Grandiose Narcissists

Narcissists come in two main varieties: vulnerable (“neurotic”) narcissists and grandiose narcissists (those I refer to in In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance as more character-disturbed or disordered).  Last week’s post  dealt primarily with the more vulnerable, neurotic narcissist (see: Two Main Varieties of Narcissists) and the kinds of problems such folks can bring into a relationship.  But of the two types, grandiose narcissists are even more problematic.  And unfortunately, because of the nature of our culture and times they’re also more prevalent, so they’re worth discussing in greater depth.

Until recently very few mental health professionals distinguished between the two kinds of narcissists. For years, overly applying the theory of neurosis to character problems, almost all believed the egocentric, selfish, egomaniacal among us to be inwardly lacking in self-esteem and therefore vulnerable, trying desperately to compensate for their feelings of inadequacy and allay their anxieties about (and also “prove”) their self-worth. Unfortunately, in our character-disturbed age, there are many folks who engage in grandiose self-appraisal that’s not only genuine but also goes to the core of who they are as a person.  In short, there are folks who sincerely believe “they’re all that!” Their haughtiness is no pretense. And such folks often have an accompanying sense of entitlement to do as they please with and to those whom they perceive as inferior.

There is some research suggesting that compared to females, male narcissists tend to be of the more grandiose type.  But this research is certainly not conclusive on the matter and anyone who’s had to deal with a grandiose narcissist knows how much grief they can cause in a relationship regardless of their gender.

Grandiose narcissists are prone to a particularly insidious type of thinking error. Professionals used to say that they sometimes engage in a “magical” type of thinking common to children – a type of thinking also viewed as a primative “defense mechanism” against emotional pain and anxiety.  Children think in this magical when they imagine something will happen or be a certain way simply because they wish it.  But grandiose narcissists take a much more aggressive, egomaniacal view of reality.  Don’t bore them with the facts. Your facts are only opinion anyway.  Reality – at least as far as they’re concerned – is what they say it is. And this is why they’re so good at the crazy-making tactic of “gaslighting” (for more on this subject see the articles:  (Some Different Views on Gaslighting and Gaslighters and Gaslighting as a Manipulation Tactic: What It Is, Who Does It, and Why).  They often appear so sure they’re right or have the answer and so convincing that everyone else is full of beans that they can make you question your sanity as well as your own sense of reality.

Unlike the more vulnerable or neuriotic type, grandiose narcissists don’t care what you think of them and don’t feel the need to prove themselves.  They know they’re great.  And if you don’t seem to recognize that, they not only have little use for you but also in some ways pity you.  After all, if you only really knew and appreciated who they are and what you were getting in them, you’d be worshiping at their feet night and day.  This is why the grandiose type has no compunction about showing their disdain for all those they see as “beneath” them. Whereas we once thought they belittled others as a way of building up their own sense of self (we used to erroneously think similar things about bullies, too), they’re simply being dismissive of those they view as inferior and therefore unworthy in comparison.  And it’s the dismissive quality of grandiose narcissists that can really get under the skin of their relationship partners.

Confronting grandiose narcissists, even for a professional well-trained in the special tools for dealing with character disturbance, is a particularly challenging enterprise.  I’ll be doing some special training in this area as I begin my tour of professional workshops in just a couple of weeks.  And I’ll have some illustrative vignettes to share in next week’s concluding article on the topic.

Character Matters (Sunday nights at 7 pm EST on UCY.TV) will again be a live broadcast so I can take your calls.

 

72 thoughts on “Grandiose Narcissists

  1. Thank you again! Your articles have been a real lifeline for me. My thread of sanity while my world is falling apart.
    I’m 11 months separated after 40 years of trying to understand exactly why nothing seemed “right” in my relationship with my husband. I spent too many decades thinking I was the problem.
    Our divorce should have only taken 60 days – we are now into month 7. He still will not provide any information while I have had my business valued by an accountant we both approved – and he is now saying he wants a 2nd opinion of it. He just wants more but has not had his own business valued yet. His attorney says it would be premature to share his financials with me at this point.
    I am fighting the sadness and betrayal of it all. Just like our marriage, this has been a one sided divorce – with me being the only one that is giving. He is leading everyone to believe that I am taking him to the cleaners when it is actually the opposite – he is the one that will benefit financially from our divorce. No one knows because I will not talk about it. But it hurts that family and friends think the worst of me. Should I speak up?
    It’s turning into an expensive divorce because he is not cooperating. I want to tell my kids (in their 30’s) but I worry that it will make them angry with me to say anything bad about their father.
    It’s nice to know I’m not alone. Now that he’s showing his true self it’s frightening. It used to be gaslighting and blame. Now he’s outright cruel. This site is where I regain my strength.

    1. Jeannie, believe me, I know how it feels to have no one in your corner. I would advise that you select one true friend and confide in them all your thoughts. As for your children, they won’t understand until maybe after the divorce and they are dealing with him directly and they experience being treated like they don’t matter. This happened with my adult children. He only sees them about twice a year and spends Christmas somewhere else.

      Stand your ground and don’t let his opinions cause you to give in. These are staging tactics to get you to crumble. If you’re quiet, no one will be able to say any thing and eventually they will have experiences with him that will enlighten them. I had a few people that I used to work with and my sister who lived through it with me. They all saw what he truly was. They can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

      1. Very good advice. They will see him for what he is. Sometimes it takes time but just bite the bullet and remember, leaving well is the best revenge..Good luck!

          1. Bina,

            Actually ‘leaving well’ is correct also, especially walking out in style with a smile after you’ve sewn some dead fish into the lining of the curtains……

    2. Jeannie,

      In long run, your actions will speak louder than your words.
      But, in short run, you do need to advertize your actions and that will require stating factual information, “my business is valued, soon it will get valued 2nd time on his request, his business is not even valued so far. End of story.” Now, if someone gets angry with factual data, it is not your problem, there is no need to defend yourself, there is no need to play the blame game, there is no need to be concerned about others’ misplaced concerns.

    3. Jeanie,

      Sorry you’re struggling so much. You and I are in the same boat. I’m in the 11th month of divorce pending and see no end in site ( and I work in the court system.) Same here – I provide the documents, timely and TRUTHFULLY – whereas he is non compliant – and even what he does produce we can’t believe to be true and accurate and fully disclosed.

      Unlike you, I am over the betrayal and now just plain angry and disgusted. The fraud and lying continue even through the divorce proceedings. He ran his business down, lost his professional license, spent all his retirement savings, gambled, drugged, and used prostitutes to the point I think he may he been not only a user but a pimp.

