Grandiose Narcissists Don’t Care

Narcissists come in two main varieties: vulnerable and grandiose. And I’ve been posting on the vulnerable type and how such narcissists relate to others. Because they have some vulnerability (i.e. sensitivity), relating to the first type can be trying but still manageable. But grandiose narcissists both regard you and treat you very differently. That makes life with them unbearable at times.  And in the more extreme cases, they place you at risk for all sorts of exploitation.

Two Very Different “Styles” of Relating

Vulnerable narcissists are often a bit clueless about how they come across to others. That’s because they’re completely wrapped up in themselves. So, they don’t pay much attention to the reactions and feelings of others. They can be pretty oblivious the reactions and impressions of others. On the other hand, grandiose narcissists have plenty of awareness. They know well not only how others see them but also how others are impacted by them. The problem with them is not that they’re not aware. Rather, the real problem is that grandiose narcissists simply don’t care. They don’t care what you think of them. They also don’t care how their behavior toward you affects you. It’s always about them. You don’t really matter.

Grandiose Narcissists: What Really Makes the Difference

Grandiose narcissists will use and abuse you. And they’ll do so without compunction. They may see you simply as an object to possess or an opportunity to exploit. That’s because they lack two important capacities: shame and empathy. They don’t care what it says about them that they regard you so callously and disdainfully. The way they see it, they matter and you don’t matter.  And they don’t have feelings of genuine remorse when they take advantage of you. When their empathy and shame deficits are severe, we say their narcissism has become truly malignant. (For more on this topic see: Malignant Narcissism.)

Next week I’ll be giving some examples of how grandiose narcissists conduct themselves in relationships. And I’ll have more to say on how empathy and shame deficits factor into their behavior. Hopefully, commentators who’ve had experiences with these types will also want to chime in.

Character Matters will again air live this Easter Sunday evening at 7 pm EDT (6 pm CDT). We have a new way to patch callers in, so join the conversation at (501) 258-8326.

And as always, thanks so much for recommending my books and this blog to others. Learn more about the two types of narcissists (with examples) in Character Disturbance.

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89 thoughts on “Grandiose Narcissists Don’t Care

    1. If Trump is the only grandiose narcissist you know and have been involved with in some manner, you are living a much more blessed life than 99 percent of the people reading this Dr. Simon post.

      1. MJ,

        If you would like to make a positive contribution to the blog, please do. I look forward to helpful responses like everybody else here.

      2. I agree. If that’s the only narc someone has experience with, well, frankly I’m envious. I think far more people are affected by these nasty/dangerous individuals than I would ever thought.

        My twin sister was diagnosed with a narcissistic personality disorder and is also bi-polar. I saw these traits in her from about late teens… but it wasn’t until her children were removed from her care that a diagnosis was given to the courts. In addition, My soon-to-exhusband is definitely narcissistic. Funny thing is I didn’t see it in him for so long. I guess I made excuses for his controlling behaviour, his insults I put down to a warped sense of humour, his gas-lighting I put down to me losing the plot. I can see it all now… 20 years too late.

        Me and my two boys are currently fighting a huge legal battle with him over finances of the marital home (he removed my name from the deeds – and now he is showing EVERY narcissistic trait there is. My solicitor is amazed by his sudden lack of interest in his kids, his lack of remorse or guilt, his ability to lie about EVERYTHING including things that obviously can’t be true, his lack of empathy, his denial of events that have clearly happened and his arrogance that he can pull the wool over everyone’s eyes. He is even prepared to risk going to court (thinking he can lie to the judge) rather than settle out of court, to punish us and make our lives as difficult as possible to move on. Even though by doing so he risks going to prison (his tax evasion and creative book-keeping would be very, very obvious to any judge).

        He’s with the woman I caught him with (although he still denies an affair). He’s moved on but is not prepared to let me and the boys do the same. He even said as much when we first left. He is still trying to control us with the last thing he has – the marital home. He has even written his own kids out of his will!

        I am glad I eventually had the courage to walk away once I ‘saw the light’ so to speak. I’m worried for my financial future but the freedom I have now is worth every penny. And as for his new partner, well, she was dumped by her husband of 25years when he found out about things… so she’s decided to give things a go with my ex… sadly she has lost a really nice man, her ex husband, and ended up with a narcisttic control freak instead. But with the millions she got in her settlement, I expect my ex is more than happy and maybe he will treat her better as He will have a lot more to lose (financially anyway). Sad, I really don’t think she knows what she’s let herself in for. Despite everything she’s done, I wouldn’t wish him on anyone.

        These narcisttic people sap all your energy, rob you of your self confidence, undermine your ability to trust your own gut instinct.
        If you are fortunate enough not to have your lives touched by such individuals, you are very lucky indeed.

        1. It is hardly enviable for ANYBODY that the leader of the free world is a grandiose narcissist. The effects on the general population are far ranging and very damaging. He is a perfect example of people desperate for change and full of misplaced hope being seduced by a man who is aware but ‘doesn’t care.’

          The individual has become so inured to the narcissism in entertainment, pop culture and the money mad values of our economic climate that they can’t easily recognize a bald faced lying grandiose megalomaniac.

          There is nothing stealthy about him. I would go as far as saying that many politicians are just as bad, but are more careful — better thespians.

          This is the most dreadful part. Either people don’t care that they have elected a deeply pathological individual or they have been that easily duped, mistaking his over the top, rude manner, with rough ‘honesty.’

          There is no need for you to conflate or compare my own personal experiences or those of anyone else, (yourself included)with a general statement about Donald Trump.

          You may not mean to be impolite — but you have to bare in mind that written text tends to present in the negative, unless it it’s very clear it is not meant that way.

          1. LisaO
            I did not like the snarky comments to you regarding “if that’s the only narc”. Clearly there was nothing on your comment to lead to the belief that Trump is your only experience with a narc. You have added so much to this blog and rude comments are inappropriate.
            You clearly said about Trump what I am unable to write so succently as you have he is a clear in your face example of a dangerous narc

        2. Devon Taffy,

          I just reread your post and you are obviously going through a hard time. It’s very tragic the way some marriages spiral down, particularly when there are children involved, even if they are grown.

          I am wondering, though, how someone goes about removing someone’s name from a legal document, like the deed to a house? That would be impossible in my country. How can he do this?

        3. Devon I understand where you are coming from and can honestly say it’s going to be a real shit fight. Narcs don’t like to lose and they have to win at all costs. It’s imperative you arm yourself with as much information about them as possible. I and another lady who lives with me have been screwed over time and time again by grandiose narcissists who generally are malignant because they have no brakes on their behavior we refer to them here as CDMN.

          Having had extensive experience now with both types I am actually grateful for those experiences, but relieved they are now behind me. It shows us our own humanity and how very different we are from them. It also enables us to establish firm boundaries and an ability to spot them a lot sooner. Once spotted I will have nothing do do with them aside the usual societal courtesy but I will not get involved with them in anything else other than polite conversation at best.

          While being involved with the CDMN may be the most brutally painful experience we will ever endure we both agree that without these experiences we would not be the people we are today. We would be none the wiser when meeting other CDMN and may well fall into the trap of their honey pot. However, due to the extreme toxic nature of these types they are now much easier to spot. My friend was married to one for 30 years. I have had many relationships on many different levels with family, friends, co-worders and former relationships and they all cause mass destruction. My daughter is CDMN while she has not been diognosed her malignancy is extreme. While she appears to be outwardly neither vulnerable or grandiose she is certainly sadistic. Her predations are very covert. She managed to turn friends and family against me. She only successfully managed to rope 2 in and used as her flying monkeys. I’ve washed my hands of the lot of them. It took me a while to figure out who the actual head vampire of that lot was. It wasn’t until after she started targeting her brother and his partner her full nature was revealed and they will now have nothing do do with her. Of course she pleads the high road of moral demeanor and drinks deeply from the cup of moral indignation but in doing so she only exposes herself more. Information and knowledge is what is needed more than anything when it comes to these people. Because without it we can become emotional mince meat. I would encourage you to learn as much as you can about them and really know their tactics and strategies because it is our only defense against them. I also suggest you find yourself a very close and trustworthy support group. These people are very capable of making you out to be the monster they are while they plead victim and are quite capable of turning even your closest friends and allies against you.

