Narcissists Can’t Recognize a Higher Power

What is a “Higher Power”

Folks familiar with any of the 12 step-based “recovery” programs have heard the term “higher power.” And the term can mean different things to different people. Higher power respecters don’t have to believe in God, per se. Nor do they have to believe in any god-like personage. They simply recognize that some things bigger (and greater) than themselves exist. And that’s where narcissistic individuals run into big trouble.

Narcissists simply can’t conceive of a power greater than themselves. Oh, they might give “lip-service” to the notion. But in their hearts, they just know nothing or no one matters more than they do. They believe in their superiority. And they possess a misguided sense of personal power. So, their very character presents a challenge for traditional “recovery” programs.

Narcissists and Substances

Narcissists look at substance use in a characteristically troubling way. They just know they get away with what others might hesitate to do. And they don’t sense the same risk others face. They trust themselves implicitly. After all, they’re “special” – above the common throng. And therein lies the problem. They’ll delve unhesitatingly into risky territory and before you know it, they get hooked. And when they do get hooked, their pride won’t let them admit it. Moreover, their resistance only increases when someone tries to coerce them into “getting help.”

The Importance of a Higher Power in “Recovery”

The concept of a higher power is central to the process of addiction recovery. And because narcissists have such a problem with this notion, they often do poorly in programs employing the 12-step model. They can’t accept powerlessness, so they can’t easily embrace the critical first step. And they can’t even conceive of a “higher power,” so they have great difficulty coming to believe in one. Most importantly, the whole notion of subordinating their life and will is abhorrent. But doing so goes to the very heart of the crucial third step.

No one makes a major life course-correction without submitting to a higher power or operating principle. We all like doing things the way we prefer. And it can be humiliating to admit  when our ways have simply stopped working. To change, we have to recognize something greater outside ourselves. And then we have to be of a mind to turn ourselves over to that higher power or authority. Letting principle take us over – letting it truly govern us, defines genuine “recovery.” It’s salvation from our worst enemy – ourselves.

Higher Power Work in Therapy

I deal a lot in “higher power” issues with the narcissists I treat. Yes, I said I treat narcissists. And yes, I’m aware there a lot of folks who say they’re untreatable. True, some have pathology that exceeds our ability to treat effectively by any means. And that largely depends on what kind and degree of narcissism is present. (See also: Two Main Varieties of Narcissists.) But the bigger problem usually lies in they type of treatment they receive. Few clinicians know how to, let alone are willing to, confront directly the narcissist’s egomaniacal thinking and behavior.

I’ll have more on narcissism and treatment next week.

Notes:

Character Matters will air live at 7 pm (EDT) Sunday June 30, 2017. So, call-in at (718) 717-8296 or (501) 258-8326 to share some thoughts or ask a question.

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96 thoughts on “Narcissists Can’t Recognize a Higher Power

    1. I have the eternal sick humor, learned from doctors and nurses I was pawned off on, “They think they are the Himalayas,” true that.

      Himalayan salt, anyone? Great detox!!!

  1. Just thought I would like to share this.

    ” I do’nt have talent, I have tenacity”

    Tenacity in it’s self is a talent.

    Do’nt ever give up.

    Keep the faith

    Joey

  2. In my experience with my sociopathic ex – he liked living “on the edge”, which substance abuse fits into perfectly. He was never happier than when doing very risky behaviors.

    1. Excellent article, it touches on many of the aspects of narcissism and the problems in treating it. I agree, wholeheartedly, the number one problem with the CDN as I have always seen it, they believe they are God. Don’t get me wrong their are many that hide under the guise of the churches and spirituality.

      This is where we can really be conned, meeting a CDN in a spiritual setting can lead one to believe this is a great person, they have humility. Wrong, wrong, wrong. This attribute of being all that and more is a resounding theme and one can easily be lulled by these con artists.

      Ultimately, with every CDN I have dealt with, when their true colors shown through, indeed they hadn’t any reverence for a higher power, except themselves. Even in light of all evidence and how foolish their behavior was, how much they had lost, families, jobs, money, they still adhered to the belief everyone else was at fault and wrong. There wasn’t an iota of perception to look inward and admit, number one they had a problem and worse, to rely on a higher power.

      1. Btov

        Dr Malkin says they have an addiction to feeling special. They obtain their supply from religion, through charity work, gift giving, or being GOD. It is all about feeling special.

  3. I remember a young woman describing her boyfriend as someone who couldn’t be a narcissist because he deeply believed in God.

    He believed so fervently that he had a steam trunk full of letters he wrote to his friend, God. The weird thing was, the letters were written as if to a compatriot. I figured that not only was it highly Narcissistic but the apex of Narcissism to treat a higher power like one of your buddies (with super powers.)

    There was a lot of begging cajoling and trying to strike up deals with his friend, God, too. Like, “I tell ya what, if you arrange a red corvette for me, I will do xyz for you. Next month…”I am still waiting for my corvette!”

    Too funny. It reminds me of people who consider the greater universe a Spiegel catalogue and all they have to do to manifest a new pair of shoes is imagine it’s already happened. Again, the individual trying to ‘manifest abundance,’ places him or herself squarely in the centre of the universe and demands his or her needs be met. This isn’t appealing to a higher power. It is treating all of life as subservient to your needs.

  4. God helps the helpless!

    Isaiah 25:4 declares, “For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defence for the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat..

  5. I remember a young woman describing her boyfriend as someone who couldn’t be a narcissist because he deeply believed in God.

    He believed so fervently that he had a steam trunk full of letters he wrote to his friend, God. The weird thing was, the letters were written as if to a compatriot. I figured that not only was it highly Narcissistic but the apex of Narcissism to treat a higher power like one of your buddies (with super powers.)

    There was a lot of begging cajoling and trying to strike up deals with his friend, God, too. Like, “I tell ya what, if you arrange a red corvette for me, I will do xyz for you. Next month…”I am still waiting for my corvette!”
    Too funny. It reminds me of people who consider the greate universe a Spiegel catalogue and all they have to do to manifest a new pair of shoes is imagine it’s already happened. Again, the individual trying to ‘manifest abundance,’ places him or herself squarely in the centre of the universe and demands his or her needs be met. This isn’t appealing to a higher power. It is treating all of life as subservient to your needs.

    1. The guy with the corvette is laughable. What he’s in all likeliness manifesting is the desire to attain favour with God because that’s what he’s actually putting “out there” so he’ll get exactly what he asks for the desire to attain special favour with God LOL that would be cute if he wasn’t a CD.

      What I did once when my car was running quite poorly and it was a good car it just had this hiccough that have me a few problems. So I decided to manifest a new car so I envisaged this lovely brand new silver car. What I was actually desiring was a problem free car. So Universe went to work and when mine chucked it’s toys out of the cot and refused to start I ended up with that silver car alright but it was only a rental as mine had to go in for a few days.

      As it turned out, the problem was with the air flow meter or some such and they had to get a special guy in who specialised in Nissan racing cars. Anyway needless to say it cost me a bit of money but it got fixed and was running as good as ever. So the motto to this story is be careful what you wish for LOL. I did in the end get what I needed though – a problem free car.

  6. It is treating all of life as subservient to your needs.

    Just like an Infant. Just like a child. The cut off point seems to occur after the child reaches the age of 8. All children are highly narcisstic upto 8, But to become a problem they must be compairing themselves to others. Dr Brad Bushman.

    1. Joey

      I’ve been listening to a considerable amount of Dr Gabor Mate who works with addicts and addictions. Mate has uncovered a link between addiction and toddlers failing to complete object relations. He claims that if this stage is not completed then the child will not be able to make the delineation that they are separate entities to their mothers and others. Therefore they see everybody as nothing more than extensions of themselves there specifically to either supply or frustrate them in them getting their needs met. In other words IT’S ALL ABOUT ME. That explains a lot about narcissists given their addiction is to supply.

      1. Oh one more thing and the most important correlation – according to Mate object relations is critical to the development of empathy.

        So what he’s saying and it explains a lot to me is – If they fail to complete object relations then they remain as toddlers without empathy seeing everyone else as nothing more than extensions of themselves there only to supply or frustrate the narcissist or addict in him/her getting its needs met ( say it for a reason). Mate doesn’t touch on narcs but they fall in the category of addicts in a big way.

      2. Eudoxia, The dynamics you describe play out in the New Age community where the idea that, “we are all one,” can be easily twisted by the Narcissistic mind to mean, “everybody is me.”

        I feel that the “all one” philosophy can be beneficial and helps most people keep perspective — accepting they are a small part of something vast, yet meaningful, but in the conceptual universe of the Narcissistic individual, not helpful.

