Relationship Intimacy Requires Connection

Relationship Intimacy

Few relationships these days achieve the depth necessary to sustain them. Depth in a relationship requires intimate connection with your partner, and on multiple levels. Of course, this is particularly hard to achieve when one partner is character-impaired.

I’ve worked with many couples over the years. And it was always a bit heartbreaking to witness a relationship unravel. (Wresting free from abuse being the exception.) Unfortunately, too often couples seek therapy after their relationship has already deteriorated significantly. That makes any repair difficult. But I have seen my fair share of salvaged relationships. And one thing always seemed to characterize them: how deep and mature the connection between the parties was. Relationship intimacy makes all the difference.

Types and Levels of Relationship Intimacy

The types and degrees of interpersonal connections vary. Of course, some connections exist at the purely physical or “chemistry” level. Connections can also be made at the intellectual, emotional level, or even “practical,” lifestyle-based level. The strength of any of these kinds of connections can vary. So can the quality of connection (i.e. level of depth). Connections made at a purely superficial level are generally short-lived. (That doesn’t mean they can’t be intense!) And, generally speaking, how deep and genuine the connection is has a lot to do with whether a relationship will endure through hardship and be an instrument of fulfillment for both parties or eventually fail.

Many couples report that at the onset of their relationship the strongest connection they felt was the on the physical level. Now, physical attraction and passion are certainly important to a relationship. But many a relationship has failed because “chemistry” unduly dominated all the other kinds of connections so essential to an enduring relationship. Overly-intense physical attraction generally produces distorted perceptions. A partner might “over-idealize” the other, or ascribe attributes to them that they don’t actually have. They also might tend to overlook or ignore signs of problematic character attributes. But distorted perceptions don’t always stem from physical infatuation. For example, one partner in the relationship can be so lacking in self-esteem and so overwhelmed by the attention and perceived approval they get from the other partner that they allow the intensity of that particular emotional connection to overrule their better judgment about other aspects of the relationship.

Intimate Relationships that Endure

For relationships to really work and endure, connections have to develop and deepen on multiple levels. And just how deep and mature these connections become over time has a big bearing on the level of fulfillment relationship partners experience. Of course, the right ingredients have to be present for this to happen. So it’s a good idea to ask yourself some key questions right from the outset:

How does my partner connect with me on an intellectual level?

Are me and my partner intellectual equals? Do we have similar ideas about the world and how it works? Does he/she really understand me?

How do we connect on an emotional level?
Can I confide my deepest feelings to this person in confidence? Does she/he demonstrate respect for my feelings through his/her actions? Is he/she emotionally stable (i.e. knows how to and regularly modulates and regulates his/her emotions)?
How do we connect at the psychological level?
Do we “get” each other – our quirks, idiosyncrasies, and other “issues”? Are we aware of each other’s unique personality characteristics and can we live with our differences? Do we share the same sense of humor? Do we truly honor, respect, and enjoy the kind of persons we are?
What is our spiritual connection like?
Do we share the same core values? Can we respect one another’s beliefs? Do any of our attitudes, ways of thinking, or values challenge our ability to like, accept, or respect one another?
How well do we communicate?
Does he hear me when I’m expressing concern? Do I always feel like she is keeping things from me? Is there always room for dialogue or does every discussion soon become a fight?
How do we connect at the practical level?
Can we be comfortable with the things each of us likes or prefers? Do we share enough of the same interests to spend quality time together? Do we have enough regard for our different interests that we can afford each other private space? Are our most ingrained habits compatible and endurable or are they so distasteful and irritating that they constantly grate on us?
How meaningfully do we connect?
Do we really touch one another, feel one another, experience one another at the heart-to-heart level. And if we do, does that connection makes us feel truly valued and embraced?
Growing Relationship Intimacy

You have to connect on as many levels as possible and with proper balance to develop the the degree of intimacy necessary to make your relationship  survive and blossom. And true, deep intimacy is the time-tested glue for any enduring relationship. That kind of relationship intimacy demands that we not only connect with our partner on the levels mentioned above but that we do it often, and with sincerity and depth.

The emotional baggage we bring with us into a relationship (as well as some of our personality traits) impacts our capacity for developing this kind of relationship intimacy. Various stresses, fears, distractions, etc. can also interfere with establishing the connections necessary to foster intimacy. Sometimes, you really have to work hard at the process of connecting. But in the end, it’s always the connections we establish and maintain that holds our relationships together and deepens the regard we have for those we love. To have a relationship that truly satisfies — a relationship that nurtures, help us grow, and ultimately bring us joy — we simply have to connect.

Other Matters

I’ll have more to say about relationship intimacy issues in some future posts. And you might want to check out the articles on troubled relationships, too. See:

Shame, Guilt Regret, Remorse, and Contrition

What Real Contrition Looks Like

Contrition, Behavior, and Therapy

The Importance of Making Amends

Character Matters will feature a rebroadcast of an earlier program this New Years Eve.

Happy New Year, everyone!


128 thoughts on “Relationship Intimacy Requires Connection

  1. Dr. Simon, I’ve learned so much from your books and articles. The natural progression in your work brings me so much comfort and inspiration. Time is poetry.

    My husband will read this tonight at work on his break, as he does every week. We’ll discuss it over coffee tomorrow. There is a rhythm and flow to our decades-long love that has made life beyond rich. He’s an answer to my prayers. His beautiful mind, heart and soul have steadied me in the face of some exquisite pain and darkness. He believes, understands, thinks and loves deeply. He is a true friend. I am proud to be his woman. I so love that man on so many levels.

    We’ve decided 2018 is our year. No more of our time and energy will be sucked into the abyss of the dedicated character disturbed. There’s too much good in this meaningful life that requires our focus and care. No more wasted time and effort. It is our turn. Love wins.

    Thanks for your truth and generosity Dr. Simon. You are a gem. Such a beautiful soul.

    Happy New Year!

    1. I will never ask why again. It really is about the behavior, not their motivation/rationalization.

      “You do this for its own sake, even when it serves no purpose except to give you a thrill. Making people jump means you have power – or this is the way you see it – and bullying provides you with an adrenaline rush. It is fun.

      … this is power, especially when the people you manipulate are superior to you in some way. Most invigorating of all is to bring down people who are smarter or more accomplished than you, or perhaps classier, more attractive or popular or morally admirable. This is not only good fun; it is existential vengeance.”
      Martha Stout

      n. The method employed by one’s opponents in baffling one’s open and honorable efforts to do the right thing.

      So plain the advantages of machination
      It constitutes a moral obligation,
      And honest wolves who think upon’t with loathing
      Feel bound to don the sheep’s deceptive clothing.
      So prospers still the diplomatic art,
      And Satan bows, with hand upon his heart.

      “The proper path of life is to take the tradition and spirit that is associated with consciousness as such and to act it out in your own personal life in a way that is analogous with the way Christ acted it out in his life. What that means in part is the acceptance of the tragic preconditions of existence. That’s partly: betrayal by friends and by family and by the state, it’s partly punishment for sins that you did not commit (the arbitrary nature of justice), and the fact of finitude. Your duty, and the way to set things right in the cosmos is to accept all those details as necessary preconditions for being and to act virtuously despite all that. That’s a very, very powerful idea.”
      Dr. Jordan Peterson

      Time is poetry. Character matters. Here’s to more truth and love in 2018. Cheers all!

      1. Aishiteru

        I like Jordon Perterson. He is an Orator of Carl Jung. Jung was a man before his time. He is the Zarathustra (Friedrich Nietzsche)

        1. Joey
          He’s really uplifting- his mind is incredible. Really pulls it all together and makes me see through new eyes. HNY!!!

          1. Joey,
            Yes I did, it is a favorite. Surviving betrayal is a wild freakin ride. Being human is such an incredible adventure, especially for a fool like me!

            A whole world in 12 minutes.

            Mind blowingingly good stuff. Life. Boom.

            Do you have a poem for the new year?

  2. I think my own challenge, is when my family were the examples I had for both friendships and intimate relationships, and the example was very much less than stellar, my mother, it was “Nope, other people are not safe” (male or female, everyone is out to get what I have), and my father, well recovery has produced a very different person, thankfully-the questions I have of what he did during the days before recovery, were drastically different, I do not, however, think it was 100% the alcohol, I just can’t. But I know the person now too, I guess-I cannot agree with choices he made, or even respect the choices, but I can have compassion for the man who made them.

    The effect on my life of this kind of parent, is the terror of intimacy-on any level. It was never “safe” and undoing a lifetime of that is not going to be easy. If I don’t, though, then she wins. And I am definitely not giving that one up.

    1. JC

      With alcohol it just exacerbates their own unhealed trauma and they become more volatile to being triggered and when they are triggered watch out.

      Undoing a lifetime of false beliefs is easier than you think JC. I’m doing it and so are many others -wink-

      Have a very happy new year EVERYBODY!

      1. Happy New Year!!!!

        Quit smoking (cigarettes) ;-)

        Work is going great! Love my job-I prefer to stock shelves rather than work in nursing.

        But my passion is nutrition-and I start school on the 8th, I think-for my MS in the subject.

        The longer I don’t, the more I am paying for someone else’s shortcomings-does not matter who they are.

        1. JC,

          Missed your post, Happy New Year to you too.

          You quit smoking, “Wonderful” get through one day at a time, or just one urge at a time and as each day passes, pat yourself on the back and build momentum. Don’t forget a little reward for each benchmark you make. I know you can do it. In the end you will love yourself for the rewards you will glean from quiting and becoming healthier.

          I have set goals for myself too, I make a happy face on my calendar each day. I also keep a journal of my accomplishments and how I am feeling. I have done this for years and when I look back and read, I know how far I have come.

          In fact JC, you have come a long way since you first started posting. Being a nurse today is not what it used be. The true nursing of yesteryear has changed significantly, in that the nurses spend more time charting than actual time taking care of the patient. I think nutrition is the way of the future too, especially, in the field of homeopathic, natural herbal remedies. I say go for it, full steam ahead.

          I know you said you are paying for someone else’s shortcomings. I am going to kindly add some thoughts to this. Yes, we pay for for being victimized, we lose a lot. However, I believe we need to look to the root cause, which is dysfunction or generational sin, which tends to repeat and repeat until the cycle is broken.