          Tread with great caution because the battle has only just begun. I too have money still owed to me by one so I’m not quite out of the woods yet but she has no power over me and has lied so much that she too will eventually expose herself for what she is. A lying, malicious envious woman.

        4. DevonTaffy
          Sorry you’re going through the divorce with the narc. Seriously, your description of your soon to be ex sounds just like mine. And they are a nightmare to divorce. They want blood. I feel your pain. Keep fighting the fight. Don’t let that slime bag off easy. He should pay for what he’s done

    2. Nope. Sorry there. He may have ego but he is not a narc. I have live with plenty of them. In one way or another we all have done traits but not being full blown narc

  1. These are the ones that kill you. Your spirit ,your soul,your life.

    My mother always had a sadidistic streek. What the trigger was I do not know. Maybe envy. When she hurt you SHE LIKED IT. My grandmother was the same.
    Keeping a robotic slave behind close doors. She could say and do anything she wanted.
    My brother came round. She used to give away my thing in front of my face and sneer at me. When I whent to collect my things when I moved out.My brother had stolen and taken about £2000 worth,of my things.

  2. I think I know both types and they work closely with each other at work, very interesting case. At first look, you would think grandiose one is the vulnerable one, but it’s the opposite- the one who looked with the signs of empathy -that’s just a very bright fur, and the one who seemed grandiose- is more controlled by that one “more sensitive”. What can I say, after few burns in my skin I managed to break the bubble and now enjoying and analysing the view.

  3. Watching Dr Craig Malkin. They all would appear to be vunrable to start with. The gradiouse part comes from a psychopathic element within them .

    1. I’m going to watch him then. I’m beginning to think they are nothing less than evil monsters in human form. None of them are worth a brass razoo. As Smakintosh so elegantly sums it up – they are pigs, they want to you to lie in the filth with them.

  4. Dema,

    Sam Vaknin talks about covert or inverted narcissism and overt narcissism. According to Vaknin the covert narcissist lives ‘in the shadow’ of the overt narcissist. The overt narcissist provides the technicolor life and social milieu the covert partner craves.

    The narcissist who targeted me was grandiose and malignant but covert. His ‘wife’ was an overt but vulnerable narcissist, involved in the entertainment industry.

    She was the stereotypical drama queen, in the very real sense — hollow, phony and apparently very domineering. It was VERY easy to believe she was as bad as the covert narcissist described.

    But of the two of them, I found out later, she was the vulnerable one, insecure at heart, always chasing supply and not feeling worthy.

    Now her ‘husband,’ Mr. Self Effacing, Noble Spirit and Long Suffering, turned out to be the real controller. But talk about a highly highly skilled liar! To this day, I can’t quite believe how good he was at presenting as humble and downtrodden! OMG. He presented as abused and I am sure I am one of many women who wanted to protect him, save him from his ‘awful’ mate.

    Do I feel guilty? No. My knowledge at that time was limited and I thought I was doing the right thing.

  5. I’m trying to figure out if my ex-husband is vulnerable or a grandiose narcissist. Or just clueless. He is so good at playing the victim and has a seemingly great excuse for all his actions that I get sucked in and confused.
    I’m still having moments of doubt. I have been divorced now for six months from a 41 year marriage. I still tend to have moments of feeling sorry for him. I have learned he goes out of his way to drive past my house – that makes me so sad. He refused marriage counseling and continued to lie and not apologize when called on it –but it is still weird to go from someone being in your life every day for decades to never seeing them or talking to them.
    I realize right now I’m going through a tough time. I have just bought a house and moved in. I’m excited, but it’s very sad to not have someone to share it with.

    I know that I feel this way about him because I still can’t grasp the fact that he would intentionally hurt me and do these things to me – I just cannot understand it. So I try to come up with reasons and explanations in my head. All this rumination tends to make me feel sorry for him and want to contact him to try to understand and explain. But I’ve already spent decades trying to do that and it nearly drove me crazy.

    I just want to feel indifferent towards him. But I may never be able to accomplish that.

    1. Jean this is the part where we allow ourselves to suffer. We have all been down that road. We remain suffering because we still want to believe they are good at heart, we make excuses for their behavior and when we attempt to allow them the benefit of any doubt they will sting us again.

      Once we accept the fact they are not like us that they are in fact demons in disguise things do start to get better. All we can do is actually accept this. Resistance is useless and it will just keep pulling you back into the pain and suffering cycle. A relationship with a narcissist is no relationship at all. It is a one way street – their way. You were his slave and nothing more, they use you they do not love you. They do intentionally hurt you and they will do so again and again because THEY DON’T CARE about you and never did. None of them do. I have included a link to a very brief UTube clip about narcissists. I had to play it over and over again before I got this. It was when I finally accepted that they don’t care and they did intentionally hurt me, I was able to break out of that pain cycle with a resolve of never having another thing to do with them ever again. Please read Dr Simon’s books and listen to as many talks as possible by Meridith Miller of Inner Integration and Lisa Romano – you will find comfort and solace eventually and they address the healing aspects of post narc experience.

      Enjoy your new house and your newly found freedom. You may be fortunate enough to meet somebody else who has empathy and does genuinely care for you because the CDMN does not and never will. That person you fell in love with does not exist and never did. The person he is is the one he reveals when the mask slips. He’s the one whose promises have all been broken, time and time again. He’s the one who lies over and over again. He’s the one who abuses you and demeans you character. He’s the one who projects his anger onto you then accuses you of the very behavior they demonstrate. Narcissists are incapable of seeing you for who you are – you an object for control hence supply. The are actually devoid of humanity or any human virtue needed to provide you with a loving nurturing relationship. They will not change and they will not grow these virtues. The simply don’t have them. They aren’t in their make up.

      Writing about your experiences and opening up about your own inner turmoil and pain it caused helps the healing process. Studying narcissism also helps you understand the nature of the beast. There are many of them out there and you don’t want to expose yourself to another one.

      http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=narcissists+destroy+those+they+can+not+control+utube&view=detail&mid=F1571B7DE9DF74E92750F1571B7DE9DF74E92750&FORM=VIRE

      You will get a wealth of support and assistance here so I would encourage you to continue posting. This site was a God send to me, when I was at my lowest. It was a blessing and I’ve had a lot of support without it I would have gone crazy because I had a double whamy of CDMN abuse. One episode after another with the death of my mother in between. It was a very traumatic time, but I’m out the other side of it now. But a lot stronger, a lot wiser and an even better person for it.

      1. I would recommend watching all SMackintosh’s You tubes . By far the best I have watched. I’ll have to watch them again and hope he has made a few more. One must always be on guard and never forget.

    2. Jean
      I also go through spurts of feeling sad for the STBX because it is sad to see another himN being on a bad state. But Jen back to reality of what kind of mate he was, the reality that he will never be the man you (and myself) want him to be, that tjese men brought to us great harm, hardship, grief, financial devastation, trying to squash our future. These are not good men. And we are only human, see a lost rotten soul is hard to watch. I understand the mixed feelings.
      You just have to accept what he truly is – then it will be easier to handle. Just accept his true self, not the self he tries to fo you into believing
      We are here for you

    3. Jean have you read Dr Simon’s books? They provide very good information on the various types. If you have not done so already please do, In Sheep’s Clothing and/or Character Disturbance < CD contains the same info as ISC but in more detail. I know it's important for you to understand in your own terms. It's always best we know precisely what we are up against with these people. Even contemplating allowing them into our lives again in any capacity is extremely dangerous. How Did We Get Here and Judas Syndrom are the other two. Forewarned is forearmed and knowledge is power.

