an unmarried male over for a house guest this summer. I told her I couldn’t based on my convictions. (She claims to be a Christian as do I) I’m not trying to be above her, or better than her. I’m older by 10+ yrs and I can see how each of our families has literally become relationship anorexic as a result of sexual sin in our core families. I am working on reversing that in my own family for 30 yrs now. It’s not easy and even within Christian circles my stance on things is frowned upon. I get mocked for it all the time. (One of the reasons we all do not see each other at all) Thanks for listening to me and for all sharing their stories. It is comforting to finally be surrounded so to speak with like minded people as well as people with manners. You all don’t know how rare you are in my interactions!!!

  42. I recently had further contact.

    Just a phone call, right?

    When I made the comment that all I need in my life were basics, things she enjoyed for herself.

    “Don’t compare yourself to me!”

    Now, I understand what was meant. That she would never make the same mistakes I have, as she’s so much better, she just I don’t know, is so much better than I am, right?

    When I sat and thought about it, I realized she was right, not for the same reasons.

    I can’t compare myself, because I am not my mother and I’m putting my money where my mouth is. My inheritance is dependent on my brother managing it for me, due to my “mental problems” (!). One final dig from the grave? Keep your money.

    I am buying life insurance and my sister’s kids are beneficiaries, divide a total of $60K between the three of them (a small policy from work, one I am getting on my own).

    No one manages it for them. Part of me hopes they waste it, there is a financial lesson there too.

    I’m not her, and I’m putting my money where my mouth is.

    I grew,up and for too long, bought her 411 on my father, who before AA, wasn’t much different, those years are lost, but these are not.

    1. JC, how do you feel about going NC with your mother? I am not suggesting it, do whats in your heart, but I suggest that you look at this from a new perspective if you are to survive her abuse.

      1. The attempt is always made, I simply found that when someone wants to pick a fight (See above, Snidism) they find a way to do it. My mother is no exception.

        I don’t have an issue putting my money where my mouth is, I also am doing that because I want to.

        The only thing I can do when dealing with her, or any narc at all is, don’t give it any oxygen, or as someone here said, remind me not to feed the beast.

        I think I was also looking now, at the differences between us, rather than similarities, as can be an issue at first.

        I realized that before, all I was doing was what a narc teaches their children.

        Be like the one you love the best. A year ago, I was acting the part, the way I was raised to be.

        Now, I can see visible differences, the life insurance also is the most visible difference, so if she contacts me to remind me now that I am the polar opposite, I can live with that.

        1. And surviving the abuse, is also what I am already doing.

          Honor thy parents, doesn’t mean paying homage.

          With this one, no easy answers in contact, but do I seek out the abuse, no. I walk away, and now, speak up when I feel it’s not appropriate. When that is leaps and bounds, and is with someone determined to pick a fight.

          And when it comes to validation, I don’t go there looking for it.

          1. Don’t know if I should still respond, Dr. Simon has moved to the next subject. I will just say, I watched the video, I really liked the first 15 minutes of it, that was my experience as well. I am glad you have been moving forward, I have found for myself it takes a long time to overcome those feelings of unworthiness from childhood. Lots of wrong beliefs to untangle. In my family those who were the favored ones are still acting the part, as if they are the only ones who count, and excluding those from the family who were not favored. They are having an Easter dinner, guess who was not invited. I am a grown adult though, but it still hurts.

          2. KAT, JC,

            If it helps I would love to cook up a storm and invite all who haven’t a place to go. I am home alone too. I am happy for the reason I celebrate it otherwise it is another day.

            I first got to visit my friend who suffered a massive stroke. He has been in the hospital now for almost a month and has lost so much weight. I stayed for 3 hours and was glad to see me. He can’t talk hardly move or even face gestures.

            So I will go sit with him again. When I know I am having a pity party I realize how blessed I am. It can always get worse, extremely worse, I know feel grateful for what does afflict me.

            I just know if they move him to an acute care nursing home he may die, the care in those facilities are atrocious. I don’t know if I have it in me but am mulling over asking the family to let him come to my home and they can send therapists to my home. A big decision and responsibility, I am praying on it and trying to weigh also what is best for me.

          3. JC. I hope you aren’t alone this Easter and that if you are you are happy and having one heck of a great meal!

            Kat, you too! You have children so I hope all is well where they are concerned and that you have a wonderful time together!

          4. JC, I am so sorry to hear of your pain from abuse your family is inflicting on you. You’ve got it right about not seeking validation from them. I too often thought about what does it actually mean to Honor Your Parents. I’ve heard many pastors talk about this. Thank God many pastors are finally recognizing not all parents behave in a way that are honorable.
            In my heart I have found ways of honoring my parents without even speaking to them. They are both gone for sometime now. My parents were both very cruel to me as well as abusive physically. I honor them sometimes by just saying that was wrong mom, what you did was just flat out wrong. Same with my dad. I think this is called a rebuke.
            JC, I’m praying for your healing!!! Keep posting you are well!