          This is where we stop paying for someone else’s shortcomings. We alone decide to accept to keep paying as you say or to stop paying by refusing that which does not belong to us. We first decide to own it all and deal with it, flush the lies out of you, store away the memories that keep you trapped, stomp the pain, throw away the unneeded useless garbage that isn’t true, lies which we were made to believe and truly become whole. It can be done. I say this for you and for myself.

          JC, the true power lies in us alone and it is up to us to take responsibility for change. We can exorcise those lies and be free, the lies are not part of our authentic self, they never were, they were deposited onto us and we in all innocence believed them.

          JC, letting go of these lies and false beliefs about ourselves will set us free, truly free to be ourselves. I can guarantee, you will be amazed at who you find beneath the layers. You are a beautiful, caring, loving woman, and your day to shine is in your grasp.

          JC, when you can and I think you would benefit enormously from it, check out Melonie Tonia Evans who Eudox talks about. I think it will help you immensely, in fact, I plan to in the near future too. It’s relatively cheap, this would be a great investment in yourself. We are all rooting for you……

          Be well dear one, hugs and keep up the good fight.

    2. JC,

      There’s been a lot of noise and conflict here, so I’d like to take this up with you directly, if that’s alright with you.

      I don’t know you or your parents, only what you’ve posted here, and it honestly hurt to read it. I love my son so deeply, but he cannot see it. He hates me, sees me as the enemy and I will probably bury him soon. I am powerless to change his chaos and destruction. That’s a lot for a mom to carry around everyday.

      I do not know your status with substance abuse. I don’t care. The part I care about is that I hope you heal. I hope you treat yourself and your people right. I hope you find and make peace with your family. You talk about them a lot. I understand carrying around family stuff is some heavy baggage. My mom was a speed freak who lost her mind and my dad became an alcoholic. They were really hard to love sometimes. But I did. I still do. And I have no regrets. When they died, there was a lot I could’ve held onto and hated. Resenting them and being a victim would’ve destroyed me. They were messed up folks, but so is everyone. I’d rather love them and take my own inventory.

      I hope you don’t give up on God and other people. I hope you find some peace and a way to trust in what’s good and true and possible. I wish you strength and clarity to make it happen around you. Then I hope you share it with someone else.

      I wish you love JC. I’m sorry I didn’t say that in the first place.

  3. One thing I would say about Alcohol; you loose those inhibitions. “That is just it”
    It makes you what you truly are. I dealt with three guys who came into the pub I was in. I got them to leave. They had, had ALOT to drink AND I DO MEAN ALOT. BUT ? all they wanted to do IS LOVE YOU MAN. I LOVE YOU MAN. Over the top, But friendly. Good GUYS.
    Hammered, But good.
    Same night, A guy walks in with his sister( SHE WAS LOVELY) He was CD, I new it soon as he opened his mouth, “in 2 seconds” I NEW.
    I got him to go as well.

    ” JOEY DOES NOT DRINK ALCOHOL ANY MORE” I have given up drinking. I still go out but NO MORE BOOZE. I feel so much better for It.

    (Off topic. I am selling my appart ment, It will take about a year to do, It needs work done and that take money)
    (Also I have met someone, It might go some were, we just talk. I will take it slowly and see. She is covered in tatoos and is unique. Nice lady. I will see)

    I think you got to get to know yourself better, Your capcity for bad and good( That is why I do not drink any more, Plus I am now getting older, I an’nt 21 yrs old any more.
    I am soon to be 50. Things have to change weather I like it or not.

    Be Good



    1. Joey,

      Beware of quiet Borderlines they are not the same as classic borderlines and a lot more subtle. I know you know a lot about them but seriously Joey when they love bomb you you think you are in seventh heaven and have met our soul mate.

      I KNOW you KNOW what to look out for. It’s just in the love bombing stage of a CD we are flabbergasted and WOW. We start pumping out oxytocin in droves and after surging adrenaline and cortisol it’s like a breath of fresh air.

      What we are actually doing is falling in love with love and from my own personal experience with this we project all of our good traits onto them and they reflect it back to us until the devaluation starts.

      In reality and this may wound weird we are falling in love with ourselves. Because what we love about them doesn’t belong to them it belongs to us – they are just mimicking us.

      Joey I don’t detract in any way from your knowledge of these freaks but when it comes to love bombing man – they can get under your skin and into your heart. In saying that in consideration of what I now know, they may not be able to get away with it and it’s entirely probable I will see through them but I missed it then.

      I hope Joey this lady is all you could ever possibly want and in the right way and she isn’t disordered. I do get a feeling you will know deep down if that’s the case and let’s hope it’s not.

      Happy New Year Joey and all the very best for you in 2018 and beyond!

      1. I met “J” three weeks ago. We talked for about an hour. I met BY ACCIDENT her again on saturday. We talked for an hour or so. She gave me a hug,and other friends of HERS the same. She so far is ok. I watch her actions not her intentions.

        I will say I bumped into a friend of another lady I asked out. (The one that did not phone;”HER CHOICE”) I get the impression I am being sort of tracked. “Were I socialize”

        I whent home alone on new years eve. Which in hindsight, IS A GOOD THING. Lots of families and friends in the new pub I go to. That was just It, ” I was alone that night” and so what.


        I am soon to be 50, a new year is here and SPRING IS ON THE WAY, AND THAT MEANS LONGER DAYS.

        1. Joey,

          Tread carefully and observe all those small nuances of gestures, speech, tone, what they say and do and so on. We can let our guard for a moment and the subtle creatures slowly draw us in. Point is, many times our emotions can blind us. I just had this done to me, however, I was guarded and it took them several months before there was a slip. I did not let my emotional self be drawn in.

          Joey, as you know from the past, even here on this site, we have had the CD slip by many and we are the ones who should smell them out immediately, however, the CD still slip by. As Dr. Simon’s book is appropriately named: In Sheeps Clothing and we are unaware until its time to feed.


        2. Joey,

          It doesn’t matter if she has tatoos that is not necessarily a sign of anything. Depends on whose got them. Have you seen a movie called Stranger than Fiction?

          It’s a quirky little movie, it’s got some good plots in it but it’s about a baker who falls in love with an IRS agent who goes to audit her – it’s a totally feel good movie. The baker is covered in tats but she’s got an amazing heart.

          Trust you intuition Joey.

    2. Joey,

      I am glad you are doing so well and making positive decisions. I hope all goes well if selling your apartment is what will make you happy. For many drinking can obfuscate ones inner feelings and you are wise to understand this and work on yourself. It is important in life for one to “know thyself” regardless, at what stage one is in in life, of importance is to do it.

      Joey, I think you will uncover many hidden feelings and assets you never realized before, take hold of them and be the best you can be. It is never to late for this, however, realizing to late one is alive but never lived is sad.

      Keep going Joey, you have a great head on your shoulders and are above all a man of character and this is a quality many are lacking. I stayed home too, enjoyed the time and before I knew it the new year was ushered in.
      I wish you peace, joy and many blessing my adopted brother.
      Be well and God bless

  4. One thing I have learned from reading Dr.Simon and through various life experiences is an ability to spot a ‘gloater,’ a mile away.

    People who talk about how wonderful, close their family or other relationships are and lay it on REALLY thick, knowing full well that others are completely alone at this time of year, are playing a transparent game. All the sugar coating doesn’t disguise it, it highlights the fact.

    I HAD a friend years ago who never missed an opportunity to yammer on and on about her loving family, her close siblings yadayadayada. She did this knowing full well, I was estranged from all of my sisters at the time and I was hurting.

    This was just one game this individual played before I tore her mask off publicly and went ‘no contact.’

    1. Lisa

      As the Irish would say “to be sure, to be sure”. Sickly sweet fluffy words doesn’t mask the underlying malice anymore than putting lipstick on a pig does. The masks are slipping big time eh? These necros can’t hide anymore. Inauthenticity oozes out of their pores in bucket loads.

      I took one down on Christmas Day, the freak was trying to gaslight me. I don’t take too kindly to gaslighting and sorted it out the minute she started and I did it well too in front of a few people. I saw her last night and she wasn’t very happy. She wasn’t the center of everyone’s attention and no matter where she went nobody was giving her much of anything including their energy.

      Because they can only be a certain way – they can’t be any other way due to their particular pathology and they are getting easier and easier to spot. They are actually very bad actors and many people can sense them (we can) and those who can’t intrinsically know there is something “not quite right” or off about them.

      There is a massive interpersonal and colllective awakening happening right now and it’s just picking up momentum. I am seeing it everywhere. 2018 The Chinese Year of the Dog – what are dogs good at – sniffing out and finding things that are hidden. Problem for them is they can’t hide too easily these days where once they could. Their time in the sun is done. Now there is a huge spotlight on them.

      High Five and Happy New Year Lisa!

      1. Yep Eudoxia, very transparent. In the case of my elder sister, it isn’t usually malice but complete indifference to the plights of others.

        She isn’t a gloater, per se, but her insensitivity is mind boggling. She’s a vulnerable narcissist. She has a huge problem with me because I am open and honest AND…more than anything, I can see through her.

        She knows this and it makes her skin crawl. And this all takes place through body language and subtle expression. I haven’t confronted her with it. What would be the point?

        Anything remotely resembling criticism and she throws a complete flaming psycho, like the Tasmanian devil. If I ever voiced that I don’t think she’s sincere, she’d do a full Rumplestitlskin.

        There really is no point in trying to drive home to her how much she has hurt me, in the past, because I really don’t care anymore.

        For some reason, I have had more than my fair share of insincerity in my life….and have usually blown it off. No more. Also, people just not listening to simple requests.

        A few months ago, I was very sick for a stretch of about a month. A friend, (who I don’t know very well) called me and I told her I would phone her back as soon as I could, as I was too ill to talk.

        The woman phoned me three more times and got the same response from me. She decided to drop by my house, as an alternative, after the last call. My lungs were full of fluid. I was wheezing and panting trying to speak. She sat in my dining room for a good 15 minutes before leaving.


        1. LisaO,

          Perhaps, the woman was concerned since you are alone and thought you may need help. Many times, having been neglected in the past and or our needs having been overlooked and minimized we can forget what its like to have someone show genuine concern. The woman may have stopped over wanting to make sure you were OK, or perhaps, you may have needed something at the store.

          I don’t know, there are many possibilities, she might be a nurturing empath like we are.

