For various reasons, readers trying to access the very popular article that featured the “Confessions of a Covert-Aggressive Personality” will find themselves re-directed to another article on covert-aggression. But inasmuch as the other article does not adequately address the important content of the original article, look for a brand new article on the topic to be posted in the next 48 hours. The new article will feature an expanded discussion of the important issues and will include even more examples that illustrate how you can know for sure that most manipulators know exactly what they’re doing when they engage in their tactics. Look for it in the next couple of days! It’s titled They Know What They’re Doing.
Of course they know what they are doing! They’re calculating, deliberate, premeditative (I think that’s a word)… No doubt about it. It’s accepting it that is so difficult and mind-boggling. Because we’ve been led to believe we’re dealing with someone different for so long. Cannot wait for this article!
I am dealing with a couple who are manipulative right now, have been for 20 years. Our daughter who favors my husband over me, using favoritism as a tool to demean me in many covert ways. She sends him a birthday card with her and her husband’s name along with all the children and when I receive one it only has her and her husband’s name. One year she sent mother’s day flowers with only her name on it, but everyone signed their names to a father’s day card for my husband.
My son in law came right out and told me I should never speak to men about spiritual matters and told me he didn’t respect me. Then a few years later a rebellious son of ours ended up in jail and proclaimed the same thing in exactly the same words that our son in law used, after having spent a lot of time with our son in law.
Over the years when these people I mentioned were doing mean things and living bad lives I corrected them, explaining why they needed to make changes in their lives. This made them very angry, I became a target while my husband has been elevated to god status, he can do no wrong and I can do no right. Over the years my instructions to my children ended when they left home except in a few experiences where they were deeply messing up, then I spoke up, while my husband remained silent.
I have been a target in terms of extended family members also, who had contact with these covertly aggressive people. I have to admit that there is a question in my mind as to possible gossip against me through out the family.
There have been many little things, over the past 20 years that were subtle acts to demean and negate me. One example is one time when I invited them all over for dinner. I had prepared a nice dinner, set a beautiful table with name cards and fancy flatware and dishes, only to be told when they arrived that they are not fancy people and wouldn’t feel comfortable with all this. I ignored the insult and continued to serve the meal as though I didn’t hear it.
These are only a couple of examples, but could be multiplied by hundreds of little insults and verbal abuses that I have endured continually. I can’t remember a time when I was validated in any way by any of these people.
It wasn’t until recently, the past two years that I began to realize that I was a target by narcissists. I am grateful to you and others who are addressing this matter because is helps to know that we are not the ugly witches that the narcissist wants us to believe we are, but rather they are attacking us, devaluing us to remain superior.
Thank you for all you have done, it makes a huge difference when we know what we are dealing with.
Gwendolyn,
There are few things that do not go well…
“I had prepared a nice dinner… only to be told when they arrived that they are not fancy people and wouldn’t feel comfortable with all this. I ignored the insult and continued to serve the meal as though I didn’t hear it.”
In my opinion, if I want to make other happy, I will need to do things that other person likes. I cannot do things that I think other should like, and then expect others to appreciate them.
“My son in law came right out and told me I should never speak to men about spiritual matters and told me he didn’t respect me.”
Part 1 is very fair enough, except that one can talk to men about spiritual matters, but not to every men.
I do not know exact circumstances that you live in. But, these are just few things that stood out from your post, & a single post is very limited amount of data.
When we see a continually picky attitude directed specifically at us, while others who do the same things we do are praised for what they do, it is a clue that we are being targeted for abuse.
20 years ago I offered to make a quilt for our daughter for her wedding, she turned me down telling me she didn’t want one. Her new husband’s aunts made two quilts for them that they raved about and enjoyed.
Several years later our daughter said she wanted me to make her a quilt.
When I went through my patterns and handed her some to choose from she acted irritated, rolling her eyes and reluctantly choosing one.