    1. Patrick – that was brutal.
      I am 61 and have spent every day of my life since 18 with this man. Every day being told there was something wrong with me – with a smile on his face. Every day saying things that hurt me so that he could comfort me. 42 years. So you think I should spend my time trying to figure out why I stayed? I stayed because I believed he loved me.
      It was serious gas lighting – very serious. I stayed because I didn’t understand or know what was going on. I work from home – he told me for years I bored people.
      So yes – After 42 years I’m trying to make sense of things and trying to figure out what part of my life has been real and what has been a joke.
      I didn’t need to hear you say it was basically my fault for staying and I needed to figure out why I did. I didn’t need that.
      I don’t think that you have been in a situation where you were gaslighted by someone you trusted for many decades and I hope you never are.

      1. Jean

        I believe what Patrick was trying to say is it’s more important for you to accept the situation and heal now. This is a dangerous period when we are still in grief and trying to figure out what went wrong. We can start giving them all sorts of benefit of the doubt and bring a lot more suffering into our own lives as a result. Jean from the information you have provided it sounds like hubby was probably CDMN – Character Disturbed Malignant Narcissist. Vulnerables don’t do that and certainly not every day. Vunlerables generally are triggered – but I could be wrong about that and it is difficult to determine. CDMN don’t need triggering – they are just nasty period. To be honest quite frankly it is a waste of time trying to figure out which he was. I think this was why Patrick made that comment. I don’t believe he was saying it was your fault. Trying to figure out which color his is is something you do when you are with them. He is out of your life and it’s important he maintains that status. What is important for all victims of CD abuse is the healing and recovery phase. I have a lady living with me who is your age exactly, she lived with a CDMN probably S or P she has been free of him now for 2 years. She has been living here with me for about 5 weeks – this man stole 30 years of her life and destroyed everything she loved bar her children. She’s recovering now and is the happiest she’s been in a long, long time. You have no idea how prevalent this is in our society. I’m talking these demons from hell are in plague proportions.

        Gaslighting is psychological warfare Jean it’s the emotional equivalent of rape. It’s actually soul murder. I’ve included a couple of links below to a few UTubes which are quite succinct but very helpful in helping us to realise healing is very important and gives a more spiritual insight into what these as Lucy put’s it Shit Bags are.

        Please watch the below UTubes Jean, they will help you in understanding. Then please google Meridith Miller and Lisa A Romano they are wonderful sources of information to assist with adjusting and healing after narcissistic abuse. You are in a very vulnerable state at the moment and it’s important to nurture yourself and make the necessary adjustments to your life. I can say this in earnest, that one day in the not too distant future you may look back and see the entire experience as a blessing in disguise. I know you can’t see that now and you can’t while you are in it. But you will learn and you will grow from this experience and you have support here anytime you need it.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JAUzP4b1X0
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4npMq5jUxrY

        God Bless and hugggggzzzzzzzz

      2. What I was tring to say as DR SIMON wrote in sheep clothing. In getting to know OUR SELVES BETTER. WE must stop OVER INTELLECTUALIZING.
        Trying to understand a disordered person. I did not say in any way it was your fault.

        1. My “reasons” for staying so long Patrick was because I didn’t know – I hadnt figured out he was wearing a lying mask.

          1. Jean,

            We all did. For me 32 years. A decent person has no idea that someone they love is nothing but a mirage of a empty but well trained replicant. I was the frog in the pot, at least we had enough spunk left to jump out, many aren’t that lucky.

            For a while Lucy and were so worried about you. You made it though. It never will make sense because it is senseless. Take your time Jean, whatever, you need, not what someone else says. There will come a time where you will be able to compartmentalize what has happened. When you are ready there are a lot of things you can get involved in, remember to do it in your.

            I know others say to me, its time to move on, easy said by them, they are not wearing my shoes. It took me 5 years and I still have those days of bewilderment. I am grateful he is gone and I have peace and quiet. I can be me, for once in my life, I am me.

            I am so happy you made it, when your down, come here and talk. I should say more, but tend to carry to much on my shoulders. If you read Joey’s post I think he knows me well. Take care Jean, what is so wonderful about this blog is the incredible support, care and concern. We can heal together.
            (((((HUGS)))))

          2. Jean, so glad you’re learning and healing. It does take time. One of the things Patrick’s comment reminded me of was Dr. Simon’s idea that we can’t figure them out. Our brains are not like theirs and we can make ourselves crazy trying to figure out the why, their end game, when it really is something beyond our comprehension. We don’t think or act like the narcissists so trying to understand why they did what they did can cause more pain. I still try to understand but do find comfort knowing that I don’t need to figure it all out. Hope that’s helpful.

      3. Jean
        Yes we do need to spend time to figure them out and that then helps us figure ourselves out.
        After over two years of delving into the whys of my SB, a marriage of 30 plus years, I know understand him and in turn understand myself, as I’m sure you do
        I hope you’ve reached the point where you realize you’re a good hearted kind person who can now enjoy life without the brutal emotional abuse you’ve suffered. It might help you to go no contact with your X since he knows you so well and knows what tender buttons to push. You will get used to life without his presence. And you’ll be more at peace.
        Frankly, I am sick of thinking of the SB and wish I could erase my brain of any thoughts of him. I’m still not divorced, but when I am I am seriously considering being hypnotized to clear my head of that jackass.

        1. Lucy,

          In time it will come. I go for days not thinking about him. The difficult part is that after 6 years there are still leagalites to straighten out. A curious thing, when last sitting in court with him, his head bowed low, like he was afraid and deeply concerned. As soon as he saw things may not go his way the mask was off and the judge seen the evil demon. Instead of pulling himself together with humility and respect for the judge the snake reared it hideous head.

          It is as they say give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. I stayed, calm and collected. I never looked at him, even though I wished I could had seen him. I would had got a better read as to how far more he has declined. It truly is a pathetic sight to see. Revenge, the evil that rots and corrupts their being consumes them. They punish themselves, when they can’t regurgitate their toxic waste on you, they have to re-swallow it.

          I pity the innocent person that may cross his path.

          1. BOTV
            They are pathetic, and you feel sorrow for a minute , then they bite and snap and you’re again reminded they are there to harm you

      4. Jean, you are amazing. To come out of that many years of gaslighting and be able to talk about it shows your deep inner strength. I too was gaslighted and it takes all your self belief away. You end up doubting any gut instrinct you ever had when you are drip fed their nasty poison. For the first time in years, I can now see the wood for the trees. I have stopped punishing myself for believing his lies and manipulation and feel all the better for it. This are cunning individuals who care nothing for the damage they do. However, we have both survived and will be all the better for being away from them. Sending you hugs x

  6. There is a malfunction when they pause the comments due to too much traffic etc you have to re-blog to get the alerts again. Is anybody else having trouble with this?

  7. The US has always had a CDMN as President excluding John F. Kennedy. I am in Australia so I don’t support either GOP or Democrat and care neither for either. Nor do I care for any of this countries Prime Ministers no matter if they are Liberal or Labor. Politicians are in it for one thing POWER over others. Plus they all take their marching orders from the global financiers (the banksters) and big oil. I’m glad that we no longer have to put up with either a Bush or a Clinton in the WH. Books have been written about this mob of psychopathic criminals. Bush Snr makes Ted Bundy look like the Easter Bunny. Clinton Cash by Peter Schweizer and Crisis of Character by Gary J Byrne should be in everyone’s library. Also Dan Emmett wrote another one Within Arm’s Length about the Clintons. Bush Jnr had 63 Articles of Impeachment raised by Congressman Dennis Kucinick back in 2008 – that didn’t make main stream media neither did the full extent of Bill Clinton’s impeachment it was more than just the Lewinski affair. Political Ponerology is another excellent book by Andrew Lobaczewski – from the Political Ponerology site:

    “The original manuscript of this book went into the furnace minutes before a secret police raid in Communist Poland. The second copy, painfully reassembled by scientists working under impossible conditions of violence and repression, was sent via courier to the Vatican. Its receipt was never acknowledged – the manuscript and all valuable data lost. In 1984, the third and final copy was written from memory by the last survivor of the original researchers: Andrew Lobaczewski. Zbigniew Brzezinski blocked its publication”.

    Zbigniew Brzesnski was Obama’s mentor. None of them are any good as far as I can see. Also you might want to watch a documentary called JFK to 911 Everything is a Rich Man’s Trick it’s 3.5 hours long and quite frankly chilling. Bush Snr was behind the Kennedy assasination. He even laughed about the lone gunman story at Gerald Ford’s funeral. No kidding.

