The Keys to Personal Empowerment
Relating to manipulative and other character-impaired personalities in empowered ways demands a special kind of skill. But anyone can learn the necessary skills. Personal empowerment ultimately requires you to firmly define the “terms of engagement.” And you have to be willing to enforce these terms with any relationship partner. Knowing what terms to set and committing yourself to enforcing them can free you from much potential relational abuse.
Some Basic Principles
Military tacticians have studied the realities of engagements with potential adversaries for years. So, we now have a virtual science on the topic. And the research has revealed some interesting general rules. First among them: “The aggressor sets the rules.” This axiom means an aggressor’s first move pretty much dictates your necessary defensive response.
Consider for a moment the “aggressive” driver. (Notice, I did not say “angry driver.” That’s because aggressive personalities aren’t driven by anger but by desire. They become angry when something gets in their way!) You notice this driver weaving between lanes behind you. And you witness them tailgating the car in front of them. You also sense them coveting the small space between you and the car in front of you. Then, without warning, they make their move. And when they do, you face a decision. If you don’t back of the gas and afford them space, your front fender could bear the consequences. So, their first aggressive move effectively dictates your response.
Two Main Personal Empowerment Tools
Whether they’re overt or covert about it, manipulative aggressors will always try to dictate. Therefore, to empower yourself you must re-define engagement terms and do so quickly. Taking these two actions are your principal empowerment tools. Unfortunately, good-natured folks tend to balk at this. Naturally tolerant, they often wait for things to become unbearable. But in my book Character Disturbance I explain the importance of acting quickly. And in my book In Sheep’s Clothing I outline 12 specific tools to maximally empower yourself in your engagements.
In upcoming posts I’ll be discussing the strategy of personal empowerment in more detail.
Tidbits
I’ll be doing workshops in the greater NYC-NJ area in August. Find the information on the Workshops page or at Vyne Education. Also, Character Matters will air live Sunday July 2nd. Once again, a special holiday edition. Call in at (718) 717-8296 or (501) 258-8326 to voice your thoughts on freedom and character.
Your books and information on this subject has been life changing for me. Thank you!
The only thing I can say about personal empowerment is . You must learn to restrict the amount of information you provide about your daily life when you are apart from th CD in your life. You must develop a mantra of “DO THEY NEED TO KNOW”. So for example they are getting in your face for no reason and they are telling you ” My way or the high way” that you have got an interview and if you get it you can LEAVE. You would be surprised just how much information they obtain from us. Try your hardest to keep those special things to our selves. I found this out the hard way, so DO’NT BLAB AND GET SAD”
Just think ” FCUK YOU”
Joey,
Thanks, I tend to give to much information. yes, I will remember your wise words. I find to many times I regret I said to much. Can’t forget this one , FU.
Again, a good laugh! You are so right.
Yes I have learned to never say anything to my husband’s ex or kids about any health issues. They suddenly become “solicitous” and are full of advice that is not welcome. This is not real caring but rather attempts to control. Funny several of them in the past have come to me for medical advice as they know I am a good researcher and have a lot of knowledge about medical issues, but when it comes to my husband they suddenly become the experts and act as if I am somehow not providing good care. And they ignore his wishes for how to handle his health problems. He and are are pretty much on the same page regarding quality of life vs length of life issues, taking medicines, etc.
I have learned to say nothing to them and to ask my husband to do the same (he agrees but sometimes forgets). Luckily with our move, contact is less or almost nil so it is less of a problem these days. But what I am working on now is, if they do try to interfere to just ignore them. My reacting to their interference gives them power and doesn’t do any good. Since we are going to do what we want anyway, why waste energy on trying to convince them we are doing what is right for us.
This topic will ready me for trial. It’s going to take much control on my part to not let SB anger me during his examination of me.
Good luck Lucy. Staying calm when a CD person pushes your buttons is incredibly hard, I know
There will be a lot of deep breathing on my part
I can just see it now, in court, how intensely disturbing. I’d imagine it would go something like this:
Queen: Girl, Girl!! Well look at you! You don’t belong here, you look all out of sorts!
Alice: Well I should think that’s a good thing.
Queen: What on Earth are you talking about you silly child and only ever speak when spoken to!
Alice: Well if nothing I have to say is important then I suppose I’m not needed around here……..
Queen: So what does it matter if I need you or not?
Alice: I can barely hear you – there must be an angry wasp flying about my head, are you asking for my approval?
Queen: Why on Earth would I seek your approval you can’t even see a whole cat!
Alice: You told me there was a cat over there, well I only saw his smile and his teeth….
Queen: How audacious of you! Are you blaming me for YOU not seeing the whole cat? Well I never!!!!!!
Alice: Never what? Asked about something?
Queen: OFF WITH HER HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alice: I never agreed to anything of the sort.
Queen: You must never say what you mean and only ever say what you don’t mean.
Alice: Perhaps I should never talk at all.
Queen: PRECISELY!
Alice: Oh what would a card know anyway?
Queen: You are being a very silly little child, this is my world if you agree I will grant you favour.
Alice: What sort of favour would that be? And anyway there are things I don’t agree with.
Queen: 2?
Alice: 2 what? That seems a rather odd that statement?
Queen: 2 + 2 ?
Alice: 2+2 what????
Queen: Oh dear you silly, silly child. I’m asking you a question 2 + 2 ?
Alice: Are you asking me what it adds up to?
Queen: No not all, I am asking you what it means.
Alice: 4 I think.
Queen: Everybody knows 2 + 2 = Fish.
Alice: You really are very queer……………
Good luck you guys, I’d rather dive down a rabbit hole, there’s bound to be more illogical insanity there. Just ask the Queen and forget about Alice or vice versa…………..just remember up is down and down is up. Eventually, you should back a winner!
Thanks for the laugh !
Yes, I believe SB is Psychotic, he also knows what he is doing, both can run simultaneously in and out of reality, above all, never forget, SB knows and calculates his moves. Everything, SB does, he does freely of his own accord. He is not and I repeat mentally ill incompetent. Truthfully, in situations like this it is best left up to competent medical officials to opine diagnoses in situations of such magnitude. We only interject as non-medical observers.
I know this is hard to understand and confusing at the same time.
SB also gas-lighted you.
SB is also very aware and educated in the game of volley using the system to his advantage. This is because you are unsuspecting, trusting naive at times, because he was your husband, I don’t mean this in a negative light against you at all, I have experienced too, and it is a mind blowing MF.
