Lies Manipulative Malignant Narcissists Tell

Why We Lie – Revisited

Last week, I shared the most recent research on why folks lie. (See: Why We Lie – Even to Ourselves.) For the most part, we lie to avoid something we don’t want. Or, we lie to get something we desire but fear we can’t secure honestly. But manipulative malignant narcissists often lie for a more sinister reason. And that reason begs further exploration.

Why Manipulative, Malignant Narcissists Lie

We’ve applied the label “psychopath” to the most malignant narcissists. (For more on this topic see: Malignant Narcissism: At the Core of Psychopathy.) We did so because some once thought these disturbed characters had a true mental illness. In fact, a pioneer researcher (Herve Cleckley) labeled them “morally insane.” And he partly did so because he could’t make sense of their penchant for lying. They lied even when when they didn’t have to. In fact, they lied not only when the truth would suffice but also when it would likely serve them better. Their inveterate lying simply made no sense. It seemed irrational,…crazy!

Years ago I learned what science has since validated. There is a method to the apparent “madness” of these pathological liars. (See, also: Why Some People Lie So Much.) Manipulative malignant narcissists lie to keep one step ahead of you. They engage in a constant dance of positioning for advantage. They want you to be in the dark or second-guessing yourself. And they don’t want you to have their number. They neither want you to know who they really are nor what they’re really up to. They seek only power, dominance, and control. And lying enables this. It gives them the position of advantage. (See, also: Habitual Liars and Their Agendas.)

Lying and the Gaslighting Effect

Manipulative malignant narcissists can make you feel crazy. You scratch your head. You wonder, “Do they really believe what they’re saying?”. They’ll say whatever they need to say. And they’ll do whatever they need to do. All to make you doubt. Once they have you questioning yourself, they gain the position of advantage. That’s the name of their game! As I first pointed out in In Sheep’s Clothing, that’s also exactly how they manipulate you.

Learn more about manipulative, malignant narcissists in Character Disturbance. And avail yourself of the many other blog articles on this topic.


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87 thoughts on “Lies Manipulative Malignant Narcissists Tell

  1. I had a friend who lied to me…once…but it was such a brutal, mean spirited lie and hurt me so terribly, I followed up on it immediately. I had her pegged as a narcissist, years prior, or I wouldn’t have known how to handle her. Her lie blew back on her in a most unexpected way. She had obviously been pulling this crap on others for years so was really surprised that she didn’t get away with it…again.

    Her lie was purposeful though. It made sense. She was trying to exclude me socially because she is an attention hound. But the other kind of liar who appears to lie for no reason? They seem to want to throw everybody off balance, all of the time. Think how much time and energy those around them put into just trying to figure out why they lie for nothing? That alone must give them a lot of pleasure and an edge, in a way. Lies of any type wear down the energy reserves of those who are lied to. From a purely physical perspective, they are draining everyone around them.

    Though they aren’t insane, this kind of behavior mocks up insanity and there is nothing more depleting than trying to figure out the why’s and wherefores of craziness. It’s all a win win for them. If they are approached sympathetically, as if they don’t actually have a grip on reality, they can turn that into a game too.

    1. Kat,

      I am going back to your post on the last topic, You are not pathetic and I don’t find your posts full self pity. The last thing you need to be is hard on yourself, instead hold the CDN, accountable. Its sounds like a life of triangulating and your the scapegoat, there always is a scapegoat.

      However, we can change the generational sin of our forefathers by refusing to be the sacrificial lamb anymore. I think you are getting a sense of the true picture. I think you know we are to get away from these kind, it is hard to do and we can feel guilty and drawn back into the triangulation because we want so bad for it to be different. We can’t rewrite the past in regards to what happened, we can understand, let go or we can let that seed fester and then it will be as LisaO explained above.

      LisaO said: “Though they aren’t insane, this kind of behavior mocks up insanity and there is nothing more depleting than trying to figure out the why’s and wherefores of craziness. It’s all a win win for them. If they are approached sympathetically, as if they don’t actually have a grip on reality, they can turn that into a game too.”

      Truly there is nothing more depleting than trying to figure out the why’s and wherefores of craziness. It is a win win for them when you take this into your life and live it forever. Sometimes the simplest way is the easiest way. Follow the truth the way and the light. These are perilous times and it is time to put on that suit of Armour.

      I know once I did this the CDN had no hold on me anymore.

      1. BTOV, I believe I was the scapegoat. One of my sisters kept trying to draw me back in with them despite their behavior, she would not acknowledge it. I think she is in denial. She is a Christian and that is why I gave her words weight. But recently her and I were in contact with a woman who used to belong to our church and I was able to identify her as a narcissist, but before I knew about narcs, I told my sister I would not be doing anything with this “friend” anymore because I found her to be abusive and I had suffered enough abuse in my life and would not suffer it again. I think my sister felt she was following Gods word by being a friend to her no matter her difficulty, and I admit I felt my sister was just stronger in the faith than me. Later after I identified her as a NARC I knew I should have trusted my gut. It was at that point I began to trust my gut about these other family members who are not narcs but are abusive, critical and used to getting their own way, and decided I did not have to try to be in relationship with them. Following the truth, the light tells me that I am a person who has value. I read that how you feel about yourself is how others will feel about you. That makes sense. Now I just need to not let the negative doubts get the best of me. Thanks for your response, it always gives me much to ponder and I truly appreciate it.

        1. Kat,

          When we come from a place of truth, many times there will be others who will want to pull you down from that truth. Not all people respect our truth, our person. It is of utmost importance to understand the difference. There are so many “Truths” out there it can make you dizzy.
          In your heart and being you will know what is truth. Always, remember, the enemy will lie, cheat and steal to crush your truth.

          You are on the right path, you are on your journey, there will be stumbling blocks, many of them. All of these obstacles when utilized as learning tools to grow will only make you stronger.

          We start our journeys as life in the womb, we are born and continue on life’s path. Many never progress past the infantile/child stage and many of us go on carrying false tapes that hold us back. It is our job to weed these out and continue growing in faith and love.

          I have my days, we all have our days, we get tired, its difficult and so forth, believe me in the end all the work and life’s lessons you integrated and learned will be a future tool you will be glad you acquired.

          Kat, there are CDN, sleazy, conniving, manipulating people in every venue of life. You will know them, take heed, shake off the dust and be on your way. Live your life, the life you believe in, along with an unshakable faith, in the end you will find strength and above all the courage to stand your ground against all odds.

          Keep Fighting the Good Fight.

          Hugs and many blessings, your in my prayers, Kat…..

        2. Kat
          To me, you sound healthy and wise. You’ve thought about things that have happened, responded as you saw fit, you’re seeing clearly. The first step in healing , for me, is figuring it out, or in some cases, not figuring it out, because some CDN are so bizarre they don’t make sense. Once you get used to doing without the people you’re accustomed to dealing with, the people who have given you problems, you realize you don’t even want to be around them and their nonsense drama.
          I feel like life is short and I want to enjoy what’s left. I’m sure you do as well. We all do.

          1. To All,

            Lucy, posted this response last week, late on Friday right before the new topic came out. I have reposted as I what Lucy says is so important. Two excellent comments in a row, AndyD’s Wit and Lucy’s Wise words to take back her life. Thanks Lucy, I love it.


            March 9, 2018 at 3:41 pm
            Very well said. Goodbye to the negative. Be Gone. Don’t need you or it.
            My life with the X has now passed. Passed. That means it’s gone. He is now out of my life (well not entirely, we have adult children together) and I can and do move on. He hurt me and now I’m healing.

            Since the finalization of divorce proceeding my motto for this year is RESTORE. Try my best to restore what was broken, be it my checkbook, my emotional health, my spirit, my happiness, my family, my physical health, now is the time to RESTORE.
            What happened happened, it hurt me, but it’s done, and now it’s time to fix what broke.
            Got to turn those negative thought into positive. Quit the stinkin’ thinkin’. I’m looking forward to a new day, a new future, a new present. For what really matter now is my present and future.

        3. Not “I think she is in denial.”
          Better is “I think she is denying.”
          Or, even better “I think she is lying.”

