Narcissism and Character Development

In many ways, we all begin our lives as narcissists.  As infants, we think we’re the center of the universe.  Not only do we think the world revolves around us but we also tend to think things in the external world are merely extensions of ourselves.  Narcissism is part of our makeup from early on.  Of course, narcissism is more than this early and natural egocentricity. But it’s not uncommon for all children to struggle with all the other features of narcissism such as attitudes of entitlement, a lack of empathy for others, an unrealistic sense of our personal power, etc. as they’re learning about themselves and the world around them.  While narcissism is natural to us from early on, arguably one of the most important tasks of character developent is learning to overcome it.  Stepping outside of our inner world, moving past our immediate and selfish desires, and appropriately regarding our place in the larger scheme of things – that’s largely what sound character formation is all about.  Too bad so many of us these days enter adulthood without having overcome our childish narcissism.

In my book Character Disturbance, I describe “10 commandments” of sound character formation – lessons that have to be successfully learned and mastered for a person to function in a socially responsible manner.  I’ve also written several articles on the topic (see the series of posts beginning with: Building Character: The 10 Commandments of Socialization). But in the coming weeks, I’d like to take a much closer look at the process of socialization (see also: Socialization is a Process) and what has to happen for a person to overcome their natural early narcissism and enter adult life with the kind of character that will enable them to form healthy relationships and function responsibly.

The clinical case study reviews I had completed prior to publishing my first book In Sheep’s Clothing,  suggested to me that certain occurrences and circumstances that are actually quite common in early development are the prime reasons some folks develop an imbalanced and unhealthy sense of self-worth.  At the time, there was no empirical support for my suspicions. But over the past decade, research evidence has been mounting supporting many of my contentions about how a person’s ego becomes inflated. So in the coming series of articles I’ll be be incorporating this supporting data into an in-depth discussion of how a person develops healthy self-esteem and forms a healthy self-image.  We’ll be looking not only at what’s necessary to successfully overcome narcissism as we grow and learn but also at what learning failures folks typically experience when they enter adulthood too narcissistic to love and work in a mature, responsible way.

Character Matters will be a live program Sunday at 7 pm Eastern (6 pm Central), so I can take your phone calls.

New professional workshop training dates have been scheduled, so check the workshops page on this site or visit the Cross Country Seminars website for more details.

171 thoughts on “Narcissism and Character Development

  1. Can a person have good intentions and still not-quite-developed-character or holes in character? Not sure how to say this.

    1. Timothy,
      Such a person reared in a dysfunctional family can have good intentions, but having seen and lived in an environment that never introduced character models can in fact have deficits due to this.

      The individual would understand these loses if they would be around others that would model this behavior The individual would then choose to change and grow and develop the the character deficits they know are lacking.

      Many times this can be difficult especially, now in a society that tends to reward and find excuses for bad behavior.

      I have noticed it seems to be a fad “the Selfies” to be narcissistic.

    2. I’ve even seen selfies some teens have taken – while beside a deathbed of their dying(or dead?) grandma or a coffin.

      I don’t know what exactly went through their heads while they took their photos, but that’s another level of self-absorbed thoughtlessness.

  2. I’m not sure that I agree with the notion that children are born narcissistic. I’ve heard people say this before but I don’t think it’s the case. For sure young children are VERY self centered and focused on others gratifying their needs. And absolutely the lack many of the skills such as empathy that need to be developed for a healthy social existence.

    Healthy social and emotional skills such as the ability to love and empathize are developed from nurturing of one’s authentic self. While ego driven behaviours such as seeking narcissistic supply are driven by the unhealthy creation of the false self, as in the case of narcissism. (Of course some ego is healthy so we can evaluate ourselves in the way others see us and keep ourselves in check.)

    I don’t we are born narcissists because we don’t really have the ego development at that age to constitute narcissism. The self centered behavior I think has a lot more to do with a childs need to survive etc and we slowly aquire the skills to hold our own, sooth ourselves, and later learn to care for others.

    I think the problem in the development of character comes when the childs “authentic self” from which love and empathy are generated is stunted. Sometimes though outright abuse and other times through a very subtle lack of acknowlegemt or emotional unavailability (which is also very abusive). Especially when there is an over emphasis on the childs ego -placing them on a pedestal for achievements, good looks, etc while simultaneously failing to nurture the authentic self.

    I think in the case of abuse the child might develop the kind of “defensive” false self, while in the case of over focus on ego we see more of the “grandiose” type of narcissism. In both cases the child’s authentic self has been damaged or has failed to develop. And the child learns to exist and relate to others via their ego self.

    At what age do we begin to have the kind of self awareness to constitute ego? Maybe as early as 4-5 it begins to take shape and continues to mature and develop into our late teens /early twenties? But I don’t think we can be born narcissistic. There is a very big difference between a developing child focused on their needs for survival and a narcissist. In my opinion narcissism can’t truly manifest until a bit later when there is enough ego.

    1. “Especially when there is an over emphasis on the childs ego -placing them on a pedestal for achievements, good looks, etc while simultaneously failing to nurture the authentic self.”

      Wait…. Isn’t that histrionic personality disorder? You know, the active-independent PD?

      While a narcissist is pathologically independent?

        1. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “active-dependent” or “independent”. Do you mean as in dependent personality disorder?

          My belief is that narcissists are actually extremely dependent on others for supply. Walk away from any narcissist or abuser and you’ll see them unravel and hoover like crazy to get you back. They can’t stand that they are need their targets for supply and they loathe them for it. Because they have to be superior and in control of others. Not the other way around. This is their contradiction.

          1. Ok I see what you mean by active/passive dependent. And yes it can become a circular argument. I would still say that both narcissists are very dependent in a different way. Not by needing approval etc but by needing to exert their superiority on someone. They need someone to subjugate.

            Take Donald Trump as the example came up already. Imagine if he was striped of all his supply – his wealth power and influence. Even take away the negative supply, he knows he is not liked by many and seems to enjoy even the power in being able to evoke a negative reaction. Society suddenly saw him as an ordinary person, in a middle class apartment taking orders from a boss like everyone else. I think he would loose it! Like a classic narcissists he would rage and rage and rage in an attempt to reexert his omnipotence that has just been stripped away. Because he is dependent on it. And without it he is not a “no self”. All his life he has only depended on his ego for confirmation of his existence.

            If narcissists didn’t depend on the opinions of others there would be no such thing as the “narcissistic injury” when their grandiose self wasn’t reflected in the eyes of others.

      1. Look we can all agree to disagree and I very much respect that other points of view exist. I could very well be wrong.

        In my opinion, and it is just that, my opinion, and feel free to take it or leave it, babies are in “no way” narcissistic. Narcissism requires a great deal of self awareness, as in an ego. Babies and young toddlers just don’t have the mental capacity for narcissism.

        But yes if a baby or young toddler is deprived of the opportunity to develop a healthy sense of self through love, trust, empathy, which healthy children naturally seek, they are at a high risk to develop personality disorders. They will find a way to compensate for this by becoming either “neurotic” or “disturbed”, which I’m starting to believe more and more are really just two sides of the same coin.

        There’s no need to agree. I’m just putting the idea out there. And we can have a healthy debate or not. Either way is ok.

        1. Valencia,
          I didn’t disagree with you, at this point I have not completely formed an opinion. I believe this is a point in research that many of the leading doctors can’t agree on. I know for many CD the way they were raised and treated early in life is a determining factor.

          I like to look at the child’s behavior when they are at a point of awareness and early behavioral patterns can be examined.. Prior to this arises the question of abuse that is contained in the subconscious memory and tissue of babies. We can even go so far as to the memories of the child in the womb.

          Then there are genetic and biological factors to be considered and the individual behavioral issues of caregivers, societal influences, chemical toxins in the environment and so many other factors.

          When babies are born the first thing they do is cry and want to be fed and comforted, they continue to require/demand by screaming their needs. At what point does it become manipulation and self serving? The greatest psychiatric minds go round and round on this one.

          I have many thoughts on this and I agree with many of the things youve said. I will say I have seen these children at a very early age who are CD but I would rather define them as stunted or developmentally arrested at a very early time due to their toddle time behavior they display in their adult life and seem to regress to later in life.

          Perhaps, you could ask Dr. Simon to expand a little further for clarity.

          1. Valencia,
            In dealing with an enormous amount of CD individuals, I will say regardless, the individuals circumstances, everything still comes down to an individual choice on how one wants to conduct and live their lives.

            There comes a time when one can use the poor me to victimize everyone else in society or take responsibility to grow up and take ownership of their behavior. I believe it is a good thing to find out and understand why and what but we can spend a lifetime doing so and never go forward. As it is apparent with society today we have gone backwards. This in itself tells me, so far it not working to well.

            Maybe, we should go back to plain old common sense and responsibility, morale CHARACTER. Me thinks thats what Dr. Simon has been saying all along. Does it really matter what happened yesterday, with so many things, this is the here and now and if we stay stuck in yesterday, we may just wake up very soon and find we have no tomorrow!

            I agree on one thing Character does Matter and truly all the Gobbledegook matters for nothing. Keep it simple, it truly is plain old Character.


          2. Yes I think it would help a lot if Dr.Simon could clarify.

            It’s true that DCs act like toddlers. And I think that as you say, they are stunted from abuse, lack of nurture, or many other factors genetic etc. I think their “authentic self” is stunted at this age where they don’t really grasp the concept that other people have needs and feelings. They fail to develop or have limited ability for empathy. In this sense a comparison can be drawn I guess. But I would still say that what really qualifies a narcissist is the huge over inflated ego. They are toddlers with an ego the size of a house! Lol And a fully developed cognitive ability to manipulate of course.

            A child can begin to show problems very early on as with conduct disorder when something begins to go wrong.