    As an independent researcher and free thinker as I see it and like a good many people of the Western World – NO we don’t need anymore psychopaths sitting in the Oval Office I think we’ve had enough.

  8. Thanks Lucy! And all great comments all around. Eudoxia, you have obviously done your homework and life work.

    Jean, I can’t state it any better than the other posters here. I will only add that my imaginary litmus test for a partner now is to picture them in a concentration camp, or any situation where people will sink into depravity if they don’t have strong moral fibre. A CD would steal bread rations from a child, be a snitch…do any number of things to gain a survival edge. The more severely disordered would try to somehow even prosper in some small way from the situation.

    Picture your husband, the poor misbegotten CD stealing bread from a starving child. If you can picture that, try to maintain that focus when you start to feel sorry for him.

    He would throw you under a bus, easily, if there was a need. This isn’t a man. This is hardly what we would call human. Fallen angel or elevated ape? It doesn’t matter, as long as the humanity isn’t there and reciprocity is an issue, you have to start to see him as a victim of his own lack of care and concern for others. In other words, not really a victim at all.

    1. Thanks LisaO! Great imagery – but with my ex I would have to also picture him acting as if he were somehow helping the starving child while he took their bread.
      And how he would have convinced everybody around him that he had done the child a favor as he consumed the child’s bread in the corner with no one seeing.
      How he would be capable of taking that situation and becoming the hero is a mystery to me – but that’s what would happen.

  9. A narcissist is the emotional equivalent to a neanderthal. So, if you don’t mind being handled roughly and treated like an object, go for it. If you want to be an adult and have adult relationships and do adult things, stay far far away from a narcissist because you are essentially expecting an emotional toddler to be able to handle grown up concepts. It’s a recipe for disaster. I admit most of them are so adept at lying and presenting a facade of maturity, it’s easy to be misled or even forget they are really not what they seem. The only REAL they are is REAL FAKE.

  10. Neanderthals lived in nuclear families. Discoveries of elderly or deformed Neanderthal skeletons suggest that they took care of their sick and those who could not care for themselves.

    Narcissists are not Neanderthals. I have Red Hair and about 1% Neanderthal DNA

  11. I still keep seeing psychopaths per quota of the population still being touted by many different authors of books and web sites to still be around 1% of the population. This is total pie in the sky stuff. There are far more out there than just a mere 1%.

    Given the extraordinary amount of people who have had their lives ruined by these sub human species I would have to conclude the actual amount is anywhere between 30 – 40%. What I am particularly alarmed by now – now I know what to look for I think even that quotient is a bit low. What I am really starting to notice is the quality of conversation absent in discussions with either vulnerable or grandiose CD.

    I am starting to really see that everything with these guys is a total energy suck and there is a distinctive pattern of total lack of awareness whenever I am talking to one. When you are in a conversation with one, they have little focus of attention whereas other people will engage you, be present to you. As in an equal exchange of energy will take place. The CD wander – their minds are not really on you or the discussion they appear to be listening but in reality are not fully present . They will nearly always bring the conversation back to them. It is really as if they can’t see you or they are actually absent to the entire exchange happening (unless you are a target for supply). Nothing really alarming that is what they do, what is alarming is the actual amount of them who do it! I’ve now identified quite a few out there who I previously missed and what is even more alarming is some of them I’ve known for years. I’m starting to see patterns of behavior now that I previously missed.

    This is a field of study that should be a life long commitment. By close encounters with these SBs (thanks Lucy for the acronym!) it allows us to see our own shortcomings and areas of co-dependence that allows them to hook us in – our own blind spots. I thought I exposed and revealed a good many of mine previously – obviously not. I am beginning to see that experience with these guys is better than any Uni degree. We get an inside view of not only them but us as well. I am now starting to see the entire cycle – that the toxic tango is actually a two way street but it can only be danced by the unaware. Having this raw, cold blooded exposure and experience with these freaks provides us with a type of armor a new insight into human emotion or absence thereof and allows us to see how our own blind spots allowed us to become mesmerized by them in the first place and get caught up in the toxic tango.

    1. Eudoxia
      First off, you write so well I love to read your posts.
      Your points are well taken and I’m going to pay more attention to the people I’ve surrounded myself with. It will give me a better grip on how to deal – or possibly walk away and not deal with troublesome people any longer

      1. Eudox,

        The most important parts to look for immediately, is body language and the tell. Study, their facial expressions when you talk with them, during your contact with them, there is always a tell, it could be a slip of the tongue or a slip in a momentary facial expression. The more psychopathic ones will lend a very but slight tell, again, verbal or physical. The more acquainted with the study of this kind the more acute your ability to detect them will become.

        I warn you though, the highly covert intelligent ones can feel your presence. Use caution with these kind, they have a keen sense to your abilities to see through them. In all this, to protect yourself you must use you emotional intelligence to knock them off guard. If you have to be in the game, which sometimes one cannot avoid you must gain the upper hand. I do not recommend this but there are ways, only when necessary. I believe you have the sixth sense to do this.

        When the game is on and a serious maneuver must be made, one must have all bases covered.

        1. “slip of the tongue or a slip in a momentary facial expression”

          Micro expressions.
          This is precisely what is caught by sixth sense aka gut feeling. That is why we should trust our gut feeling bit more, instead of relying on spoken words or big gestures or our natural social tendency to mingle. When it comes to people, especially the new contacts, one should trust gut feeling a lot more. At worst, one may turn away few genuine benevolent persons, but even in those cases repeated encounters may see benevolent credentials standing out over a period of time, and one may trust those who first appeared to be dishonest.

          1. Andy
            Well said. The gut feeling does pick up on those minute details. I’d bet our gut sense is accurate nine out of ten times. And I’d bet that I’m lied to and fooled by CDs half the time Need to trust my gut more often

          2. The body language is very telling. My ex would never look at me during a discussion – even a so called pleasant discussion. I noticed over the last few years that he would always look off to the side. Never at me.
            How did I go so many years without noticing that?

        2. BTOV

          I’ve already encountered the dangerous ones, the one was the local woman who went after me big time and another one was someone I met when all this was going down. The woman is a serial relationship destroyer and malicious liar she’s very nasty and has screwed over a good deal of people. The male appeared an ally but was in it for himself. He used the entire situation to his advantage and I caught him out. He is one of the ones I’m polite to socially but will never allow him anywhere near my inner circle. Put it this way when I sniff one out I give them no cause to come after me. But it took a considerable amount of suffering to be able to sniff them out.

          I do take on board what you are saying though. I took on a few of them without sufficient understanding of their capabilities. I know that now and it won’t happen again.

          Lucy – discernment is the key, I am very particular as to whom I allow close to me these days. Everyone else stays at arm’s length. Be polite by all means, even friendly but not close. No dating LOL etc. I have no difficulty determining those who are empathetic those are usually the ones I sync with.

          AndyD – gut instinct/6th sense yep all plays into the equation and I find that certain things set off my internal alarm and I pay close attention to this at all times, now especially as I allowed that to slip in the past not anymore.

          These days I pretty well keep to myself. I don’t involve myself with too many people at all and the ones who I do have in my inner circle are those I can trust. There are always others of course on the periphery but again I don’t let them too close to me. I am not the same person I was. I’ve closed a part of me off to others who are not in my immediate circle. It’s dangerous to be authentic when around a CD. I would go so far as to say it’s dangerous being authentic around anybody until you actually get to know them a bit better. Again it comes down to discernment and whether you are in sync with them or not.

    2. Please read Dr Martha Stouts book The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless versus the Rest of Us . It is very good. She says that it is about 4%, which means 1in 25 people have NO CONSCIENCE. I loved this book. She is one clever lady.

      1. Patrick thanks for the recommendation but I’m booked out at present! LOL I’m waiting on The People of the Lie and The Road Less Traveled by M Scott Peck and Dark Souls and The Phoenix Spirit by Sarah Strudwick.

