Habitual Liars and Their Agendas

Habitual Liars

Some disturbed characters are habitual liars. They habitually deceive not only others but also themselves. And they lie about many things. Moreover, some lie so frequently and so ardently that they even come to believe their own lies. Habitual liars can eventually lose appreciation for what’s real and what isn’t. Habitual lying severely interferes with sound character development. That’s why habitual liars are among the most seriously disordered characters. And folks who “con” repeatedly and with apparent passion and conviction can cause others to experience the gaslighting effect. (Victims of “gaslighting” feel “crazy” because in their hearts they know something to be true but their manipulator’s antics and tactics make them doubt)

“Pathological” Lying”

Some habitual liars are what many call “pathological” liars.  That’s because they lie for no apparent reason. They’re untruthful even at times when the truth would suffice or might actually serve them better. Because they were perplexed by it’s senseless irrational character, some researchers have regarded this kind of lying as a type of mental illness or even insanity. But these liars are not insane. Rather, they belong to a group of the most severely disordered characters among us (i.e. psychopaths, sociopaths, etc.). And they’re perfectly rational.  There’s a “method” to their apparent “madness.”

Lying: The Ultimate Manipulation Tactic

Manipulators don’t want you to know what they’re really all about or what they’re up to. It’s as simple as that. They lie to keep one-up on you and a step ahead of you. Of course, they lie for other reasons, too. But mainly they lie because it gives them an advantage or an edge. If you knew what they were really like or really doing the “playing field” would be level.  You’d also have a better chance to properly take up for yourself. Manipulators don’t want that. They’d rather you be in the dark and second-guessing. They deceive simply to take advantage of you.

The Psychological Toll of Deception

Hundreds have told me stories about relationship partners who led “double lives.” They eventually exposed these partners for the disturbed characters and frauds they really were. But that was only after they found their bank accounts were already cleaned out. Or perhaps they brought to light affairs that were going on for years. Maybe they finally proved false the many stories they’d been told. Victims of such duplicitous behavior often wonder how they got “duped” for so long. Were they too swayed by their partner’s charm to see the truth about them? Was their partner really different in the begining but changed somehow and for some unknown reason? Worse, they even wonder if they might have played a part in bringing about a change.

The truth Is Sometimes Hard to Fathom and Accept

Manipulation victims rarely consider that there are simply some people who by nature won’t allow the vulnerability essential to an equal partnership. Right from the beginning, such folks are all about the business of position and impression management. They’re forever scoping out opportunities, exploiting vulnerabilities, and seeking advantage. A victim’s guts might churn at all the “red flags.” But they tend to discount their instincts and feelings. That’s because they find it unfathomable that there could actually be people like this. They can’t imagine a person so hell bent on maintaining a position of advantage that they carefully cloak their true nature and agendas.

Realizing and accepting the truth can be painful in itself. Many victims struggle with shame, guilt after learing how badly they’d been conned. Sometimes, they even question their ability to make good judgments. Surviving a relationship with a habitual or pathological liar can leave you feeling both unnerved and confused. But when you understand the nature of character disturbance, things get better. Moreover, once you accept that some folks simply lack the capacity (or willingness) to relate on equal, respectful terms you can reclaim a sense of personal integrity and self respect.


Character Matters on Sunday, July 24, 2016 at 7 pm EDT (6 pm Central) will be a live broadcast, so I can take your calls at (718) 717-8296.

In Sheep’s Clothing is the definitive guide to understanding and dealing with manipulative people. And Character Disturbance helps you identify the many types of disturbed characters in your life. If you’re in or are trying to recover from a toxic relationship, you might find How Did We End Up Here? or The Judas Syndrome just the resource you’ve been looking for. And because so many have asked for it, look for my new book on this and all the other “ten commandments” of sound character development, scheduled for release at the end of the summer.

99 thoughts on “Habitual Liars and Their Agendas

      1. Liars are clever, they stare at you, but hardly talk or when they do the story not add up and no empathy about death, they have an agenda and texts very strange and limited and self absorbed don’t tell them you know try and distance yourself, they try manipulation and tell different people different stories, so seen as the victim
        One lied about his home, one minute tube to South London, the next meeting tube to St James, then works in a school, and then works in office
        Clothing gives them away if single etc wd have clothing but wears clothing underdressed as probably a wife or a child and can’t be found out and lack of remorse of death strange sentences
        ‘There dead’ cold eyes odd and keeps leaving room or leaving table
        Cold ( never tell them where your going)
        Money issues ( single but never goes away, trips, hobbies, concerts shopping) narcissist characters try and control a situation with words
        ‘let’s see’
        ‘Hope not disappointed ‘
        ‘I forgot
        ‘once they know you are free (,they try stalking or get others to do it tactics or in contrast they don’t bother
        Frankly don’t bother as there just analysing you to see what they can get
        Odd disappear envious also
        Sadly they don’t change leave them to it!!!!!

    1. My daughter .boy that g girl can lie.then turn around and make you think you n the wrong….I can’t trust her…

    2. I read this blog/article in search of healing for myself, as I am a habitual/pathological liar, and my daughter since the age of 7 or 8 suffers from the same condition with the only difference being that I was raised in habitual childhood trauma/abuse, and she had not. I’ve intimated to my own spouse that, from what I can sum up on my own, I lie as a reflex based on a simple, yet incredibly powerful fear of disappointing others. It’s almost as if I’m deeply afraid of whomever is asking me something and I believe the answer will make them very angry with me, so I lie to avoid their wrath, whether that is a very real concern (like when I was a child), or completely unsubstantiated remains largely pointless my in immediate reaction to lie.

      This being said, my wife is very much aware of my condition, and I’ve spent the last 10 years or so trying my best (with many stumbles) to eradicate this condition from my psyche, with moderate levels of success. We now see the same behavior in my daughter, and so my goal is now to be that vulnerable with her about this so she sees it’s not okay, but it can be cured, and someone does understand her.

      So everyone knows, myself, and my daughter are completely aware of our reality, and I have spent many nights up crying my eyes out because I can’t seem to completely erase this condition, but after seeing it in my daughter I know it to be both genetic, and treatable if caught early.

      If you know someone like this who can convey genuine contrition to you (because there are in fact some who are emotionless, and do seek to use those they come into contact with as my father also has this condition) I urge you to help them find the treatment they need. Some of us really want nothing more than to stop because we know how badly it destroys our lives, and the lives of those we care about. We just need someone to believe we want to be a person they can believe again… with the necessary help to eradicate this condition.

  1. So how do you handle or approach a habitual liar, a pathological liar? When they are family and you have known for years they had this problem – Do you call them out on it or stay complacent and quiet? You don’t want to ‘hurt’ them, but you know they need to admit to themselves and to you that they are full of it. The problems they create for everyone around them as well as themselves is extreme because it’s been ‘allowed’ for so long. I think my Mother was an enabler… she was also not confrontational, so the rest of us in the family are not either.