          1. AndyD,

            Love the response, a real winner. Leave up to you to come up with this comeback. How are things going with you?

          2. BTOV,

            I am doing good.
            Court etc is a big hassle, but it doesn’t make life miserable.

            My previous comment still gives benefit of doubt. If one can, and he need not be 100% sure, he should simply say “she is lying”. 🙂

  2. Wow… That so perfectly describes my brother. So much chaos, turmoil and hurt he creates in our family, and always makes himself out to be the victim. Especially if any of us call him on the lies. How do you deal with this? Now it’s effecting the grandkids as well. They believe him … He is so adept at the lies. has done it all his life.

  3. You talk like a liar can never fail and a lie always leads to ‘get what you want’.

    That is a lie.

    And yes people who lie even when the truth is better for themselves are insane, that they are not is a lie.

    Lying doesn’t equal serving yourself, at all.

  4. Lying per se doesn’t give one the upper hand. You talk like lying is the sure method for power and success. That’s false.

    Especially lying to yourself will always make you a loser sooner or later.

    More lack of wisdom from mr Liar here.

    You paint liars as sure winners. LIE.

  5. The problem I have with narcissistic parents, is the lessons they teach their children.

    Be just like the one person any narc loves-and that is themselves.

    And they can be very difficult lessons to overcome. But it is in overcoming it, that the narc does not win.

    When it suits a narc to lie and say, “no, not me,” then the lessons they pass along to children, is that if you get into a tight spot, put yourself first, and lie your way out of it.

    It also teaches a kid nothing about personal accountability.

    And as both my parents are like this-abusive only on the gaslighting, what wound up happening is they played me off one another-so mostly, never knew what end is up with either one-they mirror mental illness and then take full advantage of it.

    Breaking that cycle, not easy. But then yes, finding the funding for that survivors of narcissistic abuse-because when I come unglued any time I deal with people who are narcs, I run for cover-or I simply fall apart.

    Not a pretty picture when also you run into one in the profession of people you were pawned off on-psychologists, etc.

    But that I remain committed to getting that stuff dealt with, and what I am grateful for, is having my sister-I had thought my father was a safe person, and now I am not so sure.

    Once I am back at work though, completely cutting ties with them-relishing the thought when both are elderly, definitely not. What you wind up doing to yourself is worse. If I don’t cut ties, though, it isn’t going to get much better. Most of that part, cutting ties, is already done and over with-recovering, takes much longer.

  6. I think your sidebar subscription widget is broken. I’m getting error messages and it never completes the process.

        1. Lucy

          Does this come to mind at all “lead us not into temptation” etc etc……… they try to invite us out of integrity remember they are really only boggarts with a small b

          Lucy et all

          “A boggart is a shapeshifter that usually lurks in dark spaces. It has no definite form, taking the shape of that which is most feared by the person who encounters it. When not in the sight of a person, it is believed to look like a dark blob. To repel or destroy a boggart, it must be laughed at. The spell Riddikulus can be cast to force the boggart to assume a generally amusing shape of what the caster mentally conceives. Boggarts turn up to reveal a person’s deepest fears”.

          Just make them ridiculous :-

  7. Lucy, Jc,

    All of us here are on a journey, the scenario, the characters, etc., are different and I think the outcome is we all want healing. We are all looking for answers, healing, peace, closure, etc., the path to get there may vary accordingly, the end results we are looking for the same. How we get there will vary too, so will the scuffs, bruises and brokenness that brings us there.

    I try to use every bump in the road as a learning experience. Many times I have had to go through the same thing many times to finally get it. Many things I have never gone through because I already got it. It is different for all of us.

    Lucy and JC, I know we can be hard on ourselves and many times are our own worst enemy, however, when we reach the point where we reach out and admit to , acknowledge and then own these negative thoughts and behaviors we are on the road to recovery.

    Everyone has their own path, some choose the same path or a different path, what is important is we are on the path and stay the course. Tripping and falling, scrapes and bruises and incorporating these stumbling blocks into the process will make one all the stronger, I know, it has worked for me. I know of many who have come and gone, many to enjoy a life of happiness.

    Peace and goodwill to all.

  8. Kat,

    In reference to others feel about you how you feel about yourself, I don’t believe that. You have to really think through these “sayings”. Who said it? Who says this person is the authority? These sayings are what led many of us to believe falsities, led us on a harmful path. Words like “love will see you through”. BS. Love can make you hang onto a situation that can destroy you.
    One can have negative feelings about one’s value as a person, but there are others who can see the goodness and value of a person, but that that person has been harmed in some way and lack confidence.

    1. Lucy

      I can clarify what Kat is trying to say and it is pretty well standard psychology for the best part. Our brains are like little sponges and we did not have a cognitive reasoning brain protecting us from taking on powerful painful messages. These messages were absorbed directly into our subconscious.

      When we move into adolescence and adulthood we are unconsciously acting in ways that allow us to “show up” for others in ways that match our unconscious false beliefs. I believe this is what Kat was trying to say and it is accurate as in “what we think of ourselves is how others see us” pretty well yes. The nasty bit here is – we are not aware or conscious of this.

      These behaviors are in alignment with maladaptive childhood schemas you can google this and it is psychology 101. Even benign behaviors we exhibit can have not such benign outcomes. These are otherwise known as false beliefs/scrips/programs and we are unconscious of them because we could not process them at the time. They end up manifesting in us via automatic behaviors. How many times have you asked yourself “why did I do or say that”? and ended up with an outcome that was the opposite of what you had intended? That is a schema at work.

      The link below gives the full list of them. It’s important to know that nobody on this planet is exempt from these. We don’t have all of them, but we do have some of them and it’s up to us to resolve these within ourselves in order for us to become our authentic selves. This was the first part of the initial self work I did but I still ended up in narcland…………….

      If we allow these to run amok we will continually act in ways that have consequences that aren’t what we want – to say the least. Narcs – holy moly – it’s what attracted them to us in the first place – and allowed them to hook into us via our unresolved wounds. Again this is not applicable to narc abuse by parents but the level of schemas and false beliefs a person will have as a result of abuse can be profound more so than those who were neglected or had non abusive parents.

      If we took on the messages that we were conditionally loved for what we did or didn’t do, how we did or didn’t look, or what we did or didn’t have – rather than knowing we were unconditionally loveable and acceptable for who we are, then we became co-dependent – this sets us up for the the toxic tango later in life.

      I hope that helps – it’s hard to wrap our heads around at times.

      1. To All,

        This is a great link Eudox posted for those who want information and further therapies. I am familiar with J. Youngs work, I believe he does a phenomenal work in addressing maladaptive schemas and bringing them to the forefront. I like the fact J. Young combines Schema Therapy with CBT including Gestalt.

        1. Thanks BTOV it’s the standard used in psychology but it’s now 60 years plus old -many new improvements are being made all the time.

          To All – these schemas are just the tip of the iceberge. What lies beneath can’t be found as easily as these are using self observation. I found mine relatively easily but we have to be brutally honest with ourselves in the process. Again what’s underneath them is a treasure trove of unresolved false beliefs we have about ourselves that are not located that easily. I’m dealing with mine now using QFH and our unconscious minds really are like a Sarah Lee cake there are many layers. We had 7 years of this process every experience we had is stored in there somewhere in some form…………………scary huh?

          Abdul Saad is a clinical psychologist practicing in Sydney – he operates Vital Mind Psychology and he’s got quite a few talks on the empath/co-dependent side of the toxic tango. This is an amazing talk by him – I’m not sure if I’ve posted it here so I’ll re-post. He makes an extremely impressive point about everybody having to address their false beliefs in order to fully mature emotionally – which means owning our own sh**^*………because until we do – ego steps in and this culminates in the lies we tell ourselves.

          There is another psychologist in the US going down the same path when I remember her name I’ll post her links too for anyone who is interested.

          1. Really great links Eudoxia, though I feel I don’t have enough hours in the day to work on all that needs working on. Kind of overwhelming, but very enlightening also. Can I ever identify with both links! I am going to listen to more Dr. Saad talks to start with.

          2. Eudox, Kat,

            I watched several Dr. Abdul Saad, so far the majority of his videos are very good, a few things I would had liked to add. Thanks again, for posting all the links you do. I am going to watch all of this doc’s tubes.

