Revering Truth: Character’s 4th Command

No one develops sound character without a deep reverance for the truth. Unfortunately, we humans have an incredible capacity to deceive. And it’s bad enough that we sometimes lie to each other and about each other. What’s even more insidious, however, and ultimately very detrimental to our character formation, are the many ways in which we are capable of deceiving ourselves.

In my upcoming book with Dr. Kathy Armistead, tentatively titled The Ten Commandments of Character: How to Lead a Significant Life, I discuss how crucial instilling a deep regard for the truth in children is to their character development. Here is what years of experience working with character-impaired individuals has taught me is the fourth “commandment” of sound character development:

Revere the Truth;
It truly will set you free.

Revering Truth

Honesty and integrity are the necessary antidotes to the all-too-human tendency to cheat, take short-cuts, or achieve goals through manipulation and deception. That’s why the fourth commandment of sound character development is to revere the truth to the best of your ability. Let a deep reverence for the truth guide you in all your thoughts and actions. This doesn’t mean it’s okay to use the truth as a weapon or to be brutal in your disclosures. You’re not obliged to share every ugly thing you know to be true. And you have no duty to reveal truths that would serve no good purpose whatsoever but to hurt someone. But you must be ever mindful of the temptation to secure what you want or avoid the things you dislike through deception, cheating, and trickery.

Revering the truth means knowing, respecting, and honoring its value and power. It also means forthrightly and humbly acknowledging and then reckoning with our inevitable mistakes. When we appropriately revere truth, we avoid taking shortcuts in life and are willing to earn the good things we desire in an honest and honorable way. This also means that we take the sincere and genuine course even if it’s the more difficult one. By so doing these things, we develop sound character and live responsibly and with integrity.

Deception: The Heart of Manipulation

We live in an age in which respect for the truth is at an all-time low. Almost everyone “pushing” a product, advancing a political point of view, or advocating a cause engages in what pundits call “spin.” Rather than have an honest debate about the things important to us all, we all-too-often seek to persuade by telling half-truths, distorting and misrepresenting the facts, and appealing to the baser instincts of others. This is manipulation pure and simple and comes at the expense not only of our general welfare but also of our personal integrity.

It Pays to Be Honest

The saying “Honesty is the best policy” is attributed to Abraham Lincoln. But the adage had been around for a long time before Lincoln, who said it during an election campaign. In fact, many American statesmen have repeated the axiom. Benjamin Franklin touted it in an edition of his newspaper Poor Richard’s Almanac. George Washington did so in a letter to Benjamin Harrison stressing the importance to a person’s integrity of being just as honest in public statements as in private affairs. Authors and playwrights from the time of ancient Rome to William Shakespeare to Mark Twain have also echoed this timeless message most believe first appeared in an Aesop’s fable:

A woodman was felling a tree on the bank of a river, when his axe, glancing off the trunk, flew out of his hands and fell into the water. As he stood by the water’s edge lamenting his loss, the god Mercury appeared and asked him the reason for his grief. On learning what had happened, out of pity for his distress, Mercury dived into the river and, bringing up a golden axe, asked him if that was the one he had lost. The woodman replied that it was not, and Mercury then dived a second time, and, bringing up a silver axe, asked if that was his. “No, that is not mine either,” said the Woodman. Once more Mercury dived into the river, and brought up the missing axe. The woodman was overjoyed at recovering his property, and thanked his benefactor warmly; and Mercury was so pleased with his honesty that he made the woodman a present of the other two axes.

When the woodman told the story to his companions, one of these was filled with envy of his good fortune and determined to try his luck for himself. So he went and began to fell a tree at the edge of the river, and presently contrived to let his axe drop into the water. Mercury appeared as before, and, on learning that his axe had fallen in, he dived and brought up a golden axe, as he had done on the previous occasion. Without waiting to be asked whether it was his or not, the fellow cried, “That’s mine, that’s mine,” and stretched out his hand eagerly for the prize, but Mercury was so disgusted at his dishonesty that he not only declined to give him the golden axe, he also refused to recover for him the one he had let fall into the stream. Honesty is the best policy.

The moral message of the tale of Mercury and the Woodman is straightforward and clear: among all the many other reasons for being honest, there’s practical value in telling the truth. In the end, unpleasant consequences almost always ensue when one is less than forthright. So when all is considered, it’s simply good policy to be honest. In the end, all lies take their toll.  And so it is even with the lies we tell ourselves. Such lies impair our ability to be the kind of person we all have the potential to be. That’s because they keep us from attending to the real issues impeding our growth.

The lies we tell to and about others inevitably bring pain into their lives and impair our relationships. They destroy others’ ability to trust us, and trust is the very foundation of a good relationship. It’s not just bad for us to lie. In the long-run, honesty and integrity pay off — both for us personally and for our relationships.  There are bigger-scale consequences as well. Without the confidence that honesty engenders, companies and even governments inevitably fail. But taking the truthful and genuine course is often difficult, requiring courage, commitment, and sacrifice. It’s often simply easier just to lie, con, or cheat. In the short-run, we might score a victory for ourselves, but in the long-run, everyone loses.

Honesty and Character

Dishonesty is at the very heart of character disturbance. Some disturbed characters disregard the truth whereas others have outright disdain for it.  And it’s bad enough that disturbed characters cheat, lie, con, and manipulate others wantonly, even when there’s no real necessity to do so. But the fact they’re unwilling or unable to be honest with themselves prevents them from reckoning with their flaws and shortcomings and making the changes they need to make to become better persons. This is not a case of “denial,” (as some misguided therapists have often assumed) unconsciously engaged in as a defense of unbearable emotional pain but rather a stubborn refusal to take the tougher, more noble course to being a decent person.

I’ll have more to say on this “fourth commandment” of sound character development in the coming weeks’ articles.  And you can find more on this topic in my books The Judas Syndrome, How Did We End Up Here?, Character Disturbance, and In Sheep’s Clothing.  You can also find severl articles on the subject on this and other blogs I write for, including the articles:  Lying – Another Look at this Character Defect, Why Some People Lie So Much, and Is Lying the New Epidemic?.

Character Matters will again be a live broadcast this Sunday evening at 7 pm EDT (6 pm Central).  Call in at 718-717-8296 to ask a question, share an experience, or simply join the conversation.

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115 thoughts on “Revering Truth: Character’s 4th Command

  1. Three years ago my husband came home after three years in rehabs and surgeries after MRSA was in his spine. upon his return we discovered he was able to walk with a cane or walker, even though there its been verified he has no nerve impulse from the tops of his legs down . they even jabbed him in the feet and legs to get him to wake up , It was not till the top of his legs that he came out of sleep.

    I admit we where not looking to his needs the 28 yea5rs before MRSA . I always thought maybe the next time there would not be something somebody else considered important, Our favorit thing to say when we had to get him to just not do something he wanted so somebody else could was there is always tomorrow to try again. In 2009 those tomorrow hopes died completely for him and he despised me especially for keeping him from doing as he pleased for years. he had golf clubs he had never used. but got as a 29th year gift from work, he had bowling ball and shoes he did not use because of never working a day less than 12 hours. We would say those were things he could retire to. he did not have to do them now. Then The Spine fusion, That morning he came out of the coma and tried standing and finding he had nothing to use. finding Himself talking about planning the rest of his life on wheels. When the doctor told him they had to revive him twice, I was out side the roonm when he asked why god was doing this to him. hadn’t he already pulled his wings off said he did not have a life before why did he bother to make him live longer this way, Or was he just laughing at the joke.

    Three years latter nobody is laughing. He came home to me seeing another man, and the other man wanting to humiliate him by sweeping his cane. My husband Did not put up with it with any thing approaching turning the other check He Used his thrown cane to just about kill the other man, My husband was put in a stress center, Two Weeks latter Came home no longer waiting for any thing he felt was due him He first started with me begging him to meet after a planed invitation only event I was going to With His father, AS the date to his fathers best friend and his mother who did not like it that I was accompanying his fathers friend, Before the evening started it was stopped, I was forced to allow the PART OF OUR MARRIAGE THAT I HAD NOT ALLOWED BEFORE. Begging and pleading to talk things through after the event, try and work something out over time. His thought was 31 years of time was already to much. He has not tried any way of making peace the last three years, He’s like Grant Total and Unconditional Surrender to his terms. And any thing else the war continues.

  2. Well said, Dr George Simon!

    I became a Christian in 1981. In the lead-up to that. I was profoundly confronted/challenged to stop being dishonest. Three public transport enforcement officers bore down on me just after I got out of train on the London tube system. They said to me “Do you have a ticket?” I didn’t. I’d been cheating the system. I had felt such self conceit that I’d figured out how to cheat, how to travel on the trains without buying a ticket. And now these three burly men bore down on me like bulldogs. At that moment, I felt I was being commanded by a stentorian authority: You must give up being dishonest!

    I now know that was God speaking, God organising the whole swoop. … to convict me of sin. About two years after that, I came to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    I KNOW without a shadow of a doubt that God was moving through those three transport inspectors. And I thank Him so much for what He did then: it put the fear of God into me —— even though I didn’t realise that was the phrase for it at the time.

    1. Amazing and wonderful story Barbara! I had been convicted of telling little white lies a few years ago, since then I have felt so free from the burden that the Holy Spirit laid upon my soul for the sin of lying. Even the small lies are coming out of a character flaw. When I sought God about this character flaw He forgave me and grew me. I am much more comfortable now telling truth! I think that we get into a habit of lies because they work and even when they are not needed the habit remains. I am very thankful that habit of mine has been cleansed, now when I feel tempted, I immediately refrain.

  3. Yep, and it all starts with the first lie in early childhood.

    ‘Who took the cookie out of the cookie jar?’

    The missing cookie is not earth shattering – the lie is.

    If I define ignorance as – it’s not what you don’t know, but what you know that is not the truth.

    Then ignorance is not a lie, it’s a blind spot. Although ignorance becomes a lie when one allows their motivation and curiosity in life to die and refuses to make changes in their thought and behavior patterns. Dismantling the walls of ignorance and uncovering the blind spots – learning, growing and seeking the truth is a life-long process from cradle to grave. There is no other healthy way around it.

    No motivation, no curiosity then the worst lies are the lies we tell ourselves. We get stuck and trapped.

    Here’s an example of a half-truth or untruth that many of us told ourselves, we’ve discussed it before on this blog:

    ‘There is good in all people.’

    As long as we believed it we were stuck in a web of confusion and chaos. It was our feelings/emotions and our motivation and curiosity that lead us towards the light of truth – a new way of perceiving and understanding the behavior of the disordered characters.

    Seek the truth in all matters and you’ll discover the traps. The truth will break the chains that hold you hostage to the lies of our people and our society.

    No person[s] has all the answers to the struggles of humanity and the evil around us. The only way I’ve been able to inch my way through such a task[s] is to back down and reach for my higher source. If I call on His name, He always hears – in His ways, not mine.

    If the fox knows what the trap looks like; you’ll never trap the fox. Thus the fox has his God given life of freedom.

    In all matters, seek the truth—know what the trap look like – Character Matters!

  4. And it’s bad enough that disturbed characters cheat, lie, con, and manipulate others wantonly, even when there’s no real necessity to do so.

    I asked the mother whatever had I done to her to cause her to treat me the way she did,

    She screamed at me NOTHING , NOTHING

    1. joey,
      She screamed??
      She probably meant that you did nothing for her, so you deserved that kind of treatment from her.

      1. Just in case I was not clear enough…

        You asked your mother, “whatever had I done to her to cause her to treat me the way she did”.
        She screamed, “NOTHING, NOTHING”

        You can interpret her response in two ways.

        She acknowledges and that makes her angry…
        She really is angry to acknowledge her past wrong deeds. She knows that you did nothing to hurt her. She knows that she is nasty one. She is acknowledging that. Acknowledging her wrongs pins her to her past wrong deeds, and that makes her angry. So, she is shouting, NOTHING NOTHING.