    1. You can’t change a person with a personality disorder…and they cannot change themselves either. Nor, do they want to. If they tell you they will or they have changed, run, It simply is not possible. It is how they live their lives. It is part of their personality and their personality disorder. It is ingrained in their psyche.

      P/SPs will always be a toxin to others, family especially. Unfortunately, the only answer is NO CONTACT.


        1. I know this is difficult.

          You are doing the right thing for you, and believe it or not, for your sister as well. As weird as that sounds.

          Cheers and all the best to you.

    2. Sue
      I don’t think that calling them out on the lying will hurt them. I don’t think they will change their behavior either. Best to avoid the person if you can. I think you just accept the fact they are liars and not to be believed at all times. My daughter lies to me and I called her out on it last week. Maybe she’ll change, maybe she won’t. But she is aware that I’m onto her. Hopefully she will work to better her character.

  2. Lying, is for some a necessity. When they tell the truth the feel a fraud. We had a DC in Britain whose whole persona was a fake. Jan Ludvik Hoch was a big bussiness man Who
    reinvented him self. His stage name was Robert Maxwell.

  3. Thank you Dr Simon. I feel validated reading your work. Finally after 3 years seeing my therapist twice weekly and on anti anxiety medications and reeducating myself about the phenomenon of character disturbance am I finally finding myself again. I was traumatised, shattered, fragmented for a very long time , post finding out my second husband was leading a double life with both men and women , transvestites etc etc … And this from a man who was supposedly a respectable pillar of our community.

    Thank you for researching and writing extensively on this matter. There are many people who suffer in silence after being victimised by these monsters who walk among us.

    My oldest son is finishing his masters in clinical psychology. As part of his graduation gift I am presenting him with your books so he becomes the kind of therapist who will be a benefit to people and identify the evil cloaked as good. Unfortunately I was re victimised by a marriage counsellor who had no idea how to manage the sociopath I was with… The best he could do was warn me not to confront him with his deeds as he may become depressed! Then proceeded to advise the sociopath to read Elkhart Tolle and the Dalai Lama and all would be well if only I could find it in my heart to forgive him ….. I was finding it hard to breath and live at the time and found myself hospitalised as I felt I was losing my mind.

    Thank you for validating me, and a whole community out there who have been victims of such predators and incompetent mental health ‘professionals’.

    Kindly, Sophie

    1. I’d run fast from a therapist who suggested to read Eckhart Tolle. I had one suggest Byron Katie, who is just as bad.

  4. Ugggghhhh–pathological liars. Every time they tell the truth they feel they have just handed you a gift, or that they are somehow kissing your a**. It gets under their skin because they feel so above everyone.

    They can be pan handling and dumpster diving to survive and they STILL think they are above you. It’s unfathomable how resistant and persistent their self image is. And it’s their ginormous ego that would have to change first, to facilitate any other change. I agree that it’s not likely to happen, without hard work, on their part. And even then, the behavior might be controlled but not the motivating force behind it. Huge, whacky, out of control ego.

    1. You are right………when they do give some truth and honesty they have done YOU some favor and now you owe them. You will be made to pay in some way.

  5. Even after being separated a year and a half and the divorce almost final – my husband can still make me question myself.
    When he says things, he says them with such conviction. I really never know if it’s the truth or not. If I catch him in a lie – which is difficult to do on the spot – He always has the perfect excuse and explanation.
    I’m really tired of doubting myself.
    He recently told our grown son that he’s hoping that after the divorce I will eventually get over “things” and we can date. What?!? He wouldn’t see a marriage counselor, I caught him lying to my parents – and to me. He still wont take responsibility but his part in our problems.
    The thing is, I don’t think he thinks he’s lying. I really don’t.

    1. My 34 year old son is just like that. He has hurt me many times, one in particular, so deeply, that I now have no contact with him. He is actually a diagnosed sociopath.

      He says things with absolute conviction, that I know are lies. He has been like that since the time that he could talk and was off from the minute that he was born. It is like he does not even know that he is lying! He says things to me like ‘remember that time when we…” and, well, that time NEVER happened. He literally gaslights and causes doubt in others…but only for a second. I am so wise to him now, that, like I said above, I can have no more contact.

      Son or not, he is pathological and I do not believe that one can have a relationship with someone who is pathological. Ther is no truth. There is no trust.

      1. Jean, Noel (If you don’t mind I shortened)
        I have felt the same way about the lying. The lies can be so ridiculously stupid. Jean, I would say that the STBX is trying to save face with your son. Yes, I believe he knows he’s lying, the CD is looking for something, always ask yourself with these kind whats in it for them. The CD may want to look like the victim, moping and crying the blues of how you left him and how much he wants you back.

        The CD then puts the onus on you for the divorce, eventually, after telling the lie so many times he may come to superficially, believe the lie, especially, when you reject any advances he may consider getting back with you. Its about appearances, damage control, what others will think and he wants to be the puppet master in this arena.

        Then on the other hand he may believe this as his truth, never having wanted to divorce in the first place. Did the CD want the divorce? I don’t know, if he didn’t he may very well engage in fantasies of getting back with you. Changing and true remorse is another thing. I would say unless the CD has a real “Come to Jesus moment” it is another fabrication that makes his life acceptable.

        Noel, it is interesting that you say this about your son and if I may ask did you ever get the feeling from little on “He was a drummer that marched to his own tune?” I ask this in regards to a DCN I have dealt with, their mother made this remark to me and I shrugged it off as perhaps, that individual just liked to do things their way, kind of their personality trait, not necessarily bad.

        In retrospect, it was a giant red flag. I have found in the end deep down inside, the CD know they are lying, they just want to believe their lies. The little god complex says “because I say it is so therefore it is.”

        1. Oh, YES. I have always had that feeling…SON has always seemed ‘off’ from the time that he was born. He has always marched to a different drum. He does not agree with anyone. He thinks that only he is right about everything. This is his most annoying quality, actually. If you say the sky is blue, he will argue it. He seems charming and oddly eccentric when you first meet him…it is all a front…his mask eventually slips and his psychopathic/sociopathics/narcissistic personality reveals itself. Every time. He has been diagnosed by 3 professionals, three times throughout his 34 years.

          He has lied throughout his entire life. It is like he was born to lie! Sounds silly, but it’s true. He leaves a path of destroyed relationships in his wake, and then tries to make everyone feel sorry for him.

          1. noelgallagirl,

            I’ve observed a couple of young children that are noticeably different and have evil/bad ways about them. I understand what you are talking about and do believe in some people their brains are wired differently, that the brain is damaged in some way. It’s a known fact that some people, after having a traumatic brain injury, do show bad character traits, totally different from before-injury.

