Narcissistic Insult: When Reality Shatters Illusion

Narcissistic individuals tend to project a haughty persona.  They do this whether they’re the more “vulnerable” (i.e. neurotic) or “grandiose” (i.e. character disturbed) type of narcissist. But whether the lofty image they put forth is an unconsiously constructed facade compensating for feelings of inadequacy or is rooted in a conscious but nearly delusional over-assessment of their self-worth, sometimes life circumstances can deal that image a major blow.  And when such a narcissistic injury (other professionals prefer the terms “wound” or “insult”) occurs, the “meltdown” that can happen in the aftermath is never pretty.

Classical psychology paradigms teach that the two prime ways narcissists handle insults to their self-image (i.e. reality and situationally-based challenges to their delusions of grandeur) are through denial and projection – denial being construed as the very primitive and unconscious ego defense mechanism by which folks block out of their conscious awareness what would be too anxiety-evoking or emotionally painful to accept, and projection being the nearly equally primitive defense mechanism by which folks attribute to other people, places, and things motives, behaviors, or feelings they find too anxiety-evoking or emotionally painful to accept about themselves. As I have long insisted in my books and other writings, these classical interpretations have their limits of validity and applicability, especially when it comes to the character disturbed. Nevertheless, the behaviors described above are well-known to anyone who’s ever had to deal with a narcissistic person.  And as disturbing as the behaviors are in themselves, the frequent fallout from them is often even more disturbing.

Perhaps nothing is as frustrating as trying to “get through” to someone who simply won’t hear what you have to say.  You can use example after example or make point after point trying to get them to see something that seems as obvious as the nose on your face and the narcissist simply won’t concede.  When what you have to say challenges the grandiose image they have of themselves, they simply won’t give it any validity.  And this is not usually because they have so much anxiety or are in such conflict of conscience over matters that they simply can’t bear the truth. Rather, it’s their defiant attitude toward anything but the truth as they insist on seeing it and their determination to maintain both the image they’ve constructed and the position of superiority they believe they deserve that motivates them to resist accepting what they actually know to be the real truth.  This is the difference between really being in the psychological state of denial as opposed to engaging in denial as a tactic of impressiona management, image maintenance, and responsibility avoidance (I have a lot more to say on this topic in my books In Sheep’s Clothing, Character Disturbance, and The Judas Syndrome as well as several articles here on the blog including:  Denial – What It Is and What It Isn’t, Traditional Therapy Biases and “Denial”, Denial – Manipulation Tactic 4, and “Denial” Top 5 Misused Psychology Terms – Part 1).  But sometimes the reality of circumstances, and especially of someone’s failure, becomes too patently self-evident for a narcissist to successfully deny. And that’s when things with them can get really dicey.

Narcissists will do almost anything to preserve their grandiose self-image.  So when circumstances make it all-too-clear that they’re not as great as they claim and also that it’s folly to try and deny it, they will reliably blame everyone and anything else.  If they didn’t attribute fault to others, “bad luck,” or various other circumstances, they’d have to fault themselves and reckon with their illsions. And that’s not only unpalatable but also necessarily a lot more work than the “entitled” among us are generally attitudinally prepared to do.  And depending on how serious a mess they made of things, and how image-shattering and depressing it would be to admit their shortcomings and failures, when they vent their rage it can have profoundly serious consequences to those upon whom it is directed.

Those who’ve been victims of narcissistic rage (prompted by narcissistic insult) know very well how brutish, bullying, and cruel a “wounded” narcissist can be.  In next week’s post I’ll be sharing an example or two.  I’ll also be presenting some vignettes in which this kind of behavior was confronted, once with a modicum of success, and the other time with none. Anyone wanting to provide examples they think would be helpful for me to share with the readers (in abridged form) can do so by sending their stories along through the “Contact Dr. Simon” feature.

Character Matters will again be a live program this Sunday evening at 7 pm Eastern (4 pm Pacific) time, so I can take your phone calls.

145 thoughts on “Narcissistic Insult: When Reality Shatters Illusion

  1. Can anyone shed some light on weather or not there’s a difference in the reaction to narcissistic injury between a vulnerable narcissist and a grandiose? Or do they both just rage?

    1. valencia,

      They both rage!
      The difference may be how long they can hold up their rage under continuous assault from reality. I guess, vulnerable narcissist will be more prone to collapse when he faces reality in its full ugly form every day.

    2. I can’t speak for a grandiose, but the narc I was married to was covert and when his “injury” (several combined at once, actually) came down, he became the absolute opposite of all he had presented himself to be: the lying was and still is at another level altogether. He sees himself as a total victim, “sources” off his own children, has a pseudo sexual relationship with his older daughter, is enmeshed with his older sister (mommy figure) and the smear campaign towards me has been nothing short of amazing. The façade has unraveled, and it’s not a pretty sight. Avert your eyes!

      1. After being married to a covert narc for 15 years and having 3 children with him, he had several negatives hit him at once and suddenly became someone I did not recognize. When he became violent with our sons and with me, I realized there was no salvaging the relationship and served him with divorce papers. What followed was the most frightening 6 months of my life.

        He stalked me, coming by the house at all hours. Sometimes he just lurked outside without saying anything. I had to call the police and have him arrested once and had a restraining order placed on him. He called me pretending to be someone else. He called my friends (whom he didn’t actually know) telling them that I had lost my mind. He tried to “legally disown” (whatever that means) our oldest son. He tried to take our house in the divorce and have me move into the apartment building where his sister lived. He had his enormous family raid our house, basically clearing out everything we owned, and he told our bishop that I should not have a key to the church (to practice the organ) because I was a thief and would steal things. He took our youngest son (8 years old) out of town without telling me or leaving a phone number. Then, didn’t return him on time. I was hysterical. After my son came home, he told me that the house they stayed at was raided by the police the night they were there!! He told our 11-year-old son that it was illegal for him to tell me what they did during visitations. When I reported this to the lawyer, my ex called my son, called him a liar, and told him he should be ashamed for being such a horrible person. I could tell my son was about to cry. So, I took the phone, listened for a couple of seconds (without saying anything. I just listened) and then hung up on him.

        Luckily for me, he found another woman and married her the weekend after our divorce was final. I tried to warn her, but she just thought I was jealous, I guess. He moved her to another state to get her away from her family. That marriage only lasted 3 years, but I know that she broke her phone (the big, old-fashioned kind) over his head and threw him off a cliff, during that time. God only knows what she did when my sons were not around to watch. What I told them is that “what goes around comes around” and because of the new wife, their dad got what he deserved without any of us having to do it.

        1. Daphne,

          How dare you have the audacity to leave. In his perverted mind he owned everything including you. I had a similar situation but far worse. The only way I got him out of my life was he was given another home we owned 225 miles away.

          Many times and I feel for the other woman it is one of the things that will distract the CDN from bothering you as much.

          In the end they do make their own beds…

      2. Rhonda, I feel your experience because I’m living it. I was with my husband for 30 years and he always had a fear that I would leave him. Things got really bad when our 3 children became teens and he really wanted them to like him. He became a teen and was back in high school again. Then I became the enemy and my daughter became his concubine. He became a mean girl with her badmouthing me. I called him on it and all the other bad behaviors towards me. He was also addicted to porn, which I confronted when I found out (injury), as it is an infidelity to me and got in between our intimacy of course. Those things plus almost loosing the house because of mishandling finances…So guess who’s become the evildoer? His vitriolic lies are being spread throughout the family. HE filed for divorce, trying to beat me to it and to make it look like I was abusive (didn’t file it that way). Yeah, it’s as ugly as can be. All the professionals, including his attorney, see the patterns. He took my two oldest teens and abandoned me with our youngest and is financially abusive towards me dragging the divorce out, while love bombing and buying the two teens with new cars, etc to prove he’s the good guy. Except he and my daughter sent my eldest son (16 at the time) to tell me “Dad’s leaving you and I’m going with him.” My son couldn’t even look me in the eye. He’s since failed 11th grade because of truancy and is repeating. They won’t talk to me.

  2. Thank you again for this post Dr.Simon. And shedding light on what is truly going on inside a narcissists mind.

    I think we can all relate to doing something wrong, self-centered, that would be frowned upon by social and moral standards at some point in our lives (no matter how big or small). And lying about it to avoid negative consequences.

    I think most of us, whether we come clean or not internalize the guilt of our wrong doing and feel bad about the hurt our actions may have caused.

    Take away the guilt/ empathy factor and why wouldn’t you just act like a jerk and lie about it? Especially when you feel so superior and self entitled to gratify your own agenda.

    They absolutely know the difference between the truth and their lies. Like the rest of us would. It’s the lack of empathy and entitlement factors that make them so easily capable acting like jerks and then lying about it again and again.

    1. Valencia,

      It’s like they are on the lying course and never stop. Lie on top of lie. And they have no remorse. They get so buried in it that it never stops. I’m trying to divorce one of these. I don’t even speak of him as a person, “one of these”, that’s how disgusted I am with him.

  3. Dr. Simon,
    I can’t begin to tell you the how accurate you are in fitting the most obscure pieces of these puzzling jigsaws together. The illusionist has had some of the most brilliant minds on the run for over a century. Honesty, truth and character are at the forefront and they have all been missing it, and its been right in front of their eyes all the time. The simplicity of it all. Its every other way but the right way, all smoke and mirrors.

    Thank you Dr. Simon, for your perseverance to find the truth. For me the lights keep going on, and the fog keeps lifting. I am so grateful, to all of you. I pray this might be the beginning of a new thinking and treatment of the CD that has taken a grip on our world. Perhaps, the insight we need for “one at a time.”

  4. The fact that the covert narcissist hides everything is proof to me that they know right from wrong. If they truly thought things they do and say are right, they wouldn’t have to hide them.

    1. Noel,

      And wouldn’t you think they feel bad about themselves for their actions of lying, deception, et cet.? I’d think it a part of being a human that you’d have these feelings, but they don’t. I think that is why I was so easily betrayed, because I found it so hard to believe that people are actually bad, rotten to the core.