        She is still as entitled as she ever was…
        She is still as entitled as she has always been. She thinks she did you a massive favour by giving you life. She thinks she owns you for rest of her life for nurturing (whatever she did) while you were little. She had been best mother to you, thousands time better than you deserved. You should have revered her like God, and if that was too much you should have at least towed her wishes like a slave. But, what did you do, NOTHING NOTHING.

        It is amazing what people can believe in. And, their belief are the lenses through which they see the world. It is very accurate “we humans have an incredible capacity to deceive”. To stay in touch with truth, one needs to just see the actual action one did and not get swayed by intentions and other things that goes on in ones head.

    2. Joey,

      I believe they know who they are and what they do. If they didn’t they would display the innocence, shock and confusion we do when they accuse us of their own poor behaviors.

      With all due respect to Andy, I think she knew you did nothing. I think she screamed it because admitting the truth is excruciating for them. She did it because you were there and you are how you are so she could. If you were more like her, she would have been careful and treated you better.

      They are always careful around people who are equally or more aggressive then they. I have observed through my studies of animals, predators are very careful to not be injured. I believe it’s an inborn knowledge or instinct: Injuries equal prey. If the predator is injured, they become prey to other predators. I don’t believe human predators think any differently. They can only attack those they don’t believe can injure them in return.

    3. Joey,
      I think in this scenario both AndyD and Charlie present two separate possibilities and I think they are both right. She know you did nothing for her in that she was not able to shape you into another N. Instead you had the qualities of a authentic human being and I believe these people highly covet what they do not posses.

      On the other hand you forced a truth from her and she answered you truthfully, you did “nothing, nothing” meaning you were not to blame.

      I hope this of help to you Joey and always love the poems you write.
      Thank you, they are always so uplifting and full thought.
      (((Hugs))) and many blessings.

  5. I believe in the truth. On that note I will tell you a story.

    In the States rents have gone sky rocketing due to so many people losing their homes in the Great Recession and renting has been the only outlet for them. This includes me. I do not have the funds to purchase a home and at 61 years of age I think it would be a disaster for me to get a mortgage, deplete my retirement savings and pay a mortgage in my declining years because the rents are so high.

    When I divorced three years ago I got the furry children. Two cats and one dog. I have taken care of them and did not send them to the pound although it has been quite expensive.

    I now have to move again since a mega corp bought the complex in which I live, rehabbed it cosmetically and have pushed the new rent to the stratosphere. I can no longer afford to live here. Up until this time I have not had to pay pet rent. The apartments are now charging upfront fees and rent each month for each animal.

    With the sky high rents plus pet rent I will either have to send the two cats to the pound or sneak them into the new apartment. I can’t pay what they want for rent and pet rent and utilities. I am so frugal I have a $12 a month budget for fun but I am debt free.

    Is this dishonesty that I want to sneak the cats in in the dead of night….or am I just fighting fire with fire. The mega corps are manipulating the rents to get the utmost they can (greed, greed, greed) since people do not have the funds to purchase or credit is tight. I am 61 and can’t for the life of me purchase a house at this time of my life. That would mean a mortgage until I die and would wipe out so much of my retirement savings.

    So is it dishonest of me to want to save my cats from the pound…or to be totally honest send them to the pound since I do not have the money to pay for their rent since the rent has become so extortionary.

    What would you do…..

    Theresa Maria

    1. TeresaK,

      I just knew that someone would jump on this subject with a comment about a social white lie or a thought closely related.

      I’ll tell you my stance and I don’ try to reason it as being right or wrong – I just do it – period.

      Out of common decency, respect and concern for others I do use social white lies.

      And to save a soul from any type of harm or death – human or animal – YES I would lie!

      You can bet on that!

    2. Teresa,

      I agree with Suzy. This is a morally gray area, a rock and a hard place, so to speak.

      My opinion based on the assumption you are already paying a pet deposit for the dog is that is enough.

      You are being honest in knowing what the apartment is requiring and in your not wanting to cooperate and your reasons for doing so (and it is a greedy and immoral way to make money by capitalizing on people’s love for their pets.). You know and are willing to accept the consequences if they catch you not disclosing your two cats.

      I think as long as you can make peace within yourself for the above items, you will be fine. If you can’t, you will always be defensive, always looking over your shoulder for the animal police to catch you, you’ll not be able to make friends and trust your neighbors because they might report you. You’ll always be looking at yourself as the victim of the greedy mega crop complex who are out to get you. In short, you won’t be able to be comfortable and relax in your new home and that is no way to live.

      So I think as long as you’re being honest with yourself and are willing to accept the burden of the consequences if you’re found out, you’ll be confident and fine. I don’t believe having good character is about being perfect, it’s about knowing the difference between right and wrong and the willingness to accept the fault and the consequences.

    3. Teresa,

      For what it’s worth, I am also wondering if perhaps you should relook at the home buying option. You will be paying monthly for where you live for the rest of your life whether it’s a rent or a mortgage. Depending on the housing available in your area, you may have condos or town homes available or retirement communities (with no upkeep required by you for the outside of the dwelling). There may be homes with mortgages significantly lower than your monthly rental payment (thereby allowing the difference between rent and mortgage to save for repairs and upkeep.) There are mortgage programs available allowing for little or no money down based on the program and credit rating (FHA loans for example and there are many avenues within FHA such as tax credits and ‘gifts’ to lower monthly payments, closing costs, and down payment requirements.). There are also insurances available to purchase should you become disabled or die that will payoff your mortgage.

      I underwrote mortgages for a lot of years before I fell apart. I’m not sure if you’re aware of the many options available to you. Feel free to contact me via email through Dr. Simon’s back channel to discuss this subject further if it’s something you are wanting to explore. I’ve been out of the business for quite awhile but would be happy to supply any knowledge I still have to you. I always believe the more knowledge we accumulate, the more informed we become, the more powerful we are. :).

      P.S. And, of course, you could explore the mortgage options by sitting down with a loan officer at a reputable bank or lender.

      1. TheresaK,
        I am sorry you are going through this, things just settle down and something else comes up. You have gone through so much and really want so little.

        I think you should pay for the pets, I don’t think it wise to do something that will come back and bite you and you will be at square one with probably more problems than you realize. If everyone decided, they were going to do what they wanted it would be a nightmare, that is why the owners are placing rules. Unfortunately, that’s what rules are for.

        TheresaK, Regardless, of how we all feel and how wrong it may seem, the bottom line is they are the owners. The truth of the whole matter is it is wrong to do, and when we decide not to follow the rules there are consequences for our actions. I would hate to see you go down this road.

        This whole blog is about honesty, truth, love, caring, healing understanding,etc.. Its about doing the right thing rather than how we feel and many times it is very difficult to do. I believe this is the case here. In the end it may take more of your resources but you can hold your head high. TheresaK, take the high road, I know its hard, very hard you have gone through so much, don’t give in now. Its a very small compared to losing your integrity.

        I think Charlie is giving you good advise, it is a wise decision to put your monies working for you in your own home rather than giving it to someone else if you can. You should sit down and evaluate your financial abilities and do so with a financial officer, in the end it may prove to be the best thing you could do for yourself. This may be your way to freedom from others controlling the things in life you want and also your privacy.

        I am looking at buying a small home in a rural township that I will possibly live in when I no longer can keep the large property I have. I don’t ever want to rent from someone.

        You didn’t say how did the job interview go? I know you are looking for something and have been praying for you, I do for everyone on the site as I know you do for us. I hope these things work out for you.

        I know I didn’t tell you what you may have wanted to hear, but this is what Dr. Simons Commandments are about. Dr. Simon I believe is setting the stage so to speak, for us to start taking back, our society one at a time, by our example. By us standing up and doing the right thing is the start no matter how painful.

        Blessings and (((Hugs)))

    4. Take your Dogs and cats, and go some were for day with your $12. It will not be far BUT SOMEWERE different. Think what you WANT TO DO. Remember those tall ships. They explored the world. Just think Want Do I want to do. I myself and I say Again myself would explore. How much is a greyhound bus ticket.

  6. Hi All!

    Thank you for your comments. Each of you expresses dividing opinions and I will respond.

    The question for me is if the landlords are extorting rents because of the inability of the people to get credit to pay for a mortgage isn’t that unfair? Does one just take the abuse? Or does one mitigate the extortion by paying for the dog (which I will) but not pay for the cats.

    I do not have the up front fees to pay for the mortgage…because I only work part time and am not able to get full time work at my age and am unemployed now I am not able to get a mortgage. I have tried through a bank that I bank with. They say I will not qualify and that I would have to pay cash for a house and that would bankrupt me in my retirement. So I will have no house going forward.

    I will take the consequences of my actions. Quite frankly, I don’t think it is going to be such a big deal. I pay my rent on time, I am a model renter, keep to myself and do not disturb anyone. That I get disturbed is another thing.

    I had to pay $200 up front for the dog and will pay $25 a month for the dog until she dies. That is enough. The dog will live probably another 5 years. 5 X 300 = 1500. I already paid $300 to this complex that I am in now and will not get that back. So $1500 + $300 + $200 = $2000 in pet rent. Add that to the two cats it would be $6000 over the next 5 years. Nope….if the market is extortionistic I refuse to pay extortion prices.

    I’ll take my chances.

    Theresa Maria

  7. TeresaK,

    You said: “Quite frankly, I don’t think it is going to be such a big deal.”

    Well two cats living rent free, quite frankly – I don’t see the big deal either.

    You said: “I think it would be a disaster for me to get a mortgage, deplete my retirement savings and pay a mortgage in my declining years because the rents are so high. I have a $12 a month budget for fun but I am debt free”

    I seem to think that once someone in their senior years has made a reasonable adjustment to apartment living then it’s a high risk changing back to owning a home – limited income, declining health, decrease in mobility, etc.

    Apartment living can be a bummer but so can owning your own home. It’s a case where the grass always seems greener on the other side. You pay rent and dump problems onto the landlord. You own your own home and the problems are in your own hands.

    You know that old saying: “Be careful what you wish for.”

    Here’s another idea: Instead of investing in a home, budget your money to make life easier for yourself and your pets. A peaceful and simple life. You are debt free so use your money and die broke – you can’t take it with you.

    And one more thing – don’t let your cat’s sunbath and look out of your apartment windows – the pet police will catch you.

    1. I agree with you about the cost of ownership as apposed to dumping problems on my landlord….I have a wife and husband friend now close to eighty and they still have a mortgage and they are having a very hard time paying for the upkeep on their small ranch. The mortgage is very doable at $500 a month but add in the upkeep, replacing appliances, taxes, insurance and having to pay someone else to do what they could do just 5 years ago I do not want that. It is becoming a hardship to them and the house is not anywhere near paid off.

      I hope this does not happen but the husband is not well and when he goes she is going to have all that upkeep and cost on her own dime. She just lost a kidney to cancer. She just may have to sell and move to independent living which I will be doing when my pets die. Isn’t that just the awfullest thing.

      Theresa Maria

      1. TeresaK,

        That is what I was trying to say. I just didn’t want to put into words because I am still lying to myself about the very same issues. Now you all have caught me another lie I am telling myself.

        Old age ain’t for sissys. Golden years – what’s that?

        1. Yeah, dear Betty, and she was far from poor…god love her. Golden age is just media talking to take that cruise, do a reverse mortgage, purchase a variable annuity and take that reduction in force at 58.

          Gotta love it. Welcome to the American Dream.

          I like the idea of Japan. They allow the homeless (the elderly) to make tents out of plastic in the parks for long term living quarters. Talk about social programs for the elderly!

          But hey! its not under a bridge. Quite frankly I would prefer the privacy under the bridge if I could bring my tent. And my dog and two cats…shoot I just might make it to jail yet…but no pet rent! Except in the gulag.

          Love Love

          Theresa Maria

          1. TeresaK,

            Speaking of media talk – yesterday I got junk mail for discounts coupons for senior travel, food & wine and sports access. Whippy-do!