        2. I can’t even trust the “come to Jesus” moments. Seriously. They are almost worse. I have been manipulated into staying longer than I know I should have. My husband stopped me from leaving our 27 year marriage 4 years ago by saying “Wait…let’s read the Bible together and pray and see what happens.” And I stayed. He said what he knew I wanted to hear. And the abuse, lies and manipulations became worse. He compared me to other women (our youngest daughters age) and the leching and flirting increased. I stopped all physical contact with him a year and a half ago…and NOW, he SEES his “error” and has “repented” and had “no clue it was hurting me”. He picks my brains on my response to a sermon or a passage of Scripture and then posts it on FB or writes a “sermon” on his computer and saves it in case he ever is asked to “preach”, or shares it with the men’s group as though it were his own revelation. Two therapy sessions and he “had an epiphany” and this too should convince me to stay and take some more. Those professing a “come to Jesus moment” are nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing and WORSE than others because now you can add spiritual abuse to the mix!!! The Word of God is used against me on a regular basis…and the lies are attached to “As God is my witness”. And when I’m already falling apart from all these things, he will text me messages like: “Good morning beautiful. I pray the Lord bless you and increase your joy today.” And I. JUST. CAN’T. ANYMORE.

          1. Vicki,
            When I get the chance to write in depth I’ve got a lot to say on this topic, as do others, on how to PREPARE to leave. Don’t tell him yet that you’re leaving. You’ve got some work to do to leave at your best advantage. Hang tight. Perhaps Eudox or BOTV or Andy or other regulars, Joey have some helpful tips.
            Keep blogging here and keep reading. We’ll help you out of this with some money hopefully and your sanity.

          2. Vicki,

            Believe me, you have not yet seen how ugly that man will get when you leave, so you must prepare. Get your banking in order, gather your important papers, snoop around. SNOOP SNOOP SNOOP! Save some money if possible. Secure a job. Know where all the money is, account numbers, etc. Open your own bank account without him knowing. Gather your family heirlooms. Don’t let him know what you’re reading. Delete your browsing history from your computer. Know what your financial status is. Gather your car titles.
            I learned the hard way, leaving before thinking the plan through, and paid for it dearly. Like you, I could not stand it.
            If you need paper evidence for future divorce proceedings, now is the time to gather it.
            Do Not Let Him Know You’re Leaving – yet – till you are fully prepared and your ducks are in a row. Then you can slam the door in the jackass’s face.

          3. Vicki, Lucy,
            This was the only place to reply. Vicki, Lucy is right on the money with what she is telling you, she knows because she went through it.
            I would encourage to keep posting. You will get to know us and find support and validation on what you are going through. Also, input on what you need to do next to CYA.

            The slime of the world and I consider the worst CDNSPAths are the ones that hide in the churches and believe me the churches are full of them. I stayed to long for faith based reasons, do not let this parasite intimidate you.

            Read this blog and others, obtain as much information as you and most of all PLAN, PLAn,Plan. No one deserves this kind of mind abuse, know you are right in deciding to leave and be free.

            Take care for now and know you are welcome.

          4. I hope this posts in the right place. Lucy is EXACTLY right. I made the decision to leave 2 months prior to leaving. That gave me the time to open my own accounts, etc. I’m the one that did the finances so mine was more of waiting until I had the money to leave, which wasn’t until I got my tax return. Even then, it took me another month. My ex was an unemployed, alcoholic and pathological liar. I had no other option but to do the finances, otherwise we w’d have lost everything. It was too close as it was.
            Document, document, document. Just so you know, not all snooping will be admissible. RECORD, RECORD, RECORD!! Android has an awesome, auto recorder that will record every single phone call you make (FREE) and will upload them to your cloud. All you’ll need to do is delete the ones you don’t need afterwards. I now have an iPhone and am desperately trying to find a substitute. I have figured out what to do in the meantime, but there have been several phone conversations I wish I had recorded. Also record any face-to-face conversations. Most phones have a recording app available.
            Prior to leaving, I actually told my immediate boss first (of course that always depends on your relationship with them) and explained what was most likely going to happen. And I am very glad I did, because the ex is now making threats to send “letters” to those “higher-ups”. Who knows what’s going to be included. I am trying not to worry about that, because I’ve done nothing wrong. That’s a struggle.
            I also learned the hard way about not letting him know what I was reading. That has also become a weapon. And of course, be careful what you post online. I posted a question on one forum, but used my regular login to do so. A screenshot has been sent to me.
            Have a game plan. I found actually found several blogs recently that helped me out. One suggested to ask the following questions:
            1)What is most important to you?
            2)What is the end goal?
            3)Ask the right questions – what arguments is he going to make? Am I being realistic?
            4)Don’t focus on what they ARE, but focus on what they’re DOING (trust me, their crazy will eventually come out to play to everyone else)
            5)Be reasonable at all times.
            I’ve actually started keeping a journal both to keep records and make notes in (car insurance quotes, a ‘to do’ list, etc). Unfortunately I haven’t used it as much as I should have but it’s come in handy when I need to jot down something that triggers a memory.

            If you have kids, don’t use them as leverage (of course) but you have to find a way to let them come to their own conclusions about the other parent. Deep down, they know who they can count on and eventually, they’ll figure it out.

      2. Noelgallagirl,

        How incredibly painful. I am so sorry for you. It has to be one of the worst things a parent can go through. Please keep posting here, or just reading. If we can be of any help, (I’m sure I speak for everybody) we will do our utmost.

        1. Thank you so much LisaO. I belong to Lovefraud. That website has literally saved me from feeling crazy. I have come a long way and now feel that I can actually help others as well.

          I finally have zero contact with 34 year old SON for almost a year. (I cannot write or say the word ‘my’ before the word SON any more. I lost the ability to do that, this past year).

          I will keep on posting! I can’t not post when I feel that I either need support or that I want to help someone else who does :)

          1. Noellgallagirl,

            Is it OK if I call you Noel? And as LisaO commented please keep posting, everyone will help you. You describe my X and also, my son is like this too. I can’t have a relationship with him either. He complains and argues about everything. I have a whole family of CDNSP to deal with.

            I understand your pain and we do suffer from the loss of having an authentic relationship with our loved ones. It is very difficult to cut them out of our lives, regardless we still love them but at the same time we know it is an abusive and dysfunctional relationship. The most loving thing you can do to express your caring is to interact with them as little as possible or go NC.

            Their goal unfortunately, is to tear us down. They respect strength and you need to show him you will not tolerate his abuse and it is abuse. My son uses the F word which I don’t permit in my home. Son claims his vulgarity is part of who he is. If I don’t accept his manner of speech then I don’t accept him.

            This is shear lunacy and a power play on their part. It’s about control and defining your reality. When a relationship comes to this point a healthy individual will back off and cut this person out of their lives. It is difficult to do, we are talking about survival and sons are miserable despots. I applaud your tenacity and endurance to see and deal with, especially our own child.

            Be kind to yourself and gain as much knowledge as possible, this will be your strength. I find praying for my loved ones is helpful and release the burden at the foot of the cross.

            Please keep posting, we gain knowledge and strength from each other. I used the word mindf***ing because I have no other word that fits so properly. The CDNSP are using mind control and gas lighting methods to gain a position of control and in reality they want to enslave us. This is very sad but true.

