Manipulative Characters
Manipulative characters are covert-aggressors. This remarkable insight inspired my book In Sheep’s Clothing. And, as I’ve written before, such characters can make you feel crazy. (See, for example: Manipulators Can Make You Feel Crazy.) Such characters can make you feel crazy. In your gut, you know something is not right with them. But somehow they make you feel irrational for thinking so.
The “Gaslighting” Effect
I’ve written before on the “gaslighting” effect. Some recent writers have dubbed gaslighting a tactic. But in my books and online articles I explain that it’s more often the effect of many manipulation tactics.
For a moment, consider the tactic of rationalization. I also call this tactic excuse making or justification. For a long time, professionals considered this an unconscious defense mechanism. But it mostly represents a person’s deliberate, conscious attempt to sway you. Manipulative characters count on your conscientiousness and good nature to accomplish that. In your heart, you might believe what they did was cruel, selfish, or callous. But they offer a plausible enough sounding justification for it. Then you begin to wonder. Now, it’s not that they don’t know what they did is wrong. If they didn’t absolutely know most people would find it wrong, they wouldn’t seek to justify it. But to get you to defer to their way of seeing things, they have to build a strong case. If they do a convincing enough job, you end up feeling like the crazy one. Bingo! Manipulated!
Understanding Manipulative Characters
I’ve given hundreds of interviews over the years. Some of these interviews really stand out. And that’s largely because of the background of the interviewer. Below, I’ve pasted the YouTube link to one such interview. In it I describe what covert-aggression is and how folks get manipulated. And we talk about the gaslighting effect. I think it worthy of your viewing. And I certainly appreciate you sharing it, too. You never know who might need to hear just what we talk about in this interview!
Tidbits
Character Matters Sunday Feb 11, 2018 will feature a rebroadcast of an earlier program.
I’ll be resuming a discussion of character formation issues in upcoming posts.
Ateam, the pin the tail on the narc game is played out.
You can call names, play head games, lie, bully and intimidate, feign ignorance and play the victim, but the fact is you’re just running from the truth. You don’t like the spotlight shining on your behavior. You know the truth.The real problem is you can’t tell the truth. You like toying with or attacking people that come here unaware of your tactics.
The truth is simple. You like making people leave a place that doesn’t belong to you.
You don’t have the power to do that to me.
I spoke directly and honestly to JC, who is a grown woman currently treating her elderly parents like crap. You’re egging her on with destructive advice.
You twisted what I said, and asked me to apologize for it.
No.
We’re going to coexist.
If you’re interested in real growth, there’s a lot of information coming up that can help us all.
How you approach that opportunity with your behavior is on you.
Truth and love.
Dr. Simon,
I’m sorry people that have been here for years can’t apologize for the way your blog’s comment section has been treated. Please call me out if I seem unstable, irreverent, cruel, narcissistic or manipulative. You’ve got the credentials and experience to do that. I’m open to professional help, though I talk with and serve a truly great Counsellor. Shift happens, feeling better by the minute focusing on truth, love and my own behavior. Your guidance is powerful and appreciated. Great video! Learning and loving it.
Much respect.
You called me out Dr. Simon. I do apologize. Confrontation is not easy, I did let it fly instead of keeping it constructive. Name calling has no place here. It was irreverent to say the least. I was wrong.
To the Ateam, you’re teaching me a lot. I’m thankful for that. I hate the lies, manipulations and cruelty that’s gone on here. But I refuse to hate you. I am sorry for calling names. No one should be disrespected, even during confrontation. I was wrong. I will learn from my mistakes.
What I have to work on is not allowing myself to be baited. It’s really important to me to let a manipulator know that I get what they are doing. But communicating that to a manipulator just affords them an opportunity to come back at me from a different angle.
If possible it’s best to just walk away.
And I think, too I am more aware now when I rationalize myself. It’s a common practise not confined to just CD’s. They just take it much much farther.
LisaO,
Following worked for me: smile or grin or outright loud laugh.
I think it was bit natural to me. My gut feeling told me that other person is indulging in something fishy, and my first automatic reaction was a smile… “I know you” kind of smile, even though I had little idea what was actually happening. I had in fact smiled in response to threat… “yeah sure, go ahead” kind of smile.
But, I think one better be in strong position to counter escalation when laughing and waving off a narcissist. Maybe being good 4 inch taller than opponent helped in my case.
Hey AndyD – good to see you :-
“But, I think one better be in strong position to counter escalation when laughing and waving off a narcissist”.
I’ll drink to that Andy!
Cheers
Hi Andy,
I had a very strange interaction with a local retailer a few months back. The first three times I went to her store, she would say something snide as soon as I walked through the door.
I thought she must be joking so I just smiled at her and maybe chuckled a bit. She didn’t get a rise out of me, because I wasn’t interpreting her intent properly. This probably angered her a lot. Had I interpreted her intent properly the first time, I would have just walked out of her store.
The forth time, same, but she was more insistently snide and again I just smiled, thinking she must be having a hard day. Then, a few minutes later I asked her a question and she was so unambiguously nasty my jaw darned near hit the floor. I realized all at once that she had been intentionally insulting me all along and I was livid.
There was a wee bit of an escalation there, to put it mildly. Most people don’t like being humiliated. But to me, humiliation with intent represents an existential threat and I not only anger but become panicky as well.
Why was she snide? Why didn’t she like you? Also treating clients like this s very stupid from a business perspective. You can easily leave a negative review on several sites on the basis of that behaviour alone.
Snidism,
I followed up on her and found out her boutique is a vanity project and was for sale when I last visited.
She does not have an online presence, possibly due to fear of being outed online.
The last time I was there I told her I loved her place and asked her if she might help a friend pick out some clothes in the near future because I wouldn’t have time and my young friend might need some help. This appeared to be the straw that broke the camel’s back!??
While checking her out, after the fact, I heard some amazing tales. Two young girls in her shop were chased out for “stealing.” When their mother asked what the girls stole she told the Mom they hadn’t stolen anything, “but they might.”
Snidism,
Your first post here appears to be a bit of a cross examination. I hope this is not the case.
Lisa
On point – but off topic – I’ve just been harvesting lemons due to “weather wierding” my lemons have come on 2 months early and are getting mobbed by fruit fly due to the inordinate heat.
I’ve just put 7 jars of Moroccan Preserved Lemons in the fridge. I’m going to request my son get me one of those Middle Eastern cooking apparatus for Mother’s Day. Seeing it’s coming up relatively soon. I just can’t remember what they are called must be having a seniors moment lol
LisaO
I too wish I’d recognize being baited but sooner. But when I do recognize it I remind myself it serves me no purpose to defend myself to a CD manipulator. I wasted enough years needlessly defending myself throughout the marriage. He’s now out of my life and I’ll be damned if I waste time to defend myself to another one.
Exactly Lucy – it’s a total utter waste of time defending ourselves over nothing but lies and accusations. It’s CD are referred to at times, as human Chubacabra – soul suckers. A Chubacabra is an animal spotted in several places in Latin America said to drink attack and drink the blood of goats.
Recognising CD is pretty easy these days mainly via their own projections. Particularly when on the attack. At that point they are going for negative supply. Any attention is better than no attention. The more they lash out the more desperate they are for supply. Because they are so outrageous they now light up like neon signs for me even before they go on the attack.
There is a module in NARP dedicated to this. It’s called “Letting Go of the Need to Win and Fight to Create Decency” Ironically I had this on this morning – I’ve cleared all previous charges around this area – I had zip, nadda, zilch so I’m now well clear here. Narcs can no longer hook me into this game.
They are a total waste of time and energy. So the only option is to totally not give them any Lucy and withdraw your energy immediately and with a big smile – for yourself :-
Eudox,
There is a module in NARP dedicated to this. It’s called “Letting Go of the Need to Win and Fight to Create Decency – I’d like to read up on that. Where can I find an article?
Lucy et All
In all honesty I think you would benefit greatly by the whole program – all here would. I have grown exponentially. The MTE forum is closed forum for members only. It is not like this forum, the MTE forum is totally committed to OUR healing not dedicated to recognising narcs or narc discussions.
It is strictly about not only surviving after narc abuse but Thriving and healing these gaps within us that allowed them to hook into us. There are 11 modules in NARP altogether dedicated to each aspect of narc abuse.