            Senior hardships are being hidden from the public. And the worst is yet to come as more boomers retire.

            If they can eliminate life at the beginning they can surely do it at the end to.

          2. TheresaK,
            I thought you were feeding the critters on the interest you get at the bank. LOL what a joke.
            Thats the idea, to get rid of all the useless baggage being us old Baby Bombers, they want all our money. If they don’t get it one way they will rob you of in another and if that doesn’t work there are other means and it isn’t good.

            When you reach a certain age you can draw off your X’s SS benefits whichever is greater as long as you don’t remarry.

            For the little ones try googling their symptoms, you may find there is some type of homeopathic remedy. Also, many meds they give dogs are for humans. You may be able to improvise.

            Perhaps Charlie with all her critter experience may have a suggestion, or just throw it out there someone may respond. Save you some $$$
            never know until one tries.
            (((Hugs))) Theresa Marie

          3. To All,

            The only thing I know for a dog’s explosive bloody diarrhea is metronidazole antibiotic. I save money by buying bulk through Dr Fosters and Smith with the approval of my vet. It’s on hand when I need it and saves the vet visit price and clean up costs by catching it early before the explosiveness starts. I also use Imodium to help stop the cycle and clean up. Sometimes the vet offices will provide a bulk amount of pills and cut their mark up down to compete with online companies.

  8. I’m on the second floor with a balcony that is covered by trees. The windows do not have ledges so the cats can’t sun bathe. They can sun bathe on the balcony but when the dog hears anything she doesn’t like she barks and the cats scurry under the bed.

    The dog is a trained security dog. She does not bark constantly….only when she decides the noise she hears is a threat.

    The balcony has very close bars so the cats can’t climb through them….they can walk on the ledge though.

    This is a huge complex…545 units. So it would be very hard to pick out two cats within such a large area. Anyway….if I get busted I will just pay for the second cat. The third cat will just be a ghost.

    I have a habit of ingratiating myself with the management by taking up home baked goodies and bringing the dog with me. Works every time.

    Theresa Maria

    I read the book “Die Broke” it was a good read.

    1. TeresaK,

      Yep, you got it – cat lives matter!

      ‘Die Broke’ is a thought provoking read. IMNPHO [in my non-professional humble opinion] it’s not a bad idea at all. Especially for those of us leaving behind any wacko family members. Nope, not a bad idea at all.

      1. Teresa,

        Take care of your pets is your priority. Taking animals to a shelter at an older age is not wise or humane in anyone. Maybe your family can contribute to help you out. Maybe with prayer yo can visualize extra income. I like that you are social with the management staff locally. Remember to visualize the larger picture and it will all work out. If any pets ever need to be adopted remember that there are rescue groups who can help find good homes. Keeping your oets in a loved home is a priority.

        1. All my animals have been rescues and when I found them I promised that they would never have to live in a cage or on the streets again and I am keeping that promise.

          Theresa Maria

          1. TeresaK

            Bless you – You are a sweetheart!

            Understand the language of animals and you’ll know the voice of God.

  9. Teresa,

    It sounds like you have a plan, feel comfortable with it and are clear about your wants and needs within the morally grey area. I’m glad you have a sense of clarity and forthrightness.

    I also agree with you on not paying cash for a home. That would not be a wise option. If at some point you decide to look into buying something in the future wait until you get social security. That’s your steady monthly income. Part time work is also acceptable based on a consistent two year work history. Banks are not allowed to discriminate based on age. If you decide you’re happy renting then you’re happy renting.

    Glad you have everything worked out and settled in your mind. It’s always half the battle for me with the other half being execution.

    BTW, Are you staying in the same remodeled complex or are you moving to another complex?

    1. No Charlie,

      I will not be staying here where I am at now. The complex is raising my rent to where I will be paying over a $1000 a month. I don’t have that kind of money. The landlord basically said that they expect up to 80% of those that live here will move and that has happened…what they did not figure on is that very few are moving in at the price point that they have set. They are now giving a two month incentive ($2400) to get people to move in and a few young ones have done so. Little do the young ones know that the utilities and the ad on charges are going to eat them alive. I am moving out at a cost of about $2000 to a cheaper apartment. I will lose the pet rent nonrefundable fee from this complex and will likely lose the refundable damage deposit since I no longer rent from the old management. So I am out about $3000.

      Theresa Maria

      1. Teresa,

        That just sucks eggs! I’m sorry you’re dealing with a new difficulty. Life with difficult people just doesn’t seem to give any breaks. The husband, the boss, the cop, the apartment complex. There are so many if them out there and they cause so many problems. It’s wearing, I know.

        I hope you found a nice place that you like better and will be more stable, although, they’re showing they’re a bit greedy. Hopefully, the management is more laid back than the corporation that owns the complex.

        1. Charlie, let’s look at it this way….

          1. The cop: he’ll be dead in a couple of years since he refuses treatment for the leukemia, or a heart attack since he is so obese I suspect the treatment would kill him anyway
          2. The ex husband: he did not get the most wanted job of playing god at a world renowned hospital, he is now working contract (again) in IOWA.
          3. The apartment complex: They are losing their shirts on this deal and the word is out since so many complained in the online apartment ratings network. That is why they are not getting new renters. The reviews have been scathing, well written and true.
          4. The boss treats his employees like they are well beneath him and it shows….he can’t keep the talent. Only the ones that can’t get hired elsewhere stay.

          So really, did any of these people come out ahead through their behavior. No they did not. That being said…sure I have to deal with them but I am in a financial position to be able to walk even if it is a hassle for me. Good tenant, good wife, good employee, good girl friend. I’m not perfect but JEEZ! there are just a lot of nasty people in this world and how they got that way is still a mystery to me since I grew up with little and much abuse. Go figure…I should be in jail from how I grew up but I am not and I am a pretty decent person sans hiding my cats…and on the scale of 1-10 to me that does not even rate! Considering the behavior of these people…anything goes I suppose.

          Theresa Maria

          1. Teresa,

            You make me smile! Life is often hard and, you’re right, while the CD behavior makes our lives harder it often makes their lives harder as well whether they recognize the consequences of their actions or not.

            In the end, they don’t really feel good about themselves and we do.

          2. TheresaK,
            I grew up very poor too, I was a good mother, I took in family members all of which stole from me, I was a good employee and numerous letters and plaques for outstanding work, all in all I try to be a good person. I am not asking for anything special, I take care of my sis and she will ask me why.

            My answer to sis is what Jesus said: “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” I told sis I hoped when the time came I would find someone to help me. Any good that I do comes from God, it is not of myself that I am good.

            TheresaK, I have family members that did decide to be CD and it is their choice.

            Love your cats as one, they are your friends and children. Animals were put here for a reason and these little ones fill a void within us.
            So many times they give a person the hope and will to live and life is a gift of our creator.

            We will keep praying for a solution in re: of your living arrangements. You know HE will provide for you. Not matter HE always makes a way for HIS children.

            ((((Hugs)))) and a kiss on the little ones heads!

        2. Charlie,

          “A Bit Greedy” one is either greedy or not. You, love, love….as someone said to me many many moons ago….”Become more selfish”

          Well, sweetness….”Become more selfish”

          Love , Love

          Theresa

          1. Teresa,

            I’m not sure I understand what you mean, ‘become more selfish.’ Could you clarify? Am I coming across as too unselfish?

            And, yes, one is either greedy or not greedy. I was trying to be tactful as this is going to be your new home. 🙂

  10. Charlie,
    The box that usually came up that showed who is posting is not being displayed at least its not for me. I went back to read a post on the last topic and found your last post, which I missed. I deal with chronic pain and am not feeling well. I understand your emotional turmoil and felt all the things you expressed and its still very painful. Lets continue that thought tomorrow on this topic.

    Give this some thought, you mentioned your age and how nice he was to you while dating. Once married, think back how things changed, perhaps very subtlety at first and have escalated over time. The marriage certificate gave him in his mind rights to ownership.

    Be kind to yourself, we all wanted and thought the best and were all so young, very trusting and naive. We entered the relationship and honored the marriage contract which it is but we also pledged an oath in all truthfulness and sincerity, they did not.

    In you situation I think there is a double edged sword here depending on his pathology.

    Divorce vs separation and the factors of telling him what Dr. Simon says or what does Charlie have to say according to what she sees. A red flag went up when you told me you told him about Dr. Simons site. I believe this is a mistake as it would be very easy for him to google himself. I would not want him to be forewarned and some harm come to you.

    Be ever so careful, I know you know him, but many times and I know you are an intelligent lady, however, others can see your situation more clearly, us being on the outside and having gone threw the eye of the storm. However, you are on the inside and a distortion and or underestimation of who and what you are dealing with and what he is capable of when cornered can be a deadly mistake.

    Blessings

    1. BTOV,

      “The box that usually came up that showed who is posting is not being displayed at least its not for me.”

      The area that you mention is not showing up for me. It makes it easier to follow the most recent comments.

    2. BTOV,

      No worries on the other comment section. I had the same problem with the comment box. When it occurred coupled with no postings, I thought maybe it meant I’d been blocked from the site.

      As far as your current and past concern(s) about giving him information or talking about Dr. Simon’s site postings or books or other reputable authors regarding character, manipulation, narcissism, toxic personalities, or psychopathy my position has morphed into this:

      Shine the light of truth and the darkness, the shadows will be seen.

      So I’m finding that what he is fighting for is becoming more transparent and I am getting less caught up with the fighting and getting to the point of the fighting more easily and more rapidly by using Dr. Simon’s work as a guide, a stabilizing influence to counter all the machinations I’m faced with daily.

      I don’t know if what I’m doing is right for everyone but I’ve been finding its producing positive results for me now. I’m more confident, more empowered (and sad but the truth is often difficult and disappointing) than holding these truths to myself. What the future holds, I’ll find out then. I’m not sure how defining my spouse as a narcissist and perhaps a psychopath and calmly, logically, rationally, and objectively explaining my reasons to him using examples of his behaviors past and present and what I anticipate from him in the future can harm me. (I can just picture him in a courtroom telling the judge of our divorce, my wife believes I’m a psychopath!) My ultimate goal is to save myself not the marriage nor him. (Any positives that may come from saving myself are merely benefits.)

      I know the more I discuss these topics the more his truths, his thinking comes to light. Yesterday (back to the topic of his family gathering) he admitted he does not like to be ‘tethered’ to me, my needs, or to marital responsibilities. This confirmed my belief he doesn’t really want me to go and he only wants the benefits of marriage without the work and sacrifices. In short, he wants to be married but still have all the ‘untethered’ freedoms of being single. These truths, this information allows me to validate I’ve been thinking and understanding his behaviors accurately and to trust my judgement.

      Could he harm me with my own knowledge, perhaps, but based on what I’ve observed from others on this site in similar situations, he’ll try to harm me anyway. At least now, it will be in my territory not his and my territory is something I can understand and defend much easier than his crazy making machinations.

      1. Charlie,
        If I may ask, I know you complain of ailments, what are they and to a degree how debilitating. I am asking this as I have disabilities too and would tie this into our conversation and into what you are going through. I missed your earlier reply. I do not have a phone with internet, nor am I on a computer all the time.

        I have some input and parallels with your situation. I am beginning to understand your logic in how you want to proceed.

      2. Charlie,
        You have been married for how long, I don’t remember you saying?
        When did he begin to say he didn’t like being tethered, just recently? and at some point he must had liked marraige . What do you think makes him stay married?
        How do you differentiate the difference between his and your territory?

    3. Charlie,

      I believe the person that told me to become more selfish meant for me to give myself more self love. I have been way too hard on myself in this life trying to live up to ridiculous self imposed high expectations and the ridiculous high expectations of others to prove that I was worthy. It was all bull. I had a right to make mistakes and not expect more from myself than I expect from others.

      So that is the hidden meaning to being more selfish. I suspect that not being selfish enough has brought most of us to this site since we had such high expectations placed upon us with no return of effort.