            Hold your ground and do not waiver, our sons will be back but the surprise they will not anticipate is your resolve and strength. I am glad you found Dr. Simons site and look forward to your posts. Your story and strength gives me strength to persevere and hold onto my values. I look forward to hearing more of your story but also how you endure.


          2. Yes, of course you may call me Noel!

            Thank you so much for your heartfelt post. I am sorry for your plight as well. It is just like my own. We often forget that there are others
            out there like us. Thank you for reminding me. It does help so much to be affirmed and validated.

            You are so correct about continuing to gain knowledge. that also helps immensely. It is a strange phenomenon that having NC is actually not just good for me, but also for SON. (I refer to him only as SON nowadays, without the word ‘my’ in front of it any more). It seems that when he is in my life, a awful and dysfunctional dance is all that occurs.

            Your last paragraph…SON will be back, but will be surprised at the strength and resolve. Yes! Absolutely. He has tried and I have not waivered.

            Cheers, and please accept my deepest thanks.

    2. Jean
      Don’t ever forget who you are. Don’t let the manipulative lying husband suck you back into his spell
      Once you quit having contact with him you will find yourself again and love yourself. I know this – I’m living it. My husband (the divorce is still ongoing) is extremely toxic. I cannot stand to hear his voice, the sight of him, the emails maker cringe.
      They love to hang onto is, don’t they, and keep up the charade. Too much time wasted – let’s move on.

      1. That is how I feel about P/SP ‘SON’.

        I cannot stand to hear his voice, or see his face, or even talk about him. There is nothing real or good in him. How tragic is that?

        He is the most toxic person that I know and that, indeed, really is sad.

        He is aware of this, and STILL tries to contact me. He NEEDS me in his like as a parental cover for how he wishes to appear to others. I am no longer on board and do not sanction his behavior. I have had to remove myself 100% from his life.

        1. noelgallagirl

          I’m sure that must have been a difficult choice for you but one that needed to be done in order for you to avoid all the stress and grief he brought into your life.
          My chest tightens when I read an email or even talk about the CDN. And I’ve lived apart for a year and a half, and going through this never-ending divorce he still tries to destroy me in any way he can. I hate it — and as BOTV says, the divorce isn’t even the end of it. They have what she calls Pay Pal. Oh boy. He needs me for his selfish reasons but I need NO part of him.

          1. Precisely. I’ve had the hardest year ever. This is the year that I realized what SON is and what I have to do in order to live.

            I wish for you a quick resolution to the P’SP in your life as well.

          2. Hi Lucy,

            The twisted warped minds of these individuals never forget they want to get even, they carry their grudges for years. The CDN cannot stand when they are not on top in the position of one up man-ship. From the mouth of a revengeful, dwelling on getting even CDN, its called “Pay Back Pal.”

        2. Noelgallagirl,

          I understand what you are saying, that person was my father, my X and my son not to mention siblings. The hard part is to get them out of our heads. They are toxic and they don’t care.

          You don’t mention a husband or other children. I hate to say this but they are looking for money. I would encourage you to have honest people advocate for your health care and an honest power of attorney for your finances. I excluded my children from my will, this puts up another boundary and enforces my NC.

          What you are expressing is of epidemic proportions in our society today. We need to stay strong and hold onto our values. Truth is our foundation and weapon that will protect us. Yes, they do need our cover to appear normal to suck in new victims. I will not be a party to their immoral conduct and I applaud your ability to not interact with their deceitful game.

          1. I have a husband who is the father of SON. We have been together for almost 40 years (since we were 14). We have no other children…not after SON…no way.

            My husband is not quite on the same page as me yet, but he is getting there. Too much bad stuff has happened over the years with SON. Especially destructive pathological lying.

            Thank you for what you said here. I am determined to leave NOTHING to SON when we are gone. I will spend it all before I go :)

      2. Lucy,
        I’m really trying, but it is difficult right now to see any light at the end of the tunnel. I moved out 19 months ago and filed 13 months ago. The divorce is still dragging and money is very tight with both attorney’s monthly fees coming in regularly. On top of everything else I am having real anxiety about money.
        I find it very surreal that a 41 year marriage has come to this and that he won’t even admit the seriousness of all the lies and deceit. It does make me feel strange and doubt myself.

        1. Jean,
          I’m going through it as well, moved out 18 months ago and filed 17 months ago, have spent enormous amount of money on attorney fees, had to take out loans to do so. He’s playing legal games (being a disbarred attorney) and his attorney is playing along with it, his attorney has the reputation of a sleazebag who will do anything for money . Yes money is tight. The marriage was 33 years and the SB husband won’t admit to any lies and deceit either. Has the nerve to call me names. I know his game though. And I know who I am. My SB (SB is a reference used several posts ago by Theresa – Shit Bag) has spent all savings he could get his hands on now wants half of my pension and savings through my employer, money that he could not touch because it’s in my name. I totally understand.
          Please don’t doubt yourself. You know who you are . We’ve been toyed with for years. What we thought was truth was not.
          I understand the anxiety. I have it as well. I don’t sleep well. I worry worry worry. I thought I knew my future as far as money is concerned and now that is all tipsy turvy. I am clueless of what my future will be. I went from a grand home to living with a friend in a tiny house, with no shower, and I am grateful she extended her home to me. I am away from the SB, the black cloud that looms over him.
          I know, the court situation is in itself anxiety producing. It moves so slowly. Takes all our money. Money that we need to start a new life. It’s awful.
          I feel there is no other course to take though. I cannot continue to live with a crazy, whoremonger, gambler, liar, manipulator, disgusting excuse of a man. Lies on top of lies. It’s pure craziness. I don’t know how else to describe it.
          I’m fighting the fight though. I have to. Seems so do you. We have to have funds to live out our life. These scumbags need to pay for what they’ve done to our lives.
          I’m hanging in there and please hang in there with me.

        2. Jean, Lucy,
          So glad you are posting, please stay here and we will help you through this. It took me almost 3 years and all we worked for went up in smoke. Bonfire of the Vanities. They will do anything to protect themselves and anything to hurt you, in their twisted thinking they want to make you squirm like the maggots they have become.

          Whatever, you do do not let him see that you are upset, if you can say nothing to him and go NC the better. Let it all be via an email and just the facts, don’t let him pull your emotional strings, pour out all your frustration here.

          For once I am having a good day and have a plethora of messes to clean-up and to many clothes. I went to Bible study last night and it really helped, I am making friends at the church and they have been supportive.

          Hang in there Jeannie and Lucy never forgot about you while you
          weren’t posting. Lucy is a real trooper and has a heart of gold, you have a good friend, we all care about you. AndyD is going through a difficult too, and if I may, I know everyone here will help you.

          You take care Kindred Spirit and blessings

        3. Ladies, did we draw the short straw or what? 18 year marriage, 22 together…sociopath/psychopath, covert, essence of manipulation Getz his mask yanked. Sadistic and knows no boundaries — he nearly destroyed me.
          “oh yeah?” I said. “I’m weak?? The hell i am! I lived through YOU!”
          I try to limit the time I run those old movies through my head – I pick up more and more of his behavior and the whole experience has left me fragmented and struggling with understanding he wasnt at all authentic. Oh, he was authenticalauthentically a sadistic psychopath. My good ol best buddy bud husband pulled out all the stops and, .although determined to destroy me, failed. Thankfully, he moved in with his craigslist find (that he groomed and love bombed to the max) and I can soon go no contact – healing will take forfrigginever, I’m afraid. We are not alone.

    3. About the last part, “he doesn’t think he’s lying”… i think I’ve experienced this with someone as well… it’s almost as though he re-writes history and buys into his revised version… like “that’s the way i want things to be/have happened, so that’s the way it is”

      1. Holly,

        Well put… history rewriting is just “that’s the way I want things to have happened, so that’s the way it is”.
        And, it is amazing when liar recites rewritten history so confidently, it makes one doubt and wonder “maybe that is how things happened, after all he/she is so confident about it”.

  6. The psycho who targeted me, (many years ago now), was a liar. His lies were always huge but subtle– so not easily detectable. A really crafty and clever liar will compartmentalise their lives in such a way that they can maintain a body of lies, for one group of friends, associations, etc…and file it away when need be.

    For other subgroups of associates they have altered or different stories altogether, as Dr.Simon mentions. They lead double lives, triple lives, quadruple lives.

    Problems arise for them, when their files become corrupted — or subgroups come into contact with one another. They have so many balls in the air, or files on the go, they don’t realize they have been hacked.

    I hacked into the P’s life or lives, after his failed attempt to hijack my life. I was able to indirectly alert his wife, who cleaned him out and left town. He is unable, because of international law, to recoup his losses. This was not my intent, but a logical consequence of lying to your mate and painting a terrible picture of her to others.

    As most people are trusting, (because they are honest) the pathological liar can go incredibly far, riding that wave of trust. They don’t seem to understand that trust is not limitless, even on the part of those who are trusting by nature. People can and will lash out, or walk out on them, when the gig is up.

    And then it is just a matter of keeping the contents of dumpsters clear in their minds because that is where it can lead.

    1. LisaO,

      Love that one “contents of dumpsters.” No wonder most of them in old age seem to go nuts and lose a sense reality and I don’t mean dementia. Just the the thought of a bankers box makes me cringe. I needed a good belly laugh, you have a unique way of putting things.

      The CDN had a real ability for listening to every slight, tragedy, negative gossip, whatever, and have instant recall of all the facts surrounding an incident even if it occurred 40 years ago. What an amazing mind, to be able to keep track of all this minuscule trash . What is more amazing is what they could had accomplished with their lives to benefit mankind if they had filled their minds with caring and compassionate thoughts, words and deeds.

      Powerhouses of destruction and despair, what a legacy to leave this world.

      Yes, I remember you telling us about the CDNP and his wife. I think in your case you did the woman a real service.

      It’s great your back posting!

  7. Powerhouses of destruction. Ain’t that the truth, Btov! And thanks for your compliments! It is good to have more time to post here again.

    I had to handle the situation carefully. His wife is haughty and a tough customer — highly intelligent, insecure and was very proud of her (male equivalent) of a trophy husband. Some trophy though! Talk about a massive booby prize!

    And yes, imagine being able to elevate lying to a sadistic art form using the vast gifts God has given you. Agreed, it is unfathomable. They enjoy the hunt, the kill, the duping delight it engenders. It helps reinforce their arrogance.

    I think some of them are just plain wired differently.

    1. LisaO,

      I agree likewise, some of them are wired differently. I believe they are addicted to the thrill of the hunt, toying with their prey and especially the mindf*****g. I learned this from a psychologist Dr. who was Special Opps in Vietnam with two purple hearts. If anyone knew predators it was him.

      This Dr. was brilliant, sad to say he is retired now. He taught me many things most Dr.s have no clue to and I know he agreed with most of Dr. Simons work.

      The CDN I am thinking of is definitely wired differently. All and all they know they are liars and are deceitful, they know what they are doing and must always be held accountable for their actions. If we forget this we may pay a heavy price for our naivety. I do believe most CDN can change their thought processes, they prefer not to.

      I believe there are studies that indicate that a change in thought processes can be altered in how the brain perceives and processes information. I understand some CDN can relearn different techniques in dealing with there environment. It all boils down to their Choice.

      1. Interesting, that you use the word mindf***ing.

        That is how I describe ‘SON’.

        He is an expert at mindf***ery.

        1. Noel,

          You are very welcomed, I am glad to help and perhaps you will be able to help me too. Everyone on this site is supportive and has good insight.

          I would encourage you to purchase Dr. Simons four books if you haven’t read them. AndyD suggested the best book to read if one is to enlighten another is: In Sheeps Clothing by Dr. Simon. This may be a good source of eye opening recognition for your husband. The book explains the CD completely, in utter simplicity.

          Just my opinion, if your son can’t work you over he will work on your husband. Knowledge is power, but whatever you do, don’t give your son the book. Son will use it to his advantage, you don’t want to educate your son, it will only make him more cunning.

          1. On my goodness! You are absolutely spot on!

            SON is fully aware that I am done, however, SON is also fully aware that my husband is not quite ‘where I am’ yet. Yes, SON attempts to work on him.

            You are obviously wise to how these ‘characters’ work and get through life. Cunning is a great word to describe it.

      2. Oh, and ‘SON’, feels that there is nothing wrong with him and that he does not need to change,

        Very few of them truly want to. They believe that they are superior and the rest of us are mere idiots because we ‘feel’ too much. We are too emotional, which to them, is an asinine quality.

        I don’t buy into that a P/SP can be helped at all. Their brains are basically missing the humaness. It shows up in a brain scan. I do not believe that can be cured.

    2. Oh my god, you’ve met my husband! A charming, smiling powerhouse of destruction! A giant Petri dish growing little lies here and there, intelligent but sonehow remarkably forgetful when it comes to things he’s said and done!
      Embarrassed and ashamed at being duped, snookered to the n-th degree. Yeah yeah, not my fault I got snookered, he takes top honors in love bombing, gas-lighting, and finding your Achilles department — but there were some things early on that I wish I had said aloud. Ahh, it wouldn’t have changed anything. But had i said those things…i’d feel better today. The new conquest (a double score as he got her to leave her husband, whoo hoo! Score!) will be wondering soon enough……

  8. Noelgallagurl,

    Chilling. There’s been more than half a lifetime of confusion for you, I’d imagine, wondering exactly what was wrong with him, until you figured it out last year!

    1. Yes, it has been beyond difficult. The past 34 years of my life has ‘sucked’. I am determined to not have any more of that life.

      I want to make the rest of my life wonderful and I am now on my way to just that :)

  9. How early does one make a diagnosis? My son is going on 12. He lies frequently about nothing, is often disrespectful but can vacillate quickly to charming as well, doesn’t understand boundaries, and is possibly on the ‘spectrum’.