Here is what M5 is about from Melanie Tonia Evans site:
Module 5: Let go of the Fight to Win and Create Decency
Trying to make the narcissist accountable is one of the greatest hooks that keeps people attached to narcissists and keeps them handing their power over. For this reason this Module is incredibly essential. Definitely act within the law and your rights, if this is what you wish to do, but it is essential to release from yourself the heightened, painful and panicked charge of ‘needing to win’, needing the narcissist to wake up and ‘get it’, needing to hold the narcissist accountable, and needing other people to ‘see’ who the narcissist really is.
If you try to operate within the fear and pain of these charges you will receive more punishment from the narcissist, and play right into his or her hands. Dealings and conversations will be twisted and turned and you will be further abused and / or incriminated. Narcissists are experts at switching the tables if you stay attached and are not in your power.
As a result of using this Module, you will be able to release yourself from these charges and walk your truth powerfully, calmly and non-affected by what the narcissist is or isn’t doing. Your emotional freedom will no longer be conditionally reliant on ‘closure’ – the justice, accountability or apologies for what happened.
…………………………Melanie Tonia Evans
I can back up what she says above totally and unequivocally 100% – NARP works! I and thousands of others are living proof of this. It is a powerhouse – I’ve been a member for 5 months now.
An overview of the entire program is below – check it out.
https://www.melanietoniaevans.com/services/narc-abuse-recovery.htm
Lucy
I meant to give you this clip earlier. It’s Jenna Ryan about narcissists’ “Little Digs” it’s a beauty!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-C-7YniduU
And NEVER defend yourself because there is no need :-
Thanks Eudox. I watched it. I’ll never again choose a narc for a partner or friend. And I understand there’s no reason to defend myself, but my first reaction is to defend still. I’m a work in progress
Hey it’s Valentines Day! LOL I met my ex narc on Valentines Day no shyte! What a rabid disaster that was………………………….oh well I’m much better now for it Yayyyyyyy
Hey Lucy this is just out from Mel – about attracting or NOT toxic people into our lives – very handy hint it is indeed…………………
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe0Hslak1fM
Send you a big Valentines Day hug!
LisaO, AndyD and Lucy,
What I have to work on is not being baited too. Boy, was I deaf, dumb and blind. There came a time for me to say no more and then to stick to my boundaries. For me, once that boundary is crossed there is no going back. In fact I knew it would be unsafe, the ante will be upped and the price to pay will be exacted in form.
LisaO, I had to walk away from all this game playing, it takes its toll and it robs one of our precious time to spend with others who do sincerely care about us.
Its a game of cat and mouse, always toying and when done with you, chew you up and spit you out mangled and half breathing. The one Sis is ruthless in this regard. Once bitten by these varmints, never again.
My heart strings are always being tugged at and above all I must listen to my gut, its always right. My CD sisters will never change, the words change, their stripes change, however, they are who they are. I always tell my mom, words are cheap, its the actions, the actions over a period of time.
Yes, gas lighting and baiting are wicked deeds and they are meant to destroy. I know how these tactics were used on me and I vowed never again. This is a great topic to review. We must never forget.
BOTV
True, they don’t change, their character does not change, maybe the behavior now and then when they so choose, but their character, their heart and soul does not change.
I’ve had so much contact with no contact, actually for me it was as little contact as possible, and it is extremely difficult for me to disengage especially when my character is being attacked. Then I remember all the times I defended my character and actions to the CD x husband, needlessly, waste of my breathe. It was a game to him and further manipulation. So this latest instance of the character attack against me – I did it — I disengaged and didn’t waste energy on the CD defending myself. It really goes against nature to not defend, but as we all know, it’s the best way to go, because it turns into a circular, non-ending, ridiculous banter back and forth full of untruths from the CD’s mouth.
The CD has a way of engulfing our thoughts, bringing out our worst feelings of anger, by their mere false accusations.
I’m trying hard to stay NC with this latest assault, and assault it is.
Thanks Btov,
You did very well! You have experience going way way back to childhood and that stands you in good stead. I am so lucky, in that my experience with gas lighting was really brief.
As brief as it was, the reframing of reality by the psychopath who targeted me was so intensely confusing. I can remember feeling SO guilty, so ashamed, as if I had said or done something so irredeemably terrible I must deserve the treatment I ultimately received.
My father used shame constantly which is terrible to do but it wasn’t twisty turny confusing and there was a limit to it, so it could be tuned out pretty easily.
So the whole, “you guys have to apologize for your cruelty going back years,” was my limit.
So — a great example of someone attempting to control others by creating a false reality– gas lighting.
There will always be kids who become addicted to drugs because they are sensation seeking and irresponsible. It is very much a character issue and their parents suffer terribly.
There are other parents who are obviously so character flawed themselves that the question is obvious. What role did they play in their child’s condition?
Lisa/BTOV et All
This “you have to apologise for your cruelty” shyte they throw at us is this. When they accuse us of being cruel it is not only projection but they are expecting us to apologise to them for not coughing up supply.
That’s what that is all about. Once the penny fully drops on that charade it becomes a standing joke. Remember they are fully twisted units, if we don’t give them supply it puts them into narc injury. Then we get attacked for it and horrendously. It’s their distortion of reality and has absolutely NOTHING to do with us even remotely.
BOTV
Do you have troubles with all the sisters? What do you suppose happened? Something in the child rearing? You seem to be close to your mother though. I sure wish I still had mine. She was hit by a car while crossing the street on vacation and killed immediately, at my age, 58.
I do value life and I know it can be destroyed any given day.
My hope is that I can teach my adult children that you can come out of a bad relationship (my marriage- their troubled relationship with their CD abusive father) and still have a good heart, a good life, finding joy in life itself – once away from the trouble making CD Hopefully she does not cling to a man with similar traits.
I’m so sorry to hear about your mother, Lucy. That’s really terrible! And your kids will likely be fine because they have you as a parent.
LisaO
Thanks for that. I do my best, but I sure have faults, lots of them. Most of them having to do with just being tired, tired of dealing with things I don’t want to deal with, wishing they’d be off on their own and thriving. But they still need me and my money. My son is mentally ill and living in a group home situation, but he’s doing very well, but still needs my help time and again. And he’s a sweet man, just turning 30. Very soft spoken and kind.
And my daughter has a three year old son, single mother, no help from the father (it was an unwanted pregnancy, neither of them were equipped to be a parent). So she and her son are now living with me, in this tiny apartment. I had to sell both homes in the divorce and am still living in what I call “transition”. I’m pretty worn out, having moved two homes, lived in three different places in three years.
Anyway, we are making it work. But yeah, I’m tired. Never thought my life would be like this. Thought I’d be on Easy Street at this age, 58!
Lisa
It’s an energetic transaction. I’m not a great artist by a long shot, but I have a picture in my imagination of this transaction – one day if I ever find my inclination to paint again, I’ll paint it.
There was a really good picture once on a blog not sure where but it was a guy on the couch talking to a shrink. The guys head was represented as a tangled ball of wool and the shrink was knitting a TV……….. it was pretty kewl.
When we really step back out of it – and look in at them from an objective stance there is nothing left to see other than a tangled ball of wool trying to knit itself into an image. They fail to meet their mark at the best of times. They are at their core – quite pathetic because their is nothing at their core. They are empty pits who have to fill their lives with drama so they feel something.
You’re right it’s not just confined to CD but they are totally outrageous and take it way off limits. Fools go where angels fear to tread.
Eudoxia,
Being all dressed up and nowhere to go, is one thing but being all messed up and nowhere to grow is something else.
And being cd makes it hard to grow as a human being. It’s pretty tragic when it’s the result of vulnerability due to childhood trauma though. I am not exaggerating when I say my heart breaks for those who have had it so rough they can’t overcome it.
LisaO,
I am glad you brought up childhood trauma. I can make the connections to traumas individuals had suffered in childhood and who they are today. The sad part is the divided self, the false self dominating to protect that small inner child who never had a chance.
Therefore, we see the the results of these trauma’s everywhere in society. Do we accept the CD behavior due to this fact or do we hold them accountable. We have to hold them accountable or we will have a society that transforms and morphs into CD being the norm and the empaths being disordered one.
Btov,
I learned from dr.Simon that confronting, focussing on behavior is the best approach. In a social situation, best to walk away, if it’s possible.
I also learned from Dr. Simon, that some of the cd’s are predominantly vulnerable and some are more the aggressive type.
Those who we are close to, we should confront, for the reasons you brought up, regardless of cause.
Lisa – I missed this post.
I understand where you are coming from Dr Gabor Mate really shows how badly damaged these people are. Some of them just end up hopeless and insane and others turn into CD.