  43. Btov and all,

    Happy Easter! I am so sorry you are without family for Easter, Btov, but you are making the best of it. And it is amazing that you would even contemplate looking after your friend. Helping others in significant ways that demand tremendous self sacrifice is something most healthy people won’t do! What better example of living your faith is that? Big hug to you!

    1. Lisa,

      Thank you, for your kind words, I am truly humbled. Life is not about materialism and ourselves it is about others, for with out others to share my life with, I am alone, truly alone. You are all very special and dear to me .

      Peace, love, and healing to all of you Kindred Spirits past and present. And may this blog along with all, Dr. Simon and his family be blesses.

      Again, thank you for your kindness.

      1. Happy Easter BTOV, Lisa and all. I agree BTOV, when we get to feeling down, it is always good to see a bigger perspective. Counting our blessings as they say. BTOV, what a blessing to your friend to have you there, that’s when you know who your real friends are.

  44. My father manifested the most highly character disordered personality of anyone I have ever known. He was a disturbing combination of all the traits of the Dark Triad Personality, narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism. He built a huge financial empire by exploiting and manipulating others. People were nothing more than pawns used to accomplish his objectives. He was driven, obsessed with success, and became a master at deception. He was an expert in identifying a person’s core wound (Achilles heal). If he could’t find one, he would create one, setting up the opportunity to morally manipulate even the best charactered individuals.
    Denigration, belittlement, isolation, fear, and lawsuits were the tools of his trade. He cultivated his “skills” in our family home, turning his children into weapons that would serve him. I was the one that got out, but I never really got away. He spent the rest of his life seeking vengeance against me for standing up against him, refusing to allow my mother or siblings to see me. “I know the people to hire if I want to get rid of someone,” he once said, firing a warning shot over my head. “Remember, I know where you are and what your doing wherever you are,” he threatened.
    Its not surprising that the most accomplished and deceitful manipulators become the most successful businessmen, amassing millions of dollars by deceiving and manipulating others. The “successful” psychopaths get others to commit crimes on their behalf.

    1. Molly, I hope you are ok, you sound like you are educated in this character disorder. These people should be sitting in prison, not being successful. Someone here described them as intelligent parasites, so true. They have a real knack for making it look like somebody else’s fault. So sorry you had a “Dad” like that. My Ex was a psychopath, not as smart as your Dad, but a psychopath none the less. I look forward to your posts, it sounds like you have quite a bit of knowledge about narcissism. All the best to you and Happy Easter if you celebrate it.

      1. Molly,
        I can imagine how scary that kind of father could be to live with. My dad was quite scary as well. Very abusive. I’m sorry to hear what you had to endure and still have to. It’s a lot to get well from when your out and everyone keeps themselves from you esp. when they are your family. We’ve been dealing with this in our families for over 40 yrs. now.
        I’m glad for you that you got out. What’s worse? Becoming like them because you stay. Keep reading Dr. Simon’s material it is so very helpful.

    2. Molly,
      For you to be able to stand up to this monster tells me that you’ve got strength, perseverance. To persevere that assault and still have our own independent self, wits about you, sensibilities, is something you should be proud of.
      Sounds like your father is Donald Trump, of the likes I’d never want to “take on”.
      You’re a survivor.
      I’d love to hear more from you, and hear how you’ve taken care of yourself, your mind, your spirit and heart through all of this.

    3. Molly,

      Was your father a gangster or sorts? I read the autobiography of Sharon Osbourne. I thought it would be kind of silly but it turned out to be just fascinating!

      Her parents were king Pins in the entertainment industry in England. Her dad ended up managing rock bands. It was astonishing to me how mobbed up that part of society was (and is!) At one point her father had a contract out on HER life. I can’t remember why but I think it involved blowing his cover. He and many other managers and agents made their riches by ripping off their clients directly, through accounting, or through tying them up in contracts that they jumped to sign, seeing it as a way to achieve some level of success.

      Anyway, Sharon Osbourne drove the point home to the rockers that they were being manipulated and stolen from.

      Very interesting book and it sounds like what you went through. I am so sorry you had to go through that.

  45. Thanks so much Kat. We become experts in our own healing as we come to accept that only we can chose how we respond to psychopathic personalities. I believe that a significant amount of psychopathy is adaptive (from a Darwinian evolutionary perspective). For example, studies show that individuals with sadistic traits not only derive pleasure from inflicting pain and suffering on others. The darkest personalities will escalate their damaging behaviours against a person who doesn’t fight back. In other words, demonstrating compassion in the face of aggression (a Buddhist teaching) is dangerous. The best thing we can do when faced with a person manifesting sadistic traits is to seek cover and run.