You will do OK on the stand,
Just remember DETACH, DETACH, DETACH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just look at the judge and rarely if ever at SB. Stare at the Judge and talk to her when you answer SB.
If you don’t look at SB, half the battle is won.
SB will begin to lose it, because you, you, you are not feeding him what SB wants. If you don’t look at SB he can’t entice you with body or facial expressions to get you to interact.
LOOK AT THE JUDGE: In your mind you are listening and recording a case, nothing more, nothing less.
Question by SB: Breath, count slowly, 1-5 Wait for your attorney, give your attorney ample time to Object or rephrase ?, etc.
Let your attorney bring out the true SB
You are the harmed party not a contestant.
Question by SB: Could you repeat that Please.
Question SB: Short, concise answers to SB. Buy yourself time to think and for your attorney to respond.
Remember SB wants to engage you, to be combative, vocal and argumentative so he can argue you are nuts, that you are the problem or at least a good portion and therefore SB is the victim here. SB will try to project all his scurrilous behavior on you, don’ t give him the opportunity to bait you into the trap SB is preparing for your emotions. DETACH
Question by SB: More lies and badgering by SB.
Lucy, the power lies in you, you alone, to let SB really nail himself in the coffin. Its the truth and the truth will set you free and it will be your guide. Your opportunity to talk and get out the lies will be when your attorney cross- examines you, not when SB x-examines you. This is critical to remember. DETACH
If SB can pull negativity out on your part, he will win. If SB can’t draw out negativity, SB will draw back into his bag of scumbag tricks and the Judge, who is the decider of facts will observe and have on record.
Remember SB’s weakness and survival is built around control, if you engage you put SB in the drivers seat, if you don’t engage, it puts you in control, control of not reacting, not getting angry or upset. A calm can come over you and guide you, you can take control of yourself instead of SB taking the levers. Picture how pathetic SB is on display, Naked as a the King with no Clothes and the Great Wizard of OZ, that is all SB is. Calm, level headed peace will guide you and most of all your truth, only if you let it and that can only happen by detaching.
I know this is extremely hard and so far your life has been flushed down the toilet by Shitbag (SB) and on top of insults and betrayal SB would injure you financially, by stealing half of what you have worked for. Truly, my heart goes out to you. Fight the good fight.
Hugs to you
BOTV
good advice and I will do my best to detach and look at the judge. I can do this
I’m getting nervous. My stomach is feeling the stress. Time for deep breathing
Great advice BTOV. I too have court coming up with my NARC. I’m dreading it. My PTSD symptoms are significantly worse at the present. However I intend in court to try and out your advise in to practise, and DETATCH.
I wish you all the best Lucy. X
Thank You also.
psychosis
a severe mental disorder in which thought and emotions are so impaired that contact is lost with external reality.
I don’t know if I can label SB psychotic. Is one who constantly lies to avoid repercussions for his actions psychotic? He sticks with the lies to the end. It’s unreasonable. But he bears down and will not cut loose
Lucy – did he gaslight you?
No. He didn’t. He has though lied to me about me – maybe that’s gaslighting – but I don’t fall for it. I know myself, have never lost my sense of self. he says things like ” you’ve contributed nothing to the marriage in 30 years” when. I dam well know all the things I pay for. He’s hidden and lied about finances, about his whereabouts. He led a secret life that I did not know about till I found a message on his phone, which led to me diving into our financials. He has so many lies going now that we have divorce/court issues. He makes up lies to help his case – so he thinks anyway
No, I’ve not been gaslighted – he tried – I’ve had to think through some things but have always come back to knowing who I am
You know what that ass said to me once in counseling? “Maybe you should look at yourself as to why your husband sought out another woman “. And I actually self examined myself on that one! Turned out the “girlfriend” was prostitite. And he said that to me – maybe that’s gaslighting. What an evil POS he is.
Lucy this is from Psychopath Free:
A favoured tactic of manipulators and narcissists used in order to obstruct, obscure and distort their target/victims perception/understanding of reality. Intentionally setting up misdeeds and then accusing them their targets with insanity when they react to those misdeeds. Rewriting history or blatantly denying the event ever took place. First provoking negative emotions which produce reactions then dismissing the victims legitimate concerns with labels like “crazy” “insane” “bi-polar” “too sensitive” or “schizophrenic” etc. Gaslighters are patronizing, unapologetic and above all cowards. Because they can not manipulate healthy individuals, they must manufacture events such as insanity or chaos. This gives them power and control they seek over loving, compassionate human beings.
End
They are the true epitome of low life scum. Anybody who gaslights or attempts to gaslight should be considered highly psychotic. In Dr Simon’s book he refers to CD as psychotic.
I could not be gaslighted either. My ex friend tried that and tried it a beauty – it spoke volumes! I knew I had a real psycho on my hands then. You know what she says:
“Oh btw Eudo do you remember that ring I have you (yes 18 months ago) well, I didn’t really give it to you and it’s a special present from hubby and I’ve noticed it isn’t around anymore so it looks like you’ve lost it” Ta Shing! Then she says “do you mind if I take a look around in your room incase it’s fallen down behind your drawers or anything”. A week later, my passport that has been in my jewelry drawer for the past 12 years was gone. She also stole my mobile phone. Why to stop me from seeing another close personal friend who she obviously felt threatened by.
Now that is fully psychotic. I was out of that house within the week. Gone and NC. Won’t touch it with a barge pole. Even if she came groveling back to me on all fours I doubt I could ever give her the time of day again in light of such malignant treachery.
I am not a doctor and never will be.
But this is my understanding
psychosis
delusions – where a person has strong beliefs that aren’t shared by others.
Could you not classify a CD as having some form of delusion such as gradiosity , constant lying and distortion of the facts. What the trigger for this behaviour is, or the reasons, I could not say
He lies to cover up his misdeeds. And he’s made me a part of his lies. I’m delusional and mentally ill because I call him out on what he’s done
Joey – because of their false construct and their need to protect that construct at all costs. They have created a totally confabulated persona that is not real and does not resemble what they are at all. It is a mask. The delusions and psychosis stem from this false mask they wear. This is the psychosis, it’s the mask that they know is not really what they are at some level. So they must lie to themselves and others in an effort to maintain the appearances of this self imposed delusion.
While some people can see through it others can’t. The ones who see through it and are solid enough to stand up to them when they deliver their facade of lies and other assorted strategies to bolster themselves up get attacked and character assassinated.
