Narcissistic Irreverence Begets Haughtiness

Narcissistic Irreverence

Narcissistic Irreverence leads to haughtiness. Narcissists are too enamored of themselves to revere anything or anyone else. I’ve written recently on reverence and its role in character formation. (See: Sound Character Requires Reverence.) And I emphasized how reverence impacts how we relate. A reverent attitude inspires us to relate to all people and things in constructive ways.

Irreverent folks find no awe or wonder in the world around them. They’re far too impressed with themselves for that. They bask in their talents and abilities. Moreover, they harbor no gratitude toward the source of their gifts. They neither recognize nor experience awe of a “higher power.” So, they get to thinking too much of themselves. Narcissistic irreverence breeds the haughtiness that characterizes the disturbed character.

The Roots of Disdain

Unchecked, narcissistic irreverence inevitably leads to disdain. The haughty among us see those not like them as weak and inferior. The reverent soul seeks to elevate anyone or anything encountered. But the irreverent individual seeks only the elevation of self. Narcissistic irreverence is ultimately about placing oneself ahead of and above. As I’ve mentioned in countless workshops, it’s always about position. Passive narcissists already envision themselves as on top. Moreover, they feel entitled to be there. Active, or aggressive narcissists constantly jockey for position of advantage. (See also:  Understanding The Aggressive Personalities.) They ruthlessly pursue power and dominance over others.

Narcissists have a hard time hiding their disdain. (See also: The Narcissist’s Disdain.) They lack the kind of healthy shame that comes with reverence and empathy. So, it doesn’t unnerve them to show their disrespect. They mock and belittle with ease. They love to taunt. These things come easily because of their grandiose self-image. And that grandiosity leaves no room in the heart for reverence.

All my books explore these issues and their roots during character development.

Reverence and Relationships

Toxic relationships are born of narcissistic irreverence. One simply can’t love what what can’t first appreciate. I’ll be saying more about this in the coming weeks. And I’ll explain why it’s often difficult to spot narcissistic irreverence early on in relationships.

Character Matters

Character Matters will air live Sunday at 7 pm Eastern Time. Call in at (501) 258-8326) to join the conversation.

107 thoughts on “Narcissistic Irreverence Begets Haughtiness

  1. Those who are most difficult to revere, like the character disordered, may be part of a bigger and unfolding plan of the universe, or God.

    In the greater scheme of things we can stand up to abusers while recognizing that like the mosquito, they have something to offer creation. They test our wits but also our hearts. The trixter type may bootstrap evolution of cognition and emotion.

    Being the victim of deep manipulation creates the opportunity to participate in the exercise of retaining a reverent world view while simultaneously developing a more sophisticated theory of mind.

    1. Hi Lisa. Your reply is unique and I’m in general agreement, however I am also aware of the extreme damage these folks can do to the innocent, especially when the trauma begins at conception and continues on, throughout. It’s ghoulish damage to say the least. But yes … once a great enough percentage of the population suffers at that level, it will teach them, and it will lead to a more balanced society. What would be best is if humanity would learn this lesson to the point of never, ever allowing the dismantling of the checks-and-balances that were put in place throughout various governments and institutions, for it is the checks-and-balances that keep the two extremes of human behavior, well, in check.

    2. I’m sorry Lisa, but I cannot agree to the fact that abusive and violent people are to be justified because “perhaps” they are part of God’s plan. First of all we don’t know that. Perhaps they are, perhaps they are not. What if they’re not, and God has nothing to do with the fact that they got to be like that? So, we cannot base our understanding of the issue on concepts like “God’s plan” which would be impossible for us to know anyway. Furthermore, a narcissistic individual has nothing to do with a mosquito. They are just sick people that need to heel. And by the way, even in the case of the mosquito we have created a wide range of mosquito repellents to protect ourselves. We don’t passively accept their bites assuming they are part of God’s plan. Finally, if you take a look at nature, when something is out of balance the result is destruction. But just because nature has the ability to tolerate destruction and can find a new balance does not mean that evil was “meant to be”. That kind of justification of evil “a posteriori” is a mental trap.

      1. Hi Maria, I would just remark that unfortunately they are not ‘sick’ and they don’t ‘heal’. That is one unique problem about this disorder. Weather they are socialized to be like this or there is some genetic factors, it tends to be resistant to human intervention. They don’t seek and appreciate ‘healing’, and mostly love to be predators. But there is one possibility. No one is beyond the power of God to change them. The almighty God takes a pile of dead bones, a spiritually blind person and makes them spiritually alive. He makes them see. I think and believe that when the Holy Spirit touches the person they will genuinely repent to God. Their offence, sin, is primarily and first to God. And God is well able to transform them, and does so with sinners every day. The blood of Christ cleanses all sin in the repentant heart.

        1. Monika,

          I agree with you on this. I personally know two people who were severely CDN, one had a pure disregard for any human life. They both described their com to Jesus moment. Dr. Simon writes about this in his book titled: The Judas Syndrome.

          I have heard many testimonies of people who were drug addicted and found Christ, their transformations are amazing. Other CDN will never acquiesce and submit to what is an act of humility at any cost. The simplicity of admitting they need help and yielding to a higher power is something their false self will not permit at any cost.
          Thank you for you post.

          1. I don’t know if this is an exact match, but given the transformation from character disorder to not, or at least from irreverent to reverent, by way of finding God, this video might interest you(link below). It is an NDE account, and a truly beautiful story of change.

    3. LisaO – I’ve often wondered:
      What is the purpose of a mosquito?
      To irritate? To spread disease?
      Why would God create such a creature?
      If there is a redeeming ‘purpose’ for a mosquito, please let me know, I’ve been wondering about their purpose for decades.

      1. Fish food everything in creation has a purpose and as Lisa says even narcs……….strange type of vestigiality going on there.

        Their debased nature due to certain parts of their brains being defective or atrophied are actually supporting the evolution of the species. Narcs are by their own hand, ensuring their victims evolve themselves so as become impervious and immune to their abuse. Well smart ones anyway.

        A new breed of human is arising that has actually been here for ages just not identified. It now has been and this new breed of human will provide the antibodies to rid the planet of the narc virus. It’s a process of natural selection. God (whatever God is for you or isn’t) creates creation in self correcting perfection :-

        1. Eudoxia – I agree with your statement “Narcs are by their own hand, ensuring their victims evolve” as I have grown in Love, Forgiveness and Compassion by having had a narc in my life … not only for them, but for others, as well as myself.
          It is only by the Grace of God that I have come to know Jesus, and only through Jesus and the Spirit He gave us that I can extend Jesus’ Unconditional Love to others. It has not been an easy path. Yet as I distance myself from the narc, I am learning to appreciate the lessons in Unconditional Love that Jesus has taught me through them, and yes, I am much stronger, wiser, and far more Compassionate and better ‘Lover’ now than ever.
          And I distance myself from them not out of fear or anger, but because I realize that if I don’t, they will eventually kill me, so it is out of Love for myself and Love of God … because I am here, not only to share God’s Love with others, but to receive Love as well, and now that I have learned to Love even the most selfish, vile, and cruel, I am ready to learn to receive Love.
          Bottom line: Narcs operate out of fear. God’s Children operate out of Love. And the two cannot co-exist in ‘Heaven’, as Light and Darkness cannot co-exist in each other’s presence, as Light dispels Darkness.

      2. Mosquitoes have very significant purpose. They are constant reminder that evil exists. And, it kills. 😀

  2. This article perfectly describes the X CDN husband. He didn’t appreciate beauty, nature, his surroundings. He was messy and disorganized and didn’t seem to mind a bit about having filthy surroundings. I wouldn’t go anywhere with him in his car because it was like sitting in a garbage can.
    Now without me behind him picking up I can only imagine what his home looks like

  3. And they get worse with age, Lucy! His car will be a rolling landfill, for sure!

    There’s a show on either Netflix or YouTube called, “the Nightmare Neighbor Next Door,” filmed in the U.K. One of the nightmare families are all morbidly obese. Obesity is often the result of depression, poverty, and a number of other issues but not in this case. It’s part of their extreme self indulgence.

    They are unbelievably narcissistic and irreverent, loud, obnoxious, argumentative and lazy. Their approach to food is irreverent. Lots of footage of the family splayed out on couches stuffing their faces with pizza, fighting, arguing with their mouths full.

    I shudder to think where this family will be in another ten years and how many people they will make utterly miserable.

  4. PM and Maria,

    I am sorry for the confusion. When I say that the manipulative types are part of meta-phenomenon, God’s plan, evolutionary process, (we all have different frames of reference) I didn’t get as detailed as I wanted to.

    Let’s take the psychopath, for example. I am not suggesting our task is to love and or accept him. What I am saying is that the act of detection of this type and our response, be it out maneuvering them or avoiding them is an intelligence operation, essentially. Detection of deception — not taking things at face value, tests us mentally. We have to push our mental processes, be more mentally agile.

    Ther may be an epigenetic process going on here for all I know. But that aside, there is something going on here cognitively and emotionally that intrigues me.

    Having had an experience with a psychopath, I went through a phase of deep suspicion. It started to alter my world view, my perception of people in general. In some ways I disintegrated into a bit of paranoia.

    At some point I realized the challenge was to reintegrate into a higher state of awareness. I had to retain a little healthy suspicion and initial skepticism of strangers while maintaining an open and friendly attitude.

    This was the challenge, the task — to be damaged, to fall on the floor, to be smashed to pieces…and then to pull back together, get on my feet, learn how to walk again, then run…..and then fly — metaphorically speaking.

    1. LisaO
      So eloquently describes the process of falling (crushed) and trying to live on with the new perspective. It is life altering.

  5. Maria,

    A few more points here. The psychopath isn’t necessarily sick. He is disordered. He or she is an inter species predator. Their types are accumulating because there are not enough major wars for them to fight. Their callous insensitivity, so well adapted for stealth and overt acts of torment and violence have no outlet except within their own society.

    Now that we know more about them, young women can choose, for example to not reward the ‘bad boy’ by dating him or settling down with him. Seeing as war is a primitive way of relating to other groups, they are not needed in great numbers anyway. We can certainly alter the gene pool through a battle of the cradle.

    Avoidance, being repulsed by the flamboyant amusing brave types who we now know might be predators could have a very positive effect.

    As for now, the pain we have suffered from them–we have to do something positive with that if possible.

    I am all for vanquishing them peacefully or with guile, if possible, for now. It is the overcoming of a tremendous obstacle that bootstraps us towards a higher level of understanding.