      1. Lucy,

        I have to agree with you on this one. To many times I turned the other cheek and it took me further down into the wolves den. I think I made it out in time, then I finally stood up and said ” NO More” and called it out for what it was. Defining ones reality, I don’t think so. When this happened I told them they were a “Liar” and then the sophisticated games began.

        Holding one accountable especially the CD individual always ends up in a triangulated mess of twisted lies. Not always easy to defend oneself when someone is so skilled at the game. No one whats to deal with the jerks and would rather give in then deal with them, that is really a big part of the problem. I know that it set me free from their sick hold and it was the best thing I ever did. It weakened me in many ways , however, the strength I gained will hold me against any onslaught as I fear not.

        Today, I surround myself with people who make sense and ones I can exchange ideas and differences without everything being construed into something sinister or something off handed being read into my words. Its an unhealthy and ugly way to live. “Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.”

        Nope, the other cheek will stay unscathed…………..

  46. Public executions and lynchings used to be regarded as family entertainment. It wasn’t just psychopathic sadists who derived pleasure from them. Enjoying the pain of others could be a trait that lies dormant in many of us until the right mixture of cultural acceptance and social and economic strain set the wheels in motions. And the ones who, for example, start the lynching process were likely psychopathic. The ones who joined in were expressing varying degrees of acquired sociopathy.

    When I read about the dark ages, I get the feeling that life was so nasty brutish and short, people couldn’t afford to develop their soft side, or have a great deal of empathy. It would have made life even more miserable. How did women cope when most of their children wouldn’t survive past childhood.

    After this happened a few times a person would harden and be literally afraid to get close. So even though we are living in an age of rampant narcissism, things could be worse!

    1. LisaO, I have a lot to say about this but right now am in the weeds.

      You and I go back a long way, so do several others and on this we can depend. We are a family of sorts and also a hive, a hive that works together and builds and flourishes. When we feel adversity to our hive, community, family whatever, we must be on guard. I think we need to be alert and protect the wonderful asset we enjoy.

      Peace and joy to all

    1. Lisa,

      There are a lot of undertones and workings at play here and my gut is gurgling.

      I detest lies and deceit. I also, despise the green toads full of poison that are so bloated with envy, jealousy and a love for destruction they will stop at nothing to destroy the innocent and the very person they themselves can never be.

      Yes, there is a connection in all this and LisaO. do not be deceived and keep your heart and all of your senses on high alert. Do not be deceived we have been through this before….. and it will be what you never expected……

      Many blessing and may truth prevail…….

  47. Btov, I concur.

    You and I have both come a long way, been through a lot and we, too are still able to say, “Aishiteru.”

  48. BTOV/Lisa

    “Aishiteru” means I love you in Japanese…………………I think that handle was not in accord with the entity posting under it.

    My questions raised recently were valid questions and non threatening, no aspersions were cast I was requesting clarification of those questions because they were open ended and loaded questions.

    I know what I said and I won’t have somebody else twist what I say around and reword it in order to turn it into something else no matter how subtle. This was done to Lisa as well which is why I spoke up then it was done to me. I will no longer allow another person to mess with my reality by twisting things then trying to have me agree with the twisted version. Sorry not this little black duck. I could see this happening and did something about it.

    I did not come to this site to be gaslighted – I’ve had entirely enough of that. Aishiteru used the same style, the same line of questioning, same casting of aspersions first she went for JC then Lucy. This isn’t right and I initially dropped subtle hints ie Bogarts. It didn’t work. Andy knew what I was talking about and I’m pretty sure you did too BTOV. Forever the diplomat you are BTOV but it is sometimes not in our own self interest protection wise. Sometimes we have to be just forthright.

    A normal person can answer a direct question no worries – who can’t? Who uses evasion tactics? Normal people want to settle differences and clear confusion and seek resolution. There is only one type of person I know of who wishes to use confusion to their advantage.

    Each and every one of us have dealt with CD. All of us have been manipulated and gaslighted. Important question to ask ourselves is. How many times have you found yourself explaining your behavior or explaining yourself in lieu of not being asked a direct question? This is KPI in regard to what we have standing in front of us. Another one is when people cast aspersions onto our character – this can be and often is very subtle. This is another suggesting we are this or that without us saying any such thing and in fact quite the opposite. This is when we feel we need to vindicate ourselves in lieu of sufficient evidence being brought against us. This is when we need to fight to create decency which is what we already have, we should not have to defend our own morality when it is under attack by another questioning it. This is being slimed folks.