    1. Hi DL,

      I am sorry to hear you are having these problems. It is very difficult when ones own child is acting this way and wanting to do something to stop the destructive road they have chosen. The most important thing is you realize there is serious problem and are searching for answers.

      Knowing what we do compared to years ago, I would seek out a good Dr. that is well versed in character disorders and have your son evaluated. They can do testing that can give one a good idea of what is wrong. I wouldn’t wait to long, with therapy the Dr. may be able to work with your family to help correct some of your sons behavioral problems.

      I would recommend you read the archives and order Dr. Simons books
      In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disordered another good book is People of the Lie by Dr. Scott Peck. The more you educate yourself the easier it will be for you to deal with your son. You will become more aware of when he is trying to manipulating you and you will not be in the dark anymore.

      Take very good care and I hope you keep on posting and let us know how you are doing. Thank you for sharing, my opinon is the more we bring these issues out into the open the more knowledge we gain, becoming proactive in looking for answers the better chance we have to find therapies that can help so many.

  10. Noelgallagirl,

    I hope you are well, and hope you keep posting. The subject you raised is one close to my heart also.

    1. Thank you so much BTOV.

      I am as alright as I can be. Always waiting, it seems, for the next mindf***. Hopefully, it will never come…lol…but we all know better.

      I just want my husband to really see that absolute no contact with ‘SON’ is the only way through all of this. It is taking him longer, as we are two different people, I guess, and do not ‘go’ at the same speed.

      I will be here always, on this fabulous supportive site. I wish to help others as well, not just myself :)

      1. noelgallagirl

        I feel bad for your husband. It’s difficult to accept the fact that your own will plot and plan to use you for their selfish needs. You want to believe they are nice decent people, even when they aren’t. It’s hard to accept. Hopefully he accepts is soon. Maybe he should start reading up on the subject. It sure helped me. As soon as I accepted that this person (my STBX soon-to-be-ex) was not what he used to be (or I thought he was anyway) and that he is indeed not a decent person, it became easier to deal with, easier to withdraw from. You can help your husband see the light. We are so much better off NC, or as little as possible, aren’t we? Life is hard enough without all that extra BS shoved in our face.

        1. OMG, yes! No contact is the ONLY way.

          I can not agree with you more, Linda, I want nothing more than for my husband to see what needs to be done. He already knows what SON is, and actually diagnosed THREE TIMES. I think my husband does not want SON to feel ‘abandoned’ by him (even though SON does and can not feel that). I also believe that my husband thinks that he can ‘change’ SON and illicit emotions and feelings from him so that my husband can have the father/son relationship that others have (they have never had one yet and SON is 34). I feel bad for my husband too, in that he cannot seem to accept how we actually will have to live for the rest of our days. It interferes with my husband’s emotional needs.

          I tried to get my husband to read all the things that I have, to read my online ‘therapy’ that has helped me to come this far, to partake in some himself. He is adamant that he will not. It seems like he does not want to know any more, lest he have to make that HARD change in his life that is IMPERATIVE that he makes.

          Thank you again, Linda, for your caring and support. You ans BTOV are beautiful souls.

        2. noelgallagirl,

          Completely agree with following, “You want to believe they are nice decent people, even when they aren’t. It’s hard to accept.”
          And, their niceness, if any, is completely focused on almighty ‘I, Me, Myself’

          I will strongly recommend that you ask your husband to visit this blog or read book In Sheeps Clothing. If he is already half-way to enlightenment, I am sure he will find that useful.

  11. Noel,
    Your very kind, and thank you for the compliments. I am trying give back in kind, paying forward to all those who have helped me, and what they asked is I help another. I am glad you are posting and look forward to your insight given we are dealing with similar situations.

    Just welcome, all the others here are very kind and caring individuals who have been there and know. We give each other strength.

  12. Jeanie,

    How are you today? It’s best we keep busy when our worries are extreme. I woke up, immediately thinking about my trouble. But my little guy, 2 year old grandson had spent the night and all those worries went away. I’m fortunate to have him in my life. He wakes up happy. He actually had a little jump to his step this morning. I said, “You’re a happy boy!” He smiles and says “happy!”. Wouldn’t it be something if we awoke like that? I’ll tell you, not living under the same roof at SB is nice, I do awaken much more peaceful than awakening in the same house as him, Mr. Black Cloud all grumpy and shady.
    Some day our divorces were finalize.
    Don’t become weak! This is our only chance to fight for what is rightfully ours. Once it’s over it’s over, we can’t come back and recoup. And we have the rest of our life to live out. Jeanie, you’ve got to fight for it. He’s certainly fighting for his share and yours. They count on wearing us down and us giving in – giving them more than they deserve. The SB in my life does not know my strength, doesn’t know who he’s dealing with, because I have changed. He old tricks no longer work. And I still have a little contact per email, because so many things are happening, but I try to keep that contact even a little as possible. And so much of what little contact I do have it so degrading, demeaning, lying, belittling, abusive, condescending, misleading, threatening. Who needs that? The coward is scared, scared he’s going to be exposed in court for what he is, scared he’s going to be poor in his older years because he wasted the money that should have been saved.
    Jeanie, now is not the time to crash. Maybe for a day or two, but don’t let him see it, hear of it. Crash for a day then get back up and start a new day.
    I really want to see you prevail.

  13. Did you all see the news item about a self-identified psychopath girl killed her brother’s GF, saying she was just looking for her first kill? They are getting bolder, even more brazen….

    1. Vera,
      So glad to hear from you, how are you? I have thought of you so many times and the burden your carry.

      How is your father? I took care of my CDN father for a year before he passed and it wasn’t easy, I got through it and tried to take make it into a positive. I admire you for your loyalty. Not many will take care of their parents nowadays. My mom is not doing well and I told her if and when she feels she can’t live on her own she is welcomed in my home.

      Glad you are posting again and welcome back.
      (((((Big Hug))))))

      1. Vera and all,

        Vera, you posted this simple but so true comment long ago and I never forgot it.

        Rationalize = Rational Lies!

        1. BTOV, you warm the cockles of my heart. :-)

          Yeah, I am still being the caregiver. I escaped for two months and went away citing health reasons (and they were real), and that restored me quite a bit. Fortunately, the various symptoms I was suffering from was stress, not a cancer returning. Yay!

          My father is slowly weakening, but still mostly lucid. There is always something, last weekend it was nosebleeds, this weekend it’s the runs. He makes sure to spread the nasty everywhere.

          But he basically doesn’t have the umph to play the mean N game any more. So being here is not that bad, and I make the decisions now, about most things. He accepts it. I am laying down plans for later. Life is actually pretty good, and I am being productive.

          My biggest problem right now is that I don’t have anyone I can trust to come by a few times a week to give me a break, or to let me take a trip. Gotta figure that one out. I got a nurse once a week, and Life Alert bracelet, and extra loud door bell with visual effects, and a house cleaner who’s a real sweetie and went shopping with him while I was away.