        1. Lisa – the bastards are rampant everywhere! Look under any rock and you’ll find one. Narcs are attracted to the philosophy of ME they are the center of their Universe and have to be the center of ours and they insist upon that. I just don’t happen to agree with them and these days I will most surely point it out. I will rain on their parade, I will burst their bubble and I will have absolutely no compunction in deflating their super inflated egos. That’s the fun part – just point out reality, they’re likely to blow a gasket. If they want to cross my path they won’t remain there for long.

          The cat is well and truly out of the bag with these guys now. Too many people have been screwed over by them that it is no longer a little understood topic. It never ceases to amaze me just how many people I meet who have been preyed upon by these brazen energy thieves. They need to be starved out of existence and I intend doing just that. Anytime one enters the picture I will paint them straight out of it and I won’t muck around either – mind you it is totally dependent on the type of narc they are as to how well they will fare with me at this stage of the game, mainly because I just so loath their kind. If I am feeling particularly playful I might just go for the kill -wicked grin-

  7. This is to all of you lovely people who know beyond any doubt there most certainly is a higher power at work. For every narcissist that has been taken out of my life (thank God!) another has come in their place. The others that have come into my life now are compassionate, empathic, caring, humble and biophilic.

    God will never leave you empty.
    He will replace everything you’ve lost.
    If he asks you to put something down.
    It is because he wants you to pick up something greater.

    I found, as I’m sure many others here have also found, is that during my trials and ordeals during the processing phase of narc abuse was my relationship to God only further strengthened. Their abuse had in effect the opposite affect of what they were trying to achieve – my total destruction. It actually bought about total liberation.

    I lost a daughter but I gained a better quality one. My son proposed to his lovely partner of 3 years last night. He proposed to her on bended knee with the wedding date yet to be announced. Guess who won’t be on the invite list????? And if there is one thing narcs hate it’s not being invited.

    There was also another overnight guest staying with them last night. My ex CD friend’s sister, who was threatened the last time she stayed with my son by her sister – my ex CDF. The last time she tried to stay there, former ex CDF had to step up the abuse didn’t she, talk about childish little toddler tanty she went FULL CHUCKY and demanded her sister not only leave his house immediately but that she stay in a motel and if she didn’t she would never speak to her again!!!! Freaking pathetic, they are. That backfired. It always does with these assholes. Her sister no longer gives a flying rats ass about her threats she’s seen the light so to speak. What has happened is we’ve swapped sisters. LOL Ex CDF can have mine, I never want to lay eyes on her again. Ex CDF’s sister and I have reformed a close bond due to shared experiences with the evil one. As it is, she and I have a very close bond with God we are both highly spiritual people.

    People of good heart – I do believe what we are seeing during these times is literally speaking the Biblical sorting of the wheat from the tars. It is truly what is happening in my life. The assholes are being removed to be replaced by loving, caring individuals. Such are the blessings bestowed upon us after enduring such demented, malicious and vile abuse.

    What is the best revenge – BE HAPPY!

    1. I am happier now. The mother was just a spoilt nasty little brat, dressed up as a adult. It is just how calculating her and the grandmother were in search for power and control.
      It is because of the calculating behaviour that I have no concern for her or the brother and his breed.

      1. Joey,

        We would be fools to have concern for their breed as specially now that we know who and what they are. They take everything they can while they actually give nothing in return except crumbs of hope. Their giving is actually a demand that we compromise who we actually are in order to serve them by giving them what they want. They want everything from us, they see it as their right of package for us to give and them to take EVERYTHING. They want the Lion’s share of US and to rule the roost to ensure we comply and give it co-operatively to them. Brats alright extremely evil brats.

        Well what they can take is a flying a F^^&% as far as I am concerned.

        1. It is as the VERY GOOD DR Simon States, When he treats the CDN. They must recognize something higher. The grand mother used to say ” You can lead a Horse To Water ,You Cannot Make It Drink”
          It is when AND ONLY WHEN they start to drink, I could feel some concern for them.

          1. Joey,
            They have to look in the mirror and take a hard look at who they really are. They’re scared to do that.

  8. They are tragic. Everything about a severely disordered person is a tragedy. The fact that they can’t submit, won’t submit, indicates a deep contempt that might originally stem from a fundamental distrust of the abilities and independent natures of other people.

    They may like who they are and not be willing or able to change. At the same time they can’t likely imagine what it would be like to be any other way. As humility and joy are entwined, it is doubtful they experience joy as they lack humility.

    I think of the feelings I have when I am most focussed on projecting my ‘self’ into the social sphere, in order to have an impact. It borders on a desire to dominate, but isn’t quite the same thing (I hope!) In that state I can be happy but deep joy, no…that is the product of an entirely different emotional realm. And they are like this all the time, but much more so! Yuk.

    1. They are tragic. Everything about a severely disordered person is a tragedy. The fact that they can’t submit, won’t submit, indicates a deep contempt that might originally stem from a fundamental distrust of the abilities and independent natures of other people.

      LisaO I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I believe they envy others for that reason. I used to watch the way my ex CDF would size up people particularly anybody new. To be honest I think they are even more deeply troubled than even the experts in the psychiatric world fully know and understand.

      They utterly despise independent free thinking people. Those who have joy, autonomy, grace and humility who can be open and honest. All things CD are allergic to. Lisa it’s very interesting what you said also about projecting yourself into the social sphere. I have found myself doing similar only that it’s usually been in preparation for a meeting or some other type of event where I have to do the talking. I think I understand what you are saying. It is a persona we put on in order to captivate an audience and it isn’t really, fully us. We have to wear a certain persona when we have a job to do but it’s not who we really are it’s just that professional hat we wear so to speak. That’s just a normal part of ego and is not the same as CD who project that reality ALL THE TIME. The problem with them is they will tear down anybody they see as threatening their construct. A healthy person won’t.

      A healthy person won’t rip your head off if you call them out on a comment they may have made socially compared to the politically correct version they have to adopt in the office. Do that to a narcissist and well enter the Antichrist!

  9. Alas, there is a time for sorrow, a time for anger and then…acceptance. I had deep sorrow for a fairly short time. That turned to anger, which was a more pleasant sensation. When I found myself tipping into rage on ocassions, I was usually able to pull back into plain anger.

    What I perceived to be a self stoking rage, wasn’t the answer either. The rage I felt was becoming sneering and arrogant in its own way. I had to acknowledge it and prevent myself from my own developing rage-pathology.

    1. LisaO
      I can rate to the sorrow and anger. I was angry for a long time, about two years in fact, and it subsided. But now again afyer settling the divorce out of court and accepting a horrible “deal” I am again angry. I don’t like being angry every dam day. I hope to be rid of anger again in time, but i don’t know, so displeased with the whole legal divorce ordeal, attorney fights, all the money spent on attorney fees defending bull shit allegations, I’m totally angered by the abuse of me not only from the SB out of court but also through the courts. I’m sick of feeling like shit all the time

      1. Lucy,
        Look to who you are inside, don’t let others and circumstances define you.
        It may take time, but out of the rubble “YOU” will persevere. Yes, you were treated badly by the system, I know this all to well. Remember, this will tell you who and what they are as the courts could had put a stop to it. It was about the money, making money and the judges and lawyers are in collusion.

        Ultimately it boils down to greed. Greed is not in your character, neither is greed in mine. There is what is called poetic justice, it will not appear on our demand, however, the day will come, one must be patient.

        Keep focused on going forward, as you have encouraged me, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Above all, hold your head high, try to put this behind you at work and don’t give the SB’S plural the benefit of seeing you hurt. Be humble and exude a humble pride, never let them see your pain.

        There came a time when I was angry about stuff, and someone said to me “It’s just Stuff” yea, right!!!!! It’s my stuff and everyone covets it. Looking back, I will never forget these words, as they are so true. It is just stuff, when you die you take nothing, the happiest days of my life is when I had little.

        Today, there is a battle going on, a battle over ones mind and soul. You have your mind and soul, Lucy, protect these, as these are your most valuable assets. No one, can take these from you unless you choose to give them up. Lucy, you fought this battle with decency and integrity, don’t let these negative feelings pull you down. If you let these feelings of feeling like “shit” pull you down it is a win for SB>>>>>>> Don’t let this happen.

        Your a beautiful person, with love and empathy, kindness, my dear one, you don’t realize your gifts. Go deep within yourself and you will find the way. Use your love of humanity and what you have learned for the benefit of others. You will not have to lift a finger and SB will fall in his own worm hole.

        Lucy, get healthy, take care of yourself and be good to yourself. I know it’s not easy by no means, as you believe in me, I believe in you. Fight the good fight, its not over, you will find your potential, way beyond what you ever imagined and it is within you. I look at the SB I left and I feel nothing but pity. You see, I am real thing (person), I am authentic inside and out and so are you. You can’t buy this gift, Lucy, this gift is available to all of us, it is a choice, and it presents “if” we choose to let it shine and grow. The CDMNSP spit in characters face with their false mask of pride.