There was a book I read many years ago it was called When Rabbit Howls – The Troops for Trudy Chase. It was a book – an autobiography of Trudy Chase who was so badly abused by BOTH her parents sexually, physically and emotionally starting at a very young age that she developed Multiple Personality Disorder MPD which has not been declassified by the DSM.
She developed 93 different personalities who shielded her from her core self that was so damaged she could never recover. She was not CD but she had distinctly different personalities living inside her.
It was absolutely tragic and I read that at a fairly young age when I was in my teens. Not all of them are so badly abused as Trudy Chase but all hard core CD probably pretty well are.
Then you have the rest who develop CD traits and they are just unhinged and clearly insane due to their totally twisted thinking. Whereby they continue throughout the duration of their lives to project absolutely all of their own unacceptable emotions and behaviors onto everybody else particularly those they are in intimate relationships with.
“Personality Disorder MPD which has not been declassified by the DSM”
Now not NOT …………….
Amen, thank you, Lisa.
It’s interesting what Dr Simon said about the CD during therapy working on changing their behavior. At one on the marriage counseling sessions my psychologist mentioned that the X might ”behave “ for a while but that it wouldn’t last. I’m essence, his core would be the same but he’s smart enough to change a behavior when he has the desire to. I believe there was a point of no return with the degree of disturbance the X possessed. I saw him worsen and degenerate rather than change for the better
AndyD and all,
I think we have to evaluate the situation and who the CD person is we are dealing with first. Know thy enemy and we are, the enemy as far as the CDN is concerned. The CDN hasn’t any real friends, only flying monkeys. The unfortunate people are the ones who truly love the CDN.
Different strokes for different folks. I personally don’t like calling a CDN out on their behaviors, as I have found out, the CDN shape shifts accordingly and then its on to the next game at a different and higher level of deceit. So find it best to keep silent and disengage.
Also, I won’t educate them, I prefer not to let them know I have their number from the get go. As time goes on, as we have all witnessed, we can sit back and watch the CD put the noose around their own necks and hang themselves. Sad but true, what they would do to another, the CD ultimately do to themselves. Poetic justice served, many times over and I didn’t have to lower myself to their toxic level.
I think it best to let their sick tactics and behaviors play out, the sooner the better more people catch on. As AndyD suggested many times the smile and laugh can end a problem or it can also ignite one. AndyD, you are so right about the slight smile and letting it roll off. I think this angers and drives home the point to a CDN more than anything. Thanks for calling attention to that. When we smile with tact, we send a message to the CDN. The meaning is, you have no power over me.
I learn so much from this blog, I just love it. The CD’s are out there and learning from people here, this is so helpful, I never want to be victimized by another CD. So glad to have found Dr. Simon’s site.
I guess a smile when countering CD tactic, conveys following:
I know you are acting like a pig. I know that I should not wrestle with a pig, because I will get dirty, besides a pig like it. Now go on and roll in your garbage.
It is a rejection combined with mocking, so yes, it is dangerous when done with certain type of people.
Making a peaceful exit is always a better and safer choice.
BTOV,
I posted my reply first and then read your comment. So, pretty much stated same thing.
You are right… best to keep silent and disengage.
I will add… if other guy has better sense, he/she will learn soon how to engage back.
BTOV – ditto that on “the only friends a CD has are flying monkeys” – yep and if they don’t cough up supply for a CD they get eaten alive.
They do in the end hang themselves – they are fully pathological creatures running the same programs day in day out 24/7. They can’t come up with anything new. They play like broken records stuck in a groove. It’s the same behavior across the different variety of CD time and time again.
Their neural pathways have atrophied and therefore they have no available avenues to act in ways counter to that which has pretty well been been set in stone. I don’t think neuroplasticity applies to them on account of atrophication. That’s why it’s futile holding them to account.
You can’t hold a loaf of bread to account anymore you can a CD let alone expect closure. If they gave us closure that would be like death to them, they are not going the let a source of supply go that easily. They will just continue to extract our life force in every way possible – IF WE ALLOW IT.
That’s the key – disengaging. Don’t fuel the fire – cut your losses and walk. We’ve all had to do that. There are two things CD really hate and fear the most and that’s being ignored and ridiculed.
Comment deleted by Dr. Simon
Aishiteru
I think the truth is something that frightens you and you have been running away from it your entire life.
All here apart from YOU, have had to face up to the truth and deal with it.
You are a coward.
THIS IS NOT our problem, BUT YOURS.
Take care BYEEEE
Joey,
How are you? How is everything going for you? I was thinking of posting earlier for you. Now I know you will be stopping in at least on Saturdays at least it is in the states.
I hope your not working to hard and getting enough sleep. Also, eating right too, so important when your working so many hours. Also, it is easier to eat something that isn’t very healthy just because its fast and convenient. Remember, lots of veggies and fruit. A few vitamins wouldn’t hurt too. Just like a big Sis to worry. Sorry, just want you well so I will get more of those special poems.
Hugs from Big Sis
No Joey,
I am not a coward. It takes a lot to stand up for something I respect. I may not do it exactly right, but I will learn from my mistakes.
I can mess up and apologize. It really is freeing. In my anger I lost it, I needed to be humbled. That’s called being human.
Where are you going?
I have unapproved this comment and will be asking my webmaster to look through a long chain of comments to clean some things up where necessary. The caliber of discourse on this blog has generally been uncommonly stellar, so I hate to see it when any discussion sinks to the level I’m seeing here. If there weren’t some fine and meaningful comments elsewhere in the chain, I would simply put a block on further comments. But instead I’m asking that the all comments be of the caliber the readers here have come to expect. If not, I’ll take action to block.
Thanks for understanding and for your cooperation.
Hi Aishiteru,
I apologize that i don’t know this place is a limited or close discussion group and call you a troll , will stay out of comment from now onwards , hope you are well and take care .
“When a feeling dissolves, it ceases to be your enemy and begins to be one of your allies”
Samson,
Being a new poster and all that is going on, missed the opportunity to welcome you. I am glad you have found Dr. Simons’s blog and many resources you feel came at the right time. There are many good people on this blog who will extend their hands to help on in need.
All of us here have had our fair share of dealing the CDN of this world and through community of this blog have had the privilege to reach out and help each other though, sharing experiences, knowledge, support, love and community.
I am sorry you came at such an inopportune moment, this is something that happens occasionally. Sometimes it may take time to be rectified, in the end it is a blessing as we become more attuned to weeding the CDN out. I encourage you to keep posting and not let another decide for you. I welcome you to be a part of the discussion and hopefully, will get to know you under better circumstance.
Samson,
Ditto to that. The current discussion is not the norm, but it happens. I’ve found great education through Dr. Simon’s weekly articles, and through reading his books. Some commenters here have lived through dealing with CD’s, some long term, some shorter term.
I’d like to hear your story, Samson. We all have a story, why we are here. You will find that if you’re here seeking education and support, you’ll receive both.
But now and again posters themselves turn out to be trouble-makers, CDs, manipulators, narcs, and come to this site to bring down and further abuse those seeking help.
That is what is happening this past week or so.
Last week I posted how I’ve come to the end of a 25+ years of abusive marriage with a Grandiose Narc, CD, too much to go into right now, and after three and a half years of court litigation, am done with him and don’t have to deal with him.
IMMEDIATELY the response from Aishit was to tear me down, call into question my character. Her immediate response was to now be the CDN. Couldn’t stand that I’d got rid him. She thought she’d take his place. Is that support? Absolutely not. Aishit will bring a person down, if you let her. She’s nothing to me. Nothing. A Big Nothing.
My favourite is when the CD “Christians” (an oxymoron!) belittle and insult you and then sign off with, “in truth and light” or some such insincerity.
They are similar to the Nasty Namaste, eastern mysticism type. Holier than thou, in both cases. They miss the point so utterly, it is stunning!
LisaO
I work with a gal who is a religious zealot. She shows total disregard for her coworkers, (not treat badly but is aloof and could care less about any of us, our joys or sorrows), but she is totally immersed in her religious practice. I think she has a good heart, but seems troubled.
Lucy – whose comment got bumped as in unapproved?
I missed most of the action – sadly. I’m sure it would have been enlightening to say the least. I can see which one got deleted and in light of recent posts I can clearly understand why.
This is why I speak of mysterious fictitious creatures – it’s an alert.
Eudoxia, Think it was the same poster who had one other post deleted.