    This was a big one for me on both occasions where I was under direct attack. The above was the PRIMARY modus operandi. My daughter, former b/f and the loony lover and the woman he tried to triangulate me with exactly the same with my brother long before them followed by the smearing. It’s major gaslighing/crazy making.

    I have developed sufficient antibodies against this virus now. My boundaries are firmly established, if anybody tries to cross a red line with me I will hold them to account and I will not mince words. Go back for walk down memory lane and see how often you did that? You will probably find it was pretty constant.

    Also each CD in every case claimed the absolute highest pillar of moral decency and integrity when they were standing right in front of me demonsatrating the exact opposite while trying to grind me to a powder. Well I say no more.

    1. Maybe I lived with a CD too long, but my thoughts were, what if someone studied this blog for a while, got to know those here, came on to pick a fight by hitting someone in the ego – (we all have one), getting a rise out of them and getting others on their side, then proclaiming they were not going to post anymore because of the poster targeted and then came back on to cast aspersions. That would be a win. Maybe I’m just paranoid and if that’s not the case I am full of it and I apologize. That’s something my ex would have done. Truthfully I thought you Eudoxia, went on the attack first without substantial provocation and she had to defend herself, but the defending of herself is what got me to start wondering. I think we need to give the benefit of the doubt before assuming the worst – and I am speaking to myself as well.

      1. kat
        I lived with a CDN, the grandiose, malignant type for over 25 years and he did pick fights, would never admit fault, ever, so an apology was always out of the question. I’d walked one egg shells to avoid confrontation for much of my life. Why would anyone want to be screamed at by a CDN for merely asking a question, then have the whole situation turned around to look like I’m stupid or crazy or at fault for what I’d called him out on? Confronting a person such as this is futile and a waste of time. I should have left the man early on in the marriage, but I didn’t, so now that I’m finally rid of the leech it’s time to heal, to restore what I’ve lost, to rebuild my life. I need to learn to stand up to controversy without shying away because I fear being verbally abused and been rebuked by crazy talk.
        At this point, several posters were involved in the controversy, things said, all have their point of view as to why they felt or did what they did. It’s gotten too convoluted to me now to make sense of it all. But what I do know for sure is when I see rudeness and blame shifting, I know it when I see it, I know it immediately.
        Aishit attacked me a while back, my character, at THE DAY I was freed from the X CDN. Instead of joy, she attacked my character. A CD will lose his mask eventually for all to see. And when you see it, there is no denying it.

        1. Lucy,
          I didn’t know it was for that long. It really messes with your head. There was a new “friend” of my ex’s at one time and he told the Ex he should kill me – I think this guy was some type of drug dealer and thought I would report him. Anyways – that guy told me he could track me anywhere, I couldn’t hide from him and when I left my EX, I saw a van similar to what he had and I was convinced he was following me. Needless to say I had a lot of paranoia at that time. Much better now. I agree on the confrontation – waste of time and energy – you did the right thing. I think people like Aishit just wait for the most vulnerable moment to spew their venom. What a way to live your life!

          1. kat
            You weren’t paranoid. You had reason to be careful and were looking out for your well being. The “friend” was dangerous. The pscho planted the seed of fear, and how were you to know when/if he’d strike?
            Aishit pounced and Dr. Simon pounced her right off the site.

        2. Lucy, you are so right that sooner or later a CD or Narc will show their true colors. We like to use the smoker in our yard to make all kinds of meats and fish. I refer to “catching a CD or Narc” now at their own game as SMOKING THEM OUT. One of their traits are to flatter us and make us feel loved or wanted. (Normal human desires right?) They turn these normal desires into a knife in your heart for what looks like to us as no apparent reason. As Dr. Simon says, in their thinking there is a reason for them to do this. Position, position, position! My relative recently started texting me all the time starting around Sept. Thought she was making progress in identifying with me as she was in pain.
          All of a sudden she says she’s coming in for a visit later this year. Wants to stay at my house with a male boyfriend. Doesn’t ask though if she can. Reason being she’s been abusing me since oh I don’t know when!!! This is the child I had to start raising at 8 1/2 because my mom who “loved kids so much” wouldn’t get up to feed her or change her. (Mom didn’t work outside the home)
          Anyway, back to smoking out the narc…I did not invite her. I waited a week and texted her back, kindly asking her if we could talk about some of the things she did to me at my sons wedding back 4 yrs? I told her some of the things she had done and said and told her I’m not mad at you I’m hurt. I’m wondering if we could move towards a more honest open loving relationship where she tells me why she wants to hurt me. Is it because I’ve hurt you? I’ve asked her 3 times in her adult life to please just talk to me about it.
          Her response this time like all the others was to tell me she can’t answer all these long texts, so she’ll write me a letter to explain why you’re not the only one being treated poorly??? That was the first week of March. I’m not surprised I haven’t received a letter yet, and I’m also not setting myself up for her to pull something else on me. I call it smoking them out because I know I’m being lied to. She went to my son and asked him to receive her when she visits. He then started up with the continued bullying.