Of all the CD I have ever had the misfortune to deal with they all use projection identification. This is a seriously psychotic ego defense mechanism. It’s nothing but a malicious, cowardly set up. This is what sent psycho woman off the deep end, when she was assaulting me with verbal abuse and accusing me of the very behavior she was guilty of. When she failed to ruffle my feathers she exploded and got violent then tried to throw me down the stairs. That is psychosis. CD are full on psychotic. Some on the lower end of the spectrum may not be as psychotic but they are all to some extent psychotic.
Joey, Eudox,
Yes, so true on your observation of psychotic neurosis in regards to the mask.
Eudox
Good thing you did not waste more time on the friend. I think at times we give too much leeway to people. Give them too any chances when they’ve already shown us bad character. When You think about it these people are scary. The more I’m thinking about SB and what he’s done and doing its making me feel really uneasy. As BOTV warns me, be careful, he’s dangerous. His mind isn’t right and he hates me. I was living with a freak, didn’t even know it. Sleeping with the enemy. Its very disturbing looking back and now knowing the truth. Now he’s lashing out bexause I want what is rightfully mine, I want him penalized for his dissipation of life savings. How dare I call him out on it!
I sometimes feel like I’m living in someone’s novel. This is some crazy shit
lucy
How dare I call him out on it!
probably he does not have the courage, guts or integrity to admit to anyone let alone himself what he has done. But continues to blame anything and every thing other than himself. It is what makes a CD a CD
Joey
Exactly the case here
Lucy/Joey,
They are above all cowards. They know exactly what they do, they know they are guilty. Their entitlement allows them to think it’s okay to do that because in their haughty arrogance they must make us pay for their deviance, due to our disloyalty of not paying their false construct the homage and adulation it requires. So according to their perverted logic we deserve what we get for them stealing our money. This is what makes them truly perverted, insidious putrifescence (new word) in the extreme.
What they really are are extreme cowards; childish, malicious, menacing empty vessels of nothing worthwhile. They only things they are full of is conniving machinations and delusions all motivated by a deep seeded hatred of their true self and an envious, contempt of others.
Eudox
You have perfectly states the mindset of my precious SB.
My ex used to want to spend money we couldn’t afford. I would reason with him, show him our budget etc. No avail. Finally I would get emotional and throw a fit. Then he would back down. Towards the end of our marriage he did it again, and I decided OK, if we get in financial trouble he will have to get a second job. He left to buy a huge fish tank we couldn’t afford and I said nothing. He came back 5 minutes later – I said “why?” – he said he decided we couldn’t afford it. OK so for 23 years I took grief for preventing him from buying what he wanted because I threw a fit and came unhinged and he was just using me to control himself and make me look unstable. Ding! Light comes on in my head.
I had three hospitalizations for depression. In the last I realized that my family was letting me be “the sick one” so they could hide their own illness. I don’t accept that anymore. I was depressed because I had let myself be surrounded by controlling, manipulating, narcissistic people. I at least had the sense to get help. However much psychiatric help is not really helpful. But over time I kept finding the good stuff culminating in finding Dr. Simon’s writings. And over time I have excluded one by one these sick people from my life.
Kacey
In the last I realized that my family was letting me be “the sick one” so they could hide their own illness.
You and me both. You took the words out of my mouth.
We both made it, Just !
I found Dr Simon via Sara Strudwick and her Interview with him. I have been getting better , A very small bit every day. I hope you are
the same Kacey. I wish you well
Kacey,
It sounds like you’ve healed and got it figured out. Being with CDs does actually make one sick, emotionally, spiritually and physically.
I used to have terrible tension headaches, for years. After I left the SB the headaches appear much less often. I still have tension and problems, but I’m no longer living under that Black Cloud and I do think it makes a difference in my physical well being.
To All,
Please excuse me for popping into the middle of your post, but there is no reply. Kacey, I hope you keep posting and sharing your experiences as we grow from each others knowledge.
If I may ask, when hospitalized, what psych diagnosis did the docs come up with for you?
Thank you
In their eyes Lucy you don’t have anything. In their eyes it’s all theirs and they are entitled to it – in their eyes. They are all freakin psychotic my friend.
Yes it is Lucy – a Steven King novel.
Lucy – you are in a Steven King novel and SB is the clown with the sharp teeth. “We all float down here Johnny” He may not physically harm you (take precautions though) but you can bet your life he’ll emotionally eat you alive after eviscerating you, sticking hot needles in your liver and pouring boiling water of you.
I just thought of something dead set hillarious. I wonder if they believe their own lies? If so then the assholes are actually gaslighting themselves! ROFLMAO
Haha! I dont think he believes his lies. They are thought out and constructed but He does though have misconceptions about me and my character and so he does believe that I am an evil greedy Good for nothing leech.
He believes people are like him – devious.
I like this concept – gaslighting themselves. I need to think about that.
Lucy this explains it perfectly, don’t worry they all HATE us.
“Since [narcissists] deep down, feel themselves to be faultless, it is inevitable that when they are in conflict with the world they will invariably perceive the conflict as the world’s fault. Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad. They project their own evil onto the world. They never think of themselves as evil, on the other hand, they consequently see much evil in others.”
― M. Scott Peck
Lucy,
If they tell the lies long enough, they sure do believe them. If the CDN snap back to reality, they see the truth and the CDN can’t handle it, thereby shape-shifting back to dementia land.
And do they what BTOV – well said. SNAP back to laalalalalalalalal land then out comes the entre word salad! If that fails you end up with the Antichrist.
Lucy – yea shape-shifting back to reality…………werewolves come to mind. That’s the rage inside them. They rage against the world.
I hit post prematurely then. Here’s the kicker, because they rage against the world and if they ever see us angry for a genuine reason, whether we kick our toe and swear or whatever, that presents the opportunity to transfer their rage onto us.
Here’s another thing, how many times when you are not angry have you been accused of being angry by a CD?????????
Eudoxia, one time my mother told me she had never sinned against any of the ten commandments. I told her that our pastor had told us in confirmation class that everyone had sinned against the commandments. She said “not me”. I think she did a mental jujitsu whereby she told a lie she wanted to tell, and then reasoned that she had never lied so it must be true. I think she did believe her lies.
I think my ex didn’t believe his own lies. I suspect several other CD’s in my life did not beleive their own lies. I don’t think it bothers them at all as long as they get away with it.
