Grandiose Narcissists and Shattered Illusions

A narcissist can be of the “vulnerable” or “neurotic” type (see also Two Main Varieties of Narcissists).  Such inwardly insecure characters crave love and affirmation and seek it by trying to prove their exceptionality. But in our age it’s more common for a narcissist to be of the “grandiose” or character-disturbed variety and such characters are convinced of their greatness and don’t care much what others think. As I have noted before, grandiose narcissists are “legends in their own minds,” so when reality challenges their delusions of grandeur, and because they can’t bring themselves to fault themselves, in their anger and rage  they can make life a true nightmare for those they choose to blame (for more on the narcissistic character see pp. 85-94 in Character Disturbance).  The vignette about a grandiose narcissist that follows is meant to illustrate the point (and, as always, any potentially identifying information has been altered to preserve anonymity).

To many on the outside, Martin was a man of true virtue and conviction.  He seemed to take his professed faith and his responsibilities very seriously. And he also appeared the model of dedication, undertaking his roles as husband and father as a sworn duty, firmly embraced.  But Martin’s family experienced him quite differently – as a tyrant who could never be wrong and whose “my way or the highway” approach to everything discounted everyone else’s opinions and value.  Jean had had just about enough, having tried for years, even with the help of counselors (Martin would always find something wrong with the ones who didn’t end up seeing things his way) to get Martin to see how his arrogant manner was crushing her spirit.  So when she finally got the nerve to propose a separation, her hope was that he would begin rethinking things, especially because the children so eagerly and immediately expressed a desire to stay with her.  Instead, the whole family felt the full force of Martin’s wrath. And the more they tried to reason with him or hold out hope, the worse things got. It would be months before Jean would understand that that’s what often happens when a grandiose narcissist faces the kind of “insult” her limit-setting begot.

Martin just knew he was right and everyone else was wrong.  And in his benevolence, he “prayed” that eventually his wife and children would come to their senses.  After all, he was Martin J. Parker, the man who built a million-dollar business from scratch and gave his family the kind lifestyle anyone would envy.  How dare they be so unappreciative. Everyone else seemed to know he was a man of God, taking his responsibility to be the moral and spiritual leader of his family seriously.  How could his own family not afford him his rightful due? Surely they would come to their senses.  He would make them see.  He would put their lack of gratitude squarely in their faces if he had to, and as often as it would take.  Jean was behaving like a spoiled child and it was her undermining of his position and authority that had the kids all messed up in the head. He would go to his grave to prove that.  And in just about every interaction he had with Jean or the kids, that’s exactly what he did.  But in the end, the pain of such belittling and discounting was too much for all to bear.  Everyone reached the point where they wanted nothing whatsover to do with Martin and his daily dishing of emotional abuse.  So when the kids went off to college (both were excellent students who managed to get full scholarships), they made sure they were at institutions far enough away to ensure at least physical distance.  And Jean vowed to adhere to the  “no contact” contract she made with herself. There seemed no alternative, since every engagement always ended up the same way: admit he was right and everyone else was wrong and what fools they had all been not to love and appreciate him for all he had been and done.

Martin had a history of ending every engagement by sending the same kind of “Just see how you get along without me!” message, so it would take many years before he could even entertain the notion that it’s simply impossible (and pretty crazy) to brow beat someone into loving you.  And it would take even longer than that for him to reckon with the additional “insult” that everyone was actually much better off the farther they kept their distance from him.  It was only out of utter loneliness and a sense of total personal defeat, that well into his 60’s, Martin finally felt the need to seek some counsel. Grandiose narcissists spend much of their lives asserting they don’t really need anyone else and that what others really need is them, so it’s always a bit more than ironic when they’re no longer able to sell this false bill of goods.

I wish I could say that Martin’s story is an unusual one.  Unfortunately, however, it’s one that’s all-too-common.  There are plenty of grandiose narcissists out there, and most of time life has to dish them out a lot of humble pie to bring them to some sense of reality.

Character Matters will be a live broadcast this Sunday at 7 pm Eastern time (6 pm Central), so I can take your calls.  Perhaps you have a story like this you’d like to share, which is good because I’ll be expanding on this topic on the program. Or perhaps you just have a question or two.  Maybe you just want to listen.  In any case, I hope you’ll tune in.

I’ll be on another professional training workshop tour Feb 9-12. Seminars will be held in Columbus, Ohio Feb 10, Cincinnati Feb 11, and Indianapolis Feb 12.  More details can be found at the Cross Country Education website.


296 thoughts on “Grandiose Narcissists and Shattered Illusions

  1. Dr. Simon,
    It is interesting that you state it would take Martin many years before he could even entertain the notion that it’s simply impossible to browbeat someone into loving you.

    Am I missing something here? I was under the belief, the emotional browbeating was about controlling you, rather then, them trying to obtain love from you?

    If they are trying to receive love in this manner, is it because they don’t think you can love them?

    Thank you

    1. Because love makes someone more cooperative and less resistant? Because some people have twisted conceptions of what they think such-and-such(like love) should be? Because if someone spoils themselves rotten, they think you should show the same “love”, too?

      1. Timothy,
        I guess I forgot I am the mirror. You mean, like I am the mind reader, since I am an extension, I should already know. If I don’t kowtow to the mighty OZ, look out its knock (browbeat) some sense into you.

        Love me like I love myself.

        OK, Lets see, I may finally have it right . To love the CDN, kinds goes like this, its time to do the twisted twist into a twist of another twist then you twist to a twisted twist over and under the twist, now the twist is twisted and to undo the twist you twist the twist. Me thinks I spent 30 years trying to do the twisted twist and still can’t get it right!

        “Please, please help me Mr. Wizard.” Me thinks I got to old for Peter Pan and Fairies.

        And, NO I haven’t been drinking, just reminiscing about the Funny Farm and Looney Tunes.

        1. BTOV

          You cracked me up with the twisty twist. That is what it feels like. You’re in the Land where nothing makes sense. You struggle and try harder and it still doesn’t make sense. Cause we’ve been dealing with Devils who are expert manipulator and we Just Didn’t Get It! And we should have been grateful because they did everything and we did Nothing.

        2. BTOV,

          I think it helps if you think of it as a scale, depending on where these people are on the scale it could well be control, lower down the scale of crazy it will be trying to obtain a kind of affection.

          The dynamic wouldn’t ever be normal though…..

      2. Timothy
        I don’t think they care about love. They don’t love in the sense we know it. They just use you up – fulfill whatever it is they want from you
        My counselor told me she thinks my STBX does love me. I really didn’t care if he did or not. He did not show it. Love to me is not an emotion. It’s action and his actions were harmful. That is not love.

        1. Lucy,
          Perfectly said!
          My therapist also told me that she thought my husband loved me. She said “in his own way.” It made me frustrated and sad when she said that because it wasn’t love at all to me. It made me feel that part of me was expecting too much from him.
          That has haunted me, but your explanation that love is actions makes so much sense! He may think he loves me – but it’s twisted – it’s not love at all – it’s possession.

          1. Jeanie
            I think there are qualities in is that they do admire. My STBX would always have my back if he thought someone else was disrespecting me (our kids) or whoever else. But he disrespected me. So that is where the twisty turn that BTOV speaks of comes into play. Taken all together it does not make sense. But to love – you don’t manipulate a person to gain a benefit. I’m glad my little insight helped. When I was a church goer several years ago the minister explained in a sermon that love is not an emotion, it’s action. It’s a verb. Makes sense to me. There is a lot of caring and attention given to one you love.

          2. That’s the truth my ex didn’t love me … him I was a possession….he was a real jerk ….

        2. Lucy, I think counsellors who tell you that someone who treats you badly loves you , ‘deep down’ can do an enormous amount of harm.

          My mother was big into the, “he acts this way and says, such and such, but he really loves you. Worst still is — he only acts this way because he loves you!” W.t.f? Not helpful…at all. Very very confusing.

          Until I was in my mid twenties if a man treated me badly, I wasn’t savvy enough to realize that how I was treated was a pretty accurate gauge of how the man felt about me. Double ungood!

          1. It is harmful. She should’ve said further that yes he abuses you, treat you badly, should never have done the things he does, and in his twisted sour heart if you were able to love he could’ve possibly loved me, but that’s not normal love and good love by any means

    2. Not saying here that he understands love in a mature, healthy way, so perhaps I could have chosen my words more carefully. Folks like Martin tend to equate things like being valued, worshiped, adored, deferred to, etc. as being loved. But even things like being valued or respected can’t be coerced, they have to be earned. Martin’s misguided thinking had him believing others could be pounded into seeing the folly of their lack of admiration of him. It’s precisely this kind of “twisted” thinking coupled with the inability and/or unwillingness to admit shorcomings that prevents such folks from understanding what real love, respect, etc. are all about.

      1. Sorry to zone in another single word again, but the word “misguided” raises questions in me.

        You’ve said many times that a disturbed enough character does know fully well what he’s doing and why, whatever it is. You’ve mentioned that such a person also knows fully well what he/she is.

        In this article you say:

        “Disordered characters – certainly don’t like to examine their own motives.”

        “[T]hey don’t give much focus to the series of choices they’ve made, but rather see their behavior and its consequences as the inevitable result of a snowball rolling out of control and becoming too massive to stop. Circumstantial thinking (i.e., not thinking about one’s motives for engaging in behaviors, one’s internal decision-making process, and the consequences of one’s choices, but rather telling oneself that things simply happen) is the thinking error most responsible for the development of a socially irresponsible attitude.”

        So one can know what one’s doing and why without reflecting on one’s motives? To me those two parts would seem opposed, but apparently they can go together. Would you go more in depth about this?

        1. Timothy,

          I will agree with statement that character disturbed is fully aware of what he is doing, in the sense, he knows right from wrong and still does wrong. And, at the same time, he does not bother to check himself or introspect his past decisions to put together a series wrong decisions he had made to reach a shitty situation. I assume this continues as long as he can blame others.
          Note: read he/she whenever you read he.

          Consider a hypothetical case drawn from one couple I know:
          – He claims to be temperamental, but choose to keep quiet (maintain a facade) in front of older relatives. But, at home he uses anger to control his wife.
          – Not just shouting, he also chooses to physically restraint his wife. He blames her as annoying person.
          – Once is a while he comes home drunk and that results in a fight.
          – After a particular bad fighting when he holds her by neck and breaks her phone, her worried parents calls the police, but she turns the police away. He blames her for insulting him in front of others.
          – After sometime she visits her parent for a family function.
          – Fight continues even then, and he does not call her back to home. He blames her for overstaying.
          – During mediation, he outright denies his occasional getting drunk and other physical fights. She is shocked that one could lie so blatantly, but he is nonchalant. He blames her that if she had been bit understanding things wouldn’t have spiraled out of control.
          – She is filing for divorce. He blames her…

          Does he want divorce? No.
          Is he aware of what he is doing? Yes. At each moment, he is aware of exactly what he is doing. He is not delusional or psychotic.
          Can he put together series of events in his relationship, and put together 1 + 1 = 2 ? No. What happened in the past, just happened. What is happening today, must be won by end of today.

  2. My STBX CDN always acted as if he didn’t need anything emotional from me (nearly 30 year marriage), would get angry when he was asked to do things, anything, would rarely ask of any favor from anyone else, seemed to want to be left alone. So why did he marry me and want children but then not wanting one “bothered”? And yes, he was of the opinion that he did “everything” for the family and I did “nothing”. Do they really believe this? And they should be loved because they’ve done so much – but had been emotionally unavailable. They are some messed up people.

    1. Lucy,
      He didn’t ask because it’s beneath them to ask, he didn’t need you you needed him.

      He got angry when you asked because he didn’t want to do anything. How dare a peon as something of them.

      He married you because he did need you, he needed you to fill his needs, such as cook, shopper, provide income, an incubator for more people to serve his needs and on and on.

      In his mind he did everything and you did nothing because you are nothing to him except an extension. Don’t you know without him you would be nothing.

      They are all that and more , a legend only in their ignorant, delusional minds. Mine said I deserved nothing and if it wasn’t for him I would have nothing. Mine was the higher income.

      I can pity them, even forgive, but I never will befriend or feel sorry for these miscreants, they will pounce on you as soon as you blink.

      1. You explained a lot right there. I don’t feel bad for them. I feel fbad for us wasting our time and energy.
        What an ass – you deserve nothing. You only had it because of him. The arrogance to the point of delusion. I hate to say it but I can now understand how some abused people just lose it on their abuser and basically dismantle them. Once you understand these CDNs and what they’ve done to you, intentionally, it makes me hate him. And that is a strong, destructive feeling/emotion.

        1. Hi Lucy,

          Don’t let the fact that you hung in there for so long be anything but a testament to your strength and to your very understandable belief that you might get through to him one day.

          Until relatively recently, there has been little popular focus on personality disorders. And, even now, many counsellors and psychologists, as Dr. Simon takes pains to describe, see these types as victims in their own right. That is the area of emphasis. Treat their underlying fear of rejection, of failure of whatever and they and the relationship will improve.

          It is perfectly understandable to feel hatred for morally reprehensible human beings. Everybody goes through it and if they claim they don’t for lofty spiritual reasons, or whatever, they have either not endured it or they are being dishonest.

          If you can’t hate someone who has or is intentionally trying to destroy you, who and what can you hate? That would require God like powers of detachment and or being some kind of ascended master.

          Also, hatred can motivate creative ways of dealing with a situation, if a person remains somewhat calm at the same time. This is not always achievable or the best idea, but it can work. Otherwise hatred wouldn’t exist as part of a repertoire of negative emotions.

          I think those who moralize about forgiveness and how hatred is ‘bad’ making us ‘no netter than the grandiose,’ are wrong. I also get the uncomfortable feeling when dealing with moralizers, that life might just send one of these creeps their way, one day. Doesn’t pay to judge from a ‘high ground’ position.

          That being said, some people truly are just trying to help and just want the victim/survivor to go easier on themselves by reducing feelings of aggression. And that usually does come, with time….but it can’t be forced.

          1. LISAO,
            Some very good points, we are all different and what may work for sone may not work for another.

            I am looking for the positives that we do have control of to forward and not stay stuck in negativism or anger. Sometimes I feel I have passed the stage of anger and am not sure if that is good or bad.

        2. Lucy,

          “some abused people just lose it on their abuser and basically dismantle them”

          That happens, too? With an abuser at the receiving end getting injured?


          “If you can’t hate someone who has or is intentionally trying to destroy you, who and what can you hate? That would require God like powers of detachment and or being some kind of ascended master.”

          Buddhism comes to mind.