    1. LisaO I agree, sick was not a good word choice. What I think is they are not evolved enough or that they have possibly de-volned (they have succumbed to their animal instincts). Fear and the need to dominate others as a means to survive rules their thinking and actions. They have failed to become fully conscious and rise to a more humane understanding of the world, use reason or discover morals. Yet I ask myself if this could be prevented if they would somehow get educated and trained in empathy and moral values from a very early age. Could this stop them from expressing their aggressive genes later on? I haven’t come to a definitive conclusion yet.

      1. Maria, many of them seem to be very externally referenced, all ego and intellect without any real heart. Their self image is really weird. Psychopaths are worse because they are more extreme, more fearless and callous, IMHO. Plus, they are realllyyy covert when they want to be.

        As far as effects of nurture versus nature on a psychopathic type, if you scroll through Dr.Simon’s articles you will find he addresses this in a really level headed way! It is all a bit confusing. Thanks so much for your input, Maria.

  6. I’m in the process of divorcing a very covert, impression management, calculating con artist, who actually appears to be the opposite of the clear and obvious character disturbed. He is “remorseful and humble sinner” who uses what appears to be acknowledgement of his actions (except the deviant and intentional part) and his “desire” to change to manipulate everyone around him, ESPECIALLY in the church and with “Christian” counselors who were also conned.

    We have to be careful and remember that anyone, including the experts can be duped. The only reason I’m educating myself, on people like this, is I was seeking answers and help, and finally came across information that helped explain what was actually happening. Grooming builds trust and happens over time. If it’s easy for an adult to get duped, how much more a child. Our culture makes it easy for perpetrators to thrive and continue abusing. It is still a very small percent of people who even have adequate information regarding this. We have to believe that the character disturbed person can be ANYONE…regardless of labels and titles, and even appearances.

    What I’ve learned is you can’t put a CD in a box or stereotype them. They can be slobs and they can be germaphobics, or in between. They can look nice and they can look like jerks. They can be polite and quiet and they can be abrupt and obnoxious, young, old, any race, or gender. We can’t underestimate who can qualify. I’m still experiencing the impact this has had on me. My life looks like a mess, I’m scattered, disorganized, hypervigelant, forgetful and overwhelmed ALL the time. I wasn’t always this way…so please be careful to not misjudge, because like CD’s, there are no limits or boundaries to who a victim can be.

  7. Sparrow,

    Am so sorry you are going through such a hard time. It’s really traumatic. Just out of curiosity, did your husband display genuine reverence, that you could see, ever about anything? And did he ever give himself away by displaying haughtiness, privately?

    The monster who targeted me was also extremely covert, ‘shy’, humble and just soooo kind! When he displayed haughtiness, arrogance and callous disregard, I would just think, “Hmmm, weird…how out of character!” Now, I realize that his mask slipped a few times while he was grooming me…best friending me.

    He was all caring concern and deeply interested in everything, including me. It would have been hard for me to dream him up. And the discard was dreamlike too, but not in a good way. This lovely ‘shy’ man, who tried so hard, was so mature, revealed his real self; a sadistic ‘mean girl’ with sensibilities more fitting for a high school cafeteria.

    What an act! And when I say ,”mean girl” I mean it. I hate to sound sexist, but there was something in his nature that was cruel in a feminine way. Don’t know why that is…perhaps it is because they share with women heightened intuition, just misuse it.

    So yes, agree with you that they aren’t all the same and some provide fewer clues than others.

    I hope you feel better soon.

  8. Being involved with CD have tragic consequences both on life and our attitudes to ourselves. However, once we remove ourselves from their lives and if we commit to healing post abuse we will not only survive but thrive.

    Due to the extensive amount of gaslighting and covert if not downright overt manipulation that at times causes us to sacrifice pieces of ourselves for our own survival it’s vital to pick up those missing pieces post abuse. Narc abuse can suck the life clean out of us so it’s vital to find ourselves again and put ourselves back together. Knowing what we are dealing with helps exponentially.

    Ross Rosenberg wrote a book called Human Magnet I haven’t read it, Rosenberg doesn’t resonate with me – not saying he’s wrong just saying I don’t gel with him but I understand the concept behind it and agree. Some people are narc magnets and I became one as well. However, comes a time we have to stop blaming the narcissist and take a good look at why we are narc magnets in the first place.

    They are actually a springboard for us to evolve to a higher state of being. Because what the narcissist does is become a mirror for all that is unhealed in us. If we use our experience with narcissists wisely we will use them as a direct guide to our own internal states. Because they shine a huge spotlight on all our own unhealed parts.

    What most people do is run from their pain and they will do absolutely everything to avoid it. This is the worst thing anybody can do because it amounts to self abuse. When I was first out of Narcland I was like a cat on a hot tin roof constantly triggered by seemingly inoccuous people and situations. We are in a fully raw and wounded state at that stage and many of have severe cases of CPTSD.

    Because we are literally crawling with narc fleas it’s a perfect time to uplevel those wounds that are now festering. It is our own unhealed parts that the narcissist uses in order to manipulate us. Those particular aspects of us are attacked by the narc again and again and again. However, once we track down and uplevel those false beliefs we have formed about ourselves that we have held in our subconscious all our lives we will be rid of narcs forever.

    Because I think that is their exact and precise purpose. I totally agree with you Lisa that narcissists play a part in the unfolding of and evolving of creation. Everything is in divine and perfect order. I feel blessed to have had them show up in my life for that one purpose. They have shown me all the unhealed aspects of myself I am now upleveling.

    I’ve found some really nasty false beliefs I’ve held onto unconsciously for most of my life. The first part of my journey “back to self” only peeled back part of the layer. It was a good deal of it but there were other tricky little suckers lurking in the background that are not so easy to get at and unearth. What made them easy to get at? Narcs!

    Knowing how to recognise and detect a narc is one thing. Having strategies in place in order to deflect them is necessary but it’s still not enough on it’s own. If we want to be a fool proof unit so as not to attract them in the first place – that’s CRITICAL!

  9. Ah Eudoxia,

    You, Btov, Lucy, Kat, and Joey always offer so much to reflect on after reading Dr.Simon’s post.

    And I agree that they tend to hone in on good people who have been wounded badly. If there is a way we can address those injuries there might be less of a chance that we will be targeted.

    This is different than feeling responsible for some clown’s psycho moves on us though. We aren’t to blame, but there are precautions we can take, like banging pots and pans on a forest trail to scare bears., or to blend in to our surroundings to disappear, like a squid.

    And I can only speak for myself here but had I not had so many disturbed bonding issues of my own and other life difficulties, had I been able to somehow deal with them, I think I still could have been targeted. But.. he wouldn’t have been so indispensable to me and I would have drilled into him on little things that popped up. I wouldn’t have withheld criticism, the way I did.

    Overt narcissists are easy to spot but sometimes misinterpreted by us when we are young because we think they are “cool guys” and feel lucky for their attention. Young women fight over them! A very covert self effacing humble type though? Shudder!. If they do it well? Much more difficult.

    Dr. Simon’s articles are invaluable in describing what to watch out for.

    1. Lisa

      “And I agree that they tend to hone in on good people who have been wounded badly. If there is a way we can address those injuries there might be less of a chance that we will be targeted”.

      There is zero chance we will be targeted. Narcs will spend no more then 10 mins in a conversation with us and run to an easier target. I’m living proof of it as are my fellow Thrivers.

      What I have learned Lisa is narcs can only attack to us through our own unprocessed wounds. It is specifically how they manipulate and abuse us. Through our own unresolved traumas and false beliefs we are largely unconscious of.

      What NARP does is facilitate access to these wounds and uplevel them. Gone……….and I can tell you know it all goes back to our family of origin (FOO). The narcs were just a symptom of our own unhealed state. This is why I am doing it and going to continue with it. I’m in a totally different condition to what I was 5 months ago prior to signing up for it.

      I’ve included a talk by Dr Bessel Van der Kolk one of the world’s leading trauma therepists. He is describing EMDR but it is this process of retrieving hidden trauma from our subconscious and bringing it into our prefrontal cortex for processing that NARP also facilitates. It’s powerful stuff.

      I know I harp on about this quite a bit but I am a person who is totally committed to eradicating narc abuse. It simply has to stop and as they won’t stop it – it’s up to us to do so.

      Sending you a big hugg! Now I’m off to take the cat to the vet he’s out of sorts and I am bamboozled as to what’s wrong. Wish him healing vibes will you :-

      1. Eudoxia,

        Sending you a hug too! And thanks for all the links! As far as attracting narcissists goes. I have never attracted them — just a psychopath.

        Somebody told me once that because I had a sense of humour, I scared some men. And narcissists would be very sensitive to the threat of humiliation, right?

        The thing is I don’t joke around at someone else’s expense ever. My friend told me that didn’t matter, that some men are guarded around me, just because the potential is there.

        So, without knowing it, I had a built in protection mechanism. Weird. None of the cool bad boys ever wanted to have anything to do with me! LOL.

        Now psychopaths are entirely different, in this regard. I don’t think anything scares or embarrasses them. So, it was a psychopath who targeted me. Lucky me! The worst of the worst. Thank God it only lasted two years.

        But I definitely feel that self work and having an excellent life coach helped so much. They made me realize I had value and didn’t deserve to be treated like that!

        Nobody deserves that. Nobody. We all have to figure out what parts of us are unhealed because it is through those wounds that they hook us. Your suggestions are excellent.

        1. Lisa

          The men I have attracted in my life may not have necessarily been narcs either except the last one but he had brain damage prefrontal cortex his olfactory was gone and just below that is the limbic system…………..psuedopsychopathy – enough about him however. He’s done and dusted. He was the first casualty of my upleveling.

          The pattern of men I’ve attracted to me did mirror my father not on looks or persona but this one shining, GLEAMING reality. They all betrayed me and none of them (with the exception of my son’s father) really had my back.

          My father would always side with the school on any matters regarding me. One of his favorite sayings to me was “your mouth is going to get you into trouble one day” – that ran for most of my life. Why – because I stood up for myself and wouldn’t allow myself to be bullied by anybody including him actually.

          I would always speak my truth. For a kid and a teen that’s seen as somewhat revolutionary and dissident. Kids should be seen and not heart etc. etc. etc. I left home at 17 could not wait to get the f&&^ out of there due to him. I just got fed up with rules and just wanted to be my own person so I did.

          I’m not codependent and can not tolerate controlling, insecure let alone abusive men. What bought me unstuck a couple of times with narcs in particular who showed up in my own family once we were thrown into a tight close knit unit again was my own empathy and need to fix and correct things.