  5. I unconsciously unleashed the narcissistic injury in my husband when I moved out. I was naïve, moving out with a last ditch effort to get him to come to realize I was serious about what I was saying.
    But unfortunately, by moving out, I cut all hope of trying to reach him. I think the narcissistic injury he suffered from that was too much and he became even more cruel. He couldn’t handle his wife of 40 years moving out – how dare I?
    It is sad.

    1. Jeanie,

      My STBX also is much crueler now than ever since I’ve left him (after 28 years). All his wrong doings are surfacing and it makes him angry. Too bad it’s directed at me – for divorcing him. Yes, how dare we???

      1. Lucy and Jeanie, the one I was married to actually told people I was begging him to come back when in fact it was the total opposite. He had betrayed me, again, and so deeply it was the last time he was EVER going to have the opportunity. The wounded animal within them, which I believe is the level their brains operate at, simply goes nuts. So be it. I deserve so much more than the shit he was dishing out – betrayals, triangulation, gas lighting, pseudo-sexual surrogate wife relationship with his older daughter, enmeshed with his older sister/mommy figure, lying about me to friends, family, therapists, emotional affairs/”sourcing” – God only knows what else. Took me a long time, but I hit bottom and started kicking for the surface. And yes, that “rejection” certainly brought out the monster from behind the mask – all the way out. Good luck to his new prey, a woman he was sourcing from during our marriage. It’s all fun my dear, until it isn’t anymore and you realize you really are sleeping with the enemy. Literally. The soul-leaching enemy. Education is key in figuring out where you’ve been and how not to go there again.

  6. I as your average person. I do not think that the Narcissist Rages. As far as I am aware, It is in fact what can be called A Psychotic Episode.

    “Psychosis is a mental health problem that causes people to perceive or interpret things differently from those around them.”

    1. Psychosis is when you think you are God, for example. The thoughts are completely delusional. Narcissists have their complete faculties, and are evil – not ill.

      1. Einstien,
        I would tend to agree with you on this. Their behavior becomes so bizarre it hinges on the precipice of one believing they are psychotic. I do believe that at times of their insanity rages we witness, which one would believe otherwise, they are in fact using an intact thought out controlled reaction to how they want to deal with a slight or should I say, just the mood they are in. On the other hand, their are others that don’t have the control that the more sophisticated use.

        What becomes hard for a “Normal” person to understand and perceive is that for individuals of the CD sort this is their normal. To us, especially, folks who haven’t any insight into these disordered individuals it would appear so. The term schizophrenic has been attached at time also.

        The interesting fact is the longer one studies and watch these individuals and the more information that is shed on their behavior you see the manipulation, the use of different masks and personas, if one doesn’t work lets go to tactic 3 and 4. No matter the bag of tricks it is the same. Its sad that we have to be on guard and ever so cautious all the time, you just never know.

        One must always beware depending on the other factors of the personality which we may not be aware of, they can have micro psychotic breaks with reality. What many of these individuals are capable of doing and how they think is alarming, inside they are the judge, jury and executioner and I think history has proven this..

        1. It seems that my STBX narc never wears out. You’d think these behaviors would be exhausting to keep up and that they’d break, but they don’t. It is their character and they fully embrace it. At some point I’d think I’d of quit being alarmed at the behaviors, it is so twisted.

          1. Lucy,
            I don’t mean to ruin your day. Just because you get the D doesn’t mean you will be done with him. But the D will be a big hurdle, I took back my maiden name to take back more of my identity which he seemed to forget I had. I hope for your sake he moves away or perhaps, I feel sorry for her but your replacement. Many times when you yourself find a strong supportive individual BF these sickos back off some too.

            Remember they are like drama queen vampires, cutting off their source of dinner will make them look elsewhere, but they can become quit ridiculous to what depths they will go to get attention, good or bad.

            The only other thing that seems to slow them down is illness, unfortunately, that seems to afflict the good people. Mine keeps surfacing like the thing that came back from the dead to haunt me. On the positive side they can’t stand to see your happiness and if you are strong and don’t falter and fall for their tactics, strength of character to stand your ground many times with the lesser CDN will be enough. Like any time they break No Contact send the police over or get a restraining order and then there are stalking laws. You have to decide what is most effective in most cases.

      2. I completely concur, Einstein. Have spent years attempting to find one redeeming, genuine quality about a relative. He is, unfortunately, simply put – pure evil.

  7. My ex-covert narcissist, just disappeared after i gently stated the facts of his behavior.He kept blaming me for pushing him out of my life ,because i expected too much,I told him in reality i accepted the absolute least a person in a 5 yr committed relation should accept.Instead of arguing my point of view any longer , I agreed that yes I guess I did push you out because — the sentence began with “there is something wrong with a man who- – – – ”
    This was the first time I took that tone. After a 5 yr relationship of push and pull
    I had the nerve and the I don”t care attitude to share with him exactly how i saw his behavior . Of course this is all thru text …
    Have not heard a word since ..

    1. Sam,
      Exactly what happened with me and my ex. I told him the facts of his behaviours in the relationship in a straightforward manner. I didn’t argue, I didn’t insult. Haven’t heard a peep since. 🙂 He crawled back under his rock.

    2. Sam, Anne,

      Unless there’s been subterfuge behind the scenes, you’ve been quite lucky. You mean there’s been no vindictive rage at all in your cases?

      1. not in my case. It’s not in his character. He is a narcissist of some sort, and a very skilled manipulator, and he has been aggressive and bullying when I’ve cornered him face to face with the truth, and I did not have the knowledge I have now.

        It is important to note that both Sam and I confronted our ex’s in writing.

        Mine would rather just get on with finding someone else to use for his self-gratification, and I think he already has. Plus, mine doesn’t want to cause waves because he wants me to keep his addictive habits a secret from his family, work and close friends.

          1. Lucy,
            I tried to respond further but my response wouldn’t go through. I will write to you later. How far behind in the taxes. Also, call the tax office and explain your circumstances. There are a lot of processes I think that need to take place before they can do that. If anything write them a letter and ask if you can make some kind of good faith payment until the divorce is over and things are decided. Keep in touch with your creditors you will be in a better position if you communicate with them.

            Courts and financial instituions know that money is scarce when there is a divorce. Try to take one day at a time, I know it is very difficult to see all you strived for go down the toilet so to speak. Believe me I understand what you are going through. Try to have a good day, stay strong and I will write tonight.

          2. BTOV,

            Thanks for your concern. I anticipate the taxes being paid, but it’s a situation that continues to drain me financially. The house needs to sell, and fast. I’m paying lots of money for a house I’m not living in – and attorney fees on top of it because all the issues raised by jackass just to try to get it sold. It’s ridiculous. I am ready to give it up. There is no money to be had in it at this point, because STBX is out of control.

          3. Lucy,
            So glad to hear your OK, and I really feel for you. Remember, no matter how much the lawyers tell you its about winning it is a ruse, their truly never are winners, that is except for the lawyers. Your X is an idiotic fool and for him its about vengeance and his ignorant ego that is a fools folly.

            Weigh very carefully and do the math what you will lose in sleep and time and everything else if the few $$ more is worth it. Until now he is crass enough to think its about the money, let him think he’s the winner of the fools game. Everyone knows he’s a fool and perhaps knows better to stay away. Walk away with grace and pride. The one thing at stake and try to keep level headed in talking with your attorney is your insurance and retirement, protect it at all costs, only if you know you can shield it and you know you won’t be paying the attorney off for the next several years.

            There are ways to protect yourself that I can’t cover here. If he has squandered his retirement, on lascivious fetishizes so be it. But you need yours in old age, listen very carefully, for “health reasons” and such. I am sure he can get his bar reinstated and possibly relocate where the standards are lower. Or he can practice as a legal aide they make nice money too.

            Keep cutting ties, that would include mutual friends and family otherwise you will stay joined at the hip. I don’t know about minor children, that could be a problem and for that matter the CD will always use children as pawns. Save your sanity for now, you have a long haul in front of you and this world is insanity.

            Find peace and joy in your soul, the true meaning of life. In fact a great read is Mans Meaning to Life by Victor Frankl. This world can take from you everything, but our soul is ours, the choice to lose it is ours and ours alone.

            You are in my thoughts and prayers and God bless

  8. “Those who’ve been victims of narcissistic rage (prompted by narcissistic insult) know very well how brutish, bullying, and cruel a “wounded” narcissist can be.”

    I’ll add vile and vicious to this as well because once confronted there is no turning back and if I had to do it all over again I would think twice. It is beyond belief how these minds think and to what lengths their rage will go. Setting firm boundaries and going no contact is the best way to end a relationship with someone who will never “hear” you.

  9. Timothy,
    I have never experienced rage with him. He uses all of the other manipulative behaviors but never raged, never yelled, no name calling, no insulting remarks. The silent treatment has always been his “go to” punishment. It used to be a few days , then weeks, finally months….we broke up in April, i accidentally saw him in July, he was pleasant, we laughed and talked and had a great visit..the next day he text referring to one small issue we talked about in which i disagreed. ( funny thing ,he never said one word about our short disagreement when we were having fun ) He wanted me to go home with him.. I chose to go back in the restaurant and talk to a friend He stated the next morning at 6am by text , “no wonder i am like i am when people that are supposed to love me treat me this way” then silence–
    He resurfaced in Nov with ” whenever i see u it breaks my heart” ( i never see him anywhere , so I”m lost on that text. ) I text ” why” his reply.. “don’t be coy u know why”….then a nasty text how i pushed him out of my life” expecting too much”
    I text back I agreed -yes i guess I did push u out , because i wasn’t going to be on the bottom of his longgg list of things to do any longer . I told him i hoped he can find happiness and that I am happy now
    Not a word after that.
    .He doesn’t want to hear I’m happy, he wants me to tell him I’ve changed , I’m working on my issues,, beg him to please let us try again..he is slow to realize I “have his number” and we’re not dancing that dance any longer ..thanks to Dr. Simon and everyone on this site..I saw the light!