            As to when does a healthy child begin begin to be manipulative? I think a child cries to comunicate they want/need something. This is not manipulation. It’s just communication. Even an older child -say 6 or 7 who throes a tantrum because they didn’t get something they really wanted. The child is just expressing genuine grief and they lack the emotional control and experience to put things in perspective. If you see the child stop their tantrum and look up at you to see if you’re falling for it, it may be called manipulation. But I don’t think healthy children do this kind of thing. I think kids are very genuine about their feelings and what you see is pretty much what you get.

          3. I guess what I mean is that even older kids are not “acting” in order to get what they want or guilt tripping etc. If they are it’s good reason for concern I think.

            I agree with you also that there’s no use overanalyzing a DCs behavior and better to let them go on and be responsible for themselves.

            This topic is very important to me as many of you know I suspect my mother in law to be psychopathic, and my sister in law and husband have sometimes also raised some flags. I’m raising a baby girl and have had some concerns about genetic factors. So far she is doing great! She is loving sensitive and engaged. It’s very important for me to be aware of possible warning signs and how to intervene or seek professional help should the need arise.

            Blessings to you as well!

          4. Yes indeed there seems to be biological and genetic determinants for developing Narcissism and Psychopathy, i refer to the link given by Joey recently.

            Hare even goes so far as to say that nothing could have been done to stop this development, the only power parents have is to modify the ‘shape’ of the disorder.

            There is even research that suggests that a good upbringing makes them worse!!!

            Can’t remember where i read that one, years ago now, disturbing though.

          1. Thanks Jackie! It’s a very scary thought that some babies are born disordered. I’m really hoping the problems in my husband’s family are due to upbringing. My mil had a very privileged life and her mother had a lot of kids and suffered some depression. It’s the classic “entitlement” without “emotional nurturing”. I’m hoping the psychopathic streaks I see in my sil and husband are due to poor role modeling and the obvious dysfunction they grew up with.

            My daughter seems ok. She had a bad fall a few weeks ago and was crying inconsolably. I picked her up to try to sooth her and I felt so bad for her. It wasn’t until the moment I really tuned into her pain and felt what she was feeling that she suddenly stopped crying. It was really a moment of empathy and it was as if by my feeling her pain and fear it took some of the burden off of her and she felt ok. I think we’ll be alright! Lol

        2. The famous British Psychotherapist and Paediatrician, Donald Winnicott came out with some extremely interesting concepts about babies, saying in the main that there is no such thing as a baby as in its first few months it is intrinsically bonded and linked to its mother, as they are ‘one’. However very early on as a baby begins to experience it’s main caregiver it then starts formulating its thoughts and emotions, and should anything within that process become too disturbing to bear then unhealthy narcissism is born, as a defence mechanism. An interesting concept.

          There are however later Psychotherapists than Winnicott who try and take it further back, into the womb even.

    2. Valencia,
      I could write pages on this topic and would use specific scenarios of CD individuals I have watched grow and encountered and came to know their history. This is indeed the beginning of where a CDN is born.

      A baby is born helpless, entirely dependent. the child is focused and aware of only its needs, no others only their needs. So, the baby is self-serving, until it reaches a certain age, we can only guess as the child cannot tell us their thoughts. Now they are happy, coo, smile, when they want something demand what they want or tell us in the only way they know how.

      They do not think of your needs. All of my children went through the terrible two’s and if we want to talk in psych terms I would say they were selfish, and narcissistic on the scale and difficult to say the least.

      Each child was different in teaching and nurturing to the next step of maturing. I believe we keep maturing all of our lives if we are open to experience and accepting our weaknesses and growing.

      Each time as my children grew they pressed the limits at times and then I can remember them being at different stages very opinionated and taught them what I could that I thought would help them in their growth to maturity.

      I can definitely see where I made mistakes in rearing them as I did not have the maturity needed to nurture them in these areas. therefore, the generational sins of the fathers continues. I take full responsibility in changing myself for these, my defects in character.

      I came from and extremely dysfunctional family, but in the end it is a choice of if I want to continue the cycle. I tried my best to break the cycle.

      As I look back at my own childhood I can remember times in my life I was outright selfish, I could had continued to be selfish but I choose otherwise.
      I looked at what the outcome of this selfish thought or deed, how it would affect me and the harm it would do to the other person and yes conscience was a determining factor. I always and still do believe in the end I will have to answer to my creator.

      I believe that a child has an innate desire to be selfish but with mature and nurturing parents they learn maturity and the needs of others. Such as learning the small feeling of giving, making a card of their own creation, expressing who they are and at the same time giving it as an act of love.

      The child must have consistent reinforcement in order to mature and not get stuck in a narcissistic developmental state. The growing of a human being can be very complex.

      In the end regardless of where we can from and what we experienced it still boils down to a choice of doing right or wrong. It is exactly as Dr. Simon say
      Its all about Character, and we choose it is my choice and mine alone regardless.


      1. Thanks BTOV,

        I absolutely agree that character has to be taught, nurtured, and enforced for young children to develop into healthy individuals. And I very much look forward to the Dr.Simons next articles. I think there’s a lot of wisdom on his work.

        I think the inherent contradiction I’m struggling with is that we’re saying “character is a mater of choice” (and I absolutely agree), and “DCs know what they are doing”, and then assigning this label of “selfish” or “narcissistic” to a child who does not yet have the emotional and cognitive capacity to understand right from wrong. (DCs often have the cognitive understanding as in cognitive empathy but not emotional).

        Narcissism is an extremely maladaptive disorder. No psychiatrist would diagnose a child with a personality disorder and this for a reason. Even though some kids may be slower in developing some social, emotional, or cognitive skills, they are not yet fully developed. They do not have a fully developed self awareness, impulse controls, moral judgment etc. We are saying character is all about choice but how is a child supposed to make the right “choice” without the maturity of these developmental resources.

        I agree that it is a process. There’s no magic age when a child becomes mature. And I completely agree that character development is a lifelong process. Even as adults we often don’t have a fully developed understanding of the impact of our actions but this does not make us narcissists. Most of us have enough humility to internalize our mistakes if we can recognize them and correct our behavior.

        The question of “free will” and morality comes down to our awareness. A DC will “choose” to be selfish despite being fully cognisant of the how it hurts others.

        If you have a sapling, and an old sick tree that is not producing fruit, you don’t say the sapling is sick or disordered because it also doesn’t produce fruit. The sapling needs the chance to grow, to be nurtured, protected, braced and reinforced, so it can grow to be a healthy tree that gives fruit.

        We just cannot hold children to the same standards as adults and call them disordered when they are just simply developing.

        1. Valencia,

          Have you noticed that there are many, many contradictions stated about these conditions, i’ve just watched several videos on youtube tonight and they contradicted each other on some points.

          I suppose it depends on where you’re coming from discipline wise, Neuroscientist, Psychologist, Psychiatrist, Therapist, Behavioural scientist; add to the mix the red and blue corners of Psychoanalysis versus the hard science of brain scans and the like.

          Yes, lots and lots of contradictions.

          It said in that Fallon Video what you mentioned, that Psychopaths, Narcissists have the cognitive capacity to understand emotion but lack empathic capabilities to really feel another’s pain.

          There are some clinicians/researchers that believe that this isn’t a disorder at all, just an adaptation, others say it’s a throwback to an earlier society when these people were needed, fighting wars, killing the enemy and so on, could be where the warrior gene comes in??

          Your Daughter has a great mum, i can sense your anxiety about her inbetween the lines, i am sure she will be fine with you at the helm:)

          1. Sorry just adding, i’ve noticed with Fallon and some other Psychopaths, Bundy and lots more, that they have this little tongue flicking habit, it comes out and touches the top lip, just like snakes, is this the much touted ‘reptilian brain’ at work, lol!

          2. Jackie,
            I witnessed that once in someone too, and I am sure he would rate as a psychopath. He reminded me of a reptile, the man gave me the creeps.

      2. I don’t think it’s even fair to draw any kind of comparison between a healthy developing child and a personality disordered person.

        Superficially some behaviors may appear similar. But I would argue that the process behind the two are worlds appart.

        In my opinion, yes character has to be taught and nurtured and reinforced in children. But the standards to which we hold children have to be age appropriate to their capacities. And no, we don’t draw comparisons between them and disordered adults when they fail to measure up to the standards of a fully mature healthy adult.

      3. As I mentioned above in another post. A DC does in many ways have a stunted development and capacity, when it comes to emotional empathy impulse control, etc. These areas can fail to develop due to genetics, abuse, neglect etc as we all know.

        The big difference is that a DC has the fully developed cognitive capasity to understand the reality of things and right from wrong. They “choose” (as you say) not to adapt reality, and to do wrong because they feel entitled, or superior, or justified, or make up lies to rationalize their behavior to themselves even, they can’t or dont want to internalize anything, etc, etc.

        A healthy child, as with a healthy adult can hold himself accountable if age appropriate, can learn from mistakes and consequences, etc.

        Personality disorders are a real sickness. A developing child is not sick.

        While yes there are some similarities in how a child and a DC lack development, we have to be very careful in understanding the very fundamental distinctions. And not assign the malignant traits to a developing child. This is not fair and kind of abusive actually. I guess that’s why it’s touching a nerve with me.

      4. Ok, it’s probably touching a nerve because my narcissistic mother would project so much of her disorder on me and my siblings. Saying we are “selfish”,

        It is normal and healthy for kids to be selfish and to make mistakes. This is very different from sickness that is narcissism!

        Sorry to rant…. 🙂

        We have to be very careful

        1. Yes, i guessed right about your anxiety, i answered you above before i read the following three posts of yours, stay no contact with the toxic influences, stay positive.

    3. Freud believed that ones ego is formed much earlier than 4-5. And it was Melanie Klein who saw that this appeared within infancy.