            Kat, I think in watching Dr. Saad you will find a lot that may resinate with you. It’s all a personal choice on how much info your interested and how deep you want to dig. You are are on the right track, keep watching and work on the triggers and buttons others seem to push on you. I have deactivated and trashed many of these in my life.

          3. BTOV, good advice about buttons and triggers. I am going to look at the schema website too, I found my coping mechanism on there and I see they are things that stunt growth. My personal one is isolating myself as I have always been shy and had social anxiety but now in looking deeper, it is much more involved than that. Things can get so complex, and I find it easy to get overwhelmed. Sorting things out to see more clearly can be so difficult, but as Eudoxia describes it , as onion peeling, one layer at a time.

    2. I think others that are kind and willing to make the effort to look deeper will try to understand another, and that’s the best in life in my opinion. I meant that as having both a positive and negative side. When we are confident and feel good about ourselves we have the belief that we can take care of ourselves and we can have good relationships. When we feel bad about ourselves we too self-focused and caught up in our failures and its not easy to make connections with others. At least that’s my experience. As a child I formed beliefs about myself that were negative, and later, when I was able to recognize that my Mom and Dad were not introspective people and were not cognizant of the damage they did, and that it was a cycle that was continuing from their past, I was still stuck with all the beliefs about myself I formed when as Euxodia says, we were too young to process them. For me I lived that out by forming relationships with other people who were abusive and could not function well either. Pain is a great motivator, when the pain level is just too much to bear anymore, we are forced to take action and try and find help because we don’t want to live that way anymore. Of course I know I am speaking to the choir here!

      1. Kat,

        All of this can be very complex indeed, not all individuals have to go there to heal either. I understand what you are describing, remember part of who you are is many times the makeup of an empath. Also, ones journey and circumstances can very significantly.

        I am glad to see more information being put out, I am just afraid of all the money grubbers who are ready to jump on the band wagon an exploit the exploited. There always those waiting in the wings to selectively profiteer of the misfortunes of others.

        I can tell you this internal investigation is going to be big business, mark my words. Just let me ask you how many have succeeded on their own, picking up the pieces and gone on to have a happy and fulfilled life. More than one would want you to know…

        Kat, it will get better, especially, when one is searching. Don’t give up on the good fight, the prize is closer than you think….

        Many Blessings Kindred Spirit

        1. Thanks for the ray of hope there, that the prize is closer than I think. Theres always someone out there with their hand out to get their hands on your money. Anywhere theres money to be made the vultures swoop in. I have Gods help in this fight, I am not alone.

      2. kat

        There is not one person alive now or at any point in history who has not or did not form negative beliefs about themselves as children. It’s part and parcel of our development and again it’s due to our brains not having the cognitively capacity to make sense of our experiences.

        I formed many negative beliefs about myself and not due to anybody’s fault. I did not have abusive parents but very unconscious parents. The sad part here is our parents are not able to reconcile their own false beliefs but we can. Every generation is slightly more handicapped than the previous as we end up with their damage due to imprinting and theirs before them etc………….

        Once we recognise patterns which is a highly intuitive process we can identify something a lot of people miss. And it happens in retrospect – when I look back now I see I had many narcs in my life and I’d say more than less. Or those who swung to that end of the spectrum at any rate.

        If we keep attracting the same type of person into our lives who are not good for us recognising this pattern is the first step to resolving it. Not only are they attracted to us but we are attracted to them and it ends up a vicious cycle. And you are dead right when we have had enough of pain and suffering then breaking that cycle becomes a priority – it sure has for me.

  9. Kat, what great comments from you and all who are responding to you. You come across as a wise, loving person who has been through a lot. Keep following your heart. You have a good one.

    1. Hi Lisa

      Hope all is well your end of the world. All good here except I have a case of the flu – weather wierding I think ……………….aside from that good as gold mate as they say in good old ozzie talk :-

    2. LisaO, thank you. I am finding the knowledge here that is really helping me and I hope other people who may feel similarly too. Its a real blessing.

  10. kat/BTOV et all

    I’m grateful for the direction n abuse is moving in. It’s high time that psychology started to pay more attention to the damage narcs cause – and to the people they are attracted to. As we know they can’t be treated. But we can! This is the holistic way toward stamping out this type of abuse altogether – inoculate ourselves against it.

    Once we take the attention off what the n did to us and stop playing the blame game and move our attention 100% onto our own healing then miracles start. We start finding the false beliefs we have about ourselves that lead them to us to begin with. Once we uplevel those we can no longer attract people into our lives that line up as a direct match to the unresolved parts within ourselves. That’s the only certainty we can have as a a safeguard against future abuse.

    I was no longer prepared to delude myself by thinking I had healed. It’s like this – if we are attracting narcs into our lives – then we have (unhealed aspects) hooks there ready for them to latch onto it’s as simple as that because it is by means of those they are attracted to us in the first place. Knowing all there is to know about them isn’t enough of a safeguard, we all know how they operate.

    Once they hook us in, and in the case of intelligent ultruistic narcs they will and won’t show their real hand until they have us addicted. Once that happens we are in deep trouble and we won’t know it until we are sinking in it. Then we will fight to correct it or bend ourselves into a pretzel to hold onto what we thought we had. How many times did we all lie to ourselves and try to talk ourselves out of believing we were involved with a narc? Everybody needs to be totally honest here. I AM NOT GOING DOWN THIS PATH AGAIN! There is absolutely no point in salvaging a ship after it has sunk. It’s about making our vessel sea worthy before the voyage and I am doing just that.

    The fact of the matter is if we are co-dependent in any area of our life we have attraction points for narcs to hook onto. Co-dependence is really all about seeking self validation via external sources. This equates to looking for love in all the wrong places. When we are our sole provider of self validation we will never be another narc meal again because it’s impossible. These are the blind spots within ourselves that people miss because we’d thought we’d already sealed those gaps. I know because I was one of them. Then I had 5 narcs turn up – so that flew out the window right quick!

    There will only ever be one measure we will all have and that is the quality of people we are attracting/allowing into our lives from this point forward. But attraction is the key here. A narc maybe attracted to us but within 5 mins if we are the sole providers for all our self validation that narc will be out the door so fast you won’t see em for dust because they have nothing to feed off and I have been noticing this particularly in the past month.

    Narcs won’t come anywhere near me now – the best I will get is a polite hello and that suits me just fine. Those who have narc tendencies or are of necrophilic orientation (pretty much one and the same) pay little attention to me – I can be around them for short periods but their entire attitude toward me has changed particularly face to face interactions. They no longer seek to manipulate because they know it doesn’t work so they look for greener pastures which also suits me just fine.

    I may get shot down for saying this but I’m going to anyway. I have been on my spiritual journey for a long time now and I have been very diligent about this. I thought I’d done a lot of self work. Through extensive, exhausting and life threatening suffering which was probably about 3 years from start to finish. I am eternally grateful I had narcs show up in my life because had it not been for them I would not have found the very areas in my own life where I was co-dependent and they shone a big bright spotlight on that!

    Narc abuse has allowed me to understand myself and identify and forgive myself for my own shortcomings. I have taken my relationship with myself to a whole new level. I have attained a new level of self awareness by making adjustments within my internal world and uplevelling areas where I was deficient. And in hindsight this was the exact path I had set for myself so I and I alone am totally responsible for bringing them into my life and not noticing them until my ship was sinking. And whose fault is that – MINE.

    At the end of the day and if we wish to stamp out narc abuse from humanity – it all starts with us. While this may take many generations, it is said it takes about 7 generations for paradigms to shift. Okay so be it. But I will have grand kids soon and I am going to do my level best to ensure they grow into emotionally healthy individuals who are not co-dependent in any areas of life.

    Humanity is now at a crossroads so to speak we can either evolve ourselves individually and become the best we can be or sit back and complain about the state of things and sink into oblivion like Atlantis. I’ve made my choice and we do have the power within each of us to turn this entire thing around the only thing missing will be the will to do it.