    1. Month long silent treatment. Took me a minute to get “he wants me to tell him I’ve changed , I’m working on my issues,, beg him to please let us try again”. Expect him again in January 2020! 😀

    2. Actually that comment about whenever he sees you it breaks his heart, it sounds a bit stalkerish considering you haven’t seen him yourself!

  10. I have received a friend into my apartment. I know him from university.
    I knew him as a good guy that in the last ~2 years at the university was getting worse as a person(treating badly his girlfriend and some guys that were of not much help to him) but he was still pretty good with friends(I wrote his thesis btw).
    5 years have passed since the university and the guy changed a lot(I observed him mistreating very badly his girlfriend). But he was still my friend. So he asked me one day if he can move in with me for ~4 months and then he will move out. I didn’t have a bed for him but no problem I said, I’ve put more than half of my own money to buy him a good bed(that he will keep) because I felt guilty that I have a good bed in this apartment but he doesn’t.
    ~2-3 weeks in, he was commanding me to do some things(move a wireless router) in his room and I started moving it and he went to eat, when he returned he didn’t like that I was still moving the cables out(they were hidden under floor corners so I had to play around removing them) so he commanded me to “put them back exactly how they were before”. I told him to have patience that we will get them out but he started yelling at me to “put them back exactly how they were before”, I tried a few more times to explain to him that it will take just a few more minutes but he insisted continuously, so I responded with “Have some patience. You are behaving like a child now. This won’t take much” and from this point on he fired on. Note that his girlfriend also tells him sometimes that he behaves like a child. For example, he walks in underwear all day long and his girlfriend tells him to put something on and he responds with “What do you want from me? Leave me alone!” and she tells him in these moments that he behaves like a child. He tells her pretty often the phrase “Leave me alone!”.
    He started bullying me, telling lies to his girlfriend about me(I was in good relationship with her). If he wakes up at 3 at night to go to the bathroom, he will make sure he slams every door. And in the bathroom would start singing loudly(at 3 AM). Leaving me in a shocked state after which I can’t go to sleep any more.
    He is still doing this, almost after 1 year. I’ve tried not to play on his game, I try to be as quiet as I can be when I close doors or when walking in the morning to the kitchen. Just trying to be respectful as with any other person but this seems not to work at all.
    I have the impression that it actually works the other way because he recently ripped my favorite shirt that was sitting to dry. When he saw me collect it, he didn’t even wait for any word, he just told me “go f* yourself” – and take into consideration that we haven’t argued for almost a year. He broke my kettle and pan and I avoided telling him anything about it because I worry that he is capable of something more awful.

    How can I escape of such a person? I didn’t make him sign any contract when he came, so at least based on this I can’t get him out…

    1. Give him 30 days to move out, in writing. Make sure you have a witness that he received your notice. If he does not, call the cops.

      You are being grievously taken advantage of and abused. It is up to you to stop it.

      1. Oh, and make sure you remove all valuables in the meantime, so he can’t take vengeance against you while he still lives there. Keep your bedroom door locked. Speak to legal counsel.

        1. If you think the man is dangerous, ask the police for advice, and possibly get a male friend with defense skills to stay with you while “the tenant” is wrapping up his affairs. I don’t like the sound of this.

          1. Neither do i, sounds like an aggressive little sh*t!

            Please take care and follow Vera’s advice!

    2. Lilian,

      His behavior is abusive and aggressive. He sounds like someone who may have mental illness. Don’t be afraid to call the police to take him away, if you feel unsafe.

      Find the landlord tenant laws for wherever you live. These laws sometimes don’t apply to situations such as you describe (He is living in your home, not a separate home). He may have no legal footing at all, and you may be able to simply put his stuff outside and change the locks on the door. He sounds like a guest that has simply overstayed.

      Talk to someone in your area knowledgeable about the laws and what to do. There is usually an office that handles landlord / tenant disputes, but this sounds more like a host/guest dispute. Call mental health department too, if you think he is that disturbed.

    3. first get the authorities involved and tell him they are involved, so right away he knows there will be no way for him to turn the tables on you. get a letter from a lawyers that applies to your exact situation, so there are no loop holes. the fact that you do not have a lease it good, make sure everything is in your name (electric, water, cable, etc) so he cannot claim residency. in my state you need to notify them of a date when they have to vacate (each state is different on how long you have to give them). on that date if they are not gone you give them a 3-7 day warning (each state is different). on the final date, the locks are changed. if they leave their stuff it is now your stuff. you may have to call police to have him removed if he is still there. make sure you inform everyone you know in advance as to what is happening or he will try to slander you and make you look bad. remove all your valueables including tv, computers, electronics, etc make sure the police are informed in advance you feel scared and threatened and tell them what he is capable of in the way of flipping the story. record his rage if you can as proof. leave him no opportunities to do anything to you. have him trespassed that day so he will be blamed if anything goes bad later on. this going to drive the narc crazy but he will understand your on to him and you mean business. also make him pay for the bed or it stays with you.

  11. Andy. You’re so right. I bet he surfaces much sooner than that !!!
    He’ll. text just to do the blame game and play the victim. But mostly to see if he can get me riled up. and on the defensive …. Or upset and hurt.
    His tactics don’t work anymore

  12. Views tend to change with age. At least that applies to healthy folks.

    But do these aggressive fighters always stay exactly the same? Do they change over time, even if just in peripheral, minor and irrelevant aspects? Do they worsen? (A safe bet, btw) Do some get more passive or focused on other things?

    Can a person, aggressive or not, persistently stay mostly the same throughout age, even if not literally all the same? Is it even possible to stay all the same?

    -Timothy, zoning out

    1. Hi Timothy,

      Two divergent paths have been cited, one is from Clinicians, like Robert Hare, and the other is from direct personal experience of living with them.

      Hare mentions burn out, they get slower, less likely to actively pursue Narcissistic goals, using less energy, if they were physically dangerous, the threat of this behaviour diminishes, in other words, they get old!

      But the CORE traits of selfishness, no remorse, a weak or absent emotional life, and subsequently, an inability to empathise with anybody else stays exactly the same.

      Some studies have cited a slowing down of brain waves as they get older as a reason.

      BUT………youtubers like Narcissism survivor, (who had a Narcissistic Mother) tells us that they get WORSE!

      Like a lot of the people here, he has been forced to study the condition, so he is not just speaking from his own perspective.

      He had ‘no contact’ for around 15 years i think, then tried to reestablish a relationship, thinking his Mother had mellowed out, but no, to his utter horror she was as toxic as ever.

      Now he always advises No Contact, and do not EVER go back on that decision.

      I am tempted to say in response to questions like yours that we should remember that the individual personality must come into play, and not lump them all into one mold, but considering NOTHING about the Psychopath and by extension, the Narcissist is true of how they present themselves to us, their core would be nothing more than base drives and the ‘personality’ a constructed facade that changes according to the circumstances.

      As BTOV says further up in the thread, they wear different masks and personas, what would be a Personality to us would to them be tactic 1, 2, 3 or 4…..

      1. Jackie,
        I agree with much of what you say and watched Narcissist Survivor. The ones I know have gotten worse with age. I agree in some cases their may be mellowing. My concern is taking the chance of reinsuring oneself, maybe getting sucked in to be vomitted out. I think in most cases unless knows specifically they have had a change of heart it is senseless to put ourselves in harms way.

        I say this for the fact I had one showed up at my home last night, with the concern to know I was OK. It had been over 10 years. I didn’t want to seem harsh but invited them in. Within minutes this individuals was telling what to call them, they could swear if they wanted to and that was accepting who they were. Really they came to size me up. I didn’t engage, nor did I acquiesce to reeling over in agreeing to their claims. I was called a liar when I didn’t agree with their truth.

        I keep telling them I would have a conversation when I wasn’t tired and not feeling well. Ten minutes and they were gone. They never came to see how I was, it was to empty their over flowing sewer onto me. This person is well into middle age and from when I last seen them is more bitter and corrupt in their thinking then ever.

        After, the one last night I don’t want to give any of them the benefit of the doubt again, Ever. These individuals are stuck in a time warp and as they age all they do is replay life over and over and each time it is replayed it becomes sicker, a reflection of the sick individual they are. They are unwilling to forgive or forget but their flaws and indiscretions are nonexistent because they have cast them unto some known or unknown individual of their choosing, which just might be you.

        As I sat there watching this person and no matter what I said I was wrong and they were right, verging on argumentative. All I could think of was they are going to go home and take it out on their significant other because they got nowhere with me.

        I know this one is going to show up again, because they want to inflict pain. Now I know why people move far away. Its not worth taking the chance with them and drowning in their toxic sewage, they will make sure there is no life preserver and will make ensure they finish you, this what I see comes with old age. The only thing they haven’t figured is you know who they really are.

        The older age ones, parent ones, can’t stand you are younger and have some youth left compared to them. The resent and hate you for it. Unless, they have a revelation of God the fear of the Lord knocked into them, they are selfish and hateful to the bitter end.

        One relative I suggested to make it easy for all involved, was to just do a basic will with their wishes attached. They stated with a smile on her face “let them fight over it.” How sick, even unto death they plot evil.

        1. Aren’t you glad you know how to handle these people now? Don’t let them suck you in. Don’t be a “sponge” to hold all their waste. Limit the contact the best you can. I’ve sure learned a lot in a short period of time, thanks to all you posters, and Dr. Simon’s articles.

  13. BTOV
    That is loads of good advice.u main concern my pension. he squandered his and now is demanding half of mine. Half pension is not enough to live on. There are still assets but still the plan was never to live on my pension alone much less half of it. My poor adult daughter is getting hit with his craziness. I do what I can for her. I did have contact with him last week concerning bills and of course nothing resolved and it got ugly. There is no point in even trying to communicate even the least bit anymore. But I can’t pay my attorney $275!an hour with every issue that comes up. I to my boyfriend today at least ice got two great things going for me, a good boyfriend and a good job. Jackass can’t take those from me – or as you mentioned, my soul.