        For me my gifts come from God, prayer has been my refuge and I know I have grown beyond what I ever imagined and I have an inner peace beyond all understanding. I deal with pain, loss and a continued mess after 6 years, however, I let it go, and in doing that, I aspired to deapts of understanding humanity, humility and yes, at times despair, but through all that I acquired enormous character.

        Lucy, you have been an inspiration to all of us, I admire what you still do for your daughter. Wow, you are an awesome lady, take back your power and use it for you. Grow and aspire to be the best you can be.

        Hugs and Gods blessings to you and your loved ones.

      2. Lucy,

        Everyone is dealing with this shitty stuff. Some people are dealt more, and others are dealt less. That is life. Do you think your husband is happy? If you think he is gloating, then just greet him “Hi! I hope you too are doing great!” next time you meet him. Of course it has to be genuine wish… people’s gut almost always figure out the truth.

        Often all choices are unpleasant, but one must pick one of them. Different people just prioritize different things:
        – live and deal with a garbage bag of a spouse, vs deal with lawyer and court to get rid of that garbage bag.
        – fight out the court case to its bitter end against a person who thrives in fighting, vs settling outside
        – leaving out a lot on the table to get quickly get rid of slime, vs negotiating hard to save money at the expense of getting covered with slime for several weeks.

        It is simple, if one plays fair and other plays unfair, then the party indulging in unfair practice will often extract short-term gains.

        These are all choices that one needs to make.
        People with severe migraine will pay good money to get rid of perpetual headache. And, you had a choice between migraine and money. It is personal choice and it varies. I probably will choose to fight, mainly because my personal cost/benefit analysis preference.

        What is most important is, does one has sufficient savings or future earnings to meet all needs, and still have sufficient left for unplanned emergency and some pleasurable wants (not “desires”, just “wants”).

        1. Continuing the last part…

          It is just about having sufficient money. Anything more just goes away one way or another to “desires” and other unnecessary things. Anything less means long-term misery unless one can find happiness in less than basic needs.

          I assume you have sufficient money, so getting rid of garbage bag as soon as possible is good personal choice if one prefers peace over money.
          If you do not have sufficient money, then maybe you made a bad choice. But it still very much depends upon the person.

          Anyways bottom-line is… Choice has been made. Live with it. Maybe even enjoy it. 🙂

          1. AndyD,

            Well said my friend, you are absolutely right. We all live with the choices we make including the CDN, in time it all comes full circle and the CDN in the end are the biggest losers and many time ourselves.

            AndyD, after D day my X’s childhood friend came to see me. He told me my X was a fool and the best thing my X ever had was me. Your wife is a fool too, you too are the best thing that she ever will have.

            I choose to go all the way, trial and all. The fire raged and I knew how much financially I would lose and this is something I had to dismiss. I knew if I gave into anything, if I gave an inch he would take a mile. I needed to show I would not break, I could not show an ounce of weakness. It was a battle and I stood my ground, not for the sake of monetary gain but to show I was my own person and would not tolerate anymore manipulation. I had to send the crystal clear message that all strings were dissolved.

            It was the hardest thing in my life to do, the fire is still smoldering with unresolved issues due to his belligerence. More than anything I feel sadness for all that did not have to be and grieve at times. I am grateful my eyes are open. My X knows I am a worthy opponent that will not buckle, this has set the stage for his thinking of the ramifications of any future contact or hovering.

            I wish you well in the days ahead, I am glad I stood my ground, it has made me a stronger person and regardless, you to will come out on top a stronger person too.

            Hugs

      3. Lucy,

        So much has happened to you in the last couple of years. Anger is part of emotionally processing it. Be patient with yourself. You will eventually reach acceptance of the situation and the anger will diminish over time.

        The main thing is you are intact, strong and a good person. You didn’t deserve any of this and still, like Andy and Btov you soldier on — bloodied but unbeaten!

      4. Lucy – everything you are feeling is totally understandable. It’s not just for the fact they are the lowest of the low, it’s that you are simply unable to fathom or comprehend the actual betrayal. I believe it boils down to betrayal. You gave your heart and soul to a person you loved and this person just kicked you to the curb while blaming you every time he stuck the boot in. I think it’s actually the betrayal that incites the anger and rage we can sometimes feel. This is not the same as the anger and rage that resides inside them. They have to slander and malign us and our good natures, they slime us with the filth that is actually them. They are first and foremost moral cowards and vile and insidious human replicants.

        I seriously recommend you make a Voodoo Doll (not a real one) but a doll that represents SB – then beat the shit out of it. The doll acts as a conduit for you to transfer all your anger and fury into. The healing aspect about it is you are actually giving yourself permission to feel it by allowing it to erupt. So you don’t judge yourself because of it, you are allowing yourself to be angry and as such you are accepting it. If we resist our own anger it just makes us more angry in the end. It’s best if give ourselves permission to do it. That way we can let it go. Just let it all out, scream as loudly as you like at it (warn your neighbours first so they don’t ring the police). Tell it to take back what doesn’t belong to you. See the thing that these guys do is bring out the very worst in us. If we let it out as much as we can in one fell swoop it’s a huge relief. Then once you’re done take it away and throw it in a river or off a bridge. Lucy, honestly it’s what I did and I felt so relieved after it. I slept for about 10 hours straight because I was emotionally exhausted. That’s when I was up and down like a roller coaster. I wanted to die. It was just horrible. But I can tell you it worked very well. Once I had given myself permission to be angry and I could allow it then I got it pretty well over and done with. Don’t get me wrong, there are still times I can become angry when I think about certain things done but it’s not the same burning, intense anger. It’s somehow been transformed.

        Then do something healing and uplifting. I recommend listening to Lisa A Romano and/or Meridith Miller they are both very good and they will help you reconnect with your authentic self which is currently being traumatized by anger. Seriously Lucy, the doll works. You are not cursing SB it’s not the real deal so there is no karmic retribution attached. You are simply transferring your anger into an object that will be cleansed and purified in the water. Symbolically your anger is being taken away as it floats down stream. You will be cleaning and purifying your emotions then give yourself a long hot bath in Epsom salts. It worked for me.

        The doll is a very healing modality. Because when we are angry we generally chastise ourself for this as we know it’s not a healthy state to be in. But sometimes it needs to come out and this is a controlled event. By making the doll we are giving ourselves full permission to be angry. By doing so we can fully express that anger without holding back or holding onto any of it. You will be amazed at what comes out, and when it does you will be relieved. You may even be shocked to know that was inside you – I was. I could not believe what came out of me and to think that had I not done that it could well still be inside me. I also realised that what did come out of me actually really didn’t belong to me. It was like a terminator hate bot got injected into me. It’s what pulls us down into that downward spiral. Give it a burl by the time it’s over you’ll be glad you did.

        1. Eudox, Lucy,

          I think its not only the betrayal but awakening to the realization of the mind control methods they used to manipulate us. This isn’t an easy eye opening experience to accept. When the lies are 99% true hidden 1% come out, it can knock one off their feet. The gaslighting, wow! when the CD tactics are so subtle and disguised.

          When we engage in a relationship with the CDNMSP we truly enter the realm of the Twilight Zone. The surreal becomes reality and we lose sight of what is real and ourselves. As you say Eudox, Know Thy Self.
          When we truly know ourselves, the creeping blood suckers of society can’t prey upon us. It is understandable, so many of were so young and inexperience, the knowledge and resources were not readily available on the vast degree they are today. Forgiving oneself, lets out a lot of this pent up anger.

          At the Womens Resource Center and I think I have commented on this in the past, is to take a baseball bat to a mattress or whatever it is and let that negative energy go. I did this and it didn’t quite work for me, I found, at least for me I was going to get something positive out of it.

          So, I put on my running shoes, and I have been did fast pace walking, all the while thinking, you didn’t affect me, nor will you, I am going to be the best I can be. There I go, hurting like hell and saying, I can do it, sweating, struggling, panting to the finish line. What I am getting out of it, myself back, a trimmer fitter me, stamina, and I sleep like a baby.

          The next day I hurt, but whatever it is, I will never let the bastards get me down. All I can say is: “Make my Day.” Tomorrow I am getting my bicycle out and yes I am going to ride it. Each day a little more, all the while building endurance. It’s now or never my friend, if we don’t have our health we have nothing. Don’t let SB steal that too. I have gotten in a rut letting things go and we only sink deeper.