          1. Now the son is bullying you? You’re doing a good job standing your ground. Sorry you had a poor childhood and you had to be the adult. That right there certainly affects one’s outlook on life.
            So your sister isn’t up to the task of speaking openly of past hurts. She doesn’t want to be confronted with what she’s done? I could understand putting it all in writing, but then she hasn’t done that either.
            Family members – they usually are not people who we’d choose to be our friend. But then there they are, in our life anyway, until one finally gets fed up and gives up trying (or being hammered).
            Sounds to me like you’re doing just fine handling the sister. “smoking them out”. That’s a good one.

          2. Lydia,
            Keep the wood piled up on your smoker, looks like you’ll need it. I have health problems from this sort of thing and I like to remind others to take care of their health and well being. Sounds like you know the tricks that are played. It would be disappointing thinking the sister is reconciling in some way, only to realize its a setup. Her loss completely.

      2. kat

        Thanks for you response kat and your candor. Firstly I don’t consider asking questions is going on the attack. I think it’s prudent particularly with open ended and loaded questions. There is a vast deal of difference between asking questions and attacking another’s character or playing mind games via innuendo which I have had ample of. There has been too much of this before here which is a good part of the reason I won’t be contributing as I did before. I meant what I said in my reply to the doc word for word.

        I have done enough research on CD now to be able to recognise them and their tactics now. My concentration is on the healing side now and not going into further discussion on the disordered. Come a time we find what we need to know and move on. Nor will I be entering into any new topics with new comers. I am returning to my line of research and passion prior to being sidetracked by CD and in particular how we attract them. I am going in a new direction which is in reality back to where I left off prior to abuse.

        1. Eudoxia,
          I do see you as upfront, not a manipulator, not a game player and I saw what I thought was manipulative by the other poster. That was my gut. In addition the reply about Lisa’s post really hit me the wrong way. But I can see questions like that could offend someone as well – not trying to play the middle of the road but that’s how I feel, when in doubt I tend to let it play out and see where it goes, I believe on this blog, the truth will prevail. I very much hope you still post.

          1. Hi kat

            Once again thanks for your post and honesty. It’s one thing I respond well too – truth. I think above all else speaking our truth is paramount.

            I have been here for well over 18 months – I originally came here in a severe state of shell shock from 2 different situations one of whom was my daughter. I’ve spent the past 18 months trying to ascertain just what went wrong in this instance. It has led me down many different avenues and many people’s work to draw the conclusions I am coming to right now – but it has not finished yet.

            This latest interaction has brought me to a sound realisation. I did not come here to get involved with a social group. I came here to learn about CD and after having found myself involved within this social group and a few others who come and go on this blog I now realise the pitfalls.

            I’m at the stage where I am going to refocus on my daughter. I need various avenues to do this and above all I need honesty and candid opinions by people I trust. I am not prepared to waste my time with people who prefer nothing better to do than create controversy where this is none. However I had a choice whether to involve myself of not and made the wrong choice.

            My focus of attention is going to be re-directed and it won’t be on what somebody on here is or isn’t doing or is or isn’t – period. I am not going to go down this path because it is counter productive and is not taking me to where I need to be. And it is certainly not going to solve the situation I have with my daughter.

            I have taken steps already in this regard. I am meeting up with my psychologist friend at the end of the week. We both realise a lot of research in a certain area in early childhood development has simply not been addressed at all so we intend to do just that.

            kat I think nothing is by accident, everything happens for a reason and I accept that as part of our life lessons and soul path. As far as my spiritual beliefs go I will not interfere in another person’s free will choice in my book that’s a cardinal sin and has dire karmic repercussions.

            Also we can only control ourselves. We can’t control what others are or are not doing nor do we have any right to. We spend too much time worrying about what other’s opinions of us are. To be brutally honest another’s opinion of us should not matter to us and is in fact none of our business if you really think about it.

            I’ve learned many things on this blog kat but the biggest thing I learned came this week and as I go with the flow of life it’s led me to enter into a whole new phase of my life. So I see it as a positive thing. I will still come here from time to time but while I still am receiving notifications people are replying to my posts I feel obliged to answer. But I won’t be getting involved with anymore new comers. Once bitten twice shy.

      3. Kat,

        I would encourage you to reread the entirety of the postings. Instead place yourself in Michelles position (Shoes) as a new poster, just as much as you are. Read Dr. Simons response and then from there form your thoughts.

        There is a lot to be learned from this exchange.

        1. BTOV,
          With all due respect, I have read the comments over several times before I contributed. From what I see, two wrongs don’t make a right. There were several things said that my gut said was not right, but I will always give the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

          1. kat,
            The thing is, we can never have full proof. We have doubts but not the full-on certainty. Especially when dealing with someone else’s intent, we can only speculate and use our best judgment. We have to put together puzzles and make the determination, whether fully pieced together or not. And really we don’t even have to make a decision, we don’t have to have an opinion. We can sit back and watch things play out.

          2. The benefit of the doubt from my understanding is usually for the knew poster. We don’t know their stories or circumstances, if they are true, false or confabulation distortions of ones imaginations or whatever.

            Its not easy being a newcomer, let a lone then spilling ones guts and telling the world ones problems and pains. Many do no have the educated moxy many have or the know how to subtlety ask a question. We do know people have odd ways of expressing themselves and we know we are all unique.

            However, again, being at a graduated level of dealing with the CD and victims I can’t express enough that we set the agenda for treating ones with dignity and respect. We have the ability to ask, with kindness and a show of character how to point out to another how something is hurtful, how to point out in a kind way how something said makes us feel uncomfortable or how we would like to be addressed or if a given topic is closed for discussion since it upsets us.

            If we lose the ability to articulate these several points, it is no wonder a simple question can cause extreme chaos and discord. I would say I included, us seasoned posters should be held to a higher standard since we do know better.

            How can there be restoration of our sanity, when every word we say is dissected under a microscope of innuendos without us even speaking. I am for total Restoration and Restoration of Truth and the Dignity and Respect of Human Life are the beginning .

    2. I really appreciate you rising to my defence, Eudoxia. Your intentions are good and your intuition mirrors my own.

      In my own head, when I question someone in text, it’s with a gentler voice. I realize sometimes, in retrospect that it can come across as angry or yelling, if I don’t insert qualifiers.

      I see this as largely a text problem that everybody has to be careful with.
      I will also say that you are high spirited, feisty and a lot of fun and I haven’t detected narcissism, covert or otherwise in you.

      You were a bit abrasive with me a few times, but I called you on it without insulting you. Then I went over my own back and forths with you and caught myself communicating in a way that was contributing to it. I made an effort to fix what I was doing and things evened out, Mate.

      I don’t regard Dr.Simon’s confronting you as an invitation to others to throw you under the bus. You are an amazing and strong person and I appreciate your contributions.

      1. Hi Lisa

        Thank you for rising to my defence in this instance as well. I certainly saw a different attitude in some of the posters here after the doc had his say and that’s perfectly okay it’s his site, it’s his perception of it. I stated my truth back and left it at that.

        As I said to kat it has however opened up an opportunity for me to take up where I left off and refocus on where I should be. What has really come to my attention is just how much people are swayed by other’s opinions of others. Something that other people wont allow under any circumstances and that’s good because it shows they are solid within themselves.

        I trust my own inner knowing and inner guidance system and I can’t be swayed by others opinions. I take and form my own. At the end of the day we can only trust ourselves. Aside from that, we can only control ourselves and I am never going to allow myself to get involved in something that is none of my business again. Because we have no control over others or outcomes if that’s what we choose to do, then the consequences fall on our head. I am putting my foot down in this respect in life in general.

        I’ve also come to realise that getting involved in others business and woes in life often leads us to more pain in our own life. Even if we have the very best of intentions it can go belly up in an instant based on another’s faulty perceptions of our intentions and who we are. Subsequently we become the elephant in the room that we have, by our very own hand created.

        Yup like you Lisa I know I can be very forward at times, that is who I am and I do try to be diplomatic. Having come from a business background in a contract capacity as in having to deal with contracts I believe in clear unambiguous language. It is best to be very clear and this especially applies to the disordered in life.

        I know we have also had our tassles over time but we always worked it out and I have often found some of my most rewarding relationships have been established under these very circumstances. If I am wrong I am able to apologise no problem. As I’ve said before when it comes to certain people I’d rather be wrong and have to apologise than risk self harm by but not seeking clarification. I learned that lesson with my ex b/f she was one of the most covert types out there along with my daughter now they were a dynamic duo of destruction! But can I recognise their tactics now – they literally jump out and punch me in the face and they are all the same.

        I can clearly understand how others not having been involved with the covert types can miss them. Overts are easy to spot you literally can’t miss them. More often than not coverts/overts aside most people just really need to take a good long look at themselves in the mirror before they cast judgement on others. When I am being accused of something I know is not in me at all I accept it as a confession – a reflection of their own shadow being cast onto me nothing more. I just think ok thank you very much for that.