    It won’t be the narcissists or co-depenents who do this – neuropaths are an unlikely bet at this point in time also unless they get a good dose of narc abuse to wake them up and kick them into the right camp meaning discovering the first layer of false beliefs. But then again they are still likely to place themselves in the victim camp and we are just ripping ourselves off if we do this. Prolonged narc abuse tends to change things eventually in people but we can’t wait for them. So it will come down to the empaths. I didn’t even realise I was an empath until I was narc abused. I didn’t think such creatures existed – in my childhood I thought I was a witch! lol (this is common among empaths we all thought there was something wrong with us) until we awaken. What makes us awaken – narcs.

    There is a vast deal of difference between an empath and an awakened empath. There is a vast deal of different between a neuropath and an empath. How do they both evolve? Bloody narcissists evolve them! You go from neuropath to empath to awakened empath and in all cases with me it took narcissists to push me down this path. So how do I feel about them – well thanks guys cheers!!! but I won’t be inviting them over for wine and cheese anytime soon….. :-

    1. Eudoxia, I don’t think all empaths have hooked up with narcs, one of my sisters is a total empath, not even a high functioning one, and her husband is controlling but he is not a Narc. Do we just get lucky, or unlucky as we see it? Not to refute what you are saying at all, I know in my case if I can overcome this belief that I am rejected all the time and that its because something is wrong with me, I will make progress in all my relationships. Dr. Saad had a video on the spectrum of empaths that really hit home, from codependency to altruistic giving. Now I can see why I would try to “help” someone, thinking I was going to be their savior somehow and save them from what I thought was harmful to them – pretty egocentric as he said. I recently almost took on another “project” like that, where I felt it was all on my shoulders to help. I can see how easy it is from going to the average functioning empath to the codependent functioning depending on the type of person one is around and what they trigger in you. I know at one time I could describe myself as codependent for certain, but I have moved to more of the average spectrum in the middle, but I see it is something I need to be very conscious of to avoid going towards that codependent state at this point. When I was with my EX I was completely unaware of him, of my own stuff. Its so good to move on from that, but then again I was 19 when I met him and so naïve.

      1. Kat,

        I was so young too, one accepted a lot of behavior as normal. We have access to so much information today, there was none when we were young. Resources now exist to help educate one on these dysfunctional relationships. It makes all the difference once one understands the dynamics of the CDN.

        Kat, healing does come, one will always have memories and battle scars. It is up to each individual to reflect on these experiences and put them in a proper perspective. It is different for everyone and it is an individual choice.

        Kat, I would encourage you to read Dr. Simons book, The Judas Syndrome. Dr. Simon talks about ones “Come to Jesus Moment.”

        Kat, I had my “Come to Jesus Moment” years ago, I know my healing came when I laid it at the foot of the cross, I just gave it to Jesus… Truly, for me, this is when my life changed. It is by His grace, He took all this pain from me and guides my way, if I follow.

        The world is a better place because of all the empaths. Jesus was the ultimate Empath, do we call Jesus Co-Dependent because he took on everyone’s sins and only lived for others. I have friends that are high giving empaths and truly live the truth of ” do unto others as you would do unto yourself” Also, ” to love thy neighbor as thyself.” This is from the teachings of Jesus. my friends or I do not act out of co-dependency.

        I have done many of these things too, caring for others, ministering others on death beds, when others would not. This is Co=Dependency, this is compassion and love for our fellow brothers and mankind. I rate high on the scale of an Empath, in fact I am a rarer type of Empath. I too, always knew I was different, its a gift I have always had. Truly, it is a blessed gift.

        I use all life’s experiences good or bad to help me grow into a better person. I use the past to go forward and embrace all experiences and integrate them into my being.

        I have to say Kat, all the people I deal with now are good people, CDN do come along and I set my boundaries. I may have to deal with the family CDN at times, but use NC as a standard. I do know myself, I have been to the pit and I picked myself up and climbed to the top of the mountain.
        I am looking down, I did it with the help of good people, fellow Empaths that believed in me and still do. All experiences have made me a better person.

        Kat, for me personally, I give all credit to Jesus, he lives and works within me. He has a given me a gift to use to help others. Jesus has taught me to lend a hand to others that have reached out and helped me. In kind, it is paying forward. Truly, I feel blessed that the Holy Spirit directs me, all honor and glory goes to Jesus. All good within me is a gift from my creator. This is my transformation and I know I will make it to the finish line.

        Kat, you are on the right path, you may stumble, get up and stay on the path, In time it will bring you to the finish. Just remember there are many obstacles in the way, no one said it would easy, the road is narrow, stay there, let no bling and silly promises take you off that path.

        Blessings Kindred Spirit

          1. Aww thanks BTOV,

            I’m all “ears” at the moment. I’m still listening and learning and lately I’ve been interested in another epidemic which is estrangement. It’s quite the phenomenon. It’s not happening to me as such but it appears to be starting with SS. I have given myself permission to carry on as normal but I think H is trying to find his “level of acceptance” as LisaO suggested.

            If anyone remembers I had composed a letter to SS from myself to him but never sent it, nor will I. As Eudoxia advised it would have had a ripple effect and certainly not in my favor. The letter did it’s job as I have no more anger so it was a great exercise and it also spelled out what I go through every time H’s son says he will do something but never completes the “task” and then witness how hurt my H is. I have finally gotten it into my head that his hurt is not my responsibility to carry or to “fix.”

            One positive thing I did was ripped the Facebook band-aid off and I’m committed to never going back.

            I spent a good part of this morning reading over old posts from the link you suggested on Crying Out for Justice. It was very interesting to read the articles and comments.

            Thanks for asking about me.

          2. Sydney,

            Glad you are here, your comments are important. Its great to have regular posters, we share and learn so much from each other.

            I refuse to use Facebook. Good for you, you have taken positive steps.
            In telling your story of your SS, it won’t be a healthy relationship with the SS and father. The DIL covets the attention your SS will get from his father. The DIL’s main objective is to separate the SS from father.

            If you respond in a negative way it will only give the DIL leverage. Truly, all your H can do is spend what time he can with his son be curtious to the DIL and wait. There may come a time when the SS will need his father to reach out to.

            I know these situations are trying and difficult. Be patient, support your husband and know you are doing the right thing. Letters are great for letting off steam and NEVER send them. It is sad to know we can only sit back and watch and perhaps wait.

            I find it best to let it be part of the past and like Lucy said: RESTORE
            what we can and go one. Always, look for the positive. I like the saying: “Let Go and Let God”


        1. BTOV, we truly are kindred spirits, I credit God for any good or wisdom that is in me as well. I credit God with me forgiving the EX. I will get the Judas Syndrome book, I prefer to read psychology books written by Christians because then I don’t have to put all the information thru the “God filter” and try to sort it out, its sometimes very hard to do and I don’t want to get on the wrong path. It took me a long time to forgive myself because of the kids not having a real father. I guess that hit me the hardest because of my childhood where I felt like my parents didn’t love me. I remember one time, I was 10 years old and my Mom was vacuuming and I had an epiphany all of a sudden that I knew nothing about my Mom and that she was a stranger to me. I said to her “I don’t even know you”, my Mom got a strange look on her face and said “you’re scaring me” and she went back to her vacuuming. Lol. I like what Dr. Saad had to say about altruistic giving, rather than the codependent giving where it is giving out of unhealthy personal unmet needs, and seems more about ourselves than others.

      2. kat

        I totally agree – not all empaths end up with narcs far from it but a good deal do. Again it entirely depends on our childhood experiences and the false beliefs we acquired during those years. IMO luck has nothing to do with it – it’s what we draw to us. If a person has had a reasonably good upbringing without abuse and raised by caring and emotionally present parents they are not going to be nearly as traumatised as someone who suffered abuse or emotionally negligent parents. So there is a pretty big difference. Also it’s not just parents we are impacted by – siblings, other family members, teachers, priests etc. We have absolutely no control over what we are subjected to or who.

        Narcs prefer empaths due to the generous amount of narc supply they put out plus they have incredible staying power (pathological giving) as they always see themselves as the fixers in the relationship and the one responsible for the entire relationship. This is where most of the damage is done and when narcs get to suck the life force clean out of us. And it’s not just them either – anybody with little or no self esteem is prone to energetic vampirism and they are pretty easy to recognise.