          Rise above it, be the best you can be, that is something that can’t be bought. AndyD, has expressed this so eloquently in his post to you. What matters most is ourselves and our needs, not our wants. Many never realize this. I believe with your character, Lucy, you will prevail, you will look back and shake your head. Your way, is going up, SB’s way is only down, bide your time and you will see. You still have a lot on your plate and I have confidence you can make it. Just one step at a time, remember to breath deeply, cool in, hot out.

          For me, as you have suggested, if not only for 5 minutes.

          Hugs

          1. BTOV/Lucy

            “I think its not only the betrayal but awakening to the realization of the mind control methods they used to manipulate us. This isn’t an easy eye opening experience to accept. When the lies are 99% true hidden 1% come out, it can knock one off their feet. The gaslighting, wow! when the CD tactics are so subtle and disguised”.

            Yes INDEED. That’s when we fully realise just how nasty and insidious they really are. From my experience they are not 99% true a lot of the stories my CDs have told are elaborate and nothing but lies, it’s the slander and malice. They accuse us of the behavior they are guilty of – this is the hardest thing to accept. Then on top of that they pile on the blame by making out to be the victims. Because if they know it gets unacceptable reviews and they are painting us as them, THEN THEY ARE TRULY EVIL AND VILE creatures. They would know first hand what other’s find tragic and menacing are themselves and the fact they’ve spray painted us with with it makes them EVEN WORSE.

  10. Martha Stout

    Whatever your job, you manipulate and bully the people who are under
    your thumb, as often and as outrageously as you can without getting
    fired or held accountable. You do this for its own sake, even
    when it serves no purpose except to give you a thrill. Making people
    jump means you have power-or this is the way you see it-and bullying
    provides you with an adrenaline rush. It is fun.

    1. Joey,

      Good point to watch out for. This is so true….. One of the CDN’s I know would prime the person for a fall. They would converse with the person and then in the conversation the CDN would feed them a line of BS and tell them how stupid they were. At the time I was dumbfounded, I asked the CDN “Why did you do that.” The CDN answered, “Because it was fun.” We know full well they would not like it done to them, so whats up? It is precisely how sick their thinking is, it also sheds light on the CDN’s emotional age in the interaction. Not withstanding they can go into their toddle-time raging two year old mode at anytime just for fun to get their way and cause decension. It’s always about Control…….

    2. I had a former boss like that, it was many, many years ago and prior to me doing any self work so I was also operating with a full deck of ego defense mechanisms. So back them I fully stood up to bullies bosses or not. As it turned out the guy was a serial offender. He pulled exactly the same shit on my predecessor who worked there for 8 years prior to him coming on board. Once he came on the scene she only lasted 5 months and I can see why.

      He would attack and I would counter attack, I stood up for myself. He would triangulate me and the supplies manager often pitting us against each other. In the end when he went full on for the take down I’d documented everything and took stress leave and sent a lengthy memo explaining why to executive management.

      I did not rest on my laurels and he was digging in so I hired the same lawyer my predecessor hired. After 2 months on stress leave she got me a decent settlement – I got a pay out and he ended up getting fired but not straight away. As soon as I left he started victimizing the secretary and the supplies manager. They finally got rid of him. Not before the supplies manager left though.

      I’ve attended many HR workshops over the years and while workplace bullying is often addressed what should be introduced is how to recognise narcissists. But you know what that will never happen because there are just way too many of them in the corporate world. There are way too many of them in the world period.

      1. Good for you, Eudoxia. I wonder if it’s easier taking these clowns on at work or interpersonally? Good subject for discussion, hey?

        1. LisaO

          To be honest Lisa I don’t know which is worse. If it’s at work there is the deep fear that is attached with the possibility of being set up and losing your job it’s highly stressful and adds another dimension to the term Mondayitis. On an interpersonal level you are being torn up by those you love and trust or should I now say loved and trusted (past tense).

          Going back to the professional front, how we deal with it is different. Because we have that professional hat on we have to act in certain ways we probably would not be predisposed to do on the interpersonal level. Our warm compassionate side doesn’t shine so brightly on the professional front. I was involved in the mining industry for many years and I had to deal with tough men doing tough jobs – I’m not talking about workers in field I mean project managers and engineers and God forbid executive management (you should see the amount of them there). I was able to navigate through those shark infested waters okay I learned how to cover my back well from that first experience. Also when in the professional realm there are set protocols that all employees must adhere to – CD are always the first to break the rules and depending on how smart or not they are they can and often do take themselves out particularly if they are lesser narcs. I’ve had 2 do that LOL. Give them enough rope etc.

          They are so fueled by rage they can’t control their impulses and when they are hell bent on making war with you in their twisted desire for malevolent delight they often make serious mistakes and get found out. Some of them are really pathetic and some of them are just plain stupid that it’s a wonder they got a job at all. It’s the NSpath’s you have to watch – they are particularly dangerous, and it’s wise not to take on them on in broad daylight.

          The advice I would give to anybody who has discovered they are working FOR or in close proximity to a NSpath is pull your horns in, do your job perfectly, always let him/her think they have the upper hand, watch your back at all times and find another job ASAP.

          In response to your first question Lisa about what is easier to deal with. Neither is preferable. You have the benefit of emotional non attachment in the work force but that’s it. The only way to deal with any of these guys unless you are under some obligation to do so, is GET THEM OUT OF YOUR LIFE!!!! These piles of festering filth are not worthy of oxygen let alone your life force.

  11. Btov, Andy, Eudoxia, Joey, Lucy– thanks so much for all of your valuable wisdom on this blog. You are true heros, heroines — reaching out to help others in distress While dealing with your own multiplicity of life problems, be it CD related or not.

    You’ve helped make this blog the best resource online for people dealing with manipulative monsters.

    1. Thank you for your kind words LisaO – you too are included on that list. I refer to you guys fondly as the Season Ticket Holders we have all done the hard yards with this filth. Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel looks like an oncoming train when we are doing time processing the residual damage these freaks leave us with.

      I think it takes an extraordinary amount of courage and compassion in order to come out alive. There is a vast amount of stuff coming out now about this insidious curse and I can say for one, that if it wasn’t for all you guys and gals I would definitely NOT be in the place I am in now. When we are in it and coming out of it it is crucial and critical we have support and it makes a huge difference. That difference is ending up somewhere between insanity and massive depression to becoming happier, healthier and developing a much wiser and better rounded character for it and in spite of it.

      Raises a toast to all the Season Ticket Holders -clink- thank you each and every one of you for your invaluable support and honesty over this past year – well nearly anyway. This time last year I was almost ready to walk in front of a bus. Finding this site with you amazing people upped the healing ante considerably. It is a warm and safe shelter during the storm. I am nearly back to my old self again but with a lot of additional wisdom and understanding.

      Having to deal with these dark souls is literally going to hell and back. But it’s a well learned lesson and I for one will be taking no prisoners in future. The minute I spot one it’s BYE BYE.

      CHEERS guys!!!!!!!!!!!

  12. I found this from Dr Elinor Greenberg PhD

    One of the main reasons that people abuse others that they profess to love is that they lack “whole object relations” and “object constancy.” Briefly defined: “Whole object relations is the capacity to see oneself and other people in an integrated and realistic way as having a mix of good and bad qualities, some that you like and others that you dislike. If you have “whole object relations” you can accept that someone is not perfect and still value the person for the good qualities that he or she has. “Object constancy” is the ability to maintain your positive emotional connection to someone that you care about while you are feeling angry, frustrated, disappointed, or hurt by the person. Having “object constancy’ helps you rein in your impulses to hurt someone during a fight. Not having “object constancy” makes people more likely to be willing to emotionally and physically damage their mate.

  13. How exactly to handle one of these narsisstic,histrionic,paranoid cluster B type creaturesI still could not truely advise. The only thing I can say for sure THAT I HAVE TRULY LEARNED is: TO KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT and keep those precious things to your self.
    It is and truely was, I could not deal with the histrionic malice and spite. I still think back as to the best course of action, But all that aggression and hate that I had to deal with(and other like me). I still would find it so difficult. Never a millimetres space or a moments peace did I ever have until I left to do the washing. I did not return for two weeks. When I whent back , I stayed for five minutes to collect some of my things to take with me.

    1. Joey,
      You went to wash clothes and didn’t come back till two weeks later? Brilliant! To have peace – live in peace – is huge.

  14. To all our Kindred Spirits here and welcome home LisaO. I think many times about Puddle, Tori, Elva, Vera, so many others and pray they are well and hope they may stop in, if not just for a brief moment. Hint, Hint, I hope you too, Dr. Simon pop in and let us know how you are. Blessings to you and your family and may your work precede you in enlightening the world.

    I hope you all will watch the following link. I have been fortunate in being able to see this group, Brule, many times. They have played all over the world before Kings and Queens.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jlllL4gzps

    1. BTOV – thank you great way to start the day! I too have a great affiliation with the native American Indians, they are a wise people because they practice the highest form of spirituality.