        I have read Without Conscience, Snakes in Suites and Mask of Sanity. In fact I read Without Conscience twice, then loaned it out to my boss so as to warn him about his boss! LOL. These books and it sounds like Martha Stout’s book discusses and addresses the predatory type the CDMNSP. The number I’m talking about in the percentile are reflective of the other types – the lower end type – Borderline, Histrionic, Paranoid PDs etc.

        I am not suggesting that the 35% are all CDMNSP. That figure originally came from a psychiatrist who put the percentages on a range that was cumulative taking into consideration the least effected (personality disorders) through to the maximum effected (sadistic predatory types). You may have 1 in 25 who is CDMNSP then you might have another 5 or so who are personality disordered or even if they are just emotionally immature makes them risky. Simply because they don’t take personal responsibility for their behavior and that makes them a liability on those who do. I have made the decision to only have people in my life who take personal responsibility for themselves and their own behavior and who have clearly demonstrated social responsibility – due care, courtesy and consideration of and for others. What is the point of trying to enjoy life if your are around somebody easily triggered? You are too busy treading on egg shells so as to avoid accidentally treading on one of their frogs lest you get your head bitten off. They are too precious, hence too much hard work. But I am talking specifically about those who have already abdicated self responsibility. There are people out there due to other circumstances who are in these situations and have brought a lot of sadness into their lives who are genuinely seeking support and guidance to assist them to turn their lives around. I will be glad to help these people. But if somebody wants to sit there and see problems with every solution offered then these people do not want to assume self responsibility and are victims in need of rescue not advice. They can drown in their own self pity I’m not wasting my life energy on them. Might sound a bit harsh but I’m not interested in being a drop down screen for somebody else projections. I gave that one up as a bad joke because it was always on me. But I’ve learned my lesson and learned it well.

          1. Patrick,

            Thanks, I have never done this before. I read this book several years ago, but always good to refresh ones minds. So much comes at us to deal with daily. Would you mind explaining how the audio book works. I have an I Pod which I am sure that would work on, with all the drama going on never had a chance to use it.

            BTW a great site for Adult Children of Narcissists (ACON), however, Anna, dosen’t blog that much anymore. Two good sites:
            Narcissists Suck and House of Mirrors

            Again, thank you!

          2. Excellent Patrick thank you very much. I’ll download that and do just that! As far as I am concerned we can NEVER know enough about these vile creatures.

  12. ,AndyD, Lucy.

    This also will account for those moments, extremely, brief your thinking process, will tell you that didn’t sound quite right. The next moment you are right on track in the convo, with the CD. However, when we become attuned to our own bodies and thought processes and by this I mean living, breathing and living in truth, our authentic selves , your other senses will kick in too. You will pick up subtleties you overlooked and didn’t see before. A brief change in tone, a slight stutter, a raise of the eyebrow, a movement in the hand, the CD’s posture. All of these things are a tell and once you have discernment, which is a gift from God, you will pick up on all these nuances.

    Always remember, You will know them by their fruit!

  13. Twice in my life I have had experiences where the hair stood up on the back of my neck around people and I acted on it by total avoidance. One was a cab driver who was subsequently charged with rape while on the job, within a month of my getting in his cab and deciding I’d request a different driver in the future. The other I will never know. He was a bit of a drifter, so don’t know his background.

    But as far as people not paying attention to us when we are talking to them, I don’t know if I would go so far as diagnosing them with a personality disorder. If it’s a persistent pattern and the person is a friend, it’s probably a good idea to mention it to them.

    Some people, like myself on a good day, are super expressive and pack a lot of information about topics of interest (to me) into a conversation. The other party may be overwhelmed trying to process it all.

    In that case, my friends might glance to the side or not come back with anything because they truly have nothing to say on the matter. Other times, I go on like a broken record about people who get on my nerves. Again, interesting to me but repetitive and not necessarily interesting to anybody else. I know I have to be really careful about beating a dead horse and boring the ever loving s*** out of people in conversation.

    I have to agree that true psychopathy, in the past, was under reported because it was assumed that most P’s were criminal psychopaths and would be behind bars. Now that the cat is out of the bag and we realize that ‘they walk among us,’ we have to be wary of the pendulum effect where we see them everywhere.

    I haven’t read Political Ponerology, but know of it. I do peruse the online interactive forum community and have noticed cult-like behavior arranging itself around the idea that we are surrounded by large numbers of psychopaths.

    Eudoxia, when you state the number of psychopaths, percentage wise, as being around 40%, I am assuming (and correct me if I am wrong,) that you may have frequented a forum whose founder feels that this many people are what she describes as ‘organic portals?’

    I don’t mean to be adversarial and so appreciate what you write here, I would just urge a little caution if you are frequenting this woman’s forum or her ‘news’ site. It is probably a good idea, to read Jon Ronson’s writings, too. He feels there is a real danger of seeing psychopathy too readily.

    1. LisaO,

      Repetitive like a broken record. We have been injected with the CDMNSP internal toxic venom at the same time stealing our soul. If not spewed out like the broken record but rather we need to vomit and vomit this poison out of us in order to break free. In essence we must cleanse ourselves and replace and replant our authentic selves relying on the strength of our higher power. For me that is God and only HE, can cleanse of from these unholy ones and make us whole again. With our knowledge, we are the Watchers.

  14. LisaO

    The number I quoted above was originally 35% and quoted by a psychiatrist in an article. That figure consisted of tiers where the percentages were taken across a spectrum ranging from mild (vulnerable) to extreme predators. If I still had to the article I’d post the link. I am unaware of the forum you speak about and don’t frequent forums other than here. I am familiar with the reference to “organic portals” however and have been for a long time.

    My suggestion of 40% was in reference to reflecting back over the years to people I’ve known who I thought at the time had a few issues whether it was in a professional or personal relationship. In hindsight I believe it might be a good more than just a few issues and it encompasses character traits considerably more than just not paying attention i.e. people trying to set you up, frame you etc, slander, lie excessively. Also coming from a small community it’s not difficult to get to know people a bit better than you would in cities. When I look around at the locals the numbers of people who I would not get involved with other than polite conversation would be about 30 out of 90 so that’s roughly a third. These are people who I would not say are all necessarily all CD but they are those whose moral compass isn’t pointed in the same direction mine is and as their behavior is less than acceptable then they get the red light. People who lie, steal, cheat, blame others, underhandedness – people who I refer to as low functioning. I have no time for people like that. Coupled with people who have reported having serious encounters with CD those numbers get higher. There is a lot more to it and I don’t use those figures lightly. There are others who chose to associate with them knowing what they are like. That’s great they can go for it. I just won’t be joining them at parties any time soon. People are not all the same.

    Also gut feeling and intuition plays a very important role in making the determination. They have a distinct “vibe” about them. Whether it’s a a slight nuance or something said I can feel a presence that let’s say is not within my own frequency. I’ve never heard of Jon Ronson so I’ll check him out. I would prefer it if those numbers were a lot less, however, I’m not optimistic about that.

    Again Lisa I’m not sure of whom you speak or any forum but I take on board a wealth of knowledge and have been doing so for a long time. I appreciate your concern and words of caution but I find that any place or organization or following could be considered a cult including Christianity. I am very capable of making healthy determinations as to what sits with me or does not. As I see it people are entitled to their beliefs and their freedom to interact with whomever they chose as long as no harm is done to others then there is no violation. I have long gotten over the left vs right; black vs white etc. Polarized thinking leads to unnecessary arguments and divisions within mankind. I take on a broad spectrum of information and don’t limit myself to x,y or z.

  15. Eudoxia,

    From your original post citing percentages, it’s not clear whether you are referring to psychopathy or character disorders. I took it to mean psychopathy.

    My own targeting lead me to investigating psychopathy, online. That alone became a rabbit hole where I found at least one interactive forum that was manned by people who had been so damaged by the experience they couldn’t think straight.

    It afforded them the opportunity to lash out at others, reenacting the ‘toxic tango’ from a position of power. And to these people, nobody was troubled, character flawed, a simple jerk. They were all psychopaths.

    Because we live in a narcissistic society we have to make allowances for people who have conformed to it. Callous disregard for others is on a continuum, as you pointed out in your post above. The lesser forms of insensitivity in conversation though, can be due partly to cultural narcissism, or over tired, or any number of reasons.