Wise words Samson. Easy to say, but the lessons can sting sometimes , huh?
Back at ya.
Its pretty evident that CD’s have a real problem with projection, and what triggers anger is something we need to examine. I know it works like that for me, when I am most offended I need to look at that, as an opportunity to grow. The CD would rather blame and accuse than look inward.
LUCY
Well done. Go get that coffee and a cake. YOU EARNED IT
To all
Just done 60hrs at work this week. Could do more and they want me to. Will be on my own monday. running another machine, I am nervous. But I will do my best.
Joey
And well done to you as well!
I just got back from grocery shopping and did buy a red velvet cake and bouquet of flowers for my kitchen Table. It’s so cheerful !
Lucy,
Last time I did that, it felt great. The only problem is, I ate the whole cake:-)
BTOV – that’s the point of divorcing the CD – you get to eat the whole cake not content to settle for crumbs any futher :-
Joey,
Your employers must have immense respect and confidence in you, otherwise, they would never have entrusted this responsibility with you. I know you can do it. Believe in yourself, breathe and breathe some more. Get plenty of shut eye and eat nutritious. In the end your determination and character will shine and carry the day. I have a lots of confidence in you too. Against all odds you are making it.
Joey, thank you for sharing your life and the good things that are happening to you. I have a big smile on my face and am so happy for you. Your happiness is our happiness. I am turning a big 63 this week, I wished I could go back. However, when you see another soar and rise above like you, Lucy and JC, it is a priceless gift.
Hooray Joey. Good for you! So many of us here are doing so much better than we were when we arrived!
Good for you joey.
It appears you are loving your job and life. Make sure you are also getting your pound of flesh from your employer and saving it for later.
Few people can claim loving their job.
Joey – high five to you!
Joey just remember all you can is your best. You can do no more or better than that. If you have done your best and know you have done your best, no matter if somebody complains you will have nothing to feel guilt or remorse over if you have done your best. And your best is YOUR best – it’s not somebody else’s version.
Life is just grand when we no longer worry about others’ judgement.
Sending you a big hug…………
BTOV
Just for you
Fruits And Vegetables
by Geneen Meyers
If you want to go out and play
A healthy snack begins the day
Even if you are outside
That is what you shouldn’t hide
Carrots, broccoli and even melon
Pumpkin pie and also lemon
Vegetables is healthy and also grand
It is also good in lending a hand
Fruits like mango and grapes
And also those healthy flakes
Eat those foods and be okay
And remove all the junk away
Diary of a Church Mouse by John Betjeman
Here among long-discarded cassocks,
Damp stools, and half-split open hassocks,
Here where the vicar never looks
I nibble through old service books.
Lean and alone I spend my days
Behind this Church of England baize.
I share my dark forgotten room
With two oil-lamps and half a broom.
The cleaner never bothers me,
So here I eat my frugal tea.
My bread is sawdust mixed with straw;
My jam is polish for the floor.
Christmas and Easter may be feasts
For congregations and for priests,
And so may Whitsun. All the same,
They do not fill my meagre frame.
For me the only feast at all
Is Autumn’s Harvest Festival,
When I can satisfy my want
With ears of corn around the font.
I climb the eagle’s brazen head
To burrow through a loaf of bread.
I scramble up the pulpit stair
And gnaw the marrows hanging there.
It is enjoyable to taste
These items ere they go to waste,
But how annoying when one finds
That other mice with pagan minds
Come into church my food to share
Who have no proper business there.
Two field mice who have no desire
To be baptized, invade the choir.
A large and most unfriendly rat
Comes in to see what we are at.
He says he thinks there is no God
And yet he comes … it’s rather odd.
This year he stole a sheaf of wheat
(It screened our special preacher’s seat),
And prosperous mice from fields away
Come in to hear our organ play,
And under cover of its notes
Ate through the altar’s sheaf of oats.
A Low Church mouse, who thinks that I
Am too papistical, and High,
Yet somehow doesn’t think it wrong
To munch through Harvest Evensong,
While I, who starve the whole year through,
Must share my food with rodents who
Except at this time of the year
Not once inside the church appear.
Within the human world I know
Such goings-on could not be so,
For human beings only do
What their religion tells them to.
They read the Bible every day
And always, night and morning, pray,
And just like me, the good church mouse,
Worship each week in God’s own house,
But all the same it’s strange to me
How very full the church can be
With people I don’t see at all
Except at Harvest Festival.
Joey,
Thank you, so very true.
God is perfect. I am not.
People are not. Ever.
I only serve Him. I am grateful when He teaches me, even when it hurts.
I am not Him.
I can’t live without Him.
But I can see where you were coming from with that Joey. Thank you.
Aishiteru,
“I hate the lies, manipulations and cruelty that’s gone on here. But I refuse to hate you.”
Non apology not accepted.
I found with my husband that he increases his manipulations when under stress…even when stressed from outside our relationship. So mostly he has little benign attempts at manipulations which I never really recognized until he somehow feels threatened and increases the number and intensity of them. Its only then that I became conscious of his tactics but I couldnt comprehend his motivation. I was naiive to the concept of control and power. Thankfully…with internet research I was able to find this blog (and others).
It does seem to me that my husband (who I feel normally hovers around being moderate narcissistic) slides along the narcissism spectrum to almost pathological as he has gotten older. A mid-life crisis to the nth degree so to speak. Is it logical to surmise that as his youth fades that he will hover more often and longer further along the spectrum?
Patti,
Age does play a role… makes the actual behaviour more visible.
A 5 year old behaving like 5 year old is adorable.
A 15 year old behaving like 5 year old may appear mischievous.
A 25 year old behaving like 5 year old may appear someone needing a bit of growing up.
A 45 year old behaving like 5 year old may appear whacked out of place.
A 65 year old behaving like 5 year old will be terror.
AndyD,
Your post should be framed, a real classic.
All true, yet so sad…………..
Andy you missed out 55 – they become bitter and twisted. Testament to that is my former best friend by 65 she’ll be a total horror story. I have nothing to do with her now but from what her sister tells me she’s just getting way worse.
A 65 year old behaving like 5 year old will be terror.
No it is just annoying, also detressing for the victim. It will ultimately means GOODBYE. If like me you have no idea of what is going on, it can be incredibly confusing. Their face shows no emotion, eyes that stare, and that face. NO emotion expressed or shown, eyes that roll backward, as if there is a second person inside their head.Like gollum in Lord of the rings. They will be more the boarderline type. With memory issuses.
Pattie
From my experience when the CD get stressed no matter what the source they are lacking supply which is why they manipulate, bait and attack and cause chaos in general. They need to destabilize others so they can get that hit of narcissistic supply – I suppose to them it is just like a heroin junkie enjoying the rush they get from shooting up.
As you are still in a relationship with this man I suggest you really come to understand the nature of narcissistic supply and narcissistic injury. Then you need strategies to deal with it if you intend staying in that relationship. You need to protect yourself and not just “put up” with this type of behavior.
Andy, Patti,
Less energy available to keep the mask in place with age. It is really common for people to reach a certain age and then start to age in reverse. It’s partly a cognitive thing and partly emotional. Hardening of the attitudes, I think it’s called.
Really important for even the ordinary character flawed (not disordered) person to get a handle on this before old age does its number.
So the prognosis for your husband isn’t good. They don’t mellow with age or grow even finer like old wine. They turn to vinegar.
Thanks for the input. Yes I see and feel what you are all saying.
Less energy to maintain the mask….harder to hide the emotional immaturity.
Patti, LisaO,
I don’t think it is really due to less energy to retain the mask. I believe the anger is so intense, because they hate the aging process and don’t give a dam anymore about the mask. The ageing process is something the CD have a hard time accepting. They hate it as it shows their frailty and the onset of their demise. Many of the CD look in the mirror and mirrors don’t lie, the reality is they are not the infallible demigod they purport to be.
Therefore, the reality is as AndyD presented in his interpreted scale representing the decline in behavioral functioning of the aging CD. There are very few who accept the aging process and mellow. Its like asking for a miracle. If you are a Christian, you can pray for him. If you decide to stay or have to, prepare yourself for this decision, if you divorce prepare for the battle.
Patti, I am glad you found Dr. Simons blog and would encourage to read all his books, continue to read the archives of this blog and watch his many You Tubes. I would also like to welcome you to continue posting. We have a great group of regulars who have personal experience in dealing with the CD.
Please feel free to join in with any questions, opinions or personal stories you have.
Blessings to you on your journey.