          So far, it’s doable, especially now that he seems very different from the person I knew my whole life. It’s kinda weird, but it’s as though he decided that he had to let me be the boss, for his own survival.

          I hope you can offer your mom home care when the time comes. Institutions are not very nice, even the plush ones, I can’t imagine him surviving in one. He’d be lost.

          Hugs to you too m’dear!

          1. Vera,

            You have a strength I could only hope for, to care for one who has been not so good for/to you. That’s the humanity in you. And not expecting anything back.
            I do hope you can find someone to give you relief. I cannot imagine how worn down a caregiver can get. I’ve never been in that position, but my BF has, and still harbors ill-will towards the sister who was of no help.
            It was good hearing from your again.

    1. AndyD,

      Yes, how are you doing in all this. I know it must be very hard, it is very different being the man on the receiving end.

      My neighbor is a man and he is going through this. I gave him Dr. Simon’s book, How Did we End up Here. I will get another copy In Sheep’s Clothing and give him that one too. I think you are right, that is the best book and covers everything. It’s a shame because this man is such a great guy and father to his two sons. Simply put he was to good to her.

      1. Jeannie,

        I was reading back in the archives today. I know you were posting way back into November where I was reading. I was confused because we had a Jackie posting for awhile too, that’s where I got a little confused. Lucy, was worried sick about you, hoping you would post again. I hope Jackie is OK too, I believe she was from England.

        It’s not an easy road by no means, you have come so far to give up now. Believe in yourself, know that you can do it, he doesn’t believe you can and I would be quiet about it. The people who don’t stick with you aren’t the people you need in your life anyway. Time alone is good, when we can feel at peace with ourselves and withstand the solitude we have overcome a large hurdle.

        It’s not easy to be alone, I think many times that is why we except so much garbage from the CD. It is our inner fear of being alone, at least it was in part for me. Perhaps, I said that wrong, that is where my faith came in, I felt God was with me but I am lonely at times for human companionship. I am very selective though, now days with whom I decide to spend my time. I would rather be alone and lonely forever than be stuck with a CD I can’t get rid of.

        I hope you feel comfortable sharing with us what you are feeling and going through as it will help make you stronger and us too. Lucy has really come a long way and is an inspirational powerhouse of a trooper considering the monstrous things that CDMN put her through. Lucy walked away with nothing to preserve her sanity and integrity, Lucy put herself first, not the stuff. That’s what character is made of, principles and honoring ourselves with healthy self esteem.

        Jeannie, Lucy also has based her actions on being honest in all her dealings with her STBX. You have also acted in good faith and have been honorable. Hopefully, in the end your STBX will be exposed for the SB he is too. Just stay steadfast in your resolve and try to not let him manipulate and lure you into reacting to him. It’s going to get worse before it gets better, I know you can do it, just hang in there and we are all in your corner.

        Jean, we have to think positive, I know its hard, I have difficult times many days too. I know we can do it, we can overcome and we can take back our lives, this is the strength of character the CD saw in us that they coveted and were unable to steal from us. We still have it and with all the knowledge we have and each other I believe we will overcome.

        Hold onto yourself and know you will persevere, above all you have truth on your side and that is a mighty weapon to reckon with. You are lovable and a good person, they are not and don’t ever doubt that.

      2. Ok. I listened to this. I just got the chills. Just last week my mantra was “It’s a new day.”
        “Freedom is mine and I know how I feel”.
        I will have that freedom . . . .

        1. Lucy,
          You are free, the day you walked out and made that final decisions to leave everything behind and save yourself you became free. Your soul, your heart, your mind are free. You severed the umbilical cord and flew out of the prison cage. You came to the realization that “YOU” were more important than anything. When you broke the invisible bonds you took back yourself.

          Now is the time to strengthen the real, alive, authentic Lucy who was bound in chains and servitude to the CDNSB and your materialistic lifestyle and a house. You are free and as time goes on, You, Lucy will grow, you are no longer held down and smothered by these things. I truly admire your fortitude and character to let go of these things to take back yourself, it is not easy.

          For you the transformation will be awe inspiring. This is because you have been truthful with yourself and all involved. Stick to your morale integrity, don’t sell yourself short for a lie. People who tell you to lie are lacking in character themselves and this may e your opportunity to be a role model for these individuals.

          Since you left you have traveled this unknown, dangerous, bumpy and hazardous road full of booby traps and landmines to regain yourself. Your mantra is truthfulness, please don’t give in now. There is nothing to gain but everything to lose.

          The CDN Scumbag is so filthy and dirty in his deeds and everyone will see it. Just sit back and watch, SB will put the noose around his own neck. Be yourself, present the new Lucy who has taken this time to become strong. The Lucy who fights for and with truth , be a real lady and I can guarantee you, heads will turn and you will be respected for your honesty and Courage.

          Believe me when your day in court comes, your true strength is in presenting the truth, no matter the outcome, you will always be the winner by telling the truth.. Justice comes in many forms, it may not be what we think it should be but in the end the CD will have to answer to our maker.

          Lucy, I remember when you first started posting and who you are today is a wonderful and giving person who reaches out and touches others with genuine kindness and concern. You are learning everyday and in return you share and give to others.

          This will be a wild roller coaster ride of a lifetime, SB, oh how he underestimated you, SB thought you would be a piece of pie like all the others he has destroyed. Instead SB will find a shining star of truth, truth comes from a clean heart and the Lord provides a suit of armor that cannot be penetrated. The CD have no idea how to walk this walk and present in truths..

          Divorce day will be a day of reckoning, the truth will set you free. The opposite is true for the CD, the truth will bind the CD in chains, you may not see the binding but they are there all the same.

          Jean and Andy this is the same for you too, your weapon is Truth. I am telling myself the same thing I told you and I must never forget to always deal in truths. The truth will set us free and for that matter everyone.

          Blessings to all.