It has been a pattern for her to need to be the one in control. When I offered something she didn’t want it, but when she decided then she was ready to have a quilt. For me to offer a choice, in her mind made me in control, so she had to act irritated at it. This has been a pattern for many things, even as a child, but she became worse when she married a narcissist.
Andy said this: “In my opinion, if I want to make other happy, I will need to do things that other person likes. I cannot do things that I think other should like, and then expect others to appreciate them.”
What Andy doesn’t know is that my son in law and daughter would go to very fancy restaurants for their anniversary and stay in expensive hotels on vacation, so the assertion that they weren’t fancy people was not true, but was being used as an excuse to negate what I was doing.
These types of things have happened nearly every time we have been together. I was once told my nail polish was what an old lady wears. I never hear others criticize nail polish on their mothers, it’s rude and completely silly. Since nail polish really doesn’t matter, why bother to negate a personal choice when it has nothing to do with them. I could write a book on the things I have encountered continually, literally every time we have been together.
I have been told the reason my husband had a gall stone was because I didn’t feed him properly for the past 45 years. Of course my daughter does not have a medical degree, never spoke to my husband’s doctor, to know anything about his ailment, and he came out of it unscathed.
The criticisms flow continually about everything, I can expect them, I think they have contempt for me and have made a habit of doing these things.
I don’t remember one time when they complimented me or supported me in anything. There is a deliberate attempt to demean and negate me personally.
Anyone who has encountered this with narcissists will know exactly what this looks like.
Gwendolyn,
Sounds like you are surrounded by people who do not appreciate you. I am sure it will be tough life to live like that.
Apologies. I did not mean to doubt you. Instead just wanted to point out that may be you were oversensitive about small things. Just that few things that you mentioned looked normal to me that happens in every family, even in a loving family. I myself was brought up in a good family. Not everything that I did, even if I did them with good intentions, were always appreciated by others. Sometime people just did not like the things that I thought they may like. But, sometime only, I was never criticized for everything I did.
You should post here often. It helps to state things in an open forum.
It’s alright Andy your reaction is normal in normal situations. It does sound petty at first glance without more information. If the incident I shared was the only one then it would have been silly to mention it, however putting it together with many other times like this, give us a pattern. I want to add that, when I was raising children I tried to teach them to criticize anything as a guest at someone else’s house was rude, not to mention ungrateful. I have a lengthy story of my own in terms of how I was raised, as the scapegoat child in the family while my brother was the golden child. Our children were with extended family enough to pick up on this mistreatment, thinking I must have something wrong with me since others don’t like me. They too are narcissists today because others devalued me, they wanted to fit in so they adopted the same attitude. I know this sounds far fetched, but I have known others who have experienced this. You might benefit in your understanding by watching videos by “smakintosh” and “Gail Meyers.” They both show clearly how the narcissist acts and the devastating affects of their actions. Thank you for your kind response to me, I knew you just needed more information for clarity.
Gwendolyn,
Completely agree with you. Isolated incidents all sound too small to others. But, for the person suffering, it is a systematic pattern that is clearly too visible, and at the same time hard to articulate and convince others.
I agree with Lucy’s comment that if something is not working, then it is not worth continuing it. And, if something must change, then it is easiest to change yourself. One thing that helps is setting boundaries, what you ok to tolerate, and what you are not willing to tolerate from others.
Gwendolyn
Much of the topic you are discussing is on the more current topic of The Grateful Character Feels Obliged. Many of us are dealing with narcs and you may want to read through this section.
Once you are aware of their behavior and know what to expect of them – because surprisingly they have very similar traits – you’ll know how to better deal with them – or you may choose to cut them out of your life as much as possible. It’s abuse. I hope to hear more from you
Yes, I have been researching this matter of narcissism for two years and am shocked at how many people are inflicted with this disease of self love. I have watched nearly all the videos and many of the articles, not to mention having lived much of what I have seen and read. I began my research because of what I encountered all my life, knowing something wasn’t right, not realizing many people were going through these things. It has been a great help to me to learn the tactics and the mentality behind narcissism.
