Narcissistic Characters
Narcissistic characters of various types are everywhere these days. But not all people with narcissistic characteristics are “disordered.” Now, this might seem a curious assertion to some. But not everyone possessing some narcissism is a narcissist. Further, not all narcissists are alike. Some narcissitically-inclined individuals are actually less harmful than others. And for many reasons it’s become harder than ever to define when someone’s degree of narcissism reaches the level of a true “disorder.” (See: Personality Disorders Are Increasingly Difficult to Define.)
Narcissism is a quality of character present in several personality types. And everyone has a personality. Fortunately, few folks have a personality so dyfunctional that they can’t function. But these days, too many folks have a personality that makes relating healthily to others a real challenge. And when the narcissism in someone’s character is of a certain type and/or degree, it can lead to a lot of relationship distress.
Narcissistic characters run the gamut, from relatively benign “amorous,” “charming,” types to heartless and predatory types. Each is different in the kinds of relationships they form and damage they can do. That said, it’s also always a matter of degree. Even some seemingly benign “charmers” can have more nefarious aspects to their character.
See also: Amorous Narcissists Can Charm Convincingly and Predators Among Us: The Psychopaths
“Disordered” Narcissistic Characters
While traditional definitions don’t serve us well these days, some narcissistic characters are rightfully considered disordered. And making this distinction has definite implications. Folks with true personality disorders are notoriously resistant to change and difficult if not impossible to treat. But the spectrum of narcissism has become so vast and varied it’s hard to tease these matters out reliably. So, one’s safest bet is to be wary of narcissism in whatever fashion or degree you see it.
The most disordered narcissists can’t help but leaving a telltale trail behind them. While they might offer a litany of excuses, their troubled and failed past relationships often speak for themselves. Narcissists will blame others. But actions speak louder than words. And if you bother to properly scruitinze past happenstances without accepting excuses for them – especially those excuses that only point the finger at others – you’re much more likely to uncover a pattern of use and abuse. And that’s how you know it’s best to move on!
Character Matters
I’ll have more to about the vast spectrum of narcissistic characters on upcoming podcasts of the New Character Matters program. And I’ll have an announcement soon on the first live when I can take calls in real time. In the meantime, feel free to forward questions you want given some detailed attention on the program by using the Contact feature. And you can find information about the vast spectrum of character dysfunction in my book Character Disturbance. You can access Episode 3 – All About Narcissism Pt. 1 here.
Hello there, how you doing? i want to share a story of alice in wonderland technique;
i grew up in a narc family , with norms to follow your family promoting tribalism, early stages in my childhood with changing of parents and sexual abuse i developed neurosis, Multiple personality disorders by the cause of childhood neurosis, then later on my life i get into deductive reasoning, conspiracy theories, i was like a perfect prey for my exploiters , they studied my personality and how i’m influenced , even though they used what we call in our religion a personal spirit to read my thought patterns, then they set up further tricks in my life with controlled environment inducing trauma, to enhance my vulnerabilities like anxiety of future, given that my thought pattern was being studied, learned hopelessness, killing self esteem for the knowledge i was studying about the problem i stumbled upon to dr george by searching the problem . discovered my own disorganized thinking patterns, they set up the game like CIA do the alice in wonderland technique to induce cognitive dissonance i have been studying dr george simon it helped me a lot but i’m at the point of selective amnesia and fague where they will change my personality, i’m in a state where only thinking matters, they follow me everywhere,
I’m in a developing country where everyone can be purchased , my father is behind all this, he is in canada , i live in pakistan there is a huge difference of currency , status of the country,. now, this situation requires me to be neurotic but they are able to twist this as well to their own advantage . should i be the light i want to shine or should i make it like this,
ok that was past i’m not going back, i gotta think about future, without catastrophizing about it, make my tasks to little pieces that would cure my neurosis as i perceive okay if i think that , that would happen, i’m living under this psychological game right now. and facing them each day. i want some expert advice in my case and proper interventention because they can reach everywhere to every psychologist i reach , the problem is this developing country,
i gone through marriage and divorce and my buttons were pushed each day to their advantage so to perceive that a trauma.
i can treat my neurosis, but with the intervention of affirmations and guidance.
the internal audience is theirs too . their main end goal is to abide by them and go on to their path. change my personality and never be a confident person.
what should you suggest guys? how to get out of this jam?