  14. Jeanie and BOTV

    Wow, thanks for that. It’s true, I left the house with nothing. The STBX is creepy. I’d been locking myself in the bedroom at night.
    And I believe honesty does prevail. I had the conversation yesterday with a friend, who keeps thinking up scenerios of lies for me to tell. I told her yesterday I’ve lived a true and honest life and have no need to lie. I won’t lie. And it will show. The SB is burning his own bridges with his tricks and games and lies and bad treatment of me. It will get him in the end and I will watch him burn.
    Jeanie, the STBX was not always the SB he is now. He was once a decent man. And I do miss that man. But he is so far gone from that person now. Sometimes I do start to feel low thinking about those days, but then I look at the hard reality of the now, and, no, I absolutely do not want him a part of my life. I want him out of my life completely. He is harmful, as is yours. They Harm us.
    You said yourself you’re no longer depressed. See what I mean? It was most likely a situational depression. HIM! And your depression is gone, but you’re sad. Big difference. Have you gotten angry at him yet? Just wait . . . . that’s not a pretty one to deal with. My anger was HUGE. Now it’s there, but small, not overtaking my being.
    As of now my focus is money money money, how to get divorced and still have money. I’m working hard on bringing together documents to show his dissipation of marital funds. He has taken me this far without a reasonable settlement offer, so I’m ready to pin his ***** to the wall in court. He did all these bullish tactics to wear me down – which I had my moments – but what he’s done is make me realize even more he needs to pay for what he’s done. Somewhere came another strength I did not know I had.
    Jeanie, accept the STBX is a low life scum bag out to get what is left of the marital assets. Fight for what is yours. He will not apologize. He is not sorry. He’s an evil ***. I never got an apology. In fact, I got a bigger fight and more insults!
    The less contact the better. Each contact you have with him will bring you down further. He knows how to work on your conscience and he knows you want him to love you. He’s incapable. We have to give up on them. They are indecent. They bring us emotionally nothing good.
    Jeanie you can do this. I’m doing it. BOTV did and is doing it. Divorcing a CDN is hell in itself and it does wear one down. But we have to do it. May as well get the most out of it we possibly can.
    You know what’s really annoying? Since I found out the SB’s misdeeds and up to now three wedding anniversaries have passed. I hate that . . . . . . Ugh, right now the SB is emailing me. Wants to further drive his nails in me. It does not work anymore. Wants so bad to get to me.
    You can do this Jeanie.

  15. I always wonder why my wife lies about simple stuff. She’s not lying about having affairs or where she goes or who she’s going with.

    She lies about things like, “It’s 10:05, do you know if our child is ready to be picked up?” She’ll say, “How would I know?” Then I ask our child and she says, “I texted mom to let her know to pick me up at 10.” I guess the point was for her to be able to be exasperated with me and declare, “Fine. I’LL go pick her up!”

    Daughter came home from vacation. Wife picked her up at the airport. I go upstairs and kiddo is nowhere to be seen. “Where is our daughter?”, I ask. “She went downstairs”, is the reply. Weird. I look downstairs. All the lights are off. No one is down there. I come back upstairs and wife has a smirk on her face. Daughter is outside unpacking her stuff from the car.

    What is the point of these lies? To make me look dumb? I don’t get it. At this point I just laugh because it’s so pitiful.

    1. She’s toying with you, creating unnecessary drama and it’s disrespectful and immature. I’d be annoyed by it. Seems she enjoys bickering. There is probably a more deep rooted issue that needs to be worked out.
      Marriage can be so difficult.

    2. lyingliarslie,

      I think you need to nip the problem before it grows too large. In my marriage of about 10 years, I had noted few small lies from my wife, and at that time I just did not bother much. I should have called her out years ago, then I could have seen the true depth of her character disturbance. Things would have settled long ago, either she improves, or she bugs out.

      From the sound of it, it seems you had been married to her for at least 15-20 years. So, she probably is a milder case… annoying, immature as Lucy put it.
      However if you are just starting the relationship, then very likely worse things are yet come. In either case, call out her behavior, only then you will know more. And, she definitely is a liability.

      My take on both incidents will be…

      “picking from school”
      She is bit irresponsible, bit self-centered, and high degree of immaturity. If she did saw the text, she should have just said, “Oops, Sorry, I forgot, Can you please…” If she saw the text later, she should have informed you later that she missed it.
      I think she is missed the text, and was simply irresponsible, and most importantly wanted to avoid admitting her fault like a unscrupulous fighter will avoid inferior position.

      “where is our daughter”
      If she knew, and still sent you in wrong direction. She just got bit of sadistic pleasure exercising control over you.
      If she did not know, then she just seems to have some compulsion to blurt out something and anything confidently.

      If you just starting out, then I guess worst is yet to come.
      If you had been married for long, then I guess she is a milder annoying case, a burden.

      My suggestion to you will be to call her out. It may be difficult to catch her right at the moment (things become clear only later on). Something like following will help, “If you knew where daughter was, then do not send me in opposite direction. If you did not know where daughter was, then say so. If you thought you saw her going down, then I am curious what made you think so”.
      I think you may benefit from reading “Character Disturbance” book to get more insight into her behavior. Blog also cover same topics, but book is bit better in formal treatment.

  16. Right from the beginning, such folks are all about the business of position and impression management. They’re forever scoping out opportunities, exploiting vulnerabilities, and seeking advantage. A victim’s guts might churn at all the “red flags.” But they tend to discount their instincts and feelings.

    Wow! Were you in the room when this happened to me?
    I interviewed a man for a job in my company. He lied pathologically. He lied that he did not have children and that he was not on Facebook. After he left, I found him on Facebook with photos of his daughter. He even lied about where he lived. His performance was poor and he was trying to manipulate for a higher salary. There were too many red flags. I wrote them down and realized I was dealing with a psychopath. He did not get the job.

    1. I interviewed a woman for a job. She made a good impression over the phone and through email. In person, she was charming and she ranted off her accomplishments. She claimed to have graduated top of her class and received a prestigious scholarship. Funny thing was she misspelled words and continued to misspelled them after having been corrected. She mispronounced the name of the scholarship. I corrected her and she did not use the corrected pronounciation later on. I asked her directly how do you pronounce the scholarship and she said it wrong again. She claimed how she volunteered her time but nothing made sense. Another psychopath who thinks we are dumb and believe everything. It was like a 5th grader claiming to have graduated from Harvard with multiple humanitarian awards.

      1. After reading this article, I will not deal with people who are pathological liars – lying for no reason. I used to make excuses for them, ie, they are insecure, envious, etc but now I see they are predatory and I am prey. No more!

  17. Just read this article and subsequent conversation and loved it! Just getting out of a nine year marriage to someone I now realize I did not know. Now he’s trying to ruin me financially too while he battles his upcoming jail time for sexual assault (not me). It’s amazing to look back over the years and realize all the lying that has happened and to watch him try to continue it. I have to have some contact with him until the house is sold and the possessions are sorted through. I desperately need advice on how to deal with him and protect my family until I can walk away forever from him!

    1. Katy’s,
      there are a few of us posting pretty regularly who are going through solar situations and have loads of advice and experiences to share with you.
      I’m typing on my iPhone and it’s difficult but I will post soon about some experiences. There are things you can do to alleviate some problems And it is a tough road but believe me you have company on this site who will help see you get through. I will repost when I get to my computer.

  18. The author has all the right info. But doesn’t mention these traits are mental disorder. Personality disorder. Cluster b narcissists. They don’t change. Just end the relationship fast. Read book “people of the lie”. They are very disturbed creatures.

  19. Maeghan

    Sorry you’re going through it. Try your best to somehow still enjoy life’s little moments while you go through this because it may take awhile. It can certainly be a life sucker if you don’t have a few tools by which to keep your sanity and strength up.
    Sounds like you’re doing all the right things. I kept a journal of events, conversations, anything of relevance, because as time drags on you can tend to forget details.
    You hang on there and keep posting and reading and you will be just fine.

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