I see what you are saying. I remember my husband having a mini melt down when I categorized us as middle aged (we were 48). I was thinking that as he ages he will become more manipulative. Ive seen this cycle with him before.
Patti,
Glad to see your posting. There is an enormous amount of information on this blog, please take advantage of this resource. As you roam throughout the blog you will find links to other resources and informative articles and blogs.
Also, feel free to ask anything. If you don’t mind, how old are you now? Many who have come to this site are older, have more than 25 years in. There is a cycle and repeats over and over, never getting better just worse.
The only way I seen a CDN relinquish some of, or all the power/control is if they become incapacitated and have to rely on solely on you or someone else. They will try to continue to control. However, if one is aware of the power/control structure one can move it. One must be strong and not affected by the rages or antics the CDN will pull. Once it is understood who holds the reigns the CDN may concede power/control and be somewhat or completely submissive.
Patti,
I think that the CD, as he/she ages, has racked up so much baggage, done so much harm, gets totally immersed in the mask and finds life more difficult. People who once tolerated the behavior no longer will. They can become friend-less.
My counselor told me I was the last thing the X had to lose. I stayed while everything around him fell apart. And I found it difficult to leave him when he was down. He lost it all. Finally he lost his law license and likewise his job. So what was I to do then? I wanted to leave, but that would mean me paying HIM alimony (maintenance) till he found a job. So luckily his friend gave him a job, then I promptly left. He got back on his feet and proceeded to kick me to the dirt, to do as much damage as he possibly could to me economically, emotionally, trashed my reputation, spread lies, went through three l/2 years of courtroom litigation. That was my “thank you” for standing with him till he got on his feet.
In my case, the CD got much worse. I think he may also have had a “nervous breakdown”.
For you Lucy,
This woman could be you singing, the song aches of your journey, your spirit and above all speaks to your character.
Blessings dear one and may the future hold all your dreams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-aAn2u5Pr4
Patti, Lucy,
Lucy, excellent points.
With age, I find I am gas lighting myself! I am forever hiding things on myself, turning the heat up then forgetting and wondering why its up so high.
My best is dimming the lights way low for dinner, then forgetting they are dimmed down and literally stumbling around the kitchen wondering why it’s so dark. That is right out of the movie, Gaslight! LOL
You’re funny LisaO. And I love that movie !
LisaO, Lucy, Eudox,
Sure glad you gals can joke about this. I won’t even begin to tell you the ditsy things I did today. At one point, I wished I could go to sleep and start my day over. I will have to watch the movie.
Ladies………..
It’s why I bring up Boggats – it’s because it is actually subliminal satire. It also serves as a slightly covert warning to others to suggest we might have one around………………………………….
Personally I think JK Rowling created them in accordance with her own experiences of the CD kind and let’s face it from a totally fictional stand point they do represent exactly what CD are i.e. feeding off our deepest fears for control purposes in order to have power over us.
Well I’m afraid that simply won’t do.
Eudox,
I remember the Boogie Man…
Hey Guys
I am really glad Dr Simon put up the interview with Meridith Miller – she’s an exceptionally good Life Coach. I’ve listened to a lot of her UTube talks and she is very good and again has been on the receiving end of narc abuse. It’s these people who are opening the way to true healing after NA.
Extensive gaslighting is the most debilitating of all narc strategies. It can only really work though when we actually love the abuser. But once Hyde comes out that’s the jack in the box that never goes fully away again. The ultimate mistake we make is loving them enough to think we can heal them. No we can’t I’m afraid.
I think that is a major lesson we have all learned on this site. I’m just glad I expended the amount of hours I did to really research these disturbed creatures and I am 99.9% certain not one single one of them will ever be able to fly under my radar again. And it’s not just researching about them we need to do in order to be truly safe.
We really must do the clinical psychology on ourselves as well and make sure we have found all our vulnerabilities that allowed them to hook onto us and suck us down their distorted rabbit hole. I am being vigilant in this regard. I was very pleased with the amount of self work I had done prior to my 5 narcs showing up and 2 being in my own family. It was a big lesson and I’m now investing more of my time and an extensive amount of it actually sealing up those gaps.
I am not going to become entangled with another one albeit I think that is impossible now. However, I am leaving nothing to chance. In reality there is no such thing as chance or fate – just law unrecognised. CD can only hook into us if we have pre-existing unresolved wounds that draw them in the first place. Fix that and we don’t draw them in because they can’t physically “show up”.
Loved the video posted by Dr. Simon and I watched one of MM’s other videos about not engaging, not providing them with anything to hook into. I have to really focus on this and if I run into the crazy boutique owner again, this is what I will do!
Yes, Meredith Miller is very good. I have watched all of Dr. Simon’s videos too. They are superb.
Lisa
CD can’t physically come near me now. The one I had encountered here who really tried to take me out. She can’t come anywhere near me now. Nor does she worry or bother me. Zip. She’s got a new source of supply now so she’s out and about a bit but she keeps well clear of me.
It will only be a matter of time before she ends up abusing the new supply and then will disappear again. She’s serial – this has been going on since she’s been here. She latches onto people and this only lasts a couple of months before she does a total “Full Chucky” on them.
The new supply she’s got is a lesbian who has just broken up with her gay lover of 17 years – Borderline. Guess what???? CD love the walking wounded and will milk her for what she’s worth but she’s been warned by many people to be careful. If she wants to roll around in the mud that’s her choice.
It’s so incredibly obvious what’s going on from an outsider’s perspective. She’s just effectively invited a vampire into house – her choice so be it. We live and learn well hopefully.
To All,
Here’s a case study, you decide! #1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etmCR_K33sQ
To All,
Case study, you decide! #2. Attitude adjustment or ????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puS-7hEX4II
I would say AWESOME! So what he said up front the first time was nothing. “Let’s pretend the judges aren’t here and I’ll just entertain you folk”
That could easily have been an ice breaker to break his own nerves. Knowing these judges from back in they day when I watched TV the judges can be really brutal and ruthless.
The judges two on the left – showed their own prejudice based on their own ego and unhealed parts within themselves. They were acting under the influence of wounded ego nothing more.
Kyle who is the biggest pr**( of all and has a reputation for it was actually fair. Because he recognised the guy has got actual talent and is not a pop up wannabe superstar doing outdated covers pretending to be who they are not.
My verdict on Carl Owen is he is incredibly talented. I can see no sign of CD in him whatsoever – one performance shows nothing. I am going to buy his stuff if he’s got any out!
Thanks BTOV the guy is awesome! Attitude or not. I support talent and creativity and that flies in the face of narcissism.
To All,
Case study, you decide. #3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbzb0Iu5s_Q
Here is my opinion. Willie who is talented and Karl? Who is also talented. I think they judges nailed it this time. They spotted a probable scam and Willie’s vulnerability was played.
To All,
Case study, You decide. #4. Humility (Enjoy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdwnHkNj1fM
Yes humility – he got the accolades he deserved for being a talented guy :- I got a smile out of his song and the judges response as well.
So that’s what I see sister ! lol
Btov,
What a beautiful young guy, inside and out! Sounds like Marvin Gaye. And yes, has humility. Thanks for the link!
Eudox,
I visited the website of the NARP program you are in. It looks to me like a good program. I looks like something I could surely benefit from. One counseling session costs more than the price of the program, not the Gold, the other one . . . .
Lucy,
With the silver program you don’t have access to the forum and that is hugely beneficial. It isn’t free but it’s the best investment I’ve ever invested in – ME.
Because that is what we are doing investing in ourselves. So many people turn up there in really broken states and in record time are in full recovery.
All the moderators are fully across narc abuse and you get the best suggestions and advice as possible – it’s pure Gold it really is.
I’m going to do it. I have lingering issues I need to deal with, issues that just don’t go away.
You won’t regret it Lucy – seriously. It is the best decision I ever made honestly. I thought I’d done a lot of self work and in reality the self work I did lessened my tolerance for abuse and I extracted myself from it pretty damn quick. But nothing – NOTHING beats this.
I’m turning up so much stuff and upleveling it it’s amazing what we are holding onto at a deeply unconscious level – this program takes us straight into it and it’s pretty much a guarantee we’ll never be narc bait again :-
Do the Gold – it’s worth it.
What’s the name of the site/program?
Jean
I’ve recommended this program a few times now, I’ve been doing it for 5 months and it’s well worth it!
https://www.melanietoniaevans.com/services/narc-abuse-recovery.htm
BOTV,
That song – yes, all me. And I love Jennifer Hudson. A song of survival.