Gwendolyn Wehage
Andy is very so right on setting boundaries. I have found that in my past relationships the biggest problem was not setting proper boundaries. I did not learn this at all in my family of origin. So I continued the pattern I learned.
A good read is by: Dr. Henry Cloud called Boundaries. There is biblical reference in this book but if you so choose you can take from the book the tools and insight you will glean from this read. It is very good and he has written other books that are very good too.
Blessings
It’s very unhealthy when someone thinks they are the be-all, end-all measure of things, just because, even though of course someone so self-centered doesn’t think it’s a problem, no matter how damaging it’s to everyone else.
While I once read about the most extreme form, a psychopath, that such a person only respects themselves, I kinda have to wonder: Is that real self-respect? What if a person, whatever unhealthy pattern or patterns they exhibit, sees no need or can’t be bothered to develop real self-respect? If someone fancies they only respect themselves, is that a different thing?
Timothy,
It kind of like the way you think and I believe most the time you mean well and respect others. This is you makeup. Perhaps, it as difficult for them to understand you as it is for you to understand them.
However, as a society we set a standard of laws and a regard for ones neighbors and fellow man. As a society it seems we have lost many of our values and common decency for others. I think Timothy, those types know they should act within the confines or values and laws our society has set but choose to do otherwise.
In essence they are Selfish. Our society promotes selfies and selfishnes, and unbelievable greed.
Surely a truly self-respecting person would treat others with due respect? Or if another person hasn’t earned respect, then with at least reasonable civility?
Timothy,
Yes, that is how a decent mature person acts. There are many rewards in treating others with dignity and respect even though they don’t follow the same values. In doing so we maintain our dignity and we have not sunk to their level. It can be hard sometimes but it will come back ten-fold in other scenarios.
Think of the bystander you are not aware of that witnessed the exchange. You set an example of decency whereas, they have demeaned their own selves.
Timothy,
You asked several questions about my sis that has schizophrenia, she also is or was and still fights her Narcism. What is interesting she and I will have deep talks and she will tell me about her feelings and how she looked at the world and others when she was in her full blown narcism.
It will take me some time to write on this but will continue at a later date.
I can’t remember if you don’t mind was it your family member a CDN or was your experience with the CDN bullies.
Since we post regularly it is helpful to remember the details.
Thanks and Blessings.
Some of my friends say my STBX is delusional and believes his own lies. I say, no, he creates scenarios and behaviors and actions deliberately to get the end result he wants. Very calculating and anove all , cruel.
So very true Lucy. Very calculating, and cruel… to what extent people go just to attain some short-term wins.
My wife reconstructs the past so convincingly that I need to refer to my own handwritten old notes to remember things again. 😀
Any acquaintances will not have any clue. Even psychologists can fail. Only people who have known the trouble maker for a long time will side with me.
And they don’t believe their own “lies”. They are “lies”, deliberate untruths.
Lucy,
Many of them are so deep into their pathology and have told so many lies they are no longer unable to tell the lie from the truth and therefore believe the lie. That is why so many times the lies are so absurd.
In many instances they do know the difference between the truth and the lie. It is to their benefit to stick to a the lie. Ultimately one will slip up, especially the more outrageous the lie. I believe the older they get the more they forget too.
How can anyone stay on top of what is truth when one has constructed such a gigantic web. They become entangled in their own lies and fabrications, hence one could only conclude they are delusional.
AndyD,
WoW, you have to keep notes, I did that too. In fact I come across pages of what I wrote and conversations. One time it got so crazymaking ridiculous I said “wait I have to get a pen and paper, I will need to repeat that to my doctors.” As soon as I asked him to repeat the lunacy he kindly told me to forget it. I said “No you must repeat all of this, so the doctors will know how to treat me for these deficiencies, this is really serious.” Talk about someone retracting and changing their minds when someone else would hear about the conversation. Perhaps, next time for your peace of mind you will need to take up the pad and paper in hand.