        2. LisaO
          Your friend was checking in on your well being. It’s what good people do. It may seem weird to you, perhaps you haven’t experienced what kind caring people do when they are concerned with an ill friend. This is a lady who reached out to you, for your sake. We can all use more friends like her and also be a friend like her.
          Have you got pneumonia? I sure hope not. Dang. What a way to start the year.

          1. Lucy,

            It’s possible she was trying to help but I have to listen to my gut on this one. I am so used to ignoring my intuition and giving people the benefit of the doubt.

            I feel since I met her that she has been telling me all of these one sided stories about her life and I have felt so incredibly sorry for her. I found out recently, purely by happenstance, that these stories are largely untrue.

            I have to keep my distance with people who aren’t honest.

          2. Lucy,

            From what I can see her friend was imposing. If you have pneumonia you are really, really sick. If she was told by Lisa that she’d call her back a real caring person would accept that and leave her be.

            Calling 3 times Lisa would have to get up from resting to answer the call – 3 times. Then coming over despite her being told Lisa wanted to rest is imposing on another.

            Also what else to narcs love to do – impose on others and drain our life forces further. Narcs love it when we are in a debilitated state. They love it when they consider us in a one down position.

            Lisa has to listen to her gut instincts we all do.

          3. LisaO,

            Thank you for expanding on the story, this part makes all the difference in what I think. Go with your gut, it is rarely wrong, it feels what our mind covers and doesn’t see, its our primal instinct and it has served man well. I know when I ignored it, I got myself royally in a trap. We can’t afford these kind of errors in judgement, especially, when we have a inbuilt alarm system.

        3. Lisa,

          “She has a huge problem with me because I am open and honest AND…more than anything, I can see through her”

          Exactly, they hate people who can express themselves openly and honestly. They are envious and wish to take us down because of it. From where I sit today and looking back, it seemed whenever I was really having a good time or too happy BF (bitch face – former best friend) would do anything in her power to make sure I copped a hit. Little digs and constant poison arrows so subtle that nobody but the intended victim gets it.

          They seriously all need to stop breathing.

    2. LisaO,

      Love your post, sure nailed it and saw it for what it is. Hmm…., all those CD professing the good life (White Lies) they tell to all, trying to make others feel bad. These kind of individuals are some sick puppies, perhaps, they are rabid dogs. Sounds like you have my sisters, YUK, I can do without the toxic varmints. They tend to leave a trail of oozing slime so I am glad when they slither back into their putrid black holes.

      I am glad you now tear the masks off these parasitic leeches, job well done.

      Big Hugs to you Kindred Spirit and I pray you have many blessings and a Happy, Healthy New Year

      1. BTOV – classic!

        Nice one I couldn’t have said it better myself – falsity just oozes from them. Little digs, little nasty under handed communications designed to put others into guilt and shame while professing to be all sunshine and goodness. They are so suffering from arrogance and hubris they fail to see others can see right through them.

        Do you notice – anybody who is incapable of speaking from the heart can’t explain things as they relate to them in their own words. They have to copy and paste stuff.

        My ex narc would do this to no doubt show me how brilliant he was. All I saw was a frozen adult child trying to come across as something he just isn’t and was obvious. But stupid and unconscious enough to the extent he didn’t appear to acknowledge the fact that perhaps I was not as stupid as he’d like and I can see through his b/s.

        Deary me guys, I was watching Harry Potter the other night, my friend gave me the whole series. I’ve never seen it before and I’m loving it. It shows some really good narcs and some really good narc busting strategies. I’ve put one to the test and it works a charm!

        They are so fkcguni arrogant. I go with Harry Potter’s strategy – just blow them up LOL

        1. Arrogance REALLY shines through in text. Don’t know why this is, maybe because text is a slightly more formal way of communicating to begin with! But if an arrogant, self righteous pill thinks others won’t pick up on it they’re mistaken. And, they appear kind of silly , as being arrogant indicates one is marinating in their own absurdity

          1. “marinating in their own absurdity” BEAUTIFUL!

            Their self righteous drum beating and high moral standards (puke) are not only figments of their imagination but are so bloody well transparent you can’t miss em. It’s like being hit by a bus LOL

            They stand out like dogs balls. “Look at me – I’M A NARC”

      2. Yes, Btov,

        Hmmmm…for sure! Had a very interesting conversation with my older sister before the holidays. She’s another syrupy perfectionist. I listened to her talk on and on about her wonderful son and how well he is doing (of course) her great life, all the trips she has been on and her plans for ever more vacations. She finished up with her plans for Christmas. I waited…and for the third year in a row, since my husband died, she didn’t ask me what I was doing for Christmas.

        This is the same person who is always talking about family, reaching out, supporting, blah blah blah.
        She knows I can’t travel so she and her family would have to come here….but that’s not going to happen.
        At this point, I wouldn’t want it to. Sooo…after much thinking about how to deal with her, I have decided to go, “no contact.”

        That’s it. I am done. The fact that I am willing to talk to her on the phone will be giving her the wrong impression. Plus, though she does all the talking and sympathy seeking, she probably feels by virtue of the fact that she picks up the phone to call me, she is “supporting me.” What a drip.

        That’s it. My Christmas gift to myself and New Years resolution is to get her right out of my life.

        1. LisaO,

          Great decision, believe me you won’t regret it. It is a wonderful and relieving feeling when we can put this sort of person out of our lives. Believe me they only take hold of our precious energy, time and space. Nothing lost and everything to gain.

          I think the most despicable of the CDN are the ones that dribble psychobabble content, all the while pointing a finger at others when in fact they are the culprits they are talking about. Sad as it is, so many of these “Disordered” truly think others are the sick ones.

          LisaO, I have listened to conversations by these CDN and it can be hilarious to know how deranged they are, all the while they are spilling their slanderous ooze and pointing fingers at others when in fact it is themselves they are discussing. Truly, its like listening to a one man show of Abott & Costello and the Three Stooges at the same time.

          I know it is painful when it is family who are the CDN we have to cut loose and go NC. Shedding oneself of these parasitic vampires is truly liberating in the end. Believe me, you will wonder why on earth you didn’t cut the cord sooner.

          Touche Kindred Sister, another CDN bites the dust………

          1. Thank you BTOV,

            It will be a real load off. She has, at various times been judgemental to the point of cruelty, which I dismissed due to her low E.Q.

            She has been dismissive and really nasty. It is such a shame. She’s a conflicted mess under this veneer of perfection and judgement.

            But…here’s the thing. She would NEVER say anything negative to another family member about me. So when I mentioned to one of my brothers some years ago, all of the nasty things she has come out with, he didn’t believe me!

            I always got the, “well, she never says one mean thing about you. And you know what she said? She said she thinks you HATE her, Lisa. And she doesn’t know why!!” What a game — playing the innocent wounded little bird.

            Recently the same brother had a run in with her, possibly a first. He couldn’t get over it. He said she went completely ballistic….screaming, yelling, really berserko. Now he believes me….finally.

            My mother, when she was alive, also said things like, “elder sister would never say that to you, Lisa, because she isn’t that cruel. You must have misinterpreted.”

            This has been a nightmare of smoke and mirrors.

          2. LisaO,

            Perhaps, the woman was concerned since you are alone and thought you may need help. Many times, having been neglected in the past and or our needs having been overlooked and minimized we can forget what its like to have someone show genuine concern. The woman may have stopped over wanting to make sure you were OK, or perhaps, you may have needed something at the store.

            I don’t know, there are many possibilities, she might be a nurturing empath like we are.

          3. LisaO,

            When the CDN dosn’t show their hand to others when they are mind-F*^*&ing you, they are some underhanded, malicious, contemplating, covert manipulators. I have had this done too, the CDN is covering all bases for future damage control. This way the CDN makes you look like the CD one.

            I have seen this happen on this blog too, by CD individuals toying with and I am sure the CDN SB is getting a sick kick out of pulling the wool over someones eyes by conning one to think they are one of us.

            Yes, there are many tells in who an individual is by what a person writes, be it a CDN or a normal person. Always let prior experience guide you until you know for sure. The trolls are always trolling for a new host.

  5. To all

    I hated that job, and I clung to that job. Ten years in a place without heat, six years at a job I felt stuck in. Maybe I was afraid of change. Are you?

    When I was 29, I told myself, the next acting job I get, no matter what it pays, I will, from now on, for better or worse, be a working actor. Now I didn’t have either the Internet, or a cell phone, or a job. But something good happened. I got a low-paying theater job in a play called Imperfect Love, which led to a film called 13 Moons, with the same writer, which led to other roles, which led to other roles. I’ve worked as an actor ever since. I didn’t know that would happen.

    At 29, walking away from data processing, I was terrified, but this made me very hungry, literally. I couldn’t be lazy. Now I tell this story, because the world might say you are not allowed to yet. Please don’t even bother asking. Don’t bother telling the world you are ready. Show it. Do it. Trust me, the rhythm sets in. Just try not to wait until, like me, you’re 29 before you find it. And if you are, that’s fine, too. Some of us never find it, but you will. I promise you.

    Raise the rest of your life to meet you. Don’t search for defining moments, because they will never come. The moments that define you have already happened, and they will already happen again. Don’t wait until they tell you you are ready. Get in there. I waited a long time out in the world before I gave myself permission to fail.

    What did Beckett say? “Ever tried, ever failed, no matter, try again, fail again, fail better.” The world is yours. Treat everyone kindly, and light up the night.

    Thank you so much for having me here.

    – Peter Dinklage

    1. Joey, I am so proud of you. Thank you for your words of wisdom, please don’t forget me when you become a star.

      1. I posted because it is about moving forward. Wheather an actor,an engineer,or just braking free of some controlling. Just find IT

  6. My New Year’s Resolution,

    To not be “long suffering” anymore. To accept the things I cannot change and just move on, without stressing out about it.

    To accept that I have been abandoned by family and when I try to rework that fact in my own mind it only reassures THEM — but am fooling myself.

    I accept that abandonment is a part of life and it’s worse for some people. I also accept it is not my fault.

    I am not responsible for the wreckage and misery that is my family of origin and it isn’t up to me to fix them or make excuses for them.

    But over and above that, it is not up to me to change their minds about who I am. I have flaws that are amenable to change. They have disorders which are not.

    1. Lisa,

      I’m replying in the wrong spot here – the first part of this comment is in answer to your previous post.