      Theresa Maria

      1. TeresaK,

        You’ve pointed yet more lies that I told myself. You’ve certainly hit the nail on the head when you said: “It was all bull.”

        I have a hunch that if we all would have been a little more selfish and took better care of ourselves our state of health would be in much better condition.

        We have worked too many hours, we are exhausted, we are stressed and we are tired of uncertainties in our lives. We need to find a peaceful place to rest and make our life more simple and comfortable.

        We don’t have to try so hard!

      2. Teresa,

        You bring up a very good point and I agree, I just wouldn’t have thought to put it in the term of being more selfish but it is apt. Thanks for pointing it out. I need to take some time and reflect on this idea.

  11. Through the course of my divorce friends keep telling me to do this or that – lying to get an outcome. I keep saying I do not need to lie – I’ve done nothing that I feel is dishonest – I’m doing things in a manner that I don’t need to lie and hopefully can get a good outcome. On the other hand, I’m divorcing a full out liar crook mean SB. And everyone knows it. It’s difficult to lie and remember the lie and stick with the lie. I can’t wait to see him fall apart on the witness stand. Liar liar pants on fire!

    1. Lucy,

      I’ve gotten the same advice from trying to save my marriage (tell him what he wants to hear and do what you want) to separation to divorce. I’ve been given advice to white lie, to fib, to boldly lie, to cheat, to sneak, to lie by omission and so on and so forth.

      I hate lying. I’m not saying I never do it but my lies tend to be small (I’m late because traffic was bad versus I didn’t manage my time well and left the house late.) I find lying to be a lot of work trying to keep everything straight just a confusing mess causing me to feel insecure and defensive. I just simply do not have the tenacity required to keep all those lying balls in the air. It’s just too much work, too much time and too much effort that can be better spent on something positive and productive and actually makes me feel good.

      I don’t know if the truth always wins in the end (that may be a lie we tell ourselves) but I’ll feel better at the end whether the truth is recognized or not. That’s become the only thing that matters to me now. What people choose to believe is out of my control. Let the chips fall where they may!

      1. Charlie,
        I did the same thing all the time to keep peace. It wasn’t lying per se it was a survival tool and it sufficed. In the meantime you are educating yourself to what the real problems are and the answers to the elusive head games being played. When I broached the truth the gauntlets were put on and I did not have the wherewithal, to endure a battle of sheer evil. I struggled severely, on my own.

        By staying together longer and educating him you only give him the upper hand. In essence you align yourself in the crosshairs of his scope, If he is as far gone as you have described previously, it is not wise to banter with him. He is far more equipped to trounce you than I think you realize.

        You know him better than anyone, except, perhaps, his mother. You must never forget there are so many parts of him no one will ever know. I understood to a degree what I was dealing with and it was not good, I never realized how bad it would get. What saved me was I went No Contact except for about 7 times and I probably said less than 20 words. I never let him know where I was at and 8 months in I went silent. Complete No Contact!!!!! Dead silence……….

        You describe a predator, I have dealt with several predators too, they are still there lurking, they know I know and they are not sure of me. You may have studied animals but I don’t think you have tracked like a predator or outsmarted the predator in their territory. The game rules are not what you think, its unlike anything you have ever encountered.

        Do not be deceived Charlie, the truth always wins, it just doesn’t always win in our timing. However, in being truthful we have retained our integrity, our dignity and character and in this we never lose. You see the most important and valuable gift is we remain honest with ourselves and ourselves and our maker.

        Charlie said: “What people choose to believe is out of my control.”
        When we realize and accept this we can begin to take ourselves back. We are able to grow and be authentic and true to ourselves. This is a journey we all must take to be real and true to ourselves and it takes and enormous amount of courage and hard work. The road isn’t easy and there is pain and despair at times but in the end we grow beyond our wildest dreams.

        Take heart Charlie, you are on your way. I am glad you have found us.
        There is a cliche, “Let Go and Let God.”

          1. BTOV,

            I don’t know what you mean by ‘too far gone.’

            He doesn’t have any emotional empathy and I mean none. I’ve described to him several different times in several different ways the definition of emotional empathy with the last time using Dr. Simon’s description of feeling distressed because I am distressed and he looks at me blankly. His expression is just blank. It’s like trying to describe the color red to a blind person. He has no connection to any description to emotional empathy. He’ll try to connect using sympathy or sympathetic words or a cognitive form of empathy (meaning he understands what others are feeling) but he is not emotionally moved by others emotions and has no concept or recognition of what it means to be empathetic.

            He’s impulsive and lacks ‘brakes,’ is extremely narcissistic to the point of being malignant, he loves duping and tricking people, he loves ‘messing with people’s heads because it’s fun to see how suggestible people are’ which is a direct quote, and his latest is that there isn’t much in life that isn’t boring anymore, that gets his adrenaline going except watching someone’s anxiety spike. ‘Boy, people sure get worked up over stuff.’ Also a direct quote.

            That being said, he is very functional and has rules he rigidly and strictly follows even if they don’t always make sense particularly in certain settings.

            So am I pretty sure he’s a psychopath, yes. Am I pretty sure I’m dealing with a predator, yes. Is what I’m doing working, yes, yes it is. The discussion about his adrenaline thrill at others anxiety only came about because of the truthful discussions about psychopathy. The truthful discussions and admissions have come about because of what I’m learning and the calming of my anxiety. My anxiety feeds his predatory ways. Being straightforward and having my thoughts and feeling out in the open calms my anxieties.

            You asked about ailments and I have a couple. One is I’m having immune system issues i.e. autoimmune disease. This I’m having difficulty controlling since stress is a trigger and stress is a constant here. The second ‘ailment’ I’ve struggled with is traumatic OCD symptoms which are much improved through these very forthright discussions. It’s much more difficult to distress and traumatize someone who is no longer afraid of or naive to those predatory ways. Hence the last panicked hand washing incident was 3 months ago versus one or two a week minimum as before.

            A predator is a predator whether human or animal. Humans are just are more creative in what feeds them and there are plenty of interspecies predators out there in the animal world. No predator allows themselves to be seriously injured, they know they are then the prey. Human predators like most animal predators need camouflage to predate, strip away the camouflage and they’re vulnerable to injury and they know it.

            Again, I don’t know if what I’m doing would be the right answer for others in relationships with psychopaths or malignant narcissists but I think it is right for my situation. I believe those strict rules of his (many instilled by the military) creates the ability for this to work for me. Running and hiding is often a trigger for predatory aggression and my instincts tell me he’ll be tenacious in the chase.

            What I’m ‘teaching’ him is very different than what he would learn in therapy (which I slowly figured out only makes him and his manipulation worse.). I’m illustrating the differences between us with a heavy emphasis on how he thinks and how he feels does not make him superior to me or to others like me. That humanity means having internal mechanisms that preserve relationships and communities creating safety and certainty which does not make us ‘weak,’ our strength comes from the affiliation with others. I would not describe this as banter. These are very serious and calm discussions and I have seen marginal improvements. Maybe those marginal improvements are just him being more careful but I’ll take that sign of caution as a grudging respect which is way more than I had before and makes me less interesting as prey. When I am too boring, he’ll go looking for better prey (which I actually struggle with feeling guilty about.)

          2. Charlie,
            Thank you for your response, I have a better understand of where you are at now. You and Tricks will be the great experiment here. I look back and knowing what I do may have done things different. What I have wrong with me is like an autoimmune too, at the time I was tested my symptoms were not what they are now. I have trigeminal neuralgia too that is very debilitation. I had PTSD due to sexual assaults and stress aggravates everything severely. I had tried several of the things you are talking about but did not have the tools available that Dr. Simon suggests.

            As I said I will get back to you on this and I am sure many will comment on this. Always, remember, past behaviour and what he has said or done is a pretty accurate indicator of what he is capable of. I know a personal question, has he always been faithful? I may put together a checklist for yours and mine.

            I don’t know where you are at but faith and prayer was my saving grace. I am trying to clean my acre lawn and have a friend coming to clean up mature trees I had to have cut and I hurt so. I need to find some cover plants. Have you gotten any benefits from any of the meds you take? I try to reduce any stressor I can in life.
            Have a nice day Charlie.

          3. BTOV,

            It is a great experiment, isn’t it. Personally, I recommend leaving as quickly as humanly possible but that option hasn’t been available to me.

            I’m greatful for my interest in animal behavior as it helps in the understanding of basic predatorial behavior and I’ve had to subjugate my inborn instinct to fear and destroy aggressive animal threats in order to work with animals that are considered dangerous by many.

            I’m also greatful to Dr Simon. I’ve been studying some of his case studies and have been impressed with his calm, truthful and forthright manner. He doesn’t hide how he views the behaviors. He doesn’t appear fearful, anxious or threatened either. I’ve recognized that I often feel threatened by Trick’s behavior and often I can’t objectively reason the why. I think it’s a flight fight freeze response to the aggression that’s often very covert. I’ve had to work hard to manage that response or Tricks has already won the encounter.

            I have no knowledge of his being unfaithful. I’ve certainly had a number of instances where I have strongly suspected he has but when confronted he swears up and down that he has not. So, I cannot say for certain either way. However, I can say with certainty, he lies a lot without guilt, without remorse. He also does what he wants when he wants so he is more than capable if he chose to cheat. He’ll never admit it if he did and as he travels a lot has had plenty of opportunities.

            My official diagnosis is undifferentiated mixed connective tissue disease which is an autoimmune disease that’s a precursor to lupus. So as it has been explained by the rheumatologist…..so you are really sick, when you are really, really sick you’ll officially have lupus. He also reminds me twice a year to reduce my stress to avoid getting to that official lupus diagnosis. I just roll my eyes. Reducing stress isn’t really an option here. I’ve had some benefit from the meds but the Pred is making me gain too much weight. Adding synthetic cortisol to a system already flooded with cortisol makes Charlie chubby and chubby is not good for my self esteem.

          4. 🙂

            And you have a nice day too. I need to get moving on my landscape project now that it’s not brutally hot here.

          5. Charlie,
            I apologize, I used the wrong wording it is a dangerous experiment and the idea is to keep you alive. All of this is so unblievably stressful, to bad not on them in the way it affects us. Under stress he may do something harmful to you.

    2. Lucy,
      So glad you are telling the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Believe telling the truth and everyone will know it and especially you. I am proud of you that takes humility and courage to stand true to yourself. Good for you. You may not know it, they will respect you for it. Everyone will know who the liar is and you did not succumb to his level and did not sell yourself out. You are indeed a prize. I hope you have a great day besides everything else..

  12. Do they believe their own lies?

    Well it sure is hard to wrap my brain around the possibility that any one person can be so dumb. Gee, how could that be? Although when I look at the speck in my own eye and see the many lies that I told myself the answer seems to be ‘yes’ they believe their own lies – that is their reality.

    It’s ideological not pathological.

    As I stated in a previous comment – I really believed that with patience that I’d find good in all people. I believed my own lies and I was prepared to go to my grave believing it.

    It was a lie – my incorrect way of thinking, my grossly and dangerous ideologically.

    Be prudent – Stand Watch!

    1. While there may be good in almost all people, there many people where bad far overshadows good, and for all practical purpose they will not do anything good to others.

      Lets keep it simple, it is wrong to believe that ‘there is good in all people.’ 🙂

    2. Suzi
      Am I understanding this correctly, to make it simple you do not believe the term pathological should be used rather the sickness of the CD is ideological ?

      1. BTOV,

        No I do not believe that they are pathological – in the sense of having a disease of the brain [perhaps a comorbid dx.] Their problem is not organic or biological. Their problem is a self-made rebellion, the refusal to back down – a choice.

        I believe their dysfunctional behavior is a self’ism’ learned behavior and the foundation is held together by lies thus leading to a rigid inhumane ideological way of thinking = dismantle and destroy – put the lights out on goodness.