Kacey – in their eyes they are the shining Gods of purity and goodness of course they don’t sin -puke-. That is in and of itself psychotic. LOL Ask any narc if they have ever done anything bad and none of them ever have and if they do admit to doing something bad it will never be their fault.
They love to lay blame, rather than Work on the problem
Lucy and everyone – at the risk of boring you all to death I am going to re-post this.
When I say that evil has to do with killing, I do not mean to restrict myself to corporeal murder. Evil is that which kills spirit. There are various essential attributes of life — particularly human life — such as sentience, mobility, awareness, growth, autonomy, will. It is possible to kill or attempt to kill one of these attributes without actually destroying the body. Thus we may “break” a horse or even a child without harming a hair on its head.
Erich Fromm was acutely sensitive to this fact when he broadened the definition of necrophilia to include the desire of certain people to control others-to make them controllable, to foster their dependency, to discourage their capacity to think for themselves, to diminish their unpredictability and originality, to keep them in line. Distinguishing it from a “biophilic” person, one who appreciates and fosters the variety of life forms and the uniqueness of the individual, he demonstrated a “necrophilic character type,” whose aim it is to avoid the inconvenience of life by transforming others into obedient automatons, robbing them of their humanity.
Evil then, for the moment, is the force, residing either inside or outside of human beings, that seeks to kill life or liveliness. And goodness is its opposite. Goodness is that which promotes life and liveliness.”
― M. Scott Peck, People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil
I wonder if my ex believed his own lies, or that he just lied to himself as well. He had a form of cancer that is very deadly, a small percentage make it past 5 years, and he was a drug addict most of his life as well so not in the best physical shape. I believe his disconnect with reality actually helped him in this case, he made it just over the 5 year mark. No matter what they told him he believed he was going to make it. He had so many close calls but he always believed he was going to make it, and he did really well for the shape he was in. I attribute it in this case to his disconnect from reality.
It’s always said to think positive. Maybe his is a case in point.
I said to my mother once
” you do realise that you are terminally ill ”
” you have cancer”
“and you are dying”
She just YAWNED and patted her mouth
Its surreal to deal with CD’s. Its an alternate universe.
That’s really odd
Kat, OTOH two ears ago I was diagnosed with dialated cardiomyopathy. My echo gram sword an ejection fraction of 15%. This means my heart was only pumping one quarter of the normal flow. I researched and found that survival rates with my EF were very low over 5 years. I accepted that reality and started writing up instructions on how to do what I do for my husband. I researched funeral homes, got a list of what to do when someone dies, and recorded last messages. However on very low meds I got much better, really back to normal quality of life. It took two years but my ejection fraction is now 25%. Not great but better. I was in no denial and yet I am going strong
Kacey, that’s great, and good to know you were based in reality and dealt with the trauma of it and you are doing well. I know theres got to be many exceptions for every statistic.
Kacey what is OTOH? I am not familiar with that acronym at all. At any rate it sounds pretty impressive that you’ve picked up given the situation. The dichotomy between your health situation and Kat’s ex is striking to say the least. What ever it is you are doing keep doing it!
OTOH – on the other hand
.Eudox, Lucy,
On the external surface, they do believe their lies. Internally, the lies eat them alive. It boils down to pride, false pride and they will protect their
false pride/false self/construct at all costs. If the CD didn’t constantly, delude themselves with false truths and lies the CD would have to take off the mask and look in the mirror. The CD will project all of their false narratives and project all of their inner hate and abominations on others to save their false self.
Instead the CD would rather believe a lie, any lie, instead of reality, the reality being, “truth.”
This is true. I’ve told SN to look himself in the mirror. Look at what he is. He could never do that. It would be depressing and horrifying to know oneself with such bad character. How can he not be severely depressed.
Lucy,
Many of them live in severe depression with other personalities disorders that can be readily diagnosed by a trained professional. As the CDN gets older, as in the clip of the movie the Portrait of DOrian Gray. Gray sells his soul to the devil for lasting beauty. In Sb’s case and others, as they age they themselves can see what they are changing into, the lumps, bumps, sags, and no longer the admired/idolized person he thought he was.
As one gets older it is difficult for one to accept poor behavior on the part of someone that should act as an adult individual. Looking in the mirror, it is difficult for SB not to realize what he is looking at, the mirror is the truth, which the CDN cant deny, however, the CDN can lie to himself, by having young GF, acting immature etc.., All the while knowing they are lying to themselves creating a depression. The CDN rather than eat a giant spoon of humility would rather swallow truckloads of virtual shit, rather than admit fault, which dethrones pride, digests and eats truckloads of horrendous failure succumbing to their own demise which creates many times depression. I hope this helps.
You sure have a way with words! You bet it helps
That’s probably why my ex self medicated with crack, speed, or whatever he could get his hands on, all the time. He only stopped when he contracted the cancer and the meds would have made him too sick.
LOL the last time I told my ex CD friend to “go look in the mirror” she had major melt down and tried to throw me down the stairs! I did add to that that she was not becoming like her father she has become her father was when she lost her shit. I said it quite calmly and meant it. She stared into the abyss to long and became the monster she hunted. That was the same freak show that/who did the gaslighting. Is she psychotic, verily I say unto you, she most certainly is. She is also more of a that than a who. Her husband is the ultimate doormat. I would say most certainly Co-dependent to tolerate the level of abuse she dishes out regularly.
Eudox
Were you long term friends? Tried to throw you down the stairs? Was this the friend that so called searched for the ring?
We’d have enough stories as a group here to have a Netflix series to last several seasons. The stories we have. It’s all so interesting, once we get through the tunnel of hell
Thats why I posted that Idea. I listerned to a mental health nurse on youtube. He said that narcissitic rage, was very similar to a psychotic
episode. I agree
Lucy – yes one and the same psycho. She f**&^& her sister up big time too and guess what? Her sister is coming to visit me next week for 2 weeks, man have we got a few things to talk about. She’s already feeling better -smile-
With my mother and my ex, they tried to make me think I was the one who didn’t remember right. So I started examining their story against mine. I learned to call up all sorts of supporting detail even at an early age. I would re examine an event and see whose story matched all the facts. Turns out their versions were void of any supporting detail. They don’t even try to make them fit the facts, they just assert them with great certainty. It doesn’t convince them but it helped me keep my sanity. Now I have a much better recall of past events than most. I caught my sister in a lie and used supporting detail to prove it. She half admitted I was right but pretended she just hadn’t recalled all that. I bought that second lie at the time. Now I know that is just another tactic to deny that they have lied. At any rate I have good recall of such things as past medical problems etc. since I keep good records I can document my recall and remind myself that when others tell lies my memory of the events is more likely to be right than their lies
Exactly! They are moral cowards. Disgusting, degenerate human slime. I swear it’s worse than murder.