It is challenging to figure out what is considered disordered today when it seems that are “norms” are eroding very quickly. Horrible behavior is becoming normalized. Our children are watching and learning.
My neighbor is a teacher and if I knew back when she moved in what I know now, I would have kept my distance. She’s a manipulative bully. Her deceased father was high up in the UAW and her mother pays for everything, including her home (she’s 45). If she does not get her way she retaliates and bullies. She told me many times early in our relationship that members of her family said she was mean and a bitc&. (Back then I didn’t realize what a big fat warning THAT was!)
I said no to her wanting to extend the fence beyond the standard length, she was pissed and went to do it anyway. Then she had them dump the fence they removed on my property. When I called her on it, she told me it was my problem, to call them myself. Then she played the victim and asked for her key back.
I put my foot down and now she’s playing games keeping her gate open and propped on my property. Put up a stake to block the gate from coming into my yard. She moved it! We did that for a few days and then I went out when I saw her doing it and told her to stop it, that it’s my property and she doesn’t have that right. She started grilling me about why it was a problem for me, mocking me. She said, I know you think I’m a bully. I said yes, you are a bully. Then she threatened to put up a temporary fence so I can’t get into my side yard. I reminded her that was illegal. Then she said with a big smile, I’ll put a bench there and you won’t be able to get in. I shrugged, realizing she wanted to upset me. Then she said she would call the police if I step one foot on her driveway. I said, okay, go ahead.
We’ll see what she does. It’s such a sad waste of time and energy. Normally I would have let it go, but I’ve realized that’s exactly what they count on.
Of the many things I’ve learned on how to spot them early is:
Say no early in the relationship and see how they respond.
Pay attention early and trust your gut if it feels off.
When they show you/tell you who they are, believe them and do not fool yourself that you’ll be the exception. Then back away.
If they threaten you, if possible, call their bluff or just do not respond and do what’s in your best interest. Then ask yourself if you really want to be in a relationship with someone who threatens you.
I used to make red flags into yellow flags and I didn’t fully trust my gut/judgement. I know better now.
Looking forward to the new podcast!
Good advice. I have a neighbor that I’m not sure about as well. I live alone so I think they can take more advantage because I am a woman than they would with a man, at least it seems to be the case often. I try to get along but with this kind the only getting along is doing things their way.
I think that’s true about being a woman alone, they think they can take more advantage. Especially if they sense you want to get along and/or do not like confrontation.
Spot on – but with this kind the only getting along is doing things their way.
I’ve consciously chosen to change the way I approach/respond with new people, especially people I’ll be forced to interact with over a long time. I’m not quite as friendly and take much longer to get to know them. I also make sure if they cross a boundary to bring it up calmly and firmly right away. Lots of these folks test early and often to see what they can get away with and how pliant you are.
Absolutely true. I have not been overly friendly with them because I had a “proceed with caution” flag up. I don’t like confronting, thats absolutely true and something I am working on. Their fence gate swings onto my side lawn and I have to move it to cut the grass and I told myself its ok, its not hurting anything, but I am not listening to my gut because it tells me they need to fix that. I think I will prop something up there to stop it and see if they move it. I don’t want to be anybody’s doormat and I need to stand up for myself, especially because since I live alone.
Good for you! Their response will tell you everything you need to know!
If you like, let me know it it goes.
I don’t like confrontation either and I’ve noticed that’s been a major source of my being chosen to prey on. Been flexin’ those muscles and it’s getting less scary each time. I’ve also noticed that I get so excited afterward and get a boost of self-regard. Definitely way overdo.
Liz,
You are right in saying listen to what they tell you early on. I’ve heard it said too that People tell you what they’re going to do, Listen! That is so true as well.
We had neighbors LOOONG ago tell us what jerks they were to their old neighbors??? They’re actual words!!!
Then they proceeded to be jerks to us. Needless to say I did not back down and generally I won the fight! Yes, they declared war on us for years, but as I said I did not back down and eventually they did. (They were constantly breaking proprerty boundaries)
Pray, and fight right, legally and protectively!!! Don’t raise your voice, or curse and claim victory as you go on!