• I’m Here. Song written for the Play Color Purple. Written by: Allee Willis Brenda Russell Stephen Bray
…… Got my house. It still keep the cold out. Got my chair When my body can’t hold out. Got my hands Doin’ good like they s’pose to, Showin’ my heart To the folks that i’m close to. Got my eyes. Though they don’t see as far now, They see more ’bout how things Really are now . . . I’m gonna take a deep breath. Gonna hold my head up.Gonna put my shoulders back, And look you straight in the eye. I’m gonna flirt with somebody When they walk by. I’m gonna sing out . . . Sing out. I believe i have inside of me Everything that i need to live a bountiful life. With all the love alive in me I’ll stand as tall as the tallest tree. And i’m Thankful for everyday that i’m given, Both the easy and hard ones i’m livin’. But most of all I’m thankful for Loving who i really am. I’m beautiful. Yes, i’m beautiful, And i’m here.
The movie Color Purple is one of my favorite movies.
Lucy,
The lyrics are beautiful and so simple at the same time liberating. I think I will print this out and put on my frig. I never saw the movie and will have to now. I think we all have inside us everything to live a beautiful life, how very true.
This interview was beautiful to watch and, even though it was fairly long I watched to the end. Dr. Simon, considering the widespread delusion that disordered characters don’t know what they’re doing, isn’t that also gaslighting on a wider scale? For an example, I’d like to offer the old notion that affairs can improve a marriage, LOL, if the betrayed person can get over it and improve themselves so it won’t happen again. Newspapers, magazines and couples counsellors are full of this to this day. The oppression of decent people must be enormous.
Yupp, denilism or widescale enabling.
This interview was beautiful to watch and, even though it was fairly long I watched to the end. Dr. Simon, considering the widespread delusion that disordered characters don’t know what they’re doing, isn’t that also gaslighting on a wider scale? For an example, I’d like to offer the old notion that affairs can improve a marriage, LOL, if the betrayed person can get over it and improve themselves so it won’t happen again. Newspapers, magazines and couples counsellors are full of this to this day. The value in oppressing decent people must be enormous.
Affairs can be the vehicle through which one or both despairing partners recognize and come to grips with unresolved grief and pain within the marriage.
I had an affair while I was married and am so ashamed I can’t admit it.
My husband, after many years and my constant attempts at explaining how crushed I was FINALLY woke up and started to take me seriously after the affair.
I find too many people frame fidelity in black and white terms. If one of the the partners is petsistently and rigidly emotionally neglectful, is that not the initial betrayal that leads to infidelity when the neglected party has an affair?
Those who are fulfilled and nurtured within a relationship do not look outside of marriage for ‘fun.’ They are simply trying to put some color into a bleak loveless life.
‘Decent’ people are just as susceptible as anyone else to an affair.
LisaO
When much younger, I was very opionated about “affairs”, how wrong it was! Oh My, what a horrible person! As I wised up, as you say, it’s not black and white. There are many reasons why one would have an affair. Some people cannot get out of their marriage, due to spouse’s income, health, or otherwise, and are then stuck in an unfulfilling marriage. And as we age we see that time is passing quickly.
So no judgment on my end. You did what you felt you needed. It’s your business. Too bad it took that extreme for the husband to wake up.
So too often a spouse isn’t taken seriously when they voice their needs not being met.
Yes, that took courage.
I too was married to a cold fish who wasn’t nearly meeting my needs. But it was on me to make the choice of staying in a cold marriage rather than doing the work of leaving. I paid the price of staying. But I was not a prisoner. Ugh. Back to you. I’m sick of my ordeal, and it’s over now. I saw it’s behind me, but it’s really not, it’s lurking cause my brain is still full of thoughts and images.
LisaO, so are you happy now with the man in your life? Hopefully he shows affection.
Mine does. He has a tender heart, and isn’t shy of showing it. He’s what I needed during this long drawn-out divorce. A man with a kind heart and gentle hands. Yep. I got me one!
Lucy,
I am so happy for you and your new guy. My new guy is great. Very creative, kind and affectionate. It’s one thing to ‘know’ you are loved and another to feel it.
I was much more judgemental about affairs in the past too!
LisaO – my husband of 40 years told me if I wanted intimacy to have an affair. He hadn’t slept in our bedroom in over 30 years.
It broke my heart – it was what finally made me realize I had to move out. When I brought it up later he told me “You know I didn’t mean that!”.
Yea right sure he didn’t. After not sleeping in your bedroom for 30 plus years you are supposed to know he didn’t mean it? Of course Jean foregone conclusion huh?? lol They really do think we’ve come down in the last shower I don’t know how they think anybody can buy their b/s. Seriously……………………….
How do you know when a narcissist is lying?
His lips move……………………………..
Oh Jean,
That is so sad. My husband wanted to have sex he just didn’t know how to communicate. So that wasn’t going to happen. He couldn’t help it but neither could I.
Not nearly as painful as what you went through!
You must have felt so undesirable. I am so sorry, Jean. It’s just so sad. You are a very strong person to have left a situation that must have left you feeling diminished. And the truth be told you are probably more deserving than most.
How are things going for you lately?
Jean
I hope your next man gives you the love and care you deserve. Otherwise, being without one might be better than being with one who is so aloof. I’m so done with mean, uncaring people.
Correction — “am NOT so ashamed I can’t admit it!”
Lisa
That took a lot of courage for you to share that – that was profound on many different levels.
One you are willing to admit you had an affair and you are not ashamed of it. You set out to get our needs met not with the intention of hurting anyone but simply to get your own emotional needs met . That’s okay in my book because we all have emotional needs that need to be fulfilled and if one party is not providing that well………………….
Two you could see you were trying to get water from a dry well with the loveless partner. This is futile and you put your own needs first not last and was not prepared to sacrifice pieces of yourself to put up with crumbs when you could be eating cake. Good for you!
And four that despite what has gone on here of late you put yourself in great possible danger to express your own core truth of you! And that is exactly what we need to do!
Good for you Lisa – sending you a big high five and a hug hug to boot!!!!
This is for you Lisa :-
I hope you enjoy it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmyBl8CJs1Y
Thanks for that, Eudoxia.
I kept all of this to myself for 15 years of marriage. I didn’t share it with friends or family because I didn’t want them to get the wrong impression. My late husband was a good, decent person but:
I had to hound him to make eye contact. He never asked my opinion about anything. There was no back and forth in conversation. It was just a monologue and usually about the same topics. He was unable to compliment me or express affection. The operative word here is ‘unable.’ So, I couldn’t really get angry.
After I had an affair, he at least began to understand the impact he was having on me. But he couldn’t change his behavior. He was just too hard wired to be who he was. The last year of his life, though, he did start to open up just a little, in spite of it all. It was way too late for me by that time.
I sure gave it my best shot though. Anyway, that is my story and I challenge anybody, decent or otherwise to resist the charms of a psychopath while partnered with someone with Aspergers. Good luck!
Now that’s out of the frying pan and into the fire Lisa! Talk about polar extremes of the weird kind. Let me see, if I had a choice I’d go celibacy!
LisaO
So the man you had the affair with was a psychopath?
Oh my – I hope I read that wrong.
Yes Lucy,
The man I had an affair with was a psychopath. So I went from feeling unfulfilled to feeling exhilerated and a rush of warmth and acceptance to a discard that was unbelievably cruel. Utter deep despair. My husband really came through for me at that time. His actions were selfless and heroic. I just wish that it had happened earlier on in the relationship and that we had received intense couple’s counselling. The main problem was both of us struggling with his autism and my physical illness.
LisaO
You’ve really been through it. Your husband had it in him, deep down. Too bad he couldn’t show it in a normal fashion day to day.
MMarg
I apologize for over reacting to your initial post here. Welcome to the blog and yes, that was a wonderful video of MM and Dr. Simon! Please continue to post. I look forward to your input!
LisaO
I was wondering the same thing MMarg asked. It’s so odd to go into a business and get chewed out. But sounds like she’s just a loose cannon and will go off on anyone for no reason at all.
I know what you mean when you think well this is odd, maybe I’m misinterpreting it – she couldn’t possibly be badgering me for no reason — but boom, she was! I’d be so angry – And you didn’t go off on her? I have a temper, I admit it, and I always try to talk myself into just being quiet. I say to myself “Don’t do it. Don’t do it. Don’t do it.” Them bam, I say something. That’s what happens when you’ve got “stored” anger. But who wants to be badgered without defense? Not me.