Andy I can’t hit the reply button cause there isn’t one. OTOH LMAO – thanks – I was about to pull the DSM off the shelf!
Hey Guys,
I really would like to know something. How may of the CD you were involved in literally “lost their shit/total composure” and totally wigged out? Screaming fits, rage bombs just exploding for now apparently good reason at all. I am not talking about covert manipulation, little digs, or subtle sarcasm, lying etc. because they’re a given. I’m talking totally losing it? I would really like to know.
I think my precious SB lost his shit when he screamed in the deposition “She’s crazy! Look at her! She’s nuts! She’s schizophrenic!” Other than that, I hadn’t really seen it happen.
Lucy I was accused of being a schizophrenic right before she tried to hurl me down the stairs! erm yea they lose their shit when they can no longer control you and you won’t take their bait. It’s entitlement. They are entitled to be right and us wrong and if we don’t believe it they will make us pay.
Lucy,
This is a prelude to how SB will act in court, as long as you play your cards right. Show no emotions, regardless, of what SB accuses you of. You do not have to defend everything SB accuses you of. SB wants to put you on the defensive, if you allow it AB gains control. If you stay in offense SB can’t engage you.
SB is going to accuse you of all kinds of things, let your lawyer object, or just sweetly say I don’t understand your question. If it has to do with medical and you medication, SB should supeona your doctor. The idea is to not give SB anything. SB is the one who has done wrong not you, SB will twist all this into a nightmare web of lies so distorted he will not remember one lie to the next lie. It will get insane, don’t play into answering him. SB will have nothing if you say nothing. Let your lawyer go at him, knowing SB he will go on the defensive and will hang his own-self. The less you play into his hands, the deeper SB will sink.
If you fall into SB’s trap of engagement you will look to be part of the problem. Don’t do it. Wait till the party after the trial and do all the screaming, yelling, crying, you want, your conduct is also on the line.
Now is the time to use your gifts of character you have been working on that Dr. Simon has taught us. Now is the time to show off who you are, a person of decency, virtue and sound character. Just a suggestion Lucy, go back and read those topics again. All this information will build you up and reinforce your internal, mental and emotional endurance to withstand this assault against you. You are that mighty rock that held everything together, you just didn’t know it at the time.
I know you can do it, once you let the truth take over and exorcise any fears, you will be at ease and free. Once the fears are gone nothing SB says or does will affect you. I hope to hear you are divorced soon, these words from the Judge will be a sentence of freedom, covet your freedom and never again let someone take it from you or attach to you like a leech.
Beware they are in truth everywhere.
Trudge on my friend, your going to make it. That deprived soul sucker is not going to get your soul. Our soul and spirit is our most precious asset and we own it, unless we give it away. I know you, my friend of character, we will get through it.
Know that I admire your tenacity and wherewithal to march on, you too, are a role model for me to continue the fight. Try the meditation you learned several times a day, I am doing this too, it give us strength.
Blessings Kindred Spirit
BOTV
Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I need them. It’s not easy going to battle with this man. He is like a pit bull that just won’t let go till you’re shredded.
I know his game though. And he knows I know it.
He’s been already caught in several lies and contempt of court. I have to believe the judge ALREADY knows I’m the truthful one and doesn’t have to spend much energy deciding liar liar who’s the liar.
I’m anxious to watch my young lawyer at work. She’s been insulted and disrespected by him. I would love to see her prevail, not only for my sake but for hers as well. What this would do to her reputation if she wins! The divorce case is THE DIVORCE of the county, the one people shake their heads about, tell me all the time how sorry they are for me.
I’ve done nothing wrong, besides not leaving the SB much much sooner. That’s it.
I’ll deal with what the judge decides, unless she makes huge error, and I’ll appeal.
There is a difference. totally losing it with no control, totally losing it with full control.
I have been target of screaming fit, rage bombs. Now, I think I know better and believe that those were staged show with sole objective to get her ways. Though all she managed to do was drive me away.
I don’t think I ever saw when she literally “lost their shit/total composure” and totally wigged out. That is probably because I figured out her game after staying separate for several months, and have been separate since then.
Who knows, I may get lucky in court. Though I suspect she is going to play victim and will cry out buckets of tears trying to move judge, jury, lawyers, hangman, court personals, other random people in court room, birds flying over courthouse, maybe even flood away court windows & walls. But, but I just may still get lucky. 😉
Sorry, typo…
totally losing it with no control, appear to be losing it but in full control
Andy,
How long before you go to court? I am sorry you have to go through all this.
I think in so many ways it is harder for men, as so many are ashamed of what they are dealing with. I believe there are many men that just suck it up and say nothing. All my sisters are CD and I have met many men that have told me the same story you are going through and worse.
Yes, the CD are masters at manipulating tears and fake emotions to make themselves look like the victim when it is the other way around. We all will be sending you our prayers and positive energy AndyD.
Keep up the good fight, in the end you will still have won, you won in that the CDN couldn’t take you down, emotionally, mentally and spiritually, that is their true agenda.
BTOV, I am already in court. It is preliminary stages. think it will be another 4-5 months before I get my chance to poke holes in her statement.
I have to believe the judge will see through the emotional game show and know who is the reasonable, solid person.
People playing victim and crying and pouting don’t score points.
I’ve been the victim of the fake anger as well. Didn’t know it was fake at the time, but when a person yells or rages, who wants to be around that? So, yes, I’d just leave the room. He’d not have to answer and he’d get his way, me leaving his presence.
I think you’ll do just fine in court.
This was a while ago because I stopped contact with this “friend”. I picked her up from the airport as a favor to her, she didn’t like where I parked because I didn’t know the airport and so we had to walk a ways. She attacked me in the elevator because I didn’t park close enough according to her. This took me by total surprise, she was punching and pushing and I fought back to get her off me. After that I did some real soul-searching to figure out how I was attracting these types. I was passive and didn’t stand up for myself in life, also I wasn’t aware of the signs of a CD. Needless to say she is no longer a friend!
kat
Some grateful friend huh? wow. That would be the end of it. Sounds like a highly dysfunctional person there.
The best to you Lucy and Andy D. in court. No matter what, the truth always triumphs in the end.