It will be interesting to hear her response. See the women do the same thing. (Smile and Hugs) Its not easy, I am glad your here and receive validation.
That made me laugh. One day while confronting STBX I got out pen and paper and took notes – I was mimicking my counselor’s techniques used in marriage counseling. They change what they say so rapidly. In a strange sense I was enjoying the encounter, because I was in control of it. The extremes we’ve been through. I should never have tolerated it all to that level.
Lucy,
Many of them are so deep into their pathology and have told so many lies they are no longer unable to tell the lie from the truth and therefore believe the lie. That is why so many times the lies are so absurd.
In many instances they do know the difference between the truth and the lie. It is to their benefit to stick to a the lie. Ultimately one will slip up, especially the more outrageous the lie. I believe the older they get the more they forget too.
How can anyone stay on top of what is truth when one has constructed such a gigantic web. They become entangled in their own lies and fabrications, hence one could only conclude they are delusional.
“How can anyone stay on top of what is truth when one has constructed such a gigantic web.”
They can’t. And, after a time they don’t!
If their version of truth today does not happen to match with yesterday’s version of truth. Then, it is simple. Yesterday never happened. Or, I do not recall it properly. Or, I am twisting the truth by relying on my diary entries! So on… it is just another variant of what Dr. Simon’s book In Sheep Clothing says about denying vs denial.
And, funniest part is that they know! Just like the blog say. They know! 😀
Andy,
In some cases they really do believe the lie. Perhaps, deep down in their sub conscience they know but on the surface their reality is the lie. At times the truth may surface but is to painful and they are not willing to take hold of responsibility. I am dealing with a few like this and what I am saying is substantiated by doctors.
This is why it is so important to call them on their behavior. When it becomes to intolerable then one must detach. One must let them fall and hit bottom and leave them to their demented minds. In all their behavior is still a choice. I am speaking of the CDN and CDMN.
And, funniest part is that they know!
Just like the blog says.
Andy,
I would tend to agree in most cases, but in some cases the pathology is such that splitting occurs and other factors within the psych of the individual are also at play. In some cases and it can be difficult to diagnose on a layman’s observation without the diagnosis of qualified medical professional.
Consideration should also be given to schizophrenia which many times can be manifest and not diagnosed in the CDN. Andy, when I have more time I will try to get back to this subject.
Yes, for the most part the majority of posts are dealing with what Dr. Simon described. There comes a point though when the mind is so diseased the lies do become the truth. Sadly, I buried my father who was one of these individuals that truly did believe so many of his lies. He told the lies for so long they became his reality. Believe me distortion does become reality for many.
Perhaps, the ones you have dealt with have not reached this extreme.
My STBX has hit bottom, but still continues on lying lying lying. He is so deep into living a bad, ugly life, so ugly he doesn’t want others to know what he is up to. I’m so angry at him but at the same time it saddens me. It’s so disturbing to witness – how a once okay person can turn so bad and mean spirited. A lost soul – flailing in his own filth.
Linda,
Your STBX has not yet hit bottom, if he is lying, lying, and then lying more.
My wife is currently lying, lying, and then lying more. I haven’t seen her in months, and currently I have sent her a divorce ultimatum. I believe she has not yet hit the bottom.
There may be a difference in other things that your STBX is doing, but I seriously doubt if he has hit the bottom.
Haven’t followed this convo so closely, but I believe, BTOV, you said at one point that there are different bottoms before the rock bottom, the final threshold after which someone, character-disordered or not, reaches that point of self-disgust, gets so fed up that it’s unthinkable to go back to old ways of being. Perhaps you didn’t say it quite that way, but I think the thought was the same.