          But then again, one doesn’t just gain equanamity(I think that’s the word, equanamity). It requires a lot of spiritual practice. And a part of that practice would be acknowledging, observing and gaining an optimum relation of them, so you run them, they don’t run you. As far as I understand, repressing/suppressing the hell out of oneself isn’t going to help with spiritual work, quite the contrary.

          “I think those who moralize about forgiveness and how hatred is ‘bad’ making us ‘no netter than the grandiose,’ are wrong. I also get the uncomfortable feeling when dealing with moralizers, that life might just send one of these creeps their way, one day. Doesn’t pay to judge from a ‘high ground’ position.”

          I don’t know if one could actually practice easy forgiveness, if it’s actually practice-able. If one is resentful of having been pushed around and having failed to hold up boundaries, then that can’t really be called forgiveness. Anyone, who encourages that kinda extra-load, deserves ire.

          I know one great link with apt thoughts on this.

          Though I’m not sure about everything this page says(after all, I haven’t gone through something that extreme), I do think this could be worth exploring. In common myths and misconceptions, it sets up a few good points about some fallacies:

          ” * “Everyone should just forgive and forget.” One way abusers dodge responsibility is by appearing conciliatory. Psychopathic abusers especially are notoriously slick at escaping accountability in any way possible. For “forgive and forget” to even be a healthy decision, people(not just a targeted person) need to keep responsibility on an abuser without letting him/her off the hook. The abuse has to actually be over. An abuser has to actually be of mind to become a better person. That, however, is unlikely. Abuse can’t be just in the calm parts of an ongoing cycle of abuse or continuing covertly with an abuser pretending to have changed. Such often happens after public “amends” have been made. Stopping abuse can’t be just lip service. An abuser has to be held responsible for stopping abusive conduct and improving his own behavior. Even if any of this is possible or likely, a victim of abuse can justifiably be uncomfortable around abusers, even former and repentant ones. “Forgive and forget” is a dangerous and harmful platitude. An unlucky party who has experienced abuse has a right to continue his/her life without any obligation to “forgive and forget” and any interference from an abuser.

          * “Don’t sink to their level.” The extension of the “forgive and forget” and “cheer up, it can’t be that bad” fallacies, this is insulting, insensitive and abusive in a different way. Saying it implies that anything other than easy forgiving and forgetting is petty, childish and vindictive when someone wants to take serious steps to ensure their abusers actually face consequences. If you are dumb enough to say this to someone who has just escaped an abusive situation and wants to make sure that their abuser has to account for their behavior, you are part of the problem and should be fully prepared for their verbal razors. ”

          Not advertise the site itself(just mean this as a statement), but Tv Tropes is less formal than Wikipedia and the editors can’t be blamed for lack of personalizing.

      2. My soon-to-be ex-husband told me one time that I was lucky he shared his friends with me. These were people that have been friends for years and years – I always felt they were our friends. But not to him apparently.

        1. He was unable to recognize they were your friends too – he owned them I guess and so generously shared them. Yuk yuk yuk. You’d think they’d be thankful for all we’d done to contributed and shared. But nope. Grandiose narcs have to be the worst mate/partners ever. I’m so disappointed in myself for not leaving him much much sooner.

          1. i live wth one of these narcissists for three yrs then he started to hit me it got so bad that he threaten me he told me that he would tie me up wth duck tape and it b weeks for any body find my body he would take my truck and break my phone so i couldnt talk to any body and live me n the cabin all day and night wth no way going no where or talking to any body when i told my son bout this he said he never beat me he jst hit me whats the difference hitting and beating is the same to me then when i did get away he would kidnap me he tell me he give my truck back if i rode wth him to the store or something i go n pay for gas then he wouldnt let me drive he take me back then i have to find another way out again finally i stab myself n the leg to get away got to my sons and got my brother to comeand get me i live n a diiferent state than my family that is how i got away was to move

          2. Lucy,

            Your earlier post, you WILL become indifferent one day, you may find that your unclouded thinking at that time will enable you to see things very clearly, and that nothing you did made this happen, he was going to be a complete bell-end to anyone he married!

            Your optimism made you stay much longer than was good for you, please do not beat yourself up over that either.

            Your qualities will come in good stead from now on.

            As for the el-stupido, he sounds like a particularly nasty piece of work, whenever you think of him, picture him getting smaller and smaller, eventually vanishing.

            You’ll get there:)

        2. Jeannie, lucky you, huh? He ‘shared’ his friends??? Makes him sound like a 5 year old letting his little sister play with his action figures.

          1. Actually LisaO i think you’ve unwittingly got the bullseye there, his friends WERE no kore than action figures….


    2. This is the type I am married to. Flat out has told me there is nothing he needs anyone; including me for. But has also lamented that no one ever truly loved or wanted him. Thing is, that just isn’t true. I really don’t know if he is capable of receiving love.

    1. Judith

      You are a fighter for sure. I hope they don’t know where are you are. Give yourself big credit for finding your way out and into a safe place. That monster should be in jail – but we all know how that works. Not always legal justice. I hope you va find some healing and peace now. You definitely want a life, a normal one and I hope you have found it. My goodness what a animal he was. And the son – minimizing what his dad did to you. It’s like abuse on top of abuse.

  3. Mine can’t tell the truth has no boundaries except 4him.everything is his I’m still here.i believe he is narcissistic to some degree.everything is about him& he turns every be about him.also is a nonstop talker.doesnt care if I ever talk .wants full time listener.

    1. Diane

      Sounds lik my STBX. Please prepared if you decide to divorce him – everything is his – you did nothing to help – in his eyes. Mine has no boundaries. Has lost his law license because of it. A person with these traits is a vicious one to divorce. Prepare yourself ahead of time if you choose to leave. I’m living divorce hell. Jackass won’t even sign over the insurance check for the vehicle I just totaled. He says it’s his, as are the other two vehicles. I have no vehicle – have worked full time for 33 years, married 3o, and it is all his!! I have to take him to court to get a vehicle. I earn six figures and have paid for nothing in the marriage – he’s paid for everything! Wow – how could I have not known this. Just warning you – you think he’s a narc beast now – it gets worse

      1. Lucy,
        See if you can call the insurance company and get a check reissued and sent to you. I think if you have 2 vehicles at your next court date they can award you one of the vehicles instead of buying another one, put the check/funds toward taxes or bills. He may sabotage the vehicle though if he thinks you want it.

        Many times bills, especially property taxes go unpaid till the division and or sale of property. I would imagine he has enough income to pay household expenses. If older children are at home, they should be contributing to rent. I don’t believe the law provides one supporting an over 18 year adult who is eligible to enlist in the service (example).

        If there is anything you want, don’t tell him, then he will want it like a little child. If you are going to a trial you may have to wait till then. Regardless, of what anyone one says ownership is 90% of the law most the time. It will cost you more going through the courts to get it.

        Was he awarded both the vehicles? Also, if the divorce gets to ridiculous the judge could order everything auctioned off, the bills paid first and what is left divided.

        Remember, for you court date get receipts/checks/statements of your rent and additional bills/groceries/gas you are now paying in addition too.

        1. I’m ready for him. No personal property has been awarded to either of us yet. He does not earn enough to pay the mortgage and bills. He does not earn near what he used to. I’m keeping track of everything. Real estate taxes need to be paid immediately. That’s why we are having a hearing. It just goes on and on. Jackass takes the position everything is his. But he has shot himself in the foot this time. He is going to regret taking me to court o. A few issues. His criminality will be exposed.

          1. Lucy,
            You have quite a ways to go. Why not let him have the house and everything in it and you keep your pension and also drop him from the insurance to be done with him. I am telling you the attorneys fees can skyrocket to the point of losing everything. Get what you can of your personal property. He is in control of everything until you go before the judge for a trial. If there is everything will be appraised if you can’t come to a decision. You have your appraiser he has his. It will get nuts. Are you thinking there is going to be a trial?

            He can in the meantime remove anything he wants from the house and you will have to prove it was there.

          2. “His criminality will be exposed”

            Go get ‘im Lucy, great stuff, i laughed my head off when i read that line:)

        1. MS

          Maybe some believe what they say. As far as my STBX, no, he knows the truth but chooses to keep lying to “cover up” what he’s done and continues to do.

    2. I’ve said it over and over but gandiose narcs make the worst mates/spouse/partner. We are much better off without them

      1. I plan on staying.i did get a over my life back,once fear didn’t fall in,& I don’t cave is very difficult to seperate from these people.we lived apart 4 a few yr.till he got sick.hes ok now.thank God for health&;friends.these men are! very needy people who do all to cover that up.!!

    3. Hi Dianne, oh what a lovely man! Not! I always picture these people on a late night talk show, called “the Shut up show”. A stopwatch is brought out every time they open their mouths. They are given exactly 30 seconds and if they haven’t wrapped it up by then, the hosts and all of the guests, yell “shut up,” to the delight of the audience. Roars of laughter, deafening applause.

      Is he flirtatious, bitchy, whiny moany, too?

      1. That’s my husband!! A friggen baby!!! But he’s a big shot, or so he thinks. He’s great, don’t ya know? He can do everything, knows everything. And if he doesn’t know it, like computer stuff, it’s worthless. Arrogant ass. Beginning to hate him…

        1. Yoga nanda paramasa or what name said” do not get angry at a person,get angry at anger “.The only person we are really mad at is ourself! I get mad at self when I get caught up in these arguments,I now can walk out of the room.its a victory for me.luckily I have hobbies,activities and friends.

          1. Thanks for commenting, Dianne.

            You’re thinking of Yogananda Paramahansa. That guy brought kriya yoga to the West. Never practiced that, though, so can’t say a thing about it.

            Mostly do basic mindfulness meditation myself and I find it serves me well. Yoga I guess is a way of disciplining one’s mind even further by manipulating one’s own body – self-manipulation? Not to be judgmental, though, just in case someone reading this happens to practice yoga and wants to comment.

            Getting angry at anger itself? Okay, interesting.

            I think there’s a jewish anecdote about a rabbi that says God put anger in us for a purpose and its fire is to be used with skill.

          2. Anger and me have become quite personal as of lately. I’ve felt anger to degrees I never felt before being as I’ve been manipulated , lied to, toyed like a puppet, with no remorse or even admittance of same maddens me greatly. Forget about an apology. That will never happen. . How dare a person toy with my life. Anger is a natural response. It is what it is. But some day – I will feel indifferent to his abuse just not there yet.

        2. Kelly,

          Do not hate your husband in your heart. You will be worse off in long run.
          Tell him on the face what you think… just point out his actions in as objective manner as possible. You will probably create a storm in short-term, but you just may be much better off in long-term.

  4. Martin is a bit like the mother. In the sense of what SHE THINKS SHE IS. The mother came from a wealthy farming family and as a boy I wanted for nothing. I had motorbikes, cars, horses and 2000 acres of land to play on. BUT ! My Uncle did not speak to my grandmother at all. All through my childhood.
    My Mother was a GIFT GIVER. I’ll pay I’ll pay, I remember her saying to me. The biggest gift was the none payment of house keep. Pritty much all my life , I never paid house keep, at all. BUT! question her or its mother and you GOT THERE’S THE DOOR IF YOU AIN’T HAPPY HERE, THERE’S THE DOOR. I had not a leg to stand on. I am not very good at typing.
    I will post more later. Thank You Dr Simon you answered every question I ever had.

  5. Btov, I think that what Dr. Simon means is it can take years to get the narcissist to understand that cooperation and compliance can only exist in an atmosphere of fairness and reciprocity. Normal people understand this implicitly and feelings of love and empathy help to bolster it. We dislike seeing people hurting. It makes us hurt.

    Eventually some of these characters find they can’t force subservience and submission, (that would be their version of ‘love’) through manipulation and aggression.

    Some of them, through counselling and or acquired insight of some kind (based on self interest, most likely) come to understand that they have to change their behavior, be at least mindful of partners and children, act accordingly and then voluntary cooperation can be achieved.

    Authoritarian/abusive familial regimes can only be maintained through ongoing oppression. When kids grow up and when wives achieve some degree of autonomy, the grandiose have to develop some respect for the spirit of democracy, or the gig is up.

    1. I do not think they eventually “get it”.only when the partner gets more equal power in the mix.,loses fear and makes her own life.these people are very clever . we’re usually no match for their wiles.they have an answer for everything,no win situation to discuss things.they don’t they prefer arguing,wear you down.bottom line they win .they get your goat & all your time & attention,sucking the life out of you!,

        1. On this particular defect of character.also mine can be overbearing ,then sometimes gets meek.complains he has no friends,only likes lady friends.wants waited on.i set up his own kitchen& bedroom,refrig,microwave.i still cook though.he wants his own let thankful for my friends.i do not get to be alone in the house.he goes out when I do or stays in.except tday he walked to store,so I got to clean.

          1. It’s always nice to have a peaceful space to go to tp be alone when you need it. I was fortunate that when I did live with the CDN we had a large home. He liked being downstairs and me up. Many times I thought he was gone for hours but was there Maybe that’s why I tolerated it for so long – I got my space

        2. Bigamist shocker…. “What, married to several Women, but that’s Bigamy” the narcs answer? “No, it is big of ME” Lol!

        1. Yes time consuming.i took him to line dance,he was having fun.i slipped out to ride my bike.end of that .he never wanted to do it again.did not like to see me have fun I said I got a coach and got my freedom back ,but spend lots of time wasted.i go out,& got a cleaning person.i was fat.lost it.he wants fattening food.i told him that’s not my not getting fat again.i add fattening stiff to it then.TYJ.thanx linda.nice for support& understanding.the b 12 shots have helped a lot too.

          1. Dianne
            Good for you! Stand up for yourself , donejatbpleases you. Why shouldn’t you? Nobody owns us. If a partner were to ever berate me again, he would be out of my life so quickly. Never Again.

    2. This is exactly what I have tried to help him see. I noticed that when I say it outright, as you have in your comment, he WILL NOT acknowledge it. He outright REFUSES to respond or reply in any way!