          This happened in another relationship I was in for 3 years as well but he probably had more unhealthy levels of narcissism not full blown NPD and I was convinced I could fix him. Raw deal that one………

          I’m happy to say I’ve moved past that now. If somebody is broken I’m not going anywhere near them let alone trying to fix them. That’s a fools game. I’ve sealed a lot of gaps within myself that could allow further intrusion by anybody into my empathic state and milk it so to speak.

          I am super sensitive to people’s energy again now and just KNOW if someone is off and I will just not have them in my space for too long. So I’m cruising along just fine these days yayyyyyy :-

          Manipulative and seriously emotionally immature individuals get nowhere to camp in my space now :-

    2. Lisa, when you say the overts are the cool guys – that’s exactly what attracted me to the EX. I felt lucky to have him at first, and felt I wasn’t good enough for him. He was everything I wasn’t and wanted to be – as in cool and popular. Now I know I valued the wrong things.
      It seems most people have some unhealed trauma that goes unresolved, we all have our weaknesses but what I am trying to figure out is which unresolved traumas most attract the NARCs. After divorcing my EX, I met a friend who later I discovered was also a NARC. After I realized just how manipulative she was and how much she lied I was done with our friendship. I didn’t put 2 and 2 together for quite a while but she always made me feel bad about myself, which I have discovered is a real red flag. I think if you have an abusive background as a child, from my experience anyways, you do not recognize abuse so readily. Others can see it plainly, but when you can’t, it is such a vulnerability that can be exploited by the users among us. I have tried forever to heal my rejection issues from my family of origin, but that problem is so resistant I haven’t make much progress, that and my temperament type which plays right into it makes its a very stubborn problem for me. I have learned enough about NARCS and about abusive people in general to be better at spotting the red flags so I am not so vulnerable.

  10. For what it’s worth I never realized how toxic my past behavior was until I was in a toxic relationship with someone way more damaged. I had to go through all the phases of trying, reasoning & realizing the truth – which was my father was a narcissist (not extreme but still) & a lot of the behavior I thought was “normal” was hurtful. I sometimes wonder if I would have ever become as self aware had I not been to Hell & back. Glad I was able to glean something positive from the whole ordeal.

      1. I don’t think consciously he did but looking back on it – the ex bf held many of the same misogynistic beliefs as my father. Things are always so clear in hindsight.

  11. They neither recognize nor experience awe of a “higher power.” So, they get to thinking too much of themselves.

    They struggle to reconcile their own grandiose ideas of themselves with an inability to succeed at work or in relationships. The only explanation, is that others are out to sabotage them.

    Add paranoia and envy and a psychosis and some very bad things happen

    1. Joey as far as it goes they are all envious, paranoid and psychotic. Having a completely confabulated persona is not neurosis it’s psychosis.

      None of who they represent themselves to be is real. We see what is real when the mask slips and what they are at their core which in no way resembles what they portray to others – none of it.

      I’d rather a schizophrenic around me than a narc any day.

      1. Joey, Eudox,

        The following is written my Sam Vacknin, I agree with his position on psychosis and being psychotic. From my experience the majority of the time even the most malignant narcissist may appear psychotic but in reality are not. They are fully aware of what they are doing. At dire times of extreme stress and loss of supply they can have a psychotic break, however, it is short lived.

        The following is an excerpt from Vacknins book:

        Some terminology first:

        The narrowest definition of psychosis, according to the DSM-IV-TR, is “restricted to delusions or prominent hallucinations, with the hallucinations occurring in the absence of insight into their pathological nature”.

        And what are delusions and hallucinations?

        A delusion is “a false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary”.

        A hallucination is a “sensory perception that has the compelling sense of reality of a true perception but that occurs without external stimulation of the relevant sensory organ”.

        Granted, the narcissist’s hold on reality is tenuous (narcissists sometimes fail the reality test). Admittedly, narcissists often seem to believe in their own confabulations. They are unaware of the pathological nature and origin of their self-delusions and are, thus, technically delusional (though they rarely suffer from hallucinations, disorganised speech, or disorganised or catatonic behaviour). In the strictest sense of the word, narcissists appear to be psychotic.

        But, actually, they are not. There is a qualitative difference between benign (though well-entrenched) self-deception or even malignant con-artistry – and “losing it”.

        Pathological narcissism should not be construed as a form of psychosis because:

        The narcissists is usually fully aware of the difference between true and false, real and make-belief, the invented and the extant, right and wrong. The narcissist consciously chooses to adopt one version of the events, an aggrandising narrative, a fairy-tale existence, a “what-if” counterfactual life. He is emotionally invested in his personal myth. The narcissist feels better as fiction than as fact – but he never loses sight of the fact that it is all just fiction.
        Throughout, the narcissist is in full control of his faculties, cognisant of his choices, and goal-orientated. His behaviour is intentional and directional. He is a manipulator and his delusions are in the service of his stratagems. Hence his chameleon-like ability to change guises, his conduct, and his convictions on a dime.
        Narcissistic delusions rarely persist in the face of blanket opposition and reams of evidence to the contrary. The narcissist usually tries to convert his social milieu to his point of view. He attempts to condition his nearest and dearest to positively reinforce his delusional False Self. But, if he fails, he modifies his profile on the fly. He “plays it by ear”. His False Self is extemporaneous – a perpetual work of art, permanently reconstructed in a reiterative process designed around intricate and complex feedback loops.

        Though the narcissistic personality is rigid – its content is always in flux. Narcissists forever re-invent themselves, adapt their consumption of Narcissistic Supply to the “marketplace”, attuned to the needs of their “suppliers”. Like the performers that they are, they resonate with their “audience”, giving it what it expects and wants. They are efficient instruments for the extraction and consumption of human reactions.

        As a result of this interminable process of fine tuning, narcissists have no loyalties, no values, no doctrines, no beliefs, no affiliations, and no convictions. Their only constraint is their addiction to human attention, positive or negative.

        Psychotics, by comparison, are fixated on a certain view of the world and of their place in it. They ignore any and all information that might challenge their delusions. Gradually, they retreat into the inner recesses of their tormented mind and become dysfunctional.

        Narcissists can’t afford to shut out the world because they so heavily depend on it for the regulation of their labile sense of self-worth. Owing to this dependence, they are hypersensitive and hypervigilant, alert to every bit of new data. They are continuously busy rearranging their self-delusions to incorporate new information in an ego-syntonic manner.

        This is why the Narcissistic Personality Disorder is insufficient grounds for claiming a “diminished capacity” (insanity) defence. Narcissists are never divorced from reality – they crave it, and need it, and consume it in order to maintain the precarious balance of their disorganised, borderline-psychotic personality. All narcissists, even the freakiest ones, can tell right from wrong, act with intent, and are in full control of their faculties and actions.

        1. Btov, I have had up close and personal experience with Cd’s and schizophrenics and agree that they are different in some key ways. Psychotic people are usually afraid and overly stimulated. They are ego dystonic, their egos are fragmented. Not fragile but fragmented. In some cases they are so fragmented they don’t have what you would call a distinct personality. There is severe brain damage with this disease. The engine that generates meaning is affected.

          It is a very tragic illness. Some people who have it are gentle and sweet but most are anguished and aloof off of medication.

        2. BTOV, I just read this. I guess I don’t credit my Narc EX for having that much brain power, but looks like I may have underestimated him. Its hard to believe they don’t lose sight of reality when they are continuously immersed in fabricating. I think if I were always figuring out how to con someone and telling fake stories all the time and constantly putting up a fake front, I think I would be delusional. But I realize I don’t have in depth knowledge about them.

          1. And Kat, like I think it was Sparrow or Maria mentioned earlier on in the thread — they aren’t carbon copies. Conscious intent will likely vary a bit among these types. If someone is a pathological liar are they conscious they are lying?

            I think it was Dr.Simon who made the claim that the liar will lie even when there is no point because it fits with a general pattern of withholding. As if telling the truth about anything you might care about even a little is like handing you a gift of some kind.

            Very bizarre mental landscape they create. Even if it it becomes a reflexive pattern, but they are still usually aware, however dimly that they are lying. Honest people reflexively tell the truth and are aware of it. We define ourselves that way. The CD knows him herself better than the neurotic type, so I can’t imagine they don’t know when they are lying.

            What’s ‘crazy’ about it, is why on earth anyone would choose to live their lives that way. To anyone remotely normal, living an irreverent dishonest life would be pretty awful. But for them, I guess it is somewhat ego gratifying and ‘exciting.’

            So from our set of values, it appears insane, but it is just lives lived in a sordid, irreverent way.

          2. LisaO,

            A lot of the lies are like the mask, the CD do not want you to get a hint of who they are. Also, telling lies is fun, its a game of sorts. To the CDN they own the conversation, they set the rules and terms. Its the CDN’s truth not anyone else’s. It goes back to keeping one confused and off balance, the CDN owns the information, they are the controllers of the game board.

            Rather then living life as a mature adult the CDN are still back in the land pf OZ, always playing foolish games, causing mischief and chaos to support their warped sense of self and life.

          3. “Its hard to believe they don’t lose sight of reality when they are continuously immersed in fabricating. I think if I were always figuring out how to con someone and telling fake stories all the time and constantly putting up a fake front, I think I would be delusional”

            Absolutely, and that’s it. Their entire existence is a lie when one lie begets yet another, and another ad infinitum. The aim of the game is to remain in a “one up” position so lies to them are like oxygen.

            I have new rule of thumb now or rather a boundary – if a person lies to me and I don’t care if it’s only once, it makes that person a liar and I will have very little to do with them.

          4. Kat.

            You don’t need indepth knowledge. When you are with someone that causes you to doubt yourself, feel confused, over steps boundaries and your gut is saying “Huh” and you get that feeling something isn’t right. Stand back and reevaluate the person, normal decent people don’t elicit these reactions from us.

      2. I would like to add jealousy. I do not believe the whole personality is confabulated. My experience and growing up with them, the CDN have a mixture of the true self and false self running together. This is why when in the presence of the CDN the target is confused and questions themselves, in reality the target is dealing with a dual personality of sorts. I believe that is why the CDN are in a state of internal conflict depending on where they are on the continuum.

        The majority of the time the state of internal conflict is lacking in the sociopath, however, is present in many psychopaths even though they can justify their disregard for human life. The internal conflict is what causes the acts of inhumanity, violence and murder by the psychopath.