        Who isn’t naive at 19? Anybody who suggests they were enlightened at that age is probably a narc or running a Messiah Complex lol. Our triggers are actually the way to resolve the false belief if we apply ourselves. Identifying a maladaptive schema is one thing resolving the false belief underlying it is another.

        I took Saad’s advice here too – for the first time in a long time I got up and made breakfast – an egg on toast and had my first coffee after that. I’m guilty as charged in the coffee department I must say lol

        1. I have been doing everything he suggested for quite a while, I can’t have caffeine because it makes my heart palpitations worse. I take extra magnesium too. That’s good advice for everybody. It takes a lot of courage to face ourselves, to me its very scary at times but I can’t accept the alternative either.

          1. kat maybe get your electrolytes checked if your having heart palpitations especially if you are experiencing cramping in your feet or toes – it could be a sign of potassium deficiency which can be serious.

            I’m onto the magnesium also – I’ve got the flu at the moment but it’s clearing up within record time I must say. I think it must be due to the seasonal change at any rate I’m on the up and up.

            I’m a huge Carl Jung proponent – it’s imperative to face our own shadow to deny we have one is denial period. We are not all goodness, sunshine and lollipops – I faced mine some time ago and it was pretty angry. And yes the alternative is totally unacceptable.

            I found an exceptionally good talk by Jung the other evening I’ll post it when I find it he’s talking about empaths and the IN I – Introverted N Intuitive functioning.

          2. Kat,

            Once you embrace all of those uncomfortable and scary feelings, you will find it gets easier. Not easy at first, it takes work and determination. however, in the end you will feel free.

            I came from a very dysfunctional and abusive environment. I embraced it and integrated it into myself. It turned out as a gift which I use to help others. Believe me I know a CDNSP, I can feel them in my gut and whole being.

            Its something when I look at the road I took. Truly, Kat you have an undiscovered beautiful, kind loving soul, she crying to come. I am glad you are sharing, its the beginning of a journey. Kat, you have more freedom to liberate yourself than you realize. Your in the right direction, don’t let anyone take it from you.

            It is about Restoring your confidence, self esteem and letting go of the past. When I look back, its just its back, my life is here in the now and i can look ahead to the future.

            A big Hug to you, Dear One

          3. Kat, Eudox,

            I agree with Eudox, I have the same problem, I don’t metabolize properly, its a whole slew of things. I do eat a banana and that is not enough. I take 595mg of potassium at night and it completely relieved the cramping. You may find this is just what you need. I wouldn’t recommend taking more than this amount at first, see what results you get first. You can up the dose in the morning.
            However, this dose should be sufficient. It can be hard on your kidney’s, 595mg is a safe amount. Checked all this out with y docs and they agree. Looking forward to see if it helps. It may take a week or two for you to get the desired effects.

            I agree on checking your electrolytes, I will say mine were fine, the extra potassium did the trick. I would suggest you read up on this.

            Not knowing you, you may suffer adrenal fatigue and other miladies. Stress can be a killer, a result of being sucked dry by the CDN’s. Yup, its a whole other process to heal ones body.

            Magnesium is great, I take a liquid form which is absorbed more quickly. The best is if you make a magnesium oil or lotion. This form is the best as it is dermal absorption and passes through your skin immediately, into your body, then into your bloodstream. Treat yourself if you haven’t to Epsom salt baths. I order the salts from the dead sea in bulk when its on sale.

            If you have other health issues on top of stress ones body can go haywire. I have had a lot success with my herbal remedies, its my hobby. Its nice as I heal myself and my docs get a kick out me.

            Good Luck

          4. Kat, it is within you, I believe you are gathering strength now. This wonderful. It is a biblical teatching, We can forgive, let go and at the same time plant a seed. Many have sown infertol seed and plants that should be burned. We are a solid branch. Lets show them and ourselves/

            My Kindred Spirit, I am proud pf you. Hugs and talk later

  11. Our Deepest Fear – Poem by Marianne Williamson

    Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
    Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
    It is our light, not our darkness
    That most frightens us.

    We ask ourselves
    Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?
    Actually, who are you not to be?
    You are a child of God.

    Your playing small
    Does not serve the world.
    There’s nothing enlightened about shrinking
    So that other people won’t feel insecure around you.

    We are all meant to shine,
    As children do.
    We were born to make manifest
    The glory of God that is within us.

    It’s not just in some of us;
    It’s in everyone.

    And as we let our own light shine,
    We unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.
    As we’re liberated from our own fear,
    Our presence automatically liberates others

  12. Sydney,

    It’s good to hear you’re finding some peace. And I agree that the writing out of things is healing in itself. Doesn’t have to be spent, but seeing one’s own words in writing seems to bring clarity. It’s as if you’re talking out loud to yourself.
    Now let’s hope your husband finds some peace.
    Life can be difficult, for sure, so let’s celebrate the good, easy days!

  13. When the narcissistic effect in (and on) my life began with one parent who turned me against the other-who in turn though to a far lesser degree, does the same type of thing (gaslighting), his seems at least, though you learn fast it is not always the case, to be less so of a conscious decision to do this-or at first.

    A narc lies for one reason, I believe-to feed the narcissistic supply.

    Sometimes, those of us lesser affected psychologically (I am not my parents), I know that at least, there is treatment for what I do-a medication if need be at some point, etc-some therapy. My 12 step program, etc.

    Sometimes those lesser affected lie-because even if for a short time, the truth is worse. That stuff, any lies, it always falls apart-one, is we always have a giveaway of some kind.

    Admitting the truth, getting some help-even if it can be a huge challenge, will also always be a good change. It is the capacity for change that defines you.

    1. JC

      I do not believe gaslighting is performed unconsciously. Why because it is a deliberate act of attempting to set someone up in order manipulate that person into becoming the person the gaslighter is attempting to mold them into.

      Therefore gaslighters are acting in cold blood knowing exactly what they are doing – trying to set somebody up for a fall. I personally feel it is the most soul destroying and worst aspect of their covert arsenal and shows beyond reasonable doubt they are malicious abusers.

      1. Very true, its deliberate, calculating and many times done in progression. The CDN slowly alters reality. Its like catching an insidious cancer you are unaware of and as the CDNSP add more toxins and rewrites reality the worse it gets, the worse you get.

        Yes, the CDNSP, know what they are doing, they have a goal in mind……
        Its called destruction…………… destroy that which you envy……..

        1. BTOV

          “It’s called destruction……destroy that which you envy” Don’t you mean what they envy? Emotionally healthy people don’t envy and envy is distinct from jealousy.

          I don’t believe they all want to destroy us – some would but most are out to control and mold us into somebody else. Either way it’s unacceptable. At the time my ex bf was up to her tricks and she was a serious gaslighter I didn’t fully recognise it as gaslighing at the time but I knew she was trying to set me up. I wouldn’t buy into it and over time she become more malignant. They up the ante and try hard only exposing themselves more doing so.

          This is something I just don’t get with them. They know when they have been caught yet they try even harder to frame you and do more of the same obviously expecting to get away with it. This is why I think they border on totally psychotic.

          She even attempted to do the same thing as the movie only with electric lights. I got up one night to go to the toilet and the lights were on, turned them off went back to bed. Got up later lights on again. Turned them off again got up in the morning only to be assaulted by a barrage of accusations and abuse. I sorted it right there on the spot – I won’t tolerate that.

          At any rate she’s no longer my problem and I’m not making it mine either. Now that I’ve entered into a state of emotional non attachment I can’t get too attached to another person’s drama at all. Nor can they extract energy from me. It’s almost comical when they try and there are a few out there who still try – they are just boggarts. Not all emotional vampire are narcs but all narcs are emotional vampires. I’m now immune to all of them :-

          What has happened your name tag it’s suddenly in lower case??

  14. Hi Sydney

    I’m glad to hear you didn’t end up sending that letter – that was a good choice. I wrote several probably 3 or 4 to my daughter over the past 18 months or so. I didn’t send one of them but it does have a healing effect as it’s a form of release as well and any release is good. Anger is not such a great thing to hang on to and writing certainly is one way of reducing it’s negative affects :-

    1. Eudoxia I agree anger is a terrible thing to hold on to.

      I read a line or two recently on estrangement and the gist was, when we have children we raise them as best as we can and in the end they have the right to choose how they want to live their lives. I mulled that over and thought I need to wipe the slate clean and erase the negative thoughts I have of SS and his narc wife. That doesn’t mean I am reaching out to start anew it means that I will no longer entertain the past grievances. I know one thing for sure their lives are none of my business.