    Those who have already been sensitized, through their own experience to psychopathy or malignant narcissism,(particularly if their exposure to psychopathy has been recent) should ‘listen to their gut,’ while understanding its limits as an unsullied diagnostic tool.

    Their gut can five them false positives, if they have the idea that psychopaths are everywhere. Their initial anxiety about psychopathy, entering into any social interaction will predispose them to seeing it where it doesn’t exist.

    1. LisaO,

      I agree with what you’ve said in part anyway. Being fresh out of an attack by psychopaths and their goon squads is very challenging and we all end up a bit like cats on a hot tin roof for a good while. Given this type of emotional trauma effects the entire nervous system some end up with PTSD as a result. In saying that there are some people who have highly developed and keen intuition regardless. I know I’m one of them, I can sense many things that others can’t. I don’t claim to be special in any way, we all have these abilities. Some of us, however, are just not aware of them where some people are fully aware of them. The intuition I refer to is a warning signal of all types of danger. Here is an example of mine: I was driving down the road one day when suddenly I started to hyperventilate, it was intense and sudden, I had to quickly pull over to the side of the road in order to compose myself. I didn’t exactly know what was going on though at the time. As I was slowing down to look for a place to pull over I went around a bend and there were all these cars backed up on the road. As it turns out there were roadworks and no warning signs had been put out to indicate or warn motorists to slow down. Had I not have slowed down I would have ended up running into the last car. This was about 20 years or so ago. But I still get this when their is imminent danger around. The hyperventilation isn’t really hyperventilation it’s just an acute onset of fight, flight, freeze and that rarely happens. Other cues are not as acute – it depends on the level of danger. I’m sure many accused witches were burned at the stake for these abilities back in the day. Many were burned for less based on nothing other than hearsay.

      I also know when somebody is lying. Again it’s another instinct not acute but subtle. There are many different cues, not of which I would classify as a diagnostic tool for anything other than what it is – a warning sign, keen intuition. Mine has never let me down. I’ve let myself down, however, by not paying attention to it when I should have. This won’t happen again.

      Some people know themselves very well and listen to their intuition. It’s a wise practice. However, even with people whose instincts are less well developed especially those who have been abused by CDMN should know how to recognise traits of these CD and remain vigilant.

      I am not suggesting they are everywhere. There may be as many as 50 in a community of about 200. At any given time it’s unlikely they’ll all be out and about at once. It’s also quite phenomenal the number of people I have met who have had serious problems with these people. Buy and large if I’m out of an evening say at the local tavern for a band – it’s a small community. Most of the people are locals, some are out of town and some are blow ins. I know who I know, I know who I trust and as for the rest – I’m polite and courteous and will mingle and socialise but I don’t look for psychopaths nor am I anxious about them. It really depends on a person’s make up, the level of interpersonal work they have done on themselves etc. Everybody is different and are at various stages of development.

      I avoid anybody now who is basically emotionally immature in the first place as in not getting to close to them. It’s one thing having a beer at the tavern or coffee at the markets and entirely another inviting them over to my house. An emotionally mature person is not going to turn into a CD because EQ is one of the qualities the CD lack. I made this mistake in the past and tolerated some people who were emotionally immature. I won’t be doing this again. We live and learn.

  16. Hi Eudoxia,

    I appreciate your response. Thanks for taking the time! I hear what you’re saying about emotional maturity and agree that it’s one thing to have a very casual acquaintanceship with an immature individual and another to have any kind of real friendship — whether they are technically a CD, psychopath or not. The immaturity is usually pretty apparent, early on, so — as you suggest — it is best to keep the very immature at arm’s length.

    Harder if they are covert CD who are operating in a more stealthy way, though. They can get closer to us before we realize what they actually are. And that IS where intuition can play a role.. The first time I spoke on the phone with the covert malignant P or narcissist (not quite sure which) who targeted me, my first thought was that he sounded pathological.

    There was something too measured, slow in the way he spoke. I know NOW, this was a bit of a give away, but I rationalized it away. He was from the Deep South and they DO speak more slowly. .And yet, I have known other Southerners who don’t give me the creeps when they talk. Quite the contrary.

    If I had paid attention to my intuition, taken other glaring clues more seriously, instead of mistaking them for eccentricities, I would have been much more prepared for his vindictive rage and subsequent emotional sadism.

    I watched a true story on TV the other night about a woman whose brother turned out to be a serial killer. He was also a big tease, told tall tales, drank a lot. He told his sister repeatedly that there were bodies buried in his yard. She would just LOL, thinking her brother was being a big goofy eccentric, making up stories again! Tragic thing was, he wasn’t making it up.

    People who are very odd, eccentric, disregarding of others are often anti-social. It goes beyond immaturity. This to me can be another ‘tell.’ Eccentrics who are socially adjusted are wonderful, colorful. But the eccentric who lives alone, doesn’t socialize and is just too weird for words and gives us the creeps? I REALLY pay attention to that.

    1. LisaO – it’s a bit freaky when we look back at all those cues we missed. I think it’s a thing empaths do. It seems to be the case anyway. At face value we try to see the good in people and usually wait until they actually do damage to make an informed choice to sever involvement. But even before that I now realize one of the major mistakes I made was when I thought I was seeing the good in them – it wasn’t in them at all. It was a projection of our own good qualities onto them. When you go back and replay in your head a few times many interactions where you thought they were really lovely or some other sweet attribute you actually do realize it was just a con job and that you were being played all the time. Well I’m starting to see this pattern again.

      You are so dead right when you said the bit about giving you “the creeps” there is something about the CD that is really quite demonic – skin crawling demonic. It’s not just like a normal cue or signal it’s something more disturbing, more sinister and I’m not joking when I say this and I’ll bet a few others have also seen/felt this.

      I’m started to get a very uneasy feeling about the old guy I look after. I’m under the impression at the moment that F is more than just a vulnerable narc. There is something a bit more sinister going on there and I’ve felt it on a few occasions now so I have to start paying attention. He is becoming way more passive aggressive, obstructionistic and starts gaslighting more frequently. Last night something else turned up and it’s giving me the eebee jeebees. I went to a friend’s place to catch up with her for a couple of hours in the afternoon. I got home around 7pm and started cooking dinner – easy dinner spag bol. N, the lady who has moved into the downstairs part of the house was with me she’s also out of a 30 year marriage to a CDMNSP. N was upstairs for over an hour and we where talking pretty well non stop about her impending divorce, she’s about to serve the divorce papers – we are both fully aware of the danger there. I noticed F had turned the light off in his bedroom. Of late I’ve been stopping him dead in his tracks when he starts any type of strategy. If he starts getting obstructionistic then starts his gaslighting “I didn’t say that” etc – I don’t let him, I keep him on topic and only on topic I don’t let him waft down the garden path or mess with my head or reality. So he’s not been getting any supply whatsoever. He often sighs loudly when he’s denied supply. He’s been walking around the house sighing loudly for several days now. Last night after there was no sign of him for a good while I turned off the spag sauce and decided on an omelete thinking he’d gone to bed so I left him to it. He’s a closet drinker and he smokes pot also. He can’t closet drink anymore though but anyway I digress. He came out after I had started eating the omelet and just pilled a plate full of spagetti sauce and walked outside. Firstly he never does this type of shit and he was silent. He always asks first – this was a covert act of aggression. I feel he deliberately sat in his room trying to eavesdrop on what we were talking about. He could have just as well walked outside and joined the discussion but he tends to keep to himself. I feel he’s jealous that N and I are friends. I know it doesn’t sound like much, but when someone is building up for an explosion they start doing things that are totally our of character and he’s acting totally out of character and it’s subtle nuances and in a menacing manner it’s also the expression of contempt he gets on his face which is unmistakable also the body language. I can literally see the toxic shit swirling around in his head. For some reason I he feels threatened. It is nearly the exact same type of stuff that was happening with my ex CD best friend. She started demonstrating anti behavior when I started forming other friendships. When I refer to anti behavior I am refer to non friendly, necrophilic behavior (I love those descriptions from Fromm). The big explosion occurred about 18 months of living together. I’ve been looking after F now for 18 months and I’m getting a very uneasy feeling – UNEASY FEELING, UNEASY FEELING = EEGIE JEEBIES! I thought he was a vulnerable narc but I’m not so sure now in fact I’m far from sure. He has always played head games – I put this down to him being immature – I think it’s far worse. What are the common denominators with all of them – that’s easy ABANDONMENT. Every, single one of them at their core is abandonment. Unresolved childhood abandonment and rejection.