We NEVER broke their boundaries, EVER!
Priscilla,
Good for you! It does my heart good to hear of people sticking up for themselves and it working out well.
Great points!
They do tell you what they’re gonna do. My neighbor actually said that since she was paying for the fence (it was for her benefit only), she could do whatever she wanted. And then she proceeded to act as if she could.
Great advice to fight right. If you learn what your rights are and protect them without resorting to being abusive/boundary violating yourself, and bring in the law/city when required, you have the best chance of holding your own. Thoroughly document/take pictures. They will try to bait/provoke you to sink to their level/break the law so they can claim you are the problem.
They will also accuse you of what they are doing.
She told me I was passive aggressive (for putting the stake in to block the gate), then proceeded to tell me she was going to put up a little fence so I couldn’t get in my yard or a bench to block me. Yeah, I’m the passive aggressive one.
She’s left the gate alone, but has decided she’s going to bring her car in between the houses at night and turn up the radio very loud so when she gets up early in the morning and starts the car, it’s blaring. She leaves it loud. She done this the last few nights. Last night her car alarm went off for a good 10 minutes in the middle of the night. Not sure if that was intentional or not, but I wouldn’t put it past her! 🙂
It’ll be interesting to see if the neighbors start to complain/when she gets tired of the game. Got my ear plugs and determination.
Speaking of fences, I believe there was a neighbor who complained about an unpainted fence and so the other neighbor proceeded to paint the side of the fence, facing the complaining neighbor, in multiple colors, using discarded, junked paint cans to do it. It was hideous, which was the point.
Too bad the a-holes of society can’t be expelled to a designated continent where they can all be nightmare neighbors to each other. But they’d invade and war and refuse to stay put because the whole point is to cause trouble for peaceful people. Evil hates good, as good *rightfully* hates evil
Something I’ve learned from dealing with aggressive, character disturbed people is they often create drama, issues and fights. I think it’s because they get bored and they need an outlet, a target to displace their aggression. The issues with the neighbors discussed reminds me of the ‘fun’ they’re having relieving their boredom and gaining a position of tactical superiority. I can just picture them bragging to co-workers the next installment of ‘neighbor’ wars and how they won the battle. I remind myself often (as its a struggle) to be boring. There is no payoff for boring unless they view the boring as a particularly delicious challenge. They will eventually give up though.
And they really do relish in creating drama and strife. I find that even being boring doesn’t stop them. Haven’t had any give up and eventually stop. Doesn’t work. The much touted “grey rock” technique doesn’t stop them. Only distance and departure, and even then, it may not work.
Hi, Grey Rock, I’m not touting the Grey Rock theory because, you are correct, it often doesn’t work. But, if you have to engage, be as calm, rational and boring as possible to not add into the drama does help. Not defending yourself, trying to convince them or hoping for a compromise and certainly not getting angry and fighting with them does help.
Listening to whatever nonsense they spew and not interrupting does help. I have found, just listening to them, showing a neutral expression, giving a nod at the end of their rant (pointedly looking at my watch if the rant is taking too long) and stating I see how they feel and walking away is often successful. I then do what I need to do. In the case of a fence it might be getting a survey, calling county officials or filing a report with the HOA.
They may not go away completely but at the very least it’s much less of a payoff for them. They absolutely hate, despise and are repelled by being the loser in an exchange. Basically being unimportant, marginalized, treating them in the way they do to everyone else to gain power. My experience, they’ll avoid you like the plague if you beat them at their own game. The trick is not lose your dignity, to not stoop to their level as you do it.
I think of the grey rock as doing most of what you suggested. Calm, confident, self-assured – not allowing yourself to be provoked. Often they are stunned by your lack of reaction – not taking the bait.
That’s been my experience too, quite often they do not want to deal with you and go for easier targets that don’t have their number.
The neighbor in this discussion when she realized she wasn’t going to intimidate me and/or bait me into stooping to her level, turned her back on me and walked away from me dismissively.
She’s really worked up though. She installed a motion sensor camera on the gate/my yard/her driveway. And, passive aggressively, placed her very large garbage cans across the threshold to my property (where she said she’d put the little fence/bench – so I cannot access my property because of a large shrub that blocks the other way. I don’t really need to access the side yard for anything, it’s no maintenance. I personally don’t get the bee in her bonnet, but that’s her choice. I think it’s a “how dare you set a limit on me” rage of a 3 year old.