    1. Spath = short form of sociopath.

      On second thoughts, it is not really that short. Internet lingo effect, I guess. 🙂

    1. Yeah I did. I remember about time I came here she was posting. With you echoing her comment I remembered she’d been here.

      A while back there was another commenter, Alan P, who withdrew from commenting. He at least said he prefered to take a break because he thought he may dwelling too much these things otherwise and he’d find that too depressing. At least there was an outright announcement.

      With Puddle there doesn’t seem to have been any such public declaration. Maybe I just missed something. Could she have messaged something to Dr Simon?

      1. Timothy,

        That may be the case, perhaps, if Dr. Simon is able to, he will see our posts and comment on it. I know Puddle posted for a long time. Glad to see your here and AndyD. I hope some of the others pop in and let us know how they are. So much inspiration, it does a heart good to hear success and happiness after so much pain.

  14. Hi everyone,

    I listened to Dr. Simon’s radio program Character Matter’s on UCY Sunday night and he stated he got in late from the 3 days of workshops he had just finished. He said he was tired with jet lag and all so I am sure he will have his next topic out soon. I just started to listen to his broadcasts and they are very good. In fact you can go back several weeks into the archives and listen. If there is a specific question in relation to the topic he takes live call-ins. Hopefully, Dr. Simon is getting some much needed rest and will hear from him soon.

    As far as I know with Puddle she stopped posting several months ago, perhaps one of the posters that have been here longer may know. I believe she was alright, I think she may have gone back to school and maybe a new job. As far as the Spath, I hope he left her alone. Puddle added a lot to the forum and enjoyed her input and she had a “special” way of stating things. Perhaps, she will stop in from time to time. There have been and are so many wonderful posters on this site and they are in my thoughts and prayers as we are all Kindred Spirits on this journey.

    Blessings to all of you

    1. AndyD, LisaO, Suzi, Tori, Vera and others

      I know on the 4th of July 2015 we had so much to say. Many postings are there and many are gone. I watched the link sent by Puddle and the chills I felt then were the same today.

      To all and to you Puddle, we miss you. Buffy Saint-Marie I will never forget, what we do to others will come back tenfold to us.

      Gods blessings and may peace and joy follow you my sister.

      1. Oh god that is creepy, i was thinking of a track by Buffy Saint-Marie only yesterday, “Till it’s time for you to go”, could this be Morphic Resonance?

        Interesting theory by Rupert Sheldrake, take a look.

        BTOV i will reply to your longer postings later, had trouble getting into this site sometimes, says bad gateway, no idea why.

        I hope Puddle is ok, even though she was on here before i arrived i am a bit worried too.

    2. Yep. No posts from Puddle in last several months. From last of her posts, she had her quota of problems (who doesn’t), but was taking good care of herself.

      I am sure it is a case of patient with steadily improving health… one fine day patient stop showing up and vanishes into thin air. If one goes about searching, he just may find the patient on a beach, enjoying sunbath and showing off tanned skin. 🙂

  15. Just a little update on how this blog has helped me. After reading an insulting email today from STBX, and after three times replying and not sending, I was able to delete my response and walk away. No Response. No Contact. I keep telling myself . . . NO CONTACT! It’s hard, but it’s doable.

    1. Well done Lucy:) He may even send another, even more vitriolic email, ignore it, let him experience the silence of your disdain.

      1. Lucy, Jackie is right, if there is one thing we have learned the CDN can’t stand is to be ignored, so expect more. The ones I deal with, when I ignore them the more outrageous they get. So hang on for the ride and don’t let anything surprise you. Just shrug your shoulders and think of something pleasant. I pray and that gives me a lot of peace.

        One thing in the end if possible you will have to fill in a few gaps. We are all rooting for you.

        1. Indeed!

          Think of him getting the ‘Le Petomane’ treatment, having to sit in a chair behind him for several hours lol!

          Or an alternative 1984, a backside farting on a face forever, preferably his…..

      2. He won’t experience the silence of disdain. For him it is still engagement, silence treatment is not truce, it is just another tactic in the arsenal.

        In fact, even if this is complete disengagement from Lucy, refraining from replying on email/phone, not even thinking about him at all. He may still interpret “no contact” as “silent treatment”. Let him be at peace with his thoughts 😉

        1. AndyD & Jackie,
          Both such good advice. perhaps we should ask newcomers and all of us here to give us a farewell, so we know everything is OK. Its odd, even though we can’t see each other in at least my mind I have a formed picture of each of you who regularly post.

          I miss so many, how are you LisaO?

          I apologize, my all my grammar, punctuation, and mistakes, I should proof read and don’t. I actually wrote and did proofreading of documents at one time. I am at a point of trying to simplify after all I have gone trough and still have to deal with. All of you are such a blessing.

          Dr. Simon talked about doing a Webinar and I think at one point Puddle was interested. I would love him to do a conference in a centrally located area, for all of us, nice thought. Dr. Simon said on his show he will have his Topic out this week and was somewhat exhausted. I am sure he knows we will keep the sight going. We have a great group. I am so glad for you and Timothy. We need the perspective of men too.

          Miss Lucy, your getting the best advice at no cost from people who have had direct experience with the CDN and know far more than the therapists. Keep strong and if your feeling down or need to vent, we can invent the invisible punching bag . (Hugs & Hugs)

          Thoughts to you Vera, I know you have so much too.

          God bless all of you and may you have peace and joy.

        2. Andy D,

          I think that very much depends on the individual Narc, while there is some merit to what you say, by not engaging it forces the N to withdraw back into their disordered psyche to try to figure out what’s going on, and the longer No Contact is practiced, the more desperate they will become.

          For them, knowing there is nothing more to work with, they have to rely on memory, and by their poor beleaguered partners behaviour in the past, but No Contact continuously will disturb them because they cannot gauge reaction, and this is what they feed on.

          1. Fully agree with you Jackie.

            “No Contact” will be bothersome for most narcissists. And, exactly how it will bother one, depends on individual character disturbed person.

            I will separately post one of my personal experience on temporary “No Contact” and giving them time to introspect their behavior.

          1. Actually Lucy, that never occurred to me!

            You see that’s where the experience of people here, who have actually lived with these abominations really stand out compared with Docs who study them; much more detailed and vivid.

            I also get a kick out of learning that you figure them out eventually, and besting them:)

      3. It’s so difficult for me to not “defend” myself. It’s been a habit through the marriage to “defend” why I do what I do or not do, no whatever that may be. And that’s just what it is, HABIT. Wooooo, I think I’m onto something . . . . breaking my habits.

  16. Lucy,
    Thats great! I’m sure he’s fuming and waiting for a reply, I believe its called goading you into responding. Just a thought, if your at work when you respond, on whose computer and whose time? Just a question, perhaps, and I don’t know if he setting you up for disciplinary or would try to get you fired. They will stir up anything, create anything, he wants to take you along with him and crush you.

    Just a thought, these individuals are capable of anything and will destroy anyone and everyone who gets in their path when they want to get even. Don’t take any chances in responding to him he is not worth it, don’t worry about what he says or does now. If you know there is nothing in the works and your attorney should be aware of it, I wouldn’t give him the satisfaction of opening anything from him. Careful, be ever so careful he is a sly one and he doesn’t like being on the bottom.

    Keep severing the ties, don’t make a poor thought out mistake you may be sorry for.

    1. Good advice, as always.

      It’s on my work computer. I explained the situation to my IT guy at work, telling him the emails were harassing and bullyish, so he actually set it up for the emails to be directed into a special file, not mixed with my others. I won’t be in trouble for it. STBX loves to cut and paste, of course, distorting facts. He wants to build his case through email. I think his brain is ate up. He used to be brilliant. He’s grasping for whatever he can get. I have lost all respect for him. Even when he was mean, at least at a time he was a good lawyers. Now that is even gone.

  17. The disordered get an equal amount of thrill out of seeing you writhe in agony at their hands as they do seeing you adore them. Once they have devalued you, they actually get more pleasure from causing you grief. The greatest revenge is not letting them see that you give a damn.

    Fake it until I make it.

    I haven’t gotten there yet, I’m still trying to fake it. They aren’t stubborn…they’re rigid!

    Humanity is divided into two groups — those who love and build and those who hate and destroy. — Jose Marti

    1. Yep. No response shows I Don’t Care What You Say You Damned Fool. I love that – Fake It Until I Make It.

      He maliciously included in his email that he “warned” the cleaning girl of my behaviors. (We have a house showing coming up). Oh, did that trigger my defensive self! Funny thing is, the cleaning girl knows me and has previously said (through grapevine) that she hopes I’m not mad that she’s working for him. He made an ass of himself. All I have to do is stand back and watch.

      I’ll be glad when I can quit getting angry and replace it with some other form of emotion . . . . .

      1. Jackie,
        Excellent advice and I am sorry your hurting, it takes a long time to heal and the CD destroyers don’t want to give up. No words, no emotion, shown to them is the last word. They can’t stand it when they can’t have the satisfaction of your response.

        I am not done with mine either, he is a nut job. I wish I could say more. Keep me in your prayers and your support of everyone else gives me the fortitude and strength to go forward. A lot of wisdom is shared on this site.

        Lucy, stay safe and silent, believe me no response from you will make him respond even more. Just sit back and watch the crazy making go on. Everyone will see him, the real him and you won’t have to say a word.


  18. This is how a temporary “No Contact” of a week and chance to introspect, turned out

    I think I deal with 2 character disturbed of highest order and 1 moderate character disturbance case.