      I am however preparing myself to deflect any future hurt by tamping down my need to fix things, I know it would only take one phone call or an email for H to reconnect with SS and I will stand back and support him but not at the expense of my own emotional health. I feel so good about the things I learn here. We heal in different ways, at different times and take different paths but thinking back to when I started out here I’ve changed a lot about how I react to situations. I even feel softer.

      1. Sydney,

        I have the same problem with my son and his wife, she is a covert one and wears the pants. Anger in the right context is good thing. To carry around rejection, and all the other negatives from relationships like this futile. Improper anger on builds on itself like a cancer.

        I have taken the same road as you have described. I have said to my children the door is always to you. The hard part for them is to ask what they want in humility. Also, I have to discern if they have anterior motives when they want something or come around.

        Sydney, I just wish them all the best and pray they find their way. I am not letting all this petty behavior take one ounce of my life from me. I will know when I am being manipulated. Thanks for sharing your story.

      2. Hi Sydney

        It was lovely to receive your response this morning – it was the first thing I opened. I actually took a look at estrangement myself last night – the opens another perspective as well thank you for that.

        We are all on an amazing journey and for me personally my narc experience as horrible as it was and as it is for everybody, has allowed me to truly find forgiveness and acceptance within myself. Our experiences while not the same all share a similarity and a familiarity.

        Judgement, blame and condemnation of others only leads to separation and definitely estrangement and it can never be any other way. If others are reflecting back to us that which is inside us that is unhealed then we are doing exactly the same to them. If we see them as this or that, and we put ourselves in their shoes – how do we really how we are showing up for them and what are they really seeing in us? We don’t know – we can only assume because we are looking at nothing but a projection.

        If we are hurt then we are viewing others through the filters of our own wounding we are unable to actually SEE them to truly see them while we are judging them then the same applies to them. In saying that I do believe there are dark souls upon the plane at this point in time – for a purpose. They have a different job to do and they too are an essential part of creation and their fate is none of our business they are not for us to deal with after their job is done with us. They are for a higher power to deal with – and no concern of ours. I just accept they are here, I am no longer going to judge creation. I believe we are a part of an intelligently designed creation with a self correcting mechanism and all we need to do is correct ourselves.

        I see things very differently now. Not all those who have shown up in our lives are dark souls. Many take on the appearance due to their own unresolved wounding, pain and separation from love. They are no doubt as angry, embittered and feeling as misunderstood as we are. We are not walking in their shoes, we do not know the truth of them. Just as they don’t know the truth of us only we do. It is a shadow play of projections.

        Only we can halt that process once recognised. By forgiving ourselves for all we’ve been through can we truly forgive others. It is an act of love that defies judgment. When we bring the focus back onto us and deal with us and our own emotions we show up differently to others.

        When we fully own our own emotions knowing the only thing we have control over is ourselves and our own emotions and we stop projecting our shadow (unhealed parts of us) onto others then we do soften. We soften in our being and open our hearts and we start showing up differently. This is the ripple effect we need at this time. We need to work in harmony with life not in resistance to it. Judgement is resistance.

        From this point in time I cease all judgement. I will allow people to be who they want to be and have a right to be without expectation or guarantee of behavioral outcome. If I do not like the situation I find myself in I have the power to change it by removing my energy from it.

        Thank you for your reply Sydney I can see you have softened, it shows. I sincerely hope your situation resolves for you in the best way possible and I have a feeling it will :-

        Bright blessings to you……….

      3. I am so happy for you, Sidney. My vulnerable narc older sister probably wants to have a relationship ship with me now and I really don’t care one way or the other. And though my intent isn’t to leave her with the impression that I don’t care, that is likely what will happen. And for a narcissist that’s pretty harsh.

        Doesn’t it feel great to let it all go? It’s been a great training for any rejection I might go through in old age. It’ll be much easier to process the fact that the offender isn’t worth my energy and move forward.

  15. BTOV

    I don’t have a metabolism problem – I had hypokalemia when I was going through CPTSD but that was nearly 2 years ago. It was before I even found this blog. I treated myself realizing it was hypokalemia thanks to Dr Google with grapefruit, bananas and potatoes. I had an abundance of grapefruit at the time luckily because I doubt I would have been bothered going shopping for them back then. But then again we have an abundance of this in Oz. Might be a bit different in winter in the US and bananas are over rated as sources or potassium anyway.

    I’m right out of that situation now well and truly but I am no stranger to potassium. Heart palpitations can be a sign of many different things. I only suggested that kat may have a potassium deficiency that’s all. It could be any number of things.

    1. BTOV, Eudoxia – I hadn’t thought of embracing those scared, uncomfortable feelings, that’s a different perspective. Its even hard for me to say all the things I have said, it took courage for me to do that. I always feel I am revealing too much about myself – like I need to hide. It fits into the schema categories.
      As for the heart palps, I did an echocardiogram and have a appt. with a cardiologist, it takes a long time to get in, not until towards the end of April. Anyways, they found a have mild to moderate mitral valve regurgitation – mild is fairly common but moderate is something they want to keep an eye on, at least according to my primary doctor, I will know more when I go to the cardiologist. But that may not be causing the heart palps. My primary thinks it is anxiety, within a short amount of time my daughters husband committed suicide – I was there when he did it at their house, then my ex, my kids “Dad” died, it was hard on my daughter and of course I had a lot of emotional turmoil as well, and then my Mom died recently. So she thinks it is stress related because my other tests haven’t showed up any other problems. I also had some really bad allergies last year that I think wore my body down, I started taking a lot of supplements and a new probiotic and working on my gut health and so far so good. Thanks for asking, I really try and take good care of myself – food, exercise and all. I feel blessed to be able to do that, a lot of people can’t.
      I asked my doctor about adrenal fatigue and she said that my adrenals are functioning well because they are producing too much cortisol as a response to the anxiety and causing the palpitations. I like my doctor, but as a whole but I don’t think the conventional doctors really try to get to the root causes. I had to ask for the echocardiogram, she didn’t originally order that. If I had the funds I would go to a naturopath, they try to find the causes instead of automatically prescribing drugs.

      1. Kat,

        Its good you are getting things, however, you are absolutely right in whom you decide to entrust those inner feelings with. Even here on this blog the contents are for all the world to see and in truth are owned by your web server.

        You are right about starting with the gut. If the gut isn’t healthy and properly breaking down what we intake you are losing important nutrients you need to function. Adrenal fatigue is not an accepted medical condition by many in the health field.

        You know your body better than anyone, if you feel things are going on, then go for it. I have been treating myself for over 10 years and do have the support of my docs. In fact a very close friend is a nurse practitioner and discuss many of these things. Then I have several others in the medical field who are doing the same as. My in more involved as I make my own tinctures from plants I harvest.

        I have had excellent results in treating myself his area of my health. I think is great you are being proactive in recovering your health.

        Kat, I think it was a wonderful gesture of humanity in being to minister to your X. I would do the same thing. It isn’t about how he felt, it is about how you feel. All of these life experiences can be integrated to make you into a better person. Its not always an easy process, it seems though you are the right path.

        If you have those gut feelings and feel uncomfortable your inner you is warning you. I always heed my gut and then pray about it, usually and answer will come. Its, usually, wait, no or yes. This has served me well.

        You are doing an amazing job, keep it up and keep going forward. Kat, we had 8 in my family, know what its like and I was the second oldest and a girl. Oh, what mess… All the siblings are a piece of work.

        Its a beautiful day and I am going to try to make the best of it. Kat. enjoy the sunshine, you have a lot of goodness and beauty in you, your going to be OK. I wished I could do more to help.

