Manipulators Are Covert Aggressors

The Heart of Assertiveness

We’ve been talking about the fighting we all do in our daily lives. And I’ve pointed out the importance to our character of learning to fight rightly and fairly. Assertive individuals fight for their legitimate wants and needs. But they fight with principle and care not to needlessly injure. They respect the rights and needs of others. And they fight fairly and with sound purpose. But the manipulators among us fight unscrupulously and underhandedly. They also fight for strictly self-serving purposes. And that kind of fighting always damages relationships.

The Heart of Manipulation

Manipulators are covert-aggressors. They fight in ways that make it difficult to clearly see their aggression. They’re out to win, dominate, and control, to be sure. But they don’t want to be seen that way. So they cloak their aggression. If you knew what they were really up to, they’d run a higher risk of being resisted. And if you knew what they were really like, you’d be more wary of them. That’s why they hide their true nature and true intentions. Manipulators are the proverbial wolves in sheep’s clothing.

Covert aggressors know that if they can convince you they’re doing anything but fighting, they’re more likely to win. And they count on the conscientiousness of their victims. They prey on those with a sound conscience. They know, for example, that folks with a big conscience are sensitive to guilt and shame. So, if they can make you feel guilty or ashamed, they’ll hold sway.

Manipulators and the “Gaslighting” Effect

It’s not easy to see the inherent aggression in the tactics manipulators typically use. So victims often experience what has come to be known as the “gaslighting” effect. Dealing with a skilled manipulator can make you feel crazy. You know in your heart there’s something not right about them. But their artful use of tactics has you thinking you  have the problem. Manipulation (i.e. covert-aggression) is truly crazy-making behavior. (See also my other articles on gaslighting and the gaslighting effect.)

Learning to Manipulate

We’re all natural-born fighters. But we have to learn when and when not to fight. And we have to learn how to fight rightly, fairly, and with principle and proper restraint. That’s why heeding the “8th commandment” of sound character development is so important. Manipulators unfortunately over-learned the benefits of covert fighting. They found deceiving others about their true intentions the best way to overcome resistance and have their way. And they became too adept at fighting subtly and stealthily. They learned well that certain tactics would likely bring a conscientious person to submission. And bringing others to submission is just the way aggressors – both overt and covert – like it.

A Few Extra Words

I’ll be departing from the current topic next week in lieu of the holiday and the importance of it’s message.

Character Matters will air live this Sunday, November 20, 2016 at 7 pm Eastern Time. You can also download the podcast at UCY.TV or on YouTube. Call in at (718) 717-8296 and join the conversation. With the election now behind us, there’s lots to talk about!

Many regard In Sheep’s Clothing as the definitive guide to understanding manipulators and how to deal with them.  And you can learn more about the effects of gaslighting on relationships in How Did We End Up Here?


113 thoughts on “Manipulators Are Covert Aggressors

  1. I would like to AGAIN THANK Dr Simon. You have just described my entire relationship I had with my the mother/grandmother. If only I had listened to my gut feelings. I would not have waisted all those years. When those CD’s loose the fight as my the
    grandmother /mother did with my uncle.

    They NEVER EVER stop and think about making positive changes, they just get More and More deceitful, scheming, devious and cunning.

    1. Mine too. This website and all you people have been a life saver. To realise that I’m not the only one to have gone through this and to realise there is light at the end of the tunnel is very reassuring. I was with my STBEXH for 20 years. He wooed me, made me laugh, he was the life and sole. However, He had been very manipulative and controlling and had always distorted things to make out it was either for my benefit (e.g. Not having access to the joint account that my wages were paid into, removing my name of the mortgage and business).
      It came to an end 18 months ago when I confronted him about a suspected affair – of which he obviously denied, calling me paranoid, dillusional, insecure etc. (By the way he is co-habiiting with this person now).
      Having left I went through ever emotion you can think of. But the scariest thing was the realisation that I had been gaslighted for years. But also enlightening to know I wasn’t losing my marbles… it was all his games. It’s taking a while for me not to be angry with myself for allowing this to happen to me. How could I have been so stupid? I should have seen the signs – I have a bi-polar relive with a narcissistic personlity disorder… how could I not see what he was doing to me? How could I have not questioned his total lack of remorse or empathy?
      Even now there are days when I realise that things he did were all part of his narcissistic manipulation. I am no longer upset for the marriage I have lost or the person I thought I’d married. I am glad to have my sanity and my freedom. But I am upset that someone who took vows, made promises to me could be so darn right nasty. It’s the mental abuse that I think it’s the most unforgivable (it’s not a very charitable way to be, to not forgive, but I’m not ready for that, and he doesn’t deserve it).
      I now have a huge legal battle going on. We have to teenage children for whom I am trying to get back my equity to buy us a home – I paid the mortgage and bills for years. He doesn’t declare his true income or assets as he gets paid cash so even getting maintenance for our kids is an ongoing battle. He shows no wish to sort things out so we can put an end to it. It still all about control I know. He’s suppose to sell what was the family home but he keeps making excuses not to. He doesn’t even live there now! I’m paying a fortune in rent but cannot bring myself to move me and kids back in there to save money. Mentally it would be the worse thing for all three of us. I have only just started seeing a possible end to the nightmare that my doctor says is more than likely PTSD. I lost 3 stone in weight and am desperately trying to stabilise it as now I’m painfully thin.
      I’m just so worried that all this will leave me and my two children emotionally damaged long term. He has moved on, another home, relationship, but will not settle so we can do the same.
      I have tried to explain to my solicitor that it is a fruitless exercise to appeal to his better nature as he doesn’t have one. My solicitor has sympathy in bucket loads but very little understanding of his need for manipulation and control. I cannot get the divorce finalised until we have the finances settled. Yet more control. What’s more is It’s so frustrating that everyone thinks he such a nice guy – if only they knew.
      I have more good Days than bad. Phew! All contact is through the solicitors. He’s not very interested inseeing his children anymore, sadly. It’s sporadic at best. It upsets the youngest sometime but the oldest deals with it differently.
      I’m hoping that one day I can go somewhere without the gut wrenching worry of bumping in to him. Even from a distance it makes me feel sick when I see his car. Is this normal?
      Anyway. Just writing this down in words, is kind of strange. I have hidden it as I felt so ashamed. I didn’t even talk to my best friend… now she know everything. And has been an absolute rock for me.
      I am now vetting the people in my life very carefully as I nolonger trust my instinct.
      Sorry for dribbling on… it helps to talk to people that will know what I’ve gone through and can’t necessarily verbalise. Any advice on recovery grateful received. X

  2. I recently described an incident about someone I consider a covert-aggressive manipulator who is partnered with a person whom I will refer to as Mr. La-La Land. Mr. La-La Land said to me “she says things with tongue in cheek”. By definition it means without really meaning what one is saying or writing.
    Mr. La-La Land most assuredly didn’t come up with this phrase himself so Mrs. La-LanLand (nee) Covert Aggressor has convinced him her words are simply taken the wrong way. In the end she’s removed accountability in one fell swoop.

    I guess my question is this. If someone hurts you by action or speech and you call them out on it how does one defend oneself when they say “oh it was meant with tongue in cheek, you misunderstood”.

    1. “oh it was meant with tongue in cheek, you misunderstood”.

      He is Rationalizing, Making Excuses , He is also lying and Projecting the blame i.e oh it was meant
      He is Guilt Tripping you i.e you misunderstood
      He is Minimizing i.e with tongue in cheek,

      Buy a copy of ” In Sheep’s Clothing” and read it about 100 times over and over.
      It does cut the BS , And can when you call them out MASSIVE FIREWORKS.
      I Had the IT MOTHER clasp her head and SCREAM, When you confront their tactics
      DC’S are volatile so take care if you confront them, THEY DO NOT LIKE BEING CALLED A LIAR, even though they are.

  3. When my CD husband would say something and I called him out on it he would said “I was joking.” Is say there is no punch line. That’s not a joke. I was taught by my counselor how to confront SB (shitbag). She said “keep after him till you get your answer “. He would use anger, all sorts of tactics to not answer. Your LaLa uses tactic to make you back off, you described one of many. Keep on him. Don’t back down and walk away. That is what he wants you to do. The more you do this the easier it gets. Let him know you are onto him. I believe Dr Simon has a chapter which describes tactics CDs use. You might want to do a search.

      1. Andy, Lucy,
        There are different approaches to each individuals situation and many times it takes calm reflection and the help of skilled counselor to help make the decision. I couldn’t agree more, “if you do walk away, the walk away permanently and practice no contact.”

        Lucy, take the alternative route Lucy doesn’t back down and walk away. Lucy was able to assess her situation and was able to handle it. A difficult judgement call and all I can say is Lucy you have a backbone of steel to take on SB. We are all pulling for you to get through this.

        Hang in there, Kindred Spirits, you are an inspirations to all. You too, Andy and Joey. I can’t agree more with Dr. Simon’s book
        In Sheep’s Clothing. I just gave a copy to my neighbor who just went through a divorce with a CD wife, he said the book in all it’s simplicity described his X exactly, things he was confused about became clear.

        1. My special SB had never, in the 30+ years that I have known him, become physically violent with me, so I was not afraid of him in a physical way. Plus, I was deeply angered by what I had become aware of his dealings in our marriage, along with the fact that I now knew that his “anger” towards me when I would direct questions to him was not anger at all, but just another manipulative tactic to get me to back off.
          So all tolled, I pretty much went at him like a lioness, which is how I felt inside. I wouldn’t recommend this behavior to anyone. Everyone’s situation is different. I felt I was getting an upper hand on his behavior and attitude and dealings towards me, and it was my time to call him on the things he’d done. I have to say there was loads of pent up anger. I left him shortly after. I could not stay in a hostile, sick environment with that loser.

          1. Same here Lucy, I did exactly the same with my former CD friend. Years of pent up anger got expelled suddenly and unleashed in one giant outburst. Once I was free of her misery I let it rip. This is of course in hindsight not a good strategy as by doing so you have played right into their psycho hands.

            The money she owes me is in the hands of a lawyer friend of mine now. I’ve given him In Sheep’s Clothing to read. I am going to maintain my NO CONTACT stance with her and I have instructed him to make sure she understands any communication is to go through him.