  6. BTOV. LisaO and Jackie
    This is my situation in a nutshell why I can’t settle
    Six years ago there was 1 million in several accounts. All deposits and withdrawals were handled by STBX. I did not know of these till recently. $12,000 is left. He lost his law license. Evidence of drug use. I found out about prostitutes last year and left. He has dissipated any retirement. He’s a gambler. Evidence of a pimp. Was booking anywhere from one up to seven hotel rooms FOR THE SAME DAY. All this is evidenced in a bank account of which I call Pimp Account. Lots of ATM withdrawals surroundimg hotel times. He says he will not settle for less than half my pension, half my deferred comp and half everything else. I say HELL NO! Deferred comp would have been gone had his name been on it. So he wants half of what’s left. We have one house paid for and one house about to lose. This is why settle my hasn’t happened. I won’t give half my pension without a fight

    1. I was bankrupted by mine.i still mortagedtho,when all other our age are all paid judge in his r.mind would split pen.under could not divorce ,stay apart.or pray 4 girl was sued 4 support.son lives with her,she made more.had to pay him.she went on f.b.had another hearing he caved ,she made a small was a mediation this time.this too shall pass,cept time is passing us by.

      1. The bankruptcy part scares me. And that’s right , at this age I THOUGHT my ducks were in a row. I did right on my end. But the F-tard lost everything he could get his hands on. Thankfully I have a good job and security there. Oh – he wants alimony from me. The man has no pride. Poor guy lost his license and now is feeling a little poorish – he ruined himself and wants me to pay. So – this is why I’m angry – and hate the man

        1. In this state alimony is 1 year only this one had to pay til she died.cant fight court order . you’ll get through this.hope you can mediate something,& he’ll move can make a life.

          1. Pay till death? That is unfair. I’d love to mediate but he is unreasonable. When we first spoke about mediation we could not agree on a mediator. I would love to settle. I just want what is equitable distribution – which is the law in this state.

        2. Lucy,
          How long before he can get his license back? I think the criteria/standard for licensing may be different in other states. I know some states are stricter, see how many years he will have lost them for and if he would qualify to work in another state. How do you know he hasn’t hid monies.

          Regardless, of what you bring to the table I don’t think he will agree. What he may agree to one day may not be the same the next day.

          It doesn’t sound like he cares if he loses everything if he can make you lose too. I don’t think the courts take into account if he has a drug or sex addiction. It would have to be willful fraud on his part I think.

          I wouldn’t show your hand yet, I would say there is going to be a pretrial, first, then you will go from there. Depending on how backed up the courts are and how difficult things get, it will be sometime. Regardless, of whether you think something is, the judge will want concrete evidence.

          Couldn’t you go to the law library and check on precedent setting cases in your state similarly adjudicated.

          1. He actually have up his license after the ARDC made their ruling. They were going to take it so he gave it up before they did. So in essence he voluntarily degraded his career. I don’t know how lng to get not back. He is still licensed in the neighboring state.
            As far as the prostitution the only part that is important is the the spent doing it – which was quite often – that is part of the dissipation count. And the same with the gambling. There was a large amount of ATM withdrawals surrounding hotel uses. Could be drugs and sex. I don’t l ow. He will have to answer to it though.
            As far as hiding money, one account had 400,000 then it was closed. We don’t have an answer yet where it went. I haven’t racked it yet. Checks written to himself. Cash is king. He has some explaining to do. Makes it difficult when he ran his own business and comstantly lies Cannot believe anything. We will have to follow a paper trail

          2. Lucy,
            It seems to me your X has the ability to get a job and refuses, there is nothing keeping him here. I would ask for alimony so you can live in the fashion you were accustomed to. Request he seek employment immediately, and he should be supporting you. He is taking advantage of the courts and manipulating the system to his benefit.

            I would demand this and see how fast he gets upset. You have this wrong he should be paying you.. I would stop paying any of the bills and let him sit. The county will wait for their money.

    2. And please don’t think I’m stupid for not suspecting he was using prostitites. The freak could not hold an erection for more than a minute. Never wanted sex. Could my life be any freakier? It is all surreal. But real.

      1. Lucy,

        It must feel particularly freaky because you found all of this out pretty late in the game. You are still emotionally adjusting. But truly, when it comes to these types, nothing is too weird or surprising. It must feel like you accidentally fell through the screen while watching an HBO series, like Alice through the Looking Glass!

      2. Lucy,
        He in essence resigned pending a investigation or before discipline by the Ethics board. He can get in his car and drive to a neighboring state and practice. Many people drive a hundred miles or more and since the home is up for sale he can move now.

        I would be curious how long he would had been disciplined for and if they may have just given him a fine. These are things I certainly would want to know. Seems to me the man will is capable of providing a nice income for himself. They are always looking for prostitute attorneys. He can relocate easily for employment. You need to look at every angle.

        He may say this such as disbarment, but do you really know? Work in another state. Believe me this guy can paint ugly pictures of you as to why he gambled and cheated. Prove him wrong. Go print off a copy of your states divorce laws. Find out what the LBOR standards are for disbarment or discipline. You may find out that by the end of the D he has satisfied his disciplinary time as they would recognize off time as served.

        This slim bucket has a plan, he keeps draining all the assets, gets your pension, and skips the state. People with addictions are known to do what you are describing and he will cry VICTIM and needs rehab. Just see how many fools will feel sorry for him. Know your laws.

      3. Lucy even if you didn’t suspect, does not mean you were stupid; if a person is under extreme stress their thinking faculties do not work as well, more prone to infections etc.

        Plus these people are pretty crafty cats, not to mention there could be all sorts of reasons why he wasen’t intimate.

        Things are never black and white, but with these snakes things are not only the whole colour spectrum but also include the colours that cannot be seen with the naked eye.

        1. Don’t Forget the punishing motive,for sex,and any thing they want to use their power for.actually they must feel powerless or unuseful to resort to these tactics

          1. The weirdo could not perform sexually with me. The thing did not work. So pays whores to “service” him. I doubt they get any pleasure. He’s a lousy lover. Scum bag, the whole lot of them.

        2. And who wants to spend your time following and chasing these jerks? While I’m at work, thinking he’s at work, he’s working on his you know what. Then I’m at home, cooking, cleaning, he says “I’m going to the office” which makes sense when you have your own practice — and is home by 8:00 — who would know he keeps running to hotels to get his fix? So perverted and sick. I feel disgusted.

          1. Lucy,
            Hugs and more Hugs, I could cry with you too. It’s so painful, I know.

            One thing and I don’t mean to scare you, have you gone to the Doctor and had yourself checked? I was married twice and my first husband cheated on me for which I divorced him. I was terrified he have give me something. Be Safe!


        3. Jackie,
          Excellent insight, you expressed what I feel too. “Things are never black and white, but, with these snakes things are not only the whole color spectrum but also include the colors that cannot be seen with the naked eye.”

          1. BTOV,

            Yes I’ve been to the doctor. The jerk gave me a STD. Then I had to do a year of follow ups to make sure I don’t have hepatitis and HIV. What a disgusting pig. Talk about disrespecting someone. I’m not hurt anymore. No more tears. Just ANGRY! I still am toying with the idea of a civil lawsuit for giving me a disease, of which I don’t even know how long I carried it. But my hands are full. And of course it’s embarrassing.

  7. …if they would all just admit… That is precisely what my nh is waiting for. He has a treasure trove of false future promises just waiting for me, if I would only admit he is right and everyone else is wrong, and promise I will never put anyone before him again. Problem is, he defines all of it and changes the rules as he goes. And he is holding me hostage simply to “prove” he is “right.”

    1. mary
      I’m sorry I don’t quite understand. My STBX never admits to anything Ever. Future promises – sounds like he’s been bad and is promising to be a good boy. And he wants you to agree he’s right – he wants to be assured he’s got your goat? He wants a promise no one will be a better friend to you than he? He sounds very insecure and seems to know you know what he’s up to. But then changes the rules. That’s what all this twisty turvy BYOV was mentioning. Twist it and turn it and nothing makes sense. It’s living a crazy twisted life. It’s not normal. Most people don’t deal with this crap

      1. In the article it says the husband held out for years to hear the wife just “admit he was right and everyone else was wrong.” It’ s the same sitch I’m in. He treated me and my entire family horridly and left me – with an unfinished project in a family member’s home and in tens of thousands in debt then turned and blamed every one of us for his leaving and a bunch of other made up stories. He is now open to reconciling…”IF” I will admit he is right, my family and I are worthless losers, and IF I promise I will never put any of their needs above his again…because that is the view he left with – the reason he made up for leaving…when in fact it was all his own concocted BS…. He has held out providing me with his presence, affection, contact, comfort, all provision, and everything else because I will not agree that his lies are truth. It’s been almost 14 minths since he left following a 3 minute tiff about some other issue. Packed and left and hasnt been back. Sick.

        1. He created a huge mess, blamed you all, and wants you to go along with the lie. That is messed up. What use is he to your family. ? Chaos creator. Ridiculous and sick.

  8. Dianne, You took Sir Lunch-a-lot line dancing. Ugghh. I feel for you. Are there any more time consuming hobbies you could have him engage in? He talks and eats..a lot. Hmmm. Does he have any other hobbies?

  9. Love is a feeling of complete bliss and peace.
    Can anyone have these feelings with someone who is narcissistic ?

    1. You can have feelings of peace and bliss with a narcissist– shortly after they breathe their last and just before rigormortis sets in.

      1. Lucy, that’s hilarious, just seen it, was drinking tea, you owe me a new keyboard!!!

        That ought to be on a metal plaque and screwed to the wall of every former victim’s home.

    1. It’s difficult to leave any ongoing situation.they can’t meet your needs,& they’re not all bad,there’s always some perk,initially,maybe.lot is financial and a bonding,& fear of survival..Co dependant plays out any rate you must make your life & activities happy ones.we need pleasure to survive and current one is narcissistic and Un affectionate.i have gotten strong over time with help,but I do hate psychological friend was driven to counselling by hers ,he told her to get out of the house w/0 him as often as she could.she did.& was much one wants to leave their home and start over,harder as we like this & friends a must.

      1. Diane
        Good points. It is very difficult to leave in many ways. I cried for three months, the tears dried up, then I got angry. And left. This divorce is very costly and emotionally difficult. But I have lots of supportive friends. I have a kind affectionate BF and it’s wonderful after being married to an iceberg. One needs lots of support leaving a CDN. Through all my difficulties – I am glad I left. No longer do I feel that heavy thick dark cloud hovering over me.

  10. Lucy,

    “some abused people just lose it on their abuser and basically dismantle them”

    That happens, too? With an abuser at the receiving end getting injured?


    “If you can’t hate someone who has or is intentionally trying to destroy you, who and what can you hate? That would require God like powers of detachment and or being some kind of ascended master.”

    Buddhism comes to mind.

    But then again, one doesn’t just gain equanamity(I think that’s the word, equanamity). It requires a lot of spiritual practice. And a part of that practice would be acknowledging, observing and gaining an optimum relation of them, so you run them, they don’t run you. As far as I understand, repressing/suppressing the hell out of oneself isn’t going to help with spiritual work, quite the contrary.

    “I think those who moralize about forgiveness and how hatred is ‘bad’ making us ‘no netter than the grandiose,’ are wrong. I also get the uncomfortable feeling when dealing with moralizers, that life might just send one of these creeps their way, one day. Doesn’t pay to judge from a ‘high ground’ position.”

    I don’t know if one could actually practice easy forgiveness, if it’s actually practice-able. If one is resentful of having been pushed around and having failed to hold up boundaries, then that can’t really be called forgiveness. Anyone, who encourages that kinda extra-load, deserves ire.

    I know one great link with apt thoughts on this.

    Though I’m not sure about everything this page says(after all, I haven’t gone through something that extreme), I do think this could be worth exploring. In common myths and misconceptions, it sets up a few good points about some fallacies:

    ” * “Everyone should just forgive and forget.” One way abusers dodge responsibility is by appearing conciliatory. Psychopathic abusers especially are notoriously slick at escaping accountability in any way possible. For “forgive and forget” to even be a healthy decision, people(not just a targeted person) need to keep responsibility on an abuser without letting him/her off the hook. The abuse has to actually be over. An abuser has to actually be of mind to become a better person. That, however, is unlikely. Abuse can’t be just in the calm parts of an ongoing cycle of abuse or continuing covertly with an abuser pretending to have changed. Such often happens after public “amends” have been made. Stopping abuse can’t be just lip service. An abuser has to be held responsible for stopping abusive conduct and improving his own behavior. Even if any of this is possible or likely, a victim of abuse can justifiably be uncomfortable around abusers, even former and repentant ones. “Forgive and forget” is a dangerous and harmful platitude. An unlucky party who has experienced abuse has a right to continue his/her life without any obligation to “forgive and forget” and any interference from an abuser.

    * “Don’t sink to their level.” The extension of the “forgive and forget” and “cheer up, it can’t be that bad” fallacies, this is insulting, insensitive and abusive in a different way. Saying it implies that anything other than easy forgiving and forgetting is petty, childish and vindictive when someone wants to take serious steps to ensure their abusers actually face consequences. If you are dumb enough to say this to someone who has just escaped an abusive situation and wants to make sure that their abuser has to account for their behavior, you are part of the problem and should be fully prepared for their verbal razors. ”

    Not advertise the site itself(just mean this as a statement), but Tv Tropes is less formal than Wikipedia and the editors can’t be blamed for lack of personalizing.

    1. To Tim /lucyi ran into homeless man.asked him what he knew about forgiveness.wise man said,we need to love everybody,but some peopke we have to love at a distance.i have many tots on this.they must never repeat abusive behavior, & must be accountable.& there must be a balance of power.also there is a cycle of invalidation.person #1 abuses o& or invalidates,this goes on for a while until the abused now starts invalidating,or abusing.sometimes self defending.if there is no intervention/change,these relationships can turn deadly,with either party as perpetrator/victim.this has been written & documented.i divorced one after he was sent to anger management.may have cured him but I left.

      1. Dianne
        I’m glad you got out safely. As for the forgiveness part – I don’t feel any desire or need to forgive a person who intentionally harms me. I do even understand forgiveness – especially to one who is not remorseful. I am reaching the point of pity and seeing him as pathetic, and those feelings bring on sadness to me, but at the same time I’m angry and defensive because he still inflicts harm. Lots of emotions swirling about.

          1. Lucy,

            You are right, your STBX is one of the worst i have read about on here, anger is natures way of protecting you.

            In all these discussions, something is being forgotten, SCALE! Where on the continuum ARE they, if they are WAY up there then why forgive them, it only minimizes the damage they have done, it gives them a free pass; they would never understand forgiveness and certainly despise it, they would, without a shadow of a doubt, see it as a weakness.

            Lucy, when indifference comes to you, THEN you could forgive, but only for yourself, do it for yourself, DISCHARGING all the toxic stuff he has bequeathed you, because after all, the process is all about the abused and not the abuser.

            But you are not obligated to forgive, why the hell should you be?

            Forgiveness whilst living under the same roof with a severely disordered person is downright dangerous.