  12. BTOV – seriously I am not prepared to waste another shred of my soul’s energy to give to trying to figure out disordered people any further. My time is more valuable to me expending energy on working out what brought them to me in the first place.

    Academically or psychologically trying to figure out a narcissist is no longer working for me. I’m fixing the outside by correcting the inside.

    “As within, so without………………………….

  13. What I was trying to infere was that when 17 children loose their lives to a a lone gun men. This piece of grime has nothing but Irreverence for those innocent lives.

    Because of the psychotic/narcissist that is paranoid,envious and entitled other have to suffer and loose their young lives as a result.

    Understanding these parasites and being able to explain in simple terms what makes them tick is how I get back a small amount of what they took. If you know what they want you can stop them ????????? and help others do the same

    The truth is freedom

  14. This isn’t a riddle…. what happens when you cross a covert passive narcissist with a covert aggressor?

    My H’s son has had an underlying anger issue for as long as I’ve known him (35 years) he uses the silent treatment, doesn’t follow through on commitments to meet his dad, is an extreme procrastinator and uses lame excuses why he didn’t show up where he was suppose to, his favorite is “I forgot.”

    My H knows he should have confronted this years ago but now is now. I’m looking for advice. I’m tired of being held in emotional limbo because of his son. Tired of trying to figure out the best way to confront. He’d never admit he is angry and we think once confronted he will go full on silent treatment because he is extremely stubborn. We can’t keep tolerating this disrespect and we’re upset, angry, sad and on a roller coaster. The SS appears to be moving merrily along with not a care. He uses this as a punishment and we aren’t the only ones he does this with, he does it to his brother too and I suspect with his mother but she’s a whole other story I could care less about. This son is married to a covert narc and that adds another dynamic to our family. How on earth does a person confront someone who exhibits such infantile behavior? His demeanor has always been sullen and grumpy but it’s definitely escalated over the last 6-7 years, about the time he married CN by the way.

    I’m turning to all of you wise souls to help me out here. Your thoughts please?

  15. Sydney,

    It’s frustrating, for sure. The “kid” is selfish and really, not worth your time. If your husband wants to confront him, he will do it. When I see injustice, I will try to jump in and “fix” things, even if I am only involved by proxy.

    Then I have two problems on my hands. I become impatient with the victim who won’t stick up for himself or won’t take my sage advice and I become even more appalled by the “victimizer.”

    The net effect, when my husband was alive, was I annoyed him, which fed my obsessive desire to fix things even more. Pretty soon it was the drama I almost got drunk on and it was not a pleasant buzz!

    Fortunately it resolved somewhat and only lasted a couple of weeks. I was correct about what was happening with one of his family members. When we talked later about why he put up so much resistance to my perceptions, he admitted that it was all just way too much to deal with. He was emotionally maxed out. He died shortly afterward, so it took a huge toll on him.

    This incident with his family was no small thing. It involved criminal activity on the part of friends of his dying sister. They were cultists trying to get her to change her will while she was unable to think straight. My husband seemed to be completely inured to that possibility.

    But I could have screamed it from the roof tops, Sydney, and it wouldn’t have mattered. I should have said my piece once and then let it go. I don’t know if any of this applies to you but you seem to have taken on the entire problem when it is not your responsibility. You want to do the right thing but your husband is the one who has to do something…or not. And if he wants to back away from his son, without confrontation, that has to be respected. It may be the best and only realistic way to go.

    The son’s core personality isn’t going to change.

    1. Lisa you are spot on. I DO have the “fix it” gene and I internalize, oh boy do I internalize! I toss the problem in the air, roll it on the ground, bake it in the oven get it all figured out from every angle and I still want to wrestle a bear.

      I’ve been hurt by this “kid” as well and I should have confronted him in the moment but I was grieving. Within two years both my parents passed away and the “kid” couldn’t find a moment in his day to offer his condolences. I feel if a person has to be told then it’s not worth my breath. It was a cruel and thoughtless oversight and I have never looked at him the same way since.

      This past week I felt compelled to put all of my thoughts down regarding the lack of courtesy and respect this SS has shown my H and me. We are undemanding people, we don’t intrude, we don’t impose and we are the same people he has always known. He was better to us and easier to be around before he married.

      SS obviously rationalizes his behavior, and the selfishness is beyond understanding. His father asks for nothing, he patiently waits on the sidelines to meet up again and then the SS does a no show and an “I forgot”.

      My husband’s biggest fear is if he confronts him and it goes to sh*t then he won’t hear from him again, ever. He’s trying to come to terms with that possibility because this can’t continue the way it is. My thoughts are, oh well, their relationship is one-sided anyway what’s the difference. Every time plans are made we are on pins and needles wondering if he’ll show up. My H and I have a daughter together, she is by no means close to her brother but they have always gotten along and when she read my letter, she cried and said I should send it. She said “Dad is so great, how can he treat him like that?”

      My letter is not angry, it doesn’t name his wife it’s simply an account from my perspective. It’s my story. It’s asking him to help me understand what his motivation is. Do I expect an answer? No I don’t. My H has a significant milestone coming up in April and we doubt SS will acknowledge it. I’d like to send my letter to him if he doesn’t.

      1. Lisa, I also meant to acknowledge what you said about reacting to the injustice and I agree it’s definitely a trigger, and I have a knee jerk reaction to it. I also wanted to say that I agree that his core personality won’t change either regardless of whether we confront but I guess it goes back to the injustice of it all and my need to bring attention to his behavior. I appreciate what you’ve said to me. Thank-you.

        1. Yes he has Lucy. He has asked me to hold on to it. The intention was not to send it, it was an exercise to rid me of my anger. After the last let down from SS our home was sad and heavy. Our daughter was visiting and I confided in her and after she read the letter and my H read it they felt it said it all. It’s not a finger wagging, anger blaming letter. It’s a factual account of past incidents, and to ask SS to help ME understand why he can’t better prioritize is father into his life. I cannot stress enough how good my H is to this man and to all three of his children. I’ve had to watch him be disregarded even at the wedding of this SS, you’d have never known he was even the biological father. From that day forward, 7 years now it’s just gotten worse. As LisaO advised I have the need to “fix” it and I agree, it’s definitely something I struggle with. This is the man I love, have for 35 years and I find it hard to watch someone hurt him.

          1. Sydney
            That’s so sad. It hurts him, it hurts you to see him hurt.
            You already know there is nothing you can do to fix it. To understand it, the son is selfish and doing whatever he needs to do to keep “peace” in his home. Apparently he’s not ready to give up the wife, so he gives up his relationship with his father.
            I doubt the relationship between your husband and his son will thrive until he leaves the marriage. So maybe never.
            I’d probably keep inviting him to family functions, and he has the option of saying yes or no.
            So I’m sure holidays are stressful because they bring about the anxiety and hope and let down.
            Wish I had something positive to say to you. What do you do when a family member alienates another? Do you walk away or keep the hope? Myself, I’d tend to give it up, quit inviting, and until the son reaches out to say adios. But your husband is not ready for that. He’ll have to sort through it.
            That really saddens me.

      2. Sydney,

        I would send the letter. I HATE to use the word but it might bring you some sort of ‘closure.’ This puts pressure on the kid to either apologize or back away completely.

        I find more and more people are pathological (by the standards I grew up with) these days. Dr. Simon is right. Society has so radically changed. People are more uncaring. It’s becoming the norm.

        And it’s particularly noticeable when there is a death an illness or some other tragedy. You need to figure out what YOU want from your SS. Will an apology be enough?

        People like that make us feel like we don’t matter. That’s the struggle. It’s offensive and sometimes an apology doesn’t matter, because it’s not necessarily going to be sincere.

        1. Sidney,

          Your husband asked you not to send it? Whoops. He may want to preserve relationship with his grandkids. I spoke too soon. But, if it was me I would just ignore the heck out of that side of the family.

          Just stay away. Let your husband do what he wants with his son. It hurts to see someone we care about hurt, but sometimes we have to accept things the way they are.

          1. No Lisa, he did not ask me not to send it. He wants to wait until after his birthday to see if once again he will be ignored. There are no grandchildren to consider nor will there ever be.

            I want to ignore them but we have agreed to show an act of solidarity. The wife of SS is a CDN and we do not want to be near her unless we appear as couple to show force. Man, I hope I’m making sense.

        2. LisaO, I have to say you sure know how to cover all the bases. I like your observations.

          I require respect in my relationships and most certainly with my children, and if I don’t get that then I step away. We have always shown our children respect and there’s been zero issues with two out of the three. My thoughts not my actions for SS is another story.

          Oddly as this may sound I think he has a warped sense of respect? He employs emotional abuse towards his dad because he thinks we can read his mind? Who knows. I think he is a thoughtless, self-centered man who has misplaced anger, and thinks we are as thick as a log when he uses a pathetic excuse to pardon his behavior. I think he has a rationale that is reinforced by his wife. His sullenness and obvious hostility all but disappeared when he met her because he was so in love, but it’s back in full force now, seven years later. His wife is probably rubbing her hands together thinking when this link is broken she can move onto alienating him from someone else. Wife or no wife he is still capable of making choices.

          Yes, I want an apology but more than anything I want to tell him what he has done. What good does the sound of silence do? That’s his strategy and look how that’s working out. I would never turn my back on him completely but unless his behavior changes I don’t think we should be inviting this turmoil into our lives either. My H would have to be behind me 100% if this letter were to be sent.

          “Society has so radically changed. People are more uncaring. It’s becoming the norm.” Do you mean a generational thing?

          1. Sydney, SS and wife deserve each other. And yes, uncaring behavior is partly generational and partly due to unravelling of social political and economic fabric that used to hold things together. And…social media. People spend too much time on Facebook and Instagram. Everything is instant and shallow.

  16. BTOV

    They are continuously busy rearranging their self-delusions to incorporate new information in an ego-syntonic manner.

    This to me is some kind of psychosis. They are altering reality, and to them this altered reality is truly real.

    1. joey,
      Its kind of the same way we process new information, but they have to put it thru the psychotic filter before it can be incorporated. I am convinced they believe their own lies – maybe they know at times but a person doing this on a continual basis I would think, can’t keep the truth straight in their own minds.

  17. Sydney,

    You and I are probably alike, too, in that we are very triggered by “you don’t matter,” actions, words or lack thereof. As crappy as this issue is to deal with, it can help us develop understanding and resilience. We just have to focus on the educational angle. And often that only comes in retrospect.

    We have to eventually let others irreverence help to build our own reverent attitude towards life. But it takes time. Seven years of being given this message, repeatedly by SS and wife keeps tearing scabs off.