      LisaO made a comment somewhere about the Law of One and how the new age philosophy has distorted it’s meaning. It has indeed and I agree with Lisa. The American Indians do not share this distortion. They know full well they are one, meaning they are a vital part of the whole – creation itself.

      We are not a part of the Universe we are THE Universe!

  15. Joey, Andy, BOTV, Eudox, LisaO,

    I thank you for your comments, support, thoughtfulness towards me through this very difficult time.
    Last week I think I crashed. I was angry and it made me physically sick. I could not handle the daily problems that come up, because the finality of this ugly divorce has set in and now I have to live with what I’ve agreed to.
    Had I pursued the litigation I would probably not have won on the “irretrievable broken” marriage since 2010, since I stayed married. The dissipation of assets occurred while I was still married, from 2010 to present. Had I not won on the irretrievable broken part I would also not have won any dissipation.
    Anyway, this litigation has already cost me upwards of $60,000, and had I went to trial, appellate court, endless frivolous motions filed by the disbarred attorney SB X husband, I was looking at $100,000 in attorney fees.
    I couldn’t continue with this asset drainer any longer. I cut my loses. My attorney has already sucked me dry to the point it hurts, and I saw no end in site.
    I can financially live with what I’d agreed to, but have to do some replanning, work longer than expected, and living small. I can do it.
    What really irritates me though is that the SB got away with all he did, not paying any retribution for his draining our savings, not spending a day in jail for all the harassment and contempt of court and lying in court documents, hasn’t had to pay for his wrong doings. He got away with it. He worked me, worked the system, drained me of funds, and got away with it. He hasn’t suffered for his actions, but I will. I’m paying the price of his nastiness. I’m upset with the court system, all attorneys involved. I tried to defend myself, do the right thing, pay my bills. and in the end I’m screwed anyway.
    So I will live with it. I’ll forge forward. Dig myself out. But I did the right thing, I know I did. But there is a time when I had to stop the bleeding. The attorneys would have gotten it all – so why fight it?
    I got out with minimal physical ailments – I’ve gained weight but that is easy enough fixable. I was afraid I’d end up with an autoimmune disease with all this chronic stress, and I haven’t.
    So that is what I’m angry about – that he got away with it without feeling the effects, only me.
    On the bright side, if he dies while I’m still working, pension comes back to me at 100%. I’ve got to now work till age of Social Security maxing out, 67-ish. That’s what I’ll have to do now since if I retire now I’ll only get 50% of my pension. Not enough money. Yes, that irritates the hell out of me.
    Also, on the bright side, if I did before I retire, he gets nothing.
    I know, a lot of talk of death here – but that’s what it’s come to.
    I cannot thank you all enough for your wisdom and support.

    1. Lucy,

      It appears he gets only pension, that too only upon retirement.

      Well. Japanese live so long that at the age of 60 they are looking at eternal boredom with small pension. With life expectancy going up across all the peaceful countries, it is probably prudent to work bit longer.

      If you have no habits like smoking, heavy drinking, sedentary lifestyle, etc, and your husband does. Then, statistically speaking you can outlive him by a decade.

      You may want to pick a job that you love. People who love their job, literally work till they their last few years or even death. And, they enjoy good part of their day.

      1. He also gets half of assets, savings 401K I had in my name only (otherwise it would ha e been gone ) and half value of the country house.
        He’s lived hard with bad habits with high blood pressure and I’m healthy. My job is easy enough and pays well with benefits. I try to focus my joy on after hours.
        That’s interesting about the Japanese. I’m sure they rely heavily on family to care for them.
        Life sure room a turn for me.

    2. Lucy

      Last week I took myself out for a small walk. I collect wild food as a Hobby. I to a walk near my home, I have what is called a Kelly Kettle. After my walk I poured some water into my kettle, Light a small fire in the pan,cut some wild Mint from the brook that flows were I had parked. The kettle boiled the water, I sat, drank my minted tea I HAD MADE MYSELF and watched may be 50 dragonflys dance.
      Get OUT AND DO SOMETHING FOR YOU, NO ONE ELSE,JUST YOU. It does not have to cost any thing. I will be picking Crab apples for my mate roy, to make his chutney. Just take a walk and see the world.

      1. Joey
        That sounds lovely. I love to take walks and have not been doing so lately. I especially like the walk with a mission in mind. I like to ride my bike with a destination in mind, preferably invoking food and drink. And I had no idea you can eat crab apples.

  16. Lucy,

    Lower blood pressure is the best revenge. He’s going to pop an artery at some point. Hate to sound gruesome but sometimes being an aggressive SB is its own punishment, in terms of health. He can eat right, keep fit, but die anyway.

  17. My 17 year old daughter is a narcissist. I’ve noticed the traits since she was around ~13 or so. I am not certain what caused it but I did recognize my contribution to her being this way. If I could go back & do things differently I would. But I would also like to point out how the entire environment participates in troublesome things & people need to be aware of them. No matter what kind of limits I tried to put on my daughter – others undermined me. Other adults, friends, neighbors, school faculty, etc. She was more charming & manipulative than me so people naturally overlooked me & did what ever she wanted. She was also a great liar. Sometimes I was even so overwhelmed & swept away by her narratives that I’d get distracted. So dealing with disturbed characters is quite a lot of work. You have to work just as much on yourself – your emotional hot buttons, weakness, tendency to people please & capitulate. Sometimes it seems everyone in the world is against you. That’s why it’s important to enlist the support of other adults you trust. My spouse worked so much he barely figured into the equation & when he was around he would do whatever she wanted out of guilt & the fact that he wanted to avoid me. He wasn’t much of a disciplinarian & acted more like a friend. I can’t tell you how much it hurts when you are not a united front in dealing with your children. You have to put your differences aside if you want to raise a child with good character. They are smart & can see & exploit things you may not even be aware of. I feel like I’ve been to school all over again just from raising this one child. It’s been a hard earned education. I’m still learning. If anyone else has had similar issues I’d like to hear about strategies that were successful. And when I say “successful” I realize it’s hard to measure success in situations like this. It’s often 2 steps forward & 10 steps back. Just when you think it’s okay – you’ll get a rude awakening. Constant vigilance can be exhausting. I’m so glad there are people like Dr. Simon. Reading his material makes me feel much less isolated in this situation. Thanks.

    1. Rachel
      Sorry you’re having to deal with this in your own daughter. We see some parents with these dream children that get along well and think what I Want That! Sounds like no matter what you’ve done it didn’t kick in because you didn’t get the all around support that was needed. Now she’s 17 and I believe the character is already developed.
      Dr. Simon talks about boundaries. I’m glad you’re reading his books. You’ll glean that understanding of what happened, what is happening, what will continue to be, what to expect and how to deal.
      I don’t have any personal experience with a child with these traits, but the X Husband I dealt with and it is a hardship, exhausting, sad, every emotion there is in dealing with it.
      You’ve got to find a way to set boundaries that make your life less obstructive by her behaviors, if possible. Got to look out for you. You won’t change her, but hopefully the way she deals with you personally can change for the better.
      Close family members, coworkers who you deal with on an on-going basis can make you emotionally and physically sick if you can’t get a grip on it.
      Keep posting. Let us know what you’re doing to deal with it.
      Many of us regular posters have a lengthy background in dealing with some horrible people and we’ve all got input that could of help to you.
      What helps me – when I’m feeling down and those recurring bad thoughts are in my head – I say to myself “but it’s not happening right at this moment. Live this moment. It’s good.” Our cluttered heads can surely give us more grief than if we’d live in the moment.

      1. Lucy, Rachel,

        Thanks Lucy, try to live in the moment. I am going through a lot with the CDN sister I care for and I feel so drained to where I am so exhausted there is nothing left, that on top of all the other things to deal with. The CD never stop wanting, they are an ugly gruesome creature that is never satisfied until they have extracted every last ounce of your strength. They get more demanding and self-centered always looking out for themselves and in the end turn on you. The sad part is society encourages and rewards bad behavior. The do-gooders that stick their noses in only enable bad behavior and bail out when the real problems set in.

        Rachel, You may try to find a good therapist and the end utilize their services for yourself. Like Lucy said, their personalities and character is generally formed by this time. From my experience they continue to grow in their arrogance and means of manipulative behavior. They will continue to use you for all they able to extract from you at the same time playing the blame game and guilt tripping.

        From what you have said and for your search to have brought you here, the circumstances must be somewhat severe. I would encourage you to keep posting and read the archives which has a wealth of information.

        1. BTOV blood is not thicker than water. Sometimes we have to put down that hot poker because it’s too dangerous to take a hold of. We’ve been conditioned to believe we have a till death do us part relationship with our family members but as I see it why should we be on the receiving end of the constant abuse.

