Manipulators Come In Two Varieties

Manipulators and Covert-Aggression

Manipulators are mostly covert-aggressors. That is, they get the better of you by carefully cloaking their aggressive intentions. They convince you they’re only trying to help when they’re out to control. They make you think they’re the injured party when they’re attacking you. Your gut tells you they’re only trying to get the better of you. But because they know to convince you otherwise and how to charm, you doubt your instincts. And that’s how they subtly get you to cave in to their wishes. (For more, see: Manipulators Are Covert-Aggressors.)

Covert-aggression is an effective strategy. Manipulators know this well. If you you knew without a doubt what they were up to, you’d be less likely to be duped. That insight and hundreds of case histories led me to write In Sheep’s Clothing. And that book has become internationally recognized as perhaps the definitive work on the subject. But manipulators actually come in two varieties. A few manipulators are more overt aggressors. And they rely on a strategy other than deception to have their way.

Overt Aggressor Manipulators

Both overt and covert aggressors count on one thing: the characteristics of their targets. For the most part, covert-aggressors prey on those they know as good-natured and conscientious.  So, they’re likely to press your guilt and shame buttons to advance their agendas. But some aggressors simply count on what they know to be your main personality characteristics and your core emotional issues. They know you and what makes you tick. Perhaps they know you better than you know yourself. So they can predict how you’ll respond to certain types of attack.

I remember one case where a man’s core issue was abandonment. His mother had deserted the family when he was quite young and he never got over it.  And what he yearned for most in life was to feel safe and secure, especially with a woman. He would do anything to fend off the possibility of desertion. His wife knew this well all too well. So, for years she used the threat of leaving to keep him in line. In another case, a woman struggled with chronic low self-esteem. Her minor disability made her feel undesirable. Who else would want her, she often wondered. And her husband used his knowledge of this to get whatever he wanted from her.

The Keys To Empowerment

You empower yourself when you know yourself and the issues that make you vulnerable. And you empower yourself further when you know the tactics manipulators use to exploit your vulnerabilities. But perhaps the greatest empowerment results from your determination to define the terms for engagement with you. Aggressively-predisposed personalities will always fight for what they want. But when they know how firm you;ll be with limits and boundaries, it changes the game.

I’ll have more to say on the keys to empowerment in the next few posts.

Character Matters will be broadcast live Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 7 pm EDT, so I can take calls. Join the discussion at (718) 717-8296, (501) 258-8326, or Skype at georgeksimon.

As always, my sincere thanks for recommending this blog and my books to others.


145 thoughts on “Manipulators Come In Two Varieties

  1. And the very sad fact is. They pritty much get away with it all their lives.

    Dispite this I will always feel glad that I have a conscience. Because I can love
    something , anything other than myself. I can be happy, I can be sad. The thing is I will never feel pity for them. I am just glad I have Knowlege. It is to me like a disease and these DC’S have it, I do’nt. They have a contagion, you just have to recognize the symtoms of these diseased people, because it could be harmful or even at the extreme end fatal

    1. Just wondering… does anyone have an idea if these Narcs envy us for our ability to feel emotions such as love, empathy etc? Or do they pity us? Or maybe they give it no though at all…

        1. Joey,

          I have never seen this site before. She explains things very well. What this woman is writing about is a conglomeration of what is all over the web. What I find most helpful is this blog, in that we have a Doctor who has a lifetime of experience dealing with these individuals and has written in depth for many years including using case studies. I think what I disliked about this blog is when this woman said it was illegal to copy any of her material. Really, what makes her thing she has a market on what has been written already, except reworded.
          Red Flag!

          What I feel is of real importance here are the real testimonies of people who have gone or are going through direct relationships with the CDN. I think I have many times argued with individuals who insinuate and actually accuse the victim of enjoying the sick relationship the CDN spins. Also, when Dr. Simon posted the topic in the Ten Commandments of Character about our gifts, I told Lucy it was her gifts and character the CDN envied. Once we see the truth the rest comes relatively easy. Unless, of course, we are relating personal experiences.

          I think you already know, it is your strength of character your mother and g-mother coveted and envied. No matter what they did and for how long, they were unable to break you, that is how strong you are, Joey. I truly admire your tenacity and strength to have endured.

          In this respect, I don’t think we can be classified as enablers, we were honorable in our intentions until we finally seen through the fog. It is our goodness and tender hearts they would pierce. Except, they underestimated your kindness for weakness. We are stronger than we realize and that is because we lack the superficial vanity they wear.

      1. No, from everything I’ve read (over a dozen books & countless online articles), they don’t pity (pity requires empathy) us nor are they envious. They simply see us as easy targets they can manipulate with impunity. Their lack of empathy prevents them from feeling anything other than the need for selfish attainment of their chosen goal-complete control over another person.

  2. This topic is the one area I find the most prevalent in my life. It is an insidious trait that allows so much damage to go unchecked. I am not easily duped and I back away from manipulation in a heart beat but what is hard to live with is the covert manipulators who have enablers too.

    I have a step-son who has one of the best covert manipulators as a mother, he went on to marry a much older woman who is a manipulator and he is now remarried to a covert manipulator.

    We no longer attend family weddings, grads, birthdays etc. as we went NC with his mother and her enabling victim of a second husband. We went limited contact with my stepsons present wife and this has created a near non existent relationship with the stepson as a result.

    The frustrating and damaging part is the role of the current wife. She has successfully undermined us, she has used exclusion tactics but she will display interest and kindness towards us when other people can witness how nice she is. We are convinced she will later say to her husband/ her family and friends how hard she tries but we just seem cold and distant, all we are doing is protecting ourselves but paying a price.
    My stepson and her parents are her number one fans. Our stepson is blind to her tactics and she has done what she set out to do and that was to divide and conquer.

    We know how she does it, we know why she does it but WHY can’t WE stop these creatures??

    1. SYdNeY,

      Joey hit the nail on the head. It’s knowledge! Also, Dr. Simon further expands on this in the above article: “You empower yourself when you know yourself and the issues that make you vulnerable. And you empower yourself further when you know the tactics manipulators use to exploit your vulnerabilities. But perhaps the greatest empowerment results from your determination to define the terms for engagement with you. Aggressively-predisposed personalities will always fight for what they want. But when they know how firm you;ll be with limits and boundaries, it changes the game.”

      It’s seems to me you have stopped playing into her hands and have her number. However, others don’t. It may take a long time before others catch on, and that is depending how disordered she is, they are and also your step son, it will also depend if and when the step-son opens his eyes to the CD’s sick behavior. I am sure your step son has an inkling there is a problem with his wife and she has CD issues. Once married, many times it is easier to ignore, rather than face the facts of the CD behavior and actively do something about it. On the other hand, the CD may decide the grass is greener and discard your step-son at some point.

      I believe we are actively take a stand against the CD in society when we break the link to any individuals, be it our neighbors, people we work with and our own family when we stand up and say NO More. In many instances we may need to cut off our own children and this is very hard to do, but it is the initial step in the right direction to standing up to these individuals.

      I find it is far healthier to keep them out of my life than to deal with the chaotic drama the CD create. Also, once the CD know you are onto them, they will stop at nothing to cause you pain, misery and ultimately the covert thought process is to destroy you as a perceived adversary.

      We are doing something when we hold our ground and stay true to our morale compass. Many of us are involved with the CD and haven’t a clue to who and what they are, not that we are enablers or willing flying monkeys, we truly don’t know. Once we find out who and what we are dealing with and deal with them accordingly we are in essence stopping them.

      The progress will be slow and take time. However, the more people who become aware and knowledgeable about the CDN and we as a whole refuse to back down or buckle to their sick ways, we can make a difference.
      Be it “One at a Time.”

      If you look at all the people who have been transformed and have taken back their lives from happening upon Dr. Simon’s blog. I know, looking back from when I first came to this blog how it has changed my life. Also, all the stories of others who came here and are still posting how it has changed their lives. It is happening, slowly, but surely. We pay forward and educate the next one and whomever, asks for our help and will listen.

        1. Joey,

          What and amazing Ted talk. This is the truth we need to hear and this woman is sincere. I had to take a double take on myself and admit she is right about everything shes says. This woman isn’t plagiarizing and profiteering solely for her own benefit like the other woman Shahida, this woman is confronting our deficiencies in a positive light for the benefit of mankind and to help humanity.

          What a powerful message, to look at ourselves and be truthful, to stop the lies and grow as human beings and live our life in truth. This woman is helping us confront ourselves in a kind an loving way, to look inward and be the best we can be. She is confronting our nature to lie to ourselves about painful issues and giving us a road map to rise up and be the masters of our souls.

          Joey, this is the positive and enlightening message we need to hear. I know it struck home with me and I needed to hear this powerful message. I sent it to myself so I can save it and listen to it again when I get stuck.
          Thank you for taking the time to search it out. (((((Hugs))))))

          1. BTOV this is the core component of the work known as The Fourth Way of GI Gurdjieff – he had a huge capacity to make sure people caught themselves in the act of lying to themselves. Very helpful in becoming truly authentic. It’s the only way we can be true to ourselves. MAN KNOW THYSELF!

            Also a prerequisite is doing the clinical psychology on ourselves as well. That’s dissecting our personalities and acknowledging all our early maladaptive childhood schemas because those are the originators of the lies we tell ourselves and are the root causes of self sabotage.

          1. I agree, Eudox. From what I have read thus far of Gurdjieff, he is a brilliant man. Thanks for posting.

  3. BTOV thank-you for your comment, I completely agree that knowledge is power and I do agree too that my stepson is aware things are a bit “off” with his current wife but they were “off” with his mother, his first wife and now his current wife.

    We could never go to stepson and tell him things from our perspective because he wouldn’t see it. His wife is so covert with her manipulations that she has many people dancing to her whims. Her own father at her wedding when making a toast said
    ” Jane will do anything to get what she wants”. My husband and I just stared at each other.

    What is galling is her approval rating among the rest of the family. She is by all appearances popular, has a good job, very active and social but man is she a manipulative bitch! Her stepdaughters seem to simper and kowtow to her when they are around her yet this manipulator went after their father when he was with THEIR mother!!! The one daughter announced at the wedding “Dad, I’ve never seen you so happy”. Wow what a slap in the face to her biological mother who she was still living with! I am convinced their behavior to his current wife is to make sure they enjoy a decent relationship with their father. Her aim was to alienate us and she did it with flying flags but it comes across as us being cold and unresponsive to gatherings, no where would it be on the radar that the current wife & first wife are responsible for the covert smear campaign.
    As I said this is my stepson, so my emotional investment in the relationship is running on empty especially after the past couple of father’s days when he has coincidentally come up with excuses not to see his father. One excuse was “I’m in the middle of a domestic situation and I’m sure you’d understand”. Um, grow up, and will your wife not be seeing her own father either is what I would have asked! I needed to vent.

    1. SYdNeY,

      You are very welcome. This CD woman knows you have her number. As you know the CD like to isolate their scapegoat. Your step-son just said he was in the middle of a domestic situation, I wonder whose? He maybe in over his head and at this stage in life does not want another divorce and loves her. He probably caves in and accepts her behavior and dictates as it is easier than fighting with her. Also, remember it is more difficult for men to come forward in a CDN relationship and admit they have been used and duped.

      I am not surprised its all about her family, as she is looking towards what her parents will do for her and leave her. CDN are usually quite savvy in their control of non N individuals. Your step-sons daughters may well be intimidated by this woman and don’t know exactly what they are dealing with. It’s unfortunate how a CDN can control a whole family, molding the next generation even the grandchildren to be at their beck and call.

      I have a family full of them, my CDN sister said she had her children so they can take care of her in old age. Her 3 daughters don’t make a move without her input and the grandchildren are her next in line of doting upon her. In the line I am anticipating one of them will be a CDN themselves and knock her off her throne as she ages and is unable to hold her ground.

      I went NC with almost all of them years ago and have never regretted it. The hard part is my mother is an Empath and gets sucked in. This is where I will hear bits and pieces. As hard as try to remind my mother all the rotten things they have done to her, she still will lie to herself hoping they have changed, only to be used again.

      Unfortunately, you will have to sit back and watch the show, try to distance yourself so your not brought into the loop. No matter what, the CDN will never let up in her distaste for you, they never forget a slight or anyone that has seen beyond their mask. The CDN will always want to get even and payback. The sad reality is the CDN will use your step-son and his children to get even too. Sadly, since the CDN manipulates them too, she will use them against you and to get information.

      I have to be careful with what I say to my mother as they are always asking about me. Its been over 20 years I have had anything to do with these snakes and they will go out of their way to drive past my home 20 miles from theirs. Never underestimate how sick they are and how deep their hatred goes.

      Take care and blessings

      1. BTOV, I’m in agreement about my stepson tolerating his wife’s behavior. He is the biggest procrastinator I have ever encountered and thinks that everything will simply work out, go away or be forgotten. He is a very self-absorbed person and from my stand point they deserve each other. Like I said my emotional tie is gone.

        I would gladly go no contact forever but I cannot ask that of my spouse. My husband sees his son’s wife for what she is and I’m grateful he has finally acknowledged it. It took a long time for him to admit that his son does not value us as he should and can be so easily manipulated with every woman he has encountered in his life. I think he is emotionally lazy if that’s the right way to describe him.

        It’s so true that everything is about her family, they can have her. My husband and I are so happy just puttering along and I go to such a negative place in my brain when I see his son’s phone number or email appear. Thanks again for your insight and I come to this site everyday to read and validate what I know is true about these CD miscreants.

    2. When a person spent a life with “off” people, “on” people will look like Martians.
      Stick around. Be a human in ghost house… have fun while you are at it. 🙂

      1. Andy D, aren’t we “on” people in his life? We are the polar opposite of his relationship with his mother, she is a needy covert manipulator, he was manipulated into marriage by a woman 14 years his senior who became pregnant and then had an up and mostly down marriage for 20 years. He isn’t even one hour out of that marriage and he’s moving in with the next covert manipulator. He is the poster child for enabling.