        We all have an ideological way of thinking, our individual and unique way of thinking – our ways of seeing and feeling the world. Our thoughts drive our feelings and behavior. Put it all together and it becomes our belief system.

        Nothing will ever change our beliefs unless we are motivated and curious enough to take the responsibility upon ourselves to seek and look further. We must seek truth to find truth. Sadly it does not come knocking on our front doors. We make the choice to go as far as we can see knowing that when we get there we will see further – from cradle to grave.

        That’s what we do because we care and that’s what CD’s don’t do because they don’t care. They are emotionally stuck in their own little dark world of self’ism’ = greed and pride.

        In a previous comment I gave an example of a belief, part of my ideology, that I held onto tightly. That is until I constantly read Dr. Simon’s quote: “They know what they are doing, they just don’t care.” I’m not real smart – not the sharpest cheese in the dairy display, it took me a long time and a lot of reading to wrap my brain around it – I’m not all there yet.

        So back to your question – No I do not believe that they are pathological with a mental ‘illness’.

        Yes, I think it’s their ideology – it’s so severely faulty that they do have poor mental ‘health’.

        And with my faulty belief I was driving myself into the pit of poor mental ‘health’.

        IMNPHO – Mental ‘illness’ is not the same as poor mental ‘health’.

        I hope this makes sense – I’m tired – been cleaning floors all morning – dog/cat hair – YIKES

    3. Charlie,
      I am replying to your post above Suzi.
      I understand your position of not being able to leave and will work with that, I was not able to either.
      Animal behavior will give you and idea of basic predatorily behavior. In a wolf pac they will protect their wounded, not so with humans.
      Dr. Simon is in a different position than we are, knowing good fear and bad fear, is in a position of educated authority and is a confident alpha male who is not threatened by the likes of Evil. Man can’t touch Dr. Simon because he fears only ONE.
      Feel threatened by Tricks behavior, response Flight or Fight, to covert aggression. You need to turn your mind off at these times, your body is screaming Danger! Tricks can smell the FF it is good you can control it for now. Mask it at all times, Tricks respects strength, your physical weakness will draw him in and you will hold him at bay only so long.
      Infidelity, if you suspected than he has.
      you don’t say your age???
      Pred have you looked into alternatives, I have a doc friend with L and will see if she has any suggestions other than P. Your body will rebel from all the stress and you will never be able to recoup. Tricks will have less and less use for you and you will become a burden. He will not like you are Chubby and as you age he will hate you more. Is he both good and bad my gut is screaming evil big daddy evil devil danger.

      I have not read your other posts yet. Please do not take anything personal, you are in a throat deep quagmire, ? is how do we get Charlie out or do you stay Rupunzal ?

      1. Please excuse my type O’s my mac keeps auto filling words in. It is good to keep your mind focused in controlling your body language when around him in FF mode. I said off above, I am hoping you can shut the mind down for at least a little while. If you can’t shut the FF off, how do you get to sleep? Pred is very hard on your body too.
        (((Hugs))) and will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

  13. These characters will always bend over backwards and go to great lengths to spread lies and sabotage everything in their paths. Their method of tactics are all different and with varying degrees but the root is always the same – lies.

    Always – it’s a truth and the truth is reality.

    We counter attack by building our core strength and living our life where character matters thus making liars out of them.

    In other words we give them the rope then stand back and let them hang themselves.

    1. Suzi,
      I have always contended they are their own worst enemies and in the end they will hang themselves, thats what I did when I left. I came to the conclusion there was nothing more that I could had done. I never even thought to alter the outcome, I knew the only thing I could do was take care of me.

      “The truth will set you Free”

      1. BTOV,

        And as long as we hung onto the belief that there was just one more thing that we could do – it allowed more time for them to weaken us and to do harm to us.

        We did our best and now we did even better – we handed them over to their chosen source of higher being.

        I heard the story of Judas’ betrayal countless times since early childhood although I never connected the dots until I started tweeting my core beliefs. Understanding and then accepting the parallel wasn’t easy but anyhow what a drastic change and burden lifted from my shoulders. And slowly my frame of mind changed.

        There really isn’t all that much we really know for sure in life – except that HE cares.

  14. To All,

    I have a different perspective on this topic. I don’t think believing there is good in all people is a lie. The belief all people have some good in them is something I’m working on harder than ever to hold onto and struggling with holding onto this concept in light of my current circumstances. I do this for a couple of reasons:

    1.) To not believe there is any good in a person dehumanizes and objectifies them which is a characteristic of the CD’s own poor behavior and allows the CD’s to treat people badly. I do not want to end up like them.

    2.) To not believe there is any good in people will allow manipulation through good deeds. Motivations for good deeds is not always transparent and if someone does good things we assume they’re doing those things for the right reasons. Tricks uses good deeds to manipulate me into forgetting his bad deeds and to cover up his true motivations.

    3.) Not believing causes cognitive dissonance and confusion when there are moments where the CD sincerely does something good which leads to,

    4.) Believing a person is all bad leads to splitting or black and white thinking, a cognitive distortion or thinking error. Not recognizing bad people can occasionally do good things with good intentions can cause misjudgement in assessing their overall character.

    So I believe that there is some good in all people is truth and an important truth we should hold onto. It’s important to realize that good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things. To me character is as much about how you handle the good and bad things we all do.

    Conversely, telling ourselves that the good side of them will win over the bad side of them now that’s the lie we tell ourselves to feel better and feel safe but we all know isn’t true. We just want that to be the truth.

    1. Charlie,

      “It’s important to realize that good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things.”

      You are correct – there is most certainly both good and bad in all people. There are no exceptions, it’s human nature, we are all in the same fish tank.

      What makes the character disordered so dangerous [to varying degrees] is the intent behind their behavior. To do harm with the intent – intent is the key word.

      1. Have all of you forgotten about the Hitler’s, Stalens, the Caesar’s, Charles Manson’s, Ted Bundy, Bernie Madoff, etc………… Tell me what good is in these individuals, except a self serving purpose. Did they do some good things, of course they did! Is this the good that is in every individual?

        I believe you put your life on the line, these people are evil and have in all truthfulness never done any good for anyone. It is always about them, selfish gestures of giving, creating an illusion of truth and how many are sucked into the lie?

        Look at where we are at as a nation, it is corrupt and rotten to the core. Where is that good in everyone? How did we get this way? We have been lulled into complacency and in the meantime are living in a huge cesspool of lies the majority don’t want to except the truth.

        There is only one truth and that truth will set you free. The problem is fewer and fewer people are willing to submit to the truth and it is all so simple.

        Blessings

        1. BTOV and All,

          No, I haven’t forgotten – it’s all part of the big picture. That’s why I used the example of my false belief that there is good in all people. Which is an absolute lie.

          It was a warning to others because it’s a dangerous way of thinking and yes we put our welfare and lives on the line.

          These disordered characters are not only in our private lives – it’s a world-wide plague.

          The wolf will come looking and acting like a sheep – he will devour and destroy. That’s what is so scary – he will look and act normal – IT’S A LIE.

          They do no good, what looks good is all part of the lie. The only thing they do is serve as a good example of evil.

          Be prudent – Keep Watch!

      2. Suzi,

        I absolutely agree with you. I’m finding the more I find out about Tricks the more distrustful I’m getting about everyone’s motivation regarding anything good they do hence my struggle to hold on to there is good in everyone even the CD. Just because someone does some good things even if their motive is pure doesn’t automatically equal safe or someone I want in my life.

        1. But if I don’t believe or have faith there is good in all people I’ll be lulled in by the CD (who makes certain their good is noticed) and miss out on the good charactered people (who are usually more subtle and understated.)

        2. Charlie,

          “Just because someone does some good things even if their motive is pure doesn’t automatically equal safe or someone I want in my life.”

          That’s right.

          We must put up strong boundaries and stand firm. Refusing to let anyone close to our heart until they have earned it.

          Another lie I told myself – I had to be nice to people = tolerant the intolerant.

          Two truths here:

          1. We can be too nice for our own good.
          2. Many people do not love the same way we do.

          Always protect your heart!

          1. Don’t forget your soul the ultimate prize in the end game.

            Charlie, I am doing better today so I am trying to get a few things on my backed up list. I hurt to much yesterday and only ate a bran muffin an apple and peanut butter, cold vegetables. So today get ready for the next bad day. Anyway, this thread is going to become unwieldy try to keep your posts together and I will read.

            I will try to give you as much input as I can and whatever I say please remember I mean nothing personally.
            If I ask a lot of questions it is only to getter a clearer idea. Could you tell me again when you began to post as I will go back and reread when I have time. I know I was with my sis in the hospital and missed for awhile. I want to give as much thought as I can to answering as clearly as I can. Its going to take me a little time to do this. I won’t get back to many of the posts till tonight.

            One of my Dr.’s a Yale grad told me these words of wisdom. Don’t over analyze, I have a very analytical mind, when I simplified my thought process it became easier. However, when on in on the edge of the precipice with danger all around one may overlook the timing of their escape route.

            I would if you haven’t already read about the Stockholm Syndrome. Also, many times one listens but never hears their own self.

            On this forum we are all equal, we all bring many different and unique gifts, the beauty of it all is, the strength of all these gifts combined and in this blessing a strong leader in Dr. Simon. I would say that gives one a strong support group here.

            All have a blessed day and HE (smile sis) does watch out for us.
            ((((Hugs)))) and later.

    2. Charlie,

      Shock and awe…..about the CD doing something good but for what reason?

      Case in point: The dog, when under stress has bloody poop that explodes. It is a mess to clean up and she needs meds and a visit to the vet in an emergency basis. I believe she is getting stressed because I am stresses right now. Just like a child! Mummy is stressed so the baby gets stressed too!

      Well, it was the weekend, of course so no vet visit since they were not open so I called the ex and he sent in a script for the meds she takes. So far so good. I called and thanked him for sending in the script. We talked for a moment.

      Now when he went to IOWA for the contract he wanted to see the dog. But I refused since he refused to help with her medical treatment and I was also afraid that he would take the dog to IOWA. I would never put it past him to steal the dog. So did he call in the script out of the goodness of his heart! Heck no! He wants to see the dog and has figured out that if he doesn’t do anything to care for the dog he doesn’t get to see the dog. Like he thinks we have joint custody or something. He even texted me to have a good night!
      That’s a first. Truly ! Last time he wanted to see the dog I told him no since he is a “deadbeat doggy daddy” hahahahahahaahahahahha!

      Theresa Maria
      !

      1. Teresa,

        So here is an interpretation of what you experienced: He does care, in his own way, about the well being of the dog. You asked his assistance and impulsively, reflexively he agrees. He doesn’t attach strings or conditions to your request such as ….yes but only if you do x, y, and z. So I think we can say they are capable and do nice or good things in a sincere way occasionally. I see this behavior occasionally with Tricks as well. (It has caused much confusion which refers me back to the list in the above post.)

        The problem is once that nice or good thing is done by them we express our gratitude which in your case was a couple of minutes of nice conversation. That opens the door for them to start thinking of ways to take advantage of our gratitude. This is the give an inch take a mile scenario I’ve referred to regarding Tricks.

        I suspect that if you politely thanked him for writing the script and hung up, the script would have still been at the pharmacy. The gratitude you showed was the ‘weakness’ he is now capitalizing on with the request to see the dog. I’ve found our pro social values if empathy, gratitude, kindness are all weakness to the aggressive.

        In your situation I would also be fearful of entrusting my beloved dog to him but the most likely scenario is Tricks would give the dog back. However, the aggression, poor impulse control and the ability to take advantage of kindness and gratitude are so foreign, so opposite of what we expect they feel like some alien life form and are then untrustworthy and fearsome, with good reason. They do not have the character traits, the pro social values we actually depend upon to follow through with their agreement. This makes them capable of anything THEY chose to do whenever THEY chose to do it, our wishes, our needs, our distress are like pesky flies they just swat away.

        My feelings and thoughts are what I’ve been discussing with Tricks in an honest, truthful, and forthright way (this refers to the posts with BTOV). I would illustrate the differences between us and explain how his behavior causes me to feel whether it’s an accurate assessment or not. His behavior does not make him superior and does not always get him what he wants. When he doesn’t show respect for how we as pro social people act, he will not get what he wants as there is no trust built. My dealings, my observations are delaying gratification is infuriating to them. They want what the want and they want it NOW!

        So I guess, in essence, I’m setting boundaries that he will either submit to expectations and pro social ways or there are real consequences he will have to contend with every single time.

        Anyway, this is just a difference interpretation of how to view the scenario for whatever it’s worth. It doesn’t really change the ultimate outcome of anything. Even if the CD actually does a good thing, you can be certain they’ll figure out a way to take advantage of us through their good thing. Maybe it’s so close together that it’s like splitting a hair. I just know it reduces my overall anxiety to understand the nuances of the behavior so that’s what is important for me. Knowing Tricks actually does kind things upon occasion lessens my fear by making him a bit more relatable, a little less alien and foreign to me.

        1. Oh I completely agree Charlie….

          There was nothing altruistic in the ex’s good deed. He wants to see the dog and he wants me back in his life whenever he needs someone to do something for him. Simple as that. My attorney said something about how the ex treated the dog when I discussed the ex’s feelings for the dog….which became a real bone of contention in the divorce settlement.

          The attorney said “He loves that dog like a 6 year old loves a dog.” I thought that was very insightful. When the settlement was signed and I got the dog the attorney trooped back into his firm and the first thing out of his mouth was “She got the fu@king dog!” Everyone cheered.

          Theresa Maria

          And BTOV….thank you for your blessing, it touched my heart
          And Suzi….rock on girl!

        2. TheresaK and Charlie,
          You are always welcomed TheresaK.

          In his own way he may care for the dog, like the 6 year old he is. Really, it was the humane thing to do. Knowing him though and I think I mentioned this to you when he first wanted to visit, you better watch out he will never bring the dog back and then how would you get him especially, in another state.

          However, knowing what we know now it is wise at all costs not to revisit our X’s and stay as far away as possible. The trust in so many of these situations is breached beyond repair. I know I could never trust any of the CD in my life because with them it is always Pay Back Pal..

          Importantly, their conduct and lives do not reflect a change of heart.

          1. TheresaK,
            In the divorce the CD fought for the dog because the CD knew you wanted the dog. Question: If the CD thought you didn’t want the dog would he had abandoned the dog or gave the dog to a rescue or just plain let you have him?

            Out of all the assets we had, the CD wanted the dog because he knew I wanted him. I bought the dog and found the breeder, I almost died protecting the dog in a vicious dog attack by 2 St. Bernards and I loved that dog. Otherwise, I never said one thing I wanted, he pumped a tear and the CD got my dog. I am the custodial owner and at this time he would almost be dead. I do only rescue now.

            When I left I didn’t take my dog, had I tried it would had been disastrous and I had nowhere to take him. I didn’t say until the trial I wanted the dog, he pumped a tear and the dog was awarded to him.
            The courts are ignorant idiots, if they hadn’t given me the dog immediately, he would had killed him.

            Any redeeming qualities left when the CD’s minds become so malignant and diseased, is almost nil, thinking otherwise, borders on delusional on the preys part. The older the CD gets in these cases the further any inkling of humanity can honestly be found. Any inkling of who they may have been is but a film and it is used for the con of sucking another naive target/prey into their lair.

            I have been victimized all my life by the CDNSP and I refuse to ever again. I have seen their deceit and lies and cons from since I can remember. I have had my chains of kindness and caring pulled to many times and my eyes are open. I have gotten very good at reading the CD and they are predators make no doubt about it, and from this sort get away.

            I have rambled forgive me.

    3. Case in point we will use Bernie Madoff. Good in him: He donated huge amounts of money to the poor and needy. Bad in Him How many people committed suicide as a result of him, how many lives destroyed? Hm… old Bernie, good Bernie, Bad Bernie, does he get ice cream or jail.

      Overthinking and PC and whatnot have made our society, this country what it is today a huge wreak. These people are wicked and downright evil. There are parts of your city you won’t walk in, your kind hearted debates of Good and Bad would have a knife in your gut and your internals pouring out before you could scream.

      I can tell you another thing you would be the first that would then scream how bad he is. How about the murderer Pedafile John Gacy, everyone couldn’t believe it, he was such a Good guy. How many children buried in his crawlspace, Bad guy. Lets get real. There is a huge part of humanity hiding under the pretext of Good today that is buying and selling human flesh for pennies on the dollar. Are these Good or Bad, maybe I should figure out what day is his Good day or his Bad day.

      There is only one judge and there will be a judgement, but I warn you even thinking their is both good and bad will be our downfall. I am wondering if you have ever seen sheer evil, I have and it aint pretty.

  15. In dealing with a no-good CDN with upcoming divorce and there is no remorse, no sorrow for what he’s done to me. In fact he has become more adamant that I owe him at least half of everything- pressing on with his lies and deceit with no conscience. If your spouse is already showing these traits ease l ow they will worsen. They animals don’t back down. If there is good in him I don’t see it. He says he loves our grandson but I was forced to drive a truck with only a front seat, placing baby in front. Is that love? I don’t think so. He’d rather me not purchase a new vehicle and put him in danger. Is it good he takes care of him at times? Yes. But to put a baby in danger to spite me overrides any speck of goodness. And by the way, a fewontha ago a car blew through a red ligjt and hit me with such force it bent the truck frame and totaled my truck. Had baby been in the car who knows what the outcome had been. I’m dealing with a major creep scumbag

  16. BTOV,

    You’ve wrote:

    ‘You and Tricks will be the great experiment here.’

    And in the next post:

    ‘I apologize, I used the wrong wording it is a dangerous experiment and the idea is to keep you alive. All of this is so unblievably stressful, to bad not on them in the way it affects us. Under stress he may do something harmful to you.’

    I must say I am taking this personally. Being told and reminded multiple times throughout topics and posting I’m in danger and may die at the hands of my CD particularly when I’m discussing managing my fears and anxieties and finding a more positive and proactive way of dealing with his behavior is something I’m finding offensive.

    You wrote,

    ‘Charlie,
    You have been married for how long, I don’t remember you saying?
    When did he begin to say he didn’t like being tethered, just recently? and at some point he must had liked marraige . What do you think makes him stay married?
    How do you differentiate the difference between his and your territory?’

    I also must say that while I don’t normally mind answer questions, the volley of questions throughout this and past posts often the same questions repeated numerous times are making me uncomfortable. I feel as if I’m being cross examined and being put in a position of defending and justifying my choices of how to handle my life. I would not expect to feel that way on this site.

    You wrote,

    ‘I am replying to your post above Suzi.
    I understand your position of not being able to leave and will work with that, ….
    Animal behavior will give you and idea of basic predatorily behavior. In a wolf pac they will protect their wounded, not so with humans.’

    I feel as if you are looking for details so that you may tell me what to do and offer solutions to my problems. I have had 22 years of people telling me what I’m doing is wrong, thinking is wrong, feeling is wrong and I find I’m no longer receptive to receiving this type of criticism. The truth is I am the only one that can solve my own problems.

    The reason I’m on this site is to learn, converse with others who have similar experiences, and offer and receive support. Often times I’m finding your posts unsupportive, confusing, and judgemental often putting me on the defense which makes me realize some of your posts feel down right aggressive to me.

    I’ve wondered time again if you have been given some sort of authority by Dr. Simon to decide what is ok to talk about or not and who may be on the site with us or not (I’m referring to the posts with Timothy that seem to imply he was CD and not negatively impacted enough by the CD to join discussions. I don’t know what has happened to him to leave and wonder if he’s been blocked. He appears to have been on this blog for a long time and no asks about him or mentions his lack of involvement. It’s been causing me much concern and anxiety.). I’ve interpreted some of your posts to be the deciding say versus an equal opinion. While I respect the longevity you’ve had with this site, I don’t see where that should translate to a position of power to wield on the site unless authority has been expressly given to you by Dr. Simon.

    To conclude, it’s ok if you disagree with me but it’s not ok for you to fight me on my choices.

    Respectfully,

    Charlie

    P.S. The comment on wolf packs protecting their wounded is not accurate. Packs will often tear apart their wounded if it means they can use the wound to advance their hierarchy status. I’ve witnessed it and it’s brutal and horrifying.

    1. First of all I have nothing against you, never and never will. We all comment on what each poster writes and respond from our own experiences. I changed my thought in your case I did use the wrong term, it is dangerous and it would be a great experiment if it did work. Yes, to bad they don’t experience the stress, perhaps would give em some empathy. You supplied most of the info to include his background and what he does. In your other post which I briefly read you said he has no empathy among other things that scarred me. I believe you started talking about him being a psychopath.

      I have helped many people who were open to listening, I also go by hundreds of woman’s stories I have heard throughout the years. You said he feels tethered, why would he say that, men that feel tethered do that for numerous reasons, mainly they are looking for greener grass due to the woman’s age – # years married – boredom – the worst for human predators is when you are ill and are handicapped.

      I am trying to help you, my thinking was wrong, wrong, wrong, as is the main problem with the CD. I am the only one that can correct my problems and I do rely on the input of many others and they are very responsible and grounded individuals. I have a few mentors, and I give ask them tell me what I need to hear not what I want to hear. This has saved me many years of staying blinded.

      He doesn’t like being tethered and likes the advantages of marriage ? These are two conflicting statements. I was curious what he does like since you argue so much with him.

      I am not judging you Charlie or the CD, God is the judge, I am not criticizing you I am just not agreeing with you on everything, only you can change the feelings of defensiveness. You said for 22 years people have told you are wrong, so I am just another in a long line of others.

      If you find my post confusing then ask. I am supporting you right now and want to see you thrive and survive in whatever, way you decide on to stay or go. It is dangerous to give dangerous CD Dr. Simons books it only makes them smarter and he is no dummy.

      If I have Aggressed against you then I want you to post where, when and how I aggressed against you for everyone.

      I will remind you thinking and feeling are different than actually being aggressed against.

      I have no special ins to anything you have as much freedom as anyone else, as I recall I encourage TheresaK to take you up on your offer and I thought you gave her good advice. Likewise, in another post I suggested perhaps you may know about what she might give the dogs medicinally.

      Know one thinks alike, that’s one our uniqueness as human beings and makes us interesting. We all don’t agree on everything it is our humanness, just the same. There is no pecking order here, I don’t even know how that could feasibly happen. Anyone can post almost anything within reason and we talk of many things. In fact I was going to ask you your opinion on a few things.

      Charlie, this is Dr. SImons blog he alone has the deciding say, we have the right to agree or not to agree. Anyone can comment on what I wrote yesterday and agree or not agree.

      I asked Suzi a question the other day and I believe Suzi disagreed and wrote a lengthy post as to why she feels she is right. I may not necessarily agree with her and many medical professionals don’t. Do I respect her opinion, yes I do, I have some other thoughts about it but in the meantime I am giving what Suzi said a great deal of thought. I am reconsidering some of my thought processes on this issue because there is truth and merit to what she has said.

      You take very good care and blessings

    2. Charlie,
      I would like to add, so many things you say remind me of my own situations. I couldn’t sleep either and the little I did I had nightmares. The book by Gavin de Becker is very good. I don’t think you realize the seriousness of what you are saying and how it looks, but then many times one is safer on the inside than on the outside. One also can lose perception of the seriousness and a loss of reality when they are living in the warzone. Not criticizing, it comes from having been there.

      1. After leaving The Jerk I woke up many times screaming. My BF would shake me awake and pat me. I told him I’m screaming in my sleep because I’m being attacked. The Jerk had been attacking me in court non stop. This went on for months. It finally stopped. It took awhile. I’m still being attacked in court, but no longer screaming at night. Somehow these bad times dissipate. Thank goodness.

    3. Charlie,

      Regarding “I have had 22 years of people telling me what I’m doing is wrong, thinking is wrong, feeling is wrong and I find I’m no longer receptive to receiving this type of criticism. The truth is I am the only one that can solve my own problems.”
      You are right to feel irritated with such constant criticism. These small criticism take a massive toll over long period, so much so that even a hint of such criticism coming ones way will make one angry.
      You are absolutely right to assert that only you can solve your own problems.

      One thing we all should keep in mind is the limitation of written communication. There is large difference between written, verbal, visual, and face to face communication. Unless one sees a pattern, we should give bit of benefit of doubt to comments on blog, otherwise things will go out of control pretty quickly.
      Once I wrote a long comment, and after submitting when it came back to me via email, I myself could not understand it. 🙂

  17. BTOV said: “Believe telling the truth and everyone will know it and especially you. Everyone will know who the liar is”

    How much is it likely that everyone is going to believe us – I’d never bet on this one.

    Charlie said: “I don’t know if the truth always wins in the end (that may be a lie we tell ourselves) What people choose to believe is out of my control. Let the chips fall where they may!”

    It’s out of my control; let the chips fall where they may – now this one I’d bet on.

    In order for any social system [or relationship] to function – we stand firm, we stand up, and we stand back. We fight back when harm is inflicted on our self or others.

    That’s freedom.

    1. Suzi,
      Have thought about a book momentarily, and have journals from way back. I have had many comments I should do so. I don’t know that I could stomach revisiting so many tragedies, besides these stories and far worse are seemingly everyday occurrences and society is accepting as normal. Perhaps Dr. would write one.

      There was a time and I still do don’t ask enough questions to my detriment. Its only normal to ask questions when you are trying to understand the whole picture. Its kind of like when the CD tells a story and they are good at it, or even a non-CD will tell the story and leave out the one thing that would had changed the whole outcome. Game rules with the CD “I didn’t ask.”

      Today is the day for vacuuming after furball if I can. I can’t seem to find a home for furball or mop as my friend calls him. As soon as I divulge how much hair he drops I lose a home. Rather that then have someone take him and then not want him. No easy way to clean up hair on a fluffy dog. I will say he is so soothing to pet. I have turned away 3 rescues so far. I wonder if He’s telling me this is my pet. If I get my service dog I won’t take in anymore rescues.

  18. To All,

    We’ve all been through different circumstances but we do have a common thread. We are living with manipulators. I’m learning much here on this site through others experiences. I derive some validation for what I’m experiencing.
    I don’t find anyone here being judgmental, especially not BOTV. She says it like she sees it, no sugar coating. That’s not her style. If she sees danger she will tell you about it. She’s asked me lots of questions also and I’m ok answering them. I do not feel threatened on this site. I disagree many times with opinions, but I’m still hoping we all get out of these bad circumstances safely and with our health intact.
    I’m in fear of The Jerk I’m trying to divorce. His thinking is abnormal. He harms. I’m in fear that he will just lose his **** one day and shoot me. These CDs can become obsessed with “winning” and they don’t care who they harm, whomever gets in their way.
    My thinking is pretty simple. I’m not educated on psychiatry. I don’t read up on it. BUT I LIVE IT. I KNOW WHAT’S WHAT. I know what is harmful to me emotionally, spiritually and financially. I listen to my gut. I don’t give a rat’s *** about The Jerk’s good qualities, how he thinks, does he love me – none of it matters anymore. What matters is that I’m safe and at peace and DIVORCED from this animal. Dealing with him is like dealing in the Land of Opposites. Whatever would be a prudent thing to do, he will do the opposite, because his agenda is to WIN WIN WIN and me LOSE LOSE LOSE.
    Simplified, we need to get these losers out of our lives and start living the good life we want and deserve. Enough time has been wasted.

    1. Lucy,
      All I can say is thank you, may Gods face shine upon you and I pray his angels put a shield of protection around you. I pray justice will be done, you indeed deserve to have a life after what the CD has done to you. Yes, enough time has been wasted. Stay strong Lucy, you are fighting the good fight.

      Through all this you have stayed strong, you are a beacon of light and truth. In all this you have always been true to yourself, accepting the truth, looking inward and making those needed changes to be where you are at today. Your Character is shining through. When it is all over regardless, you have not sold your soul.

      Lucy, you asked what your gifts are, you don’t know, I will tell you, you have honestly, with all sincerity are a humble person. Humility does not come easy and you have mastered that. Your gifts, you are a caring and thoughtful person and it comes natural from you.

      You have the strength of character through all this turmoil to still reach out and help others and make the difference in this world. Yes, you have gifts and Lucy and I am honored to know you.

      Many times in the past I have commented on past posters with love and affection. All the souls who have been harmed by these callous CD individuals. I miss them. I started to read this blog many years ago and as time passes one begins to know them, you all become real persons with wants, needs and feelings. I have literally cried reading the horror stories and wishing if I knew where these poor desperate souls were I would take them in.

      Thank you, all of you and blessings

  19. To All,

    Suzy,

    Thank you for your supportive comments. I appreciate it.

    Andy,

    I agree written communication is difficult and can be easily misconstrued. Often times I find need to be more cautious while writing than in a face to face communication due to the lack of body language and reflective listening.

    I have been noticing a pattern which is why I’m now saying something about it. One of the things I noticed that caused me concern was BTOV asking under another topic regarding if you understand how replies work. I couldn’t figure out what that meant or where the question originated from. You were very patient in your answer explaining how replies work but I couldn’t understand the intent of the question.

    Lucy,

    I’m glad BTOV’s style is comfortable for you. Sometimes people’s different styles of relating clash and I believe that’s what BTOV and I are experiencing. I’m finding her style to be more abrupt than I’m comfortable with and the only way I know to address something I’m having difficulty with is to address it in a responsible manner. It’s important to recognize when a sugar coating will be received better than no sugar coating. We’ve all been abused in various ways by the CD’s and sometimes it’s very important to be tactful in approaching such sensitive and personal admissions. So my comments are not intended to be accusatory merely illustrating from my perspective in how I’m receiving the information. All of us consider our perspective to be important and valuable while we also recognize other’s perspective to be important and valuable as well. I hope my bringing this issue to light isn’t making you or others too uncomfortable.

    BTOV,

    I am not holding anything against you either. I think that our styles may clash and information isn’t passing between us in an effective way. If you are under the misunderstanding that I’m not scared to death about being married to a malignant narcissist at best and a psychopath at worse than I’ve been too subtle in talking about my issues with anxiety and traumatic handwashing. It’s not uncommon for words coming out of his mouth make my blood run cold and I’m sorry my situation is causing you fear and stress and taking you back into an unsafe time in your life. It causes me nightmares as well. This is the only place I can discuss my worries, fears, and plans with the hope of not completely freaking everyone out. Counseling is not helpful as I mentioned before since once they make the connection to psychopathy based on behavior I’m describing they seem to get weird and it’s clear it won’t be discussed although they acknowledge its ‘scary.’ (Biggest understatement ever!)

    I am aware of the potential danger he is just as I’m aware of the potentional danger of each of our CD’s. Being reminded of it isn’t at all helpful since that fear is something he uses to control and intimidate which most of us has experienced I imagine. I cannot allow fear of what may be control my actions or I might as well give up now and save some time and effort. The less afraid I am, the less effective his tactics are.

    As far as his untethered comments. He wants me tethered to the marriage while he acts like a single person worried only about himself. What benefits him by being married I’m not really sure anymore. He mentioned once that he’s going to fight for what’s his even if he doesn’t want it anymore and, of course, getting an adrenaline surge off of watching other people’s anxiety. If that’s what he’s been getting, I’ve been feeding him lots and no longer allowing fear to motivate my actions and recognizing him for who and what he is, I’ll starve and boring him out of my house.

    1. Charlie,
      I will respect your and every ones right to disagree as I you should respect my right to disagree. You are entitled to say what you like as much as me. I have never responded any different to anyone I am telling you the truth of from what I hear. What you express I lived except I did not educate him. Giving him the book is a mistake. I am not budging from what I have read.

      If he wants you tethered, you sure aren’t going to starve or bore him out of the house. I wished it were that easy because I would had done that. I am praying for you and had everyone at church do so asking for your safety and release from your bondage from this monster. Please continue to post all you want I am glad you are here and found Dr’s sight.

      If I told my CD what you have told yours he would have immediately looked up Dr.s sight and all he would have to do is read my posts and would know it was me. He’s not that stupid. You are right the CD’s get an adrenaline rush off of causing fear in others. That is why I suggested the book by Gavin De Becker.

      The reply was not working right and posters names were missing, there has been technical difficulties on this site before. That’s why I asked. No big deal.

      I am a survivor of many tragedies in my life and I try to share that knowledge.
      Knowledge that I at times I ignored and it cost me dearly, I am grateful to all the well experienced individuals that shed light into darkness and the guiding light of Jesus. Blessings to you Charlie and all.

    2. Charlie,

      Regarding “… asking under another topic regarding if you understand how replies work. I couldn’t figure out what that meant or where the question originated from. You were very patient in your answer explaining how replies work but I couldn’t understand the intent of the question.”

      As far as I am concerned, she was facing problem in the type of reply:
      – reply to a comment
      – reply to a comment, after reply depth of 5 is reached
      – reply to the blog post
      And, there was nothing more it.

      I have technical background, and I can very well imagine the kind of problem non-technical people face while dealing with all the tech stuff that we see around us. 🙂 This smiley symbol also reminds me someone asking me about how to make it.
      And, I am very sure, I did not understand her specific problem with replies. 😀

  20. Andy: “These small criticism take a massive toll over long period”

    Charlie: “I am aware of the potential danger he is just as I’m aware of the potentional danger of each of our CD’s. Being reminded of it isn’t at all helpful”

    Charlie does not feel safe. She has explained why. Let’s be still and listen.

    We must always respect the fear in both others and ourselves. Listen to our gut. Be prudent and take action. Always!

    Also importantly we must never instill fear into others. We must always be very careful about it. Fear is a nasty emotion – probably the most difficult emotion to process. Fear terrorizes, fear controls. It’s an extremely powerful weapon used by evil to control. Just look at the fear and terror that spreads around the world after a pressure cooker explodes.

    We validate, support and encourage each other. We share our fearful stories – they are our personal stories. Although we should never encourage another person to be more fearful than they already are. They already have more than they can handle.

    A wise shepherd tends to his sheep. When they are fearful he does not fuel their fears. He gathers them and protects them by taking action and gently calming them.

    As for all the questions – when my Mother would reply to my questions with her question: “Are you writing a book?” she was not joking – she was annoyed! Questions have the potential of being triggers. We’ve got to keep it simple. We are here to stand by and validate each other as we endure this horrendous learning curve. It hasn’t been easy for any of us.

    We care about what others are willing to share with us and anything else is none of our business.

    Charlie stand firm. Use your boundaries and protect your privacy. That’s freedom.

  21. In understanding one’s predicament we have questions to fully understand. Are we here to encourage without understanding?
    Is stating that one has reason to beware, be careful, “instilling fear”, even if this person is already fearful?
    If I see or believe that someone is in an unstable living condition with a full-out CDN, is it out of bounds for me to express that I believe one is in a dangerous condition – even if the poster already knows this?
    I didn’t know we had these rules and that it is crossing boundaries. In view of these recent posts I feel that in order not to offend someone I cannot freely “speak” my mind.

    1. Lucy,

      I’m going to quote Dr. Simon in response to your concerns:

      Under the First Commandment of Good Character:

      “We learn that we shouldn’t tell lies, but that “white lies” are ok – even necessary sometimes. We learn how to talk, but that we shouldn’t say some words out loud. In short, we learn the rules of good social behavior. And the rules we learn are specific to the culture in which we are emersed.”