    It takes time and spiritual jujitsu. I’m not there yet. I still have way too much fight in me. Sometimes that’s a good thing, but I still have a lonnnggg way to go.

    Big hug to you. You are so worth it and such a lovely person!

  18. Sydney
    I just flip-flopped my response to you saying I’d keep inviting then I said I’d maybe quit inviting.
    So that’s how confusing it is.
    I think once I’d given up on it I’d maybe move on and disengage from the son. The hope brings the constant grief.
    That’s a tough one.

    1. Lucy,
      Inviting him to family gatherings is a once a year endeavor when we get together near Christmas at a restaurant. We no longer invite them into our home it’s too much of a sh*t show with wife and her “tongue in cheek” comments. (read, it’s permission to demean) A restaurant is a safe zone we can disengage from at a moments notice. Otherwise it’s a one on one with his father when his father reaches out to him. They agree on a time and a place and SS can be a no show, you just never know. No apology just a lame excuse. Time passes, H reaches out and the cycle starts again.

      I’m fairly sure my H is near the end of this. I AM at the end of this. I needed to hear it here because of self-doubt.

      Thanks Lucy

      1. Sydney,

        You have done all the right things, now I guess you just have to wait for your husband to reach acceptance. Very sad for him, huh?

        1. Yes Lisa, well said… he is definitely struggling. I will offer up an update if anything transpires. Thank-you for listening.

  19. Sydney/Lisa et all in the convo

    I’ve followed your posts Sydney and I can say this being a fixer myself – the fixer needs to stop fixing things ( and I struggled with this too believe me). At the end of the day I had to come to terms with one glaring fact and it’s this. Other people, their behavior, their relationships to others and how they treat others is none of our business.

    We can only control ourselves we can’t control another human being nor hold them to account for how we feel. I suggest you deal with your own emotions he is triggering in you. His behavior is triggering you – triggering being the operative word here. That’s hitting in a wound you carry and he’s lining up reflecting that straight back at you. It’s showing you you are holding onto something not yet resolved in you.

    In regard to asking him to help you understand I can say this – I’ve tried this tac before in the past with a few of them and it fails every single time. They will take it and use it against you. Especially if he shares it with his wife. They may well see you as an interfering busy body and in all probability will and it can cause more good than harm and it can have ripple out affects. I would definitely not go there.

    What I suggest you do Sydney is put the onus back onto you. How you are feeling and what this is triggering inside for you and deal with that. Your husband’s relationship to his son is between his son and him really and as much as you have been married to him for 35 years it’s still in reality none of your business and you have no right to interfere.

    I’m not saying this to be unkind or judging you in any way but I’ve had this done to me and I’ve stepped in past situations to tried and rectify things between others. I’ve learned from past mistakes and it cost me a lot. It doesn’t work Sydney and it causes more grief than good. Other’s are none of our business no matter who they are. If you are getting a surge of emotions due to this situation that’s what you need to be looking at. Why? Because that’s the only thing you can fix in this situation – YOU.

  20. Lisa/kat/Rachel

    I can tell you now EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING – ALL relationships and who we attract into our lives is FOO related – FOO meaning Family Of Origin.

    What I have come to realise is that narcs/psyhopaths/ CD are just a symptom of our core relationship we have with our own inner being. The way they treat us is the way we were treated as children or hits on (triggers) our core wounded states we experienced as children during our upbringing. These wounds are intergenerational and passed down through the matriarchal and patriarchal lines from parental imprinting. As an added boon (sarcasm) we pick quite a few up along the way so every new generation is slightly more damaged than the prior. Unless we do something to correct this.

    I’ve observed many people over the years and we mirror our own parents as in if we had super busy parents always doing stuff. Their offspring are usually super busy doing stuff. If they are more hedonistic we are likely to be more hedonistic – it’s imprinting. The more you pay attention the more you see it.

    Our parents don’t have to be narcissists for us to attract narcissists. All that means is we will bring to us those very people who make us feel like we did when we were kids. When we were getting our magic little selves knocked clean out of us by adults who had no clue what they were doing trying to mold us into something we are not rather than allow us to be who we actually are. This is wounding. Their parents did the same to them, whose parents in turn did the same to them ad infinitum……………

    Yes sure, some of us did have narc parents – woeful that would have been and my heart goes out to everybody who endured that. There is just something really festy about CD though – serious dark energy there that lot.

    What happens with these traumas (which is our core self being smited you could say) is we create false and very hidden beliefs about ourselves – this is the real wounding. It are these stories we are largly unconscious off that our ego self is defending. Manifesting in certain situations and behavior by us and others towards that reinforces these unconscious false beliefs we have about ourselves. This is the danger because it’s these false beliefs the law of attraction works on. This is not mumbo jumbo either.

    There are four core programs/scripts/tapes we have with subbies underneath them and they are loss, victimhood, unworthiness and disempowerment. Anybody we bring into our lives is going to end up demonstrating behaviors that will reflect that back to us which we are holding onto.

    In other words “hitting off” on one of those 4 core scripts. This is the mirror effect. If we use these experiences wisely we can trace these scripts back to point of origin and uplevel them so we no longer carry these charges. When we are triggered by somebody, we will notice a feeling somatically, either a tightening of the chest or a hit to the solar plexus this is where the trauma is stored. We can access this trauma somatically and go deep into it – this is what Kolk was referring to in his talk I posted earlier. There are a number of ways we can use to access these scripts and disable them.

    Life doesn’t happen to us – it happens FOR us. And people who show up in our lives are here to free us of our trapped trauma. This is how I am seeing life now, not as a cursed human who attracts narcs but as blessing to have had that experience that has allowed me to liberate myself from a lot of false beliefs I was holding onto about myself.

    1. Eudoxia, you describe things very well. I do believe we attract back into our lives the re-experiencing of what was traumatic for us earlier in life. One would hope we could work it out, and theres the opportunity to do that if we see what is happening, but often the blind spots are there and it happens over and over and we are not breaking the cycle. Right now I have been experiencing some physical symptoms I know are due to anxiety. It came from having to be constantly vigilant , and the pattern persisted. I see what triggers me and the relationship of it to my FOO and where it is occurring and with who. Its a lot of difficult work to break these patterns, especially the length of time they have been ingrained, but of course totally worth the effort.

  21. Eudoxia,

    I feel it’s like a battle of overcoming. That most suffering has meaning and purpose and it IS mainly our business to figure it all out, as you have described and then get to work.

    And I know that you come from a place of strength and compassion, but sometimes I wonder if the cultural emphasis on the self and empowerment provides an excuse to withhold compassion.

    1. Lisa,

      Forget the cultural emphasis – it’s a bum steer. The cultural emphasis is the opposite of our true self emphasis. When we strip back layers of false beliefs we have about ourselves it amounts to being compassionate toward ourselves and forgiving those who have trespassed against us either consciously (narcs) or unconsciously non narc/damaged people. Hurt people, hurt people period.

      For the most part our parents do not mean to hurt us. I know for one when I was in my 30’s I was at peak ego fixation running on automatic behaviors. I took me a long while before I figured out I was my own worst enemy so I set about to correct this. Then when I was finally in more control and not doing things that would sabotage me is when I got narc attacked. All that good work went out the window and I was back to square one again or so it seemed. But that’s okay because I found the bomb! So it was an added boon in that regard.

      Finding true expression is not about withholding compassion – quite the opposite. It’s ultimately about finding true compassion for ourselves first and foremost then we can naturally extend true compassion toward others. There is a big difference though in extending true compassion to others as opposed to people pleasing behaviors in order to make others feel better.

  22. A Wise Soul Once Said : Understanding the True Meaning of Compassion

    – from A Wise Soul Once Said blog (wonderful articles here guys)

    “In life we are taught to be sympathetic to those in need or the suffering. Sympathy means to share the feelings of another, and in the dictionary it even states having compassion. When you “share” the feelings of another you are not being compassionate towards them or yourself. There is no need to take on the emotional feeling of another persons’ pain in order to be compassionate towards them or to care how they are feeling. Sympathy is the opposite of the true meaning of compassion.

    The true meaning of compassion is to have a deep awareness of the suffering of another without the need to relieve it, feeling total appreciation for it’s value, all while being in a state of non-judgment.

    Being compassionate seems to go against what we have been conditioned to believe. For some reason as humans we feel the need to take on the pains of another to truly understand what they are going through. There is the tendency to think if we see one suffering we must do something to help relieve it or make it better. How dare us walk past a starving child on the street and not help in some way. It is in humane of us. How can we not feel the anguish of the family down the street who just lost a family member to a tragic unexpected death?!

    I ask you this, what good are you doing anyone by feeling their pain? If someone is going through pain they need light around them not more worry and misery. If you take on their pains you are doing no one good at all. In life everything happens for a reason and we must respect that everything happened just as it should have. It has value. If it did not happen many other things, thoughts, feelings, emotions, lessons would not have followed as well. Including this one learning how to be truly compassionate.

    We see the evening news and think how horrible our world is becoming. Thoughts of judgment and negativity swell up inside us because what we see on TV is so horrible and makes us feel badly. We are judging the people, situations, and events based on what we are being shown is happening in the world instead of sending love and being compassionate towards the divine plan playing out in front of us.

    How can the president, the people, or god allow this to happen in the world?! Everything happens for a reason even if you do not mentally comprehend it. Right now though your lesson from all seeing and experiencing the bad you see in the world is teaching you a lesson grander than love, you are learning to be compassionately detached. By allowing the world to unfold, as tragic as it may be, you are practicing true compassion. You have detached yourself from the pain, the emotions, and the judgment of a situation and stayed within the faith of the overall divine plan. Instead of taking on the pains and adding negativity by being truly compassionate you do not feed the situation more negativity and are capable of allowing a situation to heal quicker and service its purpose.

    Being a compassionate person is not easy because we are humans and we have deep emotions and we by nature are sympathetic but if we are to heal the world we must allow it to play out as it may or we are only adding to the misery and sinking along with it. True compassion takes practice. We need to be compassionate for ourselves and imperfections as well as others. We must realize that good and evil do exist in our world and one can not be with out the other. If we can not have black without white or lightness without darkness then we must accept it and understand the value in it and learn from it instead of dwelling within the agony of what is inevitable. Compassion is what the meaning of true love is. If you can be compassionately detached you are shedding light on the situation instead of unneeded worry, anger, and sadness”.