      This divorce is costing me money that I don’t have – I’m going into more debt each month.

      I should be all set to retire comfortably, but now the STBX CD is going after what I managed to save (in my name only) and my pension. He has none left of his.

      As far as telling the family – I’d certainly tell them the truth. Why not? He is what he is. Why should they think, as you did, he was something that he’s not? I let the world know what a scumbag he is. My counselor told me I don’t have to lie to cover up his shady life, that I can tell what I want, or nothing. At first I felt the need to help cover him up. I was humiliated. Not anymore. I’m angry. Why treat cruelty kindly? It gets you nowhere.

      1. Jeanie,

        As a side note, though, my attorney does tell me to shut my mouth. I do have a couple of friends I speak with about these matters, because I need my friends and I need to talk. The concern with me talking too much is that I work in the court system, and it’s just not good idea to share my details with coworkers. I’m working on that. But most days, coworkers ask about the divorce. I say my attorney says not to talk about it.
        I swear, what I have found out has gone on in my marriage seems like a bad movie, surreal almost, but it’s my life, and it happened. I just shake my own head at it all. I could do a six season drama series on Netflix of the goings-on. More drama than anyone would want.

  2. Hi Jeannie,
    So sorry to hear about your grandiose soon to be ex. Relieved for you that YOU find relief here!

    Really hard when you are trying to deal with grown kids, in this situation. It might be important for them to have good thoughts about their father.
    Just out of curiosity, how does he treat waitresses, people in service industry?
    I dated a man briefly, a few decades ago who got off on staring waiters down. Once when I was with him he actually caused a waitress to almost drop her tray. I told him that if he didn’t knock it off, I’d walk out and he wouldn’t hear from me again….ever.

    He used to say things like, “We’re different, special!” I can remember thinking it was so profoundly odd.
    Towards the end of our very short relationship, we were walking home from a restaurant, at night, down a back alley. Nobody was around. I started to pretend I was drunk. I do a really great drunk. I careened down the alley, staggering, dragging him behind me, singing Edith Piaf songs in a slur. He hissed, “stop it. I mean it. stop it!!” That just revved me up more and I responded like I was a biligerant, even more inebriated drunk. “You don’t know me. You have no right to judge me. Yadayadayada. Drunk talk.
    It was so fun. He was SO deeply disturbed by my one minute of wine and roses. And I had no idea why I found it so profoundly entertaining. But now I do. It’s because he had such a grandiose bloviating side to him I knew on some level this would really embarrass the Hell out of him– he who loved to intimidate the ‘little people.’

    1. Thank you Noel and LisaO for your words of encouragement. I am here constantly – reading, getting strength – but I rarely post.
      LisaO – it’s weird – he is nice to servers, but in an almost patronizing way. Difficult to explain. He can act nice – that’s what has always thrown me off so much. I would see a bit of kindness – then a bit of evil. I was never sure which was the real person.

    2. Hi Jeannie,

      I really feel for you, this will not be an easy journey. Mine D took 3 1/2 years and I still have to deal with him and all his CD behavior tactics and things have gotten very bizarre to say the least.

      In a divorce you have the right to have your appraiser and likewise, he can have his. Then to complicate things, you can hire an appraiser to appraise his things and likewise, he can hire and appraiser for yours. Now we have 4 appraisers. This does not include if you have personal property and real estate. All separate appraisers again. He can push it so far even the silverware and dishes will be appraised. This can go on endlessly until everything is rendered valueless. I know I went through it.

      The attorneys love this, they know what the value of your assets are and will continue to build a bill until they know there is relatively nothing left to get. The judge can also order and auction and everything sold if an agreement can’t be reached. Many times the judge doesn’t care because the litigation keeps their calendars filled.

      Attorney’s are good at stringing clients along because you have no clue as to how the divorce proceedings work and your emotional state is used against you by these parasites.

      You said you have adult children, I would think at some point they had to have seen the CD side of their father. Is it possible, and I assume your children know of the D explain to them you can no longer stay married to their dad. Perhaps, considering your X is willing to waste all of I would think of his children’s possible inheritance they might be able to or willing on some level to speak with him. From what you say this may prove fruitless.

      You say there are businesses, do the children have vested interests they could lose because of his vindictive conduct. You don’t have to bad mouth their father but explain the consequences of his behavior for unreasonably cooperating.

      Have you checked if your state is a community property state or not. Educate yourself as much as possible on your state laws pertaining to divorce. Educated yourself as much as possible on CD individuals. Dr. Simon has written 3 great books I would highly recommend. Also, there is a good book out there by, written by an attorney, his last Name Eddy, about divorcing difficult people. I will post his name or some others will chime in.

      My prayers are with you and God bless

  3. I wanted to make an update for those who might be interested, or remember my question on Dr. Simon’s October 16 Posting.

    I wanted to know what others thought of writing a letter to my ex-partner, and another to his family member. I did write to the ex. (I haven’t yet written to the family member. Still thinking about that one.)

    I want to say first, that this is a person who is not violent or vindictive, so I was not concerned for my safety. He is intelligent and articulate.

    The “letter” was more of an exchange of emails that arose from an earlier practical exchange of information. Over a series of emails I began to write what I wanted to say. At first he wrote back in a very predictable manner, and I just shot him down, using what I’ve learned about manipulation, writing no more and no less than required, completely disengaged, to the point, factual and truthful, not giving him any wiggle room. Then he just shut up (after 2 or 3 responses) and didn’t respond anymore to my further emails (because I wasn’t finished yet saying what I wanted to say).

    This was amazing because this is a guy who couldn’t shut the f*** up during our relationship (I can’t believe how much garbage I listened to). A guy, who whenever his previous ex said something offensive, he just dived right in and the two would duke it out over the phone or in email. He wouldn’t stop until he felt he had won the battle of words.

    He disappeared into silence I think because he knew the game was over. He couldn’t fool me anymore or twist the facts. I knew him inside out now. And that was probably making him very uncomfortable. I was no longer useful to him and had become a threat (I read that last bit on another website, and it seems true) because I could not be hooked in anymore and I could expose him and his games.

    How has writing the “letter” helped me? Well I feel better having written it, some sense of closure. And when I forget what I wrote, and feel like tormenting him with more words, I go back and read what I wrote. I can then see that I have written all I wanted and needed to say, I’ve done it well, made my points and he can re-read those emails anytime he likes (if he hasn’t deleted them : ))

    1. Anne,

      I will try to go back and read your October posting. I have spoken with many healthcare professionals regarding the CD’s I have had to deal with. I would say it is so difficult to get any real closure with these individuals. We can get so caught up and I pray that they may just once hear what I am trying to say. The reality for me talking or writing to the CD’s are words lost in the wind.