Terrible neighbors seem to love recording their neighbors. Hopefully things stay low-level.
It’s out of our control if they are adamant about escalating things.
That’s what sucks. You can do your best and they can still keep at it. What a time and energy suck dealing with terrible people.
boring grey rock,
Think she may be escalating all by herself…
It’s bizarre. I’ve done nothing, zip, no reaction/response to her shenanigans (I laughed out loud a couple of times in the house, but she couldn’t see/hear that). She’s added a bicycle locked to the open gate, a cable locking the two large bins together and a BBQ locked to those. In addition to backing her car in so I can’t get by there. With the latest additions, I’m truly starting to wonder about her mental health.
I know they like to provoke, but I do wonder sometimes if they also think we (and everyone else) are just as twisted (competitive?) as they are.
I know I shouldn’t, but I feel a bit bad for her. But as Charlie pointed out, she’s likely enjoying this – whatever this is for her.
I read somewhere that narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths feel pleasure in seeing sad faces and that sociopaths and psychopaths feel pleasure in seeing scared faces.
I once tried to get enough botox to ensure my forehead didn’t move so my sociopathic ex couldn’t get the usual pleasure in my terrorized face. Talk about nuts!
Nobody needs botox! Especially if you do it to try and keep your sociopath from deriving even more pleasure in your terror and fear. Keep those needles away from your faces!
boring grey rock,
So sorry you had to deal with that and felt the need to protect yourself in that way. It’s understandable. It’s such a horrible nightmarish reality and one must often think outside the box!
Hi, Liz,
Your neighbor sounds ‘fun.’ And my, oh my persistent. That’s why I don’t tout the ‘Grey Rock’ method. It over simplifies the complexity of the pathology. It’s a struggle to appear calm and self confident when you’re body is screaming ‘this person is deranged’ and you’re feeling freaked out. You have a good attitude about your troubled neighbor. Be patient and stick with it, she will eventually give up the provoking behavior.
I also agree with your three year temper tantrum analogy. No is a completely unacceptable word to use against them.
And, yes, they do believe everyone is as twisted (competitive) as they are. I have found they have a repetitive, mental rant to accompany their actions. Strangely, she’s probably having mental conversations with you, imagining your reactions, and anticipating your responses to the point reality has become confused for her. It never ceases to amaze me how powerful their ‘bad talk’ is and how they confuse what’s in their head with what actually happens. From my experience, i’ve learned that it is disorienting to these characters to have an opposite reaction than they’ve assigned to you. You mentioned you hid your laughter at how ridiculous she’s being, I stopped doing that when I realized showing a reaction completely different has a disorienting, confusing effect. Now I’m not saying she won’t retaliate but I’ve learned more often than not they’ll back down, back away.
I’ve also struggled with why I’m so often a target. What I’ve realized is my kindness is the number 1 reason. They are both attracted to kindness and repelled by it. I think they want it for themselves but it also shows them how ‘off’ they are. I think kind people causes them to feel bad about themselves, it’s disempowering to them. I could achieve more with kindness than my soon to be ex husband could with ‘strength’ and that just ticked him off completely. He couldn’t understand it. He said he ‘worked so hard to make people like him’ and I just did it effortlessly. He said that I could get anyone to do anything for me (not true) without ‘lifting a finger’ and he had to work for it (manipulate.)
It is sad and on one level I do feel bad for him that he is incapable of understanding the power of ‘good’: kindness, reciprocity, empathy, truth, loyalty. In his mind, these are weaknesses not strengths. On another level, I’m horrified and afraid of this alien in a human body. It’s a tough balance and added to seeing so many people with the same attitudes and behaviors. It’s daunting.
Evildoers don’t want kindness for themselves. They are not jealous or envious of your kindness. To predatory folk, kind-hearted people are but “suckers” and it’s fun and entertaining for them to harm you.
Evil hates good. The wicked hate the righteous. Children of satan are always going to hate children of God.
They understand goodness and pro-social values and orientations. They have contempt for it, not desire or envy. It is contempt and disdain and most certainly not any inability to understand.
Everyone should disabuse themselves of these misconceptions. I held some of them at times, due to bad teachings, and I hope others disabuse themselves of such faulty notions immediately as such lead victims/targets to be even more vulnerable to harm and abuse.
Evildoers hate goodness. Evildoers hate decency. Evildoers have hatred and contempt and spite for do-gooders and upright folks. It is not jealous, inability to understand, envy, or anything other than hatred and contempt.
boring grey rock,
I agree with you that there are those who are simply predators, and are evil. I worked for a psychopath.
However, I think there are, like with most things, degrees of character disturbance. I believe when we think in black and white terms like that, we are doing ourselves and others a disservice.
Do I think my neighbor is evil? No, I personally think she’s an emotionally immature, entitled boundary violator that needs strong boundaries/consequences.
Consider all she has done thus far. Compare it to your list of what you’ve done to her. Consider how long she has been your neighbor. Not long at all, right?
Bad neighbors don’t get better, they continue being bad neighbors. That’s my experience. And the longer the exposure, the more things they’ll have done to you.
I think she is evil. She is not a child. She isn’t mentally disturbed to the point of disability and inability to function. Don’t infantilize her. Don’t disregard the morality/character continuum. She is going out of her way to mess with you.
Perhaps you wish to downplay it or trivialize it because it makes it more palatable to you to believe such. Moving is tough. Selling a house is tough. Nobody wants to admit they have evil living next door. But she doesn’t scream “goodness” and “uprightness” and “lovingkindness” now does she?
I hope she stays low level. Sorry you didn’t get a better neighbor.
boring grey rock,
Interesting points. I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. As I do think there is grey area between mentally disturbed to point of disability and evil. As you say there is a morality/character continuum. I would say she is character disordered for sure. But I do not believe that all character disordered people are evil, or, if they are, it’s grades/degrees of evil. Maybe that’s it. Thinking out loud….
I’m interested in your comment about infantilizing her. That’s an interesting thought, one I never had. Is it infantilizing to accept that a person is acting like a child yet still hold her accountable for her actions? I don’t think it is. But I’m certainly open to hearing your/others thoughts on it (Dr. Simon?). I’m sincerely interested in learning.
She certainly doesn’t scream goodness, uprightness and loving kindness, that’s for sure!
Thank you, me too. She mentioned she was going to be moving in a year or two (she was trying to make me feel guilty for standing up to her…didn’t work).
Happy Easter
Liz,
Perhaps you are right. I’m thinking of bad neighbors I had and how it started off seemingly lower-level but they were evil, horrible, destructive criminals all along.
Let’s hope she moves! And good job at deflecting that aim of false guilt of hers about moving since you stood up to her.
A very happy Easter to you, Liz! He is risen!
Hi, boring grey rock,
I’ve been where you are, I’ve experienced the grief and anger at truly acknowledging ‘evil’ walks along side us and isn’t easily recognizable. They strip the safety from your world, the ability to trust others, recognize good from bad people and worse yet strip away your ability to trust yourself. They turn character strengths like kindness, trust, respect, loyalty, empathy into character weaknesses, flaws and faults.
Taking a hard line while your processing, grieving and struggling to protect yourself is smart. Taking a hard line when the individual can still envoke emotional empathy is also smart and very necessary. At some point, though, when the pain and distress, the embarrassment and shame, the fear and the trauma starts to fade you start to see how sad their life really is. How unable they are to partake in the true joys of life: emotional intimacy, relationships, connections, and bonds. Of course, they don’t see the sad state of their life as they too busy trying to convince themselves and others how they’re an entitled victim or get over on people but you start to see it.
As you start to see it, at least moments of peace and well being come back. I think my ability to pity him without emotionally connecting or empathizing indicates to me that I’m healing. I can feel bad for him without wanting to help him, fix things or sacrifice some part of myself to ‘rescue’ him from his bad thoughts, beliefs or actions. I think ‘that’s a sad state of affairs’ when he’s facing the consquences of his behavior because he has no power, no control over me anymore. And, as I’m letting go of my hard lines, I’m starting to remember who was I before, how I thought before and becoming more confident and more trusting in myself.