    This is the Buddhist perspective of compassion. We can show compassion toward others only when we are aware and have acknowledged our own suffering we are therefore aware of another’s suffering. But we can’t relieve them of their suffering because that is not for us to do but them, as in their own soul path is theirs and theirs alone. Yet we can show them how they can relieve themselves of their own suffering and therein lies the difference.

    Jesus said “give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day but teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for life” same thing. At the end of the day only we can relieve ourselves of our own suffering nobody can do that for us, nor can we do it for others.

    1. Not to be too obtuse, but I want to remind you that Jesus did feed the multitude of 5,000, or however large the crowd was.

      He did not tell them – let me show you how to plant some crops and we’ll just sit here and let you be hungry and starve for the next 60 days until the crops come in and whoever’s still alive can feed themselves from their own harvest.

      How is that “compassion”?
      There is a balance as to when to help others, and when not to, and what that ‘help’ consists of.

      The trouble I have with Buddhism is that it’s a bit too ‘disconnected’ for me. I don’t see Love, or “Oneness” exemplified in being disconnected from others, in letting others suffer.

      Example: What of Jesus’ parable of the Good Samaritan? The man had been robbed, beaten, stripped of everything, left on the side of the road half dead to suffer and die. Seems like the Buddhists would have done what everyone else was doing – just walked right past the man in need, leaving him alone to suffer on his own until he got himself up, cleaned himself up, and walked off on his own – whereas the Good Samaritan stopped and tended to his wounds, cleaned him up, clothed him, fed him, probably gave him a few bucks and sent him on to live his life.

      Please don’t try to use Jesus as an excuse to be cold-hearted towards others. There is a proper order to all things in Life and any time Jesus refused anyone, it was because they had certain things to do first (like humble themselves and recognize their own need for God and Love first, or believe in a higher power than just their own ego and earthly accomplishments).

      As far as healing narcs, there is no cure from mankind. It is a spiritual malady – their spirit was crushed and severely damaged/traumatized at a young age, usually by ignorant parents who created a hostile home environment devoid of real Love, Compassion, Forgiveness, and lacked real Joy of the Spirit – that’s why the child grows into a narc – paranoid of others, overly concerned with themselves and their needs and desires, therefore, the tremendous need to control everything, because their parents taught them it’s a dog-eat-dog world out there and each person has to fend for themselves … always. Narcs were not raised in an environment of Love, Safety and Trust. I have noticed that those kinds of homes are also often devoid of God, devoid of God’s teachings, devoid of respect for God, devoid of examples of God’s Love. Therefore, if people do not know their Creator, they cannot respect their Creator, thus, how can they respect anything else, even themselves? They can’t, and that is where society has failed and why we see societies falling apart worldwide. Therefore, the remedy has to come from Spirit. Once we recognize someone as a narc, the best thing we can do is see them for what they are (severely spiritually damaged children, so emotionally stunted they have not emotionally matured into Rational, Loving Human Beings), protect yourself from them, (if they have to be in your life, just make sure you know full well exactly what you’re dealing with so they can’t hurt you – you are the adult in the relationship, and they are the fragile child that easily breaks (temper tantrums, distancing, lying, etc.)) and pray for them and ask God and Jesus to touch their heart, mind, body, soul, and spirit, to soften them, so they will be open to receiving God’s Love so they can be healed. Only God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, can give them the Love they so desperately desire but never received. Only Jesus’ Love can go deep inside and heal the inner damaged child hidden so far behind 100′ thick walls.

      One thing I’ve learned, when a narc tries to pull a fast one on me and treats me in a way that is not respectful, I just let them know, point blank – You think your abuse shames me, it doesn’t. Your behavior shames yourself. Your disrespect towards me does not diminish me, it diminishes you, so if you want me or anyone else to respect you, treat me and others with respect, and stop this nonsense.
      Just tell them that whenever they act up, close the door, and don’t speak to them for a while so they can think about it. That usually puts them back in line for a while, for they are concerned about being shamed (often they were shamed as children) and how others perceive them. Their ego wants to put on a good front for everyone.

      And since we’re dealing with a spiritual malady, it’s wise to deal with the spiritual world and take a couple of minutes to cast out the evil spirits that torment them. (For those of you who don’t believe in evil spirits … wise up. They’re all over the place, and they can drive people insane and cause them to do crazy things, think crazy ways.) This is how I do it, and it usually works for a time, until other demons move in, and those have to be cast out again. And that’s because people are ignorant, and they run around with their spirit wide open to everything around them, and expose themselves to evil people, evil places, evil vibes, evil acts and endeavors that society and peers claim are ‘normal’ and ‘ok’, and the evil spirits that hang out in all those areas are ready to jump onto and into anyone stupid enough to be unwittingly open to them. Unfortunately, too many churches, movies, music, people, and society-at-large promote the lie that none of that exists. It does. I’ve had actual encounters with evil spirits that visibly revealed themselves to me. It’s a real realm, and people would be wise and far better off if they took the time to learn about it and how to deal with it, and stop being so naive and ignorant about it all – because their entire game plan is to make you miserable, destroy your soul.

      So this is what I say,

      “Jesus, Father, Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus I cast out the spirit of unbelief from ______ and ask Holy Spirit to fill their heart, mind, body spirit, and soul with Faith, right now. In the name of Jesus, I cast out the spirit of deception from ______ and ask Holy Spirit to fill their heart, mind, body, soul, and spirit with Truth, right now.” etc. Here’s the rest of my list:
      Cast out despair, fill with Hope.
      Cast out selfishness, fill with Compassion.
      Cast out anger, fill with Peace.
      Cast out fear, fill with Love.
      Cast out unforgiveness, fill with Forgiveness.
      Cast out cynicism and sarcasm, fill with Spirit of God.
      Cast out lust, fill with Holiness.
      Cast out impatience, fill with Patience.
      Cast out false price, fill with Humility.
      Cast out disrespect, fill with Respect.

      I go down the whole list then end with:
      “And I ask the angels to come upon ______ and minister to him/her. Soften their hearts so they will accept Jesus and be healed.”

      Then I leave the person to Jesus and Holy Spirit to deal with ’cause I sure can’t heal them, and go on with my day.

      No one can go back and fill the loveless void and heal the memories and scars of tormented childhoods but God. The Love I have, as Wonderful as it is, is still incomplete and not fully matured. Only God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit have that, they are the only ones that can heal us with an infusion of their Love. I’ve personally experienced it, and it is real, and is why/how I can deal with the narcs our narcissistic, God-less American families’ lack of Love have shamefully created.

      I’m in my mid-60’s. Been dealing with a narc in my life for 36 years. Didn’t realize they are a narc until about 5 yrs ago, and didn’t come up with the above list until a few months ago. It’s been a long time, I know, but I don’t consider it lost or wasted time. I’ve done so much, seen so much, experienced so much, and have learned so much about many things, both seen and unseen, and considering that now researchers are telling us that people alive today will live to 120 – 140 yrs old, I’m in the middle, and in the prime of life and expect the next 60 yrs to be full of many Wonderful things.

      Yeah, it’s a spiritual battle.

      I’m gracefully shying away from any new narcs that show up. One’s enough to deal with.

      So why is one narc still in my life? Good question. I’ve learned a lot about myself, people, humanity, and Life, through dealing with them, and have grown wiser and stronger in spirit. They don’t disrupt my boat as before, and I see them through the eyes of Christ.

      Ultimately, the narc has to choose to seek healing of their spirit, so they can get back the Joy of Life and Love (safety) stolen from them as children, and no one can heal them but God/Jesus. No one go back into their childhood and give them what they needed then and need now. Not even the best shrink can do that. Only God’s Love can fill them, satisfy them … completely.

      The best words I ever read, and that dramatically changed my life forever:

      “Love has no room for fear;
      rather, Perfect Love casts out all fear.
      And since fear has to do with punishment,
      Love is not yet perfect in one who is afraid.
      We, for our part, Love
      because He first Loved us.” 1John4:18-19

      Until we first receive God’s Love in our heart,
      we cannot truly Love another, not even ourselves.
      The narc knows nothing of Love.
      They are traumatized insecure little children who live in mortal fear.
      Have pity on them.
      Pray for God’s mercy upon them.
      Love them, but don’t pander to their fears and illness.
      Always speak Truth and Peace to them and wish them well,
      then let go and let God deal with them.
      For each person chooses their path.
      We can only tell them about the possible consequences of their choices.
      And yes, remind them that they are responsible for their choices, and no one else. Sorry, no scapegoating allowed here.

      ~ Blessings to all who read this.

  23. I think empathy is feeling the pain of another. I have felt this and it has moved me to action.
    There is meaningful suffering and meaningless suffering. We aren’t tasked with interfering with the meaningful kind — the kind that can produce benefit to the individual if he overcomes it.
    But meaningless suffering–the kind of living torture that turns people bitter, robs them of dignity and purpose? We have to be able to figure out what kind of suffering and how to help, I think.

  24. Lisa – absolutely, particularly empaths – we feel the pain of others. Not only that we are to some degree aware of their own wounding. Empathy and compassion go hand in hand you can’t have one without the other. Neuropaths can have empathy and do but they don’t experience awareness of others pain like empaths do. They understand the concept of empathy but they don’t feel it.

    When it comes to actual suffering – again I take the Buddhist and gnostic path here. Pain is a necessary part of evolution, we have to experience pain in order to raise ourselves up and learn from it. Suffering however, is optional.

    This plays a huge part in somebody who is upholding a victim position. Victims are not survivors they are shut down and stay in their suffering not prepared to move beyond it. I’m taking your every day “poor me” “sad sack” types who are always victims of something or someone, they are always and perpetually miserable never willing to look at ways to improve their own existence. Content to wallow in their own swamp of sadness.

    A victim will never take responsibility for their own suffering – it will eternally remain the fault of someone else and they will attempt to string people into their suffering and conjoin with them at that level. As in the old adage goes “misery loves company”.
    They can’t be helped because they refuse all help – give any victim a solution and they will still find something to complain about and give you every reason under the sun why it won’t work. I personally will have nothing to do with them.

    Survivors strive to move beyond their pain and deal with their suffering, when we’ve had enough we will either do something about it or get drowned in it. It’s the analogy of the dog whimpering. “why is that dog whimpering” – “because he’s lying on a nail” – “why doesn’t he get up” – “he’s not in enough pain yet”…………………………………….

    It’s why narcs favor empaths – they have incredible staying power because they think they not only can but are responsible for fixing them and the relationship while excusing and enabling the narcs behavior. How many times have we found ourselves doing this?