        His father and I have been constant even keeled people with no strings attached. With the other relationships with women there are constant expectations so why wouldn’t a person take the path of least resistance. I can only surmise that he is so selfish and self-centered he can’t gather the emotional strength to be bothered with us and makes excuses to justify his behavior.
        This man has set the bar very low and one day I hope to tell him that. If he wonders why we are cool and distant he needs to not expect more from us then he does from himself. Both of my parents passed away and I did not receive one phone call of condolence, I have been married to his father for 34 years. We ask for nothing and that’s what we get…nothing.

        1. SYdNeY,

          You added more information I may have missed in your other postings.
          I believe you are right. He sounds Co-Dependent too. There is such a thing as inverted narcissists too. It seems you know him very well and are a wise woman. Go with your instincts on this. Also, actions speak louder than words. This speaks volumes, there is something called common decency, you have been in his life for over 34 years.

          Only time will tell and it may take many hard knocks if ever for him to come around. I hate to say this, once our parents are gone, we are the next in line and the CDN know this. The smell of old age and money always seems to bring the CD out of the woodwork into the open. I would be cautious of a newly found concern for a relationship on the CD part.

          I am looking at a similar situation with my mother and myself. Out of nowhere I have a family member coming around after 15 years. ?????
          All I see are red flags and warning sirens going off.

          I hope you take all the necessary precautions and enjoy your life to the fullest. Take care Kindred Spirit

          1. BTOV

            YES! If ever CD shows any signs of concern I will be on high alert. I have her number so no fear there. I have nothing for her but contempt and she will never get a cent out of us. Our affairs are in order and she is going to have a long wait as she isn’t going to be sniffing death any time soon.

            I’ve never heard of inverted narcissism before….another topic I’ll read up on. Again, thank-you so much. You take care as well.

          2. SYdNey,

            In dealing with the CDN in my family, I was made out to be the difficult, uncompromising snooty one. Finally, after most of my life I found words that expressed and validated what no one could understand or accept as true.

            These words were liberating, expressing freedom and releasing chains of guilt and obligation the CD’s tried to hang around my neck. After reading this quote I have never given it another thought or felt a tinge of guilt. I have posted from time to time and hope these words will give comfort the same way I was comforted.

            Quote by : Samuel Butler

            I believe that more unhappiness comes from this source than from any other – I mean from the attempt to prolong family connections unduly and to make people hang together artificially who would never naturally do so.

  4. BTOV thank-you for the quote and yes it’s comforting because it says it all. It’s also comforting to know I can come here time and again to be validated and know that I’m never alone with my experiences. I’m so grateful my husband is on board with all of this because there were periods of depression and isolation. I finally said “people breakup over shit like this”. He turned to me and said “not us”.

    I’ve read other posters stories and my heart goes out to those that are struggling everyday with a CD spouse who share children, children raised by CDs those struggling through legal battles and I can’t imagine the trauma. I hope they too find some kind of kinship here to be able to carry on.

    1. Everyday I am grateful for the support I receive from here. I share children with my soon-to-be ex CD spouse. I also share a huge nasty expensive legal battle over finances. Yes, the trauma is huge but i will survive… thanks to this website, two fantastic friends and two of the most supportive children anyone could wish for. No matter what the CD did (and continues) to put me through I count myself very lucky that it have some truly amazing people in my life. He hasn’t. And his damage can now only be from a distance and via solicitors since I went no contact last September. (And boy did that send him crazy).
      I’m stronger now, and a hell of a lot wiser for all the knowledge I’ve gained reason about CDs.
      Hardest part for me will be sitting in the same room as him when it goes to court in September. How can it be deemed okay to make a victim of mental abuse sit in the same room as the perpetrator and be asked questions by his solicitor?

    2. Sydney and Everybody

      CD are more than capable of destroying friendships and families in fact they get off on it. They are malicious to the extreme. They can do more than just break up people, they can actually cause death. I’ve had a suicide and another premature death thanks to the underhanded, malicious lying tactics of CD. These people truly are evil.

      There have been many great comments on this article. Envy is the driving force behind their attacks. Envy and insecurity. They can’t stand seeing people emit natural joy and happiness. They have to smash it apart and they have any number of strategies for doing so. They are deplorable, vile filth – it oozes from their pores.

      BTOV touched on this previously in one of her comments and I have noticed as well that there is a massive groundswell taking place at present. It’s a counter-insurgence of people waking up to just what CD are and how they operate. To say waking up is an understatement, people are not only waking up they are standing up and taking notice. They are educating themselves like never before. But I will still maintain the most important thing to do in order to protect ourselves against them is to know ourselves – inside and out.

      The CD never engage in self work, if they do and start to detect something wrong with them, they will stop and go into deflective tactics by finding a scapegoat they can pin the blame on usually the mother. Except in Joey’s case where he unfortunately had two to contend with.

      Fortunately, in my case and only due to the fact I knew myself very well was I able to see something was horribly wrong and nip it in the bud before any of them could start up their more severe manipulation tactics. I knew I my ex best friend was up to no good, she did a number of things that reeked of a set up and I knew she was behind it. I packed up and moved out, I was not going to stay around them another minute longer.

      Again her motivation was envy pure and simple. She despised me for my own natural ability to make new friends and she was not the center of my Universe and she knew it. My CD daughter fueled her venom and they managed to recruit my sister then lied to my dying mother. It was actually priceless watching these parasites in action. When I look back I can clearly see what grovelling, little worm ridden pieces of filth they all are. How they truly show their deep insecurities and core menace becomes like a neon light when you know you are definitely not what you are accused of being and when you can clearly see it is nothing but a projection of themselves. The pure black hearted menace of soulless humans. Their arrogance will be their undermining. They think they are so much better and smarter than everybody else when in reality they are just delusional drones nothing but hatred on legs.

      Unfortunately there will always be innocent victims in all of this because they really are vile and putrid. It is unfortunately if our own mothers, daughters, sons or husbands or wives fit this bill but if they do they do then there is jack shit we can do about it. We can’t love them back into good heath and it is an effort in futility to even try. It’s time to cut our losses and move on and that is exactly what I did.

      They will stop at nothing to get what they want and they have no care for anybody they use in order to manifest what ever perverted desire they wish to bring about which is ultimately CONTROL. Unfortunately for them I am not very manipulable and you’de have to be a pretty shrewd operator to pull it off and that is only because I know myself. There was one blind spot that I’d overlooked for years though, but I am totally aware of it now so it can no longer be used as a weapon against me.

      There is definitely an upside to this though. Due to their propensity for evil, they all have set strategies that are the same so they can now be easily spotted. This assists us in sorting the wheat from the chaff and we can now only surround ourselves with people of our own kind natures. I feel for other’s who have to deal with them, I’ve severed ties with all of mine and for good. They will never cause me one shred of grief again.

      The real beauty of it is and this is what we must come to accept – they can’t change. Therefore that absolves us of any further responsibility to help them because they can’t be helped and we place ourselves in grave danger by trying. So forget it. They can’t suddenly spring out and be all shiny and new, they can’t regrow or repair a part of their brain that no longer works due to lack of use and pull out a different strategy – almost like default they revert back to the same shit. They are stuck in a groove. That’s their prison and it will be their ultimate demise.

      1. Eudoxia,
        “There have been many great comments on this article. Envy is the driving force behind their attacks. Envy and insecurity. They can’t stand seeing people emit natural joy and happiness. They have to smash it apart and they have any number of strategies for doing so. They are deplorable, vile filth – it oozes from their pores.”

        I’ve been told by others that jealousy has been a trigger for attacks from my “bullybitch” (ex-SIL), “DickFace” (ex-brother) and “Trashley” DIL. I have gone NC with two and LC with one.

        It’s hard to fathom why people go to such efforts to make another human beings life so miserable when in the end theirs is the most miserable of all. These CDs put on such a great show of confidence but yet are so insecure inside.

        Someone told me CDNs mellow in old age, do you think this is true?

        1. “Someone told me CDNs mellow in old age, do you think this is true?”

          Mostly false.
          They usually tend to learn wrong lessons from failures, for example, a person caught stealing verbalizes “I am sorry” but internally concludes “I am one sorry SOB, getting caught like an idiot, next time I will be very careful, catch me then you A$$holes.”

          In some cases, and more importantly when surrounded by disablers to squarely put the onus on them, the life teaches sufficient good lessons to mellow one down. But, how many of them get cornered like that.

          1. This is how I got caught. They just get better at getting what the WANT.
            They are just as malevolent, but become more insidious and covert in their tactics. Like gift giving,Gift after gift, BUT you wake up one day and find you have absolutely NO CONTROL in the environment in which you live and see these gifts as acts of KINDNESS. What you have is someone who has a predatory aspect to their character and in fact is laying traps and snares for their prey. The whole process of gifts being used as a more efficient means of controling and manipulating someone.

            Power, Control, Domination and Subjugation.

          2. From my experience all of the CDN worsen with age. The cuteness wears of and they become demented and childlike in their thinking and actions. The CDN regress to an earlier point in time, where their emotional developmental arrestment took place.

            You will begin to see the true selfish juvenile that resides behind the mask. If the CDN loses all his sources of supply and can’t fill the vacancy they tend to become more vile spewing forth their resentment of growing old. You will see, truly, how envious the CDN is. The mask will begin to crack and fall apart, not a pretty site at all.

            The CDN are aware of who and what they are and hate society and everyone in it for their decrepit disintegration. The CDN will never take responsibility for their actions, instead they will blame everyone and anything for their loss of predation status of a full fledged life destroyer. Their bitterness and anger will not abate.

            A perfect example of the CDN in old age is a movie made in 1945
            called the Picture of Dorian Gray, I would encourage you to watch it, I have attached a clip.


        2. Sydney,

          CDNs get much worse with age. They seem to lose hold of what they once had to barely keep their act together. They lose “friends”, people cannot tolerate them forever. My special SB is a lose cannon. He doesn’t care who he hurts. Best to stay NC is you can.

        3. Sydney – mellow with age? I would take what ever that person says with a large grain of salt! What do you think? Not from my understanding no they don’t. They only atrophy further and most information I have on them is they definitely get worse with age. Particularly as they lose their own place in the pecking order they become even more unstable and insecure. They lose friends and they lose family members, this embitters them even further. If there is one thing CD hate it’s losing. Of those friends and family left in the CDs life then they will be the ones next in line for supply and if they tolerate abuse will become enablers – if they don’t they will stop seeing them.

          They are truly pathetic creatures having spent a life dedicated to trying to control and dominate others in an effort to feel secure by making others feel small and irrelevant. Having led a life of such evil manipulative depravity then they deserve to die alone, and unwanted.

          The most insane thing about it is they actually think they have fooled us into thinking they are good by claiming to be so LOLOLOL. OMG the joke is on them. The more they dig in the more they show themselves to be spiritually dead vessels of nothing. Wastes of space and oxygen thieves.

          Now the CD are out of my life and as life would have it. Nature abhors a vacuum and that vacuum is being filled by decent, caring spiritually oriented people who I am thoroughly enjoying being authentic with, without the need to withhold a part of myself in order to not rock their insecure anxiety ridden boat! It’s a breath of fresh air indeed.

        4. SydNey I overlooked your question of what they have to make other people so miserable. That’s simple. Misery loves company, because they are miserable in themselves, they are miserable just being them because they are empty pits of nothing. As they have to do other things, anything to avoid being them, they find menacingly creative ways to avoid themselves from feeling empty and dead. Generally by making every effort to bring others down to their miserable level of existence because they hate happiness and joy in others. They have to deflate others to puff themselves up. They are soul rapists. It’s the human version of rabies, thankfully it’s not contagious.

  5. It seems good as Dr. Simon says to learn how people manipulate us and to figure out how best to deal with it without letting them get the best of us. BUT that can take a toll on many of us. It wears on you to always have to be ready for the manipulation. Thus I think any time you can disconnect from these people, that is the best way out. I have not regretted such disconnects. That can be difficult in itself because the manipulator usually doesn’t want to give up such an easy target. Unfortunately if kids are involved even a divorce and move doesn’t totally disconnect you. I am watching my eldest son being used by his father. It is putting stress on his marriage. It is possibly even endangering his health. I have tried to not involve my sons in my problems with their dad, but did finally tell him some incidents from the past. He hears some of it but has not extricated himself. I pass on articles from Dr. Simon to his wife in the hope that she can help him understand what his father is doing.
    I have remarried a man who is not at all a manipulator and is a wonderful kind human being. Unfortunately when you remarry, even if you get it right, you get his kids and ex in the bargain. His ex and his daughter are manipulators too. With the help of Dr. Simon’s articles I have educated him to what they are doing. I am not sure he still fully believes that they know exactly what they are doing, but I am now convinced they do. It helps me to deal with them now that I understand that they are aware of what they are doing . We have moved from close proximity to his ex and have limited contact now with his daughter. Best part of my life is right now! I still need to deal with these people on a limited basis, but I feel much better prepared to do so.
    One of the things I think you have to let go of is caring how they portray you to others. You cannot stop them from doing that, and you just have to trust that others who know you well will not fall for it. If others believe them, you don’t need them in your life. There are good people out there who don’t manipulate, and a few good people in your life is all you need. Divorcing, moving, changing jobs, to get away from those who have used and abused you and know all your triggers is worth it if you can manage it. And then be wary and aware to not let other manipulators into your life.

  6. Kacey,

    Thanks for sharing. I liked everything you had to say mainly because it mirrored much of what I’ve been through. I feel for your son and having to deal with your manipulative ex husband. I too remarried after a traumatizing CD in my life but it also set me up to recognize these traits in others. Every time someone attempts to manipulate me I get so turned off I simply walk away. I have been remarried for many years now and the difference is night and day when we can share our lives with someone who has no ulterior motives.

    You also wrote,
    “One of the things I think you have to let go of is caring how they portray you to others. You cannot stop them from doing that, and you just have to trust that others who know you well will not fall for it. If others believe them, you don’t need them in your life”.

    It’s been one of the things that drag me down mentally and I have the “freedom of choice” to stop it. Work in progress.

    1. SYdney, I know what you mean about a work in progress….none of this is easy, just better. I have to remind myself sometimes of an event shortly after I got divorced. I was talking to someone who had been a friend of us as a couple. I told her I wasn’t going to talk about my reasons as she and her husband had been friends to both of us. She replied, “you don’t have to, we just wondered why you didn’t do it sooner”. Wow! They knew and understood. I was pleasantly surprised. I try to assume now in other situations that the same will hold true…..

      1. Kacey,
        I know how this couple feels, I have witnessed covert dysfunction in couples and then had to stand back and watch. We have a neighbor couple who we socialize with once, maybe twice a year and we’ve decided we aren’t even doing that anymore because of the way he talks to her and the obvious way he doesn’t like women who have an opinion. It’s demeaning to watch her cater to him but I can only be there for her if she came to me first. My husband doesn’t like him either. Now, if she were to ask us over I might tell her why we can’t but it’s our turn so I think we’re done. She is such a fun loving person and it’s such a shame to see him take advantage of her good nature.
        On another note a very, very good friend of mine left her husband years ago, he is a CDN and I had caught him cheating early in their marriage when they had 3 small children. I didn’t tell her. When they broke up and we reconnected we told each other some things we knew about each others ex-husbands (our exes were best-friends) and she told me she was glad I hadn’t told her about the cheating because she would have had to do something about it and I would have been told to get lost. She wasn’t prepared to give up on her marriage then. Some people want to know and some people don’t. I cherish this friend and we tell each other this often. She has gone on to meet and date other CDN men but they sure don’t last long!

    2. “One of the things I think you have to let go of is caring how they portray you to others. You cannot stop them from doing that, and you just have to trust that others who know you well will not fall for it. If others believe them, you don’t need them in your life”.

      EXACTLY – this is a biggy. If we have not personally done anything wrong to a person we’ve known for some time even years and they suddenly snub us. You can be certain it is a result of a smear campaign. They are actually showing us they too are of extremely shallow nature and probably CD as well and in the case of flying monkeys are just inverted narcs. Fly far far away and don’t look back. That was a mistake I made trying to rectify their shit – nope these cowards are not worth it.

      1. Eodoxia, you have put it in words better than I did. If people who have known us snub us because of a disinformation campaign, they are shallow and we are better off without them.

        My husband’s ex tried a disinformation campaign to me about someone else. I put together what I knew about the person (and her mode of acting and motives) and trusted my instincts. And I was right about him. Her smear was vicious and designed for her own benefit. Since I know she did an disinformation campaign against me when we married I am sure she has done another one since we had a blow up and moved from living next door to her (stupid thing to do in the first place). I have written to some people we knew there and invited them to visit us here and heard nothing. Several friend who know what she is like have remained friends. So I just need to write off the others and enjoy my new friends here. I will never let her into our life here in any way.

        Funny thing is I know stuff about her and her past that would, if I told it, destroy her standing in the community where she lives. I have been so tempted so many times to tell the truth. And she knows what I know. Why would she risk dissing me with lies when I can destroy her with the truth. Perhaps for all her deviousness she knows I am not like her and not interested in destroying people’s reputation.??? In the past I would have thought that she forgets that stuff, believes in her own perception of herself and believes the lies she tells about us. I found Dr. Simon’s work in time and realize now that she knows exactly what she is doing.

        So the heck with those who believe her lies. I don’t need people who would believe things without questioning. And I don’t want to become like her by dissing her. So I am resolved to move on. I have a quote on my refrigerator “Don’t look back, you are not going that way!”

        But it does still hurt that she would do that, hurt that others would believe it. 🙁

        1. I have to keep saying this to myself!
          “Don’t look back, you are not going that way!”

          We who have integrity and decency will always hurt when others talk shit about us. I have lost countless nights of sleep thinking how unjust it is for these CDs to lie, and how some choose to believe those lies.

          1. We just have to accept that the “friends of the SB will bieve the lies. Nothing we can do about it. But they aren’t our friends anyway are they? My SB has been telling his coworkers that I tried to kill him. They think I’m nuts. So be it. Aren’t my friends or aquaintances anyway and they will eventually see the light. Only a matter of time before he burns them.

        2. Kacey I can clearly see the temptation to do so is great it is for all of us at some stage. Something to not even consider though, believe me I’ve been tempted to do the same. But that only brings us down to their level even if we have got truth. Because they have absolutely no morals whatsoever they will stop at nothing to totally destroy us – they are practiced liars. Even if the truth far outweighs the lies it’s best that we remain in integrity. Let them destroy themselves because they will eventually.

          The best form of revenge is to be most unlike your enemy – Marcus Aurelius.

          The one thing the CD absolutely hate is to be ignored. The best thing we can do is dismiss them totally. Wipe them off the board altogether. That lets them know they are totally irrelevant nothings in our life. This will torment them for eternity. Basically because they are disordered they literally run on anxiety, fear and deep insecurities, they are always plotting and scheming how to stay in a “on up” position and how to win. To deny them a win and any access in order to further their game and accomplish that win by total subjugation drives them crazy. Because they think we’ve actually gotten away with something, well we have we’ve gotten away from THEM! See in their twisted world it is their asshole behavior that ultimately brings negative consequences. They don’t like this, as specially when they can’t manipulate us and it backfires in their face, so in their insanity they think they must met out punishment and make us pay for how they feel! They are the worst scum on the planet and not worth a passing thought really.

          Kacey try to move on from the hurt of others believing it, it is sad but many do that and it is due to their own lack of loyalty and shows they are very shallow and emotionally empty people as well. Be grateful they revealed themselves and are now out of your life. We can’t afford to have people like that in our lives, it’s that simple. They are treacherous moral cowards and can’t be trusted with any aspect of friendship because they do not have solid foundations or a moral compass. They have already revealed themselves and they would be the first to sell you out or stick a knife in your back. Be grateful Kacey that you saw through them early and not further down the track when that knife might have been able to kill you.

          Kacey acceptance is everything, just accept they are assholes and it will help you be grateful for the few less assholes in your life – and remember nature does abhor a vacuum so let’s hope in your case they are replaced by quality. Because now you know the difference -smiley face-!!

          1. Two gems, thank you
            “The best form of revenge is to be most unlike your enemy – Marcus Aurelius.”
            “The one thing the CD absolutely hate is to be ignored. The best thing we can do is dismiss them totally. “

  7. “… They can predict how you wil respond to certain types of attackes. “. I’ve watched this played out during this long divorce process. I know his game. And yes it is a game changer.

  8. ‘Beauty is Truth’s smile when she sees her own reflection in a perfect mirror’
    Rahindranath Tagore

    thankyou to all the beautiful non-aggressive people on this site and everywhere, we are mirrors for each other

  9. Something good happened to us today. I emailed the owner of the house next door to let them know their young renters haven’t quite got the hang of the garbage vs recycling bins. The city will not pick-up if they are not done right. I knew the email address by doing some research when the owners moved out and renters moved in. Their email address was on Kijiji and I kept a note of it. I identified myself in the email and then I thought this is going to go either way, either the two owners who are brothers are going to tell us to get lost and mind our own business or we’d hear nothing.

    Well, we received a big thank-you card in the mail, with a gift certificate to our local coffee shop and a note of gratitude for going out of our way to sort things out and to let them know if anything else comes up. How nice was that!? Average nice people interacting with other average nice people, go figure.

    1. SYdNeY,

      That’s how I remember the world was 70 years ago. How refreshing to know, it lends one hope. Time sure flys.

      1. Yes, it was a bonus knowing two young brothers in their late 20s early 30s made a gesture like this.
        It was also a pleasant surprise considering when we received the large envelope we groaned thinking it was yet another wedding invitation, ha, ha.

    2. I’m not sure how it works in the US Sydney but over here us neighbors would generally say ” Gidday Mate you’ve got the wrong bin out – that one’s next week”

  10. Eudoxia, if life were so simple.

    In my part of Canada two bins are picked up once a week. It would have been normal for us Canadians to have approached them and said “sorry to tell you this but your putting the wrong things in the wrong bins”. Our neighbors are phantoms we literally never see them and now there’s no garbage or recycling at all. Very strange. Oh well, have a great day …

    1. LOL great! Probably got a crystal meth lab happening. Lucky you! Good job you contacted them then, I could not quite wrap my head around why you would go to all that trouble – that explains it. No garbage at all – now that is odd in fact very.

      I don’t know about you but I’m sorta wondering WTF they’re eating?? Lock your doors at night SYdNeY!

  11. But truly disturbed characters need something else. Life and consequences need to teach them what loving relationships alone can’t: that their very ways of seeing and doing things need to change.

    Usually Just the tactics and strategy the use to get what they want. The become more efficient in their manpulation

    1. Joey – that might be the case, however, people are now starting to see just how clever their manipulation has become and are starting to make a stand. Targets are now becoming more aware that is what they are in the eyes of the truly disturbed. Victims/survivors are now self adjusting, and are aware of the tactics. We are saying NO THANKS and taking a walk. A big walk right away from them. One day they’ll have no prey left. Then they get to eat themselves.

      1. It is what happened to me.
        What I was trying to say was when you abandon them that it might just be the kick in the ass they needed. But it could go completly the other way.
        So by abanding them you are accually helping yours self to heal and potentially the CD to do the same.

  12. My ex-husband was a sociopath. I had two children with him before I divorced him. My one child wanted nothing to do with him, called him a sperm donor, not a Dad. The other has taken on many similar characteristics. She lies, manipulates and uses her knowledge about what bothers me to get to me. She turns some people against me with lies. She has also done this with my granddaughter who is now a teenager. The granddaughter now doesn’t even want me to come over but my daughter of course denies that she feels that way. I know the only option for me if I want to carry on a relationship is to not let them get to me, not let them make me feel bad and set my boundaries on how I will or will not be treated. The problem is, I have low self-esteem and I do let them get to me no matter how much I try to not let it even though I set boundaries. I am saddened that my granddaughter is now acting similar, we were close when she was growing up because I was with her a lot due to my daughters circumstances at the time. It makes me really angry on one hand because I feel she has ruined my granddaughters life, and on the other hand I feel the same thing was done to her by her Dad, although I did not know what was going on at the time, it wasn’t until much later I realized he was a sociopath. I can’t save my grandaughter, she lives under her mothers influence, not mine. What would you do in this situation? Most of the time I am only talking on the phone to my daughter, not actually spending time with her and my granddaughter only comes over when she needs a place to spend the night when it is convenient or she has no other choice. Just writing this makes me feel like a real wimp, but she is my daughter and I don’t want to cut ties.

  13. If you cut ties something will change. Whether this is something you want or not I could not say.

    If you stay as you are, nothing will change. It will remain the same !
    I walked away from my mother who had terminal cancer. Something changed. I got to see things more clearly. If you are not there then you cannot be doing the bad thing they tell the world and his wife you are doing.
    You could take a break from the friction and get some me time in. When you see things more clearly you can go back and take a look, and say hello

    1. Thank you Joey, I think because of my upbringing and my sociopath ex-husband I am so beat down. I have no friends and feel like nobody would want to get to know me. I isolate myself. So basically I am alone except for one of my sisters who I am close to. I have abandonment issues big time and so its extremely hard to let go. But I get what you are saying – nothing will change if I don’t change what I am doing. I have been taking a course on boundaries but no amt. of boundary setting is enough, I can’t stop the lies from her and the denial. Basically I only talk to her on the phone, but I talk to her just about every day.

      1. Kate separating from someone with a character disorder can be hard but you did it with your husband. But to do it with a child and grandchild is so much harder. But it might be the very thing that pushes them to change. Setting boundaries is really hard for any of us and I think that until we get stronger distance from users is best for us and them. Maybe practice boundary setting with people you are less bound to, people who don’t know your weaknesses.
        If you have a sister you are close to that is great. We don’t really need lots of people to be close to. One or two close relationships is really enough. We just think we need more.

        1. The first step Kacey, was looking for somewhere to get help and you did it by finding this site. I was in the same place as you are right now and I didn’t know where to turn. It was when I realized what “setting boundaries” meant and a whole new world opened up for me because I got my sense of self back. If someone is making you feel bad about yourself then it’s time to set boundaries, “you have the right to a happy and healthy life”.

          Listen to the sound and solid advice from these articulate, intelligent and insightful posters, it will be amazing how you will find the strength within. (hugs)

          1. Sydney, thank you. I haven’t had a sense of self I don’t think my whole life – I am kind of having an identity crisis this late in my life! I was a wife, a Mom and grandma and now I feel all are old enough not to need me anymore so I am out of identities! lol. Guess I can build one from the ground up. I just joined a writers club and hoping I can finally indulge my desire to write. Thanks for the hugs and hugs to you as well. Yes, much to learn from these posts, it is good to know I am not alone in being manipulated by a sociopath and realizing later what was really going on. Unfortunately they do their damage but I know we can all heal and be stronger for it in time.

        2. Kacey, yes it is much harder with my child and grandchild than my ex. The thing is, I don’t think anything is going to change either one of them. I could be wrong but they seem very dug into the way they are. I confronted her recently when she was trying to get me to not come over – my 3 other grandkids were over at her and her Mom’s house and I wanted to see all of them. I called her out on her texting, she was asking things like why are you coming over, and what are you going to do at my house and such, so I asked her – do you not want me to come over? What do you think I am going to do, I am coming over to see everyone. She denied not wanting me to come over but all of her texts were definitely “hinting” at me not coming over. This is the kind of thing that can make you feel like it may just be your imagination because both her and her Mom deny things when confronted. I guess in hindsight maybe I just should not have gone over and made a time to see my other grandkids at a later date. Maybe I should have said that I am getting the message from you that you don’t want me to come over, and I don’t want to go where I am not wanted. Have a nice day. That probably would have been a better response. I had already bought food to take over and didn’t want to waste it but I should have done things differently. Guess I am learning anyways.

          1. kat,
            She probably just want to indulge in mostly harm-less character-assassination (of course yours only) behind your back. Your presence ruined this plan.
            I feel bad about her. Character-assassination is birth-right of every cheapo… this is only way a cheapo feel good about self. 😀
            It may help you if you think things from right/wrong perspective, and just do them. If in this process you ruffle some feathers, then so be it.

        3. Kacey

          We only need others of our kind. We need to be able to freely express ourselves without being judged or constantly criticized. If we even only have one or two people related or not we can have this relationship with it’s all we need. I don’t give loyalty to those who abuse me or others. They are not the type of people I want in my life and won’t have them in my life regardless of if they are related to me or not.

          I have one person who is very close to me, I lost contact with her for about 18 months and found her again. This pissed the hell out of my former CD friend who became extremely envious. She even stole my mobile phone in a pathetic attempt to stop me from visiting her once I had re-established contact. What x CD F was not capable of understanding or comprehending is that it is important for people to discuss things of importance to them and truly share. Little Miss can’t be wrong had to try to prevent that at all costs, but failed. In their abject ignorance and arrogance they just don’t see they are actually encouraging us to move away from them in order to breath. That is exactly what she did. If I ever lay eyes on her again it will be entirely too soon.

          Since moving away I have formed some really amazing and solid friendships. These are few but it’s a matter of quality vs quantity. I’ve got lots of friends but there are only 2 or 3 who are really close and trustworthy confidants.

      2. I am completly alone too. When I say alone I mean alone. I have NO ONE. When I walked away, ” I walked away”
        Just to ask what do you like in life. What interests you.
        The point in changing things, is set your self a goal, “AND STICK TO IT”.
        Nothing big, say e.g going down the local coffe store buying a small coffe, and read a news paper. This is one of the small things I do on a saturday. I am a regular, they know me, and pour me my usual coffe. Nothing grand, but I am doing something. I will post this TED TALK FOR you to watch. Take a look and see if this boy inspires you. He did me ? are we really that hard done by, Read some of the posts and you will see.

        Keep the faith


        1. Joey, I have more friends on the internet who I have never met than in the physical world. On the internet you get a much wider choice! Seems like people here like you so I wouldn’t say that you are alone at all!

          1. Joey isn’t alone. He’s certainly got us. We care. We pay attention. We are friends here.

  14. Andy, thanks. I have a feeling they want to indoctrinate my other 3 grandkids into turning against me. They seem to thrive on it, and kids don’t know any better. My granddaughter asked when I was still there if I had left yet. I said no, darn, I’m still here. I hate thinking like this but I think their subtle indoctrination is beginning. They like to turn everyone that is around them against you with their lies.

    Joey, what a great video. I need to lower my expectations, feeling like I have to accomplish something big or that I need to be “happy” puts a lot of pressure on me. Happiness is such a fleeting feeling, better to be content, and I am working on being content with what I do have. If I can keep these perspectives in mind I will be in the right place. I like his idea of finding your interest(s). I pretty much lost track of what interests me, I have been so busy working and getting things done, but I need to find that and get something going, just something small to start and see where it can go.

    eudoxia, towards the end of the clip where they talk about a belief in Jesus as destroying the narcissists world it is so true. I am a Christian and that is the one thing that irks my daughter more than anything. She likes to tell people I am in a “cult”, jokingly of course, but as if I am way out there because I believe in salvation in Jesus. Shes makes jokes about David Koresh and “drinking the Kool-Aid”. My granddaughter is now thinking the same way.

    1. Kat

      The comments your daughter flicks at you about cults and drinking the Kool-Aid are what is known as “little digs” – google this and listen to people talking about what these are. These are strategies of covert narcs in order to get a raise out of you and/or put or keep you firmly in your place in order for them to maintain a “one up” position. They always have to be in a one up position. They are moral cowards and totally necrophilic in nature [“necrophilic character type,” whose aim it is to avoid the inconvenience of life by transforming others into obedient automatons, robbing them of their humanity -Eric Fromm].

      Family are seriously problematic and can and will cause you the most damage. Your daughter’s malice toward you, if anything like mine will be motivated by envy, power and control. At the core of mine (having done the necessary forensic psychology now on my entire family) I was able to put the pieces together. I could not understand how she could have become a MN seemingly overnight after attending a workshop. Since that workshop she attended my mother, my son and myself have all detected in her a hostility directed to us all that was not present before (mainly though to my mother and me). She didn’t – she was always that way it’s just that I missed it. I knew she had deep issues with abandonment as she wasn’t raised by me but my parents.

      Neither of my parents were physically abusive, however, they were both emotionally unavailable, or rather my daughter no doubt experienced childhood emotional neglect. It is wise to do the forensic psychology with regard to your own daughter and yourself as well. I am not suggesting any abuse on your part Kat but if we want to understand we must be brutally honest. We will all have, to some degree, due to our own parents some form of CEN – that is due to the generation at the time. Not necessarily due to bad parenting. Tragically, we can and often do as much as we can but sometimes that may not be enough and we can inadvertently damage our own children without intending to do so. What many generations have become conditioned to accept as normal is in fact abnormal.

      Recently a friend of mine sent me an article by Dr Jonice Webb about CEN – Childhood Emotional Neglect. CD are also rife in my friend’s family. CEN is the opposite of abuse and is complimentary to Dr Gabor Mate’s work in regard to addiction which according to Mate is caused by emotional neglect as well and the failure of a child to successfuly complete object relations. Kat, it is essential to understand what this is when reflecting back on our narc child’s upbringing.

      CEN would be EXTREMELY COMMON particularly for the Boomer area, being children of the Authoritarian batch. My mother had this, and I wished I had been made aware of this very important condition prior to her death. However, too late. I basically now have a good understanding of what she faced and her emotional aloofness. Plus she was an only child packed off to boarding school at an early age and spent her entire education at boarding school. This is not a condition to be ashamed of. People who have CEN are not abusers, well they could be if they were abused as well. However I am now speaking strictly about emotional neglect due to inability of the parent/s to fully express their own emotions and be emotionally available to their kids because they had inherited this parental style from their own parents.

      This will help you too examine your own childhood and see if your own parents were available to you and if you suffer this condition as well. The children of the Boomers will also have CEN to some degree or another. I fail to see, at this point in time, how they can’t unless their parents where highly adaptive and emotionally available. This would be the exception not the rule. Being emotionally available to our children was not taught, it was simply not in the good parenting manual. This condition would be rife and in epidemic proportions on this planet. If you visit Dr Webb’s site there is a wealth of information about it there.

      Kat hit the books. Obtain the docs books Character Disturbance and The Judas Syndrom these are simply a must. Unless you have done a good deal of self work then I would also recommend another book called Emotional Alchemy by Tara Bennet Goleman, this will help you identify your own blindspots and early childhood maladaptive schemas that may be triggering you and you can bet the CD knows just what they are because they will be using them against you. We need to get on top of these little glitches within ourselves ASAP. It is even more urgent for you as you have ongoing relations with your family and wish to continue. Therefore, while it is important to fully understand the CDMNSP it is equally as important for us to know ourselves and know our own blind spots and triggers so we can close any gaps.

      Because I had already done this core work and know myself all too well, this fared well for me because I could not be triggered by those attempting to manipulate me or in fact be manipulated by them. I would just give them no energy. This infuriates them and it’s why they revealed themselves so much sooner. I was unconsciously starving them of supply – of course they set out to destroy me due to my not playing their sick and twisted game. I’ve gone NC with all of them including my daughter. She is possibly the most evil one of the lot with almost a close second to my former friend of 40 years also now NC. Both of them have serious abandonment issues. Poetic justice they brought it on themselves by their continued abuse. It is important to understand we are dealing with fully fledged psychotics not neurotics.

      To get right inside the narcs head, listen to Sam Varknin’s talks. He’s a self confessed malignant narcissist and he knows his stuff, it comes straight from the horses mouth about how they think, their motivations everything. He covers all bases. I personally like the work of Meredith Miller of Inner Integration and Richard Grannon Spartan Lifecoach are also brilliant and many others. They are excellent in assisting with strategies to deal with CD. Let’s face if you choose to swim with White Pointers and make no mistake this is precisely what you are doing, then you will need not only a shark cage but a chain mail suit. It is imperative you protect yourself.



      I would highly recommend you take a step back and reduce contact until you feel 100% confident you are well protected, to go anywhere near them with under that you are exposing yourself to serious emotional peril. Do not underestimate this.

      BTOV is spot on about our group here. We still come here because we have developed a healthy core group of who I refer to as the season ticket holders. There is a wealth of knowledge on this site as well. We are veterans of narc abuse and have all educated ourselves in regard to this serious and heinous condition. It’s important when recovering from or dealing with narc abuse you have people who you can trust and will provide you the level of care and support you need. BTW CD hate God. The CD are the epicentre of their own Universe and expect us to unconditionally worship them as ours. Well they all take a flying f**%& and if I come across any of them again I will know exactly how to knock them off their perch and rest assured, I will do just that.

      1. Eudoxia

        Now that is a wealth of knowledge, along with a tremendous amount of soul searching and studying your own family background to sort out what has happened with your family dynamics.
        I always learn so much here on this site. I’m not up to task quite yet in studying my family dynamics of growing up, it’s a big undertaking. Right now, I am focusing on the upcoming divorce proceedings, of which SB is pro se, representing himself.
        Once I get through this, I really want to take a mind break!

        1. Lucy,
          It is to your benefit SB went pro-se. The Judge would otherwise give a pro-se extra leeway, but seeing SBis an attorney I don’t think that will happen. One thing the more SB is allowed to talk the deeper he will dig his hole.

          Yes, we have many deep embedded dynamics that work against us, its under the surface in our subconscious and that goes for all of us unless we do the work to find our inner selves. There are few that come out of their family of origin in a complete healthy state.

          When we can do this work besides the healing and knowledge we gain here we further take back our lives and can enjoy an inner freedom.

          1. Some of the Buddha teachings have one relinquish predisposed thought patterns and ideas we’ve grown up to believe, just because it was so . . . no explanation ever, just these random sayings we were taught to believe in. There are so many of these “beliefs” we were taught, but if we consciously think through some of them they are no longer pertinent to our life nor healthy. We have been so filled with ideals that we should believe in. Not our ideals, someone else’s.
            You’re right about SB digging himself into a hole. I think it would be extremely difficult to go pro se and do a good job at it.

          2. Lucy,

            SB is to emotionally unstable. I can see him going off on rants. Just be your sweet self and don’t take anything personally. In your mind just think of SB standing there naked and how ridiculous he looks.. Really, SB will ask such irrelevant questions and your attorney will object, which will piss SB off.

            What I wouldn’t give to watch. You are going to look at SB, so will everyone else. Watch the bailiff he will have a hard time keeping a straight face. You may have to bite your tongue from wanting to laugh. If you keep calm and in good spirits and just think “burn baby burn” it will help you stay calm.

            I know its hard to watch your life go up in smoke, if you can just let go of and detach your emotions of anger you or any ill feelings you will be able to get through easier. Beat the tar out of your pillows, stomp and scream later, we want to see SB stomp and scream. When SB’s true colors come out things will weigh favorably for you.

            Be patient, I know its hard, SB knows your buttons, you have his number, so now its time for you to press buttons.

            Yes, you are right, so many lies we are told in life and we believe it at true. Society is allowed to alter and form our thinking instead of us thinking for ourselves. Yes, our belief system is skewed and slanted the way others want us to believe instead of our own truths. This stops us from being our true selves. Ah’ this a whole new journey, my friend.

        2. Eudox,

          Thank you, an excellent post. I think the majority of us have experienced childhood emotional neglect. The sad part is, we pass these parenting traits onto the next generation and so on. This is where forgiveness comes in and is so important along with doing all the inner work.

          I know many of the things I learned as a child, I thought were the right thing to do, repeating what I had learned. The sad part is the damage and the generational continuance of neglect. It seems with each generation it morphs to even worse neglectful conditions and atrocities.

          I do agree with many of the things Vacknin says even though I have commented how much I dislike him. I have watched many of the Spartans you tubes and would encourage others to watch him too. It is important to take advantage of the wealth of information out there while its so available. I would also caution discernment in whose information you determine is valid. That’s what I like about this site and the sharing of information, we all critique and opine our thoughts on a given source.

          It is extremely important information and a warning, know yourself first and at the same time step back and know your enemy. This is so true and can make the difference between life or death. Our enemy knows us all to well, at least I should say the old us, when we grow in spirit and know who we are inside they cannot touch us. We are knew and the unknown to the CD is territory they don’t like to venture into.

          On the other hand, beware of the NSpath they are a whole knew ballgame. Know yourself, who you are inside, with confidence and maturity, refusing to be a victim, when those gut alarms go off, your unseen safety alarm, heed it it will protect you. To many times I made decisions/reactions based on my emotions, my heart and mind fooled me, while my gut was screaming.

          No Contact with the CDNSP is, absolutely, the best solution and response for these kind. I am not sorry about going NC with any of them.

          Words of Wisdom – Know Thyself

        3. Lucy,

          I’ve had the time to do it. I’ve been very fortunate, you could say blessed. Since leaving that cursed situation of betrayers and Judas’s life just unfolded like a flower. Beautiful people kept coming into my life. This was a gift. Plus I’m paid to look after a very badly damaged crazy and despite the challenges at times I have plenty of time to do research. I’ve just dedicated this past year to extensive amounts of this. I always have to find out why and to understand things. Truth is important to me but as you will know we will never get any from them so we have to figure it out ourselves. When somebody is acting in full integrity answering questions is no problem. To get a straight answer from a CD is an exercise in futility. They are too far gone and too deeply psychotic. Could you imagine being in their heads for 5 minutes, I reckon that would be enough to send us off the deep end. It would be one ugly, toxic, cesspit. BLAH.

          You may never feel inclined to go down the path of history Lucy. That’s your decision and you are the captain of your own soul! Once you are out the other side of your battle with SB you will have a new lease on life!

          When SB is in court he’s going to derail. Remember they can’t stand being held to account for their own behavior that’s when the real crazy shit starts, the mind games, the word salad. Wear a color that really pisses him off, it might keep him preoccupied with some delusion. In the movie Primal Fear, Richard Greer plays an attorney who is representing a guy charged with murder but claims he has multiple personalities so the claim was it was one of the entities that did the murder. Anyway Greer deliberately triggers him while he’s on the witness stand testifying in order to bring out the Roy (murdering entity). It worked and Roy goes batshit crazy and tries to kill the prosecutor. It’s a great movie. If SB goes Roy you couldn’t hope for better because at some stage something will trigger him. They go batshit crazy when in narc injury. Being questioned on his integrity is going to wound him and as he’ll have no impulse control………………………..

          1. It’s going to be hell of a show. Regardless of what I wear, he is repulsed by me, truly hates me. How dare I leave him! War of the Roses has nothing on us …. It’s truly awful.
            I think his theory is that I’m crazy, that the voluminous hotel charges ( from 1 to 7 some days) are ok cause he was with friends and I’m crazy to think he was prostitures , only a delusional wife would think so. Also delusional to think he did use and probably sell drugs in these rooms. He just keeps going back to me – that I’m nuts. His defense is no defense. He’s a complete total mess up. I really hope he had a fatal heart attack during trial. My problems would be gone.

          2. Lucy,

            I am in stiches, he will lose, to bad you can’t tape the trial, it will make your head spin, it will be crazy time. I passed my atty a note asking:
            “Whose on fourth” the meaning going back to Abott and Costello.
            It will get so nuts its laughable. Mine went on for 20 minutes and the Judge said he couldn’t listen anymore the Judge said “You’ve been ranting for twenty minutes and I have no clue to what your talking about.” Truly, it will be delusional fantasy on SB’s part, just sit back a watch the show.

            That is how yours will go too.

          3. Lucy/BTOV

            I can’t reply to either of your comments as there is no reply facility to enable that function, therefore, I have to reply to my own. Sounds CD doesn’t it LOL I’m not very good at word salad.

            BTOV – Lucy would probably puke at the thought of him naked. I’ll up the ante – when he starts getting to you Lucy, because they do have this uncanny way of doing this. Then imagine him naked, painted purple with green poker dots and a big bright red clown nose. You could also put his penis on his forehead, shoes for ears and a donkey tail. Just dress him in that when he’s ranting then try and sit there with a straight face. In reality because of the total and utter complete shit they talk about – this is what they really do look like -wicked grin-

      2. Eudoxia, Thank you for that. You hit the nail on the head with the CEN, I just ordered her book. I always assumed most of the damage was done by my ex who was a sociopathic drug addict. He didn’t display either trait until we had been married and had children, then his true colors came out. I was totally unaware, both then and the entire time I was with him – about 15-16 years in total. I tried my best to make a positive influence in my kids lives, but how can you when you are married to a CD. I finally left with a broken down car and a couple hundred dollars in my pocket, all I had in the world. I think this CEN is a missing piece for me and thank you so much for posting this.

      3. Oops, replied in the wrong spot. I just now saw your post, it gets confusing at times when the posts are not in chronological order. Eu – I just listened to an interview with Jonice Webb, that is exactly the issue. I was raised in a family with 10 children. Dad was an alcoholic who never helped out with the kids, I can never remember ever having a conversation with him. Mom was worn out taking care of 10 kids basically by herself. She was also a CEN. EXACTLY right, EU – I am so glad you posted that. I just ordered Dr. Jonice Webbs book, that will get me started. I feel those exact feelings, that I am just flawed and always the odd man out. It was true in my family too as I describe myself as basically a black sheep. I want to heal so badly, and I tried my very best with my children, but I didn’t even recognize the abuse my sociopathic drug addicted ex-husband put me through. The mind games and such, well I just took the blame he shoveled out. I have to forgive myself for not leaving sooner. I was just whittled down to nothing. My poor kids, I tried my best but nothing can counteract that flood of dysfunction. It kills me that I had a part in this, not realizing what was even going on. I want to heal so badly, but how do my kids heal. My son is distant, my daughter is a CD. All I can do is do what I can now, that will have to be enough, there are no other options.

        1. Kat it is a biggy and solves a lot of what previously appeared to be a mystery. It answers many questions that remained illusive akka WHY.
          This is why my daughter chose to make up stories of narc abuse and I mean “made up” lied. For many years she would poke and prod in an attempt to paint me with some type of background so she could relate it to me being a narc which I am not. She could not because she had nothing and she couldn’t find anything. Therefore she had to invent something in order so she could pin the blame on someone, when I didn’t even raise her. She would try to provoke me into anger she would try all sorts of shit in order to provoke a reaction from me. None of it ever worked. I would certainly have had CEN, however, I started doing my self work many years ago and I cleared out a good deal of this damage way back then. But there was never a name for it now there is. Further when I was a child I had adaptive ways of coping. I also had plenty of support from my grandmother. I also liked my own company and had no problem with ever being in my own company but it still left damage and wounds. My sister turned out exactly the opposite. She’s narc as well as the daughter. I can see how it all worked now and the dynamics at play.

          The tragic thing about it Kat is there is nothing we can do about our kids. If they are narcs they are narcs whether they are that way due to CEN or CD that is what they are. Most of the season ticket holders here know my background. So in brief – with my daughter I think she attended some type of ACON type workshop 10 years ago (Adult Children of Narcassists/ACON). CEN can manifest as similar symptoms to those experienced by victims of familial narc abuse. Only it’s the exact opposite of narc abuse. Instead of acting it’s failure to act. So once she did that workshop and because neither my mother or I are narcs then she had to make us into them. However, she had already become one and was for a long, long time. She has by word and deed clearly demonstrated this and when I honestly look back she started to manifest this rather self centered treacherous behavior at 16.

          It’s a big nut to crack but when we do it’s priceless. How many years of therapy did it take for me to work this out NONE. Because I knew myself only too well. I did self therapy through consciously applied effort. Unfortunately I can’t do anything about my CD daughter. Her condition is her responsibility and due to the severe amount of damage she has caused to myself and others in my family she can’t ever be trusted again. Both my son and I have gone NC with her and that is the way it will remain.

          This is what you must be very vigilant of Kat. CD are like vampires once a vampire always a vampire there is no cure. I can’t advise you what to do with your own family only you can. But work on yourself first, heal yourself so you can be the best person you can be. Also, do not feel guilty because you feel responsible for possibly contributing to their condition. Whether you did or didn’t is neither here nor there, you DID NOT DO SO INTENTIONALLY. Lead by example and be exemplary in word and deed. Know your blind spots and fortify your boundaries. I can highly recommend Emotional Alchemy – Tara Bennett Goldman. Also another seriously worthwhile book to read is Dan Goldman’s book Emotional Intelligence (they are husband and wife). If you can they should be available on any book exchange fairly cheaply. Running on Empty with these two others will help you EXPONENTIALLY. I can safely say you will not know yourself meaning the old you, the you you became by default due to environmental conditions. These books will help connect you to, and restore your authentic self and feed and nourish that authentic self because that is the REAL YOU. You will be able to heal and this is the No. 1 priority. Let that take place first, then deal with the rest later.

          You have a wealth of support here and we’ll be around for quite some time I dare say -smile- In the meantime – may the force be with you. NANOO NANOO!

          1. EU-thanks for those references. I know how dangerous sociopaths can be, I suspect my ex of instigating someones suicide last year. I will never be able to prove it but I will always have my suspicions. After the death he just said he was glad he did it. I wish there was a big hole he could have dropped into right then. I didn’t have contact with him but my daughter did and so I saw him at the memorial for this person. ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING.
            I read some of the comments about Jonice Webbs book and it sounded like I was writing a lot of them. I am so glad you said something about this, I can put an identity to it, I am always thinking that I don’t know who I am, like I am constantly having an identity crisis. I will be checking back in. I have 2 other books going right now, but I just have to make a priority in my spare time – I work a lot, but I know it will be worth it. I am very grateful you took the time to respond!

  15. Kat,
    I feel for you, wanting to see the grands but having all that BS going on to make you feel unwanted. The games and chaos these people create do not seem to stop. They keep trudging along with their dark plot to harm and we keep fighting it until we realize we cannot win. There is no win. We can’t win love or affection. It has to be a two-way street, give and take, not give and slap and beat.
    The way I handle rejection is by retreating. I’m not going to chase what doesn’t want me. F- it.
    It hurts when it’s family because we are raised to believe family is everything. But you know what? Many times it’s family that causes the most harm and hurt. If a family member is out to hurt, I say back away, go NC if possible, or as little contact as possible. WE HAVE TO STOP THE CYCLE OF ABUSE. We can control our own actions, and really, that’s all we do have control over.


      Hang Five sister!

      Family ceases to be everything when they abuse us. It’s pretty clear to me.

      Fitting song for this occasion guys hehe Twisted Sister (this was written about CD I’m certain) We’re Not Gonna Take It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  16. Lucy, I absolutely loved what you said and it’s exactly what I’ve experienced. I have been inexcusably hurt and disregarded by “family”. Family is a word that is rife with expectations and societal “norms”. Family are made up of people, people who should never be excused from disrespecting you.

    Kat, not to make light of your religious convictions but if your daughter is so dismissive in your Christian beliefs may you could explain to her you’ve had a “come to Jesus” moment and you’ve decided to set some boundaries. Sit back with a bowl of popcorn and watch the fur fly!

    1. Joey, Lucy, Sydney, Eudox, AndyD and all,

      Great comments to Kat. It’s a fact the CD will group together to bring us down, our own family members turn against us. I agree, Lucy said it all, straight forward and precisely. I needed to hear all this as I am dealing with the same thing. It’s shear sickness.

      The CDN hate it when we set sound, proper, boundaries. When we do this the CDN know they can’t control us anymore and then the smear and hate campaign begins. They are vile creatures and capable of causing you immense distress if you interact with them. Like Lucy said, NC.

      Kat keep strong in your faith, prayer and Christ are what have sustained me. When we lose something the Lord always replaces it. When a door closes always check the windows, He always leaves an opening.

      I welcome you to our small family we have created here on this blog. Many of us have posted for years and many follow this blog and intermittently post. We have a great group here and we welcome newcomers with open arms. Our little family encompasses posters from all over the world.

      God bless you Kat and I hope you find peace and comfort here.
      Take care and Hugs

    2. SYdNey et all

      If you want to see a classic movie about a toxic family and why it’s a really good idea to take a long hike and not look back watch August Osage County with Meryl Streep and Julia Roberts. It truly shows how empaths get targeted for total inihilation by toxic CD – why for being happy and loving. It’s a good one!

  17. Kat,

    What Dr. Simon stated above: You empower yourself when you know yourself and the issues that make you vulnerable. And you empower yourself further when you know the tactics manipulators use to exploit your vulnerabilities. But perhaps the greatest empowerment results from your determination to define the terms for engagement with you. Aggressively-predisposed personalities will always fight for what they want. But when they know how firm you;ll be with limits and boundaries, it changes the game.

    Sydney said: Sit back with a bowl of popcorn and watch the fur fly. For me it was sit back and watch the bonfire. The fire is still smoldering and I will have to stir up the ashes soon and I know underneath there are some glowing embers.

    It’s been a long journey of obtaining knowledge and more importantly, TRUTH.
    The truth sets us free and also to know ourselves, our truths, growing stronger each day. The truth is in us and we have the ability to endure and go forward. Set strong, secure boundaries and go in the opposite direction the CD travel. It can be difficult and lonely at times but well worth it to be Free. Fight the good fight, let your inner light shine and never again let someone define you, if they try to, leave.
    I cut them out of my life no matter who they are. Their are many individuals out there who will build you up and support you instead of tearing you down.

  18. Thanks all for the support. It means A LOT because most people wouldn’t understand if they have not dealt with sociopaths and narcissists. They might think I was exaggerating or misinterpreting things. My daughter knows my biggest issue is rejection and she plays on that. Its always hard to fathom why someone would build their life around abusing and manipulating others. Its distressing that my granddaughter is now exhibiting those same behaviors. I really do not understand what they get out of it but just some kind of power trip. Most of us are looking for love – to love and to be loved. Its as if they don’t have the basic needs of most human beings. I know at the core they are miserable, and that triggers empathy, but that’s just falling into their trap because they don’t want your love, they want something else. I know my ex’s favorite manipulation tool was getting me and others to feel sympathetic towards him. They are like predators that are always looking for a way to pounce on their victims. But like a predator, it is the blood of the victim that keeps them alive. I have been working on setting boundaries but this is the hardest one, working into less and less contact and in being less involved in their lives. Its very sad though, all the way around.

    1. Exactly Kat, they don’t want your love because true love takes place between equals. In no way do they want to be equal. Being on top is what they think will make them happy. It doesn’t but like a broken record the play the same tune over and over. dont waste your caring or sympathy on them. DR. SImon talks of a young man who finally came for help when his world fell apart as I recall. IN a way I think their only hope lies in failure . When their methods no longer work there is a chance they can be helped, but I think very few of them will get help even if everything falls apart for them. Many times they just look for new people they can use.

      1. Thanks Kacey, if I reduce my contact with her, it seems like she would need to know why or she will just think I am busy instead of relating it to her behavior. She can be so subtle in her manipulation that its hard to put a finger on it, and of course she would deny what she is doing. I think I need to wait for an opportunity to tell her that it not OK with me and to make an issue of it. Not sure how to go about this.

        1. Kat, does it matter what she thinks? Unless you think telling her will change her behavior why try. She is likely to think whatever she wants to think regardless of what you do or don’t do. Changing the thinking and understanding of CD people is extremely difficult.

          Sometimes we need to do a complete revision of our own thinking. As an analogy, we were trying to deal with a problem of dogs and foxes getting our chickens. Someone on a chicken site recommended electric chicken netting. It didn’t seem tall enough to keep chickens in. They told me the point was not to keep the chickens in but to keep the predators out. So once I changed my perspective I saw how the fence would work. It does keep predators out and the chickens choose to stay in and safe.

          So my point is that we need to stop thinking about changing CD people and think about protecting ourselves from their manipulations. If they never get it, never understand, never change their behavior, it doesn’t matter because we have protected ourselves. They will use every tactic in the book to not admit what they are doing and not change. You cannot win on their game board, they make up the rules as they go along :). Get off their game board, lots of other people in the world to bless with your time and mental energy.

          I am writing this as much for myself as you because I keep thinking I can change them or at least let them know that I know what they are doing. And every time I try, it fails. If others have had success in confronting and getting CD’s to understand what they are doing wrong perhaps they can tell us how they did it. As carefully as I have tried to do it, they don’t hear, make excuses, feign ignorance, ignore….

          1. Kacey, thanks for that perspective, I didn’t even consider that I would be trying to change her thinking but I see that that is what I would be trying to do by confronting her. This reminds me of something I learned in my Boundaries class, that confrontation does not have an effect with people with boundary problems, but that consequences do. You are right, I have tried that route over and over and keep getting the same results. Not that I think consequences will change her thinking, I think only God can at this point, which is the only reason I can still hold out hope. I can tell you know what you are talking about when you are say they use every tactic in the book they can to not admit what they are doing. Confrontation only has resulted in anger and denial. I can’t believe I didn’t see this – thanks for opening my eyes. I have some problems with boundaries and I need to quit trying to “fix” people and look at my own boundary issues. Thanks for the insight.

          2. Kacey, Kat, Lucy,

            This is a lesson that is hard to learn. Kacey an excellent post. I never confronted or told any of the CDn”s in my life who an what they are and the problems. Confrontation or trying and I repeating thinking we may just say the right thing that will open their eye’s, it just doesn’t happen that way.

            I can’t tell you the hard knocks and wallowing in the gutter it might take, the majority of the time it will never happen. If your waiting for this to happen you will wake up and old person one day and you will have wasted your precious time and wished you had woke up sooner.

            Fill your life with good caring people and work on yourself. Do things you like, fill your life with laughter and look for things that make you happy. I would keep working on boundaries, I do all the time. When I meet someone new the first thing I draw are my boundaries, if they are crossed I will let one or two go and thats it.

            The more decent people that come into you life that treat you decently, you won’t want to waste your time with one like you are describing. Keep reading and posting, eventually, you will get it.

            Ever so often I think , if I just said this, and then I correct myself, because in essence I am believing a lie. I need to stay in truth and the truth is no matter what I say or do I can’t change anyone but myself.


          3. “If others have had success in confronting and getting CD’s to understand what they are doing wrong perhaps they can tell us how they did it” NEGATIVE.
            If you do succeed in getting them to understand what they are doing they will just destroy YOU.
            You are appealing to emotions they do not have in some vein hope you will appeal to their conscience – sorry to say but they don’t have one. I really advise everybody who hasn’t already done so to get the docs book Character Disturbance. Joey also posted a link to The Sociopath Next Door – Martha Stout. It’s an audio you can listen to it. Further, there is something extremely necessary and vital for you to understand and it is this sorry for caps – to a CD – YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT – YOU DO NOT MATTER BECAUSE YOU DON’T EXIST.

            For the CD all we will ever be is a source of supply. It does not matter if they are our husband, wife, daughter, son, father, mother, friend – ZIP their only loyalty is to themselves and their addiction. Because they are dead and empty black holes they need to fill this emptiness. So they do, with our life force. How, by continual provocation, they poke, prod and continue to do so until they get the emotional response to their provocation that gives them that BIG HIT. This is how they fill that emptiness and is the source of their addiction = SUPPLY. They need that from us, they have many motivations for doing so and these motivations are all in order to gain supply from us. Not only does it give them a big hit via supply it empowers them and gives them the upper hand ALWAYS. They must ALWAYS remain on top. They must ALWAYS WIN.

            Okay I’ll stop right here I’m bringing in the big guns! Here is an excerpt from HD Tudor – a self confessed Malignant/Classic Narcissist.

            In his own words – Mr Tudor

            “Who me officer? I did nothing. She just exploded. I get this all the time, she has an anger management problem. John here will confirm she just went mental and started hitting me.” (Cue obliging Lieutenant).

            “I don’t know what gets into her dad, she just erupts. You saw what she was like at mum’s birthday party. That is what I have to live with.”

            “I feel sorry for you Mrs Johnson, having a daughter with a temper like that.”

            We will provoke you. We will draw the delicious fuel that you will provide to us and then we will use your eruption against you as evidence of your unhinged mind, nasty temperament and unbalanced mental state.

            Provocation is a mainstay of our behaviour. It comes in many forms, it is used in many different ways and on a range of occasions but its effects are always the same.

            The provision of a massive dose of negative fuel from a primary source;
            The exertion of control over you;
            The reinforcement of our image of superiority, lack of accountability and omnipotence;
            The creation of an emotional state in you which hampers your ability to think clearly and logically;
            The creation of a situation where you can later be made to feel guilty for erupting in the way you have at us;
            The manufacturing of a scenario which is used to reinforce our façade – we were calm and bewildered by this outburst.
            The manufacturing of a scenario which is used to smear you to third parties.
            Provocation is a very useful tool to us. It is used extensively and repeatedly. Know why it is being used. Do not try to outlast it and exert your capability for patience, tolerance and understanding. You are just goading us to try harder. Remove yourself before your threshold is reached to avoid giving us points 1-7 above.
            Provocation will always be used against you.
            Anyway, who do you think you are looking at?
            End of Transmission from Mr Tudor

            Notice the projection right at the end. They project their CD traits onto us. Ok that is just a glimpse into the world of the CDMN. That was Malignant Narc Master Class. This is why among many other reasons you will NEVER get anywhere with them – EVER – NEVER. To get them to confess to their sins is paramount to trying to walk backwards to the moon.

            Character Disturbance and Judas Syndrom and any number of the docs other books should be on every shelf of every empath/HSP so they are always there for reference. Do not let CD see them. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES tell them you know about them as Mr Tudor has succinctly explained. Also please watch this 7 minute UTube by Smakintosh – very powerful. Also one more thing I can highly recommend. In order for you to come to terms with what you are dealing with get inside their heads. Thanks to Sam Varknin and HD Tudor – Classic Malignant Narcs they are allowing us to look they both have their own UTube vids. Please Google and listen to all of them. To say I have listened to well in excess of hundreds of hours of talks would be a major understatement. It helps to get our head around them.

            Here are 2 from Smakintosh – spoken from the heart of a man who has grown up in a family of narcs. Control and exploitation is all you can ever expect from them – nothing more. Familial narc abuse is not uncommon unfortunately.

          4. Here’s a good one on chicken protection from the mind of a Spath.
            My friends ex CDH has chickens and a few had been killed by quolls. So he bought pigs. When asked why he bought pigs he said he bought the pigs to kill the quolls that are killing the chickens. Now I about fell off my chair laughing at that one. For anybody who doesn’t know what a quoll is have a quick peak:


            What they do is rip the heads of chickens and drink their blood – cute huh. I heard a chicken getting killed what I could only at the time assume was a quoll (they have a seriously repulsive and hideous screech) they are quite blood curdling. They might look quite cute but they are far from it.

  19. Q: How do you know if there’s an elephant under your bed?

    Your head hits the ceiling !!!!!!!!!

    Q: How do you keep an elephant from charging?

    Take away her credit card!

    Something OFF topic but

    Keep the faith


    1. Joey,

      I take a break from whatever I am doing and check the site. Many times we need the diversion. You made me laugh and a big smile across my face. It’s so thoughtful of you to interject and make one laugh. Thank you!

      Big Hugs to you Kindred Spirit

        1. Kat

          I have posted a link to Dr Craig Malkins Youtube Site. Please see If this gives you some help. He does things diffrent to Dr Simon.I have traits of what Dr Malkin calls Echoism. Please see his site. He is very, very, very good.

  20. Joey,
    Saturday at the coffee house sounds like a pleasant morning. We have a nice one here in town. It’s nice to run into familiar faces, even if we don’t talk, but to give a smile and acknowledgement. And it’s always good to get out into society, not to be stuck in the hum drum of the same ole same ole. Coffee houses were designed perfectly for the way you are using it, to get out, see people, be seen, have a good cup of coffee, good for the soul.

  21. Andy D

    The character assassination topic has a big part in my life. The SB is intent on destroying my reputation. But you know what? I don’t really care. I know who I am. I like who I am. It is annoying, I have to admit, to be characterized as a person he tries to get others to believe I am, but many of them do know me and at least have some personal experience with me. It just shows how desperate a CDN can become when their world is crashing and the way they feel they can save themselves is by fabricating scenarios about others. It’s very disturbing and sick and twisted. And most of all, it does not work. They will still suffer their own pain, regardless of what lies are told about me. I’m so glad I don’t have his brain. It seems tormented. And I don’t spend time trying to disprove his lies. That would make me appear crazy. You know what, this whole topic kind of makes me feel crazy. Ughhhhh I’ll have to move on to something positive. haha

    1. Andy D this is where be become most unlike our enemy. While they are busy in their dedicated mission to take us out by defamation and slander then let em. Who cares, all they are actually, and in reality doing, is taking themselves out just like you said. It matters not one wit what is in their twisted version of reality it is so distorted at the best of times these guys might as well be upside down. You just can’t mistake malice because when they are talking about us their entire physiology changes, their eyes everything. Alert and aware people can detect this eerie presence. Come a day they will be isolated from healthy society. We will come to our 100th Monkey scenario at some point in the hopefully not to distant future.

      1. Right on about smear campaign. Ignore it. Strike back only when effective.

        It is not worth our time to explain our story to any of the false-story believer. No point indulging in the game using same tools against an adversary who has had life-long training using those tools.
        Only exception will be a curious half-convert, who approaches you with wide-eyed expression. Even then instead of telling our side of sob-story, it is probably better to ask what he/she has been told. While listening, instead of getting angry, laugh if you can, literal ROFL even better. That may work better than telling your own story.

        I know my wife had been telling stories. After repeating them sufficient number of times to her friends circle, she got confident and included them in her petition “neighbours saw this assault & likes”. I know that is a lie as one cannot be a witness to non-existent assault. And, of course she will not call those neighbours as witness later on, and I cannot force them to testify in a civil suit.
        But, I can send those very neighbours a copy of those statements couched as friendly legal notice, for your information please type. 🙂
        I think my wife will either cook up more lies to cover up old lies, or she will change the house. Either one works fine with me.

        1. Andy
          That wife is a piece of work. I’d bet her “friends” by now are tiring of her stories and will most probably see the light. Is she lying trying to make a case for custody? When the courts find out these lies I’d imagine not only would she not be granted custody but could even be restricted with supervised visitation.
          SB lies regarding me are all focused on court endeavors.
          Judges are no dummy. They’ve seen lots of liars and I’m sure are well able to point to the liar. My friend told me don’t worry about the number of lies that will be told of me on court because once the judge figures out who the liar is he will do well at the beginning of the case and then carry through.
          How are you planning on informing the neighbors of your knowledge of this false information?

          1. Lucy,

            She was lying to gain a short-term upper hand for child-custody, at the large expense of long-term loss. A stanadard behaviour of character disturbed person.

            I am thinking of sending a formal notice to neighbours on the line “you should know the misuse of your name by my wife in a legal proceeding against me”. It will be nothing more than a written format in formal language along with heavily redacted duplicate copy rather than just calling up and telling them informally. I am yet to check with my lawyer on it.
            The reason I want to keep it formal is that most people tend to believe first story they are told unless second story is hammered in…
            – if neighbours are flying monkey, it adds 1 ton weight to their leg.
            – if neighbours are regular people, they get to know real face of liar.
            – if my wife is all about maintaining image, she will know when not to cross the line. She should have stuck to vague (and obviously false) allegations which she cannot prove, but I also cannot disprove.
            – I cannot force neighbours to court to prove my point in a civil proceeding. And, I seriously doubt they will stick their neck out for a “friendly” liar.
            – Most likely I won’t hear back, and I won’t know the exact effect. But, it is just like firing an unguided rocket toward enemy camp… I won’t know what exactly got hit, but I know very likely something got hit.

    1. I am still evaluating. There is some chances that I may not send anything… why antagonize her unless necessary.
      But, using exact name of neighbours to add a weight to a lie in court is something that must be countered somehow, otherwise it gives a semblance of truth to false statement even if no one is going to show up later.

      1. In your court are you each required to produce a witness list?
        These neighbors aren’t really witnesses though because the incident she lies about didn’t happen. So no witness of event but witness of her lying. I guess what she says to neighbor would be hearsay. See how twisted this gets when dealing with lies? We actually have to defend the lie. It’s maddening. This could play out though to harm her greatly, showing her vindictiveness and contentious behavior. It’s a fraud on the court to lie to gain favor in court. She could be held in contempt, if caught lying. In my state in an subpoena a witness if they are from the same state as the cause of action. But subpoenaing can backfire sometimes especially if you don’t know how they will testify.
        SB mentioned in his deposition a friend of his who frequented hotels with him, and his employer. Both of these people I do not believe would come in and lie. The one friend is an attorney who years ago lost his license for a time for dealings with a prostitute who had been beaten by a doctor, who was charged with assault. The attorney friend tried to work out a payout for the prostitute for not testifying about the beating – was recorded. So long story – but I doubt he’d go lie I’m court for SB.
        Anyway I’ve done my homework on this possible witness friend, but it happened so long ago that I don’t think it can be used to destroy his credibility. He wasn’t actually convicted. It was dismissed.
        So how do we disprove an act that didn’t happen?
        Do I have to prove I’m not nuts because he says I am?
        We actually have to defend lies!
        They are so desperate to win, and they can’t on their own volition that they have to make things up. And here we have to waste energy to disprove lies.
        My case is set for trial this month. The fight of my life
        I wish you the best outcome possible, for you and your child. The emotional and financial toll caused by these CDs is great but I do see us both prevailing in the end, because we have integrity and truth and it should shine through all the BS.

        1. Lucy,

          Yes. List of witnesses is produced upfront as wife’s evidence. But, I seriously doubt that the neighbours even know about the case. People like my wife who cannot stand truth, will tell different stories to different people.

          Regarding… “So how do we disprove an act that didn’t happen? Do I have to prove I’m not nuts because he says I am? We actually have to defend lies!”
          Innocent till proven guilty is the principle in all sensible countries. There is no need to disprove anything. Laugh at such allegations, because they will implode on their own with time. Acting serene will work even better in court! However, if one wants to work hard for better payoff, extract as much as specific details as possible (Five Ws) during discovery and interrogatories, and maybe later you have sufficient counter-proof to actually disprove a false allegation and gain an upper hand in court.

  22. I’ve posted about this before and I’ve received great advice but situations change and so do the challenges of interacting with the fallout of “our” covert aggressor.

    My H has a son who is married to a covert aggressor. She is very, very good at what she does. We were practically ignored at their wedding but not quite enough for anyone to notice. We are not needy or intrusive people and it was bad enough for my H to feel totally disregarded that day. When asked, his son said “I didn’t know anything about the plans” and my H said “well SOMEONE had to know”. That pretty much explains the place where we fall in the family lineup….

    With the CDs in my life I’ve gone NC and limited contact with the SDIL and my H’s son.
    I had two parents pass away and even being my H’s wife for many many years I did not get so much as a message of condolence let alone a card from these two people. I do not have one ounce of emotional investment for them so I could walk away in a heartbeat.

    Fast forward seven years since their nuptials. There have been other moments of exclusion and my H finally opened his eyes very widely to the fact that his DIL is a covert manipulator. We strongly suspect she has manipulated an estrangement with his son but will look very innocent, most likely suggesting to others she has tried her best to include us in their lives.

    My husband is now getting the silent treatment from his son for heaven knows what reason. In my opinion being on the receiving end of the silent treatment is emotional abuse. His son by nature has seemed angry about everything but never to this degree towards his father. My H is struggling with it and hasn’t made any attempt to contact his son. The last my H heard from him was an email wishing him a Happy Father’s Day received a day late. No phone call even though we live in the same city. They had an annual tradition of meeting for breakfast and my H responded to his son’s email saying he understood he must be busy but a phone call would have been appreciated and he had missed not meeting for “their” breakfast. Not one word from his son since the “Hi Dad, Happy Father’s Day. Hope you had a good day.” This was sent at 10 pm that night knowing full well his father rarely checks his email.

    His son and DIL have since sold their home, bought another and moved, we’ve had to learn this from a nephew. I am convinced that when my husband does breakdown and contact his son his son will make it out to be all of my H’s fault. If they get past this it will be me left holding the proverbial anger bag and that’s where problems come in to play in our marriage. I will get to carry the anger and he will get off free. I see the hurt he has gone through and I get hurt seeing him hurt but I’m the one that has to find a way out of it on my own.

    It’s like waiting for the other shoe to fall. I want the band-aid ripped off because I’m impatient to have this situation resolved. My H would never go NC and I’m in no way going to suggest it, but I have been close to suggesting my H call his son and meet for coffee. From then on make a date once a month just the two of them. This way there is contact with his son and the SDIL is out of the picture. This father & son relationship is not based on truth, we can’t be honest with him about his wife because he doesn’t see it. My reasoning is a superficial relationship would be better than nothing, for my H anyway. Any advice?

    1. SYdNeY,

      I think, your step daughter-in-law most likely getting what she wants, if your husband just thinks too many maybes, ifs and buts, niceties, partial info, clouded situation, etc.

      I will agree with you. Direct dealing. Call him and meet up for a coffee. Assuming your husband has bit more free time, offer that he will drive up to make it more convenient for his son. If he doesn’t respond to calls, charge up to son’s home a fine day.
      Stick to chitchat. It appears your husband is also prone to making some comments. In response to that email, he just could have said “Thank you”.

      And if his son has some issue and plays the same manipulative game, let him grow balls to say “Dad. Get lost.” That should give your husband guilt-free one year of NC… maybe more years.

      1. AndyD, yes he could have simply said thank-you. He said “thank-you for your email and yes I had a great father’s day, I heard from everyone and Sydney took me out for a nice dinner. I would have liked to have received a phone call from you rather than an email I read a day late, I was disappointed when I didn’t get the call to meet for our annual breakfast” He signed it dad, with our phone number.

        This from the easiest man you’d ever want to meet, a father who asks for nothing and is always there with a helping hand. He added more than a thank-you so it could be read in the context it was written . This is exactly what one gets for being honest……stone cold silence. So why would anyone want to put in an effort to be honest if this is what we get in return? The son sent that email late on purpose, why I wonder? Are we suppose to figure it out through this silent treatment as if his father is a mind reader?

  23. SYdNEY,

    That’s really rough. Is there something preventing your husband from dealing with this head on? It seems reasonable he should be able to call his son and go out for coffee, once a month.

    Have you spoken to son about his wife? It’s understandable if you have. Most people would feel compelled to– but–the risk there is alienating the son, as he will feel stuck in the middle. If the she-beast he married catches wind of it, you can be assured she will do everything in her power to sideline you.

    Just a theory here, based on my own family experience. Women will often angle a couple towards their own family. If a complaint is registered by son’s family, son’s wife should and usually will make more of an effort — but it’s not assured. A CD will not give a damn about your husband’s feelings and just please themselves.

    Try to make up for this lack in your husband’s life, if he can’t establish contact with his son. There may be nothing either one of you can do but accept the situation and take control by avoiding all contact. Very limited and inhibited contact might just keep reopening wounds for your husband.

    One of my siblings used me for years as a placeholder at family events, because it satisfied her vision of a ‘happy family.’ Otherwise she was stunningly callous. In the last few years I have worked hard towards not caring.

    By the time she apologized for her behaviour, just recently, I was pleased she was evolving as a person, but I can’t honestly say it made much difference to me as I had to emotionally distance myself from her and I would have to rewire my hard-wiring now for it to have am effect.

    I hope your husband can come to acceptance of a situation where his son has to find his own way out of his own problems with his wife. Only then will he be able to reconnect in a meaningful way with his father. The unfairness is painful for you to experience but you will have to probably let go of focussing on it for your own sake.

    1. Thanks for responding LisaO,

      You asked, if there is a reason why my husband doesn’t confront this head on. Years ago we confronted something head on about the behavior of his first wife (she was a manipulator too but a novice compared to his present wife). He didn’t talk to us for two years. The confrontation had to do with how his wife treated me as their babysitter. I confronted the ex-wife first in a non confrontational manner and then H talked to the son about it, it royally blew from there. My H does not want to relive this.

      There is no way he nor I will talk to H’s son about his wife. She is truly a pro at alienation and covert aggression. Passive aggression too. Apparently she is HELL to work with.

      Because of the exclusion and subsequent exclusions at the beginning of their relationship we feel devalued by H’s son and played if she makes a superficial attempt at getting together, it’s an act to show others how nice she is and it turns my stomach. She made it very clear her family was numero uno and H’s son looked on like a panting puppy when she told us the reasons why all Christmas’s would be spent with her father and mother’s sides. I think he was getting laid regularly and it drained his brain. It just went from there. This is just a sample. We are trying to protect ourselves, I cannot without extreme hypocrisy have her in my life anymore and I don’t have any bond with H’s son after his behavior towards his father. We enjoyed a very good relationship with him before this present wife came on scene. We are the easiest people to get along with and we ask for nothing, then again that’s what we get…..nothing. I could careless if I ever saw them again. I am struggling with how best to present a solution to my H.
      I think my H could break the silence and have coffee with his son, I think it might be awkward or they may not say anything about this at all and just carry on. What angers me is how I watch this play out and I’m left with even more resentment towards the self-centered son. The only time we have stress in our relationship is when this type of thing arises and I’m on pins and needles waiting for my H to get back on track, but he all too readily accepts excuses from him. His wife might be a supreme manipulative bitch but he has the power to prioritize his own father without her permission. He is 50 years old and sure as hell has the backbone to tell other people where to go.

  24. Sydney,

    Ugghhh…so ugly. Can your husband go no-contact? Does he have any other kids? This all hits close to home with me. I developed a very thick skin, as a consequence. I no longer care that much. As far as I am concerned, it isn’t my loss anymore. It’s my sibling’s. I have gone ‘no contact’ emotionally, because I don’t want ongoing family tension or drama. I am emotionally detached.

    Your husband may have to do this if he feels he must maintain contact for some reason.

    1. Going NC is absolutely out of the question. Yes there are three kids and the other two both agree the oldest has an anger issue. I have strict boundaries, but I’m sensitive to his position in this situation and I’d go NC if it were possible.

      My H has seen how his son has hurt me but I don’t think he thought it would ever happen to him. I don’t know of too many people who take confrontation maturely and without their emotional dukes up, in my experience I’ve never had an apology or a reconciliation happen in three confrontations I’ve initiated. All three were done by letter to give them an opportunity to really think about what they had done. In each situation the relationship was severed and went NC . My H is not willing to risk this. If it has to be a superficial relationship then so be it I guess.

  25. LisaO, an update.

    I just won at a game of Mahjong – yay – and while I was playing I thought it was a good time to offer an opinion to H. I asked him if he had given any more thought about his situation with his son and he said “yes, I’m going to phone him one of these days”.

    In a nutshell I explained to him I was stressed with how this was going on so long without a resolution and he said he was surprised by that. I explained that it stresses me out because I’m just waiting for more hurt again. I told him on Father’s Day he got his well wishes from everyone but I’m on tender hooks until all of them have checked in for the day and who doesn’t step up to the plate but this one son. I asked “what kind of wife would I be if I didn’t feel you’re hurt?” He nodded.

    My H said he’s going to call his son, act as if nothing has happened and ask in an upbeat voice if Saturday is a good morning to meet for breakfast. As my H said, “I’m going to play him.”

    1. yep, so far so good. I’ve had the habit of over thinking things and internalizing too much. My H is not going to try and dig anything out of his son he’s just going to play it like I said, as if nothing has happened.

  26. Sydney,

    I’ve been reading your posts and replies by LisaO and Andy D to further add on what both have said I’d like to say that the only aspect of control we have is over ourselves. If you allow yourself to take on another’s pain or problems which is totally out of your control then you are in effect abusing yourself. It first appeared your H was ambivalent to his son’s lack of correspondence and silent treatments. It is also possible that your H is probably more of a reserved type meaning he’s likely to silently consider his options rather than discuss all of them with you. I can’t really say here Syndey only you can. It’s obvious you are very empathic so you will be taking on your H’s stuff.

    This is where it is important to draw your line in the sand about what you are willing to take on or not. It is very difficult for people with high empathy levels to just let sleeping dogs lie. But that is what we must do. Other people’s stuff does not belong to us, because it is theirs and is a part of their life path or journey and it is their responsibility to find resolution one way or another. I do understand your desire to help your husband and it is something that is just hard wired into us and it’s a tough nut to crack. We are always inclined to FIX things. Sooner or later though we have to step out of this role. In order to be the best people we can be it is wise to accept that your H must resolve his own relationship with his son. All you can do is step back and allow him to make his own decisions in this regard. It is necessary to detach yourself and abdicate your responsibility here. It would be best to try to accept this and let it go. Allow your H to deal with his own son. What ever ramifications come back down the track and they may or they may not; then that is the time when it’s your turn when they directly impact you. You can only deal with the stuff that affects you. You can’t control anything outside of you and to try to do so will only invite pain and suffering into your life that doesn’t belong there.

    It’s a very fine balancing act and it requires almost the resolve and patience of a Saint.
    It is like I am telling you to step back when you see someone is about to drive off a cliff. Well yes Sydney that is what I am saying. Why – because it took me a very long time to figure this out. I always thought by stepping in I would be preventing catastrophe. No sometimes we just have to step back and allow it to just be whatever it is meant to be. Then once it actually reveals what it is then we can deal with it, when it actually impacts us which is when we actually do have control.

    You can’t do your H’s emotional processing work for him, only he can. What you do have the power to do is work out just how much you are willing to take on and what you are not willing to take on. This is where the line should be drawn because whatever you choose to take on is what you will then be responsible for. For example if you end up angry then you will need to own it, you won’t be able to blame your H or his son for how you feel. This is a boundary that empaths are not very good at maintaining. When we choose to take on something that is not ours because we have to fix it that’s when we invite trouble into our lives when we should not have given it a pass to begin with. It doesn’t end well because we end up being resentful or whatever when we chose to take on something that doesn’t belong to us.

    Sydney be kind to yourself, practice self love and appreciation. Be the loving kind soul you are without giving yourself additional hurdles and burdons. It will hold you in good steed and will exponentially reduce stress levels in your own life.

    1. Eudox
      I have t been able to follow this thread close enough, but your words tell me that you have lives what you speak, and we certainly learn life lessons the hard way don’t we? We can support our loved ones but we certainly cannot fix things, as you say. And it’s very difficult to watch one suffer.
      I’ve learned so much for you all!

    2. I bookmarked this Eudoxia, and I’ve reread it a couple of times. It is so relevant to who I am and how I react to things.

      To update the situation where this began my H had breakfast with the eldest son who barely acknowledged father’s day. It was my H who made the first move and he went into this breakfast without any agenda. It was the son who opened up about having marital problems, blah, blah… and when my H related this all to me, I said “the next time he does the silent treatment lets not take on the speculation of what “we” did wrong. The fact that he couldn’t take one minute out of his day to wish you a nice day back in June speaks volumes.” My H agreed.

      I have taken your advice and I carry no anger towards the son. I think he is a selfish man who will never change. I feel freer after I reread your post and I will continue to carry this forward. Thanks again.

  27. Good advice Eudoxia and I needed to hear it. I do tend to think I need to fix things and yes my husband is somewhat reserved and thinks before he speaks.

    I agree I need to let things fall where they may with regards to his relationship with his son and I’m going to heed your advice on this. Someone told me I need permission not to care and for the most part I do fairly well with this type of thing but where I tend to fail is going into the future. I judge my H’s son by his self-centered behavior and I don’t see that changing.

    I will most definitely confront anyone in the future who hurts me and I will step back and allow my H to process his own hurt if it happens to him. I understand what you’re saying and truthfully since getting rid of the CDs in my life I have led a happier life. If I could go NC with his son I’d be in the clear. But again I understand he’s H’s problem not mine. Thanks I really appreciate all of your advice. I knew I could turn to all of you.

    1. Sydney/Lucy – it’s something we all need to wrap our heads around and it is very difficult at times but one we get it and the penny drops so to speak we fully understand we have been creating our own horror stories. This is totally another story to the ones the CD create and embroil us in. This is the fine line. It was a particularly hard lesson to learn and I did learn it the hard way.

      What is particularly more insidious is that CD are known for not providing closure. This is particularly pertinent to romantic relationships. They don’t allow it because it’s still a means for them to control us. If they can string us along for a while it keeps us on tender hooks and dancing on hot tin roofs (it’s part of their game play). They enjoy the pain they inflict because they are sadists operating somewhere on the sadistic spectrum. If they can do this by proxy they surely will and we would all be fools to believe otherwise.

      All CD, in order to maintain control will always throw a spanner in the works for any family. They will compartmentalize and triangulate. They will extend that abuse to other family members often by proxy. They hate happy endings because they despise happiness. They are so adept at their art of deception, evil and dark magic they often will have us abusing ourselves – yes really! By us continually trying to work out WTF they are doing and continually trying to assist loved ones dealing with their respective CD. This is where we have to up the ante on the NO CONTACT. We have to go NC spiritually and emotionally.

      We need to disentangle our relationships with other people who chose to be involved with the CD and their flying monkeys in this case your SIL. If you have to maintain limited contact as he is your husband’s son you can still maintain spiritual NC. Try not to hold onto emotions caused by the run off or the trickle down abuse. Picture waves rolling onto the sand – allow them to come and allow them to go! You can’t hold onto waves, this is exactly what our emotions are akin to – waves and it’s where empaths can come unstuck they are not very good at fortification of detachment boundaries. Let the waves roll in and watch them roll out – that is how nature works to do anything else is resistance. Don’t try and form an attachment to them. Try to visualize this the next time you are emotionally triggered by an issue that comes up involving your SIL’s CD and see how you go. It’s not yours Sydney, it’s a flash in the pan – let it roll out again.

      It reminds me of a certain Sinead O’Connor song one I remember it and find it I’ll post it.

      May the force be with you!

    1. Those words of the song sure do relate to what I’ve been dealing with. Take back the rage you have me. The anger. It doesn’t belong to me. It does not bk g to me! I’m a naturally happy, good nature person, and that SB have me rage. I’d love to bag it all up and smear it in his face
      I will get there again. It will dissipate and I’ll be free.

      1. Lucy,

        To be honest I don’t think it actually does dissipate it accrues. Their is certain anger that belongs to us but there is a residual that doesn’t and from my experience it’s accrued rage. The next time when you get angry give yourself permission to be angry. Let it out – rage and all. The rage is not you that’s what doesn’t belong to you. That’s what we need to get rid of. Often when we get angry we curtail it, because to us it’s not acceptable but we need to get rid of it.

        When I gave myself full permission to be angry OMG was it good. I was shocked but after I felt extremely relieved and it took it all out of me. Occassionally I get a bit angry when I recall certain things, but that is what dissipates after a while and it’s not remotely of the same intensity. The stored anger we are often holding onto is a result of their damage inflicted upon us and that’s what we need to get out of us. Once we reach that crucial stage of release it’s not long after that acceptance occurs. That’s my experience anyway. It might work differently for others but that’s how it worked for me.

        I know my method is not for everybody but I swear to God it works a charm and I highly recommend it.

        Huggzzzzzz Lucy and have a great week-end and have fun moving! Plant a lovely new garden in honor of yourself.

  28. I changed my number (mobile) and any email is being bounced from my server. She’s been telling providers even, that I have a “thought disorder” (she knows what it means, and as if to prove it, got angry when I pointed that out” and when I was on supplemental nutrition last year, my electrolytes were over-corrected, and that was presented like an OD, which is what she told them, on top of which I had a thought disorder (hallucinations and delusions), which when I woke up, which I am blessed to have done, they’d assumed it was water intoxication and/or that I intentionally ate too much salt, so when I came around, I was given an antipsychotic. I took it out, refused it and was angrily discharged with no help. After a major brain bleed/brain swelling.

    Called my landline again. I hung up, told them (live where someone else gets it, long story) not to put her calls through. And then contacted the police department at my old address, asking for a copy of the report in which she told them I was incompetent and suicidal. I was neither-I have a life limiting illness is all. I assured them I was fine, but then they called her back (I told them to pass on, “I am right where I am, it is right where I need to be, and I know exactly where that is, at 42, I have the right to disappear too.” The returned her call by telling her that she’d be charged with filing a false police report if it happened again. This was NE, they will follow through.

    Just in case, I told them I needed their documentation.

    1. JC

      This is how they operated. They are vile filth. Mothers/daughters in particular because there should be a very special bond there but anybody who does this to another human being is a true monster. Why I think it would be truly horrific for a child having a mother inclined toward this callous, disgusting behavior is because it is the mother’s primary responsibility to nurture. This is traditionally not the father’s role. When the mother assumes the predatory controlling aspect there is no nurture available to the children. They are likely to develop CEN – Childhood Emotional Neglect. It is something you might wish to look into JC just in case and I believe it would probably be rare not to have this as a result. Others turn into CD. They drop their empathy and polarise to the opposite end of the spectrum.

      It is so common specially the sadistic/predatory class to pull this type of stunt. They will literally go out of their way to make it look like it is you who suffer the mental problems and they don’t give a dam if you actual life is in danger. To them that just gives them the upper hand in their evil arsenal. Therefore I believe they are fully aware of what they are doing. Is is not only slanderous but vile it really shows you what evil filth they are. To this end it is easy to walk away from them. We only stay out of some misconceived notion that they will come to their senses and wake up to the damage they are doing. Don’t hold your breath. You will never receive such an acknowledgement or apology. They will continue to soul rape you in the process of having to reclaim back lost ground they see as you stealing from them because you have the strength of character to stand up for yourself.

      Make no mistake JC at this point now you have gotten away, your mother will go to no end of trouble to destroy you and you can count on it. Narcissists destroy those they can not control. As far as she is concerned you are nothing more than a toaster and if you don’t work she won’t just throw you out, she will chop you into pieces. Don’t worry you are in good company you are with the rest of the retired toasters here -wink-

      It’s really important and I can’t stress the enough to really know yourself inside and out. Your mother does and she will have every aspect of your nature nailed. She knows your blind spots and weaknesses. This is where you need close any gaps and to pull on your cloak of invisibility. A good book that can help you out here is Emotional Alchemy How the Mind can Heal the Heart by Tara Bennett Goleman. This is a book every human being should read. You have to be very mindful of those you meet in future, know the narcissist inside and out. MAN KNOW THEYSELF – then KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

      In lieu of you getting away is there anybody else she is likely to shift her abusive focus on? They tend to do this as well. When I went NC with my daughter she quickly went after her brother. They have to fill the supply gap and when we remove them from our life they are no longer obtaining their precious supply they require so much. Akin to a vampires need for blood they must find another sources of supply.

      My darling daughter stole all of my mothers inheritance while her own brother she professed to love so much was struggling financially after having complications post brain tumor removal. Shows how kind hearted and compassionate they are most certainly not. When you have a life threatening illness is when they really show their true colors because they have no regard for human life let alone suffering. All they understand is how they can win. The more you suffer the better that makes them feel. They truly are vile, human stains.

      You have made the right choice to obtain documentation and continue to do it. Keep a journal of everything. BTOV has given you some excellent advice. The crew here will support you. We all find our way to this site after being badly beaten by these creatures. We often turn up here bruised and broken and it’s a critical link to help and loving support. If it wasn’t for the others here I would have ended up a basket case. I hope you find that this site and the people here will help you exponentially. We have all done our time with these creatures and I know each and every one of us is a stronger person today than what we were when we first turned up.

      Sharing your trauma with others who have suffered similar is a very healing and nurturing process and you need this during this time. Recovery after abuse is critical and you will go through stages that necessitate a trusted network of support is available. This is also a very safe site as it’s run by a practicing psychiatrist who is an expert in CD – when the odd one makes their way here to stir up trouble and they do they are routed out pretty quick. They get squashed like bugs here where other sites have reported narc attack as prevalent. So welcome to our little family, I hope you enjoy and grow from your stay.

      1. This breaks my heart to do. I live in different state, and though I don’t really worry so much anymore, I live in the midwest, she lives on the East Coast, I do worry what happens if she shows up, comes to “visit,” and someone asked me if I had a doctor who could vouch for me not being crazy.

        I told her I didn’t need one, that any cop can tell you that.

        That to me, is scary, I can proect myself, I have been bigger in size always, but I don’t want to ever be put into this position. I never thought until now, that she’d do anything to me to cause harm physically, asssault or anything, but now, I am not so sure.

        1. JC,

          I am dealing with the CD in my life right now and they can draw all your energy from you, I also deal with chronic pain. Keep posting as I have dealt with this type of situation before. There are ways to protect yourself and you have “Rights.”

          As Eudox has repeated said: “Know Thy Self.” The CDN know your buttons well, you need to learn to turn them off and not react. Can I ask you how you stumbled onto Dr.’s blog? This is a great place for you to be nurtured, gain knowledge, strength and above all to “Take Back Yourself!”

          I am in the Midwest too and there are laws that are applicable throughout the states. Hang in there and work on being well, a long tedious journey,at the end FREEDOM my friend.

          1. I live with gastroparesis, and she’s been one to seriouly make it all about her. No other way to put it. I think though, it’s gotten so much worse, and the conflict does me no favors. That is doing better to.

            I did look into into the laws here to see if I can get an order if one is needed. She’s elderly, which means nothing, and currently has gone on to her husband. I feel bad for the guy, truly, but I have the paperwork to get a protective order should it become necessary-right now, the silence it is golden. Going back to work even third shift, is a welcome break. Much as what she does send, etc, is helpful practically speaking, she is still teaching me love with conditions.

      2. I did for a while feel that the only vulnerable narcissist was one who wanted to be.

        Developmental Psych 100, the injury that stunted her emotional growth occurred between ages 2 and 7, where children are narcissists to begin with, magical thinking that their thoughts and actions affect the world.

        This type of narcissist is the vulnerable type.l

  29. in terms of disorders
    I have seen covert/overt applied to the schizoid type….
    and I am wondering if that is the more dramatic instance of
    a strange kind of twist and differentiation than in other disorders

    to me it seems that It could be

    this is suggested in the Stephen Johnson 7 typologies
    where the first [in terms of when it initially is activated in a child]
    one the schizoid type in his terms is called THE HATED CHILD

    the schizoid type as the type in some systems
    is the base from which schizophrenia is seen to develop

    here is a link to a site that addresses the issue of covert/overt in schizoid typology

    tho in general I think character disorders are called personality disorders
    even tho technically the term character disorder seems as if it is the more accurate

    there is a concept in terms of the schizoid type
    where it speaks of
    there being disorientation due to undecipherable hostile reactions
    to the child’s natural self expression…

    the more undecipherable and perhaps difficult to understand
    would be the covert form…
    which I assume is not only in terms of seeing it in the schizoid’s personality
    but in terms of the hatred shown by a parent or parents towards the child….

    also of interest
    might be what kind of personality/character type might be the parent
    I suspect that the parent would more likely be a narcissist or psychopath
    than a schizoid type….

    there is a term uh in terms of narcissism of a kind of secondary form of narcissism
    that is not as bad
    I think the acronym might be LICE
    perhaps LASTING INFLUENCE ….. upon a child from a narcissistic parent
    where the child might get labeled as narcissist
    but the more clever narcissistic parent might escape diagnosis

    especially when the child tries to claim that the parent is the narcissist…
    the clever gaslighting of the narcissistic parent
    has where the child appears to have the narcissistic issues
    and the parent comes off as being concerned and doing the best they can
    to help the child …
    and the parent then often escapes notice as the primary narcissist
    or psychopath as the case may be

  30. Right you are on the child (my sister and I both).

    Cut this person off. It gets better immediately once you do.

    I’m so sorry.

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