      I have been told their will never be true closure in a relationship with these folks as they are unable to relate on a mature level, which is true if you think of how many years we spent trying to get through to them. We bare our hearts, souls, and minds and in the end we are not heard, we are rejected again or what we say can be misconstrued and used against us. We engage and keep the crazy making ongoing still hoping.

      I know it is difficult to be ignored and not heard. Whenever, I get the notion to write, write I do. I never send the letter, I may place it in a box, reread it several weeks later or I may tear it up and I am glad I listened to others who suggested to NEVER send it. Perhaps, read it to a trusted friend, if you need to get things out. I have found this advice in dealing with all the CD very sound advice and have never regretted listening to their insight.

      With most of the CD’s I have had to practice NO Contact, they are just to sick for me and I am happier, healthier, staying clear of these people. I think most of the blogs I have read, You Tubes I have listened too and anyone that knows these individuals will recommend not doing it. I am glad I never contacted him or the others I know. I have turned it over to God and pray for his intervention, my way of dealing with it.

      Ultimately, the choice is yours and I know your emotions pull at you and it is very painful. I am glad you are taking the time to weigh this action and are asking for input. I pray all works out for you.

      1. Hi btov,

        Thanks for your input, which is good advice for dealing with some kinds of disturbed characters, probably the worst kinds, like you have had the misfortune to have to deal with.

        I guess I didn’t make myself clear in my posting above: the deed’s been done, the letter (a series of emails) was sent. I posted above to let others know what happened when I wrote the letter, because back in October I had asked for input about whether it was a good idea or not.

        I went ahead and sent it to say what needed to be said to him. Now it’s said. It has helped me to let go.

        1. I have also spent many years saying the same things over and over. It is incomprehensible to me that another adult can simply not hear me – or chooses to not hear me. I really don’t know which one is the case.

          I honestly wanted him to understand and see the problems in our marriage. I wanted to try to repair our marriage, but it was killing me emotionally and physically. After 40 years there is a part of me that still is concerned about his well-being. I don’t understand why I do that because he has made clear that my well-being is not of a concern to him. It is the ultimate betrayal after a lifetime together.

          It just doesn’t make sense and I think that’s why we keep trying to reword things and we say the same things over and over because we can’t really believe that they don’t get it.

          1. Jeanne,
            I understand what you are saying, I feel the same way, it is such a waste of human life, so senseless and meaningless.. At least we can feel and love. I found comfort regardless of what the CD has done to forgive and pray for them. In the end the harm they have done to themselves far out weights what they have done to me.

            I am glad you are here and hope you find comfort, understanding and validation from the posters here.

            Blessings

          2. Jeannie,

            Brain is very powerful and flexible organ. Imagine like this…
            Your words > His ear > His own personalized massive filtering device > His understanding.

            Personalized massive filtering device has deeply ingrained beliefs consisting of me, myself, I, my, me, me, me, ME, I, I, I…

            By the time your word start to reach other end, they will be totally distorted from reality. No one can objectively assess all the complexity of reality, but some people fail miserably even by chimpanzee standard. Not because they are psychotic, but simply because of their strong and misplaced beliefs.

            There is no doubt that he also had marriage full of conflict, it is just that he never could imagine that mutual understanding and sharing will make things better. His beliefs and his failures are his problem.

        2. Anne,

          I’m glad you were able to get your feelings off your chest. If it worked for you that’s great. I know it would not work for me, I’d get bombarded with sarcastic hateful emails and it would only feed his hate frenzy.

      2. BTOV,

        Like the youtuber Narcissism Survivor says on his vids,

        Rule number 1 – No Contact.

        Rule number 2 – No Contact.

        Rule number 3 – No contact.

        He grew up with a Narcissist Mother.

        1. Jackie
          I will find the post I did some months ago about my paraplegic sis. Anyhow, one of the sis’s that comes to see the disabled sis buys her things, takes her out to eat and agreed she would pay for a phone. Well, she got her phone alright, limited minutes which she is to use in talking only to her, the sis gets mad if she uses minutes on someone else, especially me. Now, mind you the supposedly responsible sis is almost 60. I am in stitches now, how ignorant, petty and controlling can one get.

          So I am going to pick up paying the phone bill on my plan. I believe my sis should have the ability to call or be called by whom ever she pleases. Since I decided to put a landline in my sis’s room the other sis won’t call the disabled one. I told her to just wait and give her time and the sis will call again. Maybe, she did some other sneaky things.

          Mind you I have little to do with these individuals except to disseminate medical info regarding her health issues and most the time refuse to ask. If in the end things become to problematic I may move and will bring my sis with me. I have advocated for her for many years and she brightens my life, perhaps, mom will come too.

          My sis is deemed incompetent and has been for several years and I have acted as the POA for at least 8 years. She has had several surgeries one in which she nearly died and I literally slept in her room for 6 weeks caring for her. The others as soon as they see blood, feces, sis has colostomy, run. I take her to all her appointments. Oh well, I think this one is CD and control issues, narcissistic, where on the spectrum remains to be seen.

        2. Jackie,
          Interesting, I have done that NC, NC from the beginning. Interesting you say his mother is a N. My X’s mother was too, he had a love/hate relationship with her. An only child, she was very authoritarian walked around with her hands behind her back like Bonaparte. The father would turn his hearing aide off so he didn’t have to hear her.

          She and I always got along and up until the D I was her APOA too. She was diagnosed with dementia and when I could no longer care for her I had her put into a nursing home.

          Who he hated most his mother, he acted just like her, in the end I thought this must have been how she treated him. See; Alice Miller/Drama of the Gifted Child.

          It’s freezing here, have to go and work on the snow, always drop in for knowledge. Hugs Glad your zipped and well.

          1. Hi BTOV,

            Was he a Golden child? I think that really is callous the way Narcissistic parents pick one child as the favourite, trying to make that child in their image, while the other children are the scapegoat children.

            Walking around with her hands behind her back??? They really DO sound like cartoon characters sometimes don’t they?

            Hugs back BTOV, it’s 3 degrees above freezing in London today, and we’re back to the endless grey skies after one day of sunshine, i hate it!

    2. Anne, considering the specifics of your own experience, you did the right thing. You feel and felt better just getting the last word in, knowing the retreat into silence was CD’s way of ceding the high ground to you.