        And as I’ve said since the beginning of coming here MAN KNOW THYSELF. That way we know who we are and above all who we are not. That way nobody can have power over us and it’s truly amazing how much power we end up giving away to covert manipulators when we are unaware of what they are doing. I was a sitting duck in that property I bought with me ex besty and they ate me alive. But I knew myself well enough to know something was very wrong and it wasn’t me. I only just got out in the nick of time – luckily I had my psyche friend who had my back cause nobody else did.

        Yup I’ve been through it alright Lisa but I can promise this – never again and thanks for having confidence in me. Muchas Gracias my friend :-

  49. I detected nothing nasty or startling from Michelle’s posts. However, I did sense a nasty undertone to Eudoxia’s questioning and re-questioning, which appeared to be abrasive and confrontational. I, frankly, did not understand the necessity to be so harsh with Michelle. She did nothing that I could see to set off angry posts. Eudoxia, your posts to Michelle were rude and sounded like you were inviting an argument. They were derogatory and belittling and insulting to her.
    I can immediately sense aggressive behavior and will avoid it all costs, but shouldn’t have to here, on this site. This is where people come to learn and heal, hopefully. Asking questions in a demanding manner is aggressive. Eudox you seem to enjoy a fight, and my saying this is from past posts where you announce you’ll put on orange lipstick to look for Narcs to give them a piece of your mind, or to watch them squirm. It’s as if you’ve gone on the offense, and look for encounters.
    Dr. Simon’s article speaks of calling people out on what they do. This is my calling out what I’ve seen. It’s my opinion. It’s what my gut tells me, and nowadays I do trust my gut.

    1. Lucy,

      I am not going to defend your accusations. I would suggest you go back and re-read the posts about the orange lipstick. They were 6 months ago – around August/September possibly earlier. I certainly do not recall saying anything of the sort. If it bothers you perhaps then would have been the right time to mention it not 6 months later where it bears no relevance to what has occured recently.

  50. Michelle posting her negative opinion (about my behavior with a friend) didn’t bother me the first time. The second and third time after I provided more and more detail felt a little rude to me, particularly as the episode revolved around the death of my husband, still relatively recent.

    Repeatededly responding in the negative to a fellow poster indicates to me the responder may be trying to score a win — that winning might be more important to them than listening.

    In this case her responses encouraged Sydney to respond negatively as well, which felt awkward.

  51. Thanks so much Kat. We become experts in our own healing as we come to accept that only we can chose how we respond to psychopathic personalities. I believe that a significant amount of psychopathy is adaptive (from a Darwinian evolutionary perspective). The worldview inherent in the mindset of a psychopath is “the world is out to get out,” and “get them before they get you.” After being admonished to “forgive my trespassers,” and “have compassion for their suffering,” I have come to a clear understanding that compassion and forgiveness are foolhardy. An essential attribute of character disordered individuals is that the manifestation of sadistic traits. Studies show that sadists not only derive pleasure from inflicting pain and suffering on others, but will escalate their damaging behaviours against a person who doesn’t fight back. In other words, demonstrating compassion in the face of aggression (a Buddhist teaching) is not just dangerous: it is manifestly absurd. The best thing we can do when faced with a person manifesting sadistic traits is to seek cover and run. Rummaging around their damaged souls hoping to “evoke” a Christ-like consciousness is folly. Moreover, digging around tombstones searching for a trans-generational trauma motivation for their behaviours will never heal the wounds they inflicted against us or anyone else.

  52. When my father blew up, he was sincerely angry and there was always the probability he would come running at you to deliver some discipline. I mean full on chasing you all around the house in spittle flecked rage until he caught you. What a weirdo. It definitely wore me down but strangely it didn’t scare me that much unless I felt my life was seriously threatened.

    If I’d ever gotten the impression it was all an act, it would have been harder to process.
    The hardest part would be knowing that someone who is supposed to love and support you is intentionally creating drama and hurting you for their own amusement. That would be a crushing realization.

    Our culture, with its admiration of power and wealth encourages a relaxed attitude about bullying where it is least likely to be reported, where people are entirely dependant, one way or another.

    It makes me wonder what’s next…the Hunger Games, starring the current POTUS? He is one of these types….Let the Games Begin!