      And under the Fourth Commandment of Good Character:

      “Let a deep reverence for the truth guide you in all your thoughts and actions. This doesn’t mean it’s okay to use the truth as a weapon or to be brutal in your disclosures. You’re not obliged to share every ugly thing you know to be true. And you have no duty to reveal truths that would serve no good purpose whatsoever but to hurt someone.”

      1. I have not used or any words on this forum to be brutal or to use as a weapon or to hurt someone, as I’ve not seen anyone else use words here for that purpose. I guess everyone has their own interpretations.

        1. Lucy,

          I quoted Dr. Simon in response to your concerns regarding, “I didn’t know we had these rules and that it is crossing boundaries. In view of these recent posts I feel that in order not to offend someone I cannot freely “speak” my mind.”

          Of course we have rules and boundaries on this site and because we are disclosing our most personal and deepest struggles interpersonal boundaries are even more important here. Just because someone allows others into their most private sanctums does not imply boundaries are now down, charge ahead, say and do what you want.

          I do not recall a time where I would describe your posts as brutal truths or hurtful and have not indicated as such within the disagreement with BTOV I am having.

          I would assign the description of brutal and hurtful truths in regards to such emotionally charged words such as evil, dangerous, predator and predatory, and die and death as has been used by BTOV to me numerous times throughout recent and past posts and will apparently continue regardless of how I feel about it or how negatively impactful I indicate these words are to me.

          As you said yourself in regards to BTOV, “She says it like she sees it, no sugar coating. That’s not her style. If she sees danger she will tell you about it. ” No sugar coating and just telling it like one sees it is often used to describe, defend, and excuse brutal and hurtful truths to the recipient of said truths.

          I am disappointed that on a site meant to teach recognition of positive and negative character traits that I must work this hard to assert my distress and discomfort at having my situation characterized with such a lack of compassion and care.

  22. BTOV,

    You wrote,

    ‘Charlie,
    I will respect your and every ones right to disagree as I you should respect my right to disagree. You are entitled to say what you like as much as me. I have never responded any different to anyone I am telling you the truth of from what I hear. What you express I lived except I did not educate him. Giving him the book is a mistake. I am not budging from what I have read.’

    Let me see if I have your position straight in my mind.

    Every time I discuss or celebrate on the site that I have been empowered and shifted the uneven power dynamic in my relationship with my CD using Dr. Simon’s work via blog site or book you plan on reminding me that you disagree with my decision and the right to do so.

    Everytime I discuss the unusual and disturbing behavior of my CD you plan on reminding me that he is a predator, dangerous, and that I may die at his hands.

    Everytime I discuss how I stand up to him and do not allow fear and intimidation to limit my rights to fight for my autonomy as an individual you plan on reminding me how I should feel fear and fear should be driving my actions again so I don’t die at his hands.

    So you, with your statement of your truth, ‘I have never responded any different to anyone I am telling you the truth of from what I hear,’ you plan to continue to disagree with my choices even though I am clearly stating how your behavior, how your disagreement is negatively impacting me.

    It seems to me your truth, your disagreement has somehow become more important than my truth and my disagreement in discussions regarding the choices I deem appropriate in my life.

    As I am the one that will bear the brunt of the consequences of my actions or lack thereof, it would seem to me, I get the final say on what I believe is appropriate in my situation. Or are you suggesting that if I follow your advice, continue to spiral downwards into fear and anxiety and powerlessness and depression as well as traumatic hand washing two or more times a week after feeling emotional violated by my CD as I had been living that you will show up on my doorstep and pluck me into physical, emotional and financial safety? Are you that certain your disagreement, your opinions and your perspective which you seem to be fighting with me to absorb will place me in a much better, much safer position than my own?

    I’m going to suggest we all take a moment and reread Dr. Simon’s first commandment of character (The First Commandment: You Are Not the Center of the Universe – Be mindful of how you, your urges, your desires, and your behavior impact everyone and everything. http://www.drgeorgesimon.com/characters-first-commandment-not/ ) as none of us have the right to ‘not budge’ from a position we are being told is negatively impacting to another person.

    1. Charlie,
      The first thing we learn at the Woman’s Center is Do Not Engage, we and all who have had experiences tell the Newbies Not To Engage. In fact I suggest you find a professional counselor to help you with the private issues. There are professionals that will see you, you may need to seek them out.

      In fact I recommend the Woman’s shelter they offer many resources and woman from all walks of life participate and accept the services they offer. They are all equipped with legal advocates and counselors that you can talk to on a one on one basis or attend groups.

      You disclosed how severe your situation is and I never said anything about your husband being a psychopath or any of the other things that puts one on edge. You disclosed far more sensitive and delicate information than the little I asked you. You admit yourself how afraid you are, nothing, I have said should create fear.

      The Womans shelter will also offer you a safe place to stay, it is a very humble place where everyone is the same. A very humbling experience indeed to see mothers and children that have been brutalized by these monsters and they haven’t a dime to their names to feed their children or a place to go.

      I was asked what means more to you, your life or the money and stuff? That is a choice one must make. I have repeated just what was said to me and I have repeated this to you and to many women at the shelter and have been thanked. I do not expect thanks either, that comes with being a Christian and I am paying forward to all the people who have done the same/

      I am helping one personally from the inner city right now, puts me in danger but am glad I can help. I have said what I have said to others that have come and gone on this site. I wonder and pray if they have survived and are OK and it’s always a welcome sight when someone from the year before shows up and you see the transformation.

      Go see some of these woman who have almost died with scars that run from ear to ear, whose faces have been mangled and broken. Thats what moves me and then all the children and the crying babies. Tell a Social White Lie out of Political Correctness, Never. I am grateful for all the up front and honest people that shared the reality of truth with me. This is how we take back our society its by hearing the Truth.

      Blessings and your in my prayers

  23. Charlie said: ‘I would assign the description of brutal and hurtful truths in regards to such emotionally charged words such as evil, dangerous, predator and predatory, and die and death”

    Yep, that’s it – emotionally charged words describe it best. The first thing that many of us need is less drama. Offering a soft spot and calming words goes a long way until and if indicated otherwise.

    Our stories are full of emotion, they are our stories. We can speak truthfully about our situations. Although when we are listening to the stories of others our words should not trigger, our words should be calming and supportive.

    Charlie said: “No sugar coating and just telling it like one sees it is often used to describe, defend, and excuse brutal and hurtful truths to the recipient of said truths.”

    I have the right to discuss my situation in my own words, my own way and in my own time, that’s freedom. Although I have the responsibility to discuss your situation in your ways and style without instilling my ways onto you, that’s common decency and respect – that includes the words I choose. When I goof – I back down and make changes.

    Yes indeed there are boundaries. There are boundaries in all social situations. Freedom never works without boundaries – never.

    Charlie said: “I am disappointed that on a site meant to teach recognition of positive and negative character traits that I must work this hard to assert my distress and discomfort at having my situation characterized with such a lack of compassion and care.”

    This is the part that I don’t get. Charlie has put a lot of effort and explained in great detail. And note – she said: “my situation”. She did not say “yours” or “ours”. What is it that people don’t get?

    Dr. Simon said: “We learn that we shouldn’t tell lies, but that “white lies” are ok – even necessary sometimes. We learn how to talk, but that we shouldn’t say some words out loud. In short, we learn the rules of good social behavior. And the rules we learn are specific to the culture in which we are emersed.”

    No social system can survive without white lies. When greeting someone we ask how each other are doing. When I answer “I’m just fine” I’m usually telling a white lie. “We learn how to talk.”

    Dr. Simon said: “Let a deep reverence for the truth guide you in all your thoughts and actions. This doesn’t mean it’s okay to use the truth as a weapon or to be brutal in your disclosures. You’re not obliged to share every ugly thing you know to be true. And you have no duty to reveal truths that would serve no good purpose whatsoever but to hurt someone.”

    Again, what is it that people don’t get?

  24. The Bible
    The Ninth Commandment- Thou Shalt No Lie –

    Regardless of what you call it it is a lie.

    The devil tells white lies isn’t that how he deceived to start with? A white lie.

    This world is so full of white lies know one knows what the truth is anymore.
    It’s out of control with white/red/ blue, lies. and we then don’t know what truth is anymore. By knowingly tell others white lies we deceive.

    We all know Dr. Simon is A Christian and I don’t believe he is rewriting the bible here. Jesus strictly taught the truth to tell the truth. Jesus could had told a white lie and saved his life. He told the truth.

    God is my God and it is his commandments that I try to follow. Dr. Simon is a man a child of God and has no corner on Gods Commandments. Dr. Simon has a blog and he writes topics and is writing a book and he uses the word Commandment. As a Christian the only Commandments are Gods Commandments and Laws second to Giving unto Cesar what is his. Even the courts ask you to swear on the Bible and ask you to swear to tell the whole,, they don’t say half truths are OK, they want the truth.

    And as far as those charged words I would suggest your read all the topics they are strewn throughout this whole blog and used by almost every poster that has come here. Dr. Simon uses them himself. Should we candy coat them?

    There are going to be more posters that come using and knowing those words and should I tell them the truth or a white lie. When we are talking about life or death who wants to take responsibility for the white lie that could get someone maimed and killed. Are you going to take the responsibility or cover with a white lie.

    I will take telling the truth. The truth will set you free and the truth would set this nation free. Jesus is the truth the way and the light, and as I recall this nation was founded on Christian principles.

    I called my pastor for counsel and he is going to preach a sermon in coming weeks about this very topic white lies and lies.

    You all, have a blessed holiday and be safe on the roads.

    1. BTOV said: “ I called my pastor for counsel and he is going to preach a sermon in coming weeks about this very topic white lies and lies.“

      That will be nice.

      Be sure to tell him that if he plans on asking me how I am doing to bring a long a lawn chair and plan on sitting for a while. I won’t reply with my social answer – I’ll tell him the whole truth – so I’ve got a whole bunch of stuff to tell him.

      I’d be pretty darn traumatized, likely pushed off the edge, if a counselor decided to be totally honest and tell me what s/he perceived as the truth, especially all in one breath.

      ‘It’s all evil stuff; That person is a rotten, lousy, good for nothing _____ [fill in the blank]. That person is going to kill you. I’ve seen it before, horrible things. I know all about it and how it goes. How many times do I have to repeat it? Get it in your head something terrible is going to happen. That person is going to harm you in some way, disfigure you or kill you!’

      Then when I refuse to pay for being traumatized I am told: “well, I call it like it is. I’m a truthful person”.

      Honestly – often times the smartest person in the room doesn’t know what they don’t know.

  25. Anyone can tell me that The Jerk I’m trying to divorce is a predator if they feel he is. I can make my own mind up how I feel about it. Outsiders do tend to see sometimes what I can’t see.
    They can tell me to beware of my safety if they believe I’m in danger, from what they’ve gleaned from my posts. My roommate is afraid he might come to the house and do harm. I don’t think he will, but I am aware that his mind is distorted and maybe he will. I don’t take offense by those words. The Jerk might kill me – if he becomes desperate. I don’t think he will, but the thought lurks in my mind.
    From what I’ve read on Dr. Simon’s articles, some murders happen when the CD’s last recourse is Lose/Lose, if he loses I lose. This is where my real fear of harm comes from, in reading the articles on win/win/, win/lose/ , lose/win/ and lose/lose. In the lose/lose, In that situation the CD will kill the spouse and then kills himself. I’m aware of this. Dr. Simon writes about it.
    Anyone else stating this is not, to me, brutal or irresponsible. If someone else is alarmed by what I post, state it like you see it. It might heighten my awareness of the situation. But the fear is already there. I heed warnings. If someone sees something alarming in my posts that I’m not seeing, please tell me. I can handle it. I am handling it.
    I understand Charlie is offended and hurt and harmed by those words and I will never use them in response to her situations.
    In my case, you have free reign to tell me as you see it.

    1. Lucy,

      “If someone sees something alarming in my posts that I’m not seeing, please tell me.”

      Awesome comment! That’s how to say it without harming others. You spoke your truth and you owned it.

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