      The posters on forum I was referencing, were unable to get their head around the CD’s lack of empathy and remorse, after a discard. They kept trying to appeal to the CD’s compassion and emotional reason. Really really sad.

      I wrote the creature who targeted me, after I read up own psychopaths and malignant narcissists. I said that I knew what he was and that his current godawful circumstances were brought on by himself and that I pictured him knocking back cheap booze in his underwear, in some shack somewhere.

      Short and sweet.

  4. Thanks again for a great article, Dr Simon. It is so important to get this message across. We all have to deal with “difficult” people and I think some of us are/were too tolerant because, brought up on the kind of psychological thinking Dr Simon challenges, we didn’t know that the grandiose narcissist type existed. The psychopath in my life was a female who was a self-professed performing arts “guru” and puffed up her ego by taking young hopeful singers’ money, wasting their time and then “eliminating” those who saw through it and started resisting. Charm offensives, putting others down (sometimes publicly) to make them insecure (a pick-up artist tactic, I believe), promising the moon, keeping everyone in the dark and coming down hard on them for talking to one another, changing the “facts” by the minute, taking responsibility for nothing but ownership for everything, right up to the final hurls of insult and the “I never want to hear from you again” – it was all there. It was the worst experience of my life but I have learned from it and can only hope this site is found by people who had far worse and longer-lasting experiences than me.

    I have one question: people I meet tell me that “karma” will get to such people and that they will reap their rewards. Do you believe this, Dr Simon? I don’t know if I believe in karma. Do grandiose narcissists you have met seem happy? What I do believe is that nothing of worth (professionally or personally) can get done by people who treat others in this way, so the best they can do is kid themselves that some miserable accomplishment was a success (I observed this in “my” psychopath).

    1. Angela,

      “karma will get to such people…”.

      I also have people tell me same thing.

      “so the best they can do is kid themselves that some miserable accomplishment was a success”

      And, that is what I tend to answer back. 🙂

      Some of the more severe cases, that will have their whole life flashed in their last breath, will die with a content smile counting all the wins they have had. Some others, in their twilight years, may come to realized the misery they caused to themselves and other. But, whats the point either case from my perspective. If all I am waiting for is other person to realize his mistake, then he just may die with a smile knowing that his last smile may be pissing me off. His last victory! Talk about “some miserable accomplishment” and “rewards”! 😀
      It does not matter how they end. What matters is how I lead my life till my end.

    2. I think the best comeuppance for them would be do die and go to a place that ‘matches their vibration’, in other words, their company is people like themselves, so no fooling anyone. It would drive them mad.

      Just putting it out there for anyone who believes we go on after death.

    3. Angela, Andy, Jackie,

      I hope there comes a point where an ego-maniac can no longer delude himself/herself that miserable accomplishments were anything else than, in fact, miserable accomplishments, which any other copy of them could have done just as well.

      But I guess such a person would just keep telling themselves how special they are just because they lack what they see as limitations in others. What better from their perspective than, like Andy says, dying ” die with a smile knowing that his last smile may be pissing me [sic] off”?

      Losing control over another person and finding another person can be like they (a game-player) are nothing induces rage and feelings of humiliation. It’s anger over losing power. While many people don’t like being shoved aside or unimportant or treated like they are nothing, it seems to me that some instances can be brushed off more easily by normal people than others and even those can be let go. Even so, I think someone, who’s not a narcissist, may still take revenge of some kind on another if perceived humiliation is strong enough.

      Some disordered persons, if they lose control, are indeed just sound and fury. Some retaliate by gossiping, spreading distorted or bogus stories, encouraging others to detach from a target and other such social tactics. There are other means discussed here that I feel I can’t go into, because I don’t understand them enough, someone else can fill in.

      Then there’s what Dr Simon’s mentioned many times. I heard this in one podcast. It’s that when someone says NO to an aggressive person, he/she says “You don’t say no to me!” leading, in the worst case, to murder. Realizing the odds of getting caught and not wanting to be held accountable, a murderer then takes his/her own life.

  5. Isn’t it possible that insecurities are making them inflate their sense of self?

    These people are totally incapable of self examination.

    I think there is a real fear of them facing truth about how they really are.

    The inflated sense of self could be a confabulation?

    1. Gary,
      I think that may definitely be the case for some grandiose narcissists. In my situation I have found that my husband has spent 61 years convincing himself that he can’t confront those insecurities in himself, so he has built a wall that nobody – Not even he can get through.

      I think of him as one of the untouchables. It’s a very sad way to live.

      1. Jeannie,

        I often wonder what my STBX CD thinks of himself. He behaves grandiose, but I think how could someone so screwed up as himself actually think he’s all that? I think he continuously tries to fool even himself that he’s not so bad. I guess it’s that entitlement. I don’t know. He once wrote me in a text “I’m not the monster you think I am.” Yes he is. Never sorry, Never an apology. Never a kind word. I see him as a monster.

    2. Gary,

      I fully well expected a discussion about this. I think the confusion has a lot to do with how researchers in the field have chosen to categorize the two types of narcissists (i.e. “vulnerable” vs. “grandiose”). A self-presentation of what appears as ego-inflation can indeed be a reflection of someone’s inner insecurity. That’s what the “neurotic” or “vulnerable” distinction is all about. But these days, because the other type of narcissism is so much more prevalent (for a lot of sociocultural reasons) it’s a risky to make the assumption that someone behaving in a grandiose manner is covering or compensating for insecurities. The type I prefer to label as the character disturbed or disordered narcissist (which I think is less confusing than using the term “grandiose”) is indeed who they are to the core. They’re not covering or compensating for anything. And sometimes they have money, power, and influence to show for their big egos (although actual evidence of greatness is not really a factor in which type they are). So the short answer is that some individuals who act in a grandiose manner can indeed be narcissists of the “vulnerable” or “neurotic” type, even though in our times such types are quite rare. And there are other signs that can help you determine if that’s the case (see my article on that). The article here, however, is to inform readers about the features of the type that is solidly disturbed in character.

      1. Thanks for replying, George.

        So their sense of self and self esteem comes from dominating others?

        The fisherman who catches and eats a lot of fish doesn’t do so because he has low self esteem.

        Catching a lot of fish and eating (and in this way “dominating” them) is what makes him feel good.

        The relationship between a grandiose narcissist and normal people is like the fisherman and the fish?

        (No, offense to fishermen–I eat plenty of fish.)

        Would Hitler be a grandiose narcissist?

        Can a person change the type of narcissist they are?

        Cheers!