Hi Lucy!
See below. She is heavily reliant on articles that sell for under 50.00 and it is jam packed with merchandise. Locally, she is known for treating people badly. Most people refuse to go into her store and a cash only coffee shop across the street (which does have a online presence,) is the same.
I wish I could name it here so you could read the reviews. The worst reviews I have ever read. The proprietor is very rude AND confrontational. When customers take the bait, he hounds them and has even ended up saying, “I hope you go home and die!” He has threatened to call the police on customers who refused to pay an arbitrary charge, not listed on the menu. There are over a hundred reviews like this on trip advisor.
I live in a very weird place that is very divided between North and Southern parts of town. The Southern part is no problem but the Northern part is like taking the way back machine to a hostile place with hippies who feel that, “you should never trust anybody over 30.” The difference being they are all in their fifties and sixties now.
They are so nasty ‘up North’ they could be pot money laundering. Otherwise how would they manage to stay in business year after year.
LisaO
Do you live in the US? Sounds like you’re living in “The Twighlight Zone”. Haha!
Lucy, I am always concerned a family member might do a Google search using key words and identify me by details. So let’s just say I live in the U.S!
And the North part of town is very like something out of the twilight zone. I described it as a good example of a Potemkin village that is a complete facade that may be covering clandestine activity of some sort. Or, the people have a shared psychosis, or something like that.
As far as social services go, I understand completely. Salaried govt. employees with no mandate to please the customer!
Lisa – I have to put this comment in a weird place.
It doesn’t matter religion or otherwise – nasty judgemental people are nasty judgemental people period it doesn’t matter what religious denomination they are. They are what they are.
I went to the tavern last night for the members draw. The atmosphere was horrible you could cut it with a knife. I usually stay for while and wait until my friend knocks off work, she works in the kitchen and coudln’t even hang around for her to finish.
It was intensely hot yesterday, well over 100F so I don’t know if the heat fried everybody’s brain – they were all really negative and I had no desire to be around anybody at all. Came home and “old mate” had taken the butter out of the fridge and put it in the butter container on the bench. I came home to melted butter all over the bench, down the cupboards and on the floor -shakes head-
Lisa/Lucy
It’s got me stuffed how people like that manage to stay in business – AT ALL. People are becoming to accustomed to abuse I’m afraid. We had a woman in one of the local coffee shops in a small town not so far away like that. She chased one customer out of the shop with a broom one day. They are Jehova’s Witness who own it – they sound more like devil spawn lol. She was really abusive to the staff as well – and would rip it right up her husband didn’t matter who was around.
Aside from having lousy coffee and food the vibe was lousy so I steer well clear. Her husband was always really nice. Probably a co-dependent who knows nothing better……………………..what people put up with never ceases to amaze me and it sure does amaze me.
That’s wild, Eudoxia. And weird they are JW’s who, for all I think their religion is contrary to everything I hold true, they are usually the best people, in terms of character. I’ve had JW friends and they were so kind and good.
Eudoxia
I put up with an enormous amount of abuse almost my entire life. As humans we have a simplistic view of others. We do not see the evil in them. We minimise their behaviour because we have a conscience and therfore can love, we also trust. It is only when you suffer some kind of ego death, that things change for the better or even the worst
This is an awesome talk by Dr Liz Bolt Taylor on TED – perfect, I’m getting right into brains these days. She discusses something we have access to – narcs seems not?????? Yet this is what happens to them but they are not capable of stopping a process once it’s out the gates……………………. interesting days guys and gals.
No you can’t control my neural circuitry! Don’t you point your bad attitude at me! Narc be gone!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzT_SBl31-s
Hey, thanks for the Jill Taylor link. I am familiar with her, watched her video about having a stroke just after the Ted talk came out.
I haven’t watched this video yet but imagine she describes the neural pruning process that goes on in the teens.
One of the theories of schizophrenia I have seen kicked around lately is that some forms of schizophrenia are cause by the immune system over pruning the brain, as part of an autoimmune process.
That’s interesting to me as I have always had the intuition that something happens that causes a disconnect between left and righ brain, in this disease. The corpus colossum, which is the part of the brain that connects left and right hemispheres is damaged somehow.
If that is the case the victim of the disease could find his life receding into a dream, which might be somewhat poetic and pleasant, at first, but eventually becomes a nightmare of invasive voices while he loses the ability to introspect analyze and process meaning properly.
And heavens know what is happening spiritually with the teen who finds themselves lost in this bewilderness!
Very sad — but coming to grips with the neural aspects of the brain, through disease, may create an indirect path, for atheist academics through the mind to mind at large. It will hopefully lead to an understanding of the eternal and ensouled nature of all things. And of course it will directly help those tortured by mental illness, a great deal.
Jill Taylor is a revelatory angel to me!
Yes isn’t she! And it is the talk where she talks about pruning. There is so much information that should be taught in schools – it really should and it’s how the authorities and the world management team keep this society ignorant of things they should know for the betterment of not only themselves but as a whole. Doesn’t suit big corporate profit margins they does it.
I’m also getting into a lot of Dr Bessel Van der Kolk’s work at the moment as well. He’s another one venturing into territory the pathocracy would rather not have people go. They benefit more having an emotionally sick and traumatised society than they would a productive healthy socieity.
Actually making people emotionally, psychologically and phsyically healthy means they won’t succumb to and endless array of products designed to supply them with everything they need to make them feel better. Everything is designed to speak to people’s ego not people.
TV, advertising in particular is one major gaslighting extravaganza c/o Edward Bernays. Not to mention bigpharma with it’s dodgy array of “happy pills”. Shift trauma and false beliefs out of society and there will be no further market for “happy pills”.
“It is no measure of mental heath to be well adjusted in a profoundly sick society” J Khrishnamurti
Hi All!
I thought of another gaslighting phenomenon this morning. This one happens in the commercial, retail, restaurant sphere. It happened to me once in Europe, decades ago and left me so curious and then a few times here in North America.
Have you ever had the experience of going out for coffee or lunch at a franchise and not being served or having to wait eons for service and you are the only customer?
You kind of brush it off and figure there must be a prosaic explanation? At the same time, it is kind of crazy making. You get the impression you are being ignored and wonder if you are being too critical or if you are being paranoid.
And sometimes there IS a prosaic explanation. However, if it is a cash only operation, like most fast food places, there is a chance what you have stumbled into is a drug money laundering operation. Vast amounts of cash are dumped at these places and then books are cooked to make it look like they are turning a great profit. The money is cleaned up and customers ignored and left confused. Smoke and mirrors.
Social gaslighting of another type.
The shows Breaking Bad and Ozarks explain this phenomenon very well.
I just started watching Ozarks. Have seen Breaking Bad. Loved that series. Was hooked on it.
Yes I’ve been to places where I’m totally ignored and the staff won’t even give eye contact. This also happens at some social service places and places that are supposed to be giving customer service. They won’t look up. It’s not their “turn” to wait on someone I guess.
Yes it’s happened many times.
Yes one place indeed it was like that. I never went in there because I’m not a fast food person at all. But it was a major franchise and every single time I’ve walked past it there is never anybody in there! EVER. But it’s always open. I often wondered how they could be keeping the doors open.
A friend made the comment about money laundering one day and now you mention it and come to think of it it makes sense.
At the end of the day if there is no service or bad service I leave.
I liked Ozarks as much as Breaking Bad!
My topic today is character assassination. I work at the courthouse and just finished reporting in a hearing regarding seeking of an order of protection against the mother for the father and child.
The mother contended the father character assassinates her to her neighbors. (Sound familiar, Andy)
This divorced couple’s feud has escalated as time goes on, three years of continued court battling. I’ve gone through the same amount of time in my divorce.
As just want to say that as far as character assassination, there really is nothing you can do if someone wants to bad mouth the other around town. You can’t make a person shut up.
Whether truths are told or untruths, one just can’t spend their precious time worrying about what the other has said. I’ve had vicious things told about me, and only hoped that people who do know me can see through the lies. Really, only my friends matter to me, and they know the truths.
So character assassination can add fuel to the fire, or it can be ignored.
I preferred to ignore it the best I could and live my life. You can’t change what they say anyway.
The character assassination used to really make me angry, mostly because its done in secrecy and you never hear about it except by accident, or at least I didn’t. But I could tell it had gone on because I would get an odd comment or attitude from someone who really didn’t even know me. I just got tired of trying to figure it out and it made me a little paranoid, so I decided I just wasn’t going to care. That was easier. A lot of things were told to me way after I divorced the EX. I don’t understand hiding something that long. I agree with you Lucy that its best to go on and live your life and not waste the mental energy being aggravated about it. I did that toooo long, not realizing what was going on. I was in the dark about all of this and that was the worst part. Just knowing about this CD stuff makes it so much better, it was a real revelation to me when I stumbled on a site about what a narcissist was and it totally described the EX. It was the answer to all the things that had never made sense, it put all the pieces together and I finally felt sane again, like I could trust my own mind again. What a relief!
Lucy/Kat,
I’m going to plunk this question in anywhere.
Did anybody in your family know you were suffering all those years? Did your exes manipulate either of you to the point of extreme alienation? Did they offer and instill faulty perceptions of your parents? Have you been able to talk about this to them after you had left and identified your exes as narcs?
Sydney,
Both my parents died at an early age, 58 and 59. I was still in my 30’s. My mother knew of some problems I was having, but I didn’t burden her much with my troubles, and the X helped her out in her estate matters when her husband (my dad) died. And the X wasn’t nearly the bad person whom he later became. He would not do family gatherings with my family with me so I’d go without him, but he didn’t tell me not to go, but his absences was an embarrassment to me. He didn’t badger my parents or family members. I’ve always been outgoing, having lots of friends, kept my career and worked full time even while raising a family, so I kept my foot in the career path and had plenty of socialization. My socialization actually helped him because of us working in the same field, the legal field, my job at the courthouse and his job as a private attorney. I was very USEFUL to him.
Lucy, thanks for filling me in on a bit of your history. I wonder why they don’t do family gatherings? My ex-sib didn’t do them for his ex-wife either, hell he was barely there for our parents.
Sydney, I was estranged from my family, on a trip with my sister to another state and that’s when I met the EX. My sister left and I never went back. In fact, I was of the mind that “I’ll teach them” and didn’t even contact them for years. So I was already isolated and in a bitter state of mind. My problems began with my family, not with him. In fact, the entire 14 years I was married to him they never met him. Strange, huh.
Wow, they never met him. Estrangement is never straight forward. Thanks for sharing.
As just want to say that as far as character assassination, there really is nothing you can do if someone wants to bad mouth the other around town.
This is what I got in return for caring for the mother, I Stood by her When she was in hospital. I took a month off work to look after her when she came out. ( I had lived with my the mother/grandmother all my life, at that point). I also came home (her house) an hour and a half early, to cook her a meal and see she was safe and warm.
Joey,
They don’t seem to want to tell anyone about the good traits. You’re right, nothing you can do to stop the talk.
I’m so glad you broke free of them.
It’s split thinking – they flip between idealization (white) when they are getting “narc supply” and devaluation (black) either no supply or an attempt to garnish negative supply – there is no in between or middle road here. We are either all black or all white – never grey. This is why they can’t reason or negotiate.
When we go No Contact – we have totally withdrawn supply from them so their idealization requirement goes straight out the door and all it leaves them with is the BLACK option. It’s how their brains work.
It sorts the wheat from the chaff in our lives Joey. If others are turned against us due to slanderous words spoken by a deal black heart when we have done nothing personally against those who turn on us. Then we are blessed are we not?
It shows us who our real friends are and who has got our back and who is as treacherous as the CD themselves. Anybody who can be recruited as a flying monkey or who can snub us due to lies – are not worth knowing in my opinion nor do I want them anywhere around me because it shows distinct absence of integrity and common decency.
It’s the way they are – all of them. They have no individuality – nothing that makes them unique. They steal traits off their closest friends and in particular partners and family members and claim them as their own while slandering and maligning “the other” with their own traits.
We are in a great time of great transition now, where this type of behavior is being brought right out into the open. I wonder how many people of past decades have been institutionalized as a result of CD gaslighting and protracted abuse.
I really believe the amount of turbulence on this planet including crime, insanity and victimization of others is a result of CD’s rampant and pathological abuse for probably thousands of years and I’d say all of it without fail or exception.
On an interpersonal level we are seeing an unprecedented amount of people waking up to CD in their own lives and relationships and moving on. Realising this is not what life is about and not allowing the CD to spiritually assassinate them any further.
On a geopolitical scale we are seeing a complete collapse of the current order. The amount of Orwellian Newspeak going on in the West is so in your face I’m surprised we are not all walking around with black eyes. I don’t keep track of politics anymore because I refuse to give my energy into parasitic corporations posing as government.
It’s CD to the core. They claim and I mean ALL OF THEM – to be one thing then BLATANTLY and IN YOUR FACE – do the exact opposite while lying and denying any wrong doing. Sound familiar! Just take a look around……………………..
It’s happening in Oz just as much as it’s happening in the US. In the Western world the people’s best interests are not taken into account AT ALL. They see us only in terms of consumers for their poisonous products and to continue to implement legislation (that entraps us by words and human ignorance), education (that turns us into automatons), medical treatments that are extremely toxic and just about everything else they do is harmful to all biological life on this planet.
Why is everything wrapped in plastic? Why does our food contain toxic chemicals and additives that are exacerbating cancer and other diseases? Whey are we still producing oil when other inventions are out there that are more environmentally friendly? Whey are we still on the old Federal Reserve currency system of paying interest to bankers for the printing of OUR MONEY? This has been in force since 1913? WTF – it’s high time this planet woke up and started extracting it’s energy from this parasitic predatory system.
And here in is the problem for the elite psychopaths of the world – the people are waking up each and every day. There a grass roots alternatives rising up each and every day with a better way. At some point every human being will have to decide what they wish to give their energy to. Toxic same ole has beens – or move toward a new day with a new attitude of self responsibility and not merely move in the direction of the herd.
Amen. Problem is, theres nothing we can do about it. Money is influence and influence is politics and you know the rest. The people are never represented.
Joey
Ego death is the Biblical “first death” amazing book but taught completely ass up. Once we collapse everything we were taught as truth and go deep inside ourselves is where we will find true redemption. It’s quite contentious in many circles. But we don’t need to kill off our egos completely, we just need to prune it back and let it do the job it was intended not run our entire lives. The ego needs to be purified and tamed and thus refined so it becomes our ally rather than our Master.
More and more people each and every day are turning toward a more spiritual existence and perspective and are seeking a deeper understanding and a higher truth to the meaning of life the mulitverse and everything. Nothing will change in our outside world until we clean up our inside world.
“As within, so without” is one of the Hermetic Principles that applies here. Samahdi is a state that can be obtained now days without the need to meditate in caves for several decades. Time of great chaos can achieve a great deal and it reminds me of the story of the dog in pain.
There were two men sitting on a porch. The fist man says “why is that dog whimpering” the second man replies “because he’s laying on a nail” the fist man says “why won’t he get off it” the second replies “because he’s not in enough pain yet”
Sound familiar?
In Psychology, ego death may be called a psychic death, a term coined by Carl Jung, the man behind Jungian psychology
My X didn’t want to participate in either his or my family gatherings. He acted like he was put out because he had to attend a gathering. He never helped with gatherings I would host. Would show up and grace us with his presence. What a jerk. All his siblings are kind, decent, people, and so were his parents. He’s the oddball jerk of the family.
Lucy, common denominator:
“He’s the oddball jerk of the family.” Exactly my ex-sib. My parents were decent and giving people.
Lucy
In my basic research, I believe that there is a genetic link with boarderline/CD as with my family.
I think they are born to be bad. If they have a good upbringing they just become less bad.
If they develop that manic psychotic twist to them. They go VERY BAD.
Joey,
Genetics do play a factor. No question.
My mother has BPD and NPD, at 75, is not going to change. And there is no treatment or pill.
BPD can go bad, many do. A 12 Step program in my case, as I do have a history of that, helped me to become more about other people, because I also realized my father’s genetics are my saving grace. And it was being pawned off on the friends and medical professionals, who were the ones who exposed me to a more loving side. And a compassionate one.
The 12 step program has the greatest strength of that everyone goes in as a king, and comes out a servant.
Some is nurturing too.
Good to see you around JC. Glad that Aishiteru could not drive you away. 🙂
Oxygen.
Andy
She gave herself away on that score – the mask slipped big time.
In case you missed it JC – Dr Simon had to step in and intervene.
When you have CD around you can’t miss them, they are pathological and have no self control. She wasn’t getting any attention and by the end she was in desperate need of supply and was going for negative supply and that was the end of that…………………..