            You must all remember where on the scale your ex partners fall on, anything you read on the net is generalized unless otherwise stated, so it can be naive to apply wisdom to your personal circumstances.

            If they are highly pathological , then forgiveness can only be given when you are apart, affairs wrapped up, and experience a feeling of complete indifference and pity whenever you entertain thoughts about them.

            But it’s STILL your choice.

        1. I was injured first.called police.gave house to him even tho . We were going to sell it.just wanted it over . you’re going to be okay too.ive been through a lot with this one too.i was going to leave .my pastor discouraged me.he was hospitalized.i filed bankruptcy ,for him not me.i have a one credit.then I got some real about emotional blackmail,got some ideas of my my personal freedom back.there are not a lot of books written by people in this situation.this site is perfect.

          1. Dianne

            The pastor discouraging you – that irritates the hell out of me. These creeps abuse, then get sick, the “good” partner feels the obligation to take care of the sick one. As Jackie said, it’s all about scale.And getting your personal freedom back is a biggie, especially after being under the thumb of a CDN. Some CDNs must have some attributes worthy of sharing a life together. All our circumstances are different. I was able to stay with my CDN for so long because I did have a good life – outside of him – and we basically weren’t together much, doing our own “thing”. But when I found out what his “thing” was, that was the end. Plus, the past probably four years he was becoming mean-spirited, miserable, negative and downright mean, not just to me, but to most people. He escalated, possibly due to drug abuse. The downward spiral was clearly evident, especially in retrospect.
            I’ll be ok. Financially, maybe not retirement-wise if he steals half. But my job is good. I’ll always have an income with benefits. And – no pension will have to paid out to him if he dies while I’m still working. I’ll just work till the miserable parasite dies.
            Thank goodness for this site and a year of counseling. She “released” me, thinking I’m ok, to come back as needed. Boy did I need her for quite awhile. My head felt like it was going to explode.

          2. Good share.with my ex things escalated.spirit told me to leave.but had no plan then.remarried still a cdn person,like I said b4. Cried a lot til I got my freedom back.theres no real help ,like books of people who overcame site master knows a lot and may write or teach people thro this.b 12 shots have helped was very bad a few yrs back.better now.i b4 I will refer I got a life ,& after I got a life so I won’t repeat myself…I noticed he seemed to enjoy if he got to me.if I was happy he would burst my bubble with constant complaints & negativity..he manipulated through his anger.which led to fear.when fear left ,I got my freedom then.i got into it b4 I had real healing ,so victimized myself.i really don’t know how most women /men break free.

        2. Good 4 another state.glad you’re happy now & haveBF.going to turn in now midnite here.blessings.

    2. Timothy
      Dismantling the a user – I was speaking of stories you hear about an aniser – usually a husband – being killed by a wife or child. Sometimes they shoot and keep shooting – or stab and keep stabbing – “overkill”. People can be abused to the point of just”losing it”.
      You have some interesting insight there.

    3. Timothy,

      My take on…

      “some abused people just lose it on their abuser and basically dismantle them”
      Yes. I will agree.
      Some abused people break. Some get wised up and leave. Some manage do accomplish the herculean task for improving abuser. Some abused people go in negative cycle of tolerating and building anger inside, and they lose it on their abuser and basically dismantle them.

      “Everyone should just forgive and forget.”
      A typical stance when abuser is cornered somewhat. Forgive and forget works only when other person is repentant about his/her ways, otherwise, f&f is a sure shot recipe to continue the same old cycle.

      “Don’t sink to their level.”
      This one needs qualifiers. I will say:
      – Don’t sink to their level. But, their level must be pointed out to them right at the moment.
      – Don’t sink to their level. It is better to turn away and go away if you never hope to meet them again.

      1. Hi to all,

        I guess a interesting day! I will say for me, I was able to forgive him and he is still being so pathetic I haven’t words to describe the idiocy. I decided due to the anxiety and stress and chronic pain I couldn’t carry his shame on my back so I laid it at the foot of the cross.

        Will I ever forget, – NEVER – I will never forget someone trying to define my reality and telling me when and how to speak. NEVER will I ever take that from anyone. But him the one I loved for all those 31 years I can forgive, just as I can forgive my child. However, I forgive them, they will never be allowed to come to my house harassing me NEVER – I tell them I love them but will not tolerate disrespect.

        As for the X I have to have the DVI reinstated for another 4 years. I pity him he is bringing so much pain and disaster on himself. He sees it only his way. And his way is corrupt and immoral. All I have to do is sit back and and watch him make a fool out of himself. Whining , to every one that the courts illegally distributed his wealth. He thinks everything is his!

        The moron ran up a 400,000 divorce. Is he nuts or what and he still wants to go to court to get back what the judge gave me. Someone said to me, Nuts are Nuts. I just have pain, grieve and so much sorrow, for it did not have to be like this. His grandiosity is all he cares about and one day it will destroy him.

        Timothy, some deep thoughts, I will have to think on them and look at the sight. Andy, you said many things too, I agree on most, but we all have different ways of dealing with our feelings. I can forgive, he has done such a good job at destruction and making a fool out of himself.

        LisaO’ he could be very loving but it was a roller coaster of who’s on fourth and the out right childish rages, walking around like a foolish popinjay.

        I forgive my sister for stealing from me, but I told her I want nothing to do with you until I am paid back. I dislike her tremendously, she is so conniving .

        To God Bless and may you all have peace and joy.

        1. BTOV
          Are we married to the same man? I’m sorry for your illness. These life suckers can bring on so much stress that our body will take a toll
          You are a strong woman. And I know – these leaches steal our energy. I hope today is pleasant for you

      1. BTOV
        You are right. He should be paying me alimony. I definitely am not enjoying the lifestyle I’m accustomed to. I do however follow court orders and until there is a new one I’m pretty screwed. Also, I am entitled to monies that were set aside for retirement but that he spent recklessly.
        Oirnhiuse is for sale. The best neighborhood in town. High dollar homes. He’s living like a derelict there so I repeatedly go there and clean! I’m hoping real soon he gets kicked out of the house so I can show it at its full potential. My realtor said his level looks like a college dorm. And it does. I’m hoping the judge will kick him out. So many issues ….

        1. I’m trying to enjoy my life away from him, but I’m exhausted handling all the motions, the cleaning and the court fees. I’m thankful I understand the legal system. And you all are so important in support of this craziness.

        2. Lucy,
          Why don’t you take the house till its sold. Wouldn’t that benefit both of you. Mine stayed in the house and trashed it. He didn’t keep anything up. Ruined the furnace tore out wiring, all kinds of things. Judge could have cared less. To end things I took the house back to settle the D and have spent thousands to fix things.

          Thats why I suggested you take the house, he could do the same thing and say “it was that way.” The judge doesn’t want to get into this, I’m sure the CDN is depressed know the “gig is up.”

          1. The judge needs to kick him out and let me live here by myself bye is degrading it. I can’t buy it though. I can’t afford the taxes on it. We have a hearing next week. Several issues and not enough time allotted

          2. I’ve been trying to get it. I’ve got pictures,! Realtor testimony. It’s ridiculous. Maybe next week. We will see

    4. Timothy,
      Came across this post of yours. Forgiveness, is at ones own discretion and ability, it is not a judgement at all at least not for me. I know that I have been told I need to forgive by others and it really ticked me off. They didn’t know my heart, I had already forgiven for the fact it set me free. I will never, forget ! Forgiving or not forgiving I believe is everyones individual choice.

      Someone can suggest forgiveness, but then are they going to suffer the consequences of a harmed party because had they not forgiven would not have been injured or killed. I know a woman who spent an additional 14 years of her life and 6 more children because she was made to feel guilty for not forgiving.

      Forgiveness has to be ones own choice. I will say again forgiveness benefits the forgiver the most. For instance the toxic individuals I deal with, did I forgive them, yes, will I go near them, talk to them, have anything to do with them?
      NO, NOT EVER! Will I hold them accountable for everything? YOU BET!

      There is a difference a big difference, in forgiveness and continuing to be used and abused. I understand your thoughts too.

  11. Timothy and all,

    As far as emotions, i.e. hate, pity, compassion, all that, I just let myself feel whatever it is at the time. It’s authentic. There are reasons for my feelings. I feel them, react, not always in a pretty way, but my emotions are there for a reason. I don’t like carrying anger. It feels bad. But I think in due course, when the time is right, it leaves. I don’t carry it all the time, but when the CDN inflicts yet another harm – through the legal system – I feel like my head will explode. Sometimes I break down in tears with my attorney. It just feels like too much. But then it dissipates – till the next time. Forgive him? No. Forget? That’s impossible. But live a life while ongoing all the hardships he brings to me? Yes. I seem to be doing that well. I have friends, a large group of equestrian friends, we ride, laugh, drink, eat. Half my life is great and the other half is hard to bear.

    1. My friend David speer,taught me about out flowing my feelings,and of course I came up with a silent scream that seems to feel like the real thing.i can go now as I please,but am never alone in house.he does out when I do,not with me always.

        1. Think he’s a needy lonely person he has no where to go.i think. wants me home when he’s home.and taken on day i am also going out for instance when he want h.cut.nails clipped, is a little insane to try to figure these people out.

          1. Thanx& yes.i really should practice that on a daily basis to keep myself is another ex.i said I was saving 4a car.he said.I don’t need a car,I don’t drive.this is classic example of how a person turns conversation,any,to be about them.i am not complaining,just making it clear how cdn operates in their mind.i don’t want to be negative about this at fact I used to draw cartoons about this stiff,& abject I’ve lyrics it was funny.,any any upset about it would go in the hilarity of it all.its my job to stay problem is me.his problem is him.i don’t ever want to get or stay down.i have one friend we always end calls with giggles and laughs.but it is rare these days yo find someone on a wave length like this.humor,appropriate,is a real gift.

    2. Lucy,
      I hope al is well with you, I have been so busy. I understand how ugly and difficult it is. From all that you have been saying you are dealing with the same type I had. Just a different, face, facts, scenarios, in the end its the same CDN and everything else.

      I know how difficult and emotionally draining it can be, especially while your still in it and going through it. It seems like it will never end and the CDN keeps drawing it out, the unbelievable frustration watching your life be torn apart and all you have worked for destroyed by the selfish, egotistical varmint of a human.

      Please spend the least amount of time with your attorney as possible, in the end you will regret it when you see the bill she will present you. If there are any questions please come here and vent. We are rooting for you and will help as much as possible.

      Lucy, the forgiveness is for yourself, perhaps, at some time I can explain this in further depth. With these individuals you need to pick and choose your battles wisely, by letting go of things it gave me the ability to react and have more insight to make wise decisions.

      I had to sit back and watch “The Bonfire of the Vanities” of the dissolution of our marriage. Not a pretty sight and very difficult to do. At this juncture it has made me a stronger and wiser individual. I look at it as a life experience in respect to how I have grown.

      I am glad you are here Lucy, I have to deal with mine too. Decisions are not easy to make, but, I must try to step outside of myself and look at everything realistically as if it were someone else and what I would think was the best decision or action for that person to take.


      1. BYOV
        Thanks for all your advice. It does seem we have the same CDN. I am trying to not use my attorney unnecessarily. I haven’t battles I have chosen not to fight. I told attorney today to let the house be taken for unpaent of taxes, i don’t care anymore, that I have lost so much in attorney fees fighting that house that the house is a loser to me. I have to fight for my pension though. The other assets I can bargain with. I’m hearing you loud and clear.

          1. Lucy,
            I am fine, it takes time but am fine, thanks for the thoughts. We need to get you through this and if I need some input I won’t be shy to ask. The weeks ahead will get a little questionable. They don’t have anything else to hang onto. We will talk this weekend about next week. Sure would be interesting to sit in the courtroom and observe this specimen. I had hoped to have someone that knew CD sit in on mine and give me their opinion but the court date was changed.

  12. This could be way out of the line regarding the conversation everyone is participating in but I sometimes have the need to interject to just get a different perspective on my situation and it is this:
    I will never allow my CDN sibling back into my life and I feel like strangling my other sibling and his spouse for reaching out time and again trying to get him to interact with them and their family,all the while knowing the damage he has done to me, our parents to his estranged wife and even to them. I DO NOT get it. I find her actions invalidate what we’ve been through and it’s difficult to interact especially with my sister-in-law when she knows her efforts hurt terribly. She once told me it’s because she is a Christian but really does that trump everything. My H and I feel that his rejection of her efforts is what bothers her the most and she is trying to win him back into her fold. Thoughts anyone.

    1. Sounds like ur not getting thru.intervention may work all parties get together and tell how the behavior affects them including sib & sis in can omit sis seems all families have this at times..this is invalidating to you.on one hand we don’t choose our codependant,wants to make everyone get along.maybe agree to one holiday a year.if behavior is over the top don’t go if s.i.l has sib over.i keep in touch with my bro.send xmas gifts to rest,do not visit them since mom died.i moved away.sibling rivalry,spirit told me it was.battle over mommy all thru childhood.

    2. Sydney,

      I’m just sitting here shaking my head. The “Christian Lady” is hurting your relationships by “helping” the CDN, when really she’s not helping at all.
      All she’s doing is hurting more relationships.

      I know what I’d do – right or wrong – I’d stay away from the sister-in-law also, because it’s just taking on more twisty turvy, as BTOV speaks of.

      Let her have the relationship with the sister, but keep you out of it. I don’t think it really invalidates what you’ve done – everyone has their own way of handling things – but she does need to respect your right to keep the sister away from you, not further intertwining her into your life where you’ve already decided to shut her out of – her and her trouble. damn trouble-makers.

      1. Lucy, thank-you for your reply.
        Just to clarify and not that it makes a huge difference but the CDN is a brother who was notified by mail that he was no longer welcome in mine nor my husbands or daughters life. The retaliatory content of his text was swift, vicious and vile. I had no idea he could have that in him. My other brother and his wife, the one that is a born again Christian have experienced disturbing behavior themselves but my SIL insists on texting him to invite him into their lives. He barely responds because he was caught out in their home telling a disgraceful lie about them to his daughter 9 months ago. My SIL confronted him and he said it was a joke. CDN does not take confrontation or responsibility for nada and now ignores their invitations. She STILL insists on texting him to include him in THEIR lives. What the frick does it take to see sense. Honestly I feel like strangling her at times but for the sake of our adult daughter we want to have that “family” (gag) connection with her aunt and uncle. Every time she tells me she has reached out to him yet once again I feel disregarded. I think she has a hard time coping with his rejection and I cannot for the life of me understand it.