      Your sister sounds very similar to mine. Mine is younger and she’d spy and me and stalk me with my friends then go and dob on me to my parents. My father would always lecture her on this as she ended up being totally ostracized from the entire group of kids we would hang out with. My father nick named her “Little Dobbie”. He would often also say to her that her lack of loyalty would get her into trouble one day………………jaws music.

      I was the black sheep the scapegoat and you know I’m actually glad because it seems the black sheep are the empaths as many have reported.

      She also became expert in projection identification. She still does this today. I’ve seen her in action she’s a nasty piece of work. Her own son has moderate contact with her and will not allow her under his roof. I can see why – I won’t allow her under mine either and should never have let her stay there the second time. She’s well and truly on her own now and I don’t care if a never see her again. I’ll raise a toast to just that :-

      It’s good you are doing so well Lisa. Your resolution sounds extremely emotionally mature. It’s the only way to deal with FOO issues. We can’t choose our family. But we can choose to have nothing further to do with them as THEY ARE NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY. That’s the part that is important for us to get – our responsibility is to ourselves.

      We are fully responsible for how we show up in the world and they are responsible for how they show up in the world and if they want to show up as C.U.N.T.S. so be it. We get to put our NSU caps on -wicked grin-

      Operation Starve them out of Existence is being executed and is in implementation phase. They can be whoever they want to be, but I don’t have to feed them or even notice them. I shall just fart in their general direction as Monty Python would say.


    2. LisasO

      You’re a strong woman my friend. That’s a tough one, when it’s your own family.
      I hope you’re feeling better and getting the care you need.

  7. Dear A Team -wink-

    I am about to post a second letter I wrote to HG Tudor. I am really glad I listened to him, I learned a great deal about their inner world from a dark one’s side of the fence. I have had to alter several words in order to make it politically correct for here anyway. Where there should be a word starting with C I’ve changed it to K. Tudor loves acronyms he’s made up hundreds. I hope you enjoy the letter and good kick out of it. I know I enjoyed writing it! :-

  8. One more thing I hope everybody here is familiar with the term “hoovering” that’s when a narc comes back for a second bite of the cheery by sucking up. When the former one I was involved with the last time came back for a hoover I not only ignored him, but refused to acknowledge his existence. I was not triggered by his presence in any way, shape or form, he simply had no power over me. It was just grand!

      1. Lucy,

        Yes the dreaded hoovering. It’s a term not used by psychiatry or psychology it is a term used by life coaches who have all been on the receiving end of narc abuse.

        Having listened to hundreds of hours of talks by life coaches makes a huge difference to understanding how CD slime us and the underhanded means they do so. Most people generally know what gaslighting is. But the term covert manipulation is very broad and consists of a basket of strategies.

        I made my mind up nearly 2 years ago that I would undertake to know all I can about these freaks and I read everything I could get my hands on. Many different books by many different authors. I listened to all the really good life coaches some of whom have interviewed Dr Simon. I listened to all of Sam Varknin’s (malignant narc) talks and HD Tudor (NSpath). I even booked a consult with Tudor.

        As I only have control over myself I am leaving nothing to chance. People who have been in long term relationships with narcs and who continue to attract narcs have unhealed wounds within them that are unconscious. It are those unhealed apects of ourselves that allow narcs to get their hooks into us. They operate with cold empathy. Meaning they can sense our wounding but use it to their advantage to rob us of our life force.

        This is why I signed up with NARP – I am doing it to hoover myself and I’ve found some real beauties hidden in the backstreets of my subconscious. This is why I am not allowing them to get away with their b/s anymore. I will stand my ground and will not mess around.

        I don’t care if they like me or not or if anybody like’s me or not. Their opinion of me has nothing to do with who I am. I defy any of them to try to get to me from this point in time because not only can I see them very clearly I know how to disarm them.

        Investment in self – time and knowledge pays off.

        1. Lucy – to specifically clarify “word salad” is a term I believe originally coined in psychiatry that was relative to the psychobable of schizophrenics.

          However, it is equally as applicable to narcs when they start to go into swings and roundabouts explanations in order to cause confusion or get off the hook for something they’ve been caught doing. Or they start yammering on about irrelvant off topic subjects as a means to distract their target from their objective which is generally trying to hold the narc to account for their actions or come to an understanding.

          I’m sure if you go back to certain conversations with SB you will remember times when you walked away more confused than you were when you first addressed the subject. Normal people wish to get closure to issues and problems. Narcs refuse to provide any form of closure or resolution to anything and use word salad as a high priority deflective strategy to avoid exposure.

          All victims and targets of CD should be very familiar with this terminology. Knowing all their tricks is vital. Our very survival depends on it. If we can’t recognise a narc strategy then we are up shit creek when it comes to the next one. Because their will be more, you can count on it.

          1. Eudox,
            Thanks for the explanation. I have had a full course of full blown Covert Narc for 25+ years. It all makes sense to me now. I’ve got his number. It won’t happen to me again, ever. I mean never. I understand it fully.

          2. Yes Eudoxia. You nailed it! Psychosis can produce something that sounds almost like Glossalia or linguistic leaps and or fractures that can sound almost like atypical poetry.
            But the highly skilled manipulative masters of syntax: the intelligent Narc will lasso you with strings of intentional confusion to bring you down. They don’t communicate. They dominate.

        2. I may check out that NARP. But at the moment I just want to be simple and not think about so much. I’m kind of tired.

          1. Lucy/Lisa/BTOV et all………

            Seriously I’ve learned more from life coaches than I have from psychology. I am in no way exaggerating this when it comes to revealing narc strategies. You have major AH HUH moments and you really start to heal once you realise the illusion they offered you in the form of gaslighting induced unsanity (and I say unsane deliberately).

            The life coaches know the score inside and out – they’ve live it. Yea sure I’ve learned a lot from main stream psychology but nothing like the uplift that comes from listening to the many life coaches out there.

            From where I sit today, I did not just stick with one tac – I took many. From basic psychology and psychiatry – Dr Simon really nails it when it comes to character disturbance. But there are so many other components that come together to expand our awareness. From early childhood development psychologists and life coaches and others who look at these bizzare creatures from totally different perspectives.

            It’s a narc burger with the works and if we miss one ingredient we can bring the house down on ourselves!

            Lisa – do your research on 5HTP I live with a naturopath, she lives downstairs and she swears by it. Trust your own instincts Lisa – nobody else!

            We have another huge storm coming in right about now, I am battening down the hatches. Keep warm you guys in the freeze.

            Sending a big hug to you!

  9. Dear HG,

    I must add something to your instructional post regarding Hoovering as I have now come to a realization.

    Narcissists don’t exist.

    My dear HG the fact you are able to hoover or indeed seduce and devalue may very well be applicable to some but not all cases from now on. Let me explain why. From my perspective I have the ultimate control here in so much as I have deemed all narcissists non existent. If you do not exist you can not hoover me under any circumstances, although you may feel free to try.

    During the Supernova process something else happens you see that makes us totally FREE. We are able to fully deconstruct the narcissist making it (as you are only a construct stolen from others) non existent. Not only that but we get to claim all our missing parts back that you stole. Not only are we able to reclaim our own missing parts, we are also able to heal the wounded parts within ourselves that the narcissist (YOU) reflected back to us in your weird game of Switcherooni of which I have now figured out.

    Thanks to you and others, I have now coalesced the entire process in an expedient manner – thank you for your input and participation. The Supernova phase, if done properly, allows us to pin point those unhealed parts within ourselves and do something about it. You see your kind shine a big bright light on all our unhealed parts, bringing them to our attention. Of course, none of this is within your control whatsoever. Simply because your kind are unable to introspectively look inside yourselves at any time which gives our kind a distinct evolutionary advantage.

    This takes applied dedication. Intense visualization (while in a Theta state thanks to somebody else and not you) thus allowing me to remove all the toxic glub from within my being. I was able to see myself as a container filled with toxic gunk and residual arrogant hubris (narc left overs).

    In order to clean out that container it was necessary to hoover it – yes, I hoovered myself and it was very effective. I am quite happy to report that container came up sparkling. So it’s not only narcissists who can apply a hoover you know. It’s just that ours is far more effective and beneficial to us and are biophilic in nature. Where as yours are necrophilic in nature.

    What I have discovered is that narcissistic relationships are not relationships per say but are merely a neurobiological transactions. It is a strange dichotomy – a bizzare symbiosis but ultimately it’s one sided whereby our kind obtain the ultimate benefit in the end; albeit at a great cost to us and none to you (SO FAR). Nature works in mysterious ways does it not? Your kind are actually evolving our kind – it brings a whole new meaning to friends with benefits don’t you think?

    Many people consider themselves cursed as a result of a narcissistic entanglement. I on the other hand consider it a blessing and an added boon. The process of natural selection seems applicable here and not without a twist of irony. What happens when your kind enter into romantic entanglements with our kind assures you are signing your own death warrant should you enter the sphere of a Super Empath who has gone Supernova. Then it is too late, there will be no going back for you now [wicked grin].

    Once we are whole and healed we have the ultimate power as there is nothing left inside of us you can extract fuel from. Further once we have identified you as callous, unempathic, necrophilic, treacherous, sadists (C.U.N.T.S) you can’t inflict pain and torment on us anymore; nor smear us with your acidic words spoken with a forked tongue. This new found capability of ours will render you totally ineffective in:

    A. seduction – as you are now completely visible (like a neon sign) and if you slip through those cracks, even briefly, it won’t last long because we will soon (to soon for you) identify you as C.U.N.T.S; and

    B devaluation – because you won’t get that far and if injured by our discard you will no longer be in a position to trigger our unresolved wounding. As we now have none then we get to discard you right quickly and laugh at you at the same time. Doncha just love it when we can economise on strategies!

    As we can now identify your kind as C.U.N.T.S, our kind will soon become known to your kind as OUCH – Obscure, Untouchable, Creatures who Hurt. Once we’ve all hoovered ourselves we will all be OUCH. Of course the harm we disburse is not of a malicious nature it’s just a process of natural eradication whereby your kind are the virus and our kind are the antibodies.

    Narcissists, for our kind, are now a cake walk. We could equally now be referred to as NNRDs Natural Narcissist Repellent Devices or NSUs Narcissist Starvation Units. I can use acronyms too [wink] :-.

    Hoover anyone?

    This one is for you HG – thanks for the graduation

      1. Callous – I was going to change C.U.N.T.S to KUNTS but I thought that would be more confusing.

        I know a few people can be offended by that particular word but it it is taken in the correct context I have used is is most apt for their kind.