      2. Dr. Simon,
        Thank you so much for the insight and light you shed on these individuals. I deal with ones that are of the garden variety to the CDMN that you write about. I have found in dealing with any of them I have to be consistent, always dealing in facts, never engaging but always in a position of strength. I can never relax around them.

        If I give an inch they want a mile, in essence I have to treat them as children. Conversations almost always in writing even the siblings with my sister I have POA for. I am always polite, to the point and never converse unless I have to.

        It seems they respect strength, my mom said they are afraid of me in that I won’t put up with them. I have my mom to watch over too. When the CD are like this (fear or respect strength) is there anything identifiable in classifying where they are on the continuum.? Or are all CD and N like this.? I would think a S/P could care less. I hope you understand my question.

        Again Dr. Simon you have no idea the knowledge and strength I have gained from your writings and all the posters. I can’t thank you all enough because with this comes a peace from having been in the darkness to now being in the light. It helps me to go forward caring for myself, my disabled sister and mom.

        Blessings

        1. Hi BTOV,

          Very interesting question, i too would like to know this.

          I have read that even Psychopaths avoid someone who knows what they are about and can see through them.

          1. Jackie
            I will find the post I did some months ago about my paraplegic sis. Anyhow, one of the sis’s that comes to see the disabled sis buys her things, takes her out to eat and agreed she would pay for a phone. Well, she got her phone alright, limited minutes which she is to use in talking only to her, the sis gets mad if she uses minutes on someone else, especially me. Now, mind you the supposedly responsible sis is almost 60. I am in stitches now, how ignorant, petty and controlling can one get.

            So I am going to pick up paying the phone bill on my plan. I believe my sis should have the ability to call or be called by whom ever she pleases. Since I decided to put a landline in my sis’s room the other sis won’t call the disabled one. I told her to just wait and give her time and the sis will call again. Maybe, she did some other sneaky things.

            Mind you I have little to do with these individuals except to disseminate medical info regarding her health issues and most the time refuse to ask. If in the end things become to problematic I may move and will bring my sis with me. I have advocated for her for many years and she brightens my life, perhaps, mom will come too.

            My sis is deemed incompetent and has been for several years and I have acted as the POA for at least 8 years. She has had several surgeries one in which she nearly died and I literally slept in her room for 6 weeks caring for her. The others as soon as they see blood, feces, sis has colostomy, run. I take her to all her appointments. Oh well, I think this one is CD and control issues, narcissistic, where on the spectrum remains to be seen.

  6. All,

    I have a question that still I can’t wrap my head around.

    Why does he keep calling me. Now the ex (after 2 1/2 years) wants me to friend him on his Face Book page. I have a small presence on Face Book. I really don’t like Face Book since I see so much “oh, look at all I have!” it appears to be very artificial. For those that can get a more real experience I am really happy that you have had that experience, for me, not so much. But I digress.

    Why does he keep using different ways to try to keep contact me…the dog, his pictures I found, calling to wish me a Happy Thanksgiving (he doesn’t even have Thanksgiving in his country of origin), now Face Book.

    I do not get it. Any insight will help me to not be influenced by his continued bid for contact.

    Thank you,

    Theresa Maria

    1. Teresa K,

      You fulfill some purpose for him, of which I have no idea. He wants to suck you back in. I would not do it, ever. Ignore him. See, even his request for you to friend him on Facebook has you thinking about him . . . . and probably feeling anxious. Nothing good can come of it. They so easily find their way back into our minds. Shut him out.

    2. It’s about power. He wants to draw you in so he can yank you some more. Plain and simple. Stay no contact. It will begin to peter out, with him still trying here and there. It’s up to you to not rise to the bait…

        1. Theresa K
          Vera and Lucy gave you good advice. No Contact, cut the vampire off, don’t give him a drop, not a word except, next time send him an email that you consider him harassing you and you will contact authorities. If he contacts you after that send the police to his door. That, would help slow him down and get the message.

          Your X has taken to much from you already, stay strong and make these the best years of your life. The dog was awarded to you, let him go get another one. The dog is a means to keep the tie between you. And you are right Facebook is not good. Facebook owns all your information, stay private as much as possible.

          Blessings and I pray when the stress lessens you will have lots of new growth.

          1. To Everyone,

            last night was the first time I listened to Dr. Simons live broadcast. I am sorry I haven’t been able to listen before. Dr. Simon goes into more depth on the subject matter presented in the Topic. I would recommend if you haven’t already tuned in give it a try.

            I agree with Dr. Simon the term Grandiose is a poor terminology. I picture a Grandiose as someone rather flamboyant then the truly Charactered individuals they are. I think in years to come we will have a better understanding. They are who they are and it is their choice to hurt and destroy others for their sick egos.

            I believe there is some underlying pain and pathology, we all do to some extent have inner baggage. It is how they chose to deal with it, head strong, all knowing, delusional in their assessments and really do believe they are all that an more.

            My X was interviewed by an attorney for the courts due to his behavior. The attorneys response was “he knows exactly what is going on, he has his head so far up his ass he can’t see the light of day!”

            It is something I must never forget, they plot and plan. Never, ever, will I let anyone of these crazy-making individuals near. Family or no family. Stay as far away as possible.

          2. BTOV,
            I just read what you wrote to Theresa K. And it hits home. That’s why I come to this thread – because even advice for someone else helps me so much.

            I am having trouble tonight. For 40 years I was meek and had things said to me that made me feel small and responsible for ongoing issues. I have been separated for 11 months and occasionally I think of things that were said and I get so angry. My problem is – what do I do with that anger? I want to send him an email telling him what a loser he is. How cruel he has been.

            Tonight I’m thinking about the time I approached him three years ago and asked him to please sleep in our bedroom. He hadn’t for 30 years. He told me to go have an affair. That was the end of that discussion and I was upset for weeks. But he accomplished his goal – he stopped the conversation.

            But like tonight, at times I feel the anger – and I don’t know what to do with it. I just don’t know. But, tonight I have posted this and gotten it out of my system instead of contacting him. That would be a mistake because I’m going on almost 2 months of no contact.
            Thank you guys!

            I would love to hear what some of you have done with your anger when you know it would be a mistake to direct it at the CD. Please share.

          3. Hi Jeannie,
            I am so glad you posted. I read this blog for several years before posting and read Dr. Simons books. I think this is a good question for Dr. Simon. Jeannie this may sound strange, I am a Christian and I litteraly gave it to God. I laid it at the foot of the cross and gave it to Jesus knowing in the end God will be his ultimate judge. Hell fire and brimstone condemned to the Lake of Fire.

            Another release was finally writing and getting to know the others here who are great. People come and go and I pray they have found answers, courage and the strength to go forward. Here it is safe to post and yes others will chime in and give moral support with good advice.

            Another way of taking back your life is No Contact the ultimate blow to their ego. OK Bud I don’t even have a word for you, they hate this more than anything to be ignored, at the same time YOU take yourself back.

            Start being good to yourself, do the things you want to do. Keep posting and will try to help you through this.

            Blessings

  7. Jeanie,

    I too have anger now that I realize the ongoing lies and betrayal and financial abuse et al. that has been done to me. I wish I had an answer. I do believe posting, as BTOV says, is helpful. I’m thankful that I do have good things happening in my life, number one, finding peace now that I’m not under the same roof of that disgusting man. I’m hoping with time the anger will subside. If I get the outcome in the divorce that I think I deserve I think much of the anger will go away, but if I don’t, oh my, the anger will be worse than ever.

    1. Lucy,
      What I asked for when I got before the judge what was fair and equatable and what the law provided for. I came across as the reasonable one and in that everyones eyes were open to whom was the CD. Justice does come in the end we may not see it as we would like to see it but it does come.

      From my experiences in life how do I become a better person, how am I going to let it make me a better person and most of all how can I use these experiences to help others grow, and in that I will grow and the world just a little better place. In Dr. Simons words one at a time.

      Stay on course Lucy, there are going to be many bumps and curves, pot holes too, keep going forward and know we are all in your corner and rooting and praying. Stay Strong. Now I must heed my own advice and get back on my horse. Its not an easy ride far from done, but at least I am here and can smile.

      Blessings

  8. Jeannie, only a direct first strike to their ego, with no chance of retaliation would work. If you are a naturally gentle person, you might find this difficult to do and it might not come off right. However if it makes you feel better, to give it to him in the gonads, metaphorically speaking, it might be a good exercise in assertiveness!

    It’s no use trying to make him feel bad by appealing to his morality or higher self. They don’t have higher selves. They have a low self and then lower selves. He was cruel? As far as he’s concerned that is a big, “what’s not to like?”

    Anger is a weird thing. If we don’t vent, it’s a problem. If we rage internally or externally for too long, we can cause ourselves undue stress.

    After or while dealing with human toxic waste, victims are given advice that seems to come from a rigid, judgemental and morally retarded angle.

    It’s really important to honour the survivor’s indignation anger, rage and not judge it, from a moral perspective.

    I have read and seen some butt stupid things about feelings of revenge, being unhelpful, dangerous etc… To me, this sounds a little like telling a courtroom judge presiding over a violent rape case, not to sentence, because two wrongs don’t make a right.

    1. I think it would abnormal to not have anger. Problem with being abused is that directing the anger at the abuser does absolutely no good, because they just will not own up to it. They aren’t sorry. No remorse. It only makes on angrier. So we have to let it simmer within somehow. To me, the more knowledge I have about the inter workings of a deranged mind and morals I have the less anger I feel. I just see my STBX as a total package of a f-upd mess, ugly and living wrong and miserable. The problem now is when new issues arise with the divorce. There again, I get angry. But with reason. It’s not anger day in and day out, it’s circumstantial anger. It’s just become a part of me. Till I’m completely free —— Some Day!

      1. I read the post from Narcissists Hate it When You Have Their Number. I need to go back and read the the entire topic. I am posting in response to that topic because I tend to lose track of a good post or miss one in the archives if several folks start posting at the same time or I am away for a day. The comments on this topic reminded me of a story a woman I met told me.

        I met a woman who had gone through the whole D process, trial and all, spent 150,000.00 and guess what the judge asked each person at the end of the trial before he would grant the divorce? Did they want a Divorce? She said yes. At the moment he was asked he fell down on his knees and wept uncontrollably, and when he was able to pull himself together enough after sobbing before everyone in the courtroom, he turned to her and begged for forgiveness, admitting it was all his fault, drinking, womanizing, gambling, he admitted to everything and anything “please just give me another chance.”

        Seeing this man, mind you a CEO of a very successful company, fall to his knees in such a contrite manner of humiliation her heart swelled and she forgave him his transgressions. She agreed to not divorce him but give him another chance. He was so good to her, wooed her, bought her gifts including the $20,000 diamond on her finger she showed me.

        At the end of a month he was all moved back in. In the meantime, everything was going swell, better than it ever did. By the time all the paperwork was concluded the case closed and all accounts joint and Him back nice and snug in the house, on the throne, similar inconsistencies started to begin again.

        By the time 6 months rolled around he was out of control, he was his old self but far worse. By the time she caught hold of her breath, he had charged every charge card to the max, every account drained, more credit cards opened and she never saw any of it.

        His response was, “what are you going to do about it?” She was absolutely beside herself. She was in raw shock. It took her 9 months to get him out of the house, in the meantime, he made her life a living hell. He went so far as to get himself admitted to the hospital repeatedly, his heart, back pain you name it, to delay the court process.

        She had to rehire her attorney and go through all the procedural processes of the courts and at every turn in the divorce he stalled and delayed using medical reasons, his heart, and he told everyone she had caused so much stress and heartache he was not well. He used any and every reason to delay the divorce.

        Being who he is and I am aware of the company, I am sure he could get any doctor to write anything he wanted.

        This man kept the divorce from going forward taking an early retirement, having and I am not going to say reworked a lot of things with a smart tax attorney.

        It was now going on 4 years later, another whole trial and she was asked again if she wanted a divorce, of course she did. What do you suppose he said? “But I Love You, please don’t do this to me!” The D was granted on irreconcilable differences. This time $250,000.00 was racked up in additional attorney’s fees, not to mention the loss of retirement accounts, monies that went missing and credit debt run amuck. Mind you 50/50

        Guess what, a year later he was appointed back into a prominent position within the company in Europe. He posted pictures on his Facebook page showing him, (with all his health issues) in Spain with a woman 25 years younger, younger than his daughter. She had spent 25 years of her life with him and was left a wreck. She now had her share of the debt, with the additional attorney’s fees was over a 1/2 million dollars in debt.

        When he had gotten done with pushing it to the limits in the courts and he couldn’t punish her any longer legally, he moved on. He still insisted to everyone, he loved her and it was all her fault and to the very end wanted to work it out.

        Now to me this may have been grandiose grandstanding. I do not like the term, because the word grandiose can leave one who is not versed in the true pathology of these individuals to take lightly the true significance of who these individuals truly are. How sick, warped, corrupt and maliciously vindictive they are. They show no mercy and will stop at nothing to destroy you, leaving you with just enough life so they can laugh in your face.