        1. Sydney
          Sounds likes he feels the need to save him reaching out and showing kindness got me nowhere with my CDN. They don’t care what harm they cause. Your sister nimbleness doesn’t understand it – because their behaviors and personalities are so abnormal. Apparently he hasn’t worn her out or harmed her yet. I can imagine how frustrated you are. It’s annoying, to say the least.

          1. Sydney,

            Kind of popping in and out have a lot on my plate right now. I will say this. Everyone here knows I am a Christian, many people are nominal Christians, and others are deep into their faith which I am.

            However, when it comes to dealing with the CDNP unless you are a very mature and knowledgeable individual that knows human nature, many of these individuals that profess Christianity have no business pushing, or interfering in a family situation.

            Unless the counselor is well versed in the pathology of CD individuals it is not a well advised person to try to get counseling from. I had a Christian counselor and they knew exactly what I was dealing with. Both counselors knew it was a lost cause and I didn’t even ask him to go because it would not have worked.

            I would suggest you buy all three of Dr. Simons books and something in the next several weeks Dr. Simon will have a new book coming out. “How Did We Get Here.”

            I divorced myself from these individuals, about the only thing you can do is kindly explain your differences and suggest a reputable source that knows how to deal with these CD individuals. Learn and educate yourself because these people are everywhere.

            All these family members want to do is pull you into the loop of dysfunctional triangulation. The do gooder’s with good intentions only prop up and help the sickness to continue instead of demanding responsibility and ownership and enable these sick CDN to sink deeper into their sick perverted thinking. In essence these people need to grow up!

      1. Sydney,
        I take my previous comment back. I read your second post later.
        She is probably more Christian than bleeding heart. She is trying to redeem the fallen souls the way a preacher will preach a true Christian should do. I think that should be fine with you, as long as you are not impacted. You can state your opinion with her, but if she wants to chase a black hole, it is her choice.

  13. Lucy & Andy,
    Thanks so much for your input.

    “We don’t like confrontation” is my SIL and my brother’s go to phrase but what I hear is “We don’t mind being disrespected”.

    I felt and remain feeling like the sacrificial lamb, I went to them a few years ago and poured out my heart and told them how much CDN brother masks his true self. Could someone have at least said “I’m so sorry you had to go through that and we are always here for you”.
    They said nothing! What they did do was throw out the red carpet for the CDN a-hole from then on and excluded us. Eventually his masked slipped ever so slightly one evening and he revealed some of himself to them, and still they continued to “chase the blackhole”. I have arrived at the opinion that she is one of the biggest enablers I have ever encountered but uses “I’m a Christian” to stop the argument. I have very little respect for her and less for her husband the ass kisser.

  14. One more thing, the CDN brother alienated himself from everyone in the family and so the Christian SIL and her ass kisser husband felt they needed to be there for HIM because “he has issues”. I’d like to ram that phrase down someones throat.

    1. Sydney

      Family members cause so much grief because “they’re family”. It doesn’t mean we have to deal with their chaos because “they’re family”. I understand why people just move away. I’d just have as little contact as possible with the whole bunch. I understand why you’re hurt, betrayed and angry.
      A co-worker of mine, when speaking of my STBX CDN said “I feel bad for him”. My head exploded. I said if you want to feel bad for someone feel bad for me! He’s abusive! Continuous abuse! She says, “but it’s so sad.” He’s not sad. He’s mean. People see them as a lost soul and want to help. Just wait till they get on the wrong side of them.

      1. Lucy,
        Thank-you and yes my husband and I will interact with them on a very superficial level from now on in. You nailed it with the scenario you had with a co-worker. GRRR.

    2. Sydney,
      There will come a time where he will turn on these individual too. It may take weeks, months, or years but they will grow tired of him. In the time being they are his door mats. Try to detach, sit back and watch the ride!

      1. BTOV
        He did turn on them but SIL and ass kissing brother keep reaching out to him, CDN simply ignores them. Why is he worth their energy and concern when he has blatantly hurt everyone he is in contact with. My SIL is more persistent than the AK and it baffles me. I know it’s hard to comprehend abnormal behavior like the CDN displays but what does it take to prove what I’ve gone through with CDN….bruises? On the other hand my friends and this forum are the best places to vent and get validation. But family (sigh) are a whole different breed.

  15. Sydney,

    Some of them never wake up and that is their problem and then their are others who just like to interfere and others are just plain ignorant. You can only control your own life. Start working on you, your understanding and knowing how to deal with these CD individuals.

    In the end its sad but the most healthy thing you can do is put distance (walls) and have as little contact as possible. Its not easy, but believe me it will make a difference and you will enjoy more happiness.


  16. Sydney,

    I am one of the ones here that don’t have a Family dynamic with a Narc/Psychopath, but i study it and the advice you’ve been given here is excellent!

    You have absolutely done the right thing by booting this person out of your lives, and as you read the accounts of others here, you will see the jigsaw puzzle form, there will be so many accounts with small recollections that match your own that you will gasp!

    There is one thing to be grateful for, at least the CDN isn’t pursuing ‘active’ Triangulation from what you’ve written, he wants to be ignored from what i can gather, with the current sympathies of your other Family members he could wreck utter heartbreak if he decided to do so.

    1. Jackie thanks for your thoughts. I’ve read Dr. Simon’s books and I did research before finding this site and it was such a relief to find out that I wasn’t alone. I checked off many boxes when it came to this CDN and his behaviour in the family. Unlike anybody else I am the only person that’s set very strict boundaries and went no contact. He has left a path of devastation starting with my parents who passed away in 2014/15. They left thinking his character flaws were all their fault. Neither parent could phathom his thought processes because normal people don’t go where he does. This CDN is the type to divide and conquer and tried it on my husband and I but he met his match when he moved back to the same city as I live in. It’s the rest of the family that is in la, la land no matter the proof. CDN tried to divide us from the SIL and Ass Kissing other brother but he slipped up, denies responsibility and now ignores any attempt of a reconciliation from SIL who I said baffles me. CDN thrives on emotionally abusing so him going silent is no surprise to moi. Honestly today I will move on and keep a very low presence in my SILs and AKs life from now on, and it’s because of their lack of empathy and reasoning that has killed it for me.

      1. Good move,we need to be apart I think to heal from all their hurts and harmful to us,acts.good share.i had to get away from my family,my bro was ok.he was away ,career army all those years..

      2. Hi Sydney,

        Ah so he DID slip up, (the Daughter comment?) and because he was found out he skulked away, thank god for that!

        “Normal people don’t go where he does”, yes, absolutely!

        It’s an extremely wise move to keep your distance from every facet of this spider web, maybe he enjoys your relatives efforts to bring him back into the fold, probably makes him feel important.

        So sorry to hear about your Parents, that’s just so unfair!

        They ARE very strange people aren’t they?

        1. Jackie, yes he skulked away….very good term, and yes CDNs are very strange people but fascinating too? I am very thankful I never married one or was parented by one. I feel the pain for those that have and hope they find peace.

          1. Sydney can you imagine being parented by one, what utter horror! Especially if you were the scapegoat child!

  17. THE mother and The Grandmother took from me my family. Namely my Brother.I had one once. He has gone to far their way now. I cannot reach him.

    By Helen Steiner Rice

    Friendship is a priceless gift
    That can’t be bought or sold,
    But its value is far greater
    Than a mountain made of gold.

    For gold is cold and lifeless,
    It cannot see nor hear,
    And in your times of trouble,
    It is powerless to cheer.

    It has no ears to listen,
    No heart to understand.
    It cannot bring you comfort
    Or reach out a helping hand.

    So when you ask God for a gift,
    Be thankful that he sends,
    Not diamonds, pearls, or riches,
    But the love a real, true friend.
    That WAS my Brother

    1. Sorry & sad for the loss of your friend & brother.i know no one can replace mine who we reconnected after a time apart.a more beautiful poem I have not heard,heartfelt thanks for sharing your love ,strength and hope.

    2. Hi Joey,

      Take some heart from the fact that when they are ‘alone in their heads’, with no person or activity to distract, they KNOW exactly what they are and what they lack!

      If they were happy with themselves, or at least, relatively comfortable in their own skins, they wouldn’t have to Triangulate, they only feel ‘whole’, or a poor facsimile of it when they wreck other people’s equilibrium, so they can stand in front of the ensuing reflection of the pain and humiliation, like a diabolical hall of mirrors; then they ‘fill up’, they are whole, the pieces that make up their characters are the damaged aspects of other people’s psyche; they actually build themselves out of the grief and sorrow they have caused in others.

      They HAVE no true authentic self, they are the Frankenstein’s monster in your life and unless you escape, under your roof.

      1. Jackie
        That is all chilling – and true. My STBX states in an email to me months ago how he was looking forward to the court battle. I could feel the cold and ugliness and his sneering just through reading it. And I know he loves and thrives on the battle. A Disbarred attorney CDN – could there be a worse combination to divorce?

        1. I cannot think of one Lucy, he has all the knowledge and the tools to aid him in battle, along with a character disorder, what a nightmare.

          And the fact that he was ‘big pimping’ after he lost his job as an attorney, the mind truly boggles at THAT combination.

          His behaviour is exactly the type described in Hervey Cleckley’s Mask of Sanity, i read it and scratched my head and thought, “What drives the thought processes of these people”? They don’t sound all there.

          But remember Lucy, in his own head when he is alone….

          Where do you go to my ugly,
          When you’re alone in your bed,
          Tell me the thoughts that surround you,
          I want to look inside your head, yes i do…..

          1. Ok. That just gave my whole body the chills. I cannot imagine the torment – ok – I say that, but maybe he’s not tormented at all. He probably lies there thinking of new ways to torment me.

          2. Hi Jackie, Lucy
            I popped in the middle. Your poem is so well said, I know what goes on in some of their heads and it is a chaotic, discombobulated, slithering, mass of and many times shrewd, precision connivers.

            Yes, they do lay there awake thinking of how they will get justice and get even with you. In your case, Lucy, I think that is all he thinks of, that is why he creates havoc every opportunity he gets even though he is a recipient of his vindictive tactics in trying to make things difficult for you. I am not trying to frighten you. His time is drawing to an end and he wants to make it as difficult as he can for you and make you as miserable, prolonging the torment. I am sorry, Lucy.

            We know he knows how the system works, but from what you have said about what he has done, I think he is in over his head. Lets say at this juncture – His Head is so Far up his A__ He can’t see the Light of day!!!!!

            Meaning, when you do go to court he will make a fool out of himself. All you need to do is sit back and watch the show. Give him enough rope and he will hang himself in the end.

            The judge or commissioner is only interested in the facts. He will try to make himself look like the victim. I am sure he is directing his attorney who must be a creampuff wimp, is CD like him or is a high functioning N attorney. I think there will be conflict between him and his attorney.

            Lucy, at these hearings the only things usually heard are the issues presented in the motion, if there are underhanded issues they should be brought up but there usually is only a certain amount of time allotted for each hearing. You probably can check the schedules and know how much time you will have to present your complaints.

            Try, what ever you do not to get emotional, do not look at him or respond in any way to him. Look at the judge when you talk do not have any eye contact with him whatsoever. This will put him off balance if you do not respond to him, act as if he isn’t even there. Do not shake your head, or make faces, only slip notes to your attorney and let her talk.

            If the courts suggest you talk all together, don’t ever think that you can trust him to act in good faith, it might be more money but ask for a mediator who is usually less expensive to talk back and forth with. If there is difficulty that will be relayed to the Judge.

            Be ever so careful, the Judge forms an opinion and bases many of there decisions on how one conducts themselves. Ask your attorney to ask for a hearing date if you have all your discovery done. A trial will be very expensive which your STBX seams to want.

            Don’t think he will be thwarted by the revelation of others finding out about his conduct, he will deny much of it, blame you for it, making you out to be the abusive wife that forced him into the conduct he has gotten involved in. Don’t be surprised if he becomes the victim and you the perpetrator.

            Be prepared for anything, this will give you a lot of mental and emotional strength knowing this ahead of time. Build your resolve and fortitude knowing he can’t touch you, your soul, your being, he will in the end know he lost control regardless of the monetary cost, he will know that he didn’t destroy you.

            Remember it is about control and if you want something he will want it. So if you can don’t let him know if there is something you want, save it till the end.

            I don’t know if I told you this or not, if the Judge finds there is to much confusion and animosity, the Judge can order an auction of all assets and divide the proceeds.

            Question? Is it feasible to offer to let him have the house and you keep your pension. Stop everything now give him the house (let him sell it) take back your name and sever everything with him. I don’t know enough about your situation, is this a possibility?

            I am afraid this CDN is to far to gone and is going to be this way to the very end.

            Blessings and Hugs and Hugs

      2. I disagree, Jackie.

        I think such a person is happy enough in their own skin. I find that easy to imagine and accept.

        Such a self-reinforcing, self-congratulatory inner realm is closed to any constructive feedback and keeps telling itself it’s still right even when it knows full well it’s not.

        It does sound plausible, though, that some people build themselves up by causing others’ pain. You didn’t claim that’s low self-esteem, so please don’t get ideas I’m trying to put words into your mouth or anything. 😀 But leaving a mark on other people in a negatie way seems easier than positively and it’s really sad. A person without any compunction to do that has it easy to do. And each conquest grows that skill.

        1. Timothy,

          “and keeps telling itself it’s still right even when it knows full well it’s not”, there’s your answer!

          Don’t interpret what i am saying as feeling guilt, they don’t feel any if they are high on that scale, but they know they have taken, in some cases, the easy way out, as you have said yourself; as people who, again, in some cases think of themselves as high achievers this MUST sting.

          Some of them are indeed comfy in their own shells, but not all by any means, they don’t suffer from depression apparantly, they don’t suffer much at all, emotional apparatus just isn’t there, but they DO enter what Meloy called a ‘Zero Point’, usually after a huge defeat or an unmasking, THEN they have a realization of who they are, the walls of denial, deflection, and fabrication come crashing down.

          They then start building those walls all over again. They do not learn from it.

          I WAS surprised by Narcissism Survivor’s youtube vid when he said that they actually hate themselves, because i used to think the way you do, but actually it makes sense, for SOME of them,

          He had the misfortune of having a Narcissistic Mother.

          Again, it is all about scale, i said a while ago that i am sure there are even varients of Narcissists/Psychopaths, Psychology and Psychiatry is still very young after all.

          The seven emails in 20 minutes sent to Lucy by her STBX with no response from her recently had me thinking, his mind must have been racing with very uncomfortable thoughts during that time, so acted like a maniac to restore equilibrium.