  10. Btov,

    I understand what you are saying about the friend wanting to help me. That wasn’t the case. Had it been, I would have really appreciated it and thanked her profusely!

    I felt she dropped in on me to make sure I really was ill. This annoys me no end. We aren’t close friends, just acquaintances. I felt like I had been drained of a quart of plasma by the time she left.

  11. Eudoxia,

    Thanks for understanding. I don’t think friend is a narcissist but I don’t know if she has reality nailed down that well. I got the very strong sense that her repeated attempts to contact me had nothing to do with trying to help. She didn’t offer any help of any kind and she knew I had a friend staying with me, helping me at the time.

    And yes, she called me on my land line and every time she did I would have to haul myself onto my feet and get the phone, expecting it might be something very important like one of my friends who truly IS in crisis right now.

    I have lupus and had the flu which triggered a major relapse.

    I also started taking Prozac a few months ago. I am only taking a very small amount but I wonder if it is affecting my patience with people. Ordinarily, I would be wary of this person but now I am completely intolerant.

    I really don’t know for sure. All I know is I have become so intolerant of dishonesty, I just tune people out if they are stretching the truth out of proportion.

    I notice too, socially, if someone drones on about themselves and is puffing themselves up all the time and I just hear, “me, me, me, me,” all through all of their conversations, without let up, I completely turn off. A switch goes off and I can’t bear to be in their company.

    This is different for me and I really wonder if it Prozac induced.

    1. Lisa,

      I don’t appreciate people who show disregard for others (especially sick others) even those who are co-dependent can do this as well.

      No they don’t need to be narcs but in cases where sincerity is absent then non narcs are still doing so called “good deeds” in order to seek “self validation” from external sources.

      That is and of itself necrophilic in nature because they are seeking energy from others. Why should anybody provide something to another who is unable to provide it themselves. It becomes parasitical.

      Lisa have you heard of 5HTP? It is a natural SSRI alternative by promoting the natural chemicals and hormones that support serotonin production. It’s well worth investigating. Proxac can be really dangerous.

      1. Eudox and LisaO,

        Eudox, glad you brought up the 5HTP, I use it all the time and have had great results with it. LisaO, I will wait to hear from you as well, as I will share with you the other natural remedies I have been using. I will also share my sources. I actually buy and make up my own capsules and tinctures, it is very cost effective. I also study and harvest wild plants for holistic treatment.

        LisaO, there are many things we can use to help ourselves, I am more than willing to share anything I know if it would give you some relief. I know the cold weather is a culprit too.

        Hugs to both of you

        1. Btov

          Thanks for your offer!
          If you know of anything that helps immune disorders I would love to hear about it!
          Thanks SO much

      2. Eudoxia,

        I will try that supplement. I always worry about taking supplements as it isn’t well regulated industry. Some of the ingredients may come from China! Scary

    2. LisaO,

      Perhaps, you are forming solidifying boundaries. I know when I hurt and don’t want someone over, I mean it, unless I really do need help and there is genuine concern. The fact your friend was there nails the answer, the woman was out of line. Lisa, life is to short and when we need to care for ourselves and are releasing CD people we sure don’t get rid of one to take on another.

      If I may ask, what is the Prozac being subscribed for? I know many medications can be used for other reasons than the obvious ones they were originally designed to treat.

      I have also been treating myself with homeopathic herbal remedies and have been rather successful with it. Thought perhaps I could share with you. My heart heart goes out to you, not easy to have to live with these afflictions.

      1. Ditto what BTOV said AndyD.

        I hope you had a fantastic Christmas and a very happy new year! Let’s hope 2018 can be the best year yet!

        Bright blessings to you.

      2. BTOV/Lisa

        Forming solid boundaries is exactly what we all need to do. I pulled a narc unstuck on xmas night.

        Unknown at the time but Christmas day was the perfect opportunity for a little test. I was at a friend’s place for xmas day and so were 2 others (narcs) I have little to do with outside of bumping into them socially.

        We ended up with a massive super cell storm and all ended up huddled in the house with no way out as we’d been flooded in. We had to cross a causeway to get to the property and the storm dumped nearly 80ml in less than an hour causing flash flooding.

        There was a lot of drinking going on and I was still quite ok alcohol wise, I still had it together. One person started to tell me about a time she was councelled at work for being too direct with a fellow employee who made a complaint about her and so on….the narc piped in and seized the moment to lay a gaslighting trip on me.

        I could see this very clearly. She attempted to triangulate me with the other woman. I immediately took direct action. Probably not as diplomatically as I would have liked but there is just no other way to deal with this particular one and it worked regardless and I held my ground and my sovereignty remained in tact.

        I put my hand out and said to narc “stop right there”
        “Firstly B’s experience is her experience, you were not there and have no idea of who was doing what you need to listen not throw in random speculations” she continued to pull her stuff then I immediately said
        “THEREFORE you have nothing to say in the matter you were not there”
        She proceeded as they do.
        I put my hand out again and said “Stop I just told you I am not interested in your opinion on this – opinions aren’t facts”
        She then decided to twist and distort reality by trying to entice me into the role of the office bully to match me up with the other woman’s experience LOL
        I looked her firmly in the eyes and said.
        “That is your perception”
        “Your perception of reality has no bearing on who I am”
        “I know who I am and above all I know what I am not”
        “I don’t care if you think I’m a long necked green giraffe, your opinion of me is neither here nor there – it has no power over me, nor is it any of my business”
        “You can hold any opinion of me you like, I don’t care either way it doesn’t change who I am”
        She tried to speak again using another tac
        “I said my truth is non negotiable and I am not prepared to entertain your fantasy world illusion of who you think I am and I am not prepared to discuss this matter any further with you”

        She didn’t like it much but she shut the f**^ up which was the desired outcome. She was fine after that then I saw her the next day and she tried to pull another minor number when I wasn’t interested in what she was promoting and told her straight up but not in a nasty way.

        So she turned and said in a snarky way “OH WHATEVER replete with eye roll and the look of contempt (supply denied) I just pointed at her and said laughing “RIDICULOUS! What’s with the eye roll? Are you offended because I have my own requirements? It’s not a game of one upmanship M – attempting to trivialize what others have to say as less important than what you have so say isn’t ok – get my drift”?

        Then I said let’s try this again. “I don’t need a smart phone for a computer, I need a computer with an advanced publishing program on it as I write A LOT. Furthermore I don’t need an automatic speller or a phone that finishes typing words for me. I can type 90 wpm and do not require artificial intelligence to take over from my own brain. I can spell just fine. OK?

        I got the little head bob from side to side with a low key – “yea fair enough” without the condescending inuendos.

        Day 3 yesterday saw her again – good as gold mate! Not a smidgen of b/s from her. Time will tell and we shall see huh?

        When we have solid boundaries and are not afraid to be firm and exercise them then those freaks can’t gaslight us or pull off their covert manipulation at all. It disables them completely. Of course the danger exists that a real malignant one will go for the smear campaign and take down. But people around here know what she’s like so she won’t succeed in that game if she enters it and I don’t think she’s malignant just vulnerable. Although the jury is still out on that one. We’ll see.

        The other risk here is when we exercise a boundary, people who are not familiar with what we are doing may form a false perception where we actually appear to be the bullies, it’s a double edged sword. But I will be f**^*d if I am going to allow some human Chubacabra to suck out my life force or slime me.

        1. Wow what a way to start a New Year flooded in!
          Those were interesting confrontations you had. You’ve got a lot of self confidence to speak it out the way you did. You had the conversation I’d like to partake in at times but don’t have the confidence to do well, being that I try my best to avoid confrontations, which actually can make matters worse. It just prolongs the agony.
          I’ll bet the others in the room were gasping. haha
          I have a friend who lies – and I know it — but don’t want to say the words “BS! I know the truth. Why do you lie to me? I’m your friend.” I think she’s got some major character disturbance. If I confront it I’ll never hear the end of it. Anyway I’m trying to disengage. We are coworkers and friends and have been through a lot together, but she is worsening. I’ve come to find that I’ve got some CD problems myself for continuing to engage in the crazy. But I am trying and have distanced myself a lot this past year.
          I don’t want crazy anymore. It’s exhausting. Some people really get on my last nerve.

          1. Lucy,

            You are doing no one any good by continuing an unhealthy relationship. It is painful to cut off a friend or family member, just as I let the Sis go. As you know we can only change ourselves and many times hanging onto a faulty relationship only robs us of our positive energy.

            I know you have been a good friend, however, it doesn’t sound like she is reciprocating in kind. Not a good situation when you have to work with the person. It is good that you are having this reaction it may help you to be proactive in forming stronger bounderies. I say this as this is something I have to work on.

            Remember our character assets can also be used against us. You are kind, caring and giving, wonderful qualities, the qualities the CD love to exploit. In caring for yourself and asserting the strength to shed dysfunctional people will go along way in your growth. If you can chalk this up to experience and use it as a positive learning experience.

            You are growing, just think at one time we did not have the insight we have now, the determination and understanding to know what is best for us and let go.

            I know you will make the best decision possible, first for yourself, your loved ones and your friend. You might be her friend, she does not sound like any ones true friend, not even for herself.

          2. Lucy I recommend you listen to some of the life coaches. They give direct and explicit strategies for dealing with narcs and how to avoid being eaten alive. You will learn a great deal.

            Lisa A Romano, Merridith Miller (both of whom have interviewed Dr Simon), Richard Grannon and Melanie Tonia Evans. These guys have all been done over by narcs and are now all fully healed and will never be narc bait again. I salute them all! I’ve learned from all of them and I mean hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to them.

            There is one thing I am determined to do and that is never being cannon fodder for these freaks again and I am achieving my goal because they are no longer getting away with their b/s.

          3. BTOV said

            “Remember our character assets can also be used against us. You are kind, caring and giving, wonderful qualities, the qualities the CD love to exploit. In caring for yourself and asserting the strength to shed dysfunctional people will go along way in your growth. If you can chalk this up to experience and use it as a positive learning experience”.

            Dead bloody right! “Right, RIGHT you’re bloody well right”! …… in the words of Supertramp.

            This is exactly what they DELIBERATELY look for so they can exploit us to the max – this is how they get their hooks into us. They are in a perpetual state of envy having nothing in them they see in us – but they want it for themselves.

            They not only set out to take what is ours by transferring our good qualities onto their own persona by mimicking it. But try to strip it from us using gaslighting and other strategies. This is what I refer to as the good ole narc Switcherooni. They not only claim all our good character assets by imitation but to add insult to injury they paint us black sliming us with their putrifescence.

            Lucy I swear if you don’t implement solid boundaries honey, you are going to be narc bait. There is nothing wrong with self assertion or healthy anger and there is such a thing.

            “Anyone can become angry – that is easy. But to be angry at the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose and in the right way – this is not easy”.

            Lucy often people who are unable to assert themselves is largely because of co-dependence which isn’t what most people think it is. Co-dependence is actually seeking self validation from external sources. Narcs do this as well but to a very malevolent degree, they need it to survive basically because they have no sense of self. They killed their authentic self off years ago.

            Co-dependence is not a disorder it is a way of being in the world. We are all co-dependent in many areas of our life some more so than others. I realised the reason I was narc bait was because during my first round of initial self work, I disabled many of my ego defense mechanisms. When these are modified to become adaptive as opposed to maladaptive they form solid boundaries. It’s otherwise known as taming our black wolf or shadow.

            Rather than tame it I disabled it allowing myself to become co-dependent. NARP has sorted this right out mate.

            We still have our authentic self inside of us and it’s a matter of self retrieval. This is the abject beauty of quantum freedom healing. I call it hoovering myself. I’m removing all the false beliefs I have that unconsciously dictate to me who I am thanks to the distortions of reality that occur in early childhood developmental programing. This is a normal part of development. It’s just you add abuse to that mix and that part isn’t normal.

            We are all literally crawling with false beliefs we have about ourselves due to our brain not being fully developed at birth therefore, we already start out in life handicapped. Our brains aren’t fully developed until we are 7 years old.

            7 is when our alpha and beta states kick in which is thinking and reasoning plus other stuff but just think about it. Look at it this way, if we don’t have thinking/reasoning and we’ve just spent 7 years operating as recording devices – WTF is in our subconscious???? WTF indeed you should see what I’m retrieving out of mine and I wasn’t abused mine was more emotional neglect.

            Ask yourself this question Lucy. If so-n-so doesn’t like me, does that change who I actually am? I think you will find that’s a resounding no. So if it has no impact on you , why put up with nonsense.

            Our subconscious if we think in terms of it being a container, is full of toxic crap and false beliefs we have about ourselves. While we are literally full of sh**t (sorry LOL) we have no space for us to express our own true authentic natures because we can’t get past the sh**t and this is the part of us that hurts.

            We need to do a self hoover and I can say straight up – IT WORKS!

            I do not want to see anybody hurt by these assholes again and there is only one way to guarantee it won’t happen. Self hoovering!

            Nanoo Nanoo!

          4. Lucy,

            Do you really want to lose your last nerve? Be careful once you lose it you may never regain another, I don’t know whether its possible to grow another nerve either.

          5. Lucy,

            I would just back away slowly from lying friend. Sometimes a confrontation is a good idea . It depends on your friend. I wonder how she would react.

          6. Lucy,

            Completely agree with LisaO.
            You should either slowly back away from the lying friend.
            Or, call out the lie in direct way “BS! I know the truth. Why do you lie to me? I’m your friend.” If she plays any game, then cut her off faster.

            Duration of friendship doesn’t matter. If lying is the big elephant in the room, then one should either slowly move toward exit, or call the elephant out. Staying in the room will give nothing more than constant choking feeling.

          7. Lucy – do yourself a favor and watch Harry Potter Series 3 – there are some nice tactics in there for assholes and I am dead serious :-

          8. Lucy – to set the picture, we weren’t in a room, we were outside on a patio, it was dryer than inside the house. The house was left open and got water blasted, the mattresses and lounge were soaking wet. This was a mini tornado we were lucky the house was there at all and we all made it back up the hill.

            It was a causeway that was over not the river itself. I’m not sure of the terminology you use in your respective countries but a causeway is like a concrete bridge that runs across a creek – they are built up over the creek bed itself. Not like a bridge per say more like a sophisticated concrete beaver dam.

            I’m in a small country town in Oz and there are hundreds of causeways around here. They often go under after large amounts of torrential rain in a short amount of time. So we were all prevented from getting back across until the next morning when it subsided. I was on a 200 acre property the causeway is at the beginning of the driveway LOL

            So we were f**^*d and the merry old crew decided the only mature thing to do (once we got back intact) was drink tequilla. I had two shots to calm my nerves after seeing the carnage.

            The last thing I recall before jumping into the car to get up the hill was the pavlova doing a UFO imitation, promptly followed by the table it was sitting on. That’s when we all did an EXIT STAGE LEFT right quick in convoy style up the hill en route to the house LOL

            Nobody was capable of driving anyway least of all in over a flooded creek during a tornado! Not even me and I was the least effected because I hadn’t been drinking that much.

            We were all in semi shock afterwards and the last thing I wanted was a f**^8 narcissist in my face. My tolerance for such was at an all time low, in fact I don’t think it will ever go beyond low again unless it hits zero – then I’m sweet :-

        2. Eudoxia,
          You really are a kind of Wonder Woman!
          Challenging confrontational people during a flood! Just wild! Good on ya’!

          1. Lisa,

            We were trapped up there. I had to sleep in the car with old mate in the back who’d been drinking tequila and eating worms (God knows whose idea that was not mine). Ruby was freaking out, she’s my black shepherd and she was in the passenger seat and Ari the white cruisey one was in the back with Frank who was thankfully quite drunk he slept ok by the sounds of it LOL

            At least he got some sleep but I didn’t …………………….the steering wheel and a wet towel for a blanket doens’t make for comfort! But my personal sovereignty was in tact :-

          2. Eudox

            I’m familiar with those bridges. We call them “low water bridge”. There are several in the area I have (had – I now have a contract on it) a house at. Yes I know what you mean about how fast the creeks rise and flash flooding occurs. I’ve seen it many times, but never with a tornado! What a site.
            I know what tequila does to me. I would not want to be confronted nor angry during a tequila fest. oh boy.
            What a memory you’ve got there. So it was an actual tornado? That’s frightening. And I’m glad you’re safe.
            And what a time for a narc to play games.

    3. LisaO
      If a friend visits a sick friend she/he comes with soup, drinks, books, or hand holding, not talking about oneself, and knows to not stay long.
      I have a special friend who suffers greatly from numerous crippling autoimmune diseases. I do text her and call her just to let her know I’m thinking of her. She, though, has a husband to look after her medical needs. But even when she’s deathly ill, I still will send a little text, to let her know she’s not forgotten. I’m not saying that’s your case, but it’s what I do. I know when I’m sick I don’t want a visitor, but I may need cough syrup, Gatorade, nourishment.
      I’ve been known to drop off drinks and medication at one’s door when sick. (I don’t want to get sick too!)
      Take care my friend.

      1. Lucy,

        You are a kind considerate friend!
        I learned just now that my ‘friend’ called while my boyfriend was here recently. He reminded her of the situation, told her I was sleeping. She hung up on him!

          1. Lucy et all,

            No it isn’t weird she hung up at all. I could see through that interaction for what it is. The “friend” was looking for narcissistic supply. It is very important to understand what this is because CD it is the driving force behind them. They need supply in order to live. What is supply? It is like a drug to them.

            Because they have killed off their true authentic selves. They create a totally confabulated persona of who they are. This is the mask they wear. In order to keep that mask alive they require self validation from external sources as they are totally unable to provide themselves with “self validation” as they have no real sense of self.

            If we do not demonstrate unwavering commitment to them by reflecting back to them the admiral qualities they are wanting to be seen for this puts them into narcissistic injury. At any rate they need us to be emotional and to react emotionally so they can get their hit. They don’t care if it’s positive or negative supply any attention is good enough as long as we are showing them they exist and have enough power over us to get a reaction from us.

            When we are in personal relationships the trouble starts when they can no longer control us that’s when they set out to devalue us or if the quality of supply they receive from us is inadaquate. It’s all about supply/fuel – that is what they live and breath for.

            Lucy having back to back encounters with these freaks on legs, I can say with 100% confidence they all use the same strategies. The only thing that differs is the level of actual malevolence in them. Some are worse than others. The overts can’t be easily missed because they are “in your face” the coverts are another story entirely.

            HG Tudor has sectioned them into 3 schools – Lesser, Mid Ranger, Greater – the greater are highly intelligent and articulate, very difficult to spot. My daughter is one and they are very dangerous predators. They all seek supply from us. We are for all intents and purposes their main source of food – they need our supply as much as they need oxygen or food. The supply we hand over to them is our actual life force.

            They are human Chubacabra – soul suckers.

  12. AndyD,

    Haven’t heard much from you lately and hope you are well. Wishing you a Happy, Healthy New Year and hoping things get cleared up in your life.

    Hugs Kindred Spirit

    1. Maybe he went out for a salad and some hip boots!

      BTOV, you were kind to me awhile back when I was down. Thank you for that.
      I hope you have a healthy, happy new year.

      “They may forget what you said but they will never forget how you made them feel.” Carl W. Buehner

      1. Andy, Aishiteru

        I still don’t understand the “salad” reference. I’ve seen it thrown around here, nor do I quite understand the “pass the popcorn” reference. Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

        Andy I can only hope that life is taking a turn for the better regarding the X and your daughter, but knowing how these people operate I’m fearful it’s worsening. These people don’t have a bottom! It’s an endless bottoming out – I don’t know why I continually become puzzled at how low one can go.

        I wish you the best, that you take care of yourself physically and spiritually, emotionally. These situations tend to eat at a person till we can become sick and depressed. I’ve surely been there.

        I know it’s difficult to have to keep dealing with the constant flow of crap from a CD X. It’s hard to even sleep many nights.

        Andy I wish you a healthy good year.

        1. Lucy
          It is just a way to discount someone’s input on a forum when you disagree with them. Laberlling them a troll instead of intelligent discussion. Small minded bullying technique.

          1. Aishitaru,

            Perhaps this could all be wrapped up and resolved if you apologized to J.C.
            In one of your initial posts you were harshly critical of her, possibly generalizing from your own experience. I think you wrote that you thought she was a drug addict. I think she may have mentioned smoking weed. That hardly meets the criteria of being a drugged out meth zombie!
            You have a lot to offer. You are highly intelligent and articulate. All that is required is an explanation or apology for treating JC the way you did and I, for one will welcome you with open arms.

          2. When disturbed characters make excuses for their behavior, they know what they’re doing. They have a clear purpose in mind when they’re seeking to justify themselves. They use this tactic only when they know full well they’ve done something or plan to do something most everyone would regard as wrong. But even knowing it’s wrong, and knowing how negatively the action reflects on them, they remain determined to do it. They might feel “entitled” to do it (as in the case of more narcissistic individuals) or they may simply pit themselves against the generally accepted rules (as in the case of the aggressive personalities. What’s most important to recognize is that at the very moment they’re making the excuse, they’re not “defending” at all or unconsciously fending off any anxiety. Rather, they’re actively fighting against a principle they know society wants them to adopt. And more importantly, they’re also trying to get you to go along with it. Covertly aggressive folks prefer this kind of tactic as opposed to open defiance because it not only helps conceal their aggressive intentions (as well as some telltale aspects of their character) but also simultaneously helps them maintain a more favorable social image (by getting someone else to see things their way or buy into the purported reasonableness of their actions). And once they get the other person to become more accepting of their premise, they’re well on their way to winning the contests of image and interpersonal control.

        2. Lucy,

          I met my daughter few times in recent months. I feel that she has not been brainwashed yet, maybe because I haven’t done anything to prompt my wife to attempt alienation, or maybe because my wife is in fact wiser than I credit her for, or maybe she thinks I haven’t wised up & somehow everything will settle back into old routine.

          I think “salad” got used in two ways in recent times on this forum :-)
          – “word salad” as mixture of random words that confuses the listener
          – “pass the salad” or “pass the popcorn” as a way of closing the discussion… something like a diversion tactic in a group setting to abruptly close the discussion.

          1. Hey Andy – Happy New Year!

            Yes word salad a diversion tactic. Pass the popcorn is something done when watching a movie at the theater. A much healthier option to chocolate cake :-

            Hope you had a great Christmas and NY Andy. Let’s hope 2018 brings us all better, healthier choices.


    2. BTOV,

      I am doing good. Thanks for the wishes.
      Happy new year everyone.

      Just keeping up with the posts. There are quite a few of them. :-)

  13. Lisa/BTOV

    Getting back to Lisa’s odd friend. It resembles something like this quote from Keith Campbell when he refers to interacting with narcissists to eating chocolate cake.

    “When I eat chococlate cake, 20 minutes later I’m under my desk wanting to die. When I eat broccoli, in 20 minutes I feel good. But given the choice I always eat the cake.”

    Not when you know chocolate cake will make you and understand the full consequences of eating cake. Isn’t that similar to what Marie Antoinette said before they lopped her head of “let them eat cake”

    I think they are all heading for a head lopping :-

    1. I eat the cake, because I love it and I’m weak. I know broccoli is the good choice, but to honest, who wants all that gas! haha

        1. LisaO, Lucy and Eudox,

          All of you are just to much, you all have had me in stitches all day. Thanks for the laughs.

          LisaO, I buy my 5HTP from Puritans Pride on line. Sam-e is a good brand to. I will check into other things, are you able to tell me the most troubling symptoms you have to deal with?

      1. Lucy – gas is a necessary part of life sort of like oxygen. It’s detoxing in action my father would often say “where ever you be let your wind roam free” lol

    2. “When I eat chocolate cake, 20 minutes later I’m under my desk wanting to die.”

      This is what happens to me. I suffer with I.B.S. I cannot eat cake any more. This is also the main reason why I gave up acoholic drinks. I cannot eat meat in quantity either. About 2 oz’s is all I can have.

      Fish,salad,veg and rice is what I can eat now. That is It !!!!!!

      Off topic, I got a morgage quote. I CAN BUY A HOUSE OF MY OWN. (I live in an appartment now)
      Ever since I got home today, All I have done is cryed,and laughed. I have been no contact for 3 YEARS, SHE THE MOTHER USED TO SAY THIS TO ME



      1. Joey,

        Always remember those tapes are lies, all lies. None of it was ever true. The CD project their inner sewers unto us, how convenient, they unload their dirt unto a vulnerable innocent child and many times literally destroying them forever. It is a difficult process to make peace with these lies and retrain our being to know we are of value.

        You have risen up along with many others to break free. Not an easy thing to do when we are all alone and carry all this negative baggage. Then to find the strength to fight for our very lives, to live and be free from these atrocious lies and people takes unbelievable strength, willpower and endurance.

        Joey, I know that when someone judges me, condemns me and tries to pull me down they are toxic to my well-being. These kind of people destroy others with their vile tongues and from these we must put up solid boundaries and get away from them.

        I know of a man who came from an extremely dysfunctional family, they left with nothing to preserve themselves. Living one day at a time not knowing where their next meal would come from. They didn’t give up and continued the struggle of their life to be free. One day a woman came along and supposedly was a friend. This woman turned around and tore down this man, condemning him, blame shifting, laying guilt trips and what not unto this man.

        This man was struggling immensely with all his demons and the past, how to survive and go forward and at the same time trying to trust and find friendship. Well his trust in this woman proved to be his demise. This man could not take one more rejection in his vulnerable state. The man committed suicide, he blew his brains out all because the one he took and chance and trusted turned on him, condemning him and throwing the past in his face.

        It didn’t matter really, his past, all of his mistakes, the important part was this man was trying to escape the cage of bondage and another CD individual attacked him at his most vulnerable point in time, the time he once again took the chance to trust and the necrophilic CD knowingly knew how to shove the knife deep.

        To me this woman was as guilty as sin in helping this man to self destruct.
        This is not an isolated case, these kind of tragedies happen all the time, especially, to people who have been abused and have no one. We don’t hear about these things as they are chalked up to being the undesirables in society, the lower class, drug addicts, drunks and yes our very own veterans who come home from war.

        These are people, human life that have been treated worse than the perpetrators dog and dirt under their feet. Adding insult to injury society will sweep them under the carpet as if they didn’t exist, perhaps one may comment on the tragedy.

        I personally will try to help anyone struggling to rise above the mire. All the condemning CD in society can go back to their lofty abodes. I know they are to full of hubris to ever take responsibility for the damage they themselves know they are a party to.

        Joey, there men and woman who came to the shelter reliving the broken pasts they had escaped. Many came trusting, searching for answers and help. Others came to tell their stories only to go back to the abuse they came from. Horrendous stories, our objective to help, support and point these people in a positive direction and to never to condemn and do harm.

        What was done to you by you mother was unconscionable, a very disturbed person. Joey, every time this memory comes back of what the mother said, please repeat what I think of you and what I say: Joey is a kind giving man, he is good. I mean this Joey, you are an awesome man and I feel privileged that you have entered my life and thank you for all the times you have built me and made me smile.

        You see, we help one another, we support and build each other up to become who we really are inside. Sadly the people who should had done this and loved us most did not. But truly, as you know there are people in the world that care and do realize our value.

        It isn’t about yesterday anymore, it is about today. We need to surround ourselves with loving, caring people who build us up, accept us for who we are and encourage us to be the best we can be.

        The CD can either get the help they need or stay away from me. I haven’t any patience or stomach for the likes of the CD and their weaselly tactics of hoovering and tearing others down. Remember when you have the slightest inkling of CD slithering around, give them no quarter. Protect your boundaries at all costs, you have come to far to lose any precious ground you have gained.

        Hugs Dear One

        1. BTOV

          You have just described the most manipulative covert narcissist in action.

          They have taken on board our weaknesses and strengths (they consider flaws), they have weighed our vulnerabilities and wait until the appropriate moment to present itself in which case they strike and paint us black.

          They do so knowingly and calculatingly. Knowing full well when we go to defend ourselves (because we know what we have done, or have not done) we will be seen to be the aggressors the minute we defend ourselves. Because the evil one behind the facade has already painted us black to others.

          They will NEVER say a bad word about us to another soul. They will bemoan how we have hurt them and how they love us so much and are so worried about us and only want to help us etc……..etc……….etc…… PUKE

          All the while demonstrating pure malice to our face. CD are purely diabolical.

          Nice post BTOV – CD are seriously malignant.

          1. To All,

            I posted the above paragraph which I have reposted below, as I thought it appropriate for the discussion we have been having and cements what I have been trying to say. I apologize, I didn’t write the paragraph it was written by Dr. Simon not me and Dr. SImon explains it so well and so simple.

            What Dr. Simon says about these kind of CDN and their way of presenting themselves is clear in how they mislead and manipulate what their real intentions are. They are masters of fooling people. Sad to say how many people are mislead and the purposeful damage the CDN doe.

            The CDN victimizes many in their webs of deceit and destruction as they weave draw in unsuspecting and trusting individuals. Not only do they harm the intended prime victim but redefine the reality of thinking of all they con with lies and pull into the drama of their covet war to destroy the intended victim.

            By: Dr. SImon
            When disturbed characters make excuses for their behavior, they know what they’re doing. They have a clear purpose in mind when they’re seeking to justify themselves. They use this tactic only when they know full well they’ve done something or plan to do something most everyone would regard as wrong. But even knowing it’s wrong, and knowing how negatively the action reflects on them, they remain determined to do it. They might feel “entitled” to do it (as in the case of more narcissistic individuals) or they may simply pit themselves against the generally accepted rules (as in the case of the aggressive personalities. What’s most important to recognize is that at the very moment they’re making the excuse, they’re not “defending” at all or unconsciously fending off any anxiety. Rather, they’re actively fighting against a principle they know society wants them to adopt. And more importantly, they’re also trying to get you to go along with it. Covertly aggressive folks prefer this kind of tactic as opposed to open defiance because it not only helps conceal their aggressive intentions (as well as some telltale aspects of their character) but also simultaneously helps them maintain a more favorable social image (by getting someone else to see things their way or buy into the purported reasonableness of their actions). And once they get the other person to become more accepting of their premise, they’re well on their way to winning the contests of image and interpersonal control.

          2. Unfortunately my daughter and former best friend are both CD. I believe they both know exactly what they are doing. I believe my daughter is the most dangerous and predatory covert manipulator I’ve ever had anything to do with. My former BF comes a close second but lacks the intelligence. My daughter I don’t believe is Borderline she is NSpath. The former BF I believe is Borderline.