Sounds like she could be a twin of the one who tried to throw me down the stairs. It’s entitlement, jeezzzz Kat you parked to far away? My bad! They are f&*^ing crazy mate. Needless to say mine is an ex friend too. Cheers!
One. My husbands ex. I think more than others she almost believed her desired self image and so blew when reminded about the truth about herself. No make that two, my mother was always blowing when she didn’t get her way, but that may have been tactical rather than really losing it.
Kacey – they don’t like the truth, hell no. Truth is a antithesis to them, they are allergic to it. To stop themselves from breaking out into a rash they have to hysterically lash out at others. Rage is their Valium and antihistamine in one hit. Don’t get in their way with such nonsense as truth – that won’t do. Tactical/losing it rage is rage, lashing out is lashing out. If you can’t keep your shit together you are seriously deranged to some degree.
At some point a CD can get us to a point where we would just like to kill them. There is a decided difference between reacting to a menacing evil and just blowing a gasket based on delusion. In reality if they work us into this state they win – negative supply. Any supply will do as long as we validate their existence then they think they have power over us and in their psychotic heads they win.
Agree with getting you to a point you may totally lose it. My ex got me to that point one day because he was affecting the kids with his deranged stuff, I remember flashing on the thought “is there a gun in here”. I would hope I wouldn’t have done it but at the time I totally lost control. After that I could understand how someone could push someone so far they could kill them. I am thankful we didn’t have one because I’m not sure what would have happened, I would hope I wouldn’t have. A person can snap and at that point and be totally out of control.
” A person can snap and at that point and be totally out of control.”
Kat there is a decided difference in reactions under severe provocation and severe reactions without provocation. Such is the difference between normal people and CD. The fact is THEY want US to break, they want us broken and battered. They want us to take on what they can’t deal with. They overload us with THEIR shit. What happened to you would no doubt be a direct result of projection identification, or similar tactic, highly favored by CDs. They get us worked up DELIBERATELY then we protect ourselves or stand up for ourselves and we are the ones accused of being crazy when it was them all along.
It’s an entirely different story when they attack us either emotionally of physically for doing nothing more than stating our position or asking them to pass the salt, whatever. With them around trying to work out what offends them is an each way bet, and why should we have to anyway? An emotionally intelligent human being assumes full responsibility for their own behavior and if they are offended then that is also their responsibility to deal with. We can do something as innocent as sneeze and it can incur their wrath. They will do and say anything to invite us out of integrity.
Their favored strategies from my experience is deny and deflect, use word salad and try to confuse, negate by accusing us of doing something whether right or wrong or ludicrous in the extreme or gaslighting. They are grovelling, sniveling cowardely swine.
Eudox,
I agree with you, I would venture to say when a CD denies, deflects, use word salads, confusion, negates by accusing us of doing something whether right or wrong or ludicrous in the extreme – is gaslighting.
Anytime, an individual knowingly tries to change or define anothers reality in an unhealthy way, without clearly explaining why in a reasonable transparent fashion, I would question the motives.
The CDNSP are demonic loathsome swine, they never pick one of their own kind, do they, unless they are a lesser flying monkey.
Eudoxia, and when we put them out of our lives we perhaps do more good than staying in the fight. If they cause enough people to run, run as fast as they can, they may reach a point where they want help. Until then we risk falling into one of their traps and they have no incentive to change. I feel for those who are trapped with a CD because of finances.
Unfortunately for them and others many can find a steady supply of new victims. Unfortunate for them, because they will never seek out help if they have fresh blood….. With drunks the drug itself often brings the person to the point of wanting help. And their problem is usually quite easy to identify by those around them so an intervention can be staged. Not so easy with those drunk on power and control eh?
I hope Dr. Simons gives us lots of concrete strategies for dealing with CD’s for those who are trapped with them. Many of us are stuck with them even if we divorce or otherwise separate from them because we have kids in common. And in daily life we run into others that we have to deal with like it or not. But on the whole the best thing is just to get them out of your life IMO.
Kat,
Your friend punched and pushed you? How old is she? Sounds like a two year old. Well…yes. They are…emotionally.
BTOV
So I guess I have been gaslighted for years. That really ticks me off
CD’s, including psychopaths aren’t psychotic. They don’t hallucinate, aren’t ego dystonic. Psychotic people struggle with feelings of a lack of self (schizophrenia) quite often. They are often hyper-sensitive and very fearful. They are almost the polar opposite of the psychopathic type.
LisaO
with feelings of a lack of self, and a complete emptyness inside.
This is at the core of narcissism, it is an secure attachment disorder.
They are often hyper-sensitive
and again so are narcissists, to critisim and nagative feedback which can and does cause them to lash out in some aggressive way.
I am not a doctor, but I wish to air an idea that that some one who is high on the narcissisic scale does indeed live in an alterted state of reality and does have in some way a psychosis of sorts.
Psychosis is an abnormal condition of the mind that involves a “loss of contact with reality. How can any one be perfect which someone with high narcissisic traits believes themselves to be so.
Joey, LisaO,
Nice to have you posting again LisaO. I am going to agree with Joey on this. I do believe the CDN lives at the more etreme end of the narcissistic continuum can have micro psychotic breaks. We know the narcissist does experiences delusional self-perceptions and when faced with reality can become manic and lose sight of reality.
Also, there is a comorbidity of Narcissism and Bipolar Disorder that can run together. We also can have the paranoid and Schizoidal aspect to consider.
I took the following excerpt from in parentheses from Dr. Simons topic:
A Rare but Potentially Dangerous Personality Disorder.
(Now here’s the real kicker about (and some would even argue the “core” of) the paranoid personality: Even though they’re usually not truly delusional, their beliefs border on the delusional. And under stress, folks with PPD can easily “decompensate” (i.e. deteriorate from their usual level of functioning) and become truly delusional (i.e. experience a psychotic break)
I am just a novice in all this, however, I apply my responses according to a lifetime of dealing with the CD. Schizophrenics are diagnosed as such (usual onset in late teens early twenties) even though prior to being diagnosed with Schizophrenia they were CD narcissists.
All this can be very difficult to properly diagnose as we haven’t the ability to be insides ones head of those who are unwilling and or unable to give truthful and reliable information to their own pathology.
Many CD are poor historians of their own symtomolgy and behavioral issues as they project these attributes onto others. This is due to lies, the lie is the truth and the truth is a lie until the CD has no idea what is true anymore. This is when the CDN truly becomes delusional and faced with the truth resorts to psychotic breaks. Just an observation from my own experience.