    This is when that sort of assistance and support including utilizing empathy and compassion ends up becoming self abuse. Protracted involved relationships that extend beyond discovering the partner is a narc then become self abuse. Fools go where angels fear to tread. And I have trodden this path before – but no longer :-

  25. Eudoxia,

    Okay, now I get it! We’re on the same page. I hate it, for example, when wealthy people play the victim over paying higher taxes to help pay for affordable housing in areas where there is a real estate bubble! I know working people living in Dickensian conditions who complain less.

  26. Sorry for my absence, for a time, I broke my kneecap, so laid up hasn’t been the word for it.

    I had what I refer to as the occasional “breakthrough communication” from the NPD mother. She’d heard about the knee issue, that I am off work until end of March. And it was “I am here to save the day.”

    Then she slipped up, “Oh, and your father is agreeing to help (already has), and kept asking, etc”. Followed up with “He is a narcissitic SOB.”

    I finally jumped in, thanks you never discuss a child’s other parent like that in front of them, whether they are an adult or child, stated, “This is not appropriate, I am hanging up now, I didn’t need to listen to this.” (right after she would start screaming at me, abusive drivel, I learned to tune it out, and to hang up, but not to listen to the content (which is going to be verbal diarrhea).

    Thank you, dear, I used to think that not only did my father not want to take care of me as a preteen (thanks to), I grew up believing the other baggage that comes with this.

    My first thought after hanging up on her while she was in the middle of more verbal diarrhea?


    1. JC, you were wise to hang up. Yes, put up your boundaries, you don’t have to hear it. Hope your healing is going well with the knee. Be well.

    2. Hi JC

      Ouch! a broken knee can’t be too much fun neither can a broken mom.

      This is about you now JC not her. Just fix what you can fix within you and leave her to her own devices. Nothing much else you can do just keep NC or MC whatever you have decided and develop healthy boundaries which appears to be what you are doing.

      We have no control all over others, all we have control over are ourselves. I would be touching base with my father again if I were you and sit down and have a heart to heart if that’s possible.

      I can’t remember if it was you who posted a while back that this was happening? Was it? I vaguely recall something somebody posted along this line anyway.

      Use your time out wisely for healing not only physically but emotionally as well.

  27. To All,
    This is off topic again.
    So I’m through with divorce issues, which means through with the badering and ill-will that transpired during the process. So now I am healing and restoring and fixing the financial mess it put me in. So I am of the frame of mind to fix what broke in my life.
    Here is the issue – people around me keep bringing up the X. Multiple times a day the topic becomes about him. I went to a party and people there I hadn’t seen in a while bring him up.
    I had the hopes I can just break away and not let him become a topic with my friends and to re-focus on the now and what’s positive.
    I realize people are concerned, or just curious. I completely understand that. What they don’t understand is that I want to put him to rest, at least in my conversations with friends.
    How do I do this? What do I say. I need something said to put the conversation to rest immediately. I have yet to come up with it. Speaking about him makes me anxious and angry. It brings up all the bad.
    Does anyone else have this issue? What do you do?
    Andy, does this happen to you? And by the way, how are things going, Andy?

    1. Lucy I had this happen to me as well. Some people are genuinely concerned about your well being and some like to see how you’re going to react.

      My SIL would bring up my ex-bro to me every time I saw her, and she would do it in a weird whispered voice because my other brother didn’t want to hear his name either. She always waited until her and I were seated in the backseat of the car together. I found it offensive and it set the tone for the short time we spent together. I realized that as soon as his name was mentioned I instantly entered a dark place in my head and I tensed up and became sad. Not how my H and I wanted to spend a once a month dinner out with them.

      Finally I had to say in a gentle tone that just hearing his name took me back to a very negative and anxious place, I explained that the second my ex-bro disrespected us was the second he lost the privilege of knowing anything about my life and at the same time I could care less about his. When I explained it in that way she understood and agreed.

      How about “I’m doing good, thanks for asking but I don’t feel comfortable talking about him.” They will get it.

    2. Lucy,
      On same line as what SYdNeY, a polite way first “Thanks but no thanks, I’m doing good and I don’t want to talk about him”. Only the most obtuse will persist after sometime, and for them just use simple “No”.
      As long as you keep calm and say as few word as possible, this topic will go away sooner or later. It will be just matter of time.

    3. Lucy,
      No. It doesn’t happen with me as often. Nothing more than a simple probe, and almost never a discussion. It is probably because of the kind of social circle I move in.
      Things have gone back to usual charming things. I am doing things that I prefer doing. 🙂

  28. Lucy,

    Response to questions about your X can always be handled with humour. Say you are asked after dinner, you can always say, “Sorry, I don’t like to talk about monsters before bedtime.” If it’s at an ocassion where you’re eating snacks or dinner you could say, “I hate talking about snakes while I am eating!”

    1. Lisa that’s terrible advice! LOL

      It’s kewl and I get it and so would others but……………….

      It’s okay if you are around close friends who have the full “heads up” on narc abuse and knows what it entails and what Lucy’s gone through, then you could say they wouldn’t be very good friends if they are bringing him up then she’s safe to joke all she wants.

      To anybody else particularly work associates and in particular former flying monkeys that type of emotional language comes across as disempowered, embittered and victimised – get’s back to SB and he has power over her again. It’s why Gray Rock is a good technique – important to show no emotions. You have to flat line them……………………….

      Lucy with these people it’s best to just say, something along the lines of and be quite firm about it too and unemotional “he’s out of my life and I’m concentrating on my future – I prefer not to talk about him any further thanks” if they persist just be firm and say “please respect my decision, I am not prepared to discuss X any further”.

      Short and sweet and a boundary has been implemented. If they persist beyond that it’s a good indicator they are being disrespectful and provocative and above all are boundary busters. Time to clam up and move on regardless of who they are.

      Normal people respect another person’s right to not engage or talk about sensitive issues where the “other” has expressed a direct desire not to do so. One of the most irritating kind of people are those who persist when you have already stated an unwillingness to give further energy into anything being discussed.

      I refer to those people as space invaders or energy vampires. They are dead easy to spot because they can’t mind their own bloody business and if there is one thing I can’t stand it’s busy bodies. BLAH……….

      1. Eudox,
        I’m going to use that. “I prefer to not talk about him any further. Thanks. I’ve moved on.”

        My anxiety rises so high, so fast when I have to speak of that man. My chest actually tightens up.

        1. Lucy,

          When someone asks me and it depends on who and why, I determine my response. The majority of the time I say:
          1. Topic closed for Discussion. or
          2. I make it a rule not to I don’t discuss my X, it is over….
          3. For some, I just say: He lost his Way… It’s over…..
          People do get it, if they don’t and want to delve into my business or roll in the dirt, they can go find someone else to carry on a negative gossip clutch with. People that want to pursue this kind of negativity are not the people I need in my life.

          I have never had anyone pry further with those responses. I may discuss with a few personal friends and I don’t trash him, I think my X does enough to trash himself without me doing it. If I ever become frustrated with past problems I have a few trusted friends I can vent with and it is over. I refuse to be drawn into the negative.

          In fact going No Contact kept me from being drawn into unnecessary negativity.

          1. Lucy,

            Eudox gave you some good suggestions too. It so important to set strong boundaries. Absolutely, normal people respect anothers personal space and privacy, especially, what you went through.

        2. Lucy,
          Its been so recent too, fresh wounds. Good advice already said, establish boundaries, respectful people will respect them. As Eudox, says “the flying monkeys” may disrespect them but don’t give them any fuel.

      1. Lucy,

        It’s serious business because while you still have those attraction points “charges” you are still going to bring narc behavior towards you. It’s the Law of Attraction in action my friend.

        If you don’t sign up to NARP or use another therapy such as EMDR and both work the same way you run the risk of attracting more of the same. That tightening of the chest and anxiety (that is surging stress hormones) that’s the original wound Lucy – you can uplevel that.

        This is brief 5 minute talk by Dr Bessel Van der Kolk and he is talking about the exact process of relieving people from stored trauma (childhood wounds) that are activated by other people (narcs are great activators!) and how to get rid of them. NARP works the same way as EMDR. They don’t really know how or why this works other than it does and it does!

        Failing either of those methods then I suggest you listen to some of the really good life coaches like Lisa A Morano, Merdith Miller and Jenna Ryan is pretty good to so is Richard Grannon – Spartan Life Coach.

        We can implement strategies/boundaries to protect us sure – but in reality they are only band aid solutions.

        1. First I will say I have immense respect for Van de Kolt especially the work he did on PTSD in the 90’s. However, EMDR is an inexact study, there is nothing out there that substantiates the Hoopla that is going on without sound medical study and science to back it up.

          I have had EMDR and it had completely the opposite effect implied. I asked my doc today if we could retry EMDR and the answer was No for many of the various reasons already given by others in the medical field and in light of I had the EMDR done at a teaching hospital.

          My doc is familiar with Kolk, in fact they know each other as they both are from the same country and attend many of the same lectures and symposiums around the country. EMDR has also been a large failure with treating many veterans. EMDR is used to show progress and healing from their original PTSD. When the Vets are re-triggered they have to hop through many hoops to get treatment and many times are turned away with the argument being, the trauma is now caused by other sources rather than from PTSD due to military combat.

          EMDR may in fact be beneficial in some cases, however, I believe there is a fine line in determining this type of treatment is the cure all. I believe substantially more scientific research needs to be done in this area and conclusive studies that support verified evidence this in fact supersedes or can replace traditional therapies.

          The following is an excerpt from a medical forum: Essentially lining-up as either skeptic or advocate-which truthfully is quite concerning, especially given some of the extreme, closed positions reflected.

          As members of the medical and/or psychological sciences, we’re all familiar with the spectre of “zeitgeist” and how innovations from every discipline have often met with stern resistance to changes in deeply entrenched belief systems (e.g., Copernicus, Darwin, Pasteur, etc.). I wrote about this in relation to EMDR in 2008 [see Russell,M. C. (2008). Scientific resistance toresearch, training and utilization of EMDR therapy in treating post-wardisorders. Social Science and Medicine, 67(11), 1737-1746].

          Overzealous EMDR advocates, and the media, got far ahead of the science early on with mentioning of a single-session cure for PTSD, and understandably such claims were rebutted with calls for necessary scientific scrutiny. However, the question as to efficacy (Does EMDR work?) is no longer valid, with every major domestic and international scientific panel of PTSD experts speaking in one voice that it does.

          The remaining question, that fuels the so-called controversy or debate on EMDR is the underlying theory, or mechanism of action (eye movements). And the evidence is inconclusive at this time. Any person saying otherwise, on either side of the fence, is engaging in selective bias.