        These are who the bible talks about, individuals that are sheer evil, I am sure he would had been pleased if she died but that would take the pleasure out of torturing her and making her suffer.

        For any who have doubts or second thoughts after leaving and you have read this blog and similar ones, be ever so careful, these individuals are ever so cunning and deadly. Rarely, do they change, although, I know of two circumstances and after more thought and study I would label them the garden variety not the charactered disordered grandiose narcissist.

        If it is difficult for trained healthcare professionals to ferret out the true identity of these blade runners, look at how difficult it is for someone who is emotionally meshed with one of these to discern the truth.

        Thank you all of you for bringing light to the darkness and we are still digging our way out. Next I can tell a true story for the guys, because their are evil women like this out there too.

        Blessings

        1. BTOV,

          He must have been just shy of a full blown sociopath.

          This story is a strong reminder to stay on guard, and strongly monitor for real sign of change before trusting again. After calling out bad behavior and taking on a character disturbed, do not trust their tears and apologies, instead keep them on very long parole period.
          I am sure she must have observed some signs that things are not really good, but she trusted too easily, failing to realize the depth of character issues in her husband. Gifting a diamond ring, duh! Women should be really careful about men who shower flowers, diamonds, chocolates, and ice creams.

          1. Andy D
            They had a lot of money, she took this as like they got remarried, a new beginning, he never humiliated himself befor anyone. Yes, she trusted to easy, but then this is the limits they will go to get the last word in and pay back pal, its going to be their way. I could have fallen for it and many in the church would had fallen for it too. Her children did. These people really creep me out they are beyond human. Later I’ll tell you the story of what the women did to the men.

          2. AndyD,
            Do we now live an existance where everyone is suspect until proven innocent? I know they are so cunningly vile, it shakes our whole world.

          3. BTOV,

            It is certainly safer to assume everyone is suspect until innocent. 🙂 I think this belief is especially strong after spending long time with a character disturbed person, and realizing their true nature. First reaction, after realizing that there are selfish and aggressive people who go about their business in insidious way whether the other person is parent, child, partner, sibling or friend, is definitely not to trust anyone.

            But, I think most people are still good; slightly off the center, but still good people. And, who isn’t off the center and imperfect, including yours truly Andy D!
            What probably makes a big difference is that character weakness runs in family, maybe partly genetic reasons but definitely lot more environmental factor reasons. So, some people who are innately good, but get raised in bad family suffer most, and they may come to strongly believe that everyone is suspect until proven innocent.

            I think better is to just hold our boundaries no matter who we are dealing with. With time we will come to know who respects our boundary and who doesn’t.

          4. Andy yes, blowtorching, forcing intimacy too soon, setting up a ‘you and me against the world’ relationship, and apparantly, calling them ‘Princess’ for some reason, it’s so common that many Women who know about Narcissists don’t have anything to do with the new Man in their lives once they hear the term.

            I wonder if there is an equivalent term for Women Narcissists?

          5. AndyD,
            Thanks for the input and yes, I agree. Like Jackie the name “Princess and Special” send waving red flags. Is there one that men watch out for? Since we are on this topic once you do have their number they do up the ante of new games the more intelligent the more sophisticated. The tells are a given they can’t camouflage.

          6. BTOV,

            “Is there one that men watch out for?”

            Had I been expert, I won’t be here. 🙂
            My personal early warning signs after having lived with one will be: a strong women who otherwise pretends to be weak or victim, someone who makes offhand and out of context small negative remarks about others (outright character assassination will be big alert), using womanly charm when facing reason or in general doing small womanly things when your gut feeling says that she is lot more that.
            There won’t be hard and fast rule. Even a man gifting a diamond ring, flowers, perfume is perfectly fine. Context matters and how everything fits in with the nature of both parties and their relationship.

            I guess main warning sign comes down to gut feeling that not everything fits perfectly and there is some clinking noise in the machine.

          1. Pure and simple revenge.

            OK, she went back to him but where was the attorney to set up a pre-nup in her favor before she would allow him back into the house.

            Me thinks she got screwed by more than the ex husband.

            My attorney, as I walked out of his office one last time, I said, you know, he will be back and he said “when he does, get in here for a pre-nup.” Just like that. I cannot see myself with him again, although, in the beginning of the aftermath of the divorce I was feeling guilty about leaving him with his medical condition (he will likely need cornea transplants in both eyes at some point), I said that I would care for him during his surgeries. Yes, you heard it right!!!!!

            I actually said that we would probably care for each other in our old age. What a laugh, now. But he took it hook line and sinker for me to tell him again and again that I would be there for him if he needed surgery.

            Case in point: Last year he needed a hernia operation. Who did he call. Me. I told him I could not then reniged and said I would take him home. By that time he had already got someone from his church (yep, he was going to church last I heard) to take him home.

            So I hope that his eye sight continues and in the near distance future I would have moved back to my state of my alma mater and where I still have a few friends.

            Tax law favors the senior in that fair state and it is a lot less expensive where I am now. I would leave now, but I have a part time job and three animals and I have yet to secure Social Security which will begin in 19 months and counting! I have a plan for the animals…don’t worry, they are with me to the end. It is just another problem to deal with the expense of housing them.

            Well, anyway, the lady that took him back should have been counseled by her attorney how to protect herself.

            Just remember, just because they are driving a Beemer and wear custom tailored shirts does not mean they are any better than the sole practitioner with a lot less debt and doesn’t need to wrack up those billables.

            Theresa Maria

          2. Thersa K
            Maybe we all need to move to a climate that is good for our health and start a Golden Girls Club, Good Guys included. We could provide our own service for taking care of our pets and have a community watch program. Perhaps, a possible venture in real-estate. At least its a happy thought.

            Theresa, she should had gone through with the D. She should had kept everything in her name and protected her assets in a Trust. You guys with assets it needs to be protected in a trust.

            Yes, I understand your compassion that is how I ended up taking care of my N dad. Its strange one day when he wasn’t in one of his mean moods I asked him, Daddy how would you describe yourself. He was a handsome man, blonde hair, blue eyes, 6’3″ reminded me of Kurt Douglas. He described himself as “Flamboyant .” The selfish narcissist of the garden variety and very conceited with a crossing the line of several of the grandiose features.

            My dad was difficult to the end, he straddled the fence and at the end asked to be read the 23rd psalm and died. Only God knows.

            I think doctor is on the right course in defining these individuals and I believe their are more than 2. At least their is hope.