    1. LisaO
      Isn’t that something, him chasing you but it not all that alarming to you. We get used to living with weird stuff. What is our daily crazy crap to someone else would be alarming. Yes it would be creepy if that were an act. And mean.
      When I think back about some of the full blown lies and plots the X had done it is freakish. For him to think it up, say it to me, keep going with the lie, it’s scary. When I finally did file for divorce I found out so many things he’d been doing in his double life that I did feel scared of him, because I didn’t know him anymore, he was weird, maybe crazy, I don’t know . . . . but it got scary. He couldn’t be in his right mind to make up big lies, live a secret life, it’s crazy. Then he’d turn around and try to convince me that I’m the crazy one, and to tell everyone who would listen I’m the crazy one.
      Our current POTUS is dangerous CDN. It’s almost as if I’m watching a sci-fi movie.

  53. My hope is that Michelle does not leave this site. I hope Jean is still here.
    This is the last past we want to feel attacked at. Words and confrontations need to be chosen carefully, as LisaO states. Some of us come here seeking knowledge and support, so you don’t kick a person when they’re down. My X did that. When weak he’d keep kicking. He had no conscience. I could have kicked him when he was down and he’d have possibly killed himself and I’d have been better off. I know that sounds sick, but it’s true. But I’m human and couldn’t watch him suffer. But you should have seen him kick my *** when he got back up. Came back to life with a vengeance, worse than ever before.

  54. Lucy, I could never have gone through what you did. I’m serious. As tough as my childhood was, my family for the most part didn’t manipulate or gaslight–ever. And my father as boneheaded, prone to fits of rage as he was, also had some very good qualities.

    Trying to escape from him lurching around the dining room table was nerve wracking but it had a sporting feature to it, too. I was very much a tomboy and a daredevil when I was younger.

    I can remember looking him square in the eye as a 13 year old and telling him that he may win the ocassional battle with me but he would never win the war. LOL. I really needed a parent not a military adversary but was up for it if required.

    But someone gaslighting and leading a double life…oh man…I couldn’t rise above it. I am aware of what I am capable of doing to maintain my sanity, after being intentionally mentally tortured by a sadist. It’s not pretty. I know you are supposed to turn the other cheek or run away somehow, but I don’t know if I could do that. It was the first time I have ever had a truly murderous impulse.

    My father? I was upset by him and angry but not that much, more just alarmed and a bit nervous when I was young. I still kind of loved him and I think he knew that. We were pals after I became an adult. Not super close, but had some good laughs and we tried to help each other.

    1. LisaO

      There were days when I was as they say in a dark place. Several days, weeks in fact. First there was the surprise he’d do such a thing as have a girlfriend (later to find out prostitutes). I was shocked. Then devastated. Betrayal is a hard one to take. Devastated for weeks, crying for weeks. I embraced the pain, felt it to its fullest, and then boom, I wasn’t hurt anymore, I was angry. Raging angry. That lasted a long time. There were surprises cropping up as I investigated. Financial losses. An unplanned pregnancy of my daughter. Two houses to sell while the shitbag lived in and trashed one of them, leading to having to sell at auction at a great loss. There was legal games played at a great cost to me. He eventually represented himself pro se, the disbarred lawyer he is. Finally in February the final strings attached to the marriage were broken and I’m glad to say that I’m rid of him.
      You would have made it through. You have to. But my health and spirit suffered tremendously. I couldn’t heal as long as he was there giving me grief through the courts and through home sale dealings. It really was unbearable but luckily I have a good job to go to every day.
      So now, my mantra is Restore and Rebuild. I can now do this now that I am solely responsible for myself.
      I don’t want drama, I don’t want troubles. I want to be surrounded by positivity and am ready to enjoy the good life again. I’ve read Dr. Simon’s books and am well versed on his teachings of CDs, and I’ve lived it, live with a full blown CD, grandiose Malignant narc. I’ve grown.
      I am not what is referred to as “narc bait”. Yes the X was overt narc, and I’m sure there are plenty of covert narcs out there who would love to get ahold of me for financial reasons, but believe me, I will never even entertain the thought of marriage again. I do have a wonderful, caring, kind, gentle, attentive BF who has gone through this mess with me, always supportive and non judging. I don’t seek out jerks. I know a BS person when I encounter one.
      I’ve fought hard for what little I’ve got left of this sham of a marriage and not about to lose anymore. I’ve got no room in my life for nasty people.
      Anyway I have persevered. It was tough but I did it. And I thank all of you for your kind support.

    2. LisaO
      Your story of childhood and your dad remind me a little of my sister. She was a tough one! She was not easily intimidated, not even by what I thought then was a giant of my dad. Tall with a booming voice.

  55. Eudoxia,

    I will get back to you by email as soon as I can. We have a lot of interests in common, besides CD people, so it will be lovely to explore those more together. And yes, it’s true for me too. The people I am most prone to clash with initially I often end up good friends with. We often have key things in common, chiefly our personality type!

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