    After a big episode, and temporary timeout initiated by me, all the CDs were inwardly furious at me. I was avoiding them to some extent. A more normal reaction would have been to leave the person alone, but they wanted devotion from me to feed to their ego and how I had done wrong to them by going No Contact for a week.
    My avoidance (or not laughing and cracking jokes with them) was perceived as insulting by them, so two of them shouted at me and 3rd one (& I think this is the most serious character, the instigator, who never comes in front 😉 ) egged them on. I suspect they all knew that they did wrong again soon after timeout. So after that outburst, they went about “introspecting” again over next few days. Something like this transpired between them over those 2-3 days…
    No. 3> [plants the idea in the head of No 1 and No 2. that I did X and Y]
    No. 1> You did no wrong no. 2 by shouting, because it was provoked by him when he did X, I saw him doing that! (In reality, I did nothing other than avoiding them, and I definitely did not do X)
    No. 3> Yes. Yes. I saw that!
    No. 2> Right. I knew it! I did not know that he did exaggerated-X. You did no wrong no. 1 by shouting, because it was provoked by him when he did Y, I saw him doing that! (again, in reality, I did nothing).
    No. 3> Yes. Yes. I saw that!
    No. 1> I knew it!
    No. 3> You both are right!
    Now, they told ambiguous lie to each other, to sooth the other guy. Other guy twisted the small ambiguous lie to big lie to justify his own bad behavior.
    And, now they all are happy.

    Letting them be with themselves, will send them a trip of concocting lies and exalting each other, till they start believing that they did me a favour by pointing out (shouting has been minimized away) error of my ways (even avoiding them is a mistake, how dare I, a minor doormat, insult thy highness).

    That is just a reconstructed event, based on lies they told others to justify their behavior, and me putting several pieces back together now I know their nature.

    By the way, this is one link that I can personally identify with on what I faced in my relationship:
    This is one page that I reads every once in a while. I am no match for mercenaries, so need constant training. 🙂

    1. Hello everyone,

      Haven’t posted for a while and wanted to chime in.

      The ex sent me a FaceBook request for me to friend him. It has been two weeks and I have not done as he asked but today my resolve is weakening. I want to see his FaceBook page. Makes me wonder if he has pictures of a new girlfriend. Yes, he would do something like that. But I have not so NO CONTACT still holds. Yea!

      On the topic…do they get less mean with age. I found with the ex he became worse as the years tripped by and he continued to fail at the various jobs he worked, our marriage was falling apart, I was falling apart. The fact that I was falling apart and was not the nice wife he married anymore (or so he thought) was affecting him. He wasn’t getting his way anymore, and shoot, even a CD must have glimpses of his mistakes, although the party line at this point is that he was not able to make a career for himself in medicine in this country because of his national origin. Oh well, what can you do with someone that is like that? Nothing.

      My mother was very narcissistic. When she grew older and sicker and I was the only sibling that would help her she became worse…it was like when she was under a lot of pressure from work, and a divorce, then another divorce that she showed the worst signs. So, at least for her, pressure of any kind, like illness, would bring out the worst in her. If everything was going her way she could be quite charming. It is so sad to love someone that is so very black and white, all or nothing type of person. Funny, she never mentioned that her other children weren’t around when she grew old. Guess she convinced herself they would have but for….

      Theresa Maria

      1. Theresa Marie,

        Good for you not “friending” your ex who is really not a friend. You can, however, snoop on a person’s Facebook page if they don’t have security measures. But I do think there is a way to check who is snooping on your page. Hey, if I can keep my big mouth shut and not respond to my STBX ‘s emails, anyone can. It sure does take restraint. But I’m so glad I did not respond, and you should feel glad that you don’t have that ex back in your life through Facebook.


        Teresa K, why would he want you to look?

        Ignore, ignore, ignore!

        Stay strong!

        1. TheresaK
          So glad to hear from you, I was wondering how you were. I have not been well, but feeling better today. Believe me stress can kill you.
          The others are right do not respond to him he is your X, all he means is to drain more life from you.

          I know it is easy for another to give advise and tell you to stop feeling but we have been there. It is easy for me to say Theresa don’t look but Theresa if you said to me BTOV don’t look, stay away I would think her heart doesn’t feel my pain, or the guilt, or the loneliness and the guilt and the struggle to let go. Theresa we have felt your pain, we are not the outsiders like your friends, family and doctors who have not truly understood the sadness and betrayal and so much more.

          Do not look on Facebook, disconnect, come here and vent and talk your guts out. We all care. Let him go, I have to let mine go too, and its so painful, don’t add to the pain and torment yourself. You got this far and I know how difficult a road it must have been.

          You have strength and fortitude and a good heart, we need you more than he does. Let go of the past and forget him, its a ruse to abuse and torment you. Find peace, happiness, and joy.

          Theresa, I speak from my heart, soul,and mind. I may need you in the future to give me advice and to lean on your strength and good judgement and insight. I am from my heart advising you DO NOT EVER look at his Facebook page under any circumstances.

          Gods blessings and take very good care and please let us know how you are doing. Everyone is so caring here.

          1. Hi BTOV,

            This is true of me, i don’t pretend to understand what you all are going through, i couldn’t even begin to know what you are all feeling, i can know ‘mentally’ that it is hell on earth and the tactics employed by these reptoids are enough to make some of you feel like you are going mad!

            But this is not the same as knowing through experiencing, but i’ve heard enough about these disgusting slugs to absolutely know that it is not in Teresa’s best interests to look at that Facebook page, there MUST be a reason he wants her to look; and it’s not a good reason, everything about Narcs screams ‘warning’, and tells you this is a fact!

            I’m looking through the glass at the despair, and remain the outsider, but a caring one:)

    2. Andy
      Great post, a lot of triangulation and crazy making. Isn’t it great you can come here and you KNOW you aren’t nuts. I felt I was talking with one of the ones I have to deal with sometimes now. I want to get as far away as possible. I have read Shrink Man and the women are just as NUTS as the guys. I know of a story of a woman went after the husband with a butcher knife and literally if he hadn’t grabbed her would be dead.

      In the end after all this man put up with her, he was considered the bad guy because she was “Crazy” and he left her and divorced. I understand it is very hard for the guys. Thank you for your input, the perspective from the mans side is very important in this CD epidemic. I believe it is under reported and harder for men to come forward due to stereotyping and the stigmas attached to it. Again, thank you, a very vivid and familiar scenario.

      Blessings and I hope you are well

      1. Thanks BTOV. I am well and should remain so. 🙂

        Nice to know that my ramblings are understood. Living with messed up people (the covert aggressive ones) is hard to put in words. And, even harder to explain to straightforward people who cannot even grasp that there are some who have messed up thinking.

        There certainly is gender stereotyping that makes certain thing more difficult than they really are, but I guess simple rules are effective, for example, bad behavior is bad behavior, call it out loud as it happened, full stop.

  19. Hi All, Btov,

    Thanks for shout out! I have been very exhausted, recovering from flu and having to initiate one complicated business transaction after completing another — all at the same time. Oh moan! Hope you are feeling okay Btov! (and everybody else!)

    So nice to come back and read all the very interesting input to Dr. Simon’s great article. The input also carries so much legitimate anger and sadness.

    These types cause so much suffering. And, by reading all of your remarks here, it is SO clear that their ‘lifestyles,’ of aggression, deception and ego, eventually catch up with them.

    So many former mates of these nasties torture themselves with the idea that they have actually moved on to greener pastures while they, the victims, lie broken and bleeding.

    But if this appears to be the case, it is only ever temporary.

    The predatory parasite who attached to me, many years ago, is now living in poverty, and likely drinking himself to death. This is how many of them end up.

    He had so much going for him. And how did he deploy his creative talent, brains, beauty? Trolling the internet, looking for victims.

    But it backfired and now, of course, as Dr. Simon describes, he is in the business of blaming everything and everybody for his multiple miseries.

    He can no longer charm anybody. He is too pitiful. And the memory of how he was outwitted in a terrible game that he began himself, must prevent him from ever approaching a keyboard again.

    This joker’s life didn’t end with a bang or a whimper, but in a punchline.

    And for the grandiose, this is the worst punishment of all– to become the actual joke. For someone who is all ego, there is nothing left once they realize they have been bested, outwitted, outfoxed by a mere human being.

    So victims and survivors should try to focus on that. There is nothing left for the grandiose, as they age. People are ‘on to them.’

    All that is left for them, is their hobbies — but that’s not as thrilling as playing games with people’s lives and sanity.

    Stamp collecting, in solitude, can’t match the sheer joy the CD grandiose person feels, as they watch someone crumple to the floor, curve into the fetal position and howl in despair.

    Assembling model airplanes can’t compete with the rush of observing the momentary shock and disbelief of a loving target, as they push them off a cliff.

    Of course most of them can only approximate this action, as the extremes of physical sadism don’t manifest for practical reasons…like a desire to stay out of jail. It is more challenging and fun for the extreme grandiose CD to work in ways that might have their targets eventually kill themselves.

    As people with character age, their inner lives deepen and or they have richer relationships with their nearest and dearest. It gives their lives meaning and substance.

    But the grandiose CD? Empty shells casting about, naming, blaming, shaming, always deflecting, never acknowledging, because they MUST be above everybody else. After all, aren’t other people merely dream characters or actors in the various movies they star in — their own lives, in other words?

    How awful, pathetic, pitiful. They meet tragic ends.

    1. LisaO
      I am so glad you are back and it was only the flu, I started to worry and hoped we didn’t lose you. Like I said you are an anchor, your post so full of wisdom and insight. I’ll get back to you tomorrow. Just so glad you are well and back!

      You stay warm and God bless. (Big Hug)

    2. LisaO,

      Several quotable sentences… grandiose compared with mere human being in long run. 😀
      … and for the grandiose, this is the worst punishment of all– to become the actual joke. For someone who is all ego, there is nothing left once they realize they have been bested, outwitted, outfoxed by a mere human being.