Timothy,
You have an understanding of what I was saying. Bottoms are different for everyone. Many times what we would think, should be a bottom is just a hard knock for some. The innate stubbiness of many CD may be so ingrained they condemn themselves to wallow at the bottom forever.
For many CD the adverse and destructive attention feeds their narcissisim. I have seen a come to Jesus moment with my sister. She is willing and trusts me enough to confide about the destructive and selfish thought process involving her narcissim. I will try to write about this later.
I believe in many respects you must use extreme caution dealing with the CDNSP, any information you give them can and will be used against you. They also, become more educated, being the chameleon and changing their techniques to fool one.
I am hoping to hear about productive and positive approaches in Dr. Simon new book which I should be getting any day now. Cant wait to read it.
Andy, I apologize I couldn’t remember your circumstances, I know how difficult this must be for you. I will keep all of you in my prayers.
Blessings
When we see a continually picky attitude directed specifically at us, while others who do the same things we do are praised for what they do, it is a clue that we are being targeted for abuse.
20 years ago I offered to make a quilt for our daughter for her wedding, she turned me down telling me she didn’t want one. Her new husband’s aunts made two quilts for them that they raved about and enjoyed.
Several years later our daughter said she wanted me to make her a quilt. When I went through my patterns and handed her some to choose from she acted irritated, rolling her eyes and reluctantly choosing one.
It has been a pattern for her to need to be the one in control. When I offered something she didn’t want it, but when she decided then she was ready to have a quilt. For me to offer a choice, in her mind made me in control, so she had to act irritated at it. This has been a pattern for many things, even as a child, but she became worse when she married a narcissist.
Andy said this: “In my opinion, if I want to make other happy, I will need to do things that other person likes. I cannot do things that I think other should like, and then expect others to appreciate them.”
What Andy doesn’t know is that my son in law and daughter would go to very fancy restaurants for their anniversary and stay in expensive hotels on vacation, so the assertion that they weren’t fancy people was not true, but was being used as an excuse to negate what I was doing.
These types of things have happened nearly every time we have been together. I was once told my nail polish was what an old lady wears. I never hear others criticize nail polish on their mothers, it’s rude and completely silly. Since nail polish really doesn’t matter, why bother to negate a personal choice when it has nothing to do with them. I could write a book on the things I have encountered continually, literally every time we have been together.
I have been told the reason my husband had a gall stone was because I didn’t feed him properly for the past 45 years. Of course my daughter does not have a medical degree, never spoke to my husband’s doctor, to know anything about his ailment, and he came out of it unscathed.
The criticisms flow continually about everything, I can expect them, I think they have contempt for me and have made a habit of doing these things.
I don’t remember one time when they complimented me or supported me in anything. There is a deliberate attempt to demean and negate me personally. Anyone who has encountered this with narcissists will know exactly what this looks like.
Gwen,
You are being emotionally abused. Do you ever call her on it, ask her why she feels the need to demean you? And actually you should not have to constantly defend yourself against emotional abuse.
I also have trouble with my adult daughter. She does not treat me with respect. She thinks because I’m her mother she can treat me however she likes and that I’ll always be there to take it? On her birthday there was an incident where I felt disrespected and taken for granted so I cancelled her birthday dinner. I said don’t come over. I don’t want to be around you. She could not believe it. She says “But I’m already over it and I thought you would be too!” I sent a strong statement. Then she tried to manipulate the situation by saying things like “what kind of mother would do that” blah blah blah.
It’s sad our own daughters don’t cherish us. I cherished my mother and would have never even had thoughts of emotional cruelty.
I now understand how families are pulled apart. Just cause their family does not mean we should tolerate abuse – of any kind. It’s not a free Abuse Ticket!
You seem to be the blame for everything in that family. That’s too bad. You’re probably the one holding them all together. There is no satisfaction in being in such an environment. I’d stay clear of it as much as possible. You’re not appreciated. Screw it.