          So there is this wierd, EMDR therapy out there, and people have a reason to be skeptical, that something as simple-sounding as rapid, alternating eye movements or other sensory modality (audition, somatosensory), could possibly produce signficant therapeutic change equal to well-established behavioral and cognitive-behavioral therapies?

          The easiest and most dangerous response to this query, is to lose our sense of curiosity and discovery. Folks, in the 21st century, we do not know how neurons encapsulate human experience in the form of the rich variety of memories that define our lives. We know that people can cognate or think, but cannot begin to prove how that occurs at the level of the neuron.

          There are no empirically proven theories of human behavior-none! For instance, take systematic desensitization, a well-established exposure-based therapy put forth by Wolpe (1950s). There are multiple theories of mechanism of action (e.g., reciprocal inhibition, two-factor, corrective emotional experience, etc.)-none of these have or can be proven scientifically.

          Don’t believe me? If we cannot explain how a lumpy neuronal soma, with its dendritic branching, and gangly axonal features can encode, store, and retrieve memories of life experiences, than how do we explain what actually occurs within and between neurons during prolonged exposure or cognitive therapy that explains things like extinction? What answers you give, are all abstractions or theories, none of which are empirically proven as truths.

          Our infantile understanding of the brain, human behavior, and therapeutic change, should give us all a dose of humility, and an openness to new ideas, even if they rival what some “authorities” tell us are truths. They really don’t know either.

          So when the global scientific community consensus is that EMDR is working, despite violating nearly every bedrock principle of exposure therapy, CBT, and talk therapy (e.g., negatively reinforcing client escape/avoidant behaviors of traumatic stimuli, not teaching/practicing coping skills, not utilizing cognitive restructuring or rational disputation, not requiring 40-60 hours of homework assignments, not teaching competitive, reciprocal response, not engaging in therapist interpretations, requiring minimal client disclosure and dialogue with therapist, etc.), rather than dismiss as “only” exposure, distraction etc., think of what you’re saying.

          If EMDR is as effective as exposure therapy, CBT etc., as the majority of the scientific community says it is, despite violating long held beliefs of therapeutic change, AND is using superfluous, meaningless, or inconsequential eye movements…..what does that say about these other psychotherapies and our models of human change?

          The scientist, the human nature in us, begs for explanation and investigation, not outright dismissal, repeating some authoritative figure, or policy statement. The zeitgeist will always strive to discredit and stifle competition…it will be up to YOU, the next generation of scientist-practitioners or practitioner-scholars to become the future authorities. Do not let the current mainstream, popular views, in either extreme, keep you from searching for your own answers.

          1. I had a few sessions of this for PTSD with the tapping, etc. I was dealing with immense anger when finding out the X had and affair (later to find out extensive use of prostitutes), and we were undergoing marriage counseling. Every time I looked at him what I’d see was some girl doing sex acts, and I found the X appauling. However, I was still in the process of should I stay or should I go, giving the counseling a try.
            The session, to me, did absolutely no good. I found the tapping and the “how do I feel now” annoying.
            Anyway, maybe I did have PTSD, but I had every right to be angry, extremely angry and all the other emotions that go along with being betrayed, and I needed to reveal in my anger, let it out, feel it, and in time it would dissipate, as it did.
            Maybe the treatment works for some, but not an iota for me.

          2. BTOV – paralysis by analysis.

            Dr Kolk states clearly they don’t know why it works. I don’t know how it works either.

            But I know this – IT WORKS. Having retrieved false beliefs about myself out of my own head that has led me to certain behaviors over the course of my life and has brought other unsavory people into my existence – nipping these in the bud is essential for positive and spritual growth and that is exactly what I am doing.

            These memories/traumas/false programs are the ones we stored during our early childhood development ages 0 – 7 when our brains were not fully online. We were operating in a semi hypnotic state of Theta brainwave frequency – our Alpha and Beta frequencies had not come online yet. Therefore we had no way to analyse our life experiences accurately let alone record them accurately. This is a MAJOR handicap for later in life for everybody.

            Because at the root of it all ends up being what GI Gurdjieff refers to when he speaks of “The Doctrine of the Many I’s” – akka the lies we tell ourselves. These are what ego defense mechanisms defend making that them totally maladaptive in more cases than not. CD run on them with full tanks so do neuropaths where empaths are more in tune with their own core truth despite all efforts by parents and authorities to knock this clean out of us.

            For example if we saw daddy beating mommy we don’t register “the thing” the violence as bad – we think it’s all our fault because we are experiencing it and our brains are not developed sufficiently for working it out properly. We think we are bad and create a “story” about ourselves around it. This is the trauma.

            It’s these scattered fragmented memories that are pulled out during EMDR – same thing goes for what I am doing through NARP. It works for me and thousands of others, I am proof and I see further proof each day as people are resolving things in their lives seemingly miraculously. They are not sitting about drowning in their own misery they are taking full responsibility for themselves and their own healing. They are not relying on academic gibberish that has bamboozled the masses for hundreds of years in order to heal them. What for so they can get a load of anti depressants shoved down their throats while “the system” tries to treat the symptoms not the dis EASE.

            This is what Kolk’s work is about – these early traumas DTD – Developmental Trauma Disorder. War veterans were not 0 – 7 when they went to war so it doesn’t really apply to them does it?

            Further I have fully experienced the extraction method Kolk is referring to and I can give first hand testimony to it having experienced it.

            So I don’t need text books or scientific facts to tell me something I have experienced has no basis in fact. I don’t give a rodents rectum what the scientific community has to say about it. If people need scientific validation and don’t have enough faith in themselves to trust their own instincts and higher conscious aspect of themselves particularly via their own personal experience that’s their problem.

          3. BTOV

            Thanks for the info re EDMR. I’d read a little about it when I underwent some PTSD treatment, but really just did a few treatments. From what little I read, it’s the eye movements that does something or other to the brain to rewire, or refire it, or something . . . . I can see you’ve studied it quite a bit, as has Eudox.

  29. Lisa I was laughing when I read it :-

    I went to Ange Atkinson’s site a week or so ago and I knew it wouldn’t be too long before the narc jokes started to come out problem is they are not that funny…………………

  30. Maya Angelou

    Pretty women wonder where my secret lies.
    I’m not cute or built to suit a fashion model’s size
    But when I start to tell them,
    They think I’m telling lies.
    I say,
    It’s in the reach of my arms
    The span of my hips,
    The stride of my step,
    The curl of my lips.
    I’m a woman
    Phenomenal woman,
    That’s me.

    I walk into a room
    Just as cool as you please,
    And to a man,
    The fellows stand or
    Fall down on their knees.
    Then they swarm around me,
    A hive of honey bees.
    I say,
    It’s the fire in my eyes,
    And the flash of my teeth,
    The swing in my waist,
    And the joy in my feet.
    I’m a woman
    Phenomenal woman,
    That’s me.

    Men themselves have wondered
    What they see in me.
    They try so much
    But they can’t touch
    My inner mystery.
    When I try to show them
    They say they still can’t see.
    I say,
    It’s in the arch of my back,
    The sun of my smile,
    The ride of my breasts,
    The grace of my style.
    I’m a woman

    Phenomenal woman,
    That’s me.

    Now you understand
    Just why my head’s not bowed.
    I don’t shout or jump about
    Or have to talk real loud.
    When you see me passing
    It ought to make you proud.
    I say,
    It’s in the click of my heels,
    The bend of my hair,
    the palm of my hand,
    The need of my care,
    ‘Cause I’m a woman
    Phenomenal woman,
    That’s me.

    1. Joey,

      What a beautiful poem, I am going to send it to a shy fellow I know and see how he responds. Whats the right way for him to respond??????

      Thank you, I love it…….

      1. Lucy,

        The poem is about you…… the poem is about me. Its about all the lovley ladies that grace this site, Jean, LisaO, Eudox, Kat, Sydney, JC, our long ago Theresa Marie, Puddle, Elva, Tori, Vera and so many others.

        Thanks Joey, your very precious to us, You too, AndyD

        Hugs and blessings to All

  31. “Now you understand
    Just why my head’s not bowed.
    I don’t shout or jump about
    Or have to talk real loud.”

    The poem Joey posted- I like this part especially!
    It sounds like someone who is confident in their value as a person.

    1. Kat,

      I am glad you pointed this part out for further thought, Kat. I think it also suggests Humility. We can have confidence and have a sense of value, without humility, well some don’t defer too. I think Humility is the key.

      Thanks again Kat,

  32. Lucy

    There is no avenue to reply to your post.

    EMDR works well for many people and it applies specifically to trauma and non trauma experienced from ages 0 – 7. What we experienced may not necessarily be trauma but because our brains are not fully developed therefore everything we witness and experience is not processed properly. This leaves us with false beliefs we have about ourselves.

    EMDR targets these types of blocks within a person’s psyche. I have not done EMDR but from what Kolk says I have experienced it via NARP. What may not have been traumatic can have as negative effect on our self/false beliefs we instill about ourselves and can appear to be just as traumatic though. At the end of the day because our brains have not fully developed what we have stored is all a pile of gibberish.

    When we are triggered it’s our brain trying to extract data from a a dodgy file and then returns something that is not accurate – “a story” that may or may not be true. Think the law of databases “shit in – shit out”.

    It’s rewiring our brains, and as Kolk says it extracts data from our deep unconscious parts of our brains and brings it to our frontal cortex for processing so we can make sense of it. It resolves the trauma. It doesn’t happen overnight but is a steady process. NARP works the same way but is not related to eye movement.

    Having fully experienced extractions (fragmented memories) of this kind and they are all early childhood fragments. I can remember, even slightly, things I thought were quite insignificant memories but somehow during the shifts it opens another avenue to experience what happened later to us. It shifts out the trauma or rather the event we have interpreted and equate to as trauma or not and rectifies it to a point so it makes sense. That’s the release.

    I am not prepared to demonstrate some of these experiences in this forum as it’s not safe to do so. But I can tell you now it works and is working for thousands of others.

    It’s really important Lucy to do your own research ABSOLUTELY and do not rely on others including me or anybody else. Do your own research and form your own understanding and conclusions. We have your own internal instinct and intuition this is our internal guidance system to decipher truth or not. Plus when we fully experience it – we know it’s real being a first hand witness to ourselves. Other’s opinions are totally irrelevant at this point.

  33. One of my narcs asked me once, *are you calling to pay me homage on my birthday?”

    My answer, “Homage means worship, No, I called to wish you a happy birthday.”

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