      1. HarrySharp1

        I agree in points of theory by all the above clinicians. I will repeat though in the end it is a choice in how one chooses to live their lives and treat another.
        It can be very tricky in diagnosing the cause and effect and at the same time give a legalistic/ psychological excuse for ones aberrant behavior.

        As such, the following example of the formation of an individual.

        The child is born to a woman of 25 years of age, a middle child in a family of 10. The woman being a middle child is taken care of by the older siblings and of all this female child is the most comely, in essence a very selfish and narcissistic individual who believes she is absolutely beautiful. At the same time this female is aggressive having older brothers. Loud and boisterous, taking on the personality of a CDN father.

        This woman has a child at 25, ( IQ average to below average) but being – developmentally arrested emotionally – due to her own narcissism she has little ability to nurture and care for an infant. Instead of cuddling and holding her child the bottle is propped in the babies mouth.

        When the baby has made her livid and beside herself due to the incessant crying because in fact the baby is colicky. The woman then being at her wits end, shakes the crying infant wanting the baby to shut up. Having had her patience maxed out she puts the baby back in the crib and lets the baby continually cry itself out.

        When I heard this story I was incredulous that this individual did not have the perception to know the baby was in pain from the colic. My thoughts were, you were committing acts of child abuse and neglect. My thoughts: What damage would/could has been done psychologically and what potential damage to the babies thinking abilities in the future..

        Remember the studies on children in Romania that were left in the cribs with little or no human touch. Are these babies the CDN we have today.

        I can remember back to things when I was 20 months old. I do believe many parts of who we are are formed then. Considerations, of genetic, biological, environmental, and even the food we are fed and now all the chemicals that could perhaps, alter our brain process.

        I still contend given all the information, our conduct and character is our choice. Finding rationale for the CD perpetrator will diminish responsibility on their part and we could be a party to their walking free. I believe this to be a very slippery slope and it would serve all concerned to work on the CD taking responsibility for their actions.

        I would like to see the brain studies of a before and after of a CDNSP after a year of intensive CBT and a supportive therapist to include teaching the family the dysfunctional dynamics at play. For the CD to learn humility and acceptance of God and full responsibility for their actions..

        Would appreciate your thoughts.


  3. A 3 year old is out looking to mine and exploit the world for narcissistic supply. They want to feel they are safe, they can trust, they are seen, and are loved!

    1. Hi Valencia,

      Replying here cos the reply button isn’t under relevant post, these buttons are a law unto themselves.

      Try not to worry too much, in Robert Hare’s book he is only taking about the real sharks out there, high end Psychopaths, he even mentions that Conduct Disorder doesn’t quite cut it with young Psychopaths.

      It’s much more likely to be the reasons you mentioned, some traits but that’s all, certainly nothing like the stuff you will read here.

      As for your Child, it struck me how some people can immediately sooth babies, even if they are a stranger to the Child, i wonder if empathy is so strong in these people the babies/toddlers pick up on it?

      Your Daughter is very lucky to have such a lovely, super Mum:)

      1. I scored my mil just based on what I know about her and the behaviors I’ve witnessed first hand or heard about from my husband’s upbringing, using Dr. Hare’s checklist. She scored 28. And that’s considering Dr. Hares checklist is for criminal psychopaths. I omitted the questions to do with criminality, probation etc even though they could translate to a non criminal context and made her score even higher. It’s pretty bad. My husband’s father committed suicide. It’s really pretty bad and scary.

        We have gone no contact as she was acting crazy and being manipulative and me and my husband felt she was trying take control of and emotionally steal or baby. I still find it hard to believe I came face to face with such evil. I have known many DCs in my years but this one was off the chart.

        Thanks for the kind words! I was never good with kids but this little bundle of joy is bringing out the best in us. 🙂

        1. Hi Valencia,

          Hmmm, isn’t 30 the cut off point? You are right to have No Contact.

          You have taken your Daughter out of harms way now so things will hopefully be fine, please stay No Contact.

          28? Damn…

          1. Yeah there was a LOT of cognitive dissonance while trying to make sense of what was going on. She appeared so nice and sweet and helpful in the beginning. My husband and I started to connect the dots about his father’s suicide etc. I think she saw our baby as a brand new person she could own for whatever gratification she gets out of that. It’s been horrifying.

            The checklist is not only targeted at criminals but also at men. We omitted any questions to do with sexuality and promiscuity as we don’t really know about that also. I’m sure if it was a checklist made for non criminal women she would have scored very high. It is amazing that people like this can go through life relatively undetected. And it just goes to show how messed up they are because they know right from wrong and hide their intentions. It is really just horrifying!!!

            I’m so grateful to have found this site and that there’s so much available information now a days to unmask these people for what they are…

          2. Hi Valencia

            Good thing you and husband have figured out soon enough to keep your baby away from mil. I’m sure you and husband will do a great job raising her and it will bring you two much joy and hopefully help ease the pain of what you’re going through

          3. Thanks Lucy! As if having a baby was not already stressful enough. Lol. No I’m grateful we caught on early. And really dodged a bullet.

  4. Do you think social and economic status play a part in developing Grandiose narcissism ? I’m thinking Donald Trump right now. And I don’t believe I’ve eben ever seen narcissist traits in a young child. But at BTOV experienced growing up with the sister whom she cares for, it is clear something happens early in life to form character

    1. Lucy, I think any sort of privilege can play a role in forming a grandiose narcissist. It can be good looks, money, intelect… Anything that one can identify as special or superior to others in the absence of being grounded down to earth by an authentic sense of self.

      I don’t think normal healthy children are born narcissists. I think narcissism is an extremely maladaptive way of relating to the world that is developed when things don’t go right. There do seem to be cases where children are born with problems from biological reasons but it’s not the norm.

      I do think that the window for a healthy development of “self” can close at a pretty early age. Much like if you blindfold a baby they will never make the neurological connections to be able to see despite having perfectly good eyes. Empathy and love need to be experienced at a very early age for a child to have the capacity for them. And I do think one can start to see problems very early on when they don’t develop properly.

      But I think there’s a big difference in saying we are all born disordered and have to learn through socialization to curb our antisocial ways, and saying we are born as a bit of a blank slate and given proper nurturing will develop in a healthy manner.

      1. Wednesday the 17th. Indent expect much to happen being that we’ve only got 30 minute hearing and four issues to resolve. I think you what’s, if in ordered by the judge to file a joint tax return with the crook I will be very upset. Even with him signing whatever papers to hold me harmless from any lies on the taxes won’t prevent the IRS going after me for fraudulent taxes. Crap just never ends.

        1. Lucy,
          Call the IRS 800 number, I believe you have the right to file separately as long as you notify him. And under the circumstances I would think they would allow this Call and make sure.

  5. Please see attached link. By Dr James Fallon. Psychopath is the ultimate Narcissist. But Dr James Fallon is a Psychopath But is not anti-social. His childhood is a significant part of his social aspect to his character. As Dr Simon also States above.

    1. joey,
      Thanks, I will have to go back and listen to so more of Fallon. I hope you share some more poetry too, it softens the hard reality, I forgot it existed.

          1. Jackie,
            I meant I never, proof my posts. I see the errors after. None of the CD’s will poof that easily, in the meantime I pray they find their way, that is their lost souls before it is to late.

      1. Just For You.

        People are like stained glass windows.
        They sparkle and shine when the sun is out,
        but when the darkness sets in,
        their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within.

        By Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

        Like Dr Simon says.

        1. Joey,

          I’ve heard that one before, doesn’t Elisabeth have such a lovely face?

          I remember an interview with her on youtube, everything that could go wrong DID go wrong, it was too hot, lights and cameras malfunctioned and the interviewer was rude to her on occasion, but she kept very serene:)

        2. Joey,
          Thank you, I read Kubler Ross On Death and Dying which I recommend when I lost my best friend 11 who was my brother 11 months younger at the the age of 18. This book was instrumental in getting me through the loss.

    2. I just had the chance to look into Dr.James Fallon a bit more today. I had come across his work before but not closely.

      Really interesting. Especially the part about “pro social” psychopath. And that even a strong genetic predisposition needs to be triggered by environmental factors for the antisocial traits to develop. I’ve suspected this for some time and I think I know a “pro social” P. He’s a heart surgeon. No malicious intentions just a very logical calculated guy and a bit cold and insensitive.

      1. Jackie,
        Thank you for asking, No I wasn’t feeling well, am better. ‘
        LisaO, h ow are you ? I hope you have been on a holiday, you are missed.
        Looking for you too, Suzi.

        1. Hi Btov,

          Same as you, feeling better off and on, but have been just hammered with a bad virus for 6 weeks.

          Valencia, very interesting about the heart surgeon. I know of a similar type…heart surgeon. Met him briefly about 20 years ago and noted how ‘off’ he was. I was really surprised as I expected a doctor to be ‘operating,’ (literally!) from a more compassionate place. This cat was as cold as ice. I didn’t know much about psychopaths at the time, just that there was something very wrong with his vibe. I suspect he might have been a P and a pro-social one. If you are going to be cold and calculating better to cut people to help them than to hurt them!

          1. LisaO
            Welcome back and heres to feeling well for a long time. I always enjoy your posts. I miss many who have not returned, my thoughts and prayers are with them.

          2. LisaO
            Welcome back and heres to feeling well for a long time. I always enjoy your posts. I miss so many of the poster who have not returned, my thoughts and prayers are with them.
            I am trying a chiro for now and so far has helped some. Hope it lasts!

          3. Yes better to be cutting people up to save their lives on an operating table than for kicks in your basement :/. That’s actually not really funny.

            I know what you mean about the off feeling. I had known my mil for over a decade and always felt she was really nice and really sweet but I just could never connect with her. Like when you’re in conversation and you tune in to the other person in a way where you’re sharing the experience. I ignored my intuition for many years but when me and the baby become targets her behavior was hard to dismiss. She let the mask slip more than once I saw a real demonic expression in her eyes. It creeped the hell out of me big time!