          I know you are between a rock and a hard place on this and what I said above is easier said than done and I know that’s the case in your situation. But you have to take care of yourself now first and foremost. This is not being selfish it is being self aware and self responsible. It is important that you too get your needs adequately met and CD well – no need to tell you what they do…………………………

          I have to cut this post short as I have to do something particularly unpleasant. The Deranger left the chook pen door open and my dog got a chook, now I have to take it down and get it sorted. I hate doing this shit…………….. no time like the present eh.

    2. Rachel,

      One good thing is you have recognised it before she got older and was able to do maximum damage. I wish I had recognised it sooner in my own daughter. She is NC now and she will stay that way, I will never allow her back into my life again under any circumstances.

      The advice Lucy has given you is sound. You won’t be able to do anything with her. I don’t believe you can undo anything now and reverse anything, it’s pretty much set in stone. The work you need to do is with yourself. The only strategies you need to master is how to deal with them and you need to become a 10 Dan Black Belt in this regard. Because you as her mother, speaking from experience will always be the central point of take down. For some reason they have it right in for us. They feel we have not parented them adequately and as such must suffer because of this. My daughter would continually attempt, at ever available opportunity, to pass her own issues off onto me for resolution. As I would tell her the only way she can resolve her own issues is her own inner work. I was not aware she was CD at the time. They don’t want to do any inner work they just want to make you conform to their version of you. They will attempt to reinvent you each and every day and make you bend to their will. They will use any manner of devious mind twisting scenarios in order to totally subjugate you.

      The one thing you have to realise and keep reminding yourself of is – she is not normal. She will never be normal and as such you can’t treat her as you would a normal human being. Rule 1. Don’t share anything of an intensely personal nature with her – believe me when I say – EVERYTHING WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. It is also important to understand narcissistic supply and injury. They are addicts first and foremost. They see us as appliances there only to provide them with fuel. That fuel is required to reinforce their false construct – their confabulated persona which is a total creation by them and is who they think they are. They need constant validation of their construct via others in order to quell their deep rooted anxiety of (in reality) being nobody. This is fuel to them – our validation of their false construct whether positive or negative is fuel/supply. When we are giving them fuel whether positive or negative they will be satisfied. Failure to produce fuel and they go ballistic – the extreme of such is dependent on the variant of the disorder – this is known as narcissitic injury. Get to know this inside and out as well.

      The thing you have to be careful of is this. If you use these strategies against someone who is not CD you will cause damage to them. It’s pretty important to get an official diagnosis. Although psychiatrists will be reluctant to diagnose this prior to the age of 18. I suggest you do a consult with Dr Simon and get some advice directly from him in this respect.

      But what you need to do and it is really what every human being needs to do is MAN KNOW THYSELF. This is paramount to the evolution of our race. Be the best person you can possible be, not just for yourself but for humanity as a whole. We also need to be able to recognise these wolves in sheep’s clothing as soon as we meet them so we can say nice to meet ya bye! During the transitional phase of this which is how I see it. We meaning us non CD have to start to starve these beasts out of existence. By not giving them fuel and not allowing a continuance of their horrific behavior.

      When dealing with CD it’s essential to address the behavior not the person. You can’t appeal to their emotions or conscience because they don’t have emotions and are without conscience. You will never get anywhere with them using that strategy. Please do yourself a huge favour and purchase Dr Simon’s books and keep them close. You will refer to them often. I would also suggest you listen to some dark minds. Listen to talks by Sam Varknin (Malignant Narcissist) and HD Tudor (NSpath) they will give you glimpses of the devils and how they think.

      For healing and uplifting support and further strategies I encourage you to listen to Lisa A Romano, Meridith Miller and Richard Grannon. These are all life coaches with extensive experience with CD. Keep posting there is a solid support group here each of us can assist you with your various struggles. Stay vigilant and be the best person you can be and may the force be with you!

      She will be using you as a toaster in order to extract fuel. That is truly all they see us as. They don’t see us as unique human beings with our own likes and dislikes and our own opinions. The only that they accept are the things they want to hear. We are after all just mere extensions of them. We have no inherent rights of our own, we are not human beings we are things. And if their things step out of line they must be punished. That is the mindset of the CD. If they fail to totally control you make no mistake they will set out to completely destroy you. This is a promise they make to themselves. And I can guarantee you they will see to it that they will leave no stone un turned, they will stop and nothing, there is no misdeed or no amount of treachery and vindictive spite they will not go to in order to GET YOU. They would physically kill you if they knew they could get away with it. After all a useless appliance to them is useless after all. They would rather smash it to pieces then see it just tossed out. If you are lucky that is the only thing they will do just abandon you if so count your blessings. This will worsen as she gets older. You can count on it. It’s the one thing you can count on. Narcissists hate what they can’t control in this case it will be you.

      Get your hand on every book you can and know as much about them and how they operate, think everything. The most important thing to do is know yourself. Inside and out. Know all your blind spots which she will have already noted. She will know how to trigger you, know yourself better than she does. You can’t control her or what is in her reality. All you can do is know yourself so your reality can’t be distorted in any way. You need to become immune to gaslighting.

      1. Sorry that post got seriously out of order, I had to go downstairs for a bit and came back to it but looks like I ended it in the middle!

      2. Thank you all so much for your replies. They were all very thoughtful and contained very good advice.
        Lucky for me, I have quite a bit of experience in dealing with narcissists. Odd, back then when I was still learning and being continually hurt by the original narcissist, I kept asking why this was happening to me. Well, now I know. I am a few steps ahead of my daughter (the narcissist) because I already know all their tricks. They are quite predictable most of the time.

        I have to go for now. I will post more later. Have errands and chores to finish while I can.

        Thanks again!

        Rachel

  18. BOTV

    Sorry to hear you’re again having troubles with your sister. That chronic stress is really affecting your health, isn’t it? What are you possible outlets for stress, and is there an outlet to get out of that situation? It keeps going you’re going to need someone to care for you. I do believe we reach a point (most times well beyond this point) where we have to say enough already. Something MUST change. Of course, you can only change what is in your control. Maybe you need to scratch down and find your control again and make a change happen. You do matter. When caring for someone I’m sure you can forget that. You don’t owe her the rest of your life of dedication of caretaking. You don’t. Seems like it’s someone else’s turn to take over.

  19. “Their deep rooted anxiety of being nobody.” Eudoxia
    Interesting. Their lives are a bit like a movie or a dream, I think. They fear being nobody’s because they aren’t quite real, strictly speaking. Are they all ego to defend against this sad theatrical edifice of a life?
    I remember listening to Father Malachi Martin once, and he said the spirits who possess people fear the idea that they aren’t real — are insubstantial. Hmmm.

  20. LisaO

    From my understanding of them – their addiction to narcissistic supply is a requirement in order for their very survival. Supply is needed to validate the false construct – that confabulated persona they have established for themselves. They need acknowledgement from others to validate their existence that they need in order to feel real. Failure to supply them with that and – well you’ve been on the receiving end of it! Talk about volcanic eruption = narcissistic rage.

    They murdered their real self because it was flawed and inadequate. They buried their wounded inner child a long time ago and replaced it with a substitute. Everything about them is ego, there is no substance. They are empty shells, devoid of everything other than a fantastical outlook of themselves and their omnipotence, well the grandiose ones anyway. I think the vulnerable/fragile narcs have a far more complex pathology. I’m looking into this a little more now.

    A couple of occasions I have actually witnessed demonic possession and that was something else altogether.

    Lisa I recall you mentioning a site some months ago where they discussed organic portals – where was that? There is a lot more going on in our existence than most people realise.

  21. Hi Eudoxia,

    I feel that a good 35% of the population has pretty strong Narcissistic traits. I agree with you. The 1% is used to define how many pretty hardened psychopaths there are out there.
    The feeling I have about hardened psychopaths is they might feel they lack reality and all of their lives are structured around trying to feel, ‘alive.’ There might be a very real spiritual component to this, as well as neurological, environmental, etc…

    I can’t remember where I first heard of the ‘organic portal’ idea — or that up to 40% of the population lacks a soul, but it’s caught on fire online. It is a dangerous belief with ‘revenge of unintended consequences’ written all over it. It labels people who are emotionally flat or have ‘dead energy’ (on one blog I just looked at) as being irredeemable, without a soul? For goodness sakes, that is toxic.

    Imagine of a belief like that caught on in a big way? Dangerous.

    1. LisaO

      Why is it so dangerous? No less dangerous than the Devil made me do it or there are evil people in the world. CD are the most dangerous people on this planet and look at the scores of them out there. Plus people are entitled to believe anything they want – we have free will. Things are understood differently exoterically and esoterically. I learned a long time ago to question everything – so I do. There are certain people how walk among us that should not be here as far as I am concerned.