            Theresa K, that is a commendable thing to want to help another, turning the other cheek. God bless you, he knows your heart. Take very good care of you too. My little Buddy Bill give me much pleasure and company. The hair is a nightmare though.

            The poster who brought up about the adrenals is right. I am checking into it right now, I am so tired and worn out but my spirt is strong. I will post what I find out.

            All of you kindred spirits, thank you for being you. Love you guys, too.

            Blessings and a good life for you

        2. Yeah, sounds like full blown Psychopath to me too!

          Talk about extreme hoovering???

          BTOV i hope you’re ok, i know you have so much on your plate, sounds like you are in a vipers nest of N’s where you are, stay strong!

          I will have to go back to the previous topic and check posts i think there are some i’ve missed.

          1. Jackie,

            Thank you for asking and they are a den of vipers. Its difficult to keep my head above water sometimes. I was just thinking this morning all that I need to get done but don’t really care. I am so tired all the time and just want peace. The golden years when we should have peace and someone are strewn with disorder and chaos and its tiring having to care for and clean up after and take care of ones self. Two can do so much more than one.

            I have it OK, I just need to make a lot of life decisions, be strong and plan for the rest of my future in a chaotic world. I have met two nice fellows and am not giving up on meeting someone nice . I am in a position of making a nice life for me too. Having no family is difficult, and starting over with most people I know being married doesn’t work. I will tell you these CD individuals are not going to be in my life much longer I would rather be alone……..

            Do you know why the reply button isn’t on every response and why the blue box? Thanks Andy and Timothy for all the insight being fellows. There are a lot of of these women out there and I believe far more then are reported.

          2. BTOV,
            “Do you know why the reply button isn’t on every response”
            There is limited nesting to replies. I think this web-site support 5 level of replies. You should see the blog page and its comments to see what I mean.

      1. AndyD,
        Thank you, I will check it out and thanks for the input on the other questions. Its not that easy to figure some people out and it sure is scary after you have have been through the CD ordeal to be ever so wary. I have not told the Man story yet.

        A doctor I know of divorced his deranged CD wife who was heiress to chain store. Her stippencej each month from the chain was 6 figures. The doc had 2 kids with her and she believe me is a nut job. If he was 5 minutes late with the kids she filed a complaint and off to court. She finally calmed down and the D went through because she had a new Target.

        This doctor was about 47, so relatively young. He met a woman on line and by the end of one year a week after the final D decree he was married and I found out the baby just made the marriage. The doctor is a wonderful humanitarian, unfortunately, I think he may have jumped into a fire without having done the work needed. It just seems in this day and age getting pregnant right away, especially in light of the final divorce, something just doesn’t ring right. I pray I am wrong.

        The irony of the ring is in the final D the man claimed he bought her this expensive diamond ring and it ended up on her side for the original cost since it was still on a charge..

        I am ever so cautious, just because one person does one thing does not mean the intent of another is suspect. I have found that in CDN they want to define you and by calling you a pet name they pick out take away from your personal identity and is part of the objectification process.. This does not always hold true, however, I think there is a lot of validity to it.

        I am glad you fellows are here, to help shed insight from the male perspective.

  9. To All,

    Thanks for all your inputs, advice and stories. It seems we all have a very similar thread in our lives. It’s been a tough week for me. STBX jackass filed another motions against me. He wants to charge me for dissipation of marital estate because I would not file joint tax with him. I filed single married. He claims we could have saved filing joint. He has a criminal history of forgery, is dishonest and lies on record to the Appellate Court, founded, on record. What nerve he has. I will not attach my name to his in any manner, because I cannot believe that what he files is true. I do not want to be in trouble with the IRS. My accountant told me DO NOT FILE ANYTHING WITH HIM! YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING WHAT’S TRUE AND WHAT’S NOT WITH HIS BUSINESS. So here I am yet again paying attorney fees to defend myself. This is why I keep getting angry. It’s continual abuse. What a disgusting man I married. I am paying the price, heavily.

    1. Lucy Brown,
      Yes I know, You may think twice about what you may contact your attorney about. See, about at least 50% or more depending on the case DOSNT MATTER. Your attorney may say so, but it doesn’t. What you may have saved by not contacting the attorney and responding or ignoring the motion, may in the long run save you money, because in the end it will all have to be addressed.

      The judge know you are separate, knows the case, doesn’t take a rocket scientist, demand a final hearing, no more motions, you want a scheduled final hearing or go to trial. Get it done! Save the complaints to the end and crunch the final numbers. This is a win win win for all attorneys that means you are left and the loser in that they all see the good girl upset and she’s a hopping and a popping.

      I just read in one of Dr. Simons topics about the CDN its about:
      1. Position 2. Position 3. Position

      So to me and I say for most attorneys its about racking up fees. I don’t know what you may have left to be sorted out, but I can’t imagine unless they are stringing you along because of the emotionality they can see I would be very careful not to react if you can. I can only tell you and yes the lies my attorney used and unnecessary paperwork, extremely redundant to elicit more fees.

      I am warning you, be ever so cautious because when they know you have nothing left the attorneys will so conveniently with help of corrupt or uncaring judges get the divorce decided. Its so easy to dump everything on the responsible party.

      1. I’m almost ready to get the hearing. Waiting on documents from casinos. I would like to just not file a response to all his motions. Don’t know if my attorney would just not respond. I need to get CDs deposition. But even then it will be fraught will lies so what good is that. Attorney knows I can’t afford all this and am running out of money. Haven’t even gotten to the heart of the case yet. I’ll ask her next motion ignore and get to a hearing stage

  10. I think you need to decide what issues are somewhat of a moot point. We tend to be emotionally charged and wanting to do the right thing compared to them feel we must answer. Weigh the costs of fighting for something that in the end may cost more in terms of emotions and $$$. I know that also in giving an inch they will look for a mile and push the limits.

    I don’t want to ask to much but what is here is nothing for you to worry about, still tread carefully. This individual is going to try to drain you by mounting up attys fees and in the end could just file bankruptcy and I am sure know all the ins and outs and slime balls to boot. It also keeps him getting lots of NS attention which he thrives on.

    I would get a sheet and column out gains and losses vs bills, assets and retirement, insurance which I am sure he is after, your pension. Don’t get yourself so deep that you will be paying off your atty for the next 10 years. I have a good idea what is going on and a trial and depos will cost you a bundle and then the jerk can appeal it. If he does the onus is on him and the process has of complaint has to be a judicial error I believe.

    I believe you have and anyone has the right to file separate especially under this situation, I would let him spin his wheels and address it at the hearing. Its all about division anyway. Ill have to look at how your state laws are.

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