          Varients, Scale, any comorbid mental conditions in the person, and they DO sometimes occur even in the Psychopath, Bipolar is one i can think off right off the top of my head, need to be taken into account, so very hard on a message board sometimes.

          1. Will add to this that ‘intensity of feeling’ will be weak compared to ‘Neurotypicals’, so guessing that when their defences break down they still won’t suffer as feeling people would do.

            But then again, it’s all about scale.

            As an aside, Neurotypical was originally a term used for anybody not on the Autistic spectrum, then widened out to include Dyslexia, ADHD, then the Scientific bodies took it to include Narcs/Psychopaths.

            I’ve mentioned that we have an Adult Autistic Son, and we as Parents recognise that we ourselves are on that spectrum, that’s what got me interested in this field in the first place; although a friend recently told me that i was interested in Psychopathy specifically since School, a LONG time ago lol, but i don’t remember it.

            By the way, don’t beleive that Autistic people, Aspies don’t feel, we do, some of us are very good at reading another’s emotional state and can empathise.

            My son always made good eye contact and comforted me in his own way if i felt unwell, a lot of myths flying around.

            Once again, scale:)

          2. “they actually hate themselves”

            I don’t believe that bit for a second.

            It’s something that’s been believed for long in psychology and been proven false many times.

          3. Jackie,
            I am popping very quickly here and I hope to add more later. I need to reread but tend to agree with you on this. Since I have had contact with many of these individuals. They present on a vast spectrum and continuum. I think where we are now in the diagnoses of these CD compared to 35 years ago is groundbreaking and we have only touched the surface.

            The CD that Lucy is talking about specifically the several emails in minutes I would speculate are several reactive emotions going on anxiety, panic, anger, etcc…. but mainly it about his losing control of his object and in that he is losing more control. This is a blow to his ego that he is losing his control of her. His world is falling, and he is becoming desperate.

            Never, under estimate their resiliency and Jackie there is so much we don’t know. Many things that haven’t even been considered. We must not make excuses for them by any means nor go near them unless we know what we are dealing with. A harsh terminology but they are like a rabid dog. At the same time we can have a good idea that they are CD but unless they are truly psychiatrically evaluated we don’t know truly what we are dealing with except to proceed with extreme caution. I will try to get back later, this is a topic of great interest and close to my heart.

            Blessings to all and to all the CD a blessing if you could be healed!

        2. I don’t think my CDN is happy. I think he derives pleasure from inflicting pain on me in particular. He derives pleasure from in his distorted mind “winning”. I guess “happy” is a term that can hold different meanings to different people. My CDN is a miserable man. It’s kind of like saying that a terrorist is happy in their own skin. They get pleasure from the kill because they think it’s justified.

          1. Indeed Lucy, is there a “Happy Terrorist”? Interesting question.

            Timothy what Psychology believes today and finds out Tomorrow are two very different things a lot of the time.

            Some of them probably do, SOME, being the operative word, trying to explain this as best i can.

            Quite a few people who have had personal dealings with these types of people have said that they believe they hate themselves, or at least despise themselves; and there is a good chance they are more accurate than a Clinician.

            Besides, this may even come into the Neurotic/Character driven schism as to whether they hate/despise/dislike themselves or not.

          2. Jackie,

            “Quite a few people who have had personal dealings with these types of people have said that they believe they hate themselves, or at least despise themselves; and there is a good chance they are more accurate than a Clinician.”

            PErhaps that could be a case that someone, who’s had to deal with a person like that, has had some things about themselves they have repressed and then project onto the other person, in those cases a character-disturbed individual. Thanks to defense mechanism of projection, the lens with which they see a character-disturbed individual is distorted and thus inaccurate. Any small signs can be distorted to to look like a”proof” of neurosis, when it may be conscious deception or indicate another kind of issue entirely.

      1. No Lucy not tormented, they are never that, just a knowledge of who they are, believe me the bright ones know full well their deep failings.

        There is one youtube vid i recommend, Narcissism Survivor’s one entitled something like do Narcissists like/love themselves, you will soon find it; watch it and laugh:)

      2. BYOV
        Everything you said in that post is right on point. My upcoming hearing has for issues and 30 minutes. Impossible. I will take your advice – no sneering etc. we do have some large assets I could bargain with pension. It would still be unequitable but I understand what you mean about the fees. They are already enormous. We are getting close to having discovery done. CDN attorney is a sneeze bag himself and they will not get along. My CD cannot be contort or told what to do. Yes he is too far gone. He’s giving my adult daughter grief now – abusing and bullying her – cause he’s mad at me. It never ends

        1. Lucy,
          There are some options, you need to think smart. This is about getting in their head just long enough to predict what they will do. I don’t want to scare you but mine cost close to $4 unbelievable the ignorance that can go on. If he wants to be a real jerk which I know he is he may not settle for anything and pursue a trial.

          He is getting attention big time and he doesn’t want to lose that. Then there is post judgement. Make sure to ask under the circumstance you are able to get what you are awarded and he has no controlling interests.

          If property a vehicle anything that has a title or needs his signature that is signed over to you, make sure the documents are present in court at the time of the hearing . Another thing, if you are requesting something to be awarded to you and the judge needs to sign the order, have your attorney write up the order in advance. She can do a type of fill in the blanks order.

          The judge will assign either of the attorneys to write up the order. You may want to get a copy of some of the transcripts for further use if he is difficult. Also, his attorney could write the order and it would not be the exact directions of the judge. If you know shorthand, write it down, it may come in very handy.

          Believe me this could only be the beginning, and I have bad vibes with this. I am trying to guide you the best I can from the info you have provided.

          I don’t doubt he will claim he is provided for your child also to get the sympathy of the courts.

          1. Lucy,
            What is the upcoming date? Have the check in court for him to sign over to you, if that is what your asking for. If you are asking for a vehicle, be prepared to go get it immediately or he may sabotage it. Request that you have a local officer present.

            Believe me he will twist your words into something else. I don’t believe he will do anything the courts tell him to do. At this juncture are you going before a Commissioner or the Judge?

            If there is only 30 minutes you better have what you are asking for prepared because if his side starts talking they will waste it.

            I think I can almost predict the next move this devious moron will make. If this is only a pretrial hearing don’t show your hand, don’t let him know what you want period……….. Go only for the here and now. Is there anyway to get your daughter out of there.

            He is out to make everything as difficult as he can, money doesn’t matter, he is past the point of reason.

            Be so careful, I will try to help as much as I can. I can’t impress enough not to look at him, do not even speak in his presence, nothing, give him nothing, he is a scary individual and is capable of anything, they become desperate.

            It will knock him off balance if he doesn’t get any reaction from you. He thinks he can push your buttons don’t let him, if you do you feed his ego.

            Warm Hugs and Blessings

          2. Just as a side note – the judge does not like him and has very little patience. Yes – the post judgment is a whole nuther costly situation. Judge will have both attorneys present an order then the judge uses one and edits it. CD will not come out smelling good – no matter what lies he tells. His character has already been discredited by the ARDC and Appellate court

          3. BTOV
            I’ve been stressing forints for my daughter to find a roommate and get out of that house. She has a meager income and a toddler no husband and no support from deadbeat dad. He’s a druggie and out of the picture and we like to keep it that way. So CD crossed the line with her – and she has a potential roommate in the works
            Hearing is next week. We are prepared Hopefully we get more time if the 1:00 hearing settles behind us. CD is running out of money. My guess is his employer will loan him money for a court battle. I am willing to settle to something reasonable and that I can live with even if it unequitable. I keep hoping the jerk will just overdose and die. Isn’t that an awful thought?
            If he is awarded my pension I’ll just keep working till the devil dies. Then I’m back to getting 100 percent. He has hypertension, drinks and drugs. How do these people live so long?

          4. He’s told me he will not settle for anything less than half my pension and half everything else. I cannot settle for that. It’s not enough.

        2. Lucy, when you say “too far gone”, i imagine a wizened old man, barely recognizable, with bits falling off…..

      3. To all,
        Has anyone noticed if Suzi has posted yet? Suzi was having eye surgery and said she would be gone. I pray everything went well for her and she is recovering. Please keep her in your prayers and thoughts. I feel all who have been here and shared have left a part of themselves for others.

        Blessings sister Suzi

        1. No BTOV,

          I am getting a bit worried, although chances are she is making sure she has healed before coming back here.

          Yes, i will send the good stuff her way:)

    3. This is a poem of helen steiner rice.disregard this was forwarded from an e mail I received. Just the poem please!!

  18. SOCIAL CHAMELEON-ISM. Thats what he is now. He now likes to be called by a diffrent name now. He has had several. His latest is Yeti. He is now a security guard for a Night Club.

    1. YES, SOCIAL CHAMELEON-ISM, perfect, that’s the modus operandi for quite a lot of them.

      Bizarre Joey, just bizarre!

      Another candidate for Cleckley’s Mask of Sanity, some extremely weird people described in there, honestly, if any of you haven’t read it yet, please do.

      It’s free on the net.

  19. BTOV,

    That poem isn’t mine, it’s the song “Where do you go to my lovely”, with one word changed; Peter Sarstedt don’t sue me!!!

    Lucy, when your revolting STBX has been hoisted by his own petard, PLEASE come on here and let us know:)

      1. Lucy over the weekend lets plan to be here. Ill try to answer and help you with this. I am very familiar with processes. I have a few other suggestions but I am afraid he is going to want to go to trial.

        Don’t ever wish anything bad on him, pray for his soul, it will release you and give you peace. Believe me he will bring more grief and misery on himself than you can imagine, just look what he has already done and he still on a role. The pathetic charcuterie of a once intelligent attorney.

        Hold yourself up high to the standards of dignity and respect to yourself and to all. Do not think like him or wish him the ill will he does. When you go to court if you have to a address him or his name refer to him as MR. and always conduct yourself in a professional lady like fashion. I can tell you your conduct speaks volumes and volumes. Don’t let anyone or give the impression to anyone that you are anything like him. One swear word, dirty look or getting upset could turn tables on you. Later

        1. Ok. I’ll keep in touch. It’s going to be a hard day next day. I get so frustrated. I don’t know if you’ve caught onto this yet, but I work in the court system, so I know it well. My attorney tells me to stay in my office till she needs me so as to have no interaction.

          1. Lucy,
            Heed the advise of your attorney!!!!!
            Try not to talk with anyone about the divorce now, I know I have been there this is why I have been telling you and offered it still stands. Be careful ever so careful what you say to anyone. In a time of distress and emotional turmoil of such magnitude we can feel so helpless and just want to get the sickness out of us to vomit it up.

            He will use anything he can, friends, start anything even make things up. CYA so to speak, have no communication with him what so ever not even with friends NO ONE only through the attorney. This can only be the beginning and get very ugly. Don’t give him anything, that is why he sends the desperate emails and will try anything now. NO CONTACT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            FOR ANY REASON !!!!!!!!!

            Hang in there, this too shall pass, in the end if you stay on the right path you will come out a stronger and better person. You have a good family of support here.

        2. Lucy LOL!!!!!!!

          Keep strong, we are all rooting for you, go get the b*****d!

          Nice poem, i remember it from childhood.

          1. Jackie,

            I figured. My replies are distorted all throughout because it seems to run out of reply placements.

      2. You’re welcome Lucy, stay strong, there are a lot of good things waiting for you at the end of this present ordeal.

  20. Lucy please remember

    It matters not how strait the gate,
    How charged with punishments the scroll,
    I am the master of my fate:
    I am the captain of my soul.

    By William Ernest Henley From Invictus (Latin for unconquered)

    1. Joey,
      If I may call you Joey, absolutely beautiful, thank you for sharing this encouragement and making my day. I am going to have to write this one down and post it on my computer screen. (Big Hugs)

  21. BTOV,

    Replying here as don’t want to interrupt the flow between yourself and Lucy, as that is very important.

    Regarding your post concerning the amount of discomfort the CD feels yes you are spot on, it all depends on spectrum, life experience, failures, triumphs, current and past mental health, physical health, the list goes on.

    I had a very vivid picture of Lucy’s STBX panicking, absolutely, and very angry, and anxious, as you say; now some Narcs would not feel the anxiety, but i can imagine it in spades in this case.

    You are right, never underestimate them, as when they return like a zombie from a defeat or series of defeats they can be tougher than ever, that wall was built to last.

    Rabid dogs, yes, that paints a very detailed picture also.

    No excuses for them, yes they can be impulsive, stealing is one impulsive activity that is common to them, but violence is cold and instrumental, whether that be physical or mental, also if they are very disordered then feelings, even positive ones, will be very muted according to Hare’s and others findings.

    Shame and Envy has been noted as existing in them, but shame isn’t for the things they have done, it’s a brief realization of who they are so once again it is all about them, self, self, self!

    Nothing of good lasts with them, it’s transient, weak and counterfeit.

    Are they a victim of their brains, or did they themselves design them? I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the latter were true.

    1. Jackie,

      Very interesting.
      “Shame and Envy has been noted as existing in them, but shame isn’t for the things they have done, it’s a brief realization of who they are so once again it is all about them, self, self, self!”
      My STBX broke down, sobbing uncontrollably when the local newspaper published an article of him in detail about his legal downfall.
      Was he sobbing because he was sorry he did it? Absolutely not. He blamed his secretary and one other person for the crime he committed. He was sobbing because the community found out what he’d done. He was outed. It was the “appearance” of what he is that so bothered him.

      1. Lucy,

        This is exactly what Dr. Simon is talking about in the topic.
        This is my feed on what you are reporting. He hit a bottom, for a moment, two moments, the realization of what he had done, but in the next moments he already had reverted back to himself. Ah, the Blame game, the magician pulled from his hat, the poor secretary to lay all his transgressions on, the Scapegoat.

        For many the pain of taking responsibility will take an enormous amount of crawling at the bottom and many will crawl and swim in their self created cesshole slime taking anyone with them and destroying them as sacrificial lambs till the very end.

        Humility is the key that is lacking in these individuals and they would rather suffer any humiliation rather than submit to a power higher than the almighty OZ. Like Dr. Simon says “Legends in their own minds.” Lack of humility is key in the CD.

        There is more than meets the eye in trying to figure out and wrap our heads around these individuals which I am guilty of. You cant even get a qualified Doctor in this field of medicine many times to make the right diagnoses.

        1. Isn’t hitting rock bottom by definition that one can’t revert back to old self, because certain pain threshold’s been breached and even last ditch efforts have failed?

          Dr Simon, would you please answer this, too? I’d love to have some clarity.