        1. BTOV, about the adrenal fatigue, they don’t seem to diagnose it unless its at one extreme or the other and being proactive about it is where its at. I do have a very good book that showed me the right supplements for it, but mental health and anxiety reduction is so important too. The tinctures I have not heard of, that sounds interesting and I have heard of a lot of natural treatments. You have been a huge help, more than you know and an added plus is your belief in God is as mine is and so your focus is the same . I read all the comments from everyone and I have learned so much in a short time. . If I keep at it and keep it in prayer, I can make the progress and the changes I want to see with Gods help and direction. I really appreciate your encouraging words, you have a gift for that. Great advice about prayer, I am learning to be more consistent about it, its such a blessing when I do.

          1. Kat,

            Thank you for your kind compliments. As I said before, all the gifts I have are truly from God. My faith in Jesus, his strength and words, his promises, the psalms and proverbs along with prayer are what has helped me all these years to persevere. Hold onto your faith, you have a gift too, you will see.

            Keep posting, I and others are more than willing to share with you.
            Get Dr. Simons book the Judas Syndrome, I will think of others too, since you said you stay in prefer to stay with Christian authors.

            You are a great journey, in the end will have found all the blessings, the biggest and best is at the end.

          2. BTOV, I am definitely ordering the Judas Syndrome book, and if you can think of other Christian books about recovering from childhood trauma that would be great. I read a Tim LaHaye book called “why you act the way you do” , which talked about the four temperaments. The philosophy itself dates back to Hippocrates but to me it makes it no less valid. I identified myself immediately, I am so much in one category, not much of a blend. Business’s use the same idea in theory to assess future employees or present employees to get them into positions where they can excel. Its also known by other names, like the Myers Briggs test. I think that’s a great book. It really helped me to understand my temperament and what my pitfalls and the strengths are. It answered a lot of my questions. And it does it all while focusing on God’s Word and how to incorporate it to deal with weaknesses in the individuals temperament.

      2. kat

        Good grief! That’s a lot of grief and stress to go through in a short time period no wonder you’ve got heart palpitations. You are sounding quite settled and stable now though – are you okay emotionally?

        I had pretty similar when I had mine, my mother died between both narc episodes in a period of less then 5 months (an I had family betrayal to deal with as well). It was one hit after another after another. While it was all going on my son was in an out of hospital after having a brain tumor debulked and had all sorts of life threatening complications, his shunt failed twice.

        After mum died I met narc 2 who swept me off my feet then promptly discarded me so I went into full blown CPTSD and over adrenalised but also had hypokalemia. At that stage I also had suicide ideation I was at total breaking point. I was at the bottom of the pit for the second time in my life – first time it was my half brother and there was a suicide around that. Each time I’ve had narc come into my life someone has died.

        Half the time I’m amazed we even survive trauma like this – it’s like how much can a person really take. It takes us to the very edge of the point of no return – when death looks better than living it’s the bottom of the barrel and it’s twice now for me and there will not be a third.

        I’ve invested too much time in repairing myself and raising myself from the practically dead to start again. I am not going back to that situation ever. The last 6 months for me has been full on with upleveling myself so I safeguard my soul and it’s working for me.

        But I’m starting to bounce back and better than before. I’m finally at the stage where I can say I’m grateful for the experience because if it weren’t for them I would not be the person I am today. But as these experiences damn near killed me I am firm in my undertakings to close any gaps that may allow these dark souls to hook into me.

        I’m doing it through a full body, mind, soul integration process. Our bodies really do keep the score and will lead us right to those wounds and nobody else can fix this for me – it’s my journey. We have to listen to our own hearts in this respect and trust in our own inner guidance.

        You sound in pretty good shape considering kat and I can totally relate to what you’ve been through. Nothing like once bitten twice shy to really hit home and it often takes us to near death before we finally get it. For me it’s opened up whole new level of consciousness awareness and a much deeper form of compassion. I see things very differently now than I did 6 months ago and it’s improving daily. I hope it’s the same for you.

        The only way out is through and sometimes we have to lose it all to get it all :-

        1. Eudoxia, sounds like you have been through the grinder too. When Narcs are around a lot of bad things happen. I know what you mean, even deaths occur. It never leads to anything good, only bad. Emotionally I am pretty balanced I think. There are just some real changes I want to make and its going to require consistent work to get there, and I can’t allow myself to chicken out before I get there. I can make some excuses for myself sometimes that I can almost believe, but I know deep down they are fear based and I need to be bold and face up to my fears. For a long time I didn’t even want anything to do with men, so kudos to you that you kept trying. Probably why I’m still single. You are courageous and you are seeing the benefits of doing what is very difficult, that’s encouraging me to keep going. A lot of people give up and say I’ve done enough, I don’t want to keep working on this stuff, and maybe they have reached a point they are good with, but I have not reached a point where I feel I can live life fully, not when I am still caught up in the rejection stuff. I know when I can handle that better that I will be where I want to be.

      3. Kat, I get palpitations so bad that my heart will flutter like mad for about 10 seconds and then come to a full stop. Then about 5 seconds later it will start up up again with a bang. Any stimulant will cause this to happen and though it feels like there is something terribly wrong I am used to it and when it happens I just find it interesting. But I have to really watch decongestants for colds and other things you wouldn’t think would cause a problem. Any health preparations with cola nuts, caffeine obviously and things like green tea, too.

        As for your adrenals, your doctor probably meant you were having a normal adrenal reaction to extreme stress. But still, you want to really watch stress because constant stress is hard on the adrenals.

        You have probably had your thyroid checked, if not you should. Nervousness can be caused by hyperthyroid. (Not hypOthyroid–that one makes you sleepy)

        1. LisoO, that sounds kind of unnerving, but the doctor says they are benign, mine are like constantly throughout the day but especially at night, a doctor told me its because the heart slows down at night and the palpitations are more evident. Unfortunately chocolate is a no-no too, the caffeine in it. I was told exercise helps, and it does temporarily, I am getting used to the feeling too but I wish they would go away. If the cardiologist says my echocardiogram results are not causing the palps, I am going to go to an endocrinologist just to rule out thyroid, etc. Three of my sisters all take thyroid meds but I never have. Theres a cardiologist on you tube, that talks about palps, Dr. Sanjay Gupta at York Cardiology in the UK. When I was really nervous about it I listened to some of his videos and it helped ease my mind.

          1. Hi Kat,

            Mine are benign too. That’s why I find them interesting when they happen. If it was all the time, it would be awful. Sorry you have to go through that! And an endocrinologist sounds like a good idea.

            Is your blood sugar okay? Been checked for low blood sugar?

          2. Hi Lisa,
            Its good they’re benign, that’s a relief . No blood sugar check, my doctor really didn’t order any tests, seems like she was so sure its anxiety, that’s why I decided I would push it further. She’s normally pretty thorough it seems so it surprises me. I did have my free physical last year and had some blood tests done and everything was ok. I have had the palps about two and a half months, but I never had them before this. I’ll be glad when my cardiologist appt. finally comes up – almost a 3 month wait!

          3. Kat,

            I don’t know how the reply work, any I was going to ask you if you have read any of WC. Lewis’s book, they are good. Another woman, Melodie Beatty write for people coming out recovery. It a daily book and she speak about positives to do every day.

            I will look up some good books for you in my library, if you suggest some that would be great.

            Kat are you also from somewhere in UK or are you from the states. JC is 1 stat away.

          4. BTOV, I have never heard of W.C. Lewis, but I know who Melodie Beatty is, I think she wrote “Codependent No More”. That one I read years ago, I do remember identifying with it. I live in the States. I ordered a book today, I go to ebay and buy used ones, I can get them usually for 5 bucks or less, I ordered one written by Derek Prince about healing from rejection, it had really good reviews. From what I know, the Christian approach is about finding my identity in God, not in what others think of me and not even what I think of me, not in my abilities or circumstances or anything but what God has to say about me in His Word. I think I need to do some memorization because I am still stuck. I don’t know why I haven’t been able to make more progress than this.

          5. Kat,

            Don’t force anything, in time it will come to you . Be patient, this is the message, truly, you had the courage to go thew it and make peace. I believe you are on the right path, I wish you were closer. I know I could help you.

            Right now I am seeing a neuropsychologist , he said its about one letting go and facing truth. He said in his field he was glad to say he has several successful patients. I am one. I have down days and then I have to regroup my energy. Know, god is good…..