      1. This has happened to my STBX, having lost his law license, and when that happens you lose all respect from your peers. So he lashes out on me through this divorce by filing motion after motion after motion attacking my character and anything else he can think of to attack. So here is the big question, why, after reading LisaO’s comments, do I feel sadness for him, while at the same time he is trying to destroy me? I guess it’s just human nature. I don’t know.

        1. Jackie,
          I would think your attorney could ask the judge for sanctions pertaining to all the redundant and frivolous motions. Being there isn’t any merit to the claims and done for spite I would ask that you be compensated for the additional fees intentionally caused by your X’s continuous and contemptuous behavior. The judge should know that, and seeing your X is a former attorney and knows the correct protocol to follow and also when they are playing the system.

          You loved your X and don’t feel foolish that you have these feelings. It is sad to watch someone you truly cared for and loved and for that matter it could be your child. You see the dreams and potential of how they could had used their talents for the betterment of society as a whole. The sad part is we have the ability to forgive and in forgiving and giving it over to God for judgement it releases you. And it is sad for a normal loving person to watch another self destruct. You know the answer, you know the way, but their bull headed false pride refuses to hear. So we watch in sadness the loss of a life we once loved.

          The irony and at same time justice in all this they will bring enough grief, misery and sadness in their lives without you saying one word. Pray for their souls, the Lord says do not cast your pearls to swine and from these kind get away. Good advice. Grieve, he is the father of your child, was part of a good percentage of your life. Its now easy to wipe that away.

          Live your life what is left of it in happiness and peace, give back to this world instead of its all about me and see the joy that comes from giving.

          Your X is sick in his heart, mind and soul and Dr. Simon is right the only way is a come to Jesus moment. But that is his journey and the truth he must search out. Find your truth, yourself, and live. Tuck the memories away in a box of memories, and store them, whatever is best for you.

          Don’t let him make you hate because in doing so you become like him. I am sharing the way I am able to deal with things, sometimes I have to be very tough, called they must suffer the consequences of their behavior. I never negotiate with a terrorist and that is what they are. Never forget they are like a rabid dog, and in their way of thinking revenge is the answer.

        2. Lucy,
          I made a mistake the post to Jackie was for you.

          You feel that way because you loved him and thats OK. I feel the same way, I have a good idea of what and who I am dealing with but there are some extreme complications in my situation I can’t post. You loved and you are genuine and are in touch with a true you, normal people love. In our cases we loved someone who chose to be who they are and really LOST their way. That is why we struggle and feel sad for our loss, its like the grieving we go through when one dies.

          Its the death of a marriage, so many personal parts of us are wrapped up in the significant time we spent the other person. It also is a trauma to our souls, heart and mind to find out how deceived we were by an imposter. Someone, that couldn’t find the courage to be real.

          Lucy, try to put those feelings in a private place and if you need to share that, please do with a safe person. If you look at your life we live different chapters, events happen that change our lives and this is one of them.

          I spent over 50% of my life with this individual, it is not easy to let things go. I say this to you and perhaps, you can help me too. Lets go forward and find our true selves, make the necessary changes to be the best we were intended to be. Like Dr. Simon says to change our society and even if its one at a time. I struggle each day to go forward, but this conversation and blog helps me to understand what I must do.

          Stand strong, find the light and try to never look back. I know it’s hard because the CDN just don’t want to let go. Even though lets all try to make these the best years of our life. (Hugs)

    3. Ohhh the visions i have in my head at your post LisaO, fantastic!

      Nothing left to gaze upon in that pool but their own broken reflection….

      But you said it better than i could!

    4. LisaO and all the Kindred Spirits who have been here and are a part of our community and most of all Dr. Simon,

      I just want to let you all know how important all of you are and how freely you have shared your experiences, has made such a difference in my life. It took me a long time to feel safe to even begin to talk about the CDNP that I have encountered and lived with in my life. So many things that have happened are so outrageous, your worst fear is to tell someone and they either won’t believe you or just wouldn’t care. The rejection is beyond understanding except -HERE.

      All of you bring up such good points, you freely give advice when we are confused and at the end or our rope, direction when we don’t know which way to go, you add clarity to confusion, you share information that is withheld to keep us in the dark, you turn on lights of insight into insanity, you offer love when we feel so alone, words of encouragement to keep one going when we have so little, the happy smiles and hugs of truly knowing our sadness, you share in our grief, and understand our anger and frustration.

      Dr. Simons site is truly a blessing and a place where we can feel accepted and the insanity of our lives is validated. I believe in divine intervention and I believe that miracles do happen. There is so much healing and love here and I feel compelled to say I just humbly thank you all for sharing and giving of yourselves.

      We are a community of empathy filled individuals that understand goodness to uplift the downtrodden which which the CD Grandiose Narcissists has no clue about. The CDN thinks we are idiots and fools for how we feel.

      Interestingly, how they talk about others is really who they are. I am thinking of the CDN and this is a sister who is 7 years younger. As a child she was always about herself, very conniving. I always seen through what she did and as the older one had to correct her. What a sneaky one. As she got older her only use for people was what she could get from them for herself.

      When she married she ran the whole show, how her husband put up with her for so long I don’t know, always cheating on him. She told me she had her children to ensure that she had someone to take care of her in old age. I borrowed this sister money which was never repaid, when the time came for payment she told me to FY that was the end of our relationship.

      Over the years I had to deal with her on a limited basis because I am the POA for my disabled sister. Anyway, the sister divorced her husband and found a bachelor who owns his own home. She moved in with her family and he has supported her since. Going on 20 years, the girls she had had children and two of them still live in the house with the grandchildren. What a Mess, now you know why I understand your story Andy.

      Anyhow, this sis who is 7 years younger looks 7 years older. The most hilarious attribute of this sis is she dresses like a girl of 13 years old. Its like taking Olive Oil from Popeye and she looks like she is 70 and dressing her like a teenager. She absolutely, looks ridiculous. However, she is the Queen Bee.

      Her looks have been gone for many years of drinking, smoking and recreational drugs. The conniving deceitful acts she has always perpetrated are now even more distorted. The sad thing is she groomed her daughters to jump to her every whim. They call her for permission in almost everything they need to do.

      At the time I saw her, it was at a funeral, she talked with me briefly, she asked for me to forgive her, I said I did long time ago but I still wanted my money, for the a brief moment I saw the eyes of death my death in her eyes and then she smiled and went to touch me and I looked at her with confidence and not an ounce of fear and said “I have nothing more to say, Good bye.” Her whole face changed and the only way I can describe her is she looked demonic, and if she could had killed me she would.

      As I write this she looked like she was made up for halloween, I am almost temped to erase this it all sounds so ridiculously insane. I sat two tables behind her and I don’t think she knew I was there, she was loud and I could hear her ranting about me. She looked and sounded like someone from a Boris Karloff insane asylum.

      I briefly talked with one of the daughters and her remark to me was you are nothing like my mom said you were. You are so different. She was a nice girl and my thought was to reach out to her but that would only be trouble for me.

      They become a living picture of the hate and all the distorted sick acts , lies and devilish deeds they committed against humanity. In the end you see the true difference between good and evil. The tragedy is the children and what our society has become as a result of the self absorbed godless blade runners.

      I will ask Gods forgiveness because we are all children of God but when one does not even act like a human and has no regard for the life of another what is it then. This woman-child is shear evil, and her intentions where I am concerned is evil. My mother has even warned me, these individuals are so consumed with hate and Jealousy, they are monstrous in their thoughts, words, and deeds.

      These are what these people are and we must never be sucked in, because they will consume us, and annihilate us without a drop of remorse. As they age there comes a time when they don’t wear the mask anymore, they have no need to hide, they can’t – fake- who they are anymore. They are totally consumed.

      I will always pray for them, I would not want to be in their shoes on judgement day. I would not want to have to live in their heads, its the most horrific place you can imagine. So I am here with the empaths and for that I am grateful.

      I have a lot coming down the pike and will need encouragement and support and hope. I am blessed that I can come here.

      God bless all

      1. BTOV,

        It’s shocking though isn’t it? The fact that you all struggle to get the validation and support of what’s been done to you.

        Triangulation doesn’t explain all of it. I guess it’s like what you were saying, some of their tactics are so fantastical that it sounds like it comes from a novel.

        The strangest book i ever read on them was Hervey Cleckley’s the Mask of Sanity, he painted them as resembling creatures from another planet, doing harm to themselves as much as others; he didn’t delve into the really sadistic ones that commit awful crimes as far as i can recall, except for a shout out to Neville Heath, the 1940’s murderer; an English Walter Mitty who wore medals he didn;t earn.

        That’s why whenever you hear the phrase ‘Cleckley’s Psychopaths’, it means relatively benign ones compared to the complete monsters of say, J Reid Meloy, Hare, Ramsland, Gacono and too many to mention here lol!

        1. I read Mask of Sanity. It was bit technical book, but pretty good. It is only slightly outdated even today.

          In my opinion, most of the “Cleckley’s Psychopaths” will very closely fit the “Dr. Simon’s Character Disturbed individuals”, looking like common miscreants to others and life sucking vampires to close relations.
          Hare’s psychopaths were true extreme cases, criminals actually, the type you never want to meet.
          But, reading about liars described in Peck’s people of the lie was one hair raising experience. Some were truly scary people that lived inside a seemingly normal house.

          While those books are very good, they do not come close to Dr. Simon’s book, when one considers the accuracy of problem description, non-textual treatment and easy to read and understand.

          And, I think, both Cleckley and Peck, failed to label a female character disturbed person accurately. They could not label the patient as psychopath, and probably searched for neurosis where there was none. I am not psychologist, and definitely did not meet those characters in person, but that was the kind of impression I got from the text.

          1. Andy D,

            The Scott Peck book is one i have wanted to read for a long time , and you’re description of it makes me want to buy it NOW!

            I will also have to pick up Dr Simon’s books too. I have read just about everything on this site, but it needs completion.

            You raise a point here though about Cleckley, it’s been a long time since i’ve read it, could it be that the people described there come across as foolhardy clowns with weak emotions because Cleckley didn’t interview the Families? A more sadistic picture would have arisen if he had? I cannot remember if he spoke to them. I will have to re read it.

            Oh yes, Hare’s Psychopaths were the extreme, the Diane Downs section had me stunned, i hope she was/is deeply unhappy for the rest of her life!

            Some sections of the Mask of Sanity were very creepy though, the part where he summarises their inner life, of there being no real person inside, a ghost if you will, those words kept coming back to me for a full week after i read it.

            What do you and others here think of the female Psychopath, some say they are rarer and worse than their male counterparts?

            Have any of you found this to be true?

          2. Jackie,

            Peck’s book is quite good. Very interesting to read.
            Dr. Simon’s book is concise and organized summary of all that you read on this blog. Have it as reference, a single large piece of coherent information on topic.

            “What do you and others here think of the female Psychopath, some say they are rarer and worse than their male counterparts?”
            I read something that stated that females are as aggressive as man. I don’t remember all the details now, but it was public research paper (not sure, maybe just article from expert), so you can try to find it (just a warning, avoid opinionated articles from pseudo-experts that are bit too easy to find on internet). One thing I remember is that it had aggressiveness in more technical term i.e. not caring about others boundaries to reach a goal, and not as physical intimidation or brawling behavior.
            In my opinion, females have evolved around the care-taker role over centuries, and even today they are taught to be empathic from early childhood. Empathy is mostly learned behavior, so less likely that we have female psychopaths. Lack of empathy is just a synonym of narcissism, a key characteristic of sociopath/psychopath. And, the females that really are psychopath, will be very dangerous because of the natural cover of gender association with kindness and gentleness. Besides a female psychopath may probably like to operate in some suitable setup, maybe as a nurse in hospital.
            The number of females that can be labeled character disturbed (same defects as psychopaths, but in lesser degree) is quite good, may be as many as males if we assume gender neutrality of aggressiveness, I guess. But, they mostly operate in family setting. They do go about destroying their near and dears including their own children. But, it is mostly driven by their character, and does not have extreme malignancy that a serial killer will have. Some may be found in official setting too, but professional setting is already competitive landscape, and does not offer as easy environment to operate as a home would.
            PS: All the above is my personal opinion. 🙂

          3. Reposting Jackie’s post in correct thread…

            You are correct, if you can stomach it, look up Vanessa George, an English Nursery Nurse who procured appalling footage of small children on her mobile phone for her Paedophile lover, Colin Blanchard, who was nicknamed ‘billy bullshit’, another Walter Mitty character, sound familiar?

            Because the footage didn’t show the faces of the children, the families don’t know if their children were abused or not, and she isn’t telling.

            Then there’s Beverley Allitt, an English Nurse who killed four kids and tried to kill three more.

            Females are more likely to kill using poison, and for material gain, but then again we have our own Dr Harold Shipman, who killed mainly Women with injections of Diamorphine, but not before he got them to hand over goods via their Wills, so HE killed for material gain, and in a manner more befitting female killers.

          4. Neh Jackie. I don’t want to research about female killer, and their preference to use poison. It make me paranoid. 🙂

            Oh by the way, did I mention, that once my wife said that she learned about poisons during her studies, if she wanted to bump me off, she would have done it long time ago and no one would have suspected it. Now, one specific statement out of context can be made to sound anything, so it is very important to know about context. If her reply was in context from a death threat from me, then it is mostly harmless. But, as far as I recall, she said that as an irrelevant side comment to some other conflicting discussion we were having.
            Oh boy, do I have a psychopath as wife?!

            Something like this is hard to explain and harder to make other understand, especially since her mask is still on in front of others. And, I am the one who is supposed to be fearless hyena with balls of steel in the house. Anyways, jokes aside, one thing I know for sure is that she is an idiot. Reminds me of a fable with moral, better to have a clever enemy than a stupid friend, one at least knows what odds he is facing.

      2. Ha ha 🙂 So, very true about apologies “… she asked for me to forgive her, I said I did long time ago but I still wanted my money, … and if she could had killed me she would.”

        Last time one of my character disturbed apologized, I told him that there is no need to apologize but I will watch his behavior over next 2 years. Even though contact was minimal, but he gave enough hints within a year that apology was phoney.

          1. You are correct, if you can stomach it, look up Vanessa George, an English Nursery Nurse who procured appalling footage of small children on her mobile phone for her Paedophile lover, Colin Blanchard, who was nicknamed ‘billy bullshit’, another Walter Mitty character, sound familiar?

            Because the footage didn’t show the faces of the children, the families don’t know if their children were abused or not, and she isn’t telling.

            Then there’s Beverley Allitt, an English Nurse who killed four kids and tried to kill three more.

            Females are more likely to kill using poison, and for material gain, but then again we have our own Dr Harold Shipman, who killed mainly Women with injections of Diamorphine, but not before he got them to hand over goods via their Wills, so HE killed for material gain, and in a manner more befitting female killers.

        1. AndyD,
          Dumb might be dumb, but don’t underestimate. To me they may do something even more rash without a lot of forethought. See I have had someone say the same thing to me years ago and I let it slide for ignorance. I have never had the thought of wanting someone dead. To me, the shade (the mask)on the CD went up for a moment and they slipped, and the shade went down ever gently. I caught it and they meant, perhaps not at that moment, but they meant it.

          Went I started reading about the CD it is not unusual for them to let something slip, the thought was there otherwise it never would had been said. Don’t want to make you paranoid.

          I believe men are more violent, and women can hide under the guises of motherhood and femininity. There are so man unsolved murders you have no idea and so many unreported deaths thats have looked liked suicides and early deaths. How many do you suspect were helped along. Humanity can be an ugly picture under ones mask. Especially, the CD.

          This world seems to be promoting becoming more tolerant of the worst kinds of behaviors and then excusing it. Woman are hidious creatures too.

          1. BTOV,

            Agree with you. Currently, I certainly do not know the full depth of character problem. And, it will be foolish to underestimate. I do have reasons to label “ability to poison” as a foolish threat attempt, rather than a serious intention. But, one never know.
            One thing for sure, whatever range of thought goes inside ones head, will eventually translate into few verbal comments, and whole gamut of things that gets said verbally will eventually translate into few real nasty piece of work.

  20. Suzi (Jan 27)

    The Jose Marti -quote interests me in that I usually think of hate as an emotion toward someone, who’s legitimately behaved badly or done something terrible to deserve it.

    But apparently someone can say “I hate that guy” without there being those implications at all. It’s like it can be thrown around so casually to mean “dislike”.

    Or perhaps someone can have a private definition of someone else deserving hate that doesn’t have anything to do with violating legitimate social rules, needs and boundaries. For example, hating someone just because they’re black, Jew, gay, transsexual, cisheterosexual, not-wanting-to-adopt-a-trendy-persecuted-victim-mentality(like it seems to be amongst some groups), not-of-the-same-particular-tribe(again, cults, fundamentalist sects, gangs and obviously hate grous) or just not agreeing completely with a hater. Yup, I just used the word so drained of its meaning nowadays by Internet slang, ‘hater’.

    Do predatory people have their own brand of hate then? Some kind of cold, ‘rational’ type?

    1. Timothy,
      What is the definition of hate. I absolutely hate the word hate, the word is used loosely and rather ambiguous depending on who is using it. In relation to the CD that I have observed to hate something or someone is to annihilate it. If they “hate” a certain thing they want nothing to do with it and out of their site and if possible the best solution is to destroy it so it never comes back.

      To them if they could decide your fate the majority of people would be destroyed, you are wasting useful resources except for them and whom they believe should live.

      If you serve no useful purpose to them the end game is to destroy the object of their hate and to kill it, make sure it doesn’t move or breath. They are ruthless, and never forget a slight and revenge is always a thought away. They enjoy watching another suffer, they are as cold hearted as a reptilian boa constrictor squeezing your life breath from you and swallowing you alive.

      They have no Conscience, no guilt, no shame, never underestimate them.

      Many do burn out in old age, they are starved off and many their deranged mind wanders further into to a world of their own. For others they are as mean and nasty till the day they die. Hateful and resenting that their life is over and blaming everyone and everything for their miserable representation of humanity.

    2. Timothy, read Robert Hare’s Without Conscience, he describes Psychopathic anger as ‘Cold Displays’, they are not really raging, it’s just another tactic to get what they want.

      He gives vignettes in that book of this happening; how they quickly and completely change into that friendly, reasonable ‘guy’ once the display is over.

      Since the line between Narcs and Psychopaths are very slim, i’m wondering if they ever really get angry.

      Since emotion in the Primary Psychopath is weak, i’m guessing ANY emotional state wouldn’t be felt strongly, including rage.

      Some of you here describe this ‘rage’, so more info on this would be useful, it probably depends on the type you are dealing with.

      I honestly don’t know.

    3. Timothy: “usually think of hate as an emotion”

      Yes, both love and hate is an emotion, a feeling, they are passions. There’s a fine line between love and hate. The opposite of love is not hate – it’s indifference.

      Timothy: “But apparently someone can say “I hate that guy” without there being those implications at all. It’s like it can be thrown around so casually to mean “dislike”.” “Or perhaps someone can have a private definition”

      I agree. Often times the word ‘dislike’ is the correct word to use. English is a difficult language to master because we not only misuse words but there are times when one word has several definitions. I don’t think that there is a private definition. Misusing words also has a lot to do with poor grammar and language skills. I often have a difficult time with choosing proper words.

      In reference to the quote: “Humanity is divided into two groups — those who love and build and those who hate and destroy.” — Jose Marti

      Nothing wrong with having negative emotions. If one has built a strong character, then the skills of handling negative feelings is meshed into our daily lives. It’s hard work and the path is a difficult to travel.

      If hate, as with all negative emotions isn’t dealt with properly then it can lead a character disordered person further down a destructive path – a dark journey to indifference – the lack of a healthy conscience – the seared heart. It’s easy work and the path is easy to travel.

      So love builds and multiplies and hate destroys and divides.

      Timothy: “Do predatory people have their own brand of hate then? Some kind of cold, ‘rational’ type?”

      Yes, it’s called indifference.

      1. Or maybe a psychopath’s “hate” is contempt, disgust and disdain for those, who do have a conscience.

        And perhaps an extremely disturbed character, even if not a psychopath, can start to hate someone, who doesn’t give them what they want.

  21. LisaO (Jan 27)

    I hear you saying that such a person ends up burning out. Would you go more into detail about why that could be?

    1. Just a quick reply before LisaO answers in more detail, the brainwaves slow down and maturity developes, only later than the rest of us.

      The core features of the disorder remains though.

      Hare mentions Burn Out in detail, you can find it on the net.

      1. Well I have a live one, a real fire cracker, I think if I waited for a burnout with all the energy displayed I would be long gone. I know one thing, when I understood the rages and never reacted anymore, I did this with the one sis 30 years ago already and she literally hated me more that I didn’t react. When you don’t show fear it creates doubt and they like to be in control and in charge, I find it does enrage them more, they are more cautious then in their dealings with you.

        I noticed slight tells too, when they were really angry, such as a twitch in a facial muscle or they may tightened their hand. You have to study them well. Many times it is for only a moment, the really intelligent and dangerous ones are very controlled. Paul Ekart writes about facial and body language. They do have tells.

        Years ago, when I was a child I began to read the body language of the people in my environment, I had no idea about this relationally to the psychodynamics of a persons behavior as I do now. I just enjoyed watching people. I suppose it was a necessary tool in surviving the N’s in my life. I knew when my teacher was going to explode. Kids would ask me how I knew, I would always watch them, some you could see it building up.

        In some of them there is something in their eyes that change too, they appear to change colors, darken and it can be very creepy. When I was a child I had a praying mantid and the eyes will change colors when they sleep. Fascinating, but the behavior of this insect later in life came to mind many times in dealing with certain individuals.

        1. BTOV,

          Just reading about body language, i have The Book of Tells by Peter Collett and Emotions Revealed by Paul Ekman saved in my watch list on eBay.

          You mention the eyes darkening, Ted Bundy’s eyes went black during questioning when he felt pressured, and i have heard of this many times before, but unlike you, never actually seen it.

          Considering the older reptilian part of the brain is more important in Psychopaths, the fact that you liken some of these people to a preying mantis is chilling indeed!

          The pauses in everyday language like uh, ahs and mmm is used a lot more frequently in speech by these people apparantly, it’s been described as ‘putting ON the mask of sanity’ as they have to think harder as they talk as they are usually lying of course.

          In addition, check for inconsistencies in language, things like “i have never once tried marijuana, it made me ill”, or “Always try to complete your studies, but it IS a waste of time”.

          This is because Psychopaths and Narcs as well probably use both sides of the brain to process language, whereas we only use one side, the left i think:)

          BTOV you’ve hit on one of my favourite subjects with these people….

          You could probably spot one easily in most cases, sounds like you are truly surrounded by them.

          1. Ekman also has a book called Telling Lies. I will get more titles to you later. You have provided ones I haven’t read also. Thank you

            If I have time later I will tell you of someone else. Some are so devious and comfortable in their skins it can be very difficult. Especially the ones Dr. Simon speaks of that tell 99% of the truth and leave out the 1%. These people can be very difficult to spot and catch because they know just the 1 small piece they left out that changes the whole stories truth.

  22. BTOV,

    Looking forward to those titles, as i am your description of that other person you know.

    You spoke about lists of books and videos, i will make one and post it up.

    The LoveFraud site is a good one, there is more so will come back. Another book i am interested in is The Psychopath Next Door by Martha Stout, there are some criticisms of it on Amazon, but i would still like to read it.

    1. Jackie,
      Am multi tasking on several fronts. Not quite sure about the other person i know, if you don’t mind refreshing my memory.

      I think scientific research is discovering new information all the time and at a give time definitive answer is concluded to be the standard.

      You see I don’t quite agree that CDNP don’t feel hate. I believe many do and they experience feelings of repulsion and other feelings that compel them to kill. It is not a known science when so many of these pathological liars are such slippery chameleons and many having extremely high IQ’s do have the ability to remember their lies with photographic memories and their control underestimated. What did Hitler feel?

      Andy raises a good point in what consideration was used in the testimonies and information about these individuals by the families that could shed more light on the inner depth, habits and workings of these individuals. At least the work that has been done so far gives us a guide to go by.

  23. BTOV,

    It was your reply of the 29th at, you said you would tell me of someone else, it was the reply where you talked about Ekman’s book Telling Lies.

    Yes i wondered about the information from the families in Cleckley’s book, did he interview them, is this the reason why the Psychopaths in that book come across as mild nutters mostly.

    I think it very much depends on the type of Psychopath as to whether they feel hate, who knows, in future they may well discover large varients, i think they are finding this out now actually.

    Hope you are well BTOV, stay strong:)

    1. Jackie,

      “… why the Psychopaths in that book come across as mild nutters mostly”.
      Describing impact on family was not focus of the book. Also, book covered psychopaths, not serial killer. Later is a rare breed.
      Psychopath is very loosely used term, it got closely associated with serial killers due to media, movies etc.

      Cleckley used psychopaths to define individuals wearing “mask of sanity”, people that pretend to behave like normal people, but had very different and socially deficient way of thinking. He covered the more common cases. He also was not descriptive enough about the impact, there is a huge difference in reading “his drinking and gambling wrecked havoc in his family”, and getting a descriptive details about what it likes to be living with such character under same roof.

      1. Andy D,

        That’s my point Andy D, he should have interviewed Family as the depth of their dysfunction is hidden and makes them appear more benign than they really are.

        I can’t personally stand the equation in the media with serial killers as psychopaths, some are of course, many of them are not.

        Cleckley wanted to meet Bundy personally, don’t know if he did.

        1. Meant to add that by not knowing how these people treat their families, Cleckley wouldn’t know how devious, cruel, selfish they can be.

          I remember the book as painting a picture of them as very strange, with weak emotions, nothing moving them, nothing effecting them for good or ill. Wishy washy almost, which is not true is it.

          1. Completely agree with you Jackie.

            Book projected them as strange, shallow emotions & faking things, impervious to anything sensible, wishy washy individuals.
            Had Cleckley fully integrated stories of their family, he might have painted a more ominous looking picture.

          1. Hi Suzi,

            Oh yes, the famous last ditch attempt by Bundy to get a stay of Execution, lol!

            Wasen’t he revolting in that footage? Trying to blame it on pornography. As i recall in his case, when police checked out his home they found stacks and stacks of cheerleader magazines not hard core porn.

            BTOV mentioned micro expressions, boy, were there a lot of them during the interview, especially when he was asked to talk about 12 year old Kimberley Leach.

            He came across as pretentious as well. I don’t know why the press called him charming, and the boy next door, in all the footage i’ve seen, he acts like a creep, and the video where he comes out of the lift in his jumpsuit and challenges the man reading his charges, he looks terrifying, especially that part where he eyes up the press.

            As for his final bargaining tactics, offering to tell the Families where other bodies were in exchange for a few Months longer was regarding as so despicable that even the Families refused to have anything to do with it!

      2. Andy D,

        You were talking about your Wife earlier, am i reading your post correctly? She’s dangerous??

        Oh my god Andy!

        1. Jackie,

          Yes. I was talking about my wife.

          And, yes. She is dangerous. Not sure if she is maliciously and intentionally dangerous, aka psychopath. But foolish friends even in their friendly mode are dangerous, in some cases more than smart enemies. Foolish friend with animosity are manifold dangerous. Foolish spouse, well …

          And, she is few hundred kilometers away since quite some time. Otherwise, I would not have been able to think clearly, but thanks to physical separation, books, this blog. Once in while she tries to sneak in after saying that we must not rake up past, and forgive “each other” for all the wrong things done. I am thinking of getting few things in writing, in black and white, something that is legally tenable, before considering that she may have changed. I know future doesn’t look bright, but there won’t be any compromise either from me, when it comes to bad behavior, and if that means separation, so be it.

          1. Andy D,

            So sorry to hear this, at least you are not under the same roof as her. Hopefully with all your reading you can piece things together enough to decide what to do for the best, but the fact that she has forced you to introspect is a big warning.

            Getting things down in writing is an excellent idea, please do it!

            She must show that she has changed first, she has no right to ask you both to forgive each other, see what she did there?

            As Dr Simon says, a person who is truly contrite would not ask this of you, and they would be patient, they would want nothing more than to know that you are at ease and happy with becoming a partnership again.

            I wish you all the best Andy, you are doing the right thing.

          2. Thanks for validation Jackie.
            I do have my things written down. I want same from her and her cohorts. Very unlikely, it will happen. One might have done it, but 3 of them together against a mere human being (as put by LisaO I think), no chance!

          3. I’m sorry I have not followed this whole thread, but when I see talk about someone “changing” I just don’t believe a person with bad character will change. I think they lack fundamental emotions and values that makes them difficult if not impossible to be a good life mate with. It isn’t a struggle to do the right thing and to be a good, kind person. If you have good character, it just comes naturally. People with bad character are not worth the effort, in my opinion, to have a meaningful relationship with. That’s just my opinion. I’m married to a miserable CD and going through hell to get a divorce. These people bring misery to others.

    1. Tim,

      Yes i’ve seen this study, i don’t know how to do links here but a Frontiers study had a look at the earlier findings in your link and concluded that “An fMRI study of affective perspective taking in individuals with Psychopathy: imagining another in pain does not evoke empathy.

      I have the link saved so will give more info about where to find it if the above url doesn’t work.

      To enjoy another’s pain you would need a type of empathy, otherwise why hurt others and in worse cases, commit sadism.

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