      I am going to have to nip this in the bud rather quickly because I am not tolerating or feeding anymore of these beasts.

  17. Eudox,

    How old is Frank? MN can exhibit and have both traits of vulnerable and grandiose. I don’t enough details about him to really comment. At the same time he may be delusional and and paranoid. Being deprived of supply they will get it one way or another, positive or negative strokes. Depending they also can have go manic in their rages. I would humor in a way to calm him down and then think of a way to terminate him living in your dwelling.

    Individuals of this sort, although predictable, if you know what to look for, can go off the deep end if they feel they have nothing to loose and become delusional to the point of schizophrenic reactionary outbursts. What is more alarming than anything are the drug interactions that will play havoc on and already unstable delusional thought process. Withdrawal is an even deeper sign of pathology.

    I don’t know what the laws are in your country but if a person is of danger to himself or others they can be detained on a 3 day hold for observation.

    Many times when we have had individuals comment on this site that the individuals likes to be victimized and enjoys their relationship, they do not have the capacity to even fathom that one may be safer in the relationship than outside of it.

    Many times it goes beyond the core of abandonment, being more about losing control and possibly contemplating harm. One never knows, in letting him rant and jabber on, remember, they very well may give you the answer to what they are thinking, planning to do and are truly capable of. Many times it pays to listen to their garble for therein will lie your answer.

  18. Eudoxia has written, “As far as I am concerned we can NEVER know enough about these vile creatures.”

    What more is there to know? I’ve read Dr. Simon’s books, I revisit this site often and I enjoy the respectful articulate dialogue among you. I’m grateful to have found hope, validation, advice and firsthand knowledge from you the posters and when I read Dr. Simon’s books after being damaged by the CDs in my life this place became enough. Isn’t there a repetitive component to reading more and more from other authors? I might have a short attention span I don’t know. I know enough to protect myself but I don’t need to read another book to find out CDs are out there, we know they are out there and they aren’t going anywhere. This site is more valuable then any book, in my opinion.

    1. Sydney – they are out there all right in droves. They come in many varieties and many colors. What is important now is learning about them, how to recognise them and how to stay well clear of them. There will always be more to know. These vile creatures have been recorded for thousands of years. They are in all types of literature – Biblical and otherwise across many different cultures.

      They are the enemy of mankind. Know your enemy. There is no practical purpose for them here – they are not pro life they are Thanatos energy. I for one having had involvement with them on many occasions for many different reasons I am determined to not allow another one in my life. I’m sort of half way stuck with one now but I’ve had him in my care for the last 18 months which is how I am also acquiring a unique level of understanding them. I have a live specimen I can study and journal.

      Knowledge is crucial and knowledge is power. Not power of others but self empowerment. This forum is a God send for anybody going through the mill with the CD.

  19. To be honest I think he’s just a crazy old man who is jealous when he has no right to be – he is just a roomy and means nothing to me, it’s more like a job. I actually get paid to look after him. They can only really hurt you if you are emotionally attached to them. So this time it’s considerably different. At the end of the day he’s just like a little child who gets jealous when Mommy is talking to someone else and getting all the attention. That’s what he is exhibiting. He’s like a 5 year old in a 76 year old body. They have one hell of a tanty screaming HARD DONE BY – LOOK AT ME!!!!!! “I HATE YOU! YOU STINK” blah blah blah. Honestly you should have heard him. After stepping right out of it for a few hours it’s almost comical – the shear magnitude of his desperate ineptitude was outstanding. If he was 4 he would have won an Oscar!

    They try and punish but all they end up doing is punishing themselves. Now he’s at the age he’s at I can easily have him sanctioned if need be and if he doesn’t bloody well behave himself he will be. I’m done with this shit. He doesn’t have the intellectual capacity or the maturity to pull anything else off aside from having a tantrum. It’s just the energy they emit is pure malice and hatred. At the core of his being I think he actually hates himself. Mummy didn’t love him enough and let Daddy hurt him. That’s why any perceived rejection, criticism or abandonment sends him off on a tirade. Plus he’s drug f^^&* he’s been a stoner his entire life. He does not, and can’t deal with reality. He is not capable of self work, he is not capable of adult discussion, he is not capable of even holding down a conversation. Two sentences is his max and generally only one most of the time. He is incapable of doing anything more let alone make decisions, articulate, think strategically or even solve problems. He finds plenty but can’t solve any. He only knows conflict, has no clue as to how to reconcile or correct or even how to do damage control. He only knows one thing ATTACK. He needs everything done for him just like a little child. He has no initiative, no creativity, no reasoning ability. He has two jobs doing the dishes and mopping. He’s not capable of anything else. He can mow the lawn but I wouldn’t give him a brush cutter he’d break it in no time as he tries to force things. He broke a pair of secateurs once I found them in two pieces. When I asked what happened to them, he said this “it was great force”. It was the locking mechanism, he didn’t understand releasing it. He’s a complete and utter one marshmallow kid.

  20. LIFE IS
    By Michael Sage

    Life is like a river, constantly flowing,
    Life is like a tree, constantly growing.

    Life is like the desert, constantly changing,
    Life is like the oceans, constantly re-arranging,

    Life is accepting, both others and yourself,
    Life is understanding, and believing in oneself,

    Life is committing, and doing the best you can,
    Life is believing, and being your own very best fan.

    Life is for loving, and also for caring,
    Life is for helping, and giving and sharing.

    Life is the seeds that you plant each day,
    Life is creating a better world in which to stay.

  21. BTOV

    LIVE FOR TODAY
    By Michael Sage

    There are times when life seems to be a dark shade of grey,
    Your problems seem overwhelming & your nerves begin to fray,
    The expedition you’re on, seems to be in total disarray,
    And instead of being the hunter, you feel more like the prey.

    Don’t get caught up in slander, nor gossip or hearsay,
    Don’t dwell your mind on bad things that others have to say,
    Don’t think about disaster or believe the worlds in decay,
    Else you’ll continue your slide down that hellish slipway.

    Don’t waste time or dwell on the regrets of yesterday,
    Or walk around as if you have some broken vertebrae,
    No one has burdens than GODS scale cannot weigh,
    HE’LL never give you challenges if it would lead you astray.

    Believe in the wonders brought forth with each new day,
    Feel refreshed so as to tackle whatever comes your way,
    Be joyous and happy as you climb on life’s Golden Highway,
    Don’t fear tomorrow, plan if you must, but live for today!

    1. Joey,

      You dear Kindred Spirit, you have been on my mind so many times. Watching and waiting for your posts. How lovely, and just for me, this is such a beautiful gift, I will print it and put it on my wall by my desk. The words ever so true, I do get very low at times. These words so very true.

      I welcome you back to your family on Dr. Simon’s, blog, with a heartfelt hug, makes that two big hugs. You have been missed by all of us and I pray you are well. Joey, it just wasn’t the same without you. You have given so much and shared your heart. For me, your poetry always puts what I struggle to put into words and always adds joy and hope. Blessings

      1. Happy Thought
        by Robert Louis Stevenson

        The world is so full of a number of things,
        I’m sure we should all be as happy as kings.

  22. LEISURE
    By W. H. Davies

    What is this life if, full of care,
    We have no time to stand and stare.

    No time to stand beneath the boughs
    And stare as long as sheep or caws.

    No time to see, when woods we pass,
    Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.

    No time to see, in broad daylight,
    Streams full of stars like skies at night.

    No time to turn at Beauty’s glance,
    And watch her feet, how they can dance.

    No time to wait till her mouth can
    Enrich that smile her eyes began.

    A poor life this if, full of care,
    We have no time to stand and stare.