      2. valencia,

        “No malicious intentions just a very logical calculated guy and a bit cold and insensitive”
        Sometimes INTJ people come across like that. Their Thinking side dominates over Perceiving side.

          1. To add to above point:
            INTJ are sometime perceived to be too arrogant, cold and insensitive when they are not.

        1. Yes it’s possible. I just think it’s interesting that there can be “well adjusted” psychopaths who chanel their callousness for the good of society. Lol.

          Just not in my backyard I hope.

          1. Unless they’re a fearless fireman who puts out an out of control brush fire!
            So many ways of looking at the pro-social types!

          2. Yes LisaO, I think they play a very important role in society.

            I think my husband has that warrior gene. He once heard a girl screaming late at night and it turned out that she had been drugged in a bar and was being dragged behind some houses to be assaulted. My husband is not a big guy. He jumped out of the house in the middle of the night in winter without shoes and chased off a guy twice his size without a glimmer of hesitation. The girl was saved.

            He can be very sensitive and empathic so maybe he inherited something to offset all the psycho impulsive genes from his mom. But the “courage” can be a problem in his interpersonal relationships.

            Maybe it’s when someone is dealt a bad hand and gets too many of these genes? But I think even the prosocial ones are probably hard to deal with as people if you get very close. Probably the same as if someone is overly emotional.

      3. Valencia there is a forum devoted to these types, makes for rather depressing reading, weak emotions, any strong feeling not lasting very long, most of them do not need others, sometimes i wonder if these types have schizoid overlap with some of them, as schizoid can be present with psychopathy apparently.

        There IS however a separate section for dark thoughts, morbid fantasies, but they are a minority on the forum.

        I think considering the fact that in some cases good upbringing makes no difference, and somebody could become resentful of their lot at any point, and strike out, i don’t think any of them are a particularly safe bet lol!

        1. Yes Jackie, I came across some of these when I was trying to understand what was going on in mils head. I will never truly know.

          It was amazing how self aware they are and proud not to be burdened by empathy and rules.

          Most of them failed to understand that we adhere to social rules not because we have been brain washed or indoctrinated but because we it literally hurts us when we see suffering in someone else.

          It was really quite fascinating but yes depressing and creepy.

          1. Hi Valencia, (lovely name by the way:)

            To be honest i was feeling lower and lower the more i read it, not shock or disgust as with terrible crimes, just this heavy, sinking feeling that most of the colours and hue of life just isn’t there for them.

            And yes as you say, they were quite comfortable and in some cases, haughty because they were not burdened, as you quite rightly point out.

            I wonder how they ‘listen’ to music?

          2. Honestly I think they are all very lonely and miserable people. The ones that are very disordered that is and have practically zero capacity to connect with another person in a way other than being lustful or possessive. It’s quite sad. That’s why I think they do so many messed up things. They are just so empty. Part of me feels that deep down there is a soul being held hostage by their disorder. They try and try to fill that void but they are just empty.

            I was in an extremely dark place a few months ago ruminating and trying to make sense of what had happened. For anyone who has been the target of a psychopath you will just never forget that feeling. I was already in such a dark place I was not that effected by reading about these people. It helped me accept and understand what had happened.

            I’ve been slowly letting it go by genuinely nurturing compassion instead of resentment. As I really think they are very miserable people. And I’m slowly detaching and moving on!

            The best way I can describe my mil is like the classic archetype of ferry tales where the witch wants to steal the baby or eat the kids like in hensel and gretel. Really creepy feeling.

  6. So here it is!

    Courtesy of contributors

    *Abnormal Behavior and Personality; Theodore Millon and Renee Millon
    *People of the lie and The road less travelled; M. Scott Peck
    *Psychology of Self and the treatment of Narcissism; Richard D. Chessick
    *Assessing Psychological Trauma and PTSD by (?)
    *Emotional abuse; Marti Tamm Loring
    *Verbally abusive relationship; Pat Evans
    *Victory over verbal abuse; Pat Evans
    *Healing the Child Within; Charles Whitfield
    *Primal Scream; Arthur Janov
    *Trauma and Recovery: The aftermath of violence – From domestic abuse and political terror; Judith Herman, M.D.

    And some more:

    *Office politics; Oliver James (Thanks, Joey!)
    *Unlocking emotional brain; Bruce Ecker
    *Psychology of stalking; J. Reid Meloy (Thanks, Jackie!)

    1. Timothy
      Great job again, you can come and organize my library. I pulled a few out. I own Abnormal Behavior and Personality by Millon *****
      Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism by Kernberg*****
      Forensic Psychology by Manthew Huss ****
      Psychology of the self by Chessick
      Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward *****
      More Psychopaths and Love **** Book is costly for info contained
      The Myth of Sanity by Martha Stout ****
      Emotional Prisoner by Jose Villegas 111 *****
      Stalked by Mellita Schaum ****
      Soul Murder by Leonard Shengold *****
      Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller *****
      Splitting By Bill Eddy*****
      Glimpses of the Devil by Scott Peck *****

      Just for starters. There is a book too, Snakes in Suits *****

  7. Ooh Tim, i want to get the stalking one by Meloy, i was stalked in my early 20’s by a friend of my Brother’s, scary time.

    People of the lie is another one.

      1. Thanks Tim,

        I will have a look at that link with interest.

        The friend of my Brother’s who stalked me was quite an odd person, at 27 he had never had a relationship, i felt sorry for him and defended him against my Brother and his other friends, who were quite cruel and just used him as a runaround, as he was the one with the car.

        I was 14 at that time, this would be 1976, (showing my age lol), he used to collect American Police uniforms, had all types from California to New York and across the Country, i think back now and wonder how he acquired them, as this was way before the internet of course. He went out like that, carrying his night stick, and stuck a blue light on his car; but to my knowledge he hadn’t committed anything awful, he was extremely timid.

        The stalking began when i was around 20, following me in his car on my way home from work, parking outside my flat leaving his lights on, silent phone calls; never directly approaching me, so this was extremely hard to prove. It tailed off as i completely ignored it, not giving any sign that i knew he was there, i was fortunate that he wasen’t aggressive.

        It was only years later that a friend said that he openly admitted filming me along with taking pictures of me coming out of School years earlier; he had a thing about cameras also; there was a large block of flats directly across from the School and he would stand on the top balcony and have his fun.

        Now i think we should have gone to the Police, as he may well have switched to someone else later on.

        I have no idea what he would be diagnosed as today.

        1. Jackie, this is really scary. You’re very lucky not to have been hurt although I’m sure it had an impact on some levels.

          I don’t know much about sexual assault in relation to stalking but it is definitely predatory behavior. My limited understanding is that men assault because of anger towards women or because they feel deeply inferior and unwanted/rejected by women.

          Thank goodness you were not hurt!

          1. Thank you Valencia,

            Yes i consider myself lucky, i think i may have triggered it by defending him, it was just so unfair the way he was treated, so who knows.

            When i was 14, my brother was 19, and all his friends around the same age, so it WAS little strange i suppose that a 27 year old man was hanging around with boys, at least compared to himself.

            He was seen in the street or in his car, IN these uniforms and it would be odd even if in America, but this was in London, Inner London at that! Where on earth did he get them from?

            If he brought the subject up of US Police Uniforms then he would not stop talking about them, AND he loved C.H.I.P.S!

            A lucky escape.

        2. Jackie, in 1976 I doubt anything would have been done if you had gone to the police. I was stalked relentlessly by someone I knew in 1979. I went to the police and then finally to his wife and still nothing was ever done. The immediate reaction from the police was a chuckle and the advice “so move and and change your phone number” and his wife didn’t seem surprised OR upset when I told her about what her husband was doing. This went on for 2 years!! I eventually did move and change my number because his actions were escalating. In 1979 there were no stalking laws.

          1. Hi Sydney,

            Your experience sounds far worse than mine, what the hell was going on with his Wife?

            Were you living alone at the time, i still lived with my Family at least.

            Well the stalking started in 1982, at least that i am aware of, the filming and taking pictures of me coming out of School in 1976 makes me think now that he was stalking me then, but i had no idea.

            I always lived in London, i’m guessing you are American, and i am sure you are still correct regarding the Police, i am sure nothing would have been done because our cops were just as bad over here.

            You only have to listen to the sickening remarks made by the Police and the press about the ‘nice girls’ being murdered and being more important that the prostitutes that were killed by Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper in the late 1970’s to realize that.

  8. Charecter development at any age.

    By Carl Jung

    If there is anything that we wish to change in the child,
    we should first examine it and see whether
    it is not something
    that could better be changed in ourselves.

    1. Thanks for that, Joey, and please keep coming!

      Jung(or Jungian branch of psychology) seems to be referenced a lot around here. Curious that.

      1. I prefer Kernberg or Millon and Scott Peck to name a few. Jung became awful strange in his later years. Someone posted a site where Dr. Kernberg recently did a 2 hour conference on Narcissism which I thought was excellent. And yes, Joey, please keep posting, you have brightened my day many times.

      2. Kernberg I haven’t read, but Millon I’m getting around to ordering sometime soon. Hell, Millon even has his own typology of different psychopaths(malignant, tyrannical, malevolent, spineless etc. More on that later).

        As for Jung becoming awful strange, hasn’t New Age -thinking taken influence from Jung? I know many people, who are iffy about New Age and then some others, who prefer to think that anyone having anything to criticize about it must just be “negative” or whatnot.

        1. Yes Timothy, please do tell us about Millon’s subtypes of Psychopaths, as not only do i plan to read him but have long been interested in the subtypes, which many resources don’t go into.

        2. The convo’s flitting from one topic to another now. A bit confusing, methinks.

          Anyway’s about the subtypes, I remember reading a bit of Theodore mIllon’s Psychopathy, which mentiones the subtypes or at least how Millon views those types of people.

          Though I’m not sure about a forum full of people labeling themselves psychopaths, the initial listed types could be copypasted here.


          The Unprincipled Psychopath

          Activities kept near or at the boundaries of the law; stereotyped social roles; con man, charlatan, fast-talking used car salesman.

          Expansive fantasies and exaggerated sense of self-importance.

          Willing to take advantage of and humiliate those who leave themselves open to deceit.

          May cultivate persuasiveness or charm as a means of getting others to lower their guard, but sees all prosocial behaviour as ultimately self-serving.

          Contemptuous of “the system”; working “the system” to avoid punishment seen as just “part of the game”.

          The Covetous Psychopath

          Sees self as wronfully deprived of life’s neccessities, leading to envy and resentment.

          Compensates by taking what he or she is entitled to as a means of revenging wrong and restoring “karmic balance” in life.

          Sees self as a victim of external forces, misunderstood by others and by society.

          Manipulates others as a meaning of proving own superiority, as well as avenging attributions of worthlessness.

          Smug and contemptuous toward victims, who may be viewed as pawns in the larger game.

          Prone to ostentatious displays of conspicuous consumption.

          The Risk-Taking Psychopath

          Chronic underarousal leads to risk-taking as means of “feeling alive”.

          Fails to realize the consequences of risk-taking; believes that social rules are unnecessarily confining of own sense of adventure.

          Eschews normal desire for safety as evidence of cowardice.

          Proves own mettle as a means of proving self-esteem and worthiness to self and others.

          The Disingenuous Psychopath

          Superficial sociability (or even seductiveness) hides an impulsive, moody and resentful core.

          Emotionally labile, prone to excitement-seeking, stimulus-dependant behaviour, lacking in forethought, with a high potential for painful consequences.

          Rationalizes and projects blame onto others when attempts to solicit attention go awry.

          The Spineless Psychopath

          Aggression not intrinsically rewarding; psychopathic acts intended to (show? convince? demonstrate to?) others that the psychopath is not weak.

          Has first-strike mentality; strikes whenever own fearfulness peaks (perhaps in episodes of panic), regardless of objective degree of threat.

          Experiences fantasies of vulnerability; sees others as sadistic or exploiting.

          The Abrasive Psychopath

          Prefers to be overtly contentious, confrontational, antagonistic rather than indirectly manipulative.

          Expects hostility from others, and pre-empts insults with own abrasiveness.

          Prefers to escalate arguments; experiences pleasure by frustrating others, making them back down.

          Inherently oppositional to any form of emotional control; seeks to break constraints simply because they exist.

          The Tyrannical Psychopath

          Realizes pleasure through total control of others.

          Employs violence instrumentally, to force perceived opponents to cower or submit.

          Projects image of power or brutality; supports self-image of power and superiority by inflicting pain and suffering, if not power.

          The Explosive Psychopath

          Low frustration threshold, resulting in episodes of uncontrollable rage and violent attack.

          Episodes may be instantaneous reaction to frustration or perceived insult, and thus may be perceived by others as random and unprovoked.

          The Malevolent Psychopath

          Hateful, destructive defiance of values of social life.

          inherently distrustful, ruthless, cold-blooded, revengeful, punitive.

          The Malignant Psychopath

          Often isolated, paranoid, with ruminative fantasies of power and revenge.

          Sees others as inherently persecutory or treacherous.

          Uses hostility as a means of armoring self, forcing adversaries to take issue and withdraw.

          1. It may be Unprincipled. It may be Explosive.
            It may be Spineless. It may be Malignant.
            If one can afford No Contact, the type does not matter. 😀

          2. Hi Timothy,

            Some of those forum members had been formally diagnosed as i remember it, a few were intensely annoyed about the diagnosis, which made for interesting and sometimes, amusing reading in itself.

            Thanks for typing all that out, i suspect though, that personality types are more of a mix than clear cut lines. I am probably reading the list literally though, typical Aspie lol!

          3. Thanks Timothy. This is quite interesting.

            Jackie I totally agree just from my personal experience with psycho mil that often it is a mix of these traits. I would say my mil shows about two thirds of them. Really interesting though.

  9. Valencia,

    I think Dr. Simon means the self centered nature of early childhood extending into adulthood, constitutes a pathology, narcissism. What is normal for a child, is abnormal for an adult. I think he phrased it the way he did for purposes of comparison, not to describe childhood, itself, as a pathological condition.

    1. Hi LisaO!

      I hope all is well. I’m still on the fence about this one. And it did really strike a nerve for me when this comparison was made as I mentioned above because I had so much of my mothers pathological behavior projected on me as a child. I was called selfish, spoiled, bad, etc, and this provoked a lot of shame (that ultimately belonged to my mother not me). It triggers a sense of injustice to hear a child being referred to as selfish or entitled when they don’t yet have the development to take responsibility.

      Just for arguments sake I’ll ask this. Is a child’s sense of selfishness and entitlement the same as a narcissists?

      I would argue that no they are not. And they should not be compared. (Ironically my narc mom is a developmental psychologists -go figure!)

      Say we’re at a birthday party and there’s one cupcake left on the table. A four year old sees it and thinks “yum”. With very little impulse control, or stopping to think about anyone else in the room the child takes the cupcake. See cupcake – yum – take cupcake. Not much else going on.

      Now take a narcissist in an office environment competing for a promotion amongst their colleagues. There is only one position of promotion available. The narcissist’s entitled thought process looks something like this. ” I am better, brighter, more gifted, and therefore more deserving than my colleagues”. The narcissist may proceed to sabotage his competition and feel justified to do so -because he believes he is more deserving. The narcissist sees his “reflection” which requires the self awareness of his ego to project back to himself a delusional fabrication of someone who is above everyone else. This is the very definition of narcissism. Falling in love with the illusion/delusion of oneself.

      This is what I mean by saying it’s not really a fair or really adequate comparison. Narcissistic selfishness and narcissistic entitlement require a level of self awareness that young children are just not capable of.

      So I think you can say kids are self centered in their way, even many adults can be self centered in that aloof kind of way, autistic people can be self centered, people who are developmentally delayed, but it is something entirely different from narcissism.

      But I would absolutely agree that forming character in children is very important to prevent narcissistic traits from developing due to a child being put on a pedestal, not being taught humility, not being taught to empathize etc. But narcissism is very far from the natural inclinations of healthy children. I don’t really think it’s an appropriate comparison.

      1. Valencia,

        As a Mother of an Autistic adult, you are right on the nail, our Son had to have things pointed out to him long after the selfish developmental stage would have passed in a ‘Neurotypical’ child.

        He DID learn, and the motive behind the behaviour was not the same thing at all, in fact it was just impulse; i’ve read that some Autistics see people as objects, but it’s categorically not the same process.

        1. Jackie’
          My heart goes out to you and your son. You love them for who they are, there disability and all. My sister developed schizophrenia by the age of 18 and jumped off a 80 ft bridge. Someday I will have to go look. She lived through this and is a paraplegic as a result of.

          This was over 30 years ago, she is such a beautiful person inside, she has taught me so much. The beauty within. Blessings

          1. Thank you BTOV,

            I always say that to have an Autistic child isn’t a tragedy unless you make it so, they DO have their own personalities and is physically healthy.

            He had to attend a School (temp placement until something more specialized was found) that had kids with all sorts of disabilities, quite a few were in wheelchairs and really didn’t know where they were, there wasen’t anybody ‘there’, if you know what i mean.

            Dreadfully upsetting, but made me realize how lucky we were that our child could run, play, talk, laugh and enjoy life.

            That is such an awful, awful story about your sister, and it’s rather lovely that you receive inspiration from her. God damn!!

    2. Another funny example. My soon to be toddler thinks it’s funny to stick her thumb in my eye and watch me make a face. I’m not going to say children are sadists and need to socialized tu curb their sadistic inclinations. She has no awareness of the discomfort she is causing. She is not enjoying my pain she just likes it when I make a funny face.

      1. Valencia,
        You just said it “she” likes to see you make a ?? funny ? ? face by poking you in the eye, I would not express a funny face by being poked in the eye. It would induce discomfort and pain! Children are very selfish by nature. Which I believe Dr. Simon says is Narcissistic. In this I agree with him. Do not take this as a personal attack against your child. Why doesn’t the child do something that makes you laugh rather than a poke in the eye. This is your opportunity to demonstrate to your child this is improper and causes pain then take this opportunity to show the child it HURTS and not to do it again. Then show the child a pleasurable action.

        This is the opportunity for you to show the child it hurts and then show the child something that is pleasurable. Done in the proper manner reinforces proper behavior.

        I will give you an example of two children in my care. These children the girl
        4 years old and the boy 2 1/2 she really enjoyed biting her brother.
        What do you? Put the girl in the corner? Didn’t work.
        Give her a spank on the bottom? Didn’t work.
        Take away her treat? Didn’t work.
        She enjoyed biting her brother. Now what did I do to try to get her to stop, the next time I caught her in the act , I bite her and said “How do you like it?
        “Every time you bite your brother I am going to bite you!”

        Guess what?????? She never bite her brother again.

        Children are continually learning and changing, so many things are involved in nurturing and training a child giving them the appropriate, love and attention.

        If we look back in society, years back, there was a time when people did not act in the CD world we have today. Our morales, values, integrity, respect for authority, and yes this nation was founded on Christian values. Not always right, but back then there was a profound emphasis on promoting love of God, family and country. Somehow we lost this.

        Is this a better world, I unfortunately feel we are lost, can we go back to our roots? can we take responsibility instead of finding excuses and stop the Political Correctness that has taken away our very right to speak.

        Example: It is now acceptable for people to walk around naked with body paint, it is a right to promote pornography, look at hollywood and the music industry the profane and demoralizing lyrics of songs played in the stores, the indecency of dress. All this and so much more is in part the culprit to the CD of our time.

        I believe we all start out selfish, out of need, yes. Where things go fundametanly wrong is in the improper love and nurturing of the child. Its called gernerational sin. Where is the mother and father they are at work, they drop the child off at the daycare. The child should be with the parent rather than a stranger and become the latch key child.

        However, in this world we have become dependent on 2 incomes to have more instead of the realizing the gift of the child and the child’s needs, to become a responsible well rounded individual. The child is pawned off in many instances to their own devices and others to care for their child.

        In so many instance the child is raised by single mothers. Mothers per se that have “NO Clue” how and what it takes to be a mother. Our society has become a society that accepts this behavior as normal in this day and age. Children that never know a father figure.

        Many children are raised in families where drugs, alcohol, promiscuity and profane language is the norm and they are thrown in front of the TV to keep the child busy the boob tube is their baby sitter and parent their ultimate teacher.

        Children that can do no wrong and put on a pedestal, the selfish little prima donnas. In these scenarios do we create CD individuals and narcissists, are psychopaths born? In my experience I have found that the majority of CD want to stay stuck in time, they also don’t want to accept the fact they are not that and more and the other ones that are gifted are not that and more. Their gifts are a gift and many rather than being grateful for being fortunate enough for their gifts are narcissistic.

        I have more to say but limited time. Blessings

        1. Valencia and BTOV,

          Both your comments are interesting. I babysit my grandson 1 l/2 years old. I’m very playful and silly, and so is he. I can understand the pokey business. and BTOV I knew what was coming with the biting. Works every time.
          I’m so fortunate to have little grandbaby to bring me joy even on my most stressful days. He refocuses me to what is here and now – there are many good things in life to enjoy.
          I hope I do a good job with him. He doesn’t have a “father”. His grandfather, my STBX is a nut job. His other grandfather is a good man. My daughter has some nice male friends. Who knows how he will turn out with all these male figures. I hope he will be fine. I think better a few good male figures than one major bad one.

          1. Jackie,

            I WON on every issue. They were temporary issues — but still, in my favor. High Five!
            Now, as much as I want to scream victory, as BTOV keeps warning me, I must keep my mouth zipped.

          2. Lucy congrats on winning! And I hope your grandson does find some good male role models. Sometimes a teacher, a coach, a best-friends parent etc can have an important role in a childs life.

            But we can only do our best with what we have and it’s not always ideal. Usually our best is pretty good!

          3. Lucy,
            It is very important even if all the others are dysfunction he has someone that love him and takes the time to listen is moral, ,strong honest and positive a role model. For him to know and be secure in your love for him.

            I am happy for you. A good read for you is: Splitting by Bill Eddy
            He is a attorney, mediator and clinical social worker. He has written several other books which I imagine are as good as Splitting. Really this is a good book for you to read Now. He has worked on these type of divorces.

            I am happy for you at this juncture and will pray that all turns out well. Blessings and (Hugs)

          4. Lucy,

            Good for you! Things do bode well for future.

            A CD hates losing battle of the day. He doesn’t mind losing the war.
            Avoid falling in the same trap. Your approach should be opposite. In the end, what matters is that you get him permanently out of your life with least amount of damage to yourself.

        2. BTOV,

          “The majority of CD’s want to stay stuck in time”

          Meloy – “The wall was built to last”

          Me – Their characters are set in aspic.

          I think high end Psychopaths are born, but their differentials are shaped by upbringing and life experience.

        3. BTOV,

          Our son was fascinated by the washing machine:) We had a job getting him away from it when a cycle was rockin’.

          Common among Autistic folk.

        4. Hi BTOV,

          Thanks for the reply and I’m glad we can have a constructive debate. 🙂

          About the funny face. I actually make a painful squished up face as anyone would do when being poked in the eye. To my 10 month old I think it looks like a funny face. I think at this age babies are understanding cause and effect and my making a face when she pokes me in the eye is not too different from her finding amusemen when she bangs her toy on the floor and it makes a noise. I started turning away and saying “ouch” and coming back with a sad face but I don’t think she really gets it. I just stop playing or back away for a minute when she does it.

          But at 10 months I’m not going to start attributing labels to this behavior. A sadistic narcissist finds enjoyment in the power and superiority to have control over others and enflict them pain. I don’t think that’s what’s going on here lol.

          I’m not going to start worrying about “callous unemotional traits” that kids show in conduct disorder because it’s not age appropriate.

          As for the little girl biting, I actually think this is really interesting. Particularly because her response to modify her behavior was not due to any kind of negative consequence but specifically to biting. I think what you actually taught her is to use her empathy. It’s when she could understand and hopefully what it feels and internalizes the experience of another that she can reassess her behavior. Trust me narcissists don’t do this! This is a healthy child with a healthy capacity for empathy who just needs to be guided on how to use it.

          A narcissist or even a child who is already developing narcissistic traits is more likely to think along the lines of, “my behavior is justified because of …(insert egocentric rationalisation)… and I’m being victimized by having to face any kind of consequence”.

          I just think it’s a bit of a stretch to say narcissistic traits apply to children. And it’s confusing and starts to blur the lines in terms of what the underlying processes are behind the two behaviors. I can say my car is “red” and an apple is “red”. Yes two objects have similar traits on the surface. But is a fair comparison? Not really. It could just cause confusion. It’s a crude example but it describes the logic I’m trying to follow.

          Let’s not use pathologic labels to describe healthy kids please. My 10 month old is not sadistic until she learns not to inflict pain on others for amusement. Does her behavior need to be shaped? Absolutely! But until it is, let’s give kids the fair benefit of understanding their innocence and naivety. It’s totally different from the distorted, delusional thinking of narcissists.

          The point is I guess, I don’t think we should substitute the words selfishness, or self-centeredness with narcissism wherever we see a similar behavior. This can create unnecessary confusion. Selfishness can occur for many many different reasons not only narcissism.

          1. Valencia,
            I didn’t realize your little one was 10 months I must had missed it .
            At every stage formation is going on. I would even at this point question the food we eat all genetically modified and the chemicals they spray.

            Yes, I am glad we can discuss in a civil manner. I like to call it banter and have gone around with some of the former posters. In the end we all smiled and were sisters.

            Deffiniton according to Dorland’s Illustrated Medical Dictionary:

            Primary narcissism — that occurring in the infantile phase of object relationship development, when the child has not differentiated himself from the outside world and regards all sources of pleasure as originating within himself.

            Secondary narcissism — that in which the libido, once attached to external love objects, is redirected back to the self.

            Valencia, I believe Dr. Simon is talking about primary narcissism
            that all children have. This is no means to be taken in a derogatory sense. In the medical field we have all been compartmentalized. I don’t like having a psychiatric label attached to me but unfortunately that is how it is done.

            If you want to look at this in the terms and for me the christian we are all born as sinners. However, our conduct boils down to our own choice and to me that is at the age I understood right from wrong. As we grow older the responsibility and ownership of that behavior is even more important.

            Unfortunately, we live in a society that also makes excuses for most bad behavior and many times the victim is left in the shadows because we now analyze and feel sorry for the perpetrator.

            Have you read Dr. Simons book the Judas Syndrome?

            There are so many things that form a child, I think it is of ultimate importance that the mother stays home with the child and there is a strong father figure. We are our children’s parents when we become their “friends” we lose sight of the respect of the mother, father role.


          2. Valencia,

            Remember the old saying, “Kids can be cruel”?

            I’ve met some of my old bullies from School, they were HORRIBLE, and that’s an understatement, when i saw them i dreaded passing them, but all of them (the few i have met at least) have turned out to be pretty cool people, a couple even apologized, one girl who stood out was transformed, i could not believe this was the same girl at all!

            Now you could say they were faking the nice behaviour, but i prefer to take these encounters at face value.

            10 Months, lol, no, don’t worry.

            One funny story concerning our Son was when he was around that age, he had a large clear plastic bell like toy with smaller silver bells in it, i was sitting on the floor playing with him when all of a sudden i literally saw stars, he had clouted me over the head with it, he didn’t laugh though, he just looked at me puzzled; this is the same boy who wouldn’t dream of hurting anyone now, he is very gentle.

          3. Valencia,
            Many times people post so fast and many things that are said are lost in the thread. I know you were talking about your MIL. Did you also divorce your husband?

            Good reads, Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller –
            Dr. Miller wrote several good books about her studies on children and wrote about her own dysfunctional childhood. Dr. Shengold in Soul Murder writes about the child too. Very good reading.

            The title Soul Murder of the Narcissist is so true in many cases. Should we feel compassion. You can easily fall victim to the sad stories of their childhoods. But the Narcissist will also perpetrate Soul Murder on YOU. So be very careful feeling compassion.

            I feel pity for their lost Souls, I forgive them but I will not feel sorry for them, if they get the chance they will destroy you, never forget this. I want to feel compassion and sorry for them at times, this weakness could possibly be your demise depending on the degree of pathology. Whatever, you do never, ever, forget who and what you are dealing with!

          4. Thanks BOTV

            No my husband and I are in a good place. He definitely has problems some probably genetic and others from childhood trauma of life with a psycho and suicide of his father but I think he has the capacity to work through it and he has made a lot of progress. I have had to learn to detach from his issues when they come up and accept this is his journey. He’s not controlling or abusive he can just be very intense and overreact. I would say he’s closest to borderline personality but I’m not totally sure. He can be very sensitive and empathic. It’s confusing. But there’s a LOT of good in our relationship. And we’re both growing.

            As for his P mom. I felt the outrage and judgment I was harbouring for her was keeping stuck to her bad vibes. I think it’s important to see things for what they are and that these people are disordered but don’t judge another until you walk in their shoes. The compassion helped me cleanse a lot of the bad vibes out of my system. But this is not to say I would ever expose myself or my daughter to her again. She will always be a dangerous person. I’m not going to allow her to use these feelings in me to sucker me back in. I know what she is and she can stay far far away lol. The compassion was a way of letting it go.

          5. BTOV

            I’ll have to take a look at primary and secondary narcissism and what is said about their relationship to what we understand now as pathological narcissism.

  10. Jackie,

    Once again, not sure about a forum full of people labeling themselves psychopaths. The initial listed types could be copypasted here, though, as Millon seems to see them as.


    The Unprincipled Psychopath

    Activities kept near or at the boundaries of the law; stereotyped social roles; con man, charlatan, fast-talking used car salesman.

    Expansive fantasies and exaggerated sense of self-importance.

    Willing to take advantage of and humiliate those who leave themselves open to deceit.

    May cultivate persuasiveness or charm as a means of getting others to lower their guard, but sees all prosocial behaviour as ultimately self-serving.

    Contemptuous of “the system”; working “the system” to avoid punishment seen as just “part of the game”.

    The Covetous Psychopath

    Sees self as wronfully deprived of life’s neccessities, leading to envy and resentment.

    Compensates by taking what he or she is entitled to as a means of revenging wrong and restoring “karmic balance” in life.

    Sees self as a victim of external forces, misunderstood by others and by society.

    Manipulates others as a meaning of proving own superiority, as well as avenging attributions of worthlessness.

    Smug and contemptuous toward victims, who may be viewed as pawns in the larger game.

    Prone to ostentatious displays of conspicuous consumption.

    The Risk-Taking Psychopath

    Chronic underarousal leads to risk-taking as means of “feeling alive”.

    Fails to realize the consequences of risk-taking; believes that social rules are unnecessarily confining of own sense of adventure.

    Eschews normal desire for safety as evidence of cowardice.

    Proves own mettle as a means of proving self-esteem and worthiness to self and others.

    The Disingenuous Psychopath

    Superficial sociability (or even seductiveness) hides an impulsive, moody and resentful core.

    Emotionally labile, prone to excitement-seeking, stimulus-dependant behaviour, lacking in forethought, with a high potential for painful consequences.

    Rationalizes and projects blame onto others when attempts to solicit attention go awry.

    The Spineless Psychopath

    Aggression not intrinsically rewarding; psychopathic acts intended to (show? convince? demonstrate to?) others that the psychopath is not weak.

    Has first-strike mentality; strikes whenever own fearfulness peaks (perhaps in episodes of panic), regardless of objective degree of threat.

    Experiences fantasies of vulnerability; sees others as sadistic or exploiting.

    The Abrasive Psychopath

    Prefers to be overtly contentious, confrontational, antagonistic rather than indirectly manipulative.

    Expects hostility from others, and pre-empts insults with own abrasiveness.

    Prefers to escalate arguments; experiences pleasure by frustrating others, making them back down.

    Inherently oppositional to any form of emotional control; seeks to break constraints simply because they exist.

    The Tyrannical Psychopath

    Realizes pleasure through total control of others.

    Employs violence instrumentally, to force perceived opponents to cower or submit.

    Projects image of power or brutality; supports self-image of power and superiority by inflicting pain and suffering, if not power.

    The Explosive Psychopath

    Low frustration threshold, resulting in episodes of uncontrollable rage and violent attack.

    Episodes may be instantaneous reaction to frustration or perceived insult, and thus may be perceived by others as random and unprovoked.

    The Malevolent Psychopath

    Hateful, destructive defiance of values of social life.

    inherently distrustful, ruthless, cold-blooded, revengeful, punitive.

    The Malignant Psychopath

    Often isolated, paranoid, with ruminative fantasies of power and revenge.

    Sees others as inherently persecutory or treacherous.

    Uses hostility as a means of armoring self, forcing adversaries to take issue and withdraw.

      1. BTOV,

        The Meloy books are The Psychopathic Mind and The Mark of Cain.

        I believe he is quite religious also:)

        One word of advice, don’t read the first mentioned book at night, it’s horrifying enough to consider in daylight.

  11. Lucy,

    I have replied on the previous thread but WELL DONE! Fantastic news, you must be SO relieved!

    Remain silent, keep your own counsel except with your Attorney.

    Enjoy the ass whooping Mr Pasty:)

    1. AndyD, or Timothy
      Could you please tell me why in some responses there is no reply. Many times I am in dealing in so many fronts its easier to just ask? Andy, Kudos to your response to Lucy. Timothy, hope you saw the books I listed, just the tip of the iceberg.
      You all are a great bunch!!!!!!!!!!!

        1. AndyD,
          I did and still don’t get it! Laugh, Laugh and I don’t know how to make the faces either. Most the time I have happy faces here. (Hugs)

  12. I agree that people can post here so fast, sometimes somewhere near the same time that it’s easy to lose track of everything discussed here.

    Unless there’s something else, too, BTOV must be refering to Splitting by Bill Eddy, Drama of the Gifted Child by Alice Miller and Soul Murder by Leonard Shengold(looked it up).

    To think of it, what is a soul, anyway?

    1. Timothy,
      Great Idea, maybe, if the Webmaster could show all the names of posters for a day. I am going to be gone all day. When I come home I try to play catchup. The suggestion is good too, for the fact if we get a new poster who posts on an archived topic they may get lost without being answered. If a someone posts in the middle of a topic we lose comment too.

    2. BTOV, I disagree with showing the actual names of posters. I think most posters here wish to share their experiences, empathy and suggestions feeling safe from someone googling their names and finding them here, perhaps even getting ammunition for gossip.

      1. Yes Timothy it’s best to be safe. I use my real first name, and am happy with that. Although my full name is used on youtube, no trouble so far but wonder if i should change it?

  13. Timothy,
    Our soul is our being, our life force, our emotions our spirit of love, sadness, joy, it is the essence of our being. There is a lot of soul on this blog from the individuals who pour out their emotions and loving their hands that we extent to others to help them. Soul is the essence of Dr. Simons work to help others find their way who are lost. Dr. Simon gives freely from his heart, soul and mind.

    It is who we are, so deep inside, a place that no one can take from us. In Christianity this is the place where Jesus resides at least for me. This is a place where one can kill me physically but they cannot take my soul my being.. This what drove Victor Frankl in the concentrations camps to live. The Natzi’s could not touch his soul and this inner strength drove him to save many, the soul /spirit kept so many alive.

    Timothy, our soul and spirit is our total essence. When we look at the CDNSP this is why we see a shallow, vacant person. They are empty, when you look into their eyes you can see their is no soul. They are lost.

    In the creation/formation of the child the spirit of the children can be broken, it is smothered and killed/murdered by the abusive parent. Deep down inside many of these individuals hid and created the mask to hide behind. Soul murder can also be used to kill the souls of the victims these individuals target too.

    Deep inside so many of the CD and victims have covered their souls with layers upon of layers of thick skins to survive. The individuals here, so many that are victims of the CD are survivors, we know the crazy making, the denial, the raw hate and mind control these individuals were using on us. The CD are soul snatchers, vampires, destroyers who are out to steal our being/essence/soul from us.

    I hope I have explained to you a little of what soul is. Timothy it is the inner being of what make one beautiful and shine. You are shining your soul when you give of yourself like you do on this blog. (Hugs) and Blessings dear soul.

    Timothy, I am going to ask this question of some others and will post again on it and I hope all the others will chime in. There are a lot of loving souls on this blog.

    1. BYOV
      My whole body has the chills and am on the verge of tears. (But I’m at Panera Bread. Can’t cry here!). You yet again described eloquently what the soul is.
      The thick walls you spoke of – I build it and try to break it at the same time. I need to protect myself but at the same time not lose myself to become an unemotional person. It’s difficult.

      1. Lucy
        Stay here and we will all rally around you just like I know all of you will be there for me. This is Dr. Simons blog and he brings out the best in people. Any good that I do is not of myself it is the power of my belief in Christ to help another. There is a peace on this blog that I have not found on any other.

        Has anyone noticed Suzie yet? I pray her eye surgery went well.

        LisaO, you bring so much too, like I said your an anchor.

        1. BTOV,

          I would hope that if any really nasty, toxic people turn up here, they will be removed.

          We have all seen them in action.

          1. Jackie,
            They have turned up and most the time they don’t last and Dr. Simon does try to filter them out. I will say Vera has a real nose for Trolls.
            Thanks Vera, miss your posts.

    2. BTOV
      This is a beautiful description. I also have a lot of faith but I’m not religious. I take what resinates from a lot of different beliefs.

      I actually think there’s nothing like narcissistic abuse to jolt you into a spiritual awakening. When your heart breaks and your soul hurts in that very particular way you suddenly become very aware of it’s existence.

      Have you read Kierkegaard by any chance? He was a danish philosopher who was highly criticised for having too much of a christian faith. He wrote “Fear and Trembling” and “The Sickness Into Death” which deal faith and despair and what I think is a very insightful christian and spiritual perspective of what we’ve come to understand as “narcissism”. It really is a sickness of the soul and a type of despair. Same goes for the victim mind frame.

      It’s a bit of a terrible read as it’s a 19th century philosophical translation but one can find summaries and comments on line to get the gist.

      I truly learned what it is to have faith from his work. To resign yourself completely and surrender. While having faith in God. I’ve survived indescribable adversity like this. Solid as a rock in a hurricane. Anchored in faith. Sometimes when we start to despair we think we have to control everything and we struggle so much to swim upstream to our own demise. I’ve learned how to let go when needed, and just have faith in God.

  14. Btov,

    Thanks for sending such warm thoughts my way! You are a doll. You have been through so much and continue to have major challenges, yet still very concerned about the welfare of others. You are an inspiration.

  15. Hi Valencia,

    Will respond later. Thank you for joining us here with your insightful comments. You seem to have a lot more knowledge of the subject than I do but I am happy to share my opinions with you and all for what they’re worth!

    1. LisaO

      We all have little bits of information to share. I’ve been lead on many interesting trails from people posting here!