BTOV – spot on!
(Now here’s the real kicker about (and some would even argue the “core” of) the paranoid personality: Even though they’re usually not truly delusional, their beliefs border on the delusional. And under stress, folks with PPD can easily “decompensate” (i.e. deteriorate from their usual level of functioning) and become truly delusional (i.e. experience a psychotic break)
The above is my ex CD SB unfriend. PPD/MN comorbidity counter dependent. I am firmly convinced at this point in time that evil child of mine is NSpath. They are such complex creatures. Of all the ones I know they all share a comorbidity with another disorder. She had a total psychotic break when she tried to hurl me down the stairs. She’s the one who scored 26 on the PCL.
Personally I think that needs to be revised. Not all psychopaths participate in criminal activities. Although they are all, without exception totally destructive in many other areas. They are all more or less murders (Smakintosh). Then we have Fromm’s classification of necrophilic.
Btov
All narcissists are paranoid on some level. They must be. This is what makes them do what they do, which is destroy everything good,kind and decent in this world. This site is very much the result of THAT FACT !
So we can try and understand; and just maybe find some sort of closure.
Joey,
You are right, narcissists are all paranoid on some level and different degrees. The paranoia come from thinking that everyone else has their perverted thoughts and think like them. Therefore they must be on guard against everyone.
Yes Joey, you are right again, knowledge is power and then, hopefully, comes understanding, then comes forgiveness, be it forgiveness for ones mother/father or for oneself and then, finally, one is able to find true closure.
Joey you are dead right. You’ve said a few times now you are not a doctor, and neither am I but we have both been on the receiving end of these psychological parasites to have an in depth knowledge of what motivates them. I totally agree they would all be paranoid to some degree who wouldn’t be when your entire life is based on a lie and you live in fear of exposure on a daily basis.
Eudox, Joey,
You see the CDN fears that everyone is like them. Therefore, the evil the CDN perpetrates or fantizes about, in their minds will be done to them. So, the CDN are guard for the slightest hint of their own delusional paranoid thinking or actions in another to the point of confabutlation.
Eudox,
They are remarkably cruel and vindictive IF you get in their way, somehow. And you may not know what you did and why they are so angry, because they don’t feel they owe you an explanation — they won’t lower themselves. So, what starts as general lack of communication based on their feelings of contempt, ends in cruelty and faux rage, or REAL rage if they are fear based narcissists.
They sometimes appear to be hell bent on destruction, from the get go, because they are callous and sensation seeking.
My former s-I-law would try to whip up emotion of all kinds as her boredom threshold was very low. And her callousness and lack of sensitivity seemed to be cruel on a few ocassions, but the intent was to cause sensation.
She’s out of the picture now. What a nightmare. Our family dynamics were not great to begin with and she got in the middle of it and tried to whip up a sh** storm of fun for herself. Oh shudder…what a sick, weird woman.
Hey LisaO long time no see !
The one you mentioned sounds like the one around here the local SB. Sounds like Narc/Histrionic comorbidity. They must be the center of attention always and if they are not they will say or do something totally outrageous to get it. They are loud and over the top – they lord it all over others in an outlandish, outrageous fashion. When underneath all there is, is a steaming pile of filth. These types will destroy entire families and social circles but then again so do NSpaths with less dramatic delivery – more cold, contemplated, underhanded, twisted and conniving machinations at play. They are masters of triangulation but then again most of them are except the lesser/fragile narcs as they aren’t smart enough. They are human filth.
Lisa re your previous post. I disagree with your take on psychosis – it is not a pre-requisite to have hallucinations visual or audio present to be psychotic. Neurotics are confused by reality. Psychotics are divorced from reality. Joey summed it up nicely. It is well documented that all CD are psychotic to certain degrees some more than others. The reason that sets them apart from the neurotics is they view everybody else as extensions of themselves. they do not see others as separate, unique individuals with their own likes, dislikes etc. They see everybody else as their subjects specifically for the purpose to either supply or frustrate the CD with him/her getting it’s needs met. Supply whether it’s positive or negative fuel for them is required in order to validate their false construct. Lisa that’s psychosis mate.
This is classic Varknin “No matter how strong your case or how compelling your argument you will never convince me you exist” END QUOTE He was saying this to one of his students who was trying to convince him she is a unique and separate individual. Varknin is a very high functioning malignant narc who claims to be fully psychopathic, notwithstanding he is psychotic.
Anyway neurosis and psychosis aside welcome back!
It’s amazing how much trouble one cD can stir up affecting so many lives
On the subject of CD’s lying, my ex used to tell people he had started a social help project in one place that he did not. When we moved there it was already going and we had only indirect involvement. I used to be embarrassed that people would think ill of me because of his lies. Perhaps I should have trusted others more to see what a liar/braggart he was. When I would tell him it wasn’t true he would say that I just didn’t remember. Then I found a book that detailed the founding of that project and showed that it was founded 2 years before we moved to that place. He said “I guess you are right”. A few days later I heard him telling the same lie to someone.
Funny thing was that he didn’t need to brag. He was quite skilled in certain areas. Later I decided that what he needed was an ego boost (not having read Dr. Simons at the time 🙂 ). I thought he didn’t feel good about himself and that was the core of his problem. So one day I started praising him for all the things he had accomplished. He told me to stop, that it was making him nervous. I knew then our marriage was over but because of the kids it took several more years for me to split. I am not sure I still understand it….why did he tell lies to brag himself up but get “nervous” when I told truths to prop up his self esteem? Maybe just another control thing…ok for him to prop himself up in the eyes of other but not for me to do it? Still not sure what was going on there, but it was weird.
Kacey,
My first thought, he felt guilty for the lies he was telling. And, yes, they can experience feelings of guilt at times. They do to a degree have a conscience and do know right from wrong. I believe he was reacting more to his own perceived ideas about himself. It also depends where your X is on the continuum and how pathological he is on the scale. Just a comment of what came to mind when I read your post.
Thanks BTOV. Good thoughts
While attending a psychiatric appointment with me son, Who has had different diagnoses, his doctor said to me ” he’s an enigma. I really like — His diagnosis could be — or —, it doesn’t matter. I treat the symptoms.
A big difference with the CD. First off they typically don’t seek treatment. They are above it. And I don’t believe there is any medication which can help them. It boils down to Bad Character.