  16. Eudoxia,

    Predators sense death, it seems and are drawn to people who are alone and grieving. I am so sorry you have had to go through such misery and so delighted you have found answers.

    The psychopath who targeted me was preoccupied with death. It was really weird. Talk about necrophilic!

  17. Eudox,

    I love this! Amen sister.
    “From this point in time I cease all judgement. I will allow people to be who they want to be and have a right to be without expectation or guarantee of behavioral outcome. If I do not like the situation I find myself in I have the power to change it by removing my energy from it.:

    1. You bet Lucy. Took me a while to be able to get myself to this stage though. I got the below on Thursday night from a site I don’t recall ever visisting and it was very timely. You’ve read The Four Agreements and this is not from that book but it’s a Toltec Blessing………….

      Ancient Toltec Blessing

      I release my parents from the feeling that they have already failed me. I release my children from the need to bring pride to me; that they may write their own ways according to their hearts, that whisper all the time in their ears.

      I release my partner from the obligation to complete myself. I do not lack anything, I learn with all beings all the time. I thank my grandparents and forefathers who have gathered so that I can breathe life today.

      I release them from past failures and unfulfilled desires, aware that they have done their best to resolve their situations within the consciousness they had at that moment. I honor you, I love you and I recognize you as innocent.

      I am transparent before your eyes, so they know that I do not hide or owe anything other than being true to myself and to my very existence, that walking with the wisdom of the heart, I am aware that I fulfill my life project, free from invisible and visible family loyalties that might disturb my Peace and Happiness, which are my only responsibilities.

      I renounce the role of being one who unites or fulfills the expectations of others. Learning through, and only through, LOVE, I bless my essence, my way of expressing, even though somebody may not understand me.

      I understand myself, because I alone have lived and experienced my history; because I know myself, I know who I am, what I feel, what I do and why I do it.

      I respect and approve myself.

      I honour the Divinity in me and in you. We are free.”

      This ancient blessing was translated from Nahuatl, spoken in Mexico.

  18. Speaking of health and symptoms of stress, since my divorce issues are over, the tightness in my chest is gone. The spasms in the rib cage area has lessened. The worrying 24/7 is gone. When one is under attack by the CDN it is constant. It seems when undergoing chronic stress situations, such as living with a CDN or other types of abusive personality types, as long as you’re in that situation that isn’t anything one can do to make that stress go away, because the stress is THAT PERSON. You’d have to be brain dead to not feel the effects of the stressors put on.

  19. My heart really goes out to people who are well and truly stuck with an abusive individual. My father wasn’t nearly as abusive as some parents but the wearing down of my soul and trashing of my confidence from years of insults, thrashings, etc…sure left a mark. I thank God I developed a ,”don’t mess with me,” persona and had some negative experiences with men but was never really abused by anyone.

    But…like Eudoxia I was targeted much later in life when family were sick and or dying. The psychopath is always there ‘to help’!

    1. Lisa

      I was certainly don’t “mess with me” for a long time. It held me in good stead during my career given I was in a male dominated environment – mining and construction. That’s hard core and I was in quite senior roles too particularly later down the track. I have no problem telling it like it is in industry but you have to be like that or you get eaten alive lol. I toned it down a bit on the home front but I was still a pretty tough cookie and no nonsense.

      We tone down our soft side and hide our vulnerability. Makes it hard for people to really get to know you. I’ve balanced that out now and it’s a much better place to be in. Before that I was over boundaried then when I did the first round of self work I ended up with insufficient boundaries and became too soft and a pathological fixer and became too nice. I went from one extreme to the other. That’s when I got jumped on. Not anymore :-

      The more we try to fix things the more fuel we give narcs to harm us with so I’ve shut that door now and everything’s cruising a long just fine. I’ve finally got myself to the point of emotional non attachment and non judgement.

      It’s actually interesting watching them from the sidelines in action. They naturally gravitate to wounded people and they soak it up. They are so easily manipulated. I was inclined to dive in head first and fix these situations before but not anymore and this was up until fairly recently. It’s kind of amusing now and quite awesome.

      I’m watching the intricacies of life weaving in and out of people’s lives creating a tapestry of ever changing events. It’s like watching evolution unfold on TV – it’s just that it’s reality and it’s beautiful. But the trick is non attachment and that took me some while to get.

      I remember Oshi was being interviewed once and somebody asked him what was the first thing he did when he finally woke up and got it. He said he laughed and I’m there laughing right with them. It just took a bit of time and a few psychopaths to get me there LOL……………………………and I woudln’t trade it for anything.

      So bring on the clowns………………….

  20. As one who has endured over three years of abuse by the X husband, the malignant Narc, this is what I have to say as far as treatment and healing. First off, this site and Dr. Simon’s articles have been a tremendous help as have stories of others and their insight, experience and tactics on how to handle the CDN in your life.
    And I do see some people are focused on healing with counselors, programs, digging, peeling layers, and even going back to childhood. Everyone’s circumstances and histories are unique. Myself, as far as my history since childhood, I don’t give a rat’s ass. What’s happened has happened, I’m done with it, it’s history, and I’ve moved on. So what if I’m not my perfect self. What is that anyway? We’ve all got ghosts and hangups and bad traits. So what. I want to live my life. Why hyperfocus on the crap in my mind of events that’s happened, events that are past? Where will it get me? It gets me back to the past. Why waste that energy? Maybe if one is struggling from past horrendous abuse do they need to dig. I don’t know. I feel that at some point in your life you have to live for the moment, the day, the hour, and let the past be what it is, the past. Fortunately, my dark days are over, the divorce issues final and I’ve dealt with that bad deck for long enough, it harmed me, I suffered tremendously, but it’s over. And I’m joyous. And I’m ready to live life with a renewed source of energy and enthusiasm. Yes I’ll have bumps along the way, of course, that’s life, but this time not with the leach attached to my back.

    Healing is a constant.

    1. Lucy,

      Excellent post. To the point and all so simple and yes Restore. I agree unless one is severely damaged why go back to the past and dig in every crack and cranny. Yes, its an individual choice. I was talking with my mother the other night and she brought up some ugly scenario from the past I had forgotten about. Its something how you can see a clear picture of the event in your mind.

      I said: Mom, that happened 55 years ago, its done, its over. I don’t want to think about the negative, I want to stay focused on the here and now and be happy, be positive and make every moment we have left of life to count.

      I told my mom to forget the negative,we can’t change the past, we can embrace it as a gift and use the experiences to be a better person. This is the for all of us to not lose another moment of our precious being sucked into the past. Never forget it, use it to learn, to change, to love, use and all the knowledge you have to help others one the way who struggling.

      I am grateful to all who gave me something of themselves, their positive energy, a helping hand, positive insight, this is how I got to be where I am at today. I know I will have difficult days where I struggle, however, I can tap into the wonderful, positive memories that I intend to keep filling mind with to lift me up. I can tell the positives continue to multiply if I use to my advantage.

      I love what you said here, it is so true…….

      “”my dark days are over, the divorce issues final and I’ve dealt with that bad deck for long enough, it harmed me, I suffered tremendously, but it’s over. And I’m joyous. And I’m ready to live life with a renewed source of energy and enthusiasm. Yes I’ll have bumps along the way, of course, that’s life, but this time not with the leach attached to my back.

      Healing is a constant.””

      Healing is constant and with it comes JOY”:-) 🙂

    2. Lucy, I agree, there is no perfect self, just one that is able to live life more fully. Sounds like you are there. I think if we can live our lives without being hung up by some past emotional hurt that’s holding us back, that’s great and that’s the best place to be. Healing is a constant – that’s a good thought, we live our lives and heal along the way and that’s the reality and there’s nothing wrong with that for sure.

      1. My wonderful son with stage 4 lung cancer married an immature “child” she never wanted to work. She showed jealousy rage entitlement. She stole thousands from me turned people against me abused my granddaughters and neglected my son & her kids. The authorities dcf and police failed to see beyond her narrisistic ways – for lack of insight or education. She is a cahmelian, snake, empty souled, opportunist waiting to gobble up what she thinks she’s entitled to. No one owes her a living.

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