          1. Timothy,
            I didn’t say “Rock Bottom” I said a bottom, big difference. The individual I alluded too and not having all the information, opined only what I have dealt with and the limited information supplied by that individual poster.

            I know people who have hit “their Rock Bottom” and have changed. I have written about them. My sister in particular who jumped off an 80 foot bridge and survived, living in a hospital for a year, on life supports for 3month and numerous operations that left her a paraplegic.

            Bottom, NO, Rock Bottom, YES, big difference, sometimes one needs to lose everything many times over, and yes I know someone that bitterly lost everything 3 times and is finally getting it after all that and more. I may write about someone else that wasted 50 years of their life, losing and hitting numerous bottoms until they hit their proverbial “ROCK BOTTOM.” What they all had in common is their COME TO JESUS MOMENT. In their stories or should I say testimonies, is in all cases JESUS was the determining factor in their ultimate transformation.

            These stories/testimonies have nothing to do with my particular beliefs or views. It would be nice and I hope to hear from Dr. Simon as usual, but I think he has answered this question in his book and somewhere in the blog.

            I have started a list of books, how goes it on your end? Perhaps, we can agree on an archived topic to keep adding the library too. What are your thoughts on this and perhaps, a question for Dr. Simon too.

          2. Okay, so that’s what you meant! Good that you cleared it up there.

            As for archiving, I haven’t yet managed to find that reading list. Totally forgot where it is lol.

    2. Jackie, Lucy, Joey,

      I’m in a tizzy trying to get things done so my post may be sporadic will pick up on the thread and if anything is missed please chime in. Please keep posting anywhere if gone we can redirect. Perhaps, LisaO, Vera, Theresa and some of the others will add there insight and wisdom.

      Remember, at times of high conflict and anxiety they can become Manic! That in itself is a reason not to look at or respond.

      There have been disordered who have faked suicide, heart attacks anything to get sympathy and victimhood attention, anything to get you back . Stay away or you may be burned for life. This is going to be a difficult time..

  22. BTOV,

    I meant to ask you this after answering what you asked, but then I got interrupted while writing a comment and forgot.

    So how long have you been posting here?

    1. Oh yeah, sorry, I only now noticed your question when I wandered here. Unless my memory’s distorted, you musta asked me a similar thing. I myself read this blog for quite some time before starting to post. It’s interesting how people’s thoughts start swirling around in head reading all these comments.

      Perhaps a better question would be how long this blog’s existed. Do you know? I have a hazy recall it could be from 2008, around time Character Disturbance was published, but I’m not sure myself.

  23. Timothy,

    Replying here as reply button not available, YES, you are correct about projection, i have read about the dynamics, it’s a two way street to a certain extent, and the people here have said that they realize their involvement within the relationship dynamic.

    No one has ever said here that things develop within a vacuum.

    1. My STBX projects on me. He constantly lies – I don’t lie – but he constantly accuses me of lying and calls me a liar – among other things. we don’t speak now – haven’t in a year besides a few shouting matches – and now I’m trying hard as I can to have No Contact concerning email. He projects his badness onto me. Such a screwball. Tells me things about myself that aren’t true, as if I’d believe him, as if indent know who I am and that he can somehow fool me. What a manipulative jerk

      1. Lucy,
        Don’t read any emails from him, BLOCK THEM OUT! He’s playing with your head, you can stop it by not listening or reacting to them.. As hard as it may be to practice, toss the garbage in the trash can. Its his litter and waste problem.

        Yes, he will do all those things, but believe the people who believe him are just like him. The others will know what they are looking at. The most important thing is you know the truth and who you are! Be strong, start taking back yourself.

        Who cares what lies he tells, what people will figure out fast is who tells the truth. Your composure and dignity in how you personally keep you head and not react, doing your job and acting like a professional responsible adult will speak volumes.

        His lies will get so ridiculous he will look the fool he is and make his own bed. Most people will get sick of the idiotic drama.

        Try to stay calm and relax, I know hard to do. Perhaps, going forward you can help me in my up coming trials. I am hoping to stay strong, not budge an inch and take care of the unfinished business in the courts once and for all.
        Have faith and fear not. You have lots of support here so if you need it come here and be safe.

        1. BYOV
          Thank you. I didn’t know you still were fighting court battles. I thought you were done. The jerk won’t let go will he? I think we become their obsession. It’s sick. I haven’t lately and don’t intend o reading his emails. We can never resolve a thing so there is no point in reading them. Don’t budge if you’re right and you believe you can have success. So many people will say “life is too short” blah blah – yes it is, but does that mean we should live in poverty?

          1. Lucy i thought you said that you had to read his emails for legal reasons, have you resolved this?

            It would be good to hear that you can block him if needed.

          2. Lucy,
            On my Journey I had many people help me. When I asked what may I do for you they replied – It is paying forward, what I have done for you , your thanks to me is to give the help and support I have given to another.

            In telling ones here I am talking about faith and God a lot because he alone for me pulled me though this surreal nightmare. I am in no way pushing my christianity on anyone. So back to you my dear sister on the journey I have tread, my steps are just a little further ahead. I willingly share and humbly give what I can to help you along.

            I had many and especially men who had disgusting divorces and men who had had experience with CD people reach out their hand so if I may be of help to you I will avail myself the best I can. Any goodness in me is of Christ. Take what you feel will help you and disregard the rest.

            I have no family to speak of and when on I left was on my own. I will share this with all. Many years back I had been sexually assaulted at work, it was very bad, so had several other women and the perpetrator was in a position of immense power which made it even worse. This swine was a for lack of a better term was a – Deacon – (at his church, what a pathetic joke. So I understand everyones feeling about religion and churches. I feel the same!

            I would not have been believed had he not assaulted 3 other women and the evidence was so overwhelming he couldn’t lie his way out. He was allowed 2 of them pending charges to retire with rights to all benefits in the future. Then I was attacked for airing the dirty laundry and not covering up for the company, I was not a team player, even thought their conduct was not part of the established rules. I became the scapegoat and the target, however, they underestimated my resolve to fight back.

            To make a long story short and this is only the tip I have told you I developed PTSD. It can be very debilitating. I still struggle with it but in understanding it and integrating the experience and PTSD into me, and use it as a gift, taking the good I could from it and become a stronger and wiser individual. I have an uncanny ability to relate to many people especially vets that others can’t approach.

            I have run on here but Lucy old girl, and endearment, You are where I was years back, and if I can help you in anyway, anyone I am at your disposal. This is what this Site is all about that Dr.Simon nurtured into what if is today.

            May God bless and keep him safe and all who contribute. He created a home for us here a beautiful community of loving souls. So dear Lucy your going to have some tough days ahead, just come here and be yourself. But remember he can request your emails. You haven’t said anything to worry about.

            I offered the other avenue because you can speak freely and it would go no where and I know the system very well. i have advocated for many and it gives me strength to help others, is the good that has come out of the fire.

            Strength and resolve going forward, and all the wonderful people here will try to help. Blessings

          3. Lucy,
            I will be OK, what I have to go through is a story in its self. But lets get you in the right place. As I said I believe you may have avenues the attorney is not presenting to you and this is no the place to discuss those things.

            This is a place of emptying our emotions and making some sense of it all, a dumping ground to rid the toxins and gather strength to go forward.

            Lucy, he can’t be trusted to talk with, he is looking to bring you down not compromise of settle anything. Its about control and feeding his ego. Let him find another host, start to build a hard shell, that he can’t penetrate any longer. If he wants to blab, let him talk to his attorney.

          4. Jackie
            I receive some bills he emails to me. I could go online and get them. And I was trying to resolve some issues without attorneys involved because me fees are enormous but I was never able to resolve anything. Just ended up a badgering session

      2. Lucy
        If you have your account numbers to your bills, you can call each company and have them withdraw from your checking account or some take credit cards. You couldn’t talk with him when you were married to him what makes you think he might be reasonable now?

        1. I do that with some. Some bills he won’t pay that he’s supposed to. It’s a dumb setup for two people who can’t get along. I end up screwed trying to keep current. I sick of it He could care less if he owes money and doesn’t pay it. No shame.

        2. BTOV
          What you have gone through, the abuse then the double anise not being believed until validated by others similarly abided then watching the perpetrator receive benefits and backing and no real punishment, much less remorse is a hard experience to bear. The injustice would be so hard to beat. You have fought the fight for sure. And still are. Believe me when I say your words are helping me get through. I understand now when you say only talk minimally of the problem – people just do t know how to support this injustice and insanity that is happening. Some well intentioned friends are really angering me. I had a blow up in my office as of lately concerning some “advise” about what I should do. I need to tuck my issues away and only speak with a few chosen friends who understand the system well. And this site is the best place fore to be right now
          Paying it forward – I will do this when I get a grip on myself bad you say, I have a long journey ahead.

          1. Geez – autocorrect has really messed this up. Forgive me for not proof reading. I’m ising my cell phone. “Abuse” keeps popping up as “anise” or “abided” And by the way, where is Geez Wiz?

          2. Lucy,
            I was talking with a good friend who helped me. This is a man whose wife cheated on him for two years before he found out. This is 20 years ago and in our state he lost almost everything to her because of the children. Yes fella’s a vile CD wife. Her intent with her lover was to cause so much emotional distress he would commit suicide. The day he sat in a corner crying like a baby with a gun to his head –

            Listen very closely, he did not pull the trigger because — he had his
            COME TO JESUS MOMENT! He told me about an enlightenment from God and got up and lived. It was not easy to start over again. He said he used this experience to become the best he could be, he is an honest decent upstanding leader in his community. He reached out to me when I needed help.

            This fellow never got to know his daughter because the wife turned her against him.. He was able to form a lasting and close bonding with his son. The CD wife if she could had had her way she would had
            turned the son on the father too. Except, he decided for himself and found out his father was not the picture the CD mother had painted.

            When I decided to leave the X several months after I left I called this fellow because I knew his story and he was so kind to help me through all this. It was very informative to have the input of a mans side of thinking.

            I asked if there was anything I could do for him and he told me he was paying forward and in kind I should pay forward when another needs a helping hand. I see how much you need someone Lucy, that understands and in no way can hurt you, a safe sounding board.

            I just know how people can change and turn against you and most of them have no idea about dealing with the CD. I am at peace, there is nothing anyone can say or do that can hurt me. Whats coming is unpleasant, to say the least, but as I march forward I gain strength and fortitude. Thats what I would like to see for you.

            It will not be an easy road ahead, a lot of uncertainties and unknown territory, many times sitting wondering not knowing and if you call your attorney it will cost big time. Knowledge is power and it helps to decrease the anxiety and fear. (Hugs)

      3. “My STBX projects on me.” That’s not projection. It’s what you say: “He constantly lies” and “accuses me of lying and calls me a liar” (sic)

        That’s deflecting responsibility, too, diverting everything away from himself, externalizing the blame so he never admits fault truly. That’s NOT projection.

        I meant: ” Thanks to defense mechanism of projection, the lens with which ” another, a more “neurotic”, person sees ” a character-disturbed individual is distorted and thus inaccurate. Any small signs can be distorted to to look like a”proof” of neurosis, when it may be conscious deception ” on a character-disturbed/disordered person’s part ” or indicate another kind of issue entirely “, perhaps something more severe and more of concern, making that disturbed person even more difficult and/or dangerous.

        1. i don’t understand that concept. I feel like he assumes I have bad intentions because he does , or maybe thinks everyone is bad – like him. He’s constantly looking for ill will – because that is him. Not me. I need to break free of this man. He’s like a life sucking leach covering my entire body trying desperately to consume me

          1. Hi Lucy,
            The same thing happened with me with the bills, being the responsible person I am and everything on time and him not paying his made it very difficult. In the end being the responsible on the courts could had cared less. In fact they don’t want to deal with one of his sort and will dump everything on you.

            Did anyone ever thing of the burden it was to me. NO I just had more dumped on me. There are many houses on the market that become empty, or are rented out for the reasons of divorce. Perhaps, If you stop paying the bills because you just can’t, it will be taken out of your portion at the end.

            As far a trying to analyze everything he is doing, just keep it simple. We have lived in the abnormal for so long we forget or were never taught what is normal. I know you have to continually have to deal with the CD and during a time of divorce it is extremely difficult and draining on our emotions.

            Try to look at your situation as an outsider, if you can start doing that you will find more clarity. Try to do more for you and put more time in understanding yourself. I know times will come up and it helps to have clarity. So much lies within ourselves and as you grow in strength and clarity, understanding your buttons which the brat knows how to push, you will learn turn how to turn them off.

            You will get through this, take the experience and learn from them, don’t let him cause you to take on hate and fear and any of the traits of his CD, he would love you to be his clone. Your authenticity and maturity will help to disable the tactics he is using to hurt you.

            Lucy I adopted a mantra, (not mine) I came into this world with nothing and will go out with nothing. What I do posses is my soul. This helped me to build a wall. You will find what works for you.

        2. The Mother had a saying

          “I am highly flattered you are judging me by your standards”

          Reading your post, it NOW MAKES COMPLETE SENSE. Thank you

        3. Timothy,
          This is true, seems to me this is a description in part of a the paranoid.
          Because their minds are so diseased and corrupt they assume everyone thinks like them. They read into everyone their CD thinking.

          Yes, they love toying with your head in anyway possible. Its a game, a challenge, amusing to cause distress and chaos the love to play the controlling puppeteer.

          1. and that is what was so disturbing throughout the marriage – him thinking everyone thought and acted as he did. I thought it was an attorney thing. They have to constantly bicker and fight

          2. Paranoids, they too are scary. But I understand from your comment that paranoids are prone t toying with people’s heads, too?

            Isn’t a paranoid person defensive? Someone please clear this up for me.

        4. This why Dr Simon says Judge actions and not intentions. A very clever man he is. Thank you again for your explaination.

          1. Yes he is wise. Words, intentions, promises mean absolutely nothing to me. Yes action is what matters

  24. Lucy,

    It means the Neurotic person PROJECTING their OWN Neurosis onto the CD. Motives, habits, reasons that they themselves own are projected onto the Character disturbed person.

    Another angle to this is the possibility that the CD encourages the process; knowing the CD’s propensity to know extremely well, or rather, ‘get under the skin’ of their target, it may amuse them to ‘play along with this’, acting out deliberately, knowing the more neurotic half of the pairing will automatically project without any real evidence.

    “This’ll get her/his goat”.

    Just for jolly, as we cockney’s say.

  25. It made me think of what Timothy posted. Please excuse the punch line it was written in 1896.

    By Rudyard Kipling


    If you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
    And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise.

    Stanza 1.

    If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two imposters just the same

    Stanza 2.