I asked the SB at a counseling session if he thought he “made a mistake” or does he have bad character. He puffed up and said “well my history shows I have good character “. Boy did I later find out his history – secret history! I think i had him figured out. He’s a bad seed. Cannot be fixed. As Dr Simpn says CHARACTER MATTERS.
Lucy,
You crack me up. Can you imagine SB in court countering by saying “well my history shows I have good character.” I can’t imagine anyone keeping a straight face on that one! Thanks, I needed a good belly laugh.
Even better, if he says “well my history shows I have good character.”…
I believe he is disbarred attorney. So, you can prop him a bit and then gently ask him to talk about “his legal practice history and how it related to his good character” in the court arena in middle of knowledgeable people. Of course, you should have some solid evidence to show him in bad light with respect to his past legal practice, just in case he manages to pull it off with straight face.
It’s “of record” that he’s disbarred, and the findings, and also the Supreme Court findings of his activities and now recently another case that went to Supeme Court of the legal malpractice insurance carrier suing him re misrepresented when he took out the policy that he was not currently undergoing investigation or reason to believe that he would be. His legal mako insurance for rescinded. He has a case where he’s being sued by a client – and now it’s not insured. Here is loads of evidence showing his bad character, lying , etc
Typical! They think their shit doesn’t stink. Also when will they ever admit to any wrong doing? They will take every opportunity to turn it around and blame their behavior on YOU! They are the most low life, cowardly form of degenerate scum on the planet.
What makes them truly psychotic is they just can’t see that we can see through their facade when we finally do. They may have us fooled for some time but eventually with enough bastardry, they come unstuck they show their true colors and the penny drops. Then we see them. Now here is the really good part. I doubt with any one of us seasoned ticket holders here – WE WON’T GET FOOLED AGAIN.
My CD alert antennas are working pretty well now.
Well thank you for the welcome back! It’s nice to be appreciated. I sure appreciate all of the comments here. They are well thought out.
Well good night everybody. Dream CD free dreams!
LisaO
I love hearing from you. You are always spot on with a taste of humor and I can sense your underlying happiness through your posts We all may be disturbed by the Character Disturbed – but life does go on and we can find happiness in life again – irregardless of the CDs in our lives.
Hi Lucy,
I responded yesterday but it didn’t go through. Thank You So Much! I feel the same way about you and other posters here. You are all such deep thinking, spirited, strong people. You leave me in your dust! Btov, Eudoxia, and all others!
Hope to be more active here. Psychopathy is a very difficult p, complex and easily misunderstood phenomenon. Dr. Simon provides the best explanations, descriptions and how-to-deal-with guides to dealing with it!
Eudoxia,
What does your daughter do for a living that she is able to evade the scrutiny of employers so well? Is she self employed– work from home? I gather from your posts that she is successful but I may be wrong.
Lisa – she successfully cons people that’s about it. As far as anything else goes it is filtered back to me via others who see her on social media nothing more. As far as her considering herself successful, she probably does. However, she fails at being a responsible family member that’s for sure. Showing loving, kindness and being considerate of others and looking out for others is not in her program. Looking after herself is what she is about first and foremost and she’s proven that time and time again.
Eudoxia,
Just have to thank you again for mentioning the emotional neglect issue. I am in the process of reading the book “running on empty” and this is going to provide some missing pieces. This is definitely my experience and am so glad you posted about it! I can see how this neglect issue could run the gamut, from mild to more serious. I’m just so glad you said something about it, you don’t know how much this will help me so thank you again! I always thought I had to raise myself because my parents didn’t, but of course a child cannot raise themselves. They were well meaning but did not have the skills, I also see where I repeated some of that with my own children. This is really going to help me piece some things together to make more sense, that’s always good. Something like this can be life changing if I can apply it and grow from it. I read that she has four chapters on how to heal from it, so looking forward to those.
Kat,
I think this is applicable to many others including myself. I had healed myself from this long before they ever put a name to it though. From my personal experience the one thing that was holding me back was having the hidden belief I needed to be accepted. It is important for empaths in particular to be seen for who we are. We feel highly energized to correct wrongs and fix things. Unfortunately with narcs and other lesser disturbed individuals this is not possible. Why because of their own inner deep seated insecurities they need us to agree with them. If we do otherwise they see us as injuring them. That’s what narcissistic supply is all about. Moral cowards.
This is a big hurdle people with CEN and empaths needs to cross. Quite often being highly empathic is a result of CEN the other extreme is narcissism. It’s like two kids may have the same upbringing but chose two different paths whereby one chooses to disconnect and the other chooses to stay connected but maybe at a reduced level.
I agree with you Kat in this is a big game changer. I was able to emotionally re-connect with my son in his primary school years, plus he did successfully complete object relations where my daughter was raised by my parents and did not successfully complete object relations. She has a double abandonment wounds. She would have full blown CEN but chose the cowards way out by scapegoating others me in particular.
However, I do not feel it possible at this stage for a narc to be anything other than a narc. These leopards do not change their spots nor can they be made to. Nor do I think a miraculous cure will be found anytime too soon. As specially since the health industry is anything but a heath industry and modern day psychology and psychiatry treat the symptoms not the cause.
Many good books are written in an effort to help people understand the nature of Type B spectrum disorders and this is good. There are many healing modalities out there for people to heal after relationships with these types. I don’t see too many healing modalities available for these Types to specifically heal themselves. Let’s face the reality, some of them are just pure evil and they love the skin they’re in.
I’m glad you are benefiting from it it’s why I posted it. It also allows us a deeper level of understanding how some of our kids and siblings may or my not be Type B and why. It helps us to reconcile the fact that it was unintended on our part or by our own parents, they struggled and suffered as much as any others do. CEN is not one and the same as narcissistic abuse.
I am glad you found it because it will set you free. And you owe me no thanks whatsoever.
Many blessings Kat
Eudox
Thanks for that info. It’s interesting. Something I hadn’t ever thought of any deeper than the fact that my parents didn’t feel the need to communicate on a deep level with us kids (five of us). They didn’t know how to. We all took our issues to a friend or kept our problems to ourselves, suffered through them silently.
I think once I have worked a 12 step program, did the timeline of my life, I did see where the bullying occurred, both in the home and at school.
The beauty of a recovery program is that you do a searching and fearless moral inventory, this can arrest any of the processes that may be beginning in yourself, I can see it in my own life, so this is a blessing. Soon as I cut of the relationship, I found the presence of any of this, along with having asked God, removed.