    1. I am married to a CD and it is impossible to get away from him. He has been gaslighting me for 20 years and I always knew something was wrong but was so caught up with life (raising children, work etc..) that I never had any clarity. Now I have complete clarity and I realize my husband exhibits almost every CD trait in A Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing! Now that I confront him he just goes into every manipulative tactic and it’s exhausting!!! My biggest problem is staying calm. I am trying so hard and keep telling myself to keep calm and focused. He is excellent at going everywhere but the truth. He can’t ever say the truth, I think it would kill him. He will contradict himself within one sentence. I’ll call him on it and he lies. Like I said exhausting. What do you do when you can’t get away from these types of people? I find myself becoming reclusive with no hope of ever coming out of this. Divorce is not an option now. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

      1. epiphany,

        It is tough living with a CD. It’s good you now realize what is happening. My boss used to say “forewarned is forearmed”. You already know you cannot change him. I would not let him know what you’re reading. I know what you’re going through. I’ve gone through the same. The counselor told me “____ is the most evasive person I have ever met in my practice.” And she was talking of over 30 years of practice as a counselor.
        Since divorce is not an option (for now anyway – please do not give up hope – there are ways) I know what I’d have to do, and that is ignore him. “live” in separate areas of the house. I just wouldn’t engage him period. Why bother? Who wants to have a conversation full of fallacies and abusive tactics?
        I’d take this time to delve into your financials, procure the best job you can get, squirrel away money, possibly go to college of get some job training. I don’t know your earning potential, but in the long run you will need a job and benefits.
        You can take this time to focus on yourself and your needs.
        Don’t give up on yourself. He does not own you. You may have to stay married, but there are still things you can do for yourself.
        If you’ve been staying in the house all the time and ignoring your friends and family, you can reconnect. Get out in the world the best you can. Do not let this marriage enslave you.
        Keep reading. You are on the right track and I’d love to keep hearing from you.

        1. Thank you Lucy. Your suggestions are greatly appreciated. It is comforting to know others have experienced this and can give practical and useful advice. I cannot tell you how how many counselors I have been to that have no idea what they are talking about and have even been manipulated by him!!! Until I read Dr. Simon’s book I had no clarity. Like I mentioned, I knew something was wrong, just could not put my finger on it! Until someone has experienced this type of behavior, it is really hard to explain without sounding crazy until you, the person being manipulated completely understands what is going on. I feel very stupid for being so naive and trusting in the good nature of people. Or so I thought the good nature of people!!

          Thank you again for your comments. I am hanging in there!

          1. You will be ok. Now that you’re aware you can change how you react – or more like don’t react – to his craziness. Keep reading dr Simon’s articles. And id have as little contact with husband as possible. It does not help to call him out on his behavior. The entire conversation will be a mind f— Yeah I beat myself up for being naive. You’re supposed to love and trust your spouse, right? Wrong. Not if they are unworthy of it.
            Don’t give up. With proper planning you can get out of the marriage. Meanwhile keep an eagle eye on the financials. I didn’t and now see the hundreds of thousands gone.

          2. Epiphiny – be extremely cautious. Don’t confront him on anything it’s futile. Above all don’t let him get his hands on In Sheep’s Clothing, make sure he can’t access your accounts or internet – he will use everything against you. In his eyes you are guilty of everything and nothing is his fault. He will make you out to be the crazy one in front of many people and he will gather allies I can assure you, they are the most covert persuasive assholes under the sun. She managed to almost turn my entire family bar my son against me until something happened and my mother told me what was said to her that was a total lie and I started to put the pieces together. The ones she did manage to sway have are disordered themselves. Daughter is an abject mystery but that’s another story. The level of betrayal I experienced defied belief. I could not believe what I was hearing to the point I questioned my own sanity until I saw a friend of mine who is a psychiatrist and she told me about gaslighting. She was the one who told me to go NO CONTACT in the first place. I still though at that stage had no freaking idea of the extend of their malevolence and the extent of their manipulation in order to disadvantage others in their efforts to get what they want. They don’t care who they F**&* over their only loyalties are to a means to achieve their own ends. They will throw you under a bus no matter who you are in order to get what they want, they will stop at nothing. They have no souls as far as I am concerned, they are the demonic set forth upon this plane to destroy our own souls. That might sound overly dramatic but I am a firm proponent of the Hermatic Principle “As it is above, so it is below”.

            Acquire solid knowledge and get a copy of Character Disturbance as well. That expands on In Sheep’s Clothing and gives examples of the various varieties of these individuals.

            I was extremely confused with my former CD friend until I read Character Disturbance. I couldn’t not quite reconcile with what I thought was her (what appeared to be) high level anxiety and her level of disturbance before I read Character Disturbance. She fits the mould of Mistrusting Paranoid pattern that displays a combination of neurosis and character disordered attributes. It was her in a nutshell and explains my confusion previously.

            Give them no benefit of any doubt. Your very life may be at risk. Find a therapist who is aware of CDs perhaps ask Dr Simon if he knows of any therapists in your area who you might be able to go to. Failing that continue to come here for support. I found this site to be a godsend.

            Please listen to advice of others here and know you are in good hands. We understand what you are going through.

            Many Blessings Epiphany – stay strong, don’t lose sight of who you are and above all never let your guard down.

      2. Your man sounds a lot like mine, trying to pursue the truth from these guys is exhausting & fruitless. My course of action – just assume that there’s a good chance that whatever comes out of his mouth is a lie until proven otherwise, then you can be pleasantly surprised instead of disappointed. It works for my kids (now young men) & I.
        As someone wrote elsewhere, ‘you wouldn’t treat a crocodile like a puppy.’
        “Knowing is half the battle.” – G.I.Joes

        1. Yes it is totally exhausting. Like jh says, just assume it’s probably a lie. Gets to where you don’t want any dealings with them because it’s too time-consuming/ draining to constantly have to figure out truth or lie. It’s so abnormal. I’m done with that ****. Waste of time, life and energy.

        2. Excellent action plan, firmly rooted in ground reality…

          “My course of action – just assume that there’s a good chance that whatever comes out of his mouth is a lie until proven otherwise, then you can be pleasantly surprised instead of disappointed.”

        3. jh – TO BE SURE! Aren’t they all a lot like the ones we’ve got/experienced. You’ve heard the old adage if you lay down with dogs. Well they are more like rattle snakes, play with them and you get envenomated.

          If it does even slightly resemble truth chances are excellent it won’t be the whole truth.

      1. I get that often. “It was a joke” But when I started to use that line, it wasn’t taken lightly. My situation is a little different because he reads all of these things and tells me that I’m the manipulative one. He will turn the tables quick when we’re having a discussion about how he made me feel. I’m old enough to know that you should treat people the way you want to be treated. If he wants to be treated like that, then I’m done. It’s not heathy. Why can’t people just be honest and keep the drama out of their lives. Why bring other people into your situation. What happened to compromise and harmony?

        1. A joke has a story, a punch line. It’s covert to insult a person, then when called out on it to say it was “just a joke! Relax! You’ve so sensitive!” This is even a further insult to tell you that you’re overly sensitive. It is not a joke. It’s an insult, and they find some type of pleasure insulting the other. Bad character. And as Dr. Simon says, Character Matters. Yes, it does.
          Tell him you’re onto his petty game playing of covert insults masked as a joke. And walk off. Don’t argue with him. It’s just a bunch of BS.

          1. Lucy,
            Well said. It’s always a joke when its to the CD benefit, no matter how mean and cruel, we walk away feeling hurt. On the other hand if the joke is on CD, watch the CD screaming rage and plotting of payback pal.

            It really gets sickening after awhile to have to put up with, listen to or even look at these warped CD individuals anymore.

          2. BTOV
            I have barely spoken to the SB in two years, and when I dohear the sarcastic negative crap that comes from his mouth I tense up and realize what a toxic man he is. I can still “see and hear” that smirk in his voice just by reading an email. It is sickening.

  4. I do practice no contact with the person I described. I’m not married to her and the few times I’ve interacted with her she manages somehow to be covertly rude, covertly manipulative, covertly aggressive, covertly everything. If only one person in the whole room can really see someone like this for the person they truly are then most people won’t sit still long enough to understand or validate what was witnessed. When her behavior is done “with tongue and cheek” her behavior is validated and dismissed. To cause a scene would only make her look even more credible I would just love to have a one liner to zap their brain and stun the crap out of them.

    1. covertly rude, covertly manipulative, covertly aggressive, covertly everything.

      “Please see Vulnerable narcissism/Borderline personality disorder”

      Sounds like my The mother/Grandmother. The Point again is THEY LIKE THIS BEHAVIOUR, that’s why they hide it.

      The Hurt ,Harm and Humiliation I suffered at the hands of my The Grandmother/Mother was intentional. They liked HURTING ME. That’s why they hide it.

      It provides them with The Emotional Nourishment they require to get through each day and it sounds just like myself you were a good source of

        1. Lucy,,

          You are right on this in most cases. However, there are individuals that are so calculated, vindictive, covert intelligent and malignant, one has to discern if these individuals are dangerous. Many of them are and it is wise to put as much distance between you and them as you can.

          Only through educating yourself and acting in a responsible way and from past experience with dealing with these individuals will you have gut instinct on how to deal with a sociopath or unfortunately a psychopath.

          I encourage anyone who happens upon this blog to gain as much knowledge as possible for future reference in your interaction with these CD individuals. Be ever so cautious your life may depend upon it.

          1. Gut instinct…. I have read the book … maybe not enough times. The message regarding malignant characters that may be dangerous is something most of us do not want to believe . Its difficult to wrap my head around how dangerous psychopaths can be ,,,, they wear so many masks . Im glad to find this blog . Knowledge is power and i will use it discretly to distance myself from potentially destructive relationships .

      1. While looking for a book I wanted to loan to a friend of mine, I stumbled upon a book I read many years ago when battling with a CD. This is not a literary review by the way. It was written by a pastor and entitled – The Five Languages of Love. It gives explicit examples of how people need their “love tanks” filled. (and I am not talking about sex). If they were not speaking the same “love language” the relationship would become triangulated and toxic and listed the different styles. It at no time stated triangulation, I discovered this later.

        Considering it now some 6 years later there is a correlation between the styles and narcissistic supply. I feel now – especially after I have experienced narcissistic tactics from others I was not involved with in a romantic way is that what he was describing was/is their source of narcissistic supply. It’s very interesting to say the least and whether Graham Chapman (a pastor) who wrote it was conscious of it or not, he was showing how some need a certain substance (love style mirrored back to them) in order to be fulfilled. = supply.

        For some reason while searching for another book entirely, it caught my attention and even though I’d forgotten all about it I gave it some consideration. In hindsight I think I will give it a good deal more consideration. For example the five languages are:

        Quality Time
        Gift Giving
        Positive Affirmations
        Acts of Service
        Physical Touch

        This guy might not be that out of touch at all – OR he is excusing narcissism? From my experience with the CD I was with for 3 tortuous years. We had two totally different love styles (and I am not trying to excuse his behavior). His were gift giving and acts of service while mine where quality time and physical touch. Our union proved disastrous yet as friends we are fine and still are today. We were fine until he moved in with me and we formed a romantic relationship and I became his possession.

        In my own childhood, neither of my parents nor grandmother were CDs), however, I experienced a good deal of quality time and physical touch from my grandmother who basically brought us up – I loved her dearly and she died when I was 17. Both my parents worked and gave limited (if any) either QT or PT. They were too busy, and were not the huggy, kissy types and while we were not abused at all, we seemed to be being groomed for something. When my mother would come home from work she always had some treat for us i.e we (both my sister and I) would always greet my mother with “what did you bring us” However, while my sister and I are chalk and cheese, in essence we seem to have the same love style.

        I am not even sure if I am right but I am getting a strong impression that both my sister and myself were denied the things we needed most from (who should have been) our primary care givers. While our grandmother was able to give it to us, she died when we were both in our teens and it was devastating for both of us. My grandmother valued us. My parents didn’t value us to the extent she did, they didn’t use us as such but only did what they did in order to get by and give us what they could. They offered us crumbs and did their best to give us those crumbs but what we both really craved was the whole cake – love and acceptance and being confident we were loved and cared for – to be seen and acknowledged. In those aspects they failed us. They taught us great table manners, deportment, how to be a lady, how to speak, how to conduct ourselves in public, ballet lessons, swimming (we had a pool) which piece of cutlery to use for what we were eating (my mother even had barber shop colored spaghetti folks) but never really gave us a good heart felt belly laugh or rolled or frolicked around on the ground with us. We had lots of presents for Christmas and lots of Easter Eggs but something was missing from that scene. I hated Eater Eggs because the chocolate was shit. We got great presents for xmas but I preferred to swim and catch frogs and praying mantis, I was a child of nature. We played when we were alone – usually unsupervised but never with our parents (they just weren’t there). They even had holiday houses and at one stage we had a permanent caravan on an amazing island where we would spend our school holidays (our grandmother would take us). They never gave us what our grandmother did which was PLAY and allowed us to express ourselves freely – they never allowed us to be kids and express our natural joy and exuberance for life. In order to not cop too much flack, we had to repress a part of ourselves and conform to their world or rules of conduct in their world. But I just wanted to play and experience life and discover stuff and have fun! – my sister just wanted to conform. She would become involved with me and some of our friends only to turn on us and dobb on us to our parents to the point she got the nickname (c/o my father) Little Dobby. She still blames me to this day for the quality of her life and she’s 53 watches movies all day long and has destroyed everything she has ever had. Because me and the rest of us bent the rules, were disorderly, smoked and did things that were fun but taboo we were viewed as hostiles I guess from her perspective.

        It was an eye opener for me Joey and I don’t think my parents meant to cause hurt, harm and humiliation they were just conditioned and were mirroring their own respective parents. While I had a different outlook and perspective as a child, I loved life and wanted to explore and figure it our for myself. My sister seemed to think that to she had to conform in order to be accepted where I didn’t really care for others approval and hence did my own thing.

        I am not suggesting your situation was the same, I am just relating my own experience. My father got sent off to a race horse trainer as an apprentice jockey at a very young age (10 I think) and my mother went to boarding school. My father’s father (I never knew him) was apparently abusive. My grandmother (the one I loved) divorced him and remarried. My mother’s parents well, her mother committed suicide before my 1st birthday and my grandfather died of cirhiosis of the liver – he was a publican. In fact I spent the first 4 years of my life in the pub, small country town pub. I recall my early childhood (from first memory) my consort/nanny was a German Shepherd he was a companion and protector. He shadowed me 27/7 and I do not have one memory of that place without him in it, his name was Nicki and WE PLAYED! I have no memory of human contact prior to that – seriously. He loved to fetch the stick and swim and was always within 2 feet of me and I had free range of the whole grounds because he was always with me. The first dog I ever bought when I moved out of home was a German Shepherd and to this day I still have German Shepherds and I’m now 55. At no stage have I ever had a man in my life who could offer me the same quality time – play, protection, loyalty, comfort, laughter and just sheer joy as that dog did and I doubt one ever will.

        In saying that my sister, Little Dobby was a skillful performer, has done amazing tricks and tantalizing her friends and those willing to cow toe to her and has always had no animals other than fashionable Shitzhus – shitty little ill tempered dogs who love killing birds and anything else smaller than them and hate just about everything else but food.

        I apologise to anyone who is offended by my terminology of Shitzhus but they are nasty little pug faced assholes with no regard for anything at all except themselves. To end this story, my sister after ripping off my mother who paid a considerable amount of money to buy into a house with her (my sister was on the bones of her ass at the time after squandering her marital settlement) packed up and left the country, after ripping off my mother for over $90K left one of them behind as she could only take one so left the other one with her of which I ended up with. At the end of the day Smee (the Shitzus name) who killed two hand rared parrots of mine ended up being eaten by a large python. I seriously hope that type of end is the way all narcissists end up going. Those who consume get consumed.

        Screw the 5 languages of love. For me they are and no man or any other for that matter, has ever been able to give me what I really need which is – loyalty, companionship, affection, play, support/nurturance which equates to in my book as quality time. As far physical touch goes – well a handshake is just fine with me and I don’t have to buy him/her a fancy collar or leash- a pat on the head or a belly rub is just fine too.

        Animals are not subject to Wetiko – if I had fur I’d probably be content and a very happy camper. Seriously I grieve more when my mates (animals) die than when people do.


        1. Very interesting stories Eudoxia, lots of stuff to think about. I was laughing at some of your expressions. Yes, … Easter chocolate is shit!

          I have often thought a dog would make a better partner (but definitely not a Shitzhu lol). Dogs have many wholesome character traits. I am sure I am biased though about the genders. (I have half-facetiously told men lamenting their legal problems post-separation that hiring an escort when they needed would have been easier and cheaper).

          Modern marriage is tough: too many expectations of each other, imo. Most relationships don’t last, or if they do, one or both parties are not “happy” (however you want to define that).

          I found this guy’s ideas for “healthy” relationships (of all sorts) ring true from my experience of life. (I am not promoting his books.) I think he assumes that both parties to the relationship are relatively “normal”, or at least not some extreme form of character disturbance.

          Basically, we all need to grow up, but we only grow up within our relationships with others, where the work of growing up happens. However, CD people resist doing the work necessary to build a healthy relationship.

          When I look back on my younger self, I can see how I needed to grow up in all those 4 areas.

          1. Linda/BTOV,

            I think the same in Chapman’s book, he assumed that both parties were normal. Not when one is a CD – although I did get my ex N partner to read The Five Languages of Love – BUT that is slightly different to self work really. It takes both parties into account and a certain love style can’t be seen as a flaw or defect. That’s the major problem with these assholes – I’m calling a spade a spade. Because they innately know they are defective and flawed – they do everything thing in their power to avoid those and puff themselves up full of their own self importance in order to cover it up.

            In all honesty expression even passive can be a subtle form of cursing which when it doesn’t hurt anybody is an excellent way of getting rid of held onto anger and emotional pain. I can’t express them other than what they are and Shitzus are exactly how I explained them. My parents had dashounds as a child, and as nasty as one could be at times – nothing comes close to Shitzus in the assholes of the dog world stakes. But they do say animals take on our personalities and my sister whose dog it was is a CD.

            Thanks for reminding me of the crucible 4 points of balance Linda – I came across that some time ago but forgot all about it. I’ve been going through it again. My grounded responding has been somewhat hit of late it seems. I found myself procrastinating – well, well – no wonder I was feeling low. I kicked my ass into gear and went to the dentist (procrastination 1.) got my ridiculous traffic fine paid 2.) and went to war with my dog’s yeast infection in his ear 3.) not that I wasn’t doing anything about 3 but I decided it’s time to change treatments and really get rid of that shit. It’s clearing up. I’ve also put together a spreadsheet and statement of facts relating to the money I’m still owed by my ex friend CD and that’s straight after my second dentist appointment today. Good Lord when you are allowing your teeth to fall out , well that’s not grounded responding is it. Okay might be a bit exagerated but I should have had it attended to months ago. I was too busy drowning in the Swamp of Sadness – Never Ending Story, does anybody remember that part?

        2. Eudox,

          Welcome, I am glad you have continued to post. I was gone for several days and am catching up on reading the blog.

          Amazing stories of sadness, grief, emotions one can barely find words for.
          Unbelievable tragedies, generational sins carried on. I feel your pain and at the same time can connect as kindred spirits.

          For now, I have to say you put a smile on my face and brought a joyful memory back, through all this sadness and loneliness, to think one is able to find a moment of happiness in having a bug. I, too, had a praying matid for a pet, she layed several egg masses which I tied to branches so they could continue their cycle of life. To think, such a small living thing, such as a bug filled those moments in time.

          Thank you for bringing back that memory. ((((Hugs))))

    2. SYdNeY I’ve been thinking about your situation.

      If I was dealing with the person you describe, I think I would have a prepared script memorized and say it loud in public, if needed. I would only use it, if your person does not respect your boundary of “no contact”.
      Part of the script would describe and label her behaviour (see Joey’s comments), including the “tongue-in-cheek” behaviour for what it really is. Bring the covert out of hiding. I might even put it in the form of a question: “why does it amuse you to ….”, “do you behave like this because …..” which puts the pressure back on her. If I can’t find a precise name for a behaviour in the heat of the moment, I have used the label “inappropriate”.

      Another angle might be to respond with humour and agreement with whatever she is saying, but in an exaggerated way, that points out the absurdity of whatever she is saying to the audience in the room.

      I confronted someone like this in a work situation, but the aggression was overt. Her unprovoked hostility had been building for awhile. One day, she verbalized it again, in a public place, and walked away. I got up from my desk and followed a few feet, and said a bunch of stuff in a loud voice (a dozen or more people heard). I can hardly remember what I said, as it was spontaneous. I believe I used mostly “I” statements, and described her unfounded attacks on me, and described my reality and how I was doing the best I could in the conditions I had to work in. After that, she was professional, friendly and we worked together very well. I was surprised, as I had no expectation of this, I hadn’t thought about the afterwards. My coworker, who dreaded working with her, also experienced a change for the better when he had to work with her. So I created some drama. But it helped.

      It would be great to have a witty one-liner, but I can’t think of one.

      1. Thanks for your comment Anne.

        I remember an incident a few Christmases ago when it was mine and my husband’s turn to host a party. We invited quite a few people who didn’t really know each other but we felt it would be a good mix. We anticipated a loud and happy group with much mingling and that’s what we got.

        The covert-aggressor manipulator whom I hadn’t felt a need to label at that point came in with her spouse and with her phone attached to her ear. My husband and her spouse left the area while I stood waiting and waiting for the CD to get off the phone so that I could greet her and take her coat. It never happened because I finally gave up and walked away to join my guests in the other room. She never did come near me for the entire evening, no greeting, no thank-you, no good-bye, nothing.

        The next day when I reflected on the evening and on her behavior it dawned on me that she didn’t like being in the company of so many people she didn’t know because the attention would be taken away from her. Her behavior was probably triggered when she saw the large group gathered through our window. It was then that I realized the phone attached to her ear was most likely a prop. She seems to always position herself behind someone so she isn’t by anyone but her target, it’s a trait I’ve seen with other covert aggressors, that or a dropped voice so comments are made for targets ears only. CD wanted me to feel disregarded in my own home as I wasn’t important enough to even get off the phone for.

        I have witnessed many covert incidences like this with her that no one else saw.

        The person I describe is my SDIL. I might have to see her once a year because of the holidays but that’s it. Thank-fully my husband sees it now too. It took a long time but finally he did.

        1. Should read: She seems to always position herself behind someone so she isn’t witnessed by anyone but her target.

    3. SYdNeY,

      The one liner to zap their brain is to say NOTHING, to say NOTHING is the LAST LINER. In doing this you maintain your self respect and at the same time you are not engaging, above all the CD cannot stand it that they were unable to draw you in. Hold firm on this and in the end you will grow in courage and character. It takes guts and willpower to stand firm, maintain your self respect and try never to be drawn into lowering yourself to their level. This has worked every time for me.

      If the other people you speak of have any character they will respect your strength to not engage. Take care and I wish you well.

  5. BTOV – L is doing okay. She stayed the night here due to a strange synchronicity, she couldn’t get out! Her car got stuck in the driveway but she’s glad she stayed. She like many of us here she got a sense of relief to find about CD people. How many times have you heard “I knew there was something wrong but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it”

    We touched base on a few things and now we both know somebody else in crisis, but he’s a different kettle of fish. I need to continue this conversation but I would prefer to use a private forum to do so as I am going to have to use names, it’s getting complicated. You have extensive experience via the women’s shelter and dealing with women in crisis as well as the suicide factor.

    Could you please email me at At the moment and while I respect others input I am extending this invitation to BTOV only at this point.

  6. Interesting,

    Oh yes, the covertly aggressive female ‘friend’. I didn’t realize I was casual friends with an underhanded ice queen for five years into this ‘friendship.’ Her behavior just baffled me….withering looks, diminishing comments, mind games. I didn’t get it, at all, so didn’t respond in any way other than to be extra kind, because she must be hurting or insecure.

    Then one day she did something so overtly and uniquely cruel, it hit me and hit me hard. The woman is cruel, but manages to fly under the radar with it, most of the time. What blew her mind was my response.

    I really let her have it. I also spoke with her husband and blew her cover with the new ‘best friend’ couple she had been desperately trying to impress, in her ceaseless quest for narcissistic supply.

    I had to involve and inform other couple, as she risked my friendship with them, through triangulation. She gave me the, “Husband and I and new couple had a conversation this morning and it was decided you could join us tonight but only under certain conditions…” Like WTF?? Really, under certain conditions??? It was designed to edge me out, make me not want to go. There is more to this story but I want to keep it brief.

    I don’t cry easily and I can’t remember a woman ever making me cry before, but I was just sobbing, really having a tough time pulling out of it. I was alone at the time and facing weeks more of total alone-ness, while being totally housebound, so it came at a very bad time.

    I called the new couple up, really embarrassed, (because I was sobbing)and asked them if her claim was true and they said they had no idea what she had been talking about. Then I talked to her husband…same..he didn’t know what she was talking about.

    With coverts I think it it’s a good idea to call them on their behavior, if possible. They are slippery though and often have plausible deniability going for them. They are usually subtle enough to evade any attempts to pin them down. It is literally like trying to nail jello to a wall.

    This chick made the mistake of being cruel to someone who won’t let potential social discomfort stand in the way. Coverts use that like a shield.

    I can honestly say, nothing like that has ever happened to me before or since with a ‘friend.’ I’ve jad difficulties with friends who were bi-polar, had brain damage, suffered from mild paranoia, but that is so different.

    They weren’t deceptive or deceitful, just confused and scared. And likely because I have had so many friends with monumental problems, I misread this particular woman.

    She wanted to reconcile, to preserve our friendship and tried to explain in numerous ways how I had gotten it ‘all wrong.’ And again…a first –I told her I never wanted to see her again and to stay right out of my life.

    1. withering looks, diminishing comments, mind games. I didn’t get it, at all, so didn’t respond in any way other than to be extra kind, because she must be hurting or insecure.

      Same here Lisa except I knew this bitch for 40 years. Her emotional depravity did’nt fully come to the surface until I started living with her. In a nutshell I bought a house with her and her husband. I trode on egg shells the entire time. Because I had a 30% stake in the house and they had a 70% stake in the house everything had to be her way. Her demeaning comments, little jibes, insinuations, her continual taking offense to something that was totally non offensive, her emotional wig outs and hostility and anger issues were becoming asphixiating.

      Without going into too much detail she tried to destroy everything I loved, from my furniture to my animals then went after my family. She insisted I get rid of one of my cats as IT was causing a pissing problem (she had 4). She would incesantly whine about my dogs and at one stage early in the piece insisted they be restricted to the yard only – NO WAY HOSE. I told her to take a royal flying fuck over that one — too much of a control freak (the snide inuendos the constant accusations just kept continuing). She even tried to tell me how to keep my room and that I couldn’t have my animals in my room. I told her it was my room and I’d have a gorilla in there if I wanted to. While this was going on her husband kept trying to get me into bed of which I was having no part of. Pair of seriously low functioning beasts. The whole thing was becoming a nightmare. To top that off I was caring for my mother she had her own part of the house and it was part of the original reason I did it in the first place, Mum was actually dying of chronic heart failure.

      Anyway to cut a long story short things got really bad. She began to become jealous of my friends and was hostile and angry toward them and got really cold when ever she would find out I was going out to see anybody other than well anybody that wasn’t a friend of hers. Please note she doesn’t have any real friends aside from me (but that’s in the past now). She met most of her friends through her husband.

      In the end she started gaslighting. She said to me once oh by the way you know that ring I gave you. Well I didn’t really give it to you, it was a special gift for me from hubby and I cant see it anywhere around the house and I was wondering if you’d lost it. Then I knew what she was doing. Shortly their after she stole my mobile phone and my passport in an effort to try to stop me from leaving the house. Then she physicially attacked me and tried to throw me down the stairs. This was because I wasn’t giving her supply and I had already informed then I was leaving this situation.

      Re my family she lied and manipulated them, as it suited their needs (except my mothers) it was better for them if I stayed because there was somthing in it for all of them except me. My sister wanted income from looking after Mum, my friend wanted the rent (oh yes she used to charge my mother rent), and my darling daughter wanted the son of the friend. Shortly before my mother died she told me the three of them my daughter, friend and sisiter told her I didn’t want her anymore and she would be better off not coming with me and staying there where my sister who had come back from Thailand on the bones of her ass, would look after her.

      I have washed my hands of the lot of them. I will NEVER have another thing do do with all 3 of them ever again. My daughter after Mum died ripped off her own brother of his inheritance after and fully knowing he was struggling financially after having complications from a brain tumor that is benign but causesd a lot of hardship for him.

      Oh one last thing. Friend insisted while my son was with me recovering that he could only stay for 6 months because they were the rules. ICE QUEEN alright. Pathetic, treacherous bitch doesn’t even come close to describing her.

      This forum was a godsend to me too Lisa it helps us all release a lot of pain and bring relief to the traumatic wounding we receive after being involved with these monsters and human stains. Nobody could love them knowing what they are. Black hearted pure evil.

  7. And there it is what I need to read. The fighting aspect of the manipulater is rather enlightening for me. My mother has always fought to get her own way, by whatever means possible. Whether that be pitting my sister and I against each other our whole lives. To the point now we are not even really sisters. My mother will use opportune moments to humiliate (usually me) and wields manipulation like a wand to cause guilt. She taught my sister well, she now fights with the same array of weapons.
    There’s a moment when you can come out of the most traumatic time of your life and look down this tunnel of your life and see how on some level you are constructed to accept these toxic relationships into your life. You’ve lived it from the moment you were born. It’s like one by one you have to go backwards to fix everything that went wrong in your own self through toxic conditioning until you reach the beginning again.
    It’s only through working it out bit by bit that you become empowered to be the real you and then suddenly that gives you the courage to go further and heal other past hurts. So glad I stopped by again tonight, has been a while but it’s always good to return. Best wishes to all!

    1. Welcome LisaO and Tori,

      You have been missed, please don’t stay away for so long. Your knowledge and input is sorely missed.
      Blessings on your journey.

        1. Eudox,

          A judgement call may be interpreted in many ways. For me I observer the whole of all the information I have presented. I ask Gods direction, and then try my best to discern the proper direction. I may not always be right and am open for direction,correction or whatever that may be.

    2. I do believe Castaneda referred to it as recapitulation or rather Don Juan Matus. Going right back over your entire life to find out all the people/places and experiences that gave cause to create the false you. I just call it self hacking.

        1. I am going to simplify – I’m going to bed lol it’s 1.58am here and I need to catch some zz’s

          Goodnight everybody, sweet dreams when you get there.

  8. Hi everybody, Dr. Simon

    Great to read all of your comments and thanks so much for the vote of confidence, Btov! Hi Tori!

    I am currently putting myself through character boot camp. I have criticized the heck out of family and a couple of friends here. After that I felt it was necessary to train the same lens on myself.

    I think I mentioned this in a post awhile back and may have forgotten to emphasize that this doesn’t have that much to do with those in my life who have been problematic, narcissistic, or psychopathic, like the individual who targeted me.

    I played a role, but I won’t accept blame for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, nor being born into a family ruled by a strange man — whose problems I can’t even categorize — and all the fallout that ensued in my family.

    At the same time, I won’t distance myself from my own flaws by taking an intellectual approach, either. That’s a game people play on themselves, it seems.

    I’m working on anxiety, anger, being more aware of how I treat those close to me, in the moment. I have spoken to my guides, (whoever they are) and asked them for help.

    I was a badly damaged person but think I am less so now. I don’t really know who or what is responsible for that damage but I know with spiritual help, I can and will rise above it.

    I want to be clear that this is not a veiled message that everyonewho posts here should do the same. Many of you have already gone through this, and maybe not even consciously.

    Anyway, fwiw, that’s my story! I reflect often on your many wonderful posts that have taught me so much and for the incredible wisdom of Dr.Simon. His ability to describe with clarity and compassion so many ethical, character confusions has helped me extraordinarily on my journey to have the best character possible!

    It is much better and easier for me to just accept that I have flaws and try to change them than expend tremendous energy in defending what I considered necessary delusions to feel like a worthy adequate person.

    Thanks everybody. I will be back from time to time!


    1. LisaO, and Tori,
      Know you are very welcomed with happiness and joy. You and others are who have made the blog successful. Even though I want to give you a kick in the posterior once in a while. JUST KIDDING. You add so much and Tori too. God bless you on your spiritual journey whatever that may be. We all have one if we could only let go and find it.

      (((((((HUGS))))))))) Kindred sisters.

      1. BTOV am I talking to you in email. I just need to know it’s actually you who sent me an email and when I am certain it’s you I’ll open up a bit more.

          1. I didn’t mean to hit send then. When talking to L (the woman in crisis) I realised that I was doing stuff that was taking me away from processing and sitting with my own pain i.e. helping somebody else and giving them advice. It was this forum that made me realise that. I discovered during a comment I was typing that while I have often given great advice I was not good on actually implementing the very advice I was giving. Such as take time out and sit with your own pain and process it, without using another activity so as to avoid it. Whatever that activity might be – housework, movies, socialising……………..the list is endless. When I was really doing it hard I was going to the tavern a lot more than what I would usually and I realised it was to cheer me up. Well drinking alcohol often doesn’t and it’s just, at the end of the day, seeing escape from your own pain. This has been a big self realization for me.

            For my own recovery process to unfold and for me to fully integrate the discoveries I’ve made and are still making about myself this forum has been like finding gold. I just need to take time out to heal myself now and not focus so much on others. The lady I was worried about has the information she needs and she knows about this forum. At this point in time I think this forum is what she would no doubt benefit most from now. At the time I was concerned an important question might get lost in literary reviews.

            Yourself and others provide a wonderful source of support – far superior than anything that can be found in any tavern. I live in a very small town and the tavern here is more like a social club. I found myself drinking more and getting ever more miserable socialising with people who had no clue as to what I was actually going through. I realise now that in order for me to sit there with them I was actually masking my pain. That’s not the right way to deal with it.

      2. Thanks BTOV and LisaO, So good to see you in the bloggy way ha ha! LisaO your story with family so familiar though in my family it was my mother. You say some profound things about having to admit to your own flaws and yeah I have them and like you work damn hard to ensure I can change those for the better. It is a constant little tick now, whether it be not to react to someone else’s bad behaviour or just to recognise your own and pull away from whatever is causing it or ensuring you don’t go down that path. Actually even as I continue to heal…and I think that is always a continuous thing I find now that as I feel very much empowered that with that empowerment comes a responsibility to use it wisely and not let your confidence become all powerful too. I find that really scary when your confidence is so high. Although I also find in different situations I will revert to old habits and have to pull myself out again but the fact I recognise them is the treasure I have learned from Dr Simon and others. Oh I wish you all happiness and will try to get back here when I can! Hugs and kisses to you! 🙂

        1. Dear Tori and LisaO,

          First of all it is such a blessing (favor) to hear from you and know you are doing well. I think when we have found our way it will always be an upward battle to stay on the straight and narrow. From our past, learn how to turn those negatives into a part of us and use it for the good of mankind.

          I think of you Tori, for like you I really loved with my whole heart and it was shattered. Now after 6 years feel confident to venture out. I have to say that if you missed this post. I came across some very profound words by one of our Kindred Spirits,
          Rationalize = Rational Lies by: Vera At the time she was well and taking care of her father.

          Isn’t it easier to admit to our faults and take ownership, this make us a humbler individual and the load gets lighter to bare and in that moment we find parts of ourselves we never knew existed. None will say it in a more noble and thought provoking light than LisaO, truly a gift I wished I had and admire and am glad you share that side of yourself with us.

          I always tease with Lucy, in the end, one day we will open a retirement home, I think an eight family, perhaps, a twelve family right next door to Dr. Simon of the Golden Girls and Guys, Wouldn’t that make for an amazing ending for someone who brought people from all over the world to grow in Peace and Hope like Elva would say.

          Perhaps, we could all stop in on the first of the year. I wonder about Puddle and pray she is well, so many times she brought me to laughter and at the same time tears. Your spirit of truth burns on and you are not forgotten.

          Many Hugs and Kisses dear Kindred Spirits

    2. LisaO
      I missed hearing from you. I’m glad you popped back in. And yes I think most of us here are a work in progress. I surely am and have got a ways to go

      1. eudox,
        There are many of us here that deal with physical pain too. It is very difficult to juggle the two. However, in the long rung alcohol only numbs the pain for a short period. Like many it takes more a more to get the same effect. So in essence you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.

        It is very important to have a strong and understanding support group. Many times no matter how hard we must go through it instead of around in order to heal and put all the demons to rest, so to speak. Many times we are at a point we don’t even know what we are dealing with.

      1. That’s brilliant Joey – pure God. I’ve ordered the book. Have you ever heard of The Dark Sid of Cupid? Hyperdimensional interference in love relationships. It is a similar concept except explained from a higher dimensional perspective. It’s a book by Eve Lorgen and she has quite a bit of UTube presentations and panels on these types of relationships.

      2. JOEY,

        I have read Dark Souls and it is a great book. I have not read Sarah’s other books which I am sure are as informative as Dark Souls. You get a whole other perspective on how callous and ruthless these soul suckers are, women and men alike. You can never know to much, knowledge is power and in this day and age believe me you can use all the resources available to you.

  9. Btov, I will try to make it here more often. Big hugs to you, too! I think of you and how much you have helped your sister, often. Your story is an inspiration! I hope you are both doing well!

    And Lucy, I think of you and that awful man you were with and hope you are finding some relief.

    I admit to a feelings of warm contentment and amusement when you shared with us how you grabbed him by the collar and threw him up against a wall, after you found out what he was up to. You felt kind of bad about it, but I was high-fiving you, in my mind.

    As I mentioned, I have a ways to go. I would like to be a gentler person, always, and not have aggressive impulses ever. Oh well, with time! I am not quite there yet!

      1. This stupid Mac changes my words a good part of the time. LisaO, I meant you could argue a case for Tori, Vera and Puddle, Elva too.

    1. LisaO,

      Sis, has been in the hospital 5 times this year. At one point her temp was 104 and after speaking with doc we decided to pul the NRO. It would be better she go this way rather with an obstruction. Thank you for asking, it means a lot.

      Blessings to you and your family and hope you are well.

    2. LisaO
      I think it was Charlie who grabbed her husband – and I high fives that. My bad
      I’m still trying to get a divorce from the husband. Almost two years now. He has filed so many pleadings in court, done what he can to divert attention away from the main issues. He’s a nightmare. But with support and knowledge from this site I am making it through ok. I have my bad days, but they are fewer.
      Knowledge is Power, isn’t it?

      1. Lucy,
        Not to discourage you, it will be going on 6 years and paperwork is still not complete. I hope SB hasn’t a bag of tricks to keep the D going for that long. I imagine SB will have somewhat of a meltdown when daughter moves out and he is and I bet the sheriffs will have to physically remove him from the house. Let SB wallow in his filth, however, I am there will be those do gooders that will blame it all on you.

        Don’t let that affect, we all know the real truth. I think you should sit out front of the house on moving day with a soda and box of popcorn. Only kidding, just thought I could get a smile.

        Then SB can go setup that diseased cot in the basement of the bar with all his scurrying rat friends. Oh, I have to be better then this. I have my moments too.

  10. Eudox
    While going through an extremely difficult time of my life (finding out about shitbag’s private life), I remembered reading the following passage from Buddist Depak Chopra, and put it in action, and in time I did begin to heal. I cried hard for a good three months, the tears stopped and I began to heal :
    ‘Instead of resisting any emotion, the best way to dispel it is to enter it fully, embrace it and see through your resistance.’ – Deepak Chopra …

    1. I’ll drink to that pardon the pun. Yes that is my realisation – I might cut and paste that passage into Word and stick it on the fridge. We do have to sit with it and not run from it. Sometimes I can cry up a storm and these days I just let it all out, rather than drying the tears and running off and doing something else. Talking to others has been the best form of therapy I’ve found to date. I’ve come so much further since I’ve been posting here and sharing with others and listening to their stories than ever before in the healing stakes and self discovery. It just has to all come out and I’ve realised I’ve been holding on to way too much.

      1. After the hurt subsided then came the anger, fierce anger once I realized what had happened, all the lies, betrayals, emotional and monetary abuse. The anger lasted much longer. It’s still there but has finally diminished somewhat. I’m still angry because I’m still dealing with the SB in divorce proceedings. I fully braced the anger as well, but problem was I could not release it on the one who caused it. Life can be difficult for sure

        1. Lucy,
          I know it is really rotten and unfair. Sb makes the rules, SB breaks the rules, I would like to know if there is any adults in this court that has “YES” I said it “PUT THE SB IN JAIL.”

          Those jerks they call lawyers and judges are going to let this run it course till there is no money to be gained. ALL GONE Sorry Lucy, we tried, what a jerk. This is where its going. If you go past the value of your assets and are out on the street and the only one working , what a pathetic judicial system.

          With no money, no lawyer, no assets, no lawyer, you have enough paperwork to take it to court yourself and it looks like that may happen. Only thing, you can make them wait till you die to touch you retirement. What *&)&*)*)()*( I am pissed too.

          1. Yep, everyone runs circles around him. My hope is that he will settle. If he doesn’t, incriminating evidence will be put forth and he will have to answer to it. What kind of answer can a man have to why he repeatedly booked anywhere from one up to seven hotel rooms in one day, at different locations throughout the city, repeatedly, for over the course of two years? Sometimes it was several hotel rooms, in the same hotel, in the same day. The bank records reflect his every move. Then the ATM withdrawals. What kind of “operation” was this? I can only think of two answers, and they both involve breaking laws. It is the duty of the judge and the lawyers to report to the State Attorney’s Office knowledge of criminal activity. When that comes out in court, someone will be obligated to report him. So he does have incentive to settle.
            I want my life back. Been living in limbo for two years now, living with friends. Ridiculous.
            See why the anger is there?

          2. And for anyone thinking “how could she not know?” Why the hell should I even think that scenario was a possibility? Who would know their husband was a drug dealer or pimp or both? I was at work full time. Since he had an office building of his own and private practice, I assumed he was working. He was still paying bills. I never looked at that particular bank account. I never used it. It was only after I left him that I found out the extent of what had been going on. And that excessive gambling – goodness, I was clueless of the extent of it.
            And this was a man who could never perform well sexually. Always had his “issue”. Why would I think he was running with prostitutes? He hated women. His “women” were his paid slaves. He used me up for what he could get from me, and is still trying to get half of what is left.
            This scenario, of my life, is manipulation to the extreme. Lies upon lies, deceit, cover-up. when I questioned him he’d used “fake anger” to get me to back off. He used every tactic one could think of. This is why I hate the man and am still angry.
            I know – my story seems too out-there to be true. But it’s true. It happened. The SB spiraled into a place that is dark and ugly. I’d never want to be him.

        2. Yes you can Lucy. Now this my seem something untoward and might cop some serious stares, and raise a few eyebrows however, it worked for me. I made a voodoo doll. I had personal effects of the abuser and I made a doll – once made I cursed that damn doll for a good hour. Then I threw it off a bridge into running water – symbolically allowing the water to take it away from me or you could bury it somewhere off your property. After I was done the anger had gone. Don’t get me wrong you still have residual but a lot of the acute stuff gets transferred into the doll.

          Unlike the real McCoy you are using the doll the same manner in which you would use sympathetic magic if you were to use it. In this instance it just becomes an object for you to transfer your anger into and returning it to the one who gave it to you originally. You’re not using ritual or incantations or anything else that would be required to actually curse a person. Nothing wrong with returning that which isn’t yours. Also you didn’t agree to receiving it, so it was a null and void contract from the start – in other words a violation. As you can’t yell at SB in court this is the next best thing. But you are not using the real stuff so that takes care of any karma one could incur if you were to do it for real. It’s much like taking a baseball bat to the mattress – why beat up an innocent mattress when you just transfer your stuff onto the one who caused it in the first place. It worked for me anyway Lucy. I still have anger but not nearly as intense plus their is other anger I’m holding onto caused by buy others but that anger is actually being transmuted into something else. I’m not sure what at this stage but my resolve is getting stronger day by day. When we are under attack we have to release our anger and I found the doll to be marvelous therapy for that.

          1. Lucy/Linda – sorry that post was meant for Linda but anybody can use that method -smile-

          2. I can understand how the doll worked. It’s the release. I don’t care how I get there, release is release and that’s a good thing ! I’m glad you’re finding relief. One can’t take a continual pounding without suffering harm if it’s tended to.

    2. To paraphrase Dune:
      “I must not despair.
      Despair is the mind-killer.
      Despair is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
      I will face my despair.
      I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
      And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
      Where the despair has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

      1. Jh

        Thanks. I like that. Face it, pass over and through me. I believe this, if you fully envelope it, let is run its course, and then boom, it’s gone.

  11. Now here is one for the books – I was googling something about what 2 CDs would look like in a relationship and the below was a comment I picked up on a site.

    Well that is an interesting question. The answer totally depends on other traits that they possess. For example, if in addition to being so self absorbed they could also pay attention to the other person and pamper them often ;), then yes. There are of course other factors like, sex life, romance, emotional bonding, understanding etc.

    Bottom line, if two narcissistic people like and understand each other, enough to make little adjustments…then hell yes! It will work out 😉 🙂

    LOL OMG this person has no bleeding clue about narcissists. Emotional bounding?? Pamper them often?? Make adjustments???????????

    Just thought I’d share it.

    1. Eudox,

      What is the name of the book you are referring too? Two narcissists can coexist together. The lesser doing more of the supplying. In reality they are co-dependent on each other. The same can happen to a full blown CDN in old age, he will have lost his appeal and needs to latch onto to someone. That someone may have been a lesser introverted Narc who will now have their heyday on the aging narc.

      What a disgusting scenario, could make a vulgar horror show. One feeding off the other. What an obscene food chain, you are imagining it, just think of the poor souls that actually witness it. How sad.

  12. BTOV – I didn’t mention a book – I googled it out of morbid curiosity. I was just pondering on what it would look like with 2 in a relationship. A disgusting scenario alright but the one you mentioned is totally sick. God I’d rather be dead. Bill and Hillary Clinton come to mind as well in fact somebody in that blog mentioned them. I hope nobody here is a Hillary fan because she is a fully fledged psychopath. So I guess that answers my own question. Yes two can co-exist especially if they have a dual motive of stealing the world.

    Somebody asked me once (this person was in denial) how you could dead set tell if you were with a narcissist. I said get sick – they can’t stand that then you’ll see just how compassionate and caring they are not.

    1. Eudox,

      It is getting late your time, I was not able to sleep. I have PTSD for over 30 years and become hyperventilate when the weather is similar to when I was assaulted. Nothing to do with my X. I will be OK. There was a gift in this, I can feel and truly understand others who are going through or are symptomatic. Eudox, sound German.

      First I would recommend all of Dr. Simons books and read the archives and watch Dr. Simon You tubes.
      Any how three other books for you to read if you already haven’t is
      Mans’ Meaning to life By Psychiatrist Victor Frankl

      I don’t know your pain or situation Eudox, but know you are very welcomed by many good people here. Every once in a while a slitherer comes sliding in, in a short time I don’t think they can stand the honesty.

  13. BTOV – It doesn’t matter to me too much how late or early it is, I go to bed when I’m tired. Now that I’m not working in the corporate world, I’m not dependent on time or the rules imposed by time. My former CD friend when I was living with her would continually try to guilt trip me about what time I’d go to bed. She was a total control freak – subservient to authority. I’m just the opposite. It was a major relief to me once she would go to bed and remove her energy from my space. On quite a few occasions I’d get up only to be met with her standing there with her hand on her hip saying something alone the lines of “well I’ve been up for an hour and I’ve done x, y and z” For about a year I just sucked this up and would just tip toe around it until it started to get out of hand. Then I would reply with good for you, I respect your choice but I’m getting up now and that’s my choice. If she’d proceed any further I would simply say I don’t appreciate your adversarial mood anytime let alone first thing in the morning. It was when I started to tackle her she became increasingly more hostile. She was a really good lesson in CDs of the gaslighting kind.

    I’ve ordered 3 of Dr Simon’s books, Wolf in Sheeps Clothing, How Did We Get Here and Character Disturbance. I’ve also ordered Dark Souls and Sarah Strudwick’s book the Phoenix Spirit. I’m going to be very busy indeed. I’ve already just started another one which is Alan Carr – The Only Way to Stop Smoking. I had a crack at that before, and had actually stopped smoking half way through the book. But that was when I was with CD ex friend and when then shit hit the fan – I started smoking again when she had a major melt down and got violent. I understand but do not excuse why she became violent, it was narcissistic rage. I would not give her supply, she’d go into injury, come at me again and I would not feed the beast. In all honesty she’s possibly one of the most CD people I’ve ever met. In hindsight, I thought my exN partner was bad but she’s probably a lot worse. Her husband puts up with he abuse. I don’t.

    Eudoxia is Byzantine. It was a character in an Ann Rice novel. That’s not my real name, who on earth would use their real name on a site that could at anytime be frequented by CDs LOL. I use that blogger name where ever I post.

  14. I was reading the comments from a post over 2 years ago and came across a reference to the Chump Lady.

    (fwiw, the commentators were also discussing literature, character development, the evolutionary basis of bullying, Freud, Jung, Shakespeare, Red Riding Hood, mythology and opera).

    The Chump Lady was a guest on Dr. Simon’s audio program awhile back. In his words: “She has a way of practically applying the principles I’ve long advocated in my books (…) to matters of relationship irresponsibility and, especially sexual infidelity.”

    In my words, the Chump Lady is very gifted at cutting through the fog of what manipulators say and do, and she does it with humor and flair. Check it out if you haven’t already.

    1. Two more great websites related to manipulation and character disturbance, with lots of practical “tools”:

      Dr. Irene (has an inactive forum)

      Out of the Fog (has an active forum)

  15. Where can I find assistance in learning to be assertive? Both of my parents have character disturbance and are manipulators. I am the only one of 6 offspring from this couple to have compassion and empathy and want to live differently from them. I have spent half of the first 50+ years of my life under the thumb of character disturbed people. As I make my way to an empowered and joyful life, I could benefit from an outsiders perspective on being assertive. Any suggestions?

    1. Self awareness is the key. MAN KNOW THYSELF. It is a journey in order to find our authentic self. In order to re-discover that gem who got buried very slowly when the ego started to form and then took over until our essence was truly buried in beliefs we have about ourselves that are simply just not true. Due to our childhood we set in play many strategies to deal with how we respond or rather react to our environment . These are coping strategies that work for us as children, however, they become ingrained automatic behaviors that stop working for us as adults when we either can have the ability to control how we respond to our environmental which includes people/situations. The great problem is this is not taught to us in either school or in religion. We can live our entire lives in this neurosis until we go on our self discovery mission and what I refer to as self hacking.

      Generally it takes a major life changing event for us to want to pursue this path and this event is usually very painful i.e. a divorce, the loss of a loved one, a terrible accident that changes our entire life. Not everybody takes this path in life and continue to battle through in a state of robotic behavior which Dr Simon refers to as neurosis and rightly so because it is. It is inauthentic behavior. How many times have you wanted something only the self sabotage to the point you had to ask yourself “why did I do that or why did I say that” then wished you didn’t because it just happened on its own. That is automatic behavior. It’s an ego defense mechanism/s that rise up to hold the construct in place. It’s the head that dictates the behavior but the heart suffers as a result.

      I also agree with Ann about our personality. What I found after much reading and self observation was as children we form a concept (world view) about who we are then we develop a construct around it. This construct is a set of key beliefs we have about ourselves (some right most not) and we develop early childhood strategies to hold that construct in place. Although our construct/personality is not who we are but it worked as protection for us as kids and made us feel relatively safe in an environment we had little control over.

      How I discovered this was after a very tragic event the suicide of my former partner. I was sick at home one day and watching Oprah and she was interviewing a psychotherpist Tara Bennett Goleman who wrote a book called Emotional Alchemy How the Mind Can Heal the Heart. I thoroughly recommend it along with Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman (Tara’s husband). The Power of Now by Eckart Toll gives you a guided tour on how to observe our minds in action. These are 3 gems of books that can help you profoundly.

      How I discovered this was after a very tragic event – the suicide of my former partner. I was sick at home one day and watching Oprah and she was interviewing a psychotherpist Tara Bennett Goleman who wrote a book called Emotional Alchemy How the Mind Can Heal the Heart. I thoroughly recommend it along with Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman (Tara’s husband). The Power of Now by Eckart Toll provides a guided tour on how to observe our minds in action. These are 3 gems of books that helped me profoundly. Then I discovered The Enneagram personality styles which I found much better than any system thus far including Myers Briggs. It exposes a lot of our inner machinations.

      If you need to start from somewhere these are good resources for kicking off what we all find to be our life journey and mission into self discovery and the search for our authentic self – in the words of Ken Wilbur make no mistake there will be wreckage. Once you establish who you really are you might not want any CDs or other less troubled people in your life at all. I sure as hell don’t and I severed a lot of ties as a result. I found the people who I was friends with and some family members were just not nice to be around and the only thing binding me to them was a false sense of loyalty. Education, understanding and self discovery unfolds and allows us to live in truth with respect for others and ourselves. We end up developing a healthier way of being in and relating to the world around us.

      In order to change the world around us we need to change our relationship to the world. We are responsible for the quality of our own experiences and nobody can take that power from us unless we allow it.

  16. I gained assertiveness with time and practise. I read, thought and learned alot, from this website, books and other online material.

    It was necessary to develop more self-awareness about my boundaries, beliefs, personality. Become a stronger person.

    It was also necessary to learn about other people and manipulation techniques.

    Then to figure out how manipulation techniques and my personality/beliefs work together to my detriment; for example, if I am inclined to believe that most people are kind and truthful, then the manipulator senses that and uses it their advantage.

    I find the chump lady website is really good for dissecting the behaviours and words of character disturbed people. It’s one thing to say manipulators lie. Chump lady gives specific examples and decodes them.

    Being able to disengage emotionally from situations is important so that I can interpret and respond dispassionately and skillfully to the behaviour the person has, get right to the point, and not be led off topic by new tactics. This requires a strong sense of my own worth so that I don’t react to the insults and accusations that the manipulator will use as another tactic. (I have sometimes told the manipulator that attacking me is off topic in the current situation, but I would be open to hearing any thoughtful respectful feedback about my faults if he would put them in writing; he never does).

    1. Eudox, Lambert

      Eudox and Anne gave you good insight and advise. I welcome you to keep posting, there is a wealth of knowledge in the archives and the from the individuals that post here.

      Like you we have experienced the pain and confusion the CD create. We are all works in progress and willingly share our experiences and knowledge to help others grow. I would encourage you to read Dr. Simons books, you will find a wealth of knowledge that will help set you free. If you keep posting I will try to give you a list of other reading material that will be helpful.

      Eudox, I am sorry you went through so much. I think many of our life stories, really tragedies, are what have formed us. You stated this very well, it it is hard to revisit the past, however, when we integrate these tragedies into us and use it as a tool to grow in strength and character many times we find ourselves a better person because of it.

      Thank you for sharing, I know how difficult it is for all of us. I did the same thing I divorced a family full of them, I may be related to them by blood, however, the commonality ends there. You are right, when we become our authentic self, the true self we were cheated out, we become a whole different person.

      It is healthy, to reject the CD and want these kind of people in out of our lives.
      When we put them out of lives, life takes on a whole different meaning. I can truly say my life has improved drastically by putting them out of my life. My friends are my family and I am blessed I have. They encourage me to grow and live a happy life.

      Blessings to all of you

  17. I hope everybody had a lovely and drama free Christmas. I did and it was the first Christmas without drama for 3 years and probably beyond that as well.

    I also wish everybody has an amazing time on New Years Eve for all who are stepping out to celebrate the ending of one very difficult and traumatic year. I will be doing just that. I can’t say I will be too unhappy to see the back of this year. I will no doubt at some point in the future look back on it having come out of it wiser and stronger and much more aware. I have often said how we are all actually blessed to have had experiences with CDs. It is them who are cursed. But for those of us who have lived, learned and come out the other end an improved version of ourselves then it has been worthwhile. Many times and I know many will agree with me here, the most painful and traumatic experiences we have in our lives are the ones we learn most from. We not only learn about others but we also learn more about ourselves.

    Gratitude to all here at this blog. Your encouragement and support assisted me greatly in a time of major crisis. This blog is like a safe house it provides sound advice, understanding, care and above all loving and genuine support.

    Thank you Dr Simon and everybody – HAPPY NEW YEAR!

    I won’t continue in a relationship with a CD – not a close personal relationship anyway. I have had to hit the detonator switch quite a few times during this year. I am not a Saint nor do I have the patience of one which is what it would take to commit to somebody as disturbing as that, you would have to really, really love that person in order to put yourself in harm’s way day after day. I do know of some who have and I admire them for it. But there is a difference between meaningful endurance and desperation i.e. holding onto an improbable outcome and hoping for the best.

    1. Eudox,

      I am glad you are doing so well, you have come a long way in a short time. Your thoughts, input and your personal experiences you have shared are deeply appreciated.

      There are some individuals that think victims like being in an abusive relationships. I am calling attention to another reason and there are many why a person stays and that is the phenomena of the Stockholm Syndrome.

      Until a person has experienced such a degree of fear, helplessness and hopelessness it is unfair to comment/judge the individuals that endure living in these situations. Think of being in an environment where you know you are safer being abused then being hunted down and brutally murdered and perhaps your children too. These are decisions many of these woman may be faced with and I am only touching the surface. Each of these situations has its own unique set of circumstances.

      You are right, there are differences, thanks for reminding us.

      It is easy to stand on the outside and reason why a person should leave, when in fact one doesn’t t have a clue to the working dynamics of these unique, very sad and horrifying situations.

      Blessings to all and hopefully a better New Year.

  18. BTOV I totally agree with everything you’ve said above. I doubt that anybody likes being in an abusive relationship but some people do, however, go back for more. The victims I’m speaking specifically of are the ones who understand or have some level of understanding of the abuser/enabler relationship and are suffering as a result of continual enabling of their abuser and not taking responsibility for themselves or their own behavior but continue to blame the abuser for how they feel when they do become aware they have a choice. Obviously it’s not the same when you are ignorant (and I don’t mean this in an offensive way) about CDs and are still in the baffled, hurt, humiliation stage of the relationship before knowledge and awareness comes in and removes the confusion. Then it’s decision time. Obviously some are also bound to their abusers due to financial and other reasons but it’s not these people I refer to as desperate.

    I’ve got a person around me at present and this person is very draining. While this person is no longer around the abuser and despite copious information given this person still thinks the abuser is going to see the light and merrily puts up with regular onslaughts by not implementing the no contact policy. The entire town is getting sick of this person’s pity party for want of a better term and is actively engaging the abuser in a vicious game of cat and mouse where the abused loses every time. It is not a case of Stockholm Syndrom here and nor is it a case of being financially tied to this person. These types of people think a silver bullet is going to save them and by some miracle the abuser will turn back into the Cinderella or the Knight in shining armor who once appeared and still does from time to time only to be replaced by something more insideous on a regular basis. We all know there is no silver bullet other than personal application and dedication to correct the problem which often is to leave the situation. It should be noted this person takes absolutely no responsibility for anything bad at all that happens, everything is somebody else’s fault. These are the desperate people I’m speaking about and after reading your message BTOV and re-reading my own I won’t use that term anymore.

    We had a very horrifying situation not so far from here not so long ago. A husband and a wife were sentenced to 42 and 17 years respectively for abusing, torturing and raping their own daughter for years. The daughter was too scared to speak out in case anything happened to her younger sister. I don’t refer to these people as desperate even though they are but for very obviously different reasons. I should elaborate more on what I mean at times. Anyway this situation shocked the entire village and low and behold the father was held in high esteem by the community and was a swimming coach so had access to hundreds of teenage girls. Whether he’s abused anymore is another matter entirely and is probably still an active part of the police investigation.

    Anyway too damn depressing for a new year’s eve rant LOL. I’m looking forward to a bigger, brighter, more hopeful New Year filled with love and laughter.

    There is one thing I know for certain, I’ve become a better person for it and have learned much. I’ve made many new friends and have found a support group like none other.

  19. Eudox,

    We are having a discussion and I added another thought to the mix. The couple you are talking about are colluding on the same level to abuse and victimize and are both severely CD. The other person you talk of can be in denial and wants to believe a lie there can be for a number of reasons for their thought processes. She may have her own issues of character she must acknowledge and change and that requires taking responsibility for ones own actions which many times one does not want to do.

    Some have a learned ingrained thought processes of feeling guilt for leaving. They may in fact believe it a sin due to their religious beliefs. They may feel and have been taught love never fails, they have their own control issues, so many things. This I believe is where it is important to point this person in the direction of a good professional therapist.

    The couple that has so heinously abused their child, personally, I would give them the death penalty. Not prison, the money spent on prisoners of that sort would be better used to feed the starving children in the world. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

    Eudox, I understood what you were saying, there are just so many variables as to why one does or reacts how they do. We have subconscious components at play too.
    A person must be willing to listen and want help, they must want change. I believe this is where Dr. Simon talks about lovingly pointing things out to another can be beneficial. Change and taking responsibility is removing oneself from a know comfort zone and for many they can’t/won’t do it and it may take time, a lot of time, perhaps years. I do believe though the woman your talking about has not hit her bottom yet.

    Yes, I am looking forward to a bigger, brighter, more hopeful New Year with love and laughter too. (((((Hugs))))) and many blessings to all.

    How are you Joey?

  20. BTOV the person I am referring to I have not spoken about on this forum before. No it is a he not a she and he is in full on victim mode. He has been given loving support by a lot of people he has been given a lot of guidance and continues to revert back to the same behavior that gets him into trouble in the first place. He is now in trouble with the police and is still blaming everything on his abuser even though she had nothing to do with his latest trouble which was due to his own lack of social responsibility. He needs to own his own behavior and finally accept the fact he is totally responsible for the quality of his own experiences in life. We all know silver bullet people. They are out there in droves. It takes brutal dedication to admit we all have shortcomings, but while many of us can grasp the fact that in order to change our external environment we first need to adjust our own internal environment. Victims wont do this.

    They want that silver bullet and they demand it be given to them. An event will happen eventually that will give them just what they want but they might not like the way it’s delivered or the taste. This is what Fuller refers to as The Mack Truck moment. I know what that is because I’ve had it and it sorted me right out. It tasted bad, it hurt and it sucked but it woke me right up to myself. It was that AHA moment I needed. There was a lot more involved in it of course but it jolted me into a realisation I previously had not had or even gave the slightest consideration to. It did not happen on impact but later that I got it and as tragic as it was it was the best thing that ever happened to me.

    1. Eudox,

      I had my aha moment and several of them, just like you the best thing that ever happened to me. I decided to take the bad and turn it into good, to help others and in return I was constantly blessed because of it. Rather then be hateful and bitter I use it for the betterment of society and it will automatically come back 7 fold.

      So many kind, loving people reached out to me and all they wanted was for me to pay forward. That is exactly what I am doing, I give because I received. It is a wonderful system of paying forward.

      If I may ask how long did it take for you to catch on?

      1. How long did it take for me to catch on? Well a few years actually, not the AHA moment but the behavior adjustments needed. I had my first AHA moment after my former partner who I was still in love with committed suicide. Then a few years later I was watching Oprah when she was interviewing Tara Bennett Goleman about Emotional Alchemy and I identified to certain behaviors that her other clients were reporting so I bought the book.

        My second biggest earth shattering AHA moment was when I found the Enneagram and realized with abject horror that in this instance we both myself and partner and brother we all at the lower end of the our personality paradigms and were all fully fixated. I realized that had we had behaved differently and were healthy within our respective paradigms nothing like this would have happened. We were all biological machines working against each other to win! This is when I went full steam ahead into the work, loading up on books on everything I could find. I threw every book of fiction I had out and dedicated my life to the search of knowledge and self realization.

        I pretty much identified all my early maladaptive childhood schemas and made particular notice how each and every one of them were implemented in order to protect the false construct of what I thought was me. I could see my ex parnters as well and realized how we both self sabotaged. HOWEVER, my brother the other part of this triangle was well CD. I did not know that at the time of my discovery it came later. Interesting my brother and I had the same personality but our strategies were very different. Even though I was ego fixated I didn’t lie, cheat or set out to make intentional trouble to sow discord. He did. I have not seen my brother pretty much since I wanted to kill him and at one stage I did believe me. This is when I was still in victim mode drowning in my own self pity and holding the world responsible. This is when I decided this isn’t me and started to do something about it. Watching Oprah that day was what changed everything.

        I have no idea as to the actual fate of my brother, I’ve had no contact at all since my father’s funeral in 2002 and I’m keeping it that way. When I look back now I see the evil menace in him and they all operate pretty much the same way he’s CD to the core. I only met my brother when I was in my thirties. He is a product of one of my father’s past affairs so he wasn’t raised with us. He didn’t literally show up until that time and Dad had no idea either.

        Now that I’ve come to this point what I find so difficult to deal with is this. I can pretty much tell the difference between high and low functioning people but others can’t. It never ceases to amaze me just how ignorant humans actually are when it comes to character assessment and discernment. To me I care not one wit what somebody looks like for me character matters and that’s it. I keep well away from low functioning people and what I refer to as low functioning people are people within the lower average and unhealthy realms of their personality paradigms. The neurotics as Dr Simmon refers to them. It took me quite a few years to break through the automatic behavior and continual self observation in order to catch myself in the act.

        An interesting source of reading is a book by GI Gurdjieff called Beezelbubs Tales to His Grandson. It is a massive tomb of a book about the neurosis in mankind and the correct operation of the biological machine. I was blessed by having to spend 2.5 hours a day on a train commuting to and from work. I did a lot of reading over a 15 year plus period and none of it fiction.

        Okay that’s the sermon for today LOL. Anyway that’s what worked for me and it’s still ongoing because every time I take another hit (as in the last CD in my life) it sends me into a tail spin and I end up spiraling back into the unhealthy emotional patterns. It takes great strength of conviction to get out of them but when you are in the thick of it you sometimes don’t realize you are in there. But this time I managed a faster recovery and it’s thanks in part to you guys. So please don’t any one of you ever downplay the importance of your advice and encouragement you give here. It helped me immensely and expedited my recovery.

        it’s going to be a hot one here today prediction of 38 celcius it’s already 30 and it’s only 9.30am! So it’s fill up the esky with ice throw in a few beers, some sandwiches and head to the water hole with the fur kids. Nothing like summer in Oz!

        Cheers everybody :-

  21. I apologize if this becomes a long post, but I read all the comments and just thought I would share my story. I just severed ties with this person a week ago, so it is still fresh.

    I actually had no idea what was happening while I was going through things with him. All I know is that I was constantly upset or crying after our interactions because he always made me feel like my version of thinking was wrong (I didn’t know about gaslighting until now). We had only known each other for a few months, but he really dug into my life like no one before – “too much, too soon” is the reality. He started talking to me, lots of deep questions, probing my faith and my life. He told me he just wanted a real friend because he was tired of people being fake. I didn’t see his lack of deep friendships as a red flag, because he is an immigrant, so I just thought he hadn’t met many people.

    Anyhow, within the first month he attached himself so much to my life that we saw each other almost everyday. In all his stories he was a ‘victim’, and he was a professed nihilist, but always looking for God to save him. He loved to talk, mostly about himself and his emotional turmoils. I was going through a lot myself emotionally, so we really bonded in that way. At first I thought he cared about me, but was going through depression because he was alone with no family here.

    Things changed a lot in the second month. We kissed, then he apologized and said he didn’t mean to blur the lines; but then he would constantly blur the lines. We kissed again, and when I asked him what he wanted, he said he never wanted a relationship or anything serious – which should have been another red flag – he never committed to anything or apologized for anything. To be honest I was really starting to like this man, but decided to keep it friendly. He upped the ante and started acting desperate to see me. Then we would have weird conversations where he would flirt and say things like “if two people spend a lot of time together, then they love each other right?” When I ask for clarity a week later he said, ‘oh I wasn’t talking about us, I said “IF two people”‘…

    Then when I had enough of his taunting, he tried to use sex as a tactic. I told him I wasn’t interested so he said he was going to move away to another country. At this, I said I would help him plan his future then, and make a decision about where he wanted to go (because he’s always ‘soo uncertain’ – unless I call him out) then he said, “well if my life is going to be so difficult I’m just going to kill myself”. I told him BS, that I knew he would not, and the man LAUGHED!!! he actually laughed, and looked at me like I had found out one of his tricks. And even though I saw this, something in me stayed his friend, because when someone threatens suicide, as a conscientious person I wanted to make sure he was okay.

    That’s not even the 1/2 of it, but needless to say he messed with my head a lot. Whenever he sensed I was not interested, the flirting would start, and the talk about love or attraction to my body. Then he would say “but I told you we are just friends”. He started ignoring me about 2 weeks ago when I went away on vacation. When I asked him what that was about, he got angry. Actually, I think he has moved on to other prey. I have not spoken with him since and hopefully that is our last conversation. What I hated the most looking back, was how much he tried to undermine my faith with all his nihilistic talks. It’s like he didn’t want me to have anything to hold onto.

    Thanks to everyone for sharing, at least now I know what I went through

  22. Great info. The secretive aspect of narc/sociopathic abuse isn’t focused on enough. Its a prime pillar of driving a target to ruin, since if you’re never believed, you get abused all over again even by the undisordered. I was always fascinated by how many stories there are throughout history of one or two family members who drop off the face of the earth intentionally and lead private lives far from their family of origin. Often decades later after death, the original family has no clue why uncle or aunt so and so took off and was never heard of again. This covert abuse that’s excellently explained here is the key to many if not most of these cases. You learn pretty fast no ones going to believe your stories of torture or overcome the stigma of being called crazy and unstable by some or all of you immediate family. I’m an extremist that has decided the only fully successful no contact plan is usually one that’s an absolute severing with no information of your whereabouts or any aspect of your current life to any and all satellite associates with your psychopathic parents / sibs / adult children.

    1. M.A.,
      My CD ex-brother dropped off the face of the earth because his mask fell and he was confronted. If he is out there telling people he was abused and mistreated then he is exactly what we have discovered he is and that’s a liar who covertly manipulates, parasitic, lacks impulse control, never takes responsibility for anything he has done wrong, creates chaos, invents reasons for not working and emotionally abuses those who confront him. My ex-bro is the sociopath who I’m thrilled has gone NC with us and if others believe his story then I wish them luck if they allow him into their life, he has done inexcusable damage to our family and my parents died thinking it was all their fault.
      “Undisordered” how about enlightened and empowered not to tolerate THEIR abuse anymore!

      The line

      1. High Five Sydney!!!!!!!!! Well said.

        Me too sociopathic brother and sociopathic daughter. I have no idea as to the fate of the brother, the last time I saw him was at my father’s funeral over 10 years ago. Again that ended with a suicide of my former partner when brother dearest used triangulation and pitted us against each other causing no amounts of problems then we split up. Daughter launched a smear campaign against me tried to turn everybody against me and succeeded with my sister and former best friend (both those two are on the spectrum as well). Flying monkey have to be in order to engage in such treacherous behavior. I have turned my back on them and will not engage with my daughter for the term of my natural life. My son has also done the same. She went after him and his partner once I went NC with it.

        They are a malignant human cancer on this face of this planet and they must be purged – how? We starve them out of existence that’s how.

    2. M.A.

      I am so glad you said this and great post. More and more people are becoming aware of what constitutes a CD person. I am grateful for all the information that is being presented. I have to say my intent is drop off the face of the earth so to speak to relieve myself of these life energy blood suckers. They truly serve no useful purpose.

      Another important point is, if the true factual truth be known, how many people have actually committed suicide to relieve themselves from bondage of the CD. This has been a much overlooked phenomena in families where CDN is rampant.

      Thank you for your input and validation!

      1. BTOV / M.A.

        Exactly, familial suicide there are always alarm bells. Particularly when someone successful and loved does so and without warning. There is something way more insidious at play. These are the ones who are unable to navigate through their dark night of the soul.

        It has been a much MUCH over looked phenomena BTOV and I think we should band together and rock that boat! I just heard of yet another suicide just the other day. Again nobody saw it coming and he did it on Father’s Day not that the day necessarily indicated it was related to his father. Something fishy going on there.

        CDMNSP destroy families, they destroy other people’s relationships they attempt and often succeed in destroying other people period. They
        are engineers of chaos. I personally think they are all cursed. Much like vampires. Cursed to roam the Earth never truly happy, always craving for that blood (soul/life force of ours) in which to feed off. Casting no reflection in the mirror – they have no substance just a cursed, putrid evil stalking and preying upon humanity.

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