  16. I believe there is something else when we die, a lot of strange things have happened whenever i was in the presence of my best friend, like she was a kind of conduit of sorts.

    BTOV, in light of your faith, what do you make of the following story.

    My best friend and her Father always holidayed up in Norfolk, England every Summer; he had been ill just before they were due to go, and died before the date of departure, he really loved fishing and was very much looking forward to it.

    The accommodation had small gardens that backed directly onto the river, and every year this is where her father Les could be found. She decided to go anyway, in memory if you will.

    One day she was doing some shopping, and she got talking to two friends they had made up there over the years, they said they had seen her Father the other day fishing while they were cruising down the broads in their boat, they would have been only a few yards from where he would have sat had he been alive.

    They said that they had waved at him, and he waved back; my friend replied, “You couldn’t have seen Les, he’s been dead for two weeks”.

    They went into shock…..

    Now i tell this not to derail, but i am genuinely interested in what happened here, was his soul hanging around doing the one thing he loved more in all thr world?

    1. Perhaps rational explanations feel dismissive and let’s face it, people can have very odd experiences out of the blue that don’t seem to make sense. An emotional explanation may be better than none at all. I’d think they could’ve mistaken another, similar-looking person, who just happened to be at the same spot, for Les. That good old synchronicity?

      But I think concepts relating to soul and other related things are helpful metaphors in a world that can feel bleak, cold, dehumanizing and soul-less.

      I posted this in response to one post ages ago. Perhaps you appreciate it, too.

      1. Timothy, Jackie,
        Timothy, are you suggesting we all buy another book case with all this suggested reading? WoW!!!!!!!

        Jackie, there are many things in this world that can’t be explained, and things that happen way beyond mans comprehension that are unexplainable and a mystery.

        I believe in this instance Timothy gave you a very simplistic and reasonable answer for what happened. When one dies, many individuals emotions run high and things that would had been logical and explainable then become unreal at times and unexplainable. We see and hear things due to the stress, sadness, anxiety, the extreme loss etc,….

        There are mysteries though.

        1. Hi BTOV,

          Well the couple that had seen Les didn’t know he had died, as they were very casual friends that were pally with my friend and her father only when they were up in Norfolk holidaying. And only if they saw one another shopping or passing in the street.

          Just ‘hello, how are you, goodbye’ sort of thing. These acquaintances knew the chalet to look out for, my friend and her dad had the same one every year; the boat, (they had a large one) would have passed by very close to the ledge where Les used to fish; that’s what made the whole incident very unnerving for me.

          I’m guessing my friend wasen’t there at the time, certainly not out in the garden, to think she may have been inside the chalet not having a clue as to what happened outside.

          The dog Lady used to roll around underneath Les’s old chair at home in London, as if an invisible hand was playing with her, she’d never done that before, creepy stuff! Although her behaviour could be explained i suppose, used to give me the shivers.

      2. Oh, I didn’t mean everyone should necessarily start reading Timothy Conway’s listed readings, too. I just thought Jackie might be interested and what I just linked could be relevant to her. I took quite a risk that I’d be way outside the usual discussion.

  17. Thanks Timothy,

    Yes that seems like a fairly good explanation for this, i can easily accept this is what happened. There were indeed people who used the gardens to fish, a lot of people went there for holidays for some fishing as they had direct access to the Norfolk broads, which are a series of large rivers.

    Although, they were only feet from him, those boats came scarily close sometimes.

    The thing that puzzled me a bit was my friends reaction, when she told me she was completely unfazed by it, and she stayed there alone for the rest of the holiday; i would have packed and got back to London quick smart. Maybe she found it comforting and she WAS still grieving of course.

    I will have a look at that link, i am interested in NDE’s and OBE’s as well.

    1. Just adding they had the same chalet every year, so the people in the boat would have known exactly where Les sat, as they had been going up there for around 5 years.

    2. Jackie,

      Glad you like.

      Also, people can get mistaken for someone else. Happens constantly. Has happened to me many times. It can feel a bit spooky if it happens too many times in too little time, but it’s no big deal.

      1. Timothy,

        Identical twins make me feel a bit uneasy, especially if they’re wearing the same clothes.

        How can you do links, i’ve tried but they never work:(

        I’ve got some interesting websites and articles that some people may not have seen.

      2. I simply copy the links. Not sure why yours don’t seem to get through. Very odd.

        As for identical twins, I think of those creepy twins in The Shining saying “Come play with us, Danny. Forever.”

    3. Jackie,
      I do believe in demons/evil spirits. There was a period I didn’t, however, just look at this world and I have no other answers for it.

      As far as the links go, I am very poor at this too. I believe you highlight the link, find where in your program or perhaps under edit to a Cut, then got to the are you want to place the link, open the edit again and click paste?

      Perhaps, if you play around with it a bit, also if you do a google search it may take you through the steps.

      Good luck!

      1. Hi BTOV,

        I can try google, good idea, never thought of that, thank you. I tried most of the other stuff but it just doesn’t take, the share button doesn’t do anything on this computer either. Mind you the computer is ancient lol.

        Regarding the demons and evil spirits, i really have an open mind to this, maybe in some cases they were formally living people?

        My Son used to say some very strange stuff when very small, prediction like things; once when he was in bed he said that he could see what we were doing in the front room, and mentioned the fact that the TV was on, but no sound. Now we had the lights on, so how he could have known that i don’t know; when we asked where he was when seeing this, he pointed to a corner of the ceiling; we just replied this was interesting but shook us quite a bit.

        Nothing happens like this now, it faded as he got into his early teens, thank goodness.

          1. Wow BTOV,

            I am going to try this later, i’ll sift through some articles and try my luck! You will see the results if i’m successful:)

            You’re a gem!

      2. Right click the link and copy it then paste it where you want it. To copy something highlight it and hit control C then wherever you want to paste it place it there and hit Control V.

        1. Thanks Lucy, on the other computer i was able to post links, but in this one i can’t for some reason, it IS an older model cos i swapped with my Son, as he plays games and it was a wee bit faster, so this is an old thing, born 2001 lol!

    1. Oh heck, perhaps it wasn’t the best idea to mention it…

      But then again, just for balancing, if George Orwell’s classic 1984 is anything to go by, I don’t think a place without any darkness is a great place to be, either.

  18. That’s quite all right Timothy, i am a horror film fan:) I’ve never grown out of it either, although it’s harder to scare me now, too jaded; but old stuff, like the Shining and the atmosphere of the Exorcist and Omen’s still do it.

    Although that’s the difference with the shining, it wasen’t dark was it, quite light in the Overlook Hotel so didn’t rely on dark rooms or night scenes.

    A place without any dark spaces to creep away to, poor old Winston.

      1. Oh yes Misery, how i remember the ‘hobbling’….

        Silence of the Lambs was so depressing, like the SAW films; i watched the first one and decided not to watch any more.

        A documentary about the curse of the Omen on TV a while ago was chilling, detailing all the bad luck the cast and crew had during the making of it.

      2. Yup, Jackie, those kinds of coincidences can definitely have a sinister, supernatural air about them.

        The Saw films do at least initially try to have something other going on(when it comes to characters) than just disgusting standard exploitative torture porn, but at some point I can’t pinpoint because I watched them long ago the franschise just starts becoming more and more self-indulgent and over-the-top.

        If we talk about horror films, the ones that work the best, IMO, get us pondering some real-life concerns, just like other types of movies, and it doesn’t work if all the horror elements are merely gratuitious. Perhaps I’m more of a “rational”, mild temperament, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t many troubling ways life can go wrong(many of which aren’t directly related to matters most discussed here).

        1. Hi Timothy,

          I used to enjoy the slashers when a kid, but grew bored with them, i prefer more the ‘psychological horrors’ sometimes concerning material events, as you say; it reminds me of a saying my much wiser and perceptive friend at College used to say when i recounted stuff i’d read about hauntings and strange events that had a real evil feel about them.

          “There’s nothing as scary as other people”……

          She always brought me up short, and i needed it sometimes.

          I enjoy all the stuff i shouldn’t; horror, ghost stories, paranormal, but i am very highly strung, easily get nervous, and have anything but a rational brain at times; so people like her and you Timothy are good to have around to stop types like me from getting carried away.

          That said though, there ARE things i can recall that defy explanation, and other people witnessed them. I think most people can say the same.

          1. You’re welcome Timothy:)

            I notice the reply box is reversed where comment is before your details, hopefully this means things have been fixed.

  19. I’ve seen a dead person, up close–middle of the day. Clear as glass. I could count the fine lines around his eyes. I expect and appreciate people being skeptical about it when I tell them about it, though.

    There are some things that you should experience personally before ‘believing.’ I can’t give other people my experience, I can only relate it.

    My personal feeling, for what it’s worth, is that some of these beings are earth bound for some reason. Who knows why? I also think that maybe when we have very real dreams where everything makes sense, where we are walking through another landscape of sorts, we may be projecting an aspect of ourselves into that space and some of the residents therein may be able to see us. The flip side is we may be viewing dreamers that we falsely perceive as the dead.

    Anyway, a huge maybe. Anybody who claims to know for sure is, well, just too certain!

    1. OMG LisaO,

      ‘Clear as glass’, is this a saying or was the spirit transparent?

      How close were you? Did they appear TO you, did you know them?

      Wow, fascinating stuff.

      Well the Astral plane is the same as what you are describing, one book i had on medium messages said that dreamers appear drunk to spirits on that plane, they weave and stumble around the edges.

      I think there indeed are other places, realms, planes, whatever you call them.

      Your thoughts rhyme in with what i’ve read.

  20. Hi Lucy,

    Well in Northern England there is a saying “Clear as mud”, meaning the opposite of course, or the more general “Clear as day” so…..

    But WAS this person literally see-through?

    LisaO come back and tell us.

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