I can certainly say the path to healing is not a straight line and I know the healed me will have some differences with some awareness I didn’t have before but he’s taken enough from me and I’m not going to permit him to take away anymore.
He and other monsters do indeed have a fabulous life by society’s worldly standards. No distress or discomfort is being suffered.
But at some point they’ll die and then they’ll answer to God. Their eternal home will repay them for their wickedness.
It’s Good Friday. A person is either of the LORD or of satan. It’s a binary. No shades of grey and nuance.
Happy Easter to those who know Jesus to be LORD.
I really appreciate your kind and encouraging words, Charlie. I don’t believe I’ll ever be healed or will ever recover, such is the extent of the damage, ruination, and trauma.
I’m glad you’re recovering, though.
It’s hard to see the grey when we’re suffering but there are people who are neither good nor bad. They may not participate in the harm of another but they’ll look away or justify, they’ll not protect or defend good from evil whatever their reasons. We seem to be living in a time of extremes, a time when everyone has to pick one side over the other. It’s often difficult to see why some are confused about what is and isn’t good character, good behavior anymore.
I believe in God, an afterlife, and a soul. I believe experiencing the evil’s of man leaves tarnish on our souls, it dims the light of God within us. I believe that’s the point and purpose of evil. I also believe it’s our responsibilty, our duty under God to ‘clean’ the tarnish from our souls through our faith in God, the use of His light, His love that He so freely gives to us.
I also believe that hatred, bitterness, malice, doing unto others the bad that they’ve done to us blackens the soul. Not tarnish, that is only at the surface and can be cleaned, buffed and removed through the healing love of God. But blackens, like a cancer, destroying the soul and removing us from God, His love and His light.
It’s important to me to find a way to heal, to remove the tarnish, the damage I’ve sustained. I’ll not allow his evils to destroy my soul, my spirit the way he destroyed his own. I’ll not allow him to separate me from God and love. God will heal all our wounds if we let Him. If we allow His Light, His Love to guide us.
I may still struggle with trust and with people but I’m able to experience God’s love again through plants, animals, our animal companions, the love and appreciation of a good movie, a good book, a job well done, the sense of accomplishment. I have at least moments of peace and contentment, a sense of rightness that’s been missing for so long.
Be well and I hope for peace and love for you.
Hi Charlie,
She’s something. I think she responding to her parents telling her no-rebelling-but I’m not her parent. I’m thinking at some point it will get annoying to her having to move them around/get past them, and/or people will start making comments to her about it. Either way, I don’t need to get over there…my perennials take care of themselves.
It makes sense that you see your kindness is the #1 reason they target you. They do seem to go for kind people, as you say, they seem to be both attracted to it and repelled by it. I’ve wondered that too, if it feels disempowering for them. I also think they want you, your kindness, to reflect well on them and are pissed when it doesn’t always work. (look who I’m with, she’s kind, if she likes me, you should too, I’m good) And that they likely see that as weakness (a weakness/vulnerability to be exploited).
Sounds like he was really frustrated with the results of his personality, his style of relating on his relationships.
“It is sad and on one level I do feel bad for him that he is incapable of understanding the power of ‘good’: kindness, reciprocity, empathy, truth, loyalty. In his mind, these are weaknesses not strengths. On another level, I’m horrified and afraid of this alien in a human body. It’s a tough balance and added to seeing so many people with the same attitudes and behaviors. It’s daunting.”
Well said. That sums up the sad reality of dealing with these folks. Daunting for sure.
The older I get, the less I want to deal with people. It’s exhausting.
Hi, Liz,
I’m finding people to be exhausting as well. I find I’m spending more and more and more of my time solo and finding it rewarding.
I’ve also picked up on these characters wanting another’s kindness to reflect well on them. I had occassionally wondered if I was a some kind of ‘beard’ for him. And I am coming to realize that was at least part of my use for him. They don’t and can’t really appreciate kindness but they can and will certainly use it to their advantage particularly for impression management.
Bingo. An impression management beard. That’s the utility. Also, you are a safe target. Predators don’t go after other predators when there are safe targets/easy prey for the taking. Most especially as your goodness can be utilized for their impression management purposes. A beard indeed.
Yes, yep and absolutely!