            The way Tudor described them (this was during our conversation) is the greater elite class (the apex predators) are extremely cold blooded and controlled but when triggered and are in injury they exhibit cold rage. They don’t lose their shit nor do they necessarily immediately retaliate. They go quietly off into the sunset and plan your demise to totally destroy you.

            Classic Borderlines go Full Chucky when in injury the quiet Borderlines implode, self mutilation, alcoholism, drug addictions.
            Old mate who I look after demonstrates narc strategies but is basically Schizotypal or Schizoid I don’t have the DSM in front of me right now but he clearly demonstrates many diagnostic criteria of NPD but he is non malignant. He is literally a frozen adult child.

            He’s a lot better now my management of him has improved. When he landed on my door step I was in the early stages of CPTSD – can you imagine? -shakes head- that was not nice. I will never to there again.

            Joey that UTube is over an hour long, I can’t do too many of the long doco’s since I’m on satelite – I had NBN once which was unlimited downloads and it was great. That’s not the case anymore.

            I do you hear you when it comes to visual memory and planning – Old Mate suffers both those things. Has poor spacial navigation and trying to involve him in projects is like hearding cats. The Spath daughter has no difficulty in these areas – the FBF does.

            So did the guy I was involved with albeit briefly, he had a TBI (right frontal lobe) was shit at planning and very poor visual memory had very poor memory period, was totally scrambled. He used to get conversations of who said what confused. I still don’t know to this day whether it was intentional word salad or just a seriously scrambled brain. Also very poor impulse control.

            I’m glad to see the back of each and every one of them.

      2. Joey
        Congratulations! I’m sure this has been a dream of yours, owning your own home. What a year already, 2018. Good changes. And the best part – you did it on your own, didn’t you!

      3. Oh Joey, how wonderful! Not the IBS but your ability to buy your own house!! Hip,hip hooray. For he’s a jolly good fellow, for he’s a jolly good fellow Etc…etc…

        Your mother was projecting her own feelings of being worthless on to you — as if that would make them go away.

        It’s hard for me to imagine a mother treating their own child this way. What a beast! It’s easier for me to relate to people whose fathers were belittling and mean.

      4. Joey,

        BTOV is right, these are tapes – and sadly you are likely to have these messages buried deeply in your subconscious as well. On a conscious level you may not be aware of them, but you will have them there.

        Anybody who has been seriously abused in childhood has created due to no fault of their own, some very hostile false beliefs about themselves. I can say, I have found false beliefs about myself even around seemingly innocuous memories that I was conscious of. But at a deeper unconscious level the false beliefs I’d created about myself around these memories were not positive. It are these false beliefs we hold and are unconscious of that allow narcs to hook into our lives. I know for sure that I AM NOT GOING TO ATTRACT them into my life anymore.

        Obviously you had no choice as a child, but those tapes are still there Joey, and if you are holding onto a belief that maintains “I am unworthy” you will draw people to you who reflect back to you that unconscious inner belief consequently confirming that belief.

        Joey I really feel for you and appreciate where you come from. I know you are very dependent on doctors and psychologists advice and there is nothing wrong with this. Sometime we have to step out of the square in order to evolve ourselves to higher levels of awareness. Most of the psychological models are outdated.

        More people like Dr Simon and I am in no way discrediting his work, his books are brilliant and I still highly recommend them to people for understanding character disturbance and always will. There are just complimentary healing modalities we can use to speed up our own healing.

        NLP is a very good way to get to our core beliefs that restrict us from obtaining true happiness and wholeness in life. That is what NARP is about – us cutting to the chase of us and finding our false beliefs and shifting them out and replacing them with the right stuff.

        Richard Grannon is a fully qualified psychologist and fully accredited NLP practitioner has some very good programs on offer but they are more in tune with realigning ourselves after CPTSD etc.

        At the end of the day it’s about our own personal journey along the yellow brick road to get to the end and expose the little man behind the curtain who is creating our reality for us. We can find him and SACK him.

        It’s about intentionally creating the reality we want and not being subjected to the reality our false beliefs are projecting for us.

        Things are really turning around me and thousands of others right now who are doing the same. The amount of abuse going on on this planet is exponential. But so are the rewards if we take our experiences and turn them into gold. This is emotional alchemy at work my friend.

        You have endless and loving support, you are not alone and you are not unworthy! You are very worthy – every cell in your body is beautiful and let nobody tell you otherwise.

        The Season Ticket Holders who I refer to are BTOV, Lucy, Lisa0, AndyD and you Joey. You were the first cabs off the rank when I first hit this site over a year ago and I was in quite a state. I started my journey into the depths of narcissists and CD right here. What I though I knew prior to coming here was nothing compared to what I know now.

        I could not have got where I am today without each and every single one of you, I consider you all to be part of my tribe and I wish the very best for each and every one of you and I sincerely mean that.

        I’ve left a link to NARP again and I won’t yammer on about this program anymore. I think this is just pure gold in recovering ourselves post narc abuse. In saying that each of us has a right to heal in any way we see fit and I respect your individual choices in this regard.

        Sending you a big hugg.

  14. The Future

    Poem by Leonard Cohen

    Give me back my broken night
    my mirrored room, my secret life
    it’s lonely here, there’s no one left to torture
    Give me absolute control
    over every living soul
    And lie beside me, baby,
    that’s an order!

    Remind you of anyone ??????????

    Avoid at all costs




    Poem by Mathew Miller

    Your journey starts here it starts now
    Your future is in your hands and know one shows you how
    To make it, unfold, and have it turn out what you want it to be
    Not anybody, not me
    Talk it a step at a time
    Even if your plans are stopped on a dime
    Be careful, and listen, learn from your mistakes
    Because one day you’ll advance on the choices you make
    Your future is here, your future is now
    But don’t worry, you’ll show yourself how


    1. Joey,

      Thank you, that was lovely, it means a lot to me. I will put on my frig as a reminder and think of you.
      Hugs and many blessings in this New Year for you little brother..

  16. To All,

    My wish for us all is to find peace. It’s a difficult one to come by, but through our comradery here, our stories of life lessons, support, open ears, we are all inching our way towards peace. When you don’t have it you sure miss it. I hope this year finds our daily lives more tolerable.

  17. I phoned my ‘friend’ yesterday and left voicemail. I told her that I just wanted to make sure there was no misunderstanding, that I would get back to her when I have the energy.

    To flesh out this story a little bit…she isn’t narcissistic but she has bipolar disorder. I just found out a few weeks ago. I am unsure how to handle this. I have had friends, in the past, with this and they cause a lot of turmoil.

    My bipolar friend, twenty years ago, tried to control me, impose her will and when I moved away, she tried to stalk me. It was a little scary.

    I doubt the woman here would do these things but I am getting the same vibe from her. Very very willful! I am going to talk to her about this, kindly and hope SHE chooses to back away. If she doesn’t and continues to show odd behavior, I will do the grey rock thing. That will work. I hate to have to even think this way but am very unnerved by her.

    1. Lisa,

      I only found this our recently but Bi-polar can often be misdiagnosed and they are Borderline and vice versa. This has only come to my attention very recently. There are also what are known as Quiet Borderlines. They would resemble vulnerable narcs.

      It looks like the hanging up episode demonstrated was injury due to lack of supply. Well it’s what it sounds like to me.

      Talking to them rarely gets us anyway they are masters at deflection. You run the risk of getting slimed. Can I suggest, if you do talk her on, just stick to facts and strictly to facts so she can’t weave you into any stories because she will try. The minute she goes into word salad, keep her to point and on topic. That leaves them with little wiggle room and that’s when they are likely to slime you. If she drops her load and goes into injury she’ll blow a gasket then she’s busted and you can eject her out of your life.

      Watch you back Lisa, you know what they are capable of.

  18. These replies to posts are going all over the place like a mad woman’s fart! They have been doing this for some time.

    This is what UTube and other sites do, it disrupts the flow by aligning comments to other comments that are out of context. The original reply to a particular post turns up somewhere else where it was not intended.

    I don’t like this.

  19. I did post a link from YALE University on Borderline. I do not know If anyone saw it. It was, I thought very good

    1. Joey,

      It would be more helpful if you would give some sort of indication as to what it is about. Borderlines, much like all of Cluster B disordered not to mention the neurophathic human condition is very generalised – not one size fits all.

      For me personally I have limited bandwidth. I like to know what I am giving my energy too. If that’s ok – I’d like you to provide a bit more detail – I can’t just dive in an take a punt.

      Thanks Joey

      Cheers Joey

    1. That’s interesting, Joey. It kind of,reinforces the idea that borderline is arrested adolescence. One of the hallmarks of being a teen, if I am correct, is having poor planning aptitude.

      I have all sorts of cognitive problems that originate in short term memory deficits. Fortunately my ability to plan is better than average. Whew…

  20. Btov,

    The extreme covert manipulator is THE worst. If they are well practised, people end up thinking YOU are the one with the character problem.

    I probably mentioned this already, but my elder sister recently blew a gasket with another family member who didn’t believe me, when I told her about some of the sh** she laid on me, in the past. She disparaged me, my late husband, our way of life (there was NOTHING there to criticize).

    My late husband lost work a couple of decades ago. But he had passive income from a business he started long ago. We weren’t wealthy but were doing fine. He kept himself busy with numerous projects PLUS he married me, someone who was sick and irritable.

    Rather than appreciate the fact that this man knowingly married someone with major health problems, big sis never missed an opportunity to get in digs about his being a lazy bum.

    Like not working a corporate job was a character flaw. But would she say anything to anybody else? Noooooo…just me. I kept any complaints I had about late husband to myself….always… so it wasn’t like I was egging her on either.

    I have felt repeatedly crushed by this witch, over many years, felt deep despair. My mother didn’t believe me, nor did my other siblings…but siblings do now. In the last year they have experienced her ugly side, much to their surprise!

    Ugly, ugly ugly. I am so sticking to NO CONTACT.

  21. Eudoxia,

    My friend who is bipolar has a manipulation style that strikes me more as passive aggressive. Her presentation is soft, gentle and she has a little girl type of voice. That voice has always been a red flag for me, as, it is usually not natural and projects a vulnerable helpless persona that CAN be unconsciously manipulative — even if they are not aware.

    The bipolar diagnosis does make me extremely wary though, whether it is actually borderline or not. There isn’t much difference in behavior between someone who is manic, or someone who is borderline and in an agitated state.

    So I hear you and appreciate the point you made on that!

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