      What people need to come to terms with is they can’t control anything outside of themselves. People need to stop trying to control others and respect others for their differences and stop trying to mold everybody into the one pile. If somebody wants to believe in little green men they are perfectly entitled to without having their sanity questioned. When somebody can convince they are perfectly sane because they believe a burning bush spoke to Moses, a bloke called Yahweh made Earth in a week and that dinosaurs didn’t exist but they scoff at the fact that other intelligent life forms more than probably exist in the greater Universe and the fact that UFOs are actually depicted in certain Renaissance art works – then that may very well be the day hell freezes over. You will always get your fair share of disinfo and other tossers out there in the blogosphere which is why I allow my inner guidance and intuition to point me in the direction I need to go.

      Every single person on this planet today is here for a reason. That reason has a higher purpose and it was all made manifest by a higher power. I think that pretty much covers it on many different levels.

  22. The narcissist in my life, wow, can tell me I know nothing about God, that any time I confront them with the truth, I am mean, I am cruel, that I need a psychiatrist for my mental problems, and the reason they see one, is for the same thing-my “mental problems.” I believe though, there is a spiritual answer here, I recently found recovery, and finally set the one boundary every primary care doctor has said, every psychiatrist, every psychologist that I have seen (and every sponsor), to cut off contact.

    That I don’t have God, I would not be alive if I did not. Maybe I have not been as close as I needed to be, when somone questions my faith, questions my belief in God, and then questions my sanity, convincing me I have none of the above, I am not the one who doesn’t get it.

  23. JC

    The first thing a CD will do is question your sanity and accuse you of having mental problems because you are questioning their behavior or not being manipulated well enough. If you question their behavior or don’t fall into line and allow them to control you – you will be a prime target for serious further abuse. Get out, leave if you can and go NO CONTACT.

    Your narc will not change, you can not love it back into good health and you can’t wind back the clock to the golden periods when he was all lovely and you thought you’d met your soul mate. That soul mate doesn’t exixt, he/she never did, it was just a mask. The real him is the nasty, menacing, malicious one that lies beneath the mask. That’s the real deal.

    There will be nothing wrong with you aside from possible CPTSD. I suggest you have a few sessions with a good life coach who has been through narc abuse – try Meridith Miller or Lisa A Romano (google them) – there are any number of them but they are the ones I’d go for if I needed serious immediate sanity reinstatement – Richard Grannon is another one. Get the docs books and read and understand the nature of the beast and make sure you have good support.

    Narcs are an insidious disease on this planet. I for one wish they would all just drop dead – the world would be a better place.

    1. I had a No Contact order in WA, a year anyhow. First adult child to get one. Male jugde the second time. Started all over. In NE, she, after 8 hours, called the Special Victims Unit, told them I was a suicidal drug addict. I told the detective I was nothing of the sort, but also shed lied to them. They called her back and said if it ever happened again, shed be charged with filing a false police report. Another time, she sent a police officer to my door to say, call your mother

      1. And yes, I have done this. Spam folder on email, mail is sent back and any deposits wired to my bank are also being sent back.

      1. Lucy

        How are you doing? I hope your anger is subsiding but that may take a good while, it’s no easy path out of this putrifescence.

        You know what and in all honesty I see us as being blessed and them as cursed. Having been on the receiving end of these guys helps us to evolve into better people with healthier boundaries. I know it has in my case.

        I see these guys as a kind of ticket, a kudo so to speak to a better and more compassionate way of being in the world – battle hardy but tempered by our own suffering. They will live a type of hell in an empty pit for the rest of their miserable lives.

        I want to raise a toast to all my fellow Season Ticket Holders – Cheers guys/gals! You are all winners!

        1. Eudox
          Thank is for asking. I’ve been busy moving. I’m still angry but not raging. As a fellow member of our group once said, indeed is been taped by the SB and then raped again by the system. I’m not yet at peace with the fact the SB will receive half MY pension – after spending every penny of his IRA. HE PAID ZERO consequences for his bad acts. I lost big time and will be laying debt for several years while he reaps what I saved.
          Anyway, I stop myself from talking about too much cause I get so worked up. Not yet at peace with it.

          1. You probably won’t be for some time, you took a big hit. You can’t get shot repeatedly then just dust yourself off and move on. It takes time.
            Moving is probably the best thing you can do – start completely a fresh.

            There is always an upside – he might die in the meantime. He might get attached to another of his kind who in turn murders him LOL. We can all live in hope eh?

            That might sound totally wrong, but I have just had to face the fact that if they all got murdered tomorrow I would be completely ecstatic! I would literally jump for joy. Whilst that may seem overly optimistic, what is certain eventually is they will all reap what they sow so I’ll settle for that :- It’s also fun watching themselves unravel under their own arrogance and hubris because they all give themselves up – they can’t help it being fully pathological. I’m sure SB has got more of his fair share of karmic payback coming.

        2. Ditto’s

          Hugs, to all you great kindred Spirits, you bring joy, happiness and peace. Across the oceans and around the world we can spread good will and understanding, validation and acceptance.
          This blog and all the participants are a part of this divine intervention my friends.

          1. Eudox, AndyD,

            The problem is in the meantime the havoc they create. In our world with the button within the reach of these homicidal maniacs is of detriment to all innocent living creatures and mankind. Its not just destruction of the CDMNSP but the destruction of all the blameless.

            Judgement will come upon those as surely as the sun sets, we are incapable of of dishing out the destruction of which the Spath’s will ultimately receive, if not in this world but the next. We may be included in the destruction they perpetrate in this lifetime, but the beauty of it all is,,,, we retain our soul, they lose theirs.

            This world would be a better place if all the Spaths were devoured up by the earth, but unfortunately that will come at a loss to the innocent. Hold on for the ride and shield your soul, never, ever. let them take that from you. In the end you will win and the Spat’s lose.

      2. Sounds like you know it well. I asked one of the friends I still have contact with in my old home in NE, and asked if she’d pray-not for me, I have my dad, brother, sister, and the rest, my mother does love me, I know she does, in her way-I know what made her this way as well, AA has a way of doing that, I have compassion for that-and for myself too. She convinces me and everyone she knows that I am crazy. She may love me as in she broght me into this world. I think a lot of times now, she loves herself more.

        Turned me against my father-what is sick about that is that if you read the book, Safe People, by Drs. Cloud & Townsend, I guess hearing her words, I can say, he had the qualities of a safe person, ones that I can’t always see in her-certainly most of the time. Hurts to say it feels worse to know I am right.

  24. JC you have taken the right course of action to protect yourself. I’m sorry you have been through this. It is unfortunately not uncommon. It is, however, somewhat reassuring to know we have not been alone in our struggles with the CD.

    There is a need now for you to heal and recover. This isn’t a quick process by any means. It’s important to understand the grief process because it actually applies to narc abuse victims/survivors/targets particularly during the NC phase which in reality needs to be maintained at all times until you are fully healed. While it’s a good idea to keep up NC eternally sometimes we may run into our former tormentors. Only when we are fully healed will we be equipped to deal with them and not before.

    I get the distinct impression from your posts you are quite a strong person. You seem to be able to stand up for yourself and this is good. You have an advantage of being young so you have learned a very painful but valuable lesson early in life, this will hold you in good stead. For me personally and probably many others, familial abuse and betrayal is the worst type and the hardest to recover from. I don’t mean to detract from the victims of spouse abuse in any way – this can be considered in the same vein as familial abuse particularly if you were married to one and have children.

    What I would encourage you to do at this point, is fully understand the grief process because it is unavoidable. It is the same as grieving over the death of a loved one it is just slightly different in respect that the person is not physically dead but we have to come to the realisation that that person did not exist in the first place. What we thought was the real person was just a mask then when that mask came off we saw what was underneath. It is not really much different than the police turning up to your door to notify you someone has died. Or getting that phone call. When we realise that person we loved does not really exist is just as big a shock.

    Please take care of yourself and make every effort to understand their condition and the grief process. Also be aware that when vulnerable you are like a beacon to these types. They will be attracted to you like moths to a flame. Guard against do gooders and those who would wish to get to know you much quicker than what would be considered normal. It is also wise to really know yourself. Take this opportunity as a journey of self discovery. That way you will be able to understand your own weaknesses and blind spots that allow predators to take advantage of you.

    Only speak to people who are very familiar and who understand narcissistic abuse less you put yourself at risk of further emotional injury. Listen to the life coaches they will help you through this transition. We have an excellent support group here as well. You will receive no end of good quality support. There is also a wealth of knowledge that can be found in the archives – do check out other earlier articles you will benefit from doing so.

    Take every care for yourself JC and let your spirit guide you.

    1. The other thing to note as I read this entry, is how since I was a kid, I mean a teen/preteen, I finally refuse to go to church, because I was listening to everyone ask me, “are you taking care of your mother?” When she was using me as a confidant, yeah, I buckled under and said I wasn’t going anymore. And then when I was sixteen, I made one of those 16 year old comments as she goes off to Mass daily, while, you know., “Say hi to God.” and she replied, “wouldn’t want t shock him.” I think also what hurt was the most recent, “You know nothing of God.” And the screaming, it is finally too much.

      My spirit guide, my sister turned me onto. And I love it, the book of Healing Runes. 🙂

      1. JC here is a key. When CD say things to us like “you know nothing of God” and other such accusations that are totally not within your own nature and we know this – it is actually them confessing about what they are. You see they project a good deal of the time. They project their own vile natures onto others it’s how they deal with what they are – they are moral cowards.

        If you re-trace your steps and go backward and do some recapitulation you will notice many such instances. In those instances she is telling you what she is. They can’t help it they are fully pathological.

        1. JC,

          Unfortunately, the CD know what they are doing and it is a calculated attack against you. Eudox, is right, the CD is project her toxic waste onto you and defining you into who she is. Resist, resist, resist. God is in your heart and soul and he is everything to everybody who accepts him.

          There is know religion who has a corner and owns God. I meditate each morning with God, you can do it anywhere. It sounds like the CDN in your life is your mother. Mothers can do irreversible damage to their child, it is your choice to rise above her and not accept this damaging manipulation.

          I hope Joey, chimes in, he has had immense torment by his mother and I am sure he is willing to tell you how he freed himself from their grasp.

          I encourage to stay for awhile and talk about what you are dealing with. You will find answers and validation from all the posters here. Read the archives and encourage you to read Dr. Simons books and watch the links to other sites and professionals who speak on the topic.

          You cannot change your mother, however, you can work on changing yourself, setting firm boundaries and work on finding your authentic self like we all have.

          Be well and God bless you.

        2. OMG that is so true! If you listen to nothing else, listen to this. The CD person always always accuses you of what they, themselves, are guilty of either doing, or thinking about doing.
          It’s so bizarre, it seems to come out of nowhere. It’s like a child who walks up to her mom and says “I didn’t put the cat in the dryer.” They are trying to soothe themselves with primitive defense mechanisms (sorry to use that term).
          See, the problem I’ve noticed with narcissists in particular is that because of their inability to empathize or view things from any other point of view than their own, they can’t see themselves realistically either. Therefore, they have no clue how ridiculous or transparent they are to the more observant among us. They are very predictable after awhile. They always always always take the least noble route in any situation. They are almost allergic to hard work. IF you had to bet the farm on anything, you can pretty much bet that the CD person in your life won’t come thru or do what’s needed if it’s expected or if they feel obligated. Most of us feel the pressure to do certain things, even when we don’t feel like it. Things like get up and go to work, take care of our children, pay our bills, etc. These are seen as obligations to narcissists and they will work very very hard to avoid being accountable or responsible. They work harder to avoid work than they would if they would just do the work. The last thing in the world they want is for anyone to depend on them but they would gladly accept an award for being “most dependable”. It’s madness but eventually you realize that what applies to most normal people in the world is the very opposite to most narcissists.

      2. I did as you suggested, I said the prayer for my spirit guide. Then I asked for the name. Primary is Hope. Secondary is Brian. The meaning of Brain is the other part I love. Thank you!

  25. Hi,

    This is insidious-I see what you mean, now that I read over the replies, and your posts. The CDN yes, is my mother.

    My whole life has also always been about her, but I know that one of her sisters is the same way-I tried to tell her something once, “Ok, I can see how ‘anxious’ you are. Tranlation of the same old same old.

    The love you learn about from the CDN is about conditions, and about love of self.

    Being pawned off on doctors, counselors, therapists, and because she wasn’t able to handle the nurturing part o being a parent. I owe my life to those who were (friend in junior high).

    The wound I can’t forget, that “I didn’t KNOW” as the response, was when I was unconscious in the ICU from complications from nutrition support (sodium over-corrected), tells my doctors that I have a thought disorder (translation is hallucinations and delusions) and that I’d just “taken too many painkillers,” when in fact, no one had said to stop the sodium bicarb, which was SO high, that I had a massive brain bleed/brain swelling, they gave me an antipsychotic, the response was they were totally disgusted, and discharged me with no follow-up to get PT or any help at all during the recovery time, it took a year and a half to recover from that, and the only thing was, “No pain pills,” and absolutely zero compassion from even my providers as a result-much due to my own issues, but when the family response is expected as 200% and has to be 100% because they have to know?

    The antipsychotics mess you up cognitively, bad. The severity of the brain swelling/bleeding has you out to lunch mentally. The “I didn’t know” had me recovering at home, re-learning to walk, etc, all of it, including showering, etc, alone.

    What I learned as a result is it was the input she’s given that is what I don’t need. Absolutely no way am I going to be put through it again.

    1. JC,

      My heart goes out to you. you have a lot going on. It appears you have been in this sick triangulation of the CDN for quite sometime and are just beginning to find answers and see a light. It takes for many of us a lot of work to undo the evil twisted mind screwing hell hole we have broken free from. The journey out of the rabbit hole can be very difficult but rewarding for at the end you will find freedom and light.

      JC, I encourage you to keep posting and unload your story, it will be very cathartic and when ones eyes begin to open and see the truth you can free yourself from the bondage these one chain us with.

      From what you say, I assume you are a male, if I may ask are you an only child and how old are you. I ask just so we may get to know you better and I encourage you to ask questions likewise. There is hope for you to regain yourself, your freedom, your authentic self and vomit out all the lies you have been fed.

      It is not an easy path by any means, however, on this site you will have input from many who truly understand you and will try to assist in anyway possible for you see the truth and set yourself free.

      It is sad that we encounter these experiences in our families, yes, our very parents will gang up with other CDN to manipulate and tear us down, the ultimate goal to destroy us. In order to set ourselves free we must let go of them, in the positive sense throw them out of your life, let go of them, but never, ever, delude yourself they have good intentions involving you.

      Once you get away and begin the healing process you will become stronger and you will understand the inner workings of what has happened to you. Let go of it all and find your hope and above all Brian. I welcome you to stay and grow, grasp onto all the resources and camaraderie you will find on this blog. Keep read and educating yourself and eventually the fog will dissipate.

      Take care JC and be strong, never let go of God, out of all this you can become a stronger, more attuned and better person than you ever imagined. Look for the good and use it to become the best you can be and help another who is entangled in the web of deceit the CDMNSP cause. We rise up when we empower ourselves, resist and take back our power. We can only be responsible for ourselves, we can change ourselves, take hold of this opportunity and never go back. If need be go No Contact.

      Blessings and God be with you.

  26. Gone is the need to constantly validate myself, “does that make sense?” and it is also the 100%, my life just got a whole lot better.

  27. Also, what did not help was this had been going on since I was in diapers, before really, and at school, the bullies were relentless, my sister usually would step in and um, you know, but it was getting everything made fun of, as well as the bully in my home. They noticed the mother issues first, my dad’s drinking, my sister’s adoption, I was stupid/retarded (starting 1st grade at 5?), the way I walked, talked, ran, too short, too fat, too tall, too skinny. There was other stuff even worse, but I made the mistake of mentioning it to my mother (before cutting it off), and her response was telling, “If I had known, I would have had them all held accountable.” Then it was losing an old photo, years ago. And then it was, “I will give you another one when I am dead.” Response was telling, that was the last straw. No landline number, my mobile was changed, and the place I live at, sends back what is being sent to me. But turning me against my father, who is every bit the safe person (per the Cloud & Townsend book), that she is not. That it is over, is a huge relief.

  28. Did I turn to drugs with this, yes. And in many ways, it did me a favor, the 4th Step caused me to say, “um, wait a minute” and realize my sponsors, doctors, psychologists all of them were right-pain management included, “Cut this off, and you won’t need me.”

    During the divorce when I was 14, from issues with her back, my mother had gotten addicted to an opiate, it happens, God knows, I am no exception, until I realized that makes chronic nerve pain worse. But the other thing is that as a kid, I remember that she had began taking mine following knee surgery. I got rid of them and she came unglued.

    When I commented more recently, “Um, this does not make me a bad person, it makes me fallible.” Her comment was, “Oh, at least I DID something about it,” and the only thing she did is all she is capable of, that is stopping the “drugs”. There is a requirement of rigorous honesty, amends, and a whole lot more in sobriety, clean is one thing, sober is another. Getting the basic concept that you are powerless, and of a Higher Power is required for anyone to be able to stay sober. This is healthy boundaries, with the narc (only one boundary to set), both here, and in other areas of your life.

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