  23. Hi Eudoxia,

    If you are being paid by the government to house your lodger, is it possible he has a medical disability, or is he classed as vulnerable due to age alone?

    The way you describe him, he could be mildly senile, or have a pre-existing mental condition, a symptom of which would be empathy deficits and infantile behavior.

    If he is mildly schizoid he will be odd, reclusive and possibly angry and fearful. In that case his narcissism isn’t the primary problem.

    I wish you good luck with him. It’s not easy.

  24. I am so happy I found this article, I can’t put into words what it has given me. I have been sure that my husband of 16 years was a narcissist for several years. But when I looked up information online it always described the vulnerable narcissist. Then I would feel confused and start thinking it was me, that I expected too much. Now that I have found this new term ¨grandiose¨ narcissist, I realize that is exactly what I have been dealing with. My husband doesn´t rage when people disagree or don´t admire him. He dismisses. When I started to see the lies, when I started to follow my own inner truths, he lost all interest in me. I have felt unloved and unimportant for so long now that I lost faith in who I was. I was trapped in a sense, taking care of the children, with no where to go. But now that I know, now that I can call it by a name, I am ready to move forward. I have been going through a profound two days (the last 16 years have brought me to this moment). I am ready to move forward. I don’t want to try to make him understand or care or say I’m sorry or beg me to stay; because he never will. He doesn’t care.

    1. thrive2017,

      Be careful in the actions you take. If you plan to divorce you need to think things through and prepare. There have been many who have left a CD and found out how difficult it is to leave. I would encourage you to read the blog and hopefully, glean insight from the other posters.

      Blessings.

      1. He wants to leave me. My worry is that we can’t afford to separate and that kids will suffer financially. Right now I am moving forward emotionally, but honestly my soul can’t take anymore, I need to live separate from him. I need to move on, I am certain of this now. I sound at peace, but trust me it has been hell. I doubted my sanity, he made me crazy with the lies, he twisted my words so that he “won” every argument, the only truth was the one he stated in that moment, he had no concern for me (even when I had preclampsia and almost died, he was annoyed he had to miss soccer practice). I have tried everything to make it work, but I finally realize that no matter what I do, I will never have a true relationship, it is a marriage, but there is no love, no support, no concern. He truly doesn’t care. He has taken all he could, and I have no more use to him. It is sad, it is heartbreaking, but it is true. I must accept this.

      2. I completely agree. Be very very careful. Be prepared for a battle. I dared to leave my adulterous grandiose narc 18 months ago. I certainly didn’t know what I was letting myself in for. Soon as I filed for divorce (under adultery) he turned nasty. Then following a hideous mediation session where he attempted to control things with manipulation and bullying, I went no contact. Jeez, this completely sent him in to a tail spin… he really showed his true colours then. He turned from nasty, in to an abolsute monster. Clearly no remorse, no empathy, no boundaries for acceptable behaviour. He thinks he is completely above the law. And it amazes me he actually thinks people believe his lies, no matter how rediculous they are, or if they’ve been proved completely wrong with black and white evidence. They will still argue black is white! These people are nasty and very dangerous. I am midst a hideous expensive legal battle to get my equity out of the marital home (he illegally removed my name from the deeds!- that’s a whole other court case in the waiting). Now he’s taking me to court to force a settlement without his disclosing any finances or assets (hence why I’ve not settled). He thinks he should keep 50% of the equity despite me having two dependent children (his) to support. (Is he stupid? Or does he really think the judge will agree to this). Court is set for September. The law doesn’t apply to him apparently. He has fiddled all his self employed accountancy so he has paid nearly no tax. He is refusing to show any finances – so no ‘full and frank disclosure’. He is lying about absolutely anything and everything. It’s taken 18monthd to get the former marital home on the market to sell as he said he was finishing the renovation work (not surprisely he has done sweet FA). More lies. He won’t even admit to HIS solicitor he is cohabiting with the woman who he had an affair with (which weirdly he denies although he legally admitted to adultery). His address is listed as her house but he tells his solicitor he is not living there – I guess incase her very wealthy finances are taken in to account in court.
        These people are unbelievable in the level of their lies. I have come to realise that 20 years of my life with this narc are all a complete lie. My history is all messed up… I don’t know what’s true and what’s not after years of being gas-lighted. One positive is that for the first time in years I realise Im not mad, as he led me to believe.
        But be prepared when you decide to leave/divorce these animals. They will make you pay. Because believe me, they will do anything to break you, financially and emotionally.
        ‘Si vis pacem, parra bellem’ as the Latin proverb states – translated: ‘if you want peace, prepare for war’.

  25. Keep strong Thrive. You’ve found this website and with that comes a wealth of knowledge, support and understanding. We are all behind you. We all know what you’re going through. Keep posting. X

    1. Thrive2017 and DevonTaffy,

      Thrive I am glad you posted again and welcome you to the blog. I encourage you to keep posting and you will find many who will share their knowledge and give you as much support as we can.

      Devon, glad to hear from you again and chiming in. I am sorry you have to go through so much, but then, you know it is the way of the CD. For me I knew it was bad but never imagined how insanely bad it would be.

      Thrive, Devon has given you words of wisdom, unfortunately, all of it is true. Their are many others who regularly post and have gone through and are still dealing with the CDN. When you decide to leave or have him removed you will see more of who he really is inside and believe me it is ultimate ugliness.

      The CDN will do anything to get back at you, even if it means they will lose assets. It’s all about control and revenge, how dare you. The CDN in my life called it Payback Pal. I basically went NC from the start, and then, still had to get a restraining order, he was so vile and sick in his actions I was able to obtain another 4 year injunction. Never underestimate the CDN.

      I would caution you, NOT to let him what you plan to do. I don’t mean to scare you, take every precaution to cover your tracks. Erase the history on your computer and change passwords. If you can stand it for awhile, make copies of all important documents, photograph your assets, get copies of all bank and credit statements. If you are able to stash some money, start doing it. If you are able to, get the things you are able to remove without his seeing it leave the house.

      Do Not, discuss your intentions or how you feel with anyone, except the most trusted person in your life. A friend or relative can turn on you tomorrow in these types of relationships. So, be very careful.

      Thrive, there is a wealth of information on how and what others dealt with, how they prepared or didn’t prepare to leave. Knowledge is power and know if you keep posting you are among friends who understand and will help you in every way possible.

      Take care and be safe.

      1. BTOV excellent advice. I’ll one add very important thing.

        Thrive & Devon if you are in the stages of leaving they do NOT like losing control. You are a source of supply to them nothing more. One of the favored tactics they use to undermine you is the smear campaign. They will always be playing the part of the moral crusader and consider themselves morally unimpeachable. You will already have noticed how they all like to drink deeply from the cup of moral indignation. This shows their total lack of sincerity and insecurity.

        They will garnish support for their sob story by telling others how cruel you are to them while professing their undying love and support for you. They will cry a gazillion crocodile tears telling your nearest and dearest all the despicable things you have done to them which in reality are all the things they have done to you. They are the epitome of amoral. There is nothing they will not stoop to and have a mega abundance of heinous strategies to be used against you. You will see the face of a true monster. It is the face of evil.

        Also know this, if one of these monsters manages to turn any of your family and friends against you in light of knowing you and who you really are then consider them no friends at all. During a smear campaign you will come to know who your true friends and family are or are not. In the words of Meridith Miller you will know who has your back and who your real tribe are. When there is a traitor in your midst, there is only one way to deal with them and you know what that is. Take no prisoners here.

        When the shit starts to hit the fan be prepared for total barbarism, malice and menace to such an extent you couldn’t even dream of it. They are, callous, unrepentant, nihilistic, traitorous, soul murders and there is an acronym for that. Be prepared you are about to fight the battle of your life. Keep notes and journal everything. Above all be impeachable yourself. Stay in truth and never stoop to their level because I can assure you it will be very tempting and the words of Frederich Nietzsche should be well heeded.

        “He who fights with monsters should be careful least he thereby becomes a monster. When you stare at the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.”

        Above all be safe, and take great care of yourselves and your children. You have support and allies here.

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