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breath a word about your loss.

    Stanza 3.

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
    If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
    And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

    Stanza 4.

    1. Joey,
      You must love poetry, it is absolutely lovely, You will have to suggest some of your readings. I love poetry and have written some but am so busy into this head stuff I forgot the beauty of words and the living life in them. (Hugs) I can’t tell you how beautiful these words are and the first thing I read this morning.

      Thank you

  26. BTOV, LisaO and Jackie and others,

    The court hearing yesterday went well. They were temporary issues, but I WON THEM ALL. My attorney kicked ass! I’m a happy girl today. Keeping up the strength. Thanks to you all.

    1. Lucy,
      Now, he will be fuming. Are you going to have a trial?
      Tell me did you get a glimpse of his face or demeanor, I am curious.
      I am so happy for you, I was thinking of you all day, I know how difficult and stressful these events can be.

      Still, be very quiet at work, don’t tell people your business. Be humble and composed. This will keep you in a responsible and good place. Everything gets around and people like to talk.

      Remain composed and silent. These things I am telling you will keep you in good stead for future events. I am sure he will not walk away without a fight, whatever, you do or say can be used against you. Anything you say can be twisted. So silence is difficult but golden.

      Also, never, ever, add fuel to the fire and your silence will ensure this. People like to talk and they can say she said this and that. Please remember this. STBX will be looking for vengeance and he will not play by the rules, he never has. His mind is more perverted than ever. Low Profile and Zipped up.

      (Hugs) and God bless and keep you safe.

      1. Ok. Yes I watched him speak. He was nervous. He never looked at me. He looks puffy and pasty.
        Next step he will be kicked out of the marital house because he’s turning off potential buyers with his filth. So I’m sure as of now he’s plotting and planning and probably freaking out.
        He lost the hearing on every aspect. And some of it sets precedence of how the judge will most probably rule on the permanent issues.
        Permanent hearing is not set yet, but we are getting close.
        I won’t add fuel to the fire intentionally.
        He was on a witch hunt regarding my recent traffic accident. I handled all the logistics myself, not letting him know of it until the truck was determined totaled, me being hit so hard that it bent the frame. I could see what he was doing – wanting to make a case against me that I’m somehow “impaired mentally” as to the cause of the accident. That’s his conquered up defense of some sort that I have mental issues. I’m lucky I survived that crash with no injuries. A man blew through a red light and hit my HARD. I had to take STBX to court to get the car title because he claims it’s his, he bought it, everything is his. blah blah blah. What a jerk.
        I don’t know what he’ll do next. His theories just are not working.

    2. La La La LUCY!!!!!!!!!


      Those party poppers are waiting….god, what wouldn’t i have given to see that stoats face, i’d buy that for a dollar!

      Sounds like he is strained, ahhhh, poor thing, there ought to be a title for this episode…

      I know, Mr Puffy and the Pin…

      Seems apt he WAS looking pasty seeing as you called him Mr cut and paste:)

      Keep doing whatever you are doing, it’s WORKING! XXX

  27. Reading dr. Simons articles and your comments and replys are helping me so much in the path of regaining my sanity and my self worth. After a very intense year of love bombing, in retrospect already mixed with subtle but effective manipulative tactics to make me feel never good enough, I revealed what was behind the mask. A cold, heartless monster that had been lying, cheating without shame while holding me in his arms making me feel secure and safe. How blind was I!! The shock of feeling so safe, loved and vulnerable in the hands of someone so vicious still nauseates me. Even when confronting him with the facts, proof of the other women he had secretly lined up along with me, he was the victim. The victim of their sexual desires to be with him because of his status and profession (he is a pilot, how sad for this profession to have this cliché played out), the victim of his last relationship, for which he had fought so hard (turns out he has been endlessly cheating on that poor woman too, for ten years) and the victim of me being too angry and emotional. After all, these women meant nothing to him… He was just planning to meet up so he could tell them he was happy with me. (What??) Many more lies and manipulative tactics that eventually had me apologizing for being so angry. Interestingly enough, throughout all my anger and confusion, the moment everything exploded I kept on asking him very direct questions and facing him with the craziness of his reactions and incorrectness of his stories. This led him to lock me up in a room and feed me with more of his bullshit stories and eventually, being confronted with all my anger and refusal to swallow more of his lies he showed me, very briefly, what was underneath. The screaming, blaming redfaced monster turned into a sobbing, hopelessly scared child, right in front of my eyes. Imagine the confusion of seeing right through another layer in the same person in just a few hours time! He cried that he was scared, so scared of everything and of everyone leaving him. It was a matter of seconds before he started blaming me for all kinds of things again. In the horrible, demeaning and respectless monologues he held after this day, he never showed a sign of this again. And after asking him about it, he downright refused that he had ever said that he felt scared, or lonely. It has been a month now and I still have nightmares and a constant irrational fear that ruins my ability to relax or concentrate at work. I am going to see a therapist for this reason. Never in my life have I felt this amount of anger, or resentment for a person and yet, I cant forget the sight of that lost, sobbing child… It makes my heart ache to know that the core of his being is suffering so intensely underneath that monsters mask of control.

    1. Kate,

      “And after asking him about it, he downright refused that he had ever said that he felt scared, or lonely. It has been a month now and I still have nightmares and a constant irrational fear that ruins my ability to relax or concentrate at work. I am going to see a therapist for this reason. Never in my life have I felt this amount of anger, or resentment for a person and yet, I cant forget the sight of that lost, sobbing child… It makes my heart ache to know that the core of his being is suffering so intensely underneath that monsters mask of control.”

      Haha. I think you pinned him good to his bad deeds to make him squirm and change colour several times in few hours. Good job! 😀
      – Hold on to that anger a bit longer.
      – Do not pity that sobbing child. Just like everything else that he is, it may be charade too.
      – Maybe he is a vulnerable narcissist. A vulnerable narcissist may be showing up inflated ego to coverup for a weak core. But, a narcissist is a narcissist, and very likely to remain so for rest of their life. Have pity, but realize that you cannot help someone who doesn’t want help.
      – Visiting a therapist. I think that is good choice. But, be careful, some bad one may send you on a guilt trip, somehow making you feel responsible. But, the truth is he was serial cheater, liar, and outright manipulator. You or anyone else around him will have bad life.
      Good luck!

      1. Thank you very much for your reply Andy. Reading it and all other peoples experiences and recognising patterns in these stories really helps me a lot to keep my thoughts straight and not let the confusion take over. Just like the disbelieve that these kinds of people exist and succeed so well in their own made up world and that the man i loved so intensely is actually one of them!
        ‘Have pity, but realize that you cannot help someone who doesn’t want help.’ Thank you for confirming this. Being a caregiver by nature and profession, it is really hard for me to deal with the feeling I am leaving someone behind in pain. While even when I am typing this I know that I could not help him even if I really wanted to.
        I will be cautious of therapists who use guilt trips, thank you!

        1. Haha and don’t get me wrong by saying Im having trouble ‘not caring’. I am very very angry and will be for a good while I guess. 😉

          1. Kate
            Why should you care for him? It’s wasted energy. Save it for those who are worthy.

        2. Hi Kate,
          A caregiver by nature and profession. Does that sound familiar, so filled with compassion for others. I know it is very painful to walk away. But know at least you are capable of really loving someone and by letting go you did the most loving act possible for yourself and him.

          It makes you want to shake them and tell them to wake up, except they can’t hear. Painful it is, however, this experience will make you wiser and stronger.

          Its always rewarding to hear about someone like yourself that got out of a situation with a CD before children came along. I would suggest if you haven’t already, purchase Dr. Simons books. Be ever so careful, I guess our kind hearted ways are a beacon to these individuals. With all this acquired knowledge we can be who we are and at the same time be able to recognize and not be drawn in by these CD individuals.

          Blessings to you Kate

          1. BTOV

            Thank you for your kind words and advice. Setting boundaries while remaining a loving person and trusting, always, in my gut feeling are life lessons I hope to learn through this experience.

          2. Kate,
            Others might disagree but our gut is not always right. It is a good indicator though. Weigh the heart and mind too. Above all train yourself to understand and look for body language messages. We call them “tells.” Listen closely for small untruths and I mean small, because this small piece may be the one clue that is the determining factor in letting you know the true character of the individual.

            Unless earned I need to not be so trusting. My compassion has been a downfall many times. However, my compassion is what has made me a better person. Taking care of many, that others would prefer to wash their hands of. It can be difficult to walk away from others and let them learn their own life lessons especially when we know the obvious answer. In the end the most loving and productive results may come from this.

            Blessings to you Kate

      2. Kate,
        Remember, he is not crying with sorrow and remorse for what he has done to you. He is crying because he got caught. He is crying for himself.

        1. Kate

          I have anger also. It came when the hurt left and I fully realized how id been played. How dare them. But they did it. I’m glad you’re notaries to the creature. You can walk away and heal and be done with him. It won’t ever happen to you again. You’ll see the red flags. And listen to your gut.

          1. Lucy, thank you. I realise that I am relatively ‘lucky’ that I discovered what kind of person I was dealing with. It would not have taken very long for us to take further steps, including starting a family. He was really pressing this even though I had no real hurry. I wish you and all others so much strength and peace of mind.

        2. Lucy,
          So very true, they not sorry, words are cheap,cheap, cheap, its the actions. They are sorry, for their pitiful selves that they got caught. Crying like the pitiful children they are, selfish as always crying, sulking playing the victim card and you are the perpetrator.
          NEVER, EVER, FORGET!!!!!!!!!

  28. Kate,

    We are survivors. Lots and lots of unnecessary stress though. Never will I have any type of relationship with a narc again. They are not worth a minute of our life.

  29. Dr. Simon, This was a great story/article. I am at a total loss because of someone like this. He is what I believe to be a malignant narcissistic sociopath. If someone constantly pathologically lies, has to own his own business (but, is over a half million in debt because of it,) has multiple judgments, liens, civil/criminal issues, 2 sexual harassment charges against him from two different women one in accounting and one in purchasing, cheated on his first wife, cheated on his 2nd wife, womanizes, exploits and coerces clients, when called on anything he laughs, blames others, will call his wife an old shrew, call younger women naïve and stupid, call his clients worthless, but in the same token will claimed to have found God and quotes scripture. I just don’t get it. He causes PTSD is what he causes, he didn’t find God he thinks he is God. Thanks for letting me vent. Why do these type of men think it’s “Funny” when they are knee deep in debt and hurting everyone around them? He gets to go play around in life at everyone else expense. Please tell me the karma train catches up someday?

    1. CP,

      “Why do these type of men think it’s “Funny” when they are knee deep in debt and hurting everyone around them? He gets to go play around in life at everyone else expense.”
      Yes. He gets to go play around in life at everyone else expense. That is what he may find funny. He does these things because he can get away with those. And, everyone tries hard to explain to him, when he already knows!

      “Please tell me the karma train catches up someday?”
      No idea. But, you can be sure he is going to throw several people in front of the train to stop it, especially near and dear ones that are standing close by to help him in the time of need.

      1. CP & AndyD
        I believe in the end God will judge them and in the Bible it says all of these kind will be “Thrown Into the Lake of Fire.” The one thing I don’t quite understand is all the inocent children that are born to these monstrosities who warp the minds of these little ones and in essence are predestined to become a clone or is it a Choice? I truly believe it is always a Choice. I have found every CD I have ever dealt with knows what they are doing and why.

        The saddest part is, all, the truly innocent people who have tried to live the straight and narrow and are used, abused and victimized. The filthy monsters then have the nerve to call themselves the victims, when in fact they are the perpetrators. Talk about insult to injury.

        On the most recent post I believe Theresa Marie and Lucy are absolutely on the money in screaming to high heaven when the first victimization occurs.
        We accepted to much and others of a kind heart find themselves victimized and in a vicious cycle. The more we know and teach others, hopefully, in part the cycle can be broken and the CD will be exposed for who and what they truly are.

        Its called Refuse to be a Victim! Its a shame though, it took us so long to get to this place. I pray there is justice and remorse, more than anything I would not want to be in the CD shoes. I have enough of my own stuff to own, I can’t imagine theirs.

  30. THANK YOU DR. SIMON for your blog. It is a wonderful resource. Thank you for providing additional clarity and attention to your commentators as well. Your blog is so in depth and insightful, and answers so much, that I haven’t felt the need to ask a single question yet. I can tell you put a lot of thought, effort, and heart into it. You clearly know what you’re talking about with great depth of understanding, AND you freely share it with others, helping many. I bought two of your books tonight.

  31. in this post you say nothing about Jean personality.
    Granted it is ultra-short blog post, but still. She is pictured as a normal-average nextdoor woman, by this total omitting.

    Maybe i once had short relationship with one some Jean as she was braving to demand divorce.
    I would not say that Jean was healthy (nor that it should be expected, of course).
    Sometimes she felt weaseling extremely, diving into pleasures instead of talking. It felt that every talk had to be arranged in a way that the outcome would be of her liking, rather than transparent trustful exchange of facts or ideas. Not that i am myself totaly unguilty of this, but even for me it was a bit extreme.
    And what shocked me, after she talked colourfully how she sufferred during like 10 years with her Martin, at times she seemed to turn on Martin’s hat herself. Like, asking me what i think, screw “think” even what i feel about some situation then attacking me for thinking wrong way and lecturing me what it would be for me a right way to feel about situation. Asking me about my likes and dislikes just to immediately discard them and demand me to swap it for her ones. Being 10-years victim of Martin it felt impossible she would try to mindrape me in similar way, i would expect she would try to prevent anyone on earth from experiencing what she had to gl through, but still… It felt somewhat surreal. Again, she was going through very hard time and it would be unreasonable to expect her to be perfectly sane in all aspects. But the direction her antics came out were verily unexpected to me.
    It felt that she was ever or grew deformed to only being capable of Martin-Jean relationship, and if someone is not providing Martin to her then she would assume Martin role and expect another one to become new Jean. No middle ground, flip or flop.

    I had no interest to become new Martin, nor a capability, so in the end it all went down the drain for us. I hoped (still do but do not know) that as the pressure on her decreases she would start rebounding, her mind still would be elastic to learn median ways.

    But it felt a shocking “fate” like deformation. Like, she grew (or initialky was?) into a tool to reproduce Martin-Jean relationship, capable to take this or that role, but incapable to go out of that framework. At least at that very moment.

    I hope she rebounded eventually, if not then this while Martin-Jean arrangement is a kinda virus, and Jeans better be quarantined medieval-way to die off with their Martin, rather than let epidemy spread. That was one frightening thought to have…

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *