Deception and Manipulation

Manipulation almost always involves deception. And manipulators are among the most clever, accomplished liars. They raise lying to nearly an art form. Manipulators don’t just deceive you about who they are. They also deceive you about what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. Manipulation and deception go hand in hand. Some disturbed characters go far beyond irreverence for the truth. They actually disdain the truth. It gets in their way. And because having their way is their main agenda, they lie to accomplish it. That’s what covert-aggression is all about.

The “Mask” of Civility

Manipulative personalities want you to think well of them. So, they can put on a convincing social facade of civility. But underneath they’re ruthless connivers – out to get the better of you while “looking good” doing it. Sometimes, you can see through their shallowness and superficial time. But sometimes you can’t. And it’s not always your fault when you can’t. Some folks are simply really good at the “art” of “impression management.” You might eventually learn who they really are and what they’re really all about. But that’s usually long after they’ve already “conned” you. It’s like getting whiplash. You know what’s happened after the damage is already done.

Honesty and Character

It’s not enough to just to be willing to admit the truth. Many folks will do that, especially after they’ve been caught lying. Rather, it’s more important to truly revere the truth. A solid character knows the value of the truth – its power to heal, to empower, and to free. But it’s always a choice to embrace the truth. And that’s a choice truly decent characters freely make. Where future manipulators go wrong in their character development is the adverse relationship they develop with the truth. Determined as they are, they often see the truth as being in their way. And they learn early on how  to play fast and loose with it to get what they want. Over time, they become strangers to the truth about themselves and the truth about their intentions.  And they learn how to pull the wool over the eyes of others.

More on Manipulation and Character

You can learn a lot more about how manipulators operate in my books In Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance.

Character Matters on Sunday July 31, 2016 will be a rebroadcast of an earlier program. So, I will not be able to take your phone calls.

Check out my other books and workshop schedule.



79 thoughts on “Deception and Manipulation

  1. Every Friday I wait for the new article. I read them and I try to make sense of what has happened to my life from them. I still can’t, but thank you Dr. Simon – you are truly the one string that is holding me to reality.
    I want to forward this article to my husband. But I have spent a lot of time trying to get him to understand. I can’t seem to come to grips with the fact that he has done so much wrong to me yet he can’t see it. I think that is my cross to bear. I’m now 60 – I have been with him since I was 18. He has done so much damage to my self esteem and I don’t think I’m capable of recovering from that. I care too much. It hurts too bad.

    1. Jean,
      Please hang on and give your more credit. This is not your doing but that of the CDN. We all can work together and help you, I wished I could put my arms around you and give you a big hug. Don’t give your power to him, take yourself back and fight for you. I know you can do it, you are a good person, all this is of his doing. These CD are good at pulling our strings and making us feel bad.

      We take the world upon our shoulders, and we let the CD sit right on the top of all this. Fight and take your life back and fight for what is yours. Read all of Dr. SImon’s books and read the archives it will give you strength. Why should you feel bad when it was him. I did the same thing I beat myself up and we must stop that. Save that energy and fight for what is yours.

      Jean, whatever, you do do not educate him to the fact you are onto him. He will use it against you and it will only make him more deceitful in his dealings with you. Be good to yourself Jean, you deserve it.

  2. Jean,

    I am so sorry you are going through all this. I still have a lot of pain too, I keep thinking he must wake up sometime and see what he is doing. I think we are in a state of shock, still and are being fooled by the good times. I am 61 and figured I spent 2/3 of my life with him, they are and were such a part of us. It is normal to grieve, they are the ones that are not normal.

    Jean, do you have any family or friends that are supportive to you? I was very isolated and left on my own and it was such a surreal experience. I still loved him, but knew it was unhealthy for me to stay. I know the feeling of disbelief, sadness, loneliness and unbearable withdrawal. Yes, we or many do go through a withdrawal. It is the death of a marriage, a union, a bond, part of us die with the end of the marriage.

    The important thing to remember, is you saw through the fog and realized the truth of it all and managed to sever the ties and save yourself from a person that did not have your interests in at all. It’s going to get worse before it gets better. It will get better Jean and it will take time. Give yourself that time and space and be kind to yourself.\

    The longer you stay away and work on yourself and find you again the light will begin to show through. There is a process we all go through on our way to healing and it is different for all of us. You may grieve for a long time, I found just forgiving him but never forgetting who and what he is helped me. I thought I will let his maker judge him in the end. I know everyone doesn’t look at it this way, but it helped me to let go and not let him hang onto me. It is hard to get them out of our heads.

    At the same time it is difficult to wrap our heads around the fact we were married to such a callus, uncaring, deceitful person. The truth of it is at least for me I let him steel years of my life, I will never get back. In being the winner I will make these the best years of my life.

    I am so glad you are here Jeanie where we call all give each other strength, support and validation and hopefully help with other needs. It’s been five years now and it is still painful and I miss parts of him and this is OK. Most important we must never forget what they have done and knowing this the realization of what further damage they will perpetrate if we let them into our lives again.

    For now just take one day at a time and if need be an hour at a time, perhaps just live in the moment. Never lose sight of regaining your authentic self and don’t sell yourself short. There are better days ahead. I found NC was the best way to go, cold turkey instead of torturing myself.

    You take care kindred spirit, we will prevail. The CDN are soul suckers, in the end they will use us up if we let them, this is where we have to say no and be strong. We all will help you as much as we can. Don’t ever hesitate to reach out.


    1. BTOV,
      I can’t thank you enough for your encouraging words – and it helps to realize that other people are going through the same thing. This is a very scary and isolating experience because (at least in my case) I seem to be the only one that truly sees through my husbands mask.

      I am fairly alone. But, I find that I actually need a lot of time alone. I think that is hard for the few people that are supporting me to understand and I fear that my “detachment” at times will cause them to abandon me also. This causes me to “go out” when I think what I really need is a quiet evening at home. I can tell that one of my friends takes it as a personal rejection. I have tried to explain. I’ve always been a bit of a loner – it seems to be even more so now. I fight feeling bad about myself over that.

      I have to tell you that I have printed your above reply and plan on rereading it when I’m feeling lost. It filled me with such hope that I know now I have something to refer to when I need it. Thank you.

      I think our stories are very similar. I do miss him and the good times. In my situation I think the problem is he took over everything for me under the guise of caring. I thought it was caring for a very long time until I saw that he wanted me down so he could care/control me. When I became depressed he would love to comfort me but at the same time he reinforced doubts in my head. How I didn’t realize this was going on for so long I have no idea. He fed my depression.

      Since I left 19 months ago, I have not been depressed once – i’ve been very, very sad, I’ve been hurt – but not depressed. This is amazing to me because depression has controled my life for more than 30 years. My therapist told me a few years ago he wanted me to be depressed because he could easily control me. I didn’t believe her then – I do now. I still can’t comprehend or understand it – but that’s absolutely what was going on.

      I don’t know what I would do without this site and everybody’s comments. Thank you to everyone!

      Much love,

      1. Jean,
        You’ve got a lot of company here. We are going through similar experiences. A good friend of mine is dealing with divorcing an awful CD as well. He’s telling her daughters lies and poor me stories to work them against her. I’ve watched her go through turmoil because he’s beaten her down for years and years to where she also doubted her self. How a person derives pleasure doing this to another human being is beyond me. Pure evil in my book. Cold calculated beating down one for ones own selfish pleasures. She has come around and now “gets it” but it was an extremely tough journey for her. Believe me, there are so many of us dealing with similar circumstances. I guess my saving grace was that I was not beat down but more “tricked”. You have to know the good person you are inside. Dont. ever let the SB steal your sense of self, your soul, your kind heart. And pound his sorry ass in court.

        1. Jean, I feel like you’re telling my story. I just left 2 weeks and I’m looking for strength since mine is so minuscule right now. Thank you for sharing . It helps me a lot.

  3. Jean, it sounds like you, BTOV and I are in the same boat. I dated nxh for four years and was married 45 years. I was 62 when we separated.

    Your husband is not capable of understanding. Nxh is very intelligent, but he is disordered. I can’t tell you how many times I tried to explain things to him. It was hard to understand because he is so intelligent. Dr. Simon’s book “In Sheep’s Clothing” describes xnh to a tee.

    I’ve come to realize that there never was any love on his part. That was the hardest thing to accept. That side of him was all fake. He is 75 now and still fooling people. I try to focus on my children and grandchildren and believe I did what I could for their sakes. I just simply did not realize there were people like this.

    1. Noel,
      Lucy, is having major problems with STBX. I thought you were 60 and the problem was your son, not your husband. Or are you a different Noel and not Noelgallagirl?

        1. Noel,
          We also have someone posting as Noelgallagirl, I asked her if I could call her Noel. I just wanted to clarify, so we have two Noels posting. Thanks for clarifying and welcome.

          I think we all were fooled at some point. It is good that you were able to take back your life and came to the realization of who he really was. It is not easy by any means to find out we spent our lives with a hoax, a jack in a box Jekyl and Hyde, never knowgin who was going to pop out at any given moment.

    2. Noel,
      Yes! We are in a similar situation. I’m 60 and have been married since I was 19 to him. I realized about eight years ago that my life has been spent wanting him to love me and trying to get him to love me – and trying to get him to understand.
      So much energy I put into it! It became a habit – a way of life for me.

      1. Joey,

        Yes, thank you for posting the link and I would encourage everyone to watch it . I watched it too and it was great and will watch it over again. Least I ever forget who we are dealing with. I have a tendency to want to think the best of individuals and forgive. One must never forget. The other important thing Dr. Simon said was “Trust your gut.”

        I can’t tell you how many times my gut was right and I trusted my heart and what I personally wanted to believe. I have paid dearly in the past for doing this.

  4. “All great changes are preceded by chaos “. I’ve read this somewhere, don’t know whose quote it is, but it’s a good reminder for me. CHAOS for sure divorcing a CDN!

  5. I am dealing with a very manipulative ex-husband, in the midst of a very messy custody battle over our two daughters. We divorced over 3 years ago and last October he decided to file papers. Everything in the papers completely manipulated and twisted events into something they were not to make me look like a horrible mother. I have always done the co-parenting thing – kept him updated on what was going on with our girls in school, sports, doctor appointments, extra curricular activities, etc. He pretended to be the supportive co-parent, all the while keeping a list of what he could twist to use against me. As an example, he knew I was in a very stressful job situation, where I had to go on anti-anxiety medication because of work and the judge I worked for several months ago. He put in the papers I was on anti-depressants so I wouldn’t kill or strangle our children. I have never said those words, let alone thought it and the girls had nothing to do with the medication. I have changed jobs in the last several months (after 3 years of torture) and am no longer on the anti-anxiety medication. He knew that medication was solely because of work, yet he twisted it into something it was not. Every allegation in the complaint was the same thing. Now since October 2015, our children have been put through the ringer because of his manipulation. He has told our 9 year old daughter if she does not choose to live with him he will kill himself. Our 13 year old wants nothing at all to do with him. There is a guardian ad litem appointed in our case and she has apparently been completely snowed by him. She recently recommended joint physical custody, alternating weeks, with them staying in my school district. Three weeks ago, she told me she knows without a doubt they want to stay with me. But then turns around and recommends a joint physical custody plan that offers no stability for the children.
    Our youngest daughter has severe anger issues and her behavior has gotten progressively worse and more violent since he filed this suit. She is not the same child she was a year ago. I put her in counseling in April and she was adamant he not know. I didn’t tell him the first few visits, but had to tell him because of insurance and copay costs. He physically grabbed her at a softball game and drug her to the end of the dugout and told her she didn’t have anger issues, and asked why was she in counseling. Proceeded to tell her I was trying to make her think she was crazy. She had his entire hand print around her arm, outlining every finger from palm to tip. This was through a t-shirt. She told me she thought her arm was broken and cried all the way home from the ball field. I did not see him grab her, I only saw him corner her in the dugout. In her counseling session a few days later, the counselor confronted him and he berated our daughter all the way home that afternoon, since it was one of his visitation days. He told her she was lying to protect me and she knows he would never do that to her. She was only protecting me and needed to stop lying. She cried that evening when she got home and told me she needed her daddy to believe her, that he did that to her, and he wouldn’t. I don’t know that I have ever seen her that heartbroken.

    I do not pretend to be a perfect parent. Our children aren’t perfect. They have maintained good grades since our divorce, I keep them active in activities through church, softball, Girl Scouts and he refuses to let them participate when it is “his time” with them. Even though our divorce order specifically states he cannot interfere with Girl Scouts or softball. He only allowed them to participate in softball this past spring because the custody case was ongoing and it made him look good. Never mind I have a text conversation saved where he told me I had to have his permission to sign them up and he did not give it, so they couldn’t play. Yeah…that’s not what it says. It says I cannot schedule events that purposely interfere with his time. I have no control over practice times and games. We luckily have a troop leader for Girl Scouts that schedules the majority of our events when I have them. He tells our youngest daughter that I love her sister more than I do her.

    I am emotionally and mentally (not to mention financially) spent from this fight. He is really sick and does not care what he is doing to his children. My mother calls him a malignant narcissist. He is very good at making you believe he is a great person. I am afraid he has put on such a show for the guardian ad litem, I may lose my children, regardless of what they want. I don’t do drugs, drink rarely, mostly on social occasions and maybe one or two then, and I haven’t dated in three years. My day centers around our children, their schedules and taking care of them. He will never make that sacrifice for them, never has in the past. He remarried less than six months after our divorce was final and his wife lost her two girls (approximately the same age as ours), a few months later because they cannot stand my ex-husband. They opted to live with their father. He is verbally, mentally and emotionally abusive. He tells his wife all the time he doesn’t like her children, they are disrespectful and rude. Our girls tell me they fight all the time about them. His responsibility for them falls on his mother when they are in his care during summer visitation weeks. She does everything for them, including cleaning their rooms. He will have to sacrifice early morning work hours to get them to school during his custody week with this stupid arrangement. Not to mention get them in the afternoon when school gets out. I do this every day all on my own.

    We were married for 12 years, together for 14. He is worse now than when we were married. I believe custody game is solely to hurt me and to keep from paying child support. He was so angry about the divorce. A small piece of info I didn’t put in – during our entire divorce, he had an addiction to online porn. It was always my fault he looked at it. For a long time I had no self-esteem or self-confidence. I feel the anger comes from my “found independence” and gumption to divorce him. He is bent on hurting me. Our entire divorce proceeding he claimed and tried to prove I was unfit and unable to care for our children alone. Luckily, the judge saw it differently. Unfortunately, he manipulated his way into a different court this time around, and we do not have the same judge. I don’t know how to fight a manipulator, let alone a narcissist. I am honest and straight forward. I don’t play games – it’s a waste of energy. I just want this over for myself and our children. Any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Michelle,

      “… she needed her daddy to believe her, that he did that to her, and he wouldn’t”. That is gaslighting. I think you just need to reaffirm to your daughter that what she believes happened, actually happened. And, only reason he claims otherwise is because that simply is easy way out for him. Yes, some people are so cheap.
      I think he really is a piece who is trying such brainwashing techniques on his daughter. It makes me angry thinking about that.

      In your post you come across as a far better person than he is. And, no wonder he lost the custody last time around.
      As far as I can see as long as he is around he will create nothing but trouble. So, I guess the ultimate solution is No Contact. However, you will need to sort out your children’s custody. It seems you are much well placed than he is… maybe prove some of his allegation as false and malicious and his whole case will fall apart. At that point do not stop, and just run over him like road-roller, toward your ultimate goal of “No Contact”. Try to get one time settlement out of him instead of monthly copay.

      If I am in your place, I will do following:
      – Carefully document all the relevant history with dates, times, everything. If you have a written document backing your assertions, that is even better. A court and judge will go by consistency of story, backed by solid evidence. I am sure his lies can be exposed easily enough. It will take even more energy from you, but it should save you legal cost and help you prepare. I think this should be last battle that you need to fight him off permanently this time. Prepare a chronological file, that should be better.
      – You are already doing great. And, you will do better if you shed your niceness especially for him, and stop giving him any benefit of doubt. He is scumbag, and he will always be scumbag. In case he can hurt you in his dying moment, he will do that, and die with a smirk on his face.
      – Continue reading blogs here, get the books (my personal preference is In Sheeps Clothing), and get help here from other posters. There are few more people who are also dealing with such nefarious characters as your husband.

    2. The best piece of advice I can give you in this situation is for you to look into Dr Craig Childress work. He has some great material regarding how children are used by narcissistic parents. He has some good material out that you can provide to the custody evaluator, and he will consult as well as he is trying to bring the establishment around to understanding the damage to a child when the child is used as a regulatory other by a character impaired or personality disordered individual. I have mentioned him before on this board.
      I hope that he and Dr Simon come together one day in their work.

  6. Michelle,

    “… she needed her daddy to believe her, that he did that to her, and he wouldn’t”. That is gaslighting. I think you just need to reaffirm to your daughter that what she believes happened, actually happened. And, only reason he claims otherwise is because that simply is easy way out for him. Yes, some people are so cheap.
    I think he really is a piece who is trying such brainwashing techniques on his daughter. It makes me angry thinking about that.

    In your post you come across as a far better person than he is. And, no wonder he lost the custody last time around.
    As far as I can see as long as he is around he will create nothing but trouble. So, I guess the ultimate solution is No Contact. However, you will need to sort out your children’s custody. It seems you are much well placed than he is… maybe prove some of his allegation as false and malicious and his whole case will fall apart. At that point do not stop, and just run over him like road-roller, toward your ultimate goal of “No Contact”. Try to get one time settlement out of him instead of monthly copay.

    If I am in your place, I will do following:
    – Carefully document all the relevant history with dates, times, everything. If you have a written document backing your assertions, that is even better. A court and judge will go by consistency of story, backed by solid evidence. I am sure his lies can be exposed easily enough. It will take even more energy from you, but it should save you legal cost and help you prepare. I think this should be last battle that you need to fight him off permanently this time. Prepare a chronological file, that should be better.
    – You are already doing great. And, you will do better if you shed your niceness especially for him, and stop giving him any benefit of doubt. He is scumbag, and he will always be scumbag. In case he can hurt you in his dying moment, he will do that, and die with a smirk on his face.
    – Continue reading blogs here, get the books (my personal preference is In Sheeps Clothing), and get help here from other posters. There are few more people who are also dealing with such nefarious characters as your husband.

    1. Thank you. I refuse to communicate with him verbally. He calls and I will not answer, I only text or email him. The guardian ad litem is requesting we send weekly updates on the girls by email, in an effort to get us to co-parent again. They are still with me and we have not gone to the week on/week off visitation. I am putting my anger aside and doing what I have to for them. We had to take an online parenting class, again, at the onset of this case, and I became very, very angry while I was going through it. I was doing all of the things they were teaching, prior to this case. Every single bit of it. He had a good thing – I swapped weekends when asked, he would get them an additional night during the week for dinner when he asked, I even made sure when I had them on holidays that he had them the weekend before, even though it fell on my visitation weekend, just to make sure he didn’t go long periods without seeing them. I never tried to keep the girls from him. Last Thanksgiving (2015), after this case was filed, my dad was in the hospital, not doing well at all and scheduled for his second open heart surgery the week of Thanksgiving. It was his year to have them on Thanksgiving and the weekend before happened to fall on his visitation. He refused to let me keep them so I could take them to see my father that Saturday. His visitation for the holiday wasn’t supposed to start until Tuesday evening. He stated that I would not let him take them to south Florida to see his grandfather who was down from New Hampshire for the weekend (a 10 hour trip one way), so he wasn’t going to let me have them that weekend, it was his visitation. Our children do not know his grandfather – they have seen him maybe 2 or 3 times in their lifetime. My father lives 2 hours away. I’m sorry….taking them out of school early to travel 10 hours in a car, to be in a city for about 36 hours, only to get in a car and travel 10 hours back, to go to school the next morning was a bit much. Our youngest daughter does not travel well, even at 10 years old. Too much energy. That trip would have been pure torture for them. It is petty selfish things like that. He can do what he wants to me, I will recover. But he’s too selfish to realize the damage he is causing in his relationship with his children.

      My oldest daughter started high school last week and my attorney was very concerned about her being in such an unstable environment while trying to adjust to high school. High school and just being a teenager is hard enough without other outside factors. I am hoping with the counselor working with the girls and getting through the anger, we can get past this and they will come out mentally and emotionally healthy. It is going to take work.

      We are filing a counterclaim and attempting to change visitation. I want the Sunday overnights ended because he doesn’t make them go to bed until 11 or 12 and then gets them up to bring them home at 5 a.m. They are horrible on Monday evenings after being in school all day. He is supposed to take them to school and NEVER HAS!!!! I am contemplating requesting supervised visitation for a while considering the abuse they have been through the past several months. I do have pictures of my daughter’s arm and the counselor did report him to DFACS in our area. They did nothing about it, but she did report it. When the counselor confronted him on the situation, he became very angry with her and refused to answer a lot of her questions. Since that initial visit, he has “flipped the switch” and become the caring, concerned, “your the professional, I’m just the dad” persona. Makes me want to vomit. I think it speaks volumes to her when our youngest doesn’t want him in the room and only asks for me and her sister. I am also very good friends with several law enforcement officers in my area and one of the deputies came by the evening on the incident and saw the marks on her arm. He has been very concerned about the girls. I did not do a report, because he will claim everything I do is a retaliation effort. But outside people are aware and have seen the evidence.

      Oh…did I mention before – he has a history of drug use prior to our marriage, and his step children have found large sums of money in a tool box in the backseat of his truck. He has a very expensive attorney, bought a brand new truck, and purchased a new accessory building for his backyard. He spent all of this money in a matter of 3 months and around Christmas. The retainer for his attorney alone is $4500 (so I have been told by different people) and we had to put a $1500 retainer in for the guardian ad litem, split of course, but she has long since gone through that money (works at $150 an hour). I work in the court system here, so I have been very fortunate to get help from attorneys I know, for a lot less and I am still in this case for about $4,200 to date. I know what he makes, they are paying child support for 4 children, a brand new mortgage that runs about $1200, plus utilities, car insurance and everything else. I believe he is dealing drugs. Our oldest daughter says there is a room in the basement that is locked and no one is allowed in – not even his wife, and it stinks in there. He has the only key. Something shady there.

      I pray a lot, but sometimes I feel I am fighting an army alone. I think he actually thought I was just going to hand the girls over to him for the week on/week off visitation. He obviously forgot who I am. I continue to fight with everything I have and try to keep things as normal as possible for the girls.

      1. Michelle,

        Agree. With a person like that text and email are best. Avoid verbal communication as much as possible.

        It seems you are still giving him too much. I am sure he does not want daughter for taking care of them, he just want to make you miserable.

        I do not know what guardian ad litem does. But, if you can tell that GAL that co-parenting is simply not possible with that kind of person. If she asks why, then tell drug story and more recent daughter hurting incident. I guess that really should be good enough to show him as unfit parent. Hand over a written dossier, if you believe GAL may just ignore your input under spell from him.

        I think you are doing well… just that there are too many things in your plate right now. And, many you have assumed yourself, like him ensuring kid are dropped to school on Monday. You need to fight hard and get him out of your life as much as possible.

  7. Michelle,

    Good tips from Andy, logging all events in chronological order, supported with documents if possible.
    Since you’ve had custody this long already, it’s very difficult to prove that living conditions of you and the children and so bad that they need to be uprooted from their home and go live with him. In my county, that is a very rare occurrence, and would have to show deteriorating living conditions on your part.
    You’ve got your girls in sports, activities, doing well in school. Hopefully attendance and tardiness are not issues, because that’s always an important aspect of change of custody cases.
    You’ve taking your girls to counseling. Shows care giving and maturity and loving on your part.
    You’ve got the counselor gathering the information of what’s going on with the girls.
    Your one daughter is now having emotional/behavioral issues because of the treatment she’s getting from dad. I’m sure the girl’s counselor is dealing with this issue and understands the root of it, which is dad.
    In my county, the judge often will interview the children in a custody case, in the courtroom, without the parents being present, only the judge and the lawyers. The lawyers are directed to not speak to the clients of what the children say, and the children are told this is a secret talk and their parents will not find out what they say.
    Your X makes me sick. What a disgusting slime bag. He has no conscience, no heart, no soul. I can’t believe the GAL has been tricked. Making a child go back and forth repeatedly during the week is no good for stability of kids, and most judges know this. I’d be surprised if he is granting any more visitation than he is already getting.
    You could have reported the X to the Department of Children and Family Services regarding the grabbing of the arm, physical abuse. Did you take a picture? Your poor daughter. He’s going to make her sick.
    If you “badmouth” your X too much to your daughter it might backfire on you in court. But of course the issues need to be addressed. Make sure your counselor gets all the info from you of what’s going on so that she/he can help your daughter throughout the sessions.
    Sounds to me as though as long as you’re going through court again, your attorney needs to file a counter-petition granting his LESS VISITATION, and preferably SUPERVISED VISITATION. This man is abusing your girls.
    I think with your testimony, the girls’ testimony, the counselor, your records, you will come out of this proceeding with your girls by your side, in your home, where they are safe.
    Keep fighting for these girls. I know you’re worn out. And attorney fees – killer. You don’t have a choice but to fight. Maybe you can even get the jerk to pay your attorney fees.
    Keep in touch. We’re going through it – divorcing CDNs, learning how to go No Contact, learning how to deal with these creeps. They are high maintenance and enjoy the upheaval. Never underestimate him. Never give him an inch. He is not to be trusted, ever. He’s no good. I’m sure that new wife won’t be around much longer.
    We are all fighting it here. And we are seeing to it we do what we can to help YOU prevail.

    1. Thank you for the encouragement and support. I am very disappointed in the GAL…she seemed to be pretty good at first. She made an unexpected visit to my house one evening a few weeks ago. I had been home for less than 10 minutes, having just arrived home from the grocery store, after having worked all day, and the kids were home all day, so the house was a disaster. Before she came to the door, I had just been fussing at them about the condition of the house. My oldest had been cleaning out her clothes, so there was stuff all over her floor. My youngest, well…her room is always a disaster. She hates to clean…it is a battle all the time. But we don’t live in filth. We don’t have bugs or rodents. It gets messy, but we clean it up. Some days are worse than others and I think any working mother can relate. My friends all say…”she doesn’t need to come to my house.” The GAL put in an email to the attorneys that she was concerned about the “disarray” in my house. She has a low level of clean and the mess in the girls’ rooms was concerning. Seriously? She had no idea what she was walking in to that evening. Not to mention, I was trying to get dinner started and the kitchen back in order….still had groceries out. So she judges me for that. The one room she didn’t go in was clean…my bedroom. The living room wasn’t a mess either. We actually LIVE in our house…it gets messy. We live in a small house, so things clutter. I go through about once a week to declutter and on Friday evenings, the house gets cleaned from top to bottom. I don’t pretend to live in one of those houses where everything is always in its place and it always looks immaculate. You know the ones…where you can’t tell people live there. It gets dusty, dishes get dirty (we have no dishwasher) and so do the floors. Hardwoods are hard to keep spotless with 2 dogs and 2 kids in the house. I was pretty offended by her judgment, considering I told her I just walked in the door after working all day. She even apologized several times for dropping by unannounced.

      They do not have attendance problems at school. I lost our home last year to foreclosure – couldn’t afford it on my own. (He knew I couldn’t and told my attorney I would lose it during our divorce). Of course, he used that against me – stated I left the children homeless. We lived in the in-law suite of a friend’s house for 2-1/2 months while buying another home. one where the mortgage was half and so was the size of the house I had to take care of. Due to a bankruptcy prior to our divorce, we did not reaffirm the mortgage on our home, and the mortgage company informed me the foreclosure would not be reported on our credit. That was when I made the hard decision to let the house go and I told him months before it happened. It was a hard struggle every month to feed them and maintain everything. Not once, EVER, did he offer to help me. When we moved in with a friend, he never talked to me about taking the girls until we could get settled, never voiced a concern over their well being. When he knew I was struggling with bills, he never offered to help. The gas was turned off once and we had to wait 7 days to have it turned back on (no hot water), he only used it against me instead of offering to help. If he was so concerned about the girls and their well being, why didn’t he offer to help us? We showered at a friend’s house in the evenings. But during the months we lived with a friend, the girls never missed school and were never late. I had them there every day on time. I do not tolerate laziness in school. They attempt the random “I don’t feel good, or I threw up”, but they know my rule – unless they have a fever or someone witnessed them vomit, they stay unless the school nurse deems it necessary for them to go home. And I can always tell if they are truly sick – most good parents can.

      I have talked to my youngest about her room at her dad’s house. She said the only reason it is clean is because her grandmother cleans it all the time. She said otherwise, it would look just like her room at home. Which I find interesting…again – someone else taking responsibility for the girls other than their father. That was his whole argument during our divorce…my mom will move here to help me take care of them. He’s too hell bent on proving me a bad mother that he doesn’t realize he isn’t taking care of them, someone else is doing it for him. Which is what will happen if he gets custody. He will not take the responsibility on his own….he will put the job on someone else, be it his mother or his wife. A job I do daily, without complaint and without help. Because I want to do it, not because I am obligated. I center my daily schedule around them, because they are my focus and my reason for getting up in the mornings. I honestly wonder what I will do sometimes when they are grown and on their own. But at the same time, I look forward to it. Not because I want them grown, but because I want to see what they can accomplish on their own. They have this clean slate before them to do something great for themselves. But as a parent, I made a conscious decision to take this little person (or little people) and try to mold them into functioning, independent, self-sustaining, non-drain on society adults. I may not be the best at it, but I’m trying to teach them right from wrong, respect for others and all the things parents are supposed to be responsible for teaching their kids. I don’t try to be their friend. He undermines everything I do – from badmouthing me and what I teach them to my choice of religion. Our oldest daughter took confirmation classes last year at our church. I told her there was no pressure for her to join or be saved, it was completely her decision, but I wanted her to at least make an informed decision. She chose to be saved, baptized and joined the church. Of course, I invited him to attend the special day at our church. I was raised in and attend a Methodist church. He was raised in a conventional Baptist church. He told our daughter she wasn’t baptized because she was sprinkled and not immersed. And that our preacher doesn’t tell the stories right, we sing too much (this was a traditional service with hymns, not a praise band) and our preacher didn’t preach from the Bible. (I wasn’t aware he had a theology degree). Instead of taking pride in her decision, all he could do was belittle and find things wrong with it. His attendance in a church was short lived…lasted about 5 months. During that time, conveniently after our oldest was saved, he pushed our youngest daughter to do the same in his church. I did not agree with her decision – she took no classes as to what the commitment meant. I didn’t feel her decision was an educated one and she had no idea what she was doing. He made it out to be a fun thing and she got to swim in the “pool” at church. My pastor was afraid if I didn’t let her do it, it would turn her against the church. Against my better judgment, I allowed it. (I have final say in their religious training as the primary custodian). Shortly after, he stopped going to church.

      It’s exhausting. I just want us to get back to a normal life without feeling all of that pressure to explain every decision I make, or that it will be used against me in some way.

  8. My husband and I have been married for 25 years. Our marriage was difficult from the word go and has remained that way until now. Soon after our marriage, my husband went off sex and rarely came near me. He always said that I appeared tired and was very busy at work. I mean I had a busy career but I never indicated to him that I did not want intimacy. A short while later, I discovered by chance that my husband was into porn. He was addicted. I confronted him and he initially denied it but when I produced the evidence, he was forced to admit. I suggested counseling but he said he did not need it and that he would try to stop watching.

    A few months later, I caught him watching those porn sites again and it was on a very frequent basis. I confronted him again and this time he said that everyone watches it so its no big deal. He refused counseling. He continued watching porn and later he started deleting the history icon, so I would not know what he had watched.

    My husband has not worked since one year after our marriage. He stays home and does the household chores and raises our kid. He did look for jobs but found it difficult to get a decent job.

    About a few years ago, I resigned to my fate of loneliness in the marriage. He did not even hold my hand. There was no friendship or companionship. I prayed and I felt that I would stay on in the marriage for my child’s sake. I did not want her to suffer emotionally if we were to divorce or separate.

    a while ago, I discovered that my husband had been having an affair with a young married girl. He refused to admit at first but was forced to when he realised that I already knew. But he lied about many aspects of the relationship and I only found out about this after I read his text messages. He gave vague answers when I asked him to forger the girl and give up the relationship. From the text messages, he is continuing to see the girl and is in contact with her. She sends him pictures of herself and her kid.

    I am so heartbroken and am not sure what to do next. I have asked him if there is any way we can repair our marriage and he said that we would have to try very hard. But the way he said it I could tell that he did not love me at all and even if there was any attempt, it would not be genuine at all. He also said that he avoided intimacy because he found me unattractive and unappealing and so many other reasons where he just berated and degraded me as a woman. I cannot understand how he married me if he had never been attracted to me as a person.

    Could it have been for the money? I do earn a fair bit and have good savings. I have supported him throughout our marriage and have taken care of all the family expenses. He does not want a divorce as he said it would be a waste as we have been married so long and for the sake of our child.

    But there is no marriage here. It was a sham from the begining. Now God has given me a way to escape because of his adultery. I am confused if I should divorce. I do love him I suppose and it will not be easy to let go, as I have been with him for 25 years. He has since asked me for a fair bit of money to start a business. He said he needs to start earning money. I don’t think I will be able to trust him again.

    1. Sarah,

      He brought you nothing but pain. And, seems like he will continue to do so.

      No matter what you do, just ensure that he does not get his hands on the saving. Keep your savings safe from him in case he does decide to bolt one fine day. Do not give any excuse that you are close to retirement and investing savings in a business is risky at this point. Simply tell him that you don’t trust him with the savings and it is risky so late in your career to lose all that in case he decides for divorce. Drag him to counseling if he fancies the idea of rebuilding trust. And, stay away from counselor who excuse his porn and all that behaviour to “deep seated intimacy issues”.

      Spend time reading other blogs here, I am very sure you will learn more than you like.

      1. Sarah – I agree completely with Andy, do not let him near your savings. If he has refused to stop seeing her and she has a young child, the business venture could be a way for him to take control of his own finances so he can leave you. He doesn’t want the divorce because you are his meal ticket. I understand you have invested a lot of time in the marriage, but you are living an unhappy life. We found out in the fall of 2012 our youngest daughter was being molested by a 10 year old boy, a family friend’s grandson. I caught my then husband looking at porn about 2 weeks after we found out. Something snapped in me and I could no longer live that “fake” life. Our 6 year old daughter had been touched inappropriately by another child, who was being also molested (won’t go into the details), and he could only please himself by looking at other women – in my eyes – someone else’s daughter. I was completely disgusted and repulsed by him. I struggled for years with the marriage we had – keeping it together for our children. But I couldn’t do it anymore. I had to take care of myself. Since our marriage in 2000, I had gained close to 100 pounds and struggled with my weight. I had low self-esteem and allowed him to belittle me and call me fat, therefore only adding to depression and struggle with my weight. I never felt good enough for him. After our divorce I lost 65 pounds and have recently started working again towards my goal weight. The stress of this custody suit has added some weight, and recently decided that I refuse to become that person again. I have to take care of myself for me and my children. Since my divorce, I was angry with myself for sticking in a loveless marriage for the sake of our children. It does not teach them how relationships should be and only gives a false sense of security. I have many friends whose parents divorced after they left home for college, only to be blind-sided by their parent’s divorce because they were only together because of the children. They had a very hard time dealing with the guilt and a lot of anger towards the parent that left – usually the father. I have a really good friend currently in a marriage for the same reason. He stays for the sake of his son and plans on divorcing as soon as he graduates from high school in 11 years. That is a long time to stay with someone you do not love. We only get one life.

        I would hate to see you invest your money in a business for him, to see him succeed, only to up and leave you for this other woman because he now has a stable income so he can support her. It happens all the time. Be very careful.

      2. Sarah,

        You should withdraw all the money in the savings account, before he does, and put it in an account in your name only. That’s the only way to keep it safe. He may be anticipating you leaving him soon.

    2. Sarah,

      First off, since you’ve been the wage earner of the family all these years, the husband needs to secure a job SO THAT YOU MAY THEN LEAVE HIM. Otherwise, you’ll end up paying him alimony (maintenance), temporarily or permanent, depending on the law of your state. I assume there is not enough wage to carry on two separate households, as is in most cases, so this predicament makes it difficult to leave him, if you choose to do so.

      Be ready, you’ll most probably lose half your pension, half the savings, half everything. The courts in my state don’t look at the bad act (the affair) in allocating money.

      I wouldn’t give him money to start his own business. He has no business history it sounds like. He needs a job with benefits.

      Sorry if it all sounds cold and cruel, but it is the reality of divorce after this many years when the other spouse does not work.

      Sounds to me as if he wanted a sugar momma from the beginning, since he worked only one year. He sounds lazy.

      Do all you can in your power to insist he now start working. You may not even want to tell him you’ll divorce him. He may decline work just so he can sponge off your hard labors for a few more years. Seriously, I would PRETEND it’s your intention to stay married till he secures a job.

      I had to PRETEND it was my intention to stay married after finding out of my STBX (soon to may ex) misdeeds (to put it lightly), with the urging of my psychologist, because of the possibility of suicide, on his part. And similar to your situation, the jerk wasn’t working, had just lost his law license and was unemployed. How was I to leave when he wasn’t working? Luckily, he got a job from a friend of his and is fully employed. Three weeks later I left – for good – never to turn back.

      You do need to set yourself up so that it is a possibility to leave, take care of business.

      I’m sorry you’ve been done wrong for such a long time. Most of us here have similar hurtful circumstances.

      I can tell you I cried every day several times a day for three months. I was horrified and hurt. Then one day those tears just stopped. I was done. Then came the anger. I’ve been trying to get divorced for going on two years. You most probably will find out more of what he’s done as time goes on. Start snooping around the house, looking for documents, anything you can get your hands on. See if he has accounts you don’t know of. The information I gleaned what the husband was doing in my case went years back and the extent of what he did is something you’d read out of a book, so unbelievable, but it happened, in my life, without me knowing.

      YOu will find a better mate. My husband was a cold fish. A cold fish to me who liked prostitutes. Sick – I know. But now, the BF, gives me all the affection I need, and then some — finally.

      Sarah, you are at the beginning of a long haul. Stay in touch. We will help you get through it. We understand. Friends give bad advice — just saying.
      Keep posting and we’ll keep responding.
      Life does go on. Hard to believe now, but it does.

    3. Soon after our marriage, my husband went off sex and rarely came near me. He always said that I appeared tired and was very busy at work.

      Sarah – it will always be your fault, about you or it will be put back on you. YOU do everything you see. They are totally without blame for anything. What I suggest you do is try to come to the understanding and acceptance that he doesn’t love you. He never did and he will never change. This is almost a set in stone characteristic of the CD. They are totally blameless and highly venomous.

      There are several precautions you need to take – firstly and most important don’t let on you know about him or his condition. There is little point to this and you will be going from the frying pan into the fire. Just ask anybody on this forum. Make sure your communications, email alerts about comments on this forum etc can’t be accessed by him. The minute they know they have been exposed you can expect the Antichrist to move in and I’m not kidding. He will up the ante substantially. It’s important to familiarise yourself with the term gaslight. Get fully across this topic and know to recognise the strategies – they will differ depending on what the CD wants. Forewarned is forearmed. They are totally ruthless.

      If you are sure your money is safe and you have a good record of adultery and can prove it for the courts then get out and file for divorce and don’t look back. Find a good non corrupt attorney who is familiar with adultery and CDs <<< VERY IMPORTANT.

      There are several things you should come to terms with. Firstly your child is already being damaged by this man. Not necessarily physically but most certainly emotionally. You will NEVER have and I mean NEVER have love in your marriage. You can't save your marriage – there is nothing to save other than heartache and pain. You are a possession to him and he will put up one hell of a fight to hang on to his meal ticket – you. If he gets onto you at any stage of the game he will almost certainly start gaslighting. Be on high alert and document everything. Only talk to people you know and trust 150% and who will support you. If things get messy he will do everything in his power and he will resort to anything in order to bring you down and make out you are the CD not him. He will play the victim card.

      Keep coming to this forum, keep the support happening you have plenty here. Most of the people here are survivors of CDs – they have experienced the pain and the horror these monsters can inflict. You need to make the utlimate decision about how you want to spend the rest of your the life and the million dollar question for you right now is – is this man worthy of my life energy? Also please understand that the man you fell in love with is a construct only. He is not real, he is a mask, an illusion he only feigns his good qualities. The real man is the one behind the mask – the antichrist. In fact CDs make the antichrist look like Smokey B Bear. They are really that bad. Good luck and please be kind to yourself. Believe in yourself and know you are better than him and deserve better than him.

        1. TY BTOV – I couldn’t not be here I have to stick around, I’m no stranger to CDs you could say I’m a seasoned veteran. I’ve had every variety of CD – in a nutshell will touch on it below. This goes back 23 years ago with my CD half brother. My experiences do not include professional ones with CD bosses and co-workers. I’ll make this as succinct as possible but it will probably take at least 2 – 3 posts.

          1994 – Moved in with my brother – fell in love with his best friend. Brother sociopath (didn’t know this at the time) did everything in his power to split us up malignant to the core – the man I was in love with ended up committing suicide. This dam near killed me too. Took me many years to get over it and is when I started to self hack – started when I was about 36 I’m 55 now. I’ve learned a lot about myself and about human nature and the psyche.

          2004 – Psychopath entered my life charming at first (this only lasted 6 weeks) I knew there was something terribly wrong with him I could feel it but did not understand it – had to find out what made him tick. Started to study psychology – found an article written by Ted Bundy’s college girlfriend the one he was murdering over and over. Well the similarities were striking and sent chills up my spine. Started studying psychopathy in depth. Hare, Cleckly and who ever else I could get my hands on to understand these monsters among us.

          2009 – Daughter does some self development course over a 4 day workshop – don’t know what the hell this course was but to me and rest of the family looks like a course in How to Become a CD Overnight. Turned totally NPD and got worse as time progressed (I intend to address her using this forum – very interesting and one as a serious case study for sure) no it wasn’t Landmark – I’ve seen people come out of that with more issues than what they had before they did it and it gets worse.

          2010 – Got romantically involved with a very good friend of mine I’d known for 5 years – after a couple of months discovered he was full blown NPD. Foolishly armed with knowledge but not enough I thought I could help him. NOPE. Got out of the relationship after 3 years, kept him at a distance for another 3 years. I now have him back as a friend but only a friend. He is okay as one but not as a lover as all I became was a possession. He knows if he f**(s up again he loses me as a friend forever.

          2014 – Bought a house with my best friend of 40 years after a couple of months noticed she had serious anger management, hostility issues and highly distrusting and paranoid – complete control freak (suspect BD); sister another BD gets into trouble in Thailand gave her a roof over her head and she turns into a hell hound. Daughter continues to show disturbing personality abnormalities and getting worse.

          1. 2015 – Friend totally wigs out has complete rage explosion over absolutely nothing of significance and that was enough for me decided to get out of this situation. Had a deal in place with her husband for an exit strategy – they owed me money. At that time I was caring for my mother who was in chronic heart failure left a $100K a year job to do it. Gaslighting started to happen (friend) – she was pathologically jealous of new friendships I was forming, she steals my phone and my passport amongst other things and tries to set me up to look bad in many various and conniving ways. There is much more to it but that’s the general gist of it. Daughter was after friend’s son, daughter, sister and friend or rather fiend decided to go against me and told my mother I didn’t want her anymore. Mum was very sick at that time. Mum told me this later shortly before she died which was early this year. I got half of my money back then moved out as I could no longer continue in that unbearable situation. I am going through legal channels to get the rest of my money back. I want nothing further to do with any of them. My son won’t either he is as shocked as I am about them he still hasn’t recovered. He’s loving, deeply caring, empathetic and respectful of others and would never harm anyone – my son and daughter are diametrically opposite my daughter ripped everybody off including me and my son of the rest of Mum’s money not that she had much and my instruction to my daughter was to give my share to my son. My son was recovering from neurosurgery (brain tumour) and had 5 rounds of neurosurgery in less than 6 months through complications. She didn’t give one damn about this and pocketed the whole lot knowing full well he was struggling. We have disowned her. Son’s tumour was benign albeit not fully removed but he has made a full recovery thank God.

            2016 Met an amazing man, he was everything I thought I would ever want in a man. We had two wonderful months. He had just moved to where I was living and leasing a property from the property owner, a woman (CD) who also lives on the property shortly after cracks started to form. She started interjecting herself into our lives without invitation and he’d do nothing about this. Then things started going pear shaped. Honestly in retrospect red flags started to form but I was so in love I got caught. He had an accident that nearly killed him left him with fontal lobe damage “DING”. Didn’t notice much initially other than he was reckless and drove fast “DING”, his olfactory senses didn’t work and he no sense of smell “DING”. Discovered after the break up he has no empathy either – should have come as no surprise really but it did. That’s when I realised I was projecting my virtues onto him – he has none it seems. See red flags everywhere but love is blind alright. Without going into details in this post, we’ve split up. She’s exposed herself as being a fully fledged psychopath and I believe she is gaslighting him. If I thought my friend, sister and daughter were bad she’s them all rolled into one except 100 times worse – more information is coming out now as this is a small town – this particular death star shit Gollum is known as “the psycho” She will eventually be run out of town she’s screwed over too many people in a relatively short time and she’s now after me despite Tom and I splitting up, she still sees me as a threat and is out to destroy me – good luck with that I’m onto her and so are others. If she makes one more wrong move she’ll checkmate herself. She is a typical garden variety psychopath – bringing themselves down due to their own evil malfeasance and blaming their victims all the while.

            I’m in recovery right now heartbroken, beaten, bruised, a few broken bones, a lot of grey hair a lot older but a hell of a lot wiser. I seem to be a magnet for shit Gollums, that’s my fond term for these locusts and I have sworn until my last dying breath that I will fight to the death to keep these monsters out of our society and away from our loved ones. This is my new mission in life, I think it’s a fairly decent cause –smile-

          2. Eudox,
            First of all, welcome and thank you for sharing.I hope you don’t mind my shortening your name. Welcome to Dr. Simons blog and thank you for sharing. If you read through this blog you will find unbelievable stories, yet, they are all true, most of them. I should explain we have had a few trolls.

            This world is going crazy and everyone is being affected and infected by it. The regular posters I know are the ones willing to change and do the work needed to make this a better world. I personally believe it is about putting ourselves in Gods hands.

            There so many good people on this site willing to embrace and share their stories to make this a better world, if only as Dr. Simon says “One at a time.” I hope you keep posting and share your experiences and knowledge and you will get to know some awesome poster here. We may not always agree but in the end we respect each other.


  9. Thank you all for the encouragement and practical advise. I feel a lot better after reading the comments and that i am not alone in this.

    God Bless You all.


  10. I am new to this blog and iI have been so enriched by the articles and the comments posted. Good to know I am not the only one going through this. My husband has been emotionally abusive for many years. He does a lot of the little stuff for me like drive me to work on and off, cook me meals and makes sure I take my meds and he also takes care of the needs of my children.

    But like a reader’s experience here, my husband has shut off emotionally from me and will not come near me. I have seen him up at night on his computer or with his mobile so I suspect that he is communicating with his girlfriend or looking at porn.

    I did not realise what he was doing amounted to emotional abuse. I was convinced that I did not have grounds for divorce and that God would be grieved and angry with me if I left my husband. And I stayed for the children’s sake.

    But now he has found himself a girl much younger than him and who earns a pittance. My husband is unemployed. I found out that he has used money from my account to pay for some of his girlfriend’s expenses. This may have been going on for quite a while as our monthly expenditure seems very high.

    When I confronted him, he refused to let go off this girl. He wants the best of both worlds, the financial benefits of our marriage and our children and sex from this girl. I am torn and do not know what to do. It hurts so bad to see him still in contact with this girl. He said that life is very hard on him too, as he did not go out looking for a relationship and that it just happened. But he refuses to give up the girl and work on our marriage.

    I have been praying so hard and asking God for directions. I just do not think that God would ask me to stay on in this marriage where my husband has hurt me and rejected me again and again and again. I am in my mid fifties and regret staying this long with him as I may have jeopardised future relationships. I have never told any one, except my pastor on what my husband has done. I am too ashamed but my husband takes advantage of doing his deeds in secrecy. Should I start telling friends and family? Would this be wise.


    1. Joy,

      First thing first. Put your foot down, and ask your husband to terminate one of the relationship. He can choose which one he wants to continue.

      He certainly wants financial benefits of staying with you, he certainly wants sex from that girl. I will be doubtful if he wants your children. I will also be careful transferring assets to him, he certainly wants best of both world, but if you force him to choose, he may give up children & your monthly earning capacity & nice comfortable home, and instead choose your retirement savings & that girl.

      I don’t think God will be grieved and angry with you. I am sure God, if He exists, is already grieved and angry with your husband, and will not mind coercing him to choose faithfulness to one (you or that girl) via you. That is my personal opinion.
      One thing you must do is not feel ashamed. Your husband is the one who should feel guilty and ashamed. Do not beat yourself up for your husbands defects.

      In my opinion, you should spend some time on this blog, read book In Sheep’s Clothing, to get more insight into character deficiencies of your husband. This will help you in making better judgement. You may also seek counseling if you believe that your husband is redeemable. Be careful in choosing a counselor, it seems you are susceptible to unwarranted shame and guilt.

      You can certainly share with trusted friends and family. I am very sure you will not make it a slandering fest, and you will be sharing your pain and getting suggestions from others. You did share here, and hopefully you find your sharing useful to yourself.

      Finally. Protect yourself financially. If your husband chooses to leave you, he will first try to siphon off all your retirement savings. Start setting boundaries. Put your foot down, and ask your husband to terminate one of the relationship.

  11. Joy,

    I am really sorry to hear about your situation. First of all you don’t say for sure if they are both your children and if they are underage, nor do you say how long you have been married or how long he hasn’t worked. All these things make a big difference and the state you live in may have different divorce laws. I would remove the monies from the retirement accounts and put them strictly under your name entirely to protect what is left.

    I would also take his name off anything jointly such as closing any accounts and reopening them in your name since he hasn’t used them in good faith or the benefit of the family. The checks are also made out to you so he has no say so in whose name you decide the checks should be deposited into.

    I know this may seem drastic, but what he is doing is drastic and he could wipe you out overnight and say bye, bye. When anyone is a liar, cheater and extremely pleasure seeking of his own needs before the needs of ones family anything is possible and you need to protect yourself and children in any way possible.

    By you knowing about all this and him wanting the best of both worlds shows you who he really is and I don’t foresee him changing. God gives us every right to leave an unfaithful husband and what type of example is he setting for the children and such utter disrespect and contempt for you at the same time expecting you to support him.

    I am sure he is capable of working in some capacity but chooses not to. I wouldn’t say to much at this point to him but I would secure your assets and start setting some aside for harder days ahead.

    Seek out a good therapist, or even your minister, but watch out for the ones who promote putting blame on you and trying to see his side of the story and working it out. In my book there is no excuse for infidelity, once a cheat always a cheat. I don’t say this flippantly as God is my source of direction.

    I say this from experience, I was married twice and this was my first husband. When he tires of this gal or she is gullible enough to take care of him he will enjoy the easy ride for a long time. Not to mention the STD’s you could catch from him. At this late stage in the game this is who he is.

    Another warning, since he has no income does he have to lose in draining all your assets and walking away. I found out when going to court, once the assets disappear it is difficult to recoup them and attorneys fees can wipe out your life savings. It’s very easy for contested divorces to reach 6 figures very quickly.

    From my experience and I have had many with other individuals and there are individuals on this site who have been taken to the cleaners by these types and as you read are in this process right now. Get your ducks in a row before confronting him, and that is even if you want the cheater. He may give this gal up just to go get another one or go back to her after he has lulled you into a position of security and go back to his dirty deeds and then make sure he finishes the job.

    Andy suggested reading Dr. Simons books especially in Sheep’s Clothing and to read the other topics in the blog which is wise advice. However, I highly caution you not to share your insight with him. There are some very good posters on this site who have lived your experience and hopefully, they will chime in. Please wait this time to think and weigh in your options.

    You also stated he is emotionally abusive, I wouldn’t doubt as you read the blogs and books you will realize he is more than just emotionally abusive.

    As I suggested open a new checking account solely in your name, open a UPS box not postal where all your mail goes too. Go to a different bank than the one you currently use and open a checking account and then have all your payroll checks routed to the new checking account. Start forwarding all your bills over to the new box. Get a copy of your credit report, take your name off all joint credit cards and put in your name only. If you need more help we can help direct you. Many of us have been though this.

    This man has proven he isn’t to be trusted, he can take you to the cleaners. Hopefully, you have heads up on this. Since your the bread earner, let him get a job for his pin money.

    One of the posters on here named Lucy and I would look for her posts can tell you horror stories and so can others. As for me I am sitting with way over 6 figures of debt not to mention what I have already paid. These individuals have no remorse or unconscious. Not to mention the affect on your health and well-being.

    I hope you heed this warning and keep posting. God bless and be strong.

  12. I’m new to the blog and I read Dr. Simon’s book several weeks ago after having an epiphany from a comment that my husband had made. I then suddenly did a search on manipulation and came across In Sheeps Clothing and wow everything was spot on! It has opened my eyes to so much, not only to the manipulation he’s done for the last 14 years I’ve been married to him but also the reason why I’ve felt so full of anxiety, depression and so much more.. I’m a changed person after all these years, I used to be full of life but now I feel like I’ve been hit with by a truck!

    1. kimT,
      Stick around. There are weekly articles from Dr. Simon. There are also comments from other readers that you may find useful. Stick around and grow stronger… you just may find that truck falls apart well before reaching anywhere near you.

  13. I’d like advice on how NOT to engage in an argument or confrontation with someone regarding past behavior. If benign confrontation is best in the moment then I would never want to be pushed into bringing up the past.

    asked : “what’s wrong”
    I respond with “we’ve/I’ve been hurt”

    Here is where I get hung up. I don’t want to recite a list of past hurts only to have this person turn it back on me, deflect, deny etc. but I do want to give a short concise and thought out answer to “how”.

    I’d like to say to this person “your actions have hurt us/me, it’s in the past now and I don’t want to rehash it again.” Most people wouldn’t let it go, they’d want examples. This person knows exactly what she’s done but would never admit to it, EVER. I simply want to be prepared.

    Does anyone have a suggestion? Thank-you.

    1. Sydney,

      What if you get an example from past and state, “X said nasty things about Y”.
      And, the reply you get is, “No. It was Y who said nasty things about X”.
      After that there is no point in continuing as you will be banging your head against a wall.

      Some people won’t simply admit truth. They will rewrite history and play with your memory, aka gas-lighting.

      Raising the past is useless if other person is not interested in history that shows him in bad light.

      Raising the past is still useful to decide whether to terminate a relationship. It will help you decide if there is any scope in continuing relationship or you should simply cut-off permanently. So, try few times. If you don’t succeed in making any reasonable conversation, cut off the other person permanently.

    2. And, confrontation is best when it is done in present.

      But, in your case, you may want to try to give few examples from past. You know that person won’t admit. You can watch that person lying and denying, and then figure out a way to minimize your interactions with him/her.

      Sometime it is good to really push hard and check the depth of problem. I did that with my wife. After she stated another blatant lie and tried to blame me, I simply cut her off, no phone, no text… just divorce notice from court after a cool off period. I have no idea what story she is going to come up in first court date, but one thing for sure it will be a bunch of make-believe stories projecting herself as victim.

      1. Thanks again Andy D,
        It’s doubtful the person I’m referring to will ever ask me what’s wrong but I want to be able to confront in the moment whomever I feel is being manipulative or hurtful. I’ve learned a lot from these topics.

        In my experience the manipulators and especially covert manipulators who are aggressors can do a tremendous amount of damage at times whereby a confrontation would be out of the question just because of the circumstances.
        One instance would have been my husband confronting the bride/DIL on her wedding day and the other instance separate of each other would have been a SIL on the occasion of her daughter’s wedding .
        Both families would have shown their allegiance to both people no matter how it was presented because of how quickly they can turn the truth around. It would have been considered inexcusable to confront either one. Both experiences were done covertly.
        Eventually we did confront the SIL by letter and it’s now been over 7 years since we’ve seen or talked to her, we cut her off and my brother made excuses for her behavior and so I’ve accepted his decision to let me go.
        The bride however is someone I’ve limited interaction with but her past behavior proves to me she is of the most covert and damaging type. I want to be ready for her (insert image of me rubbing my hands together). I appreciate anyone’s input so much.

        1. Sydney,

          “One instance would have been my husband confronting the bride/DIL on her wedding day”
          Even on such occasion, stating something just flatly without accusing should be fine, something like “That was wrong thing to say. You should not have said…”

          “The bride however is someone I’ve limited interaction with but her past behavior proves to me she is of the most covert and damaging type. I want to be ready for her (insert image of me rubbing my hands together).”
          You do want to be ready for her, especially as defensive gesture. You do not want to be hurt by her. But, you should not make it a mission to go about correcting her.
          In my opinion, if something does not affect me, I won’t be concerned about it. If I see something affecting someone else, I may suggest something to aggressor and I may help victim, I won’t make it my mission to support victim especially if victim is not ready for help.

          1. Andy D I wouldn’t perch like a vulture and correct her because we barely connect. Outwardly I’m not very approachable to her.

            As for my husband saying something to her on her wedding day. This persons damage is done by covert action. You’d have to see it to believe it. The exclusion and disregard is palatable only to the ones who are watchful and because most people don’t see her behavior towards us we are left hanging with our mouths open. Our manipulator is very good at managing her image. We’ve never gotten in her way so to speak we are simply family she can’t be bothered with because we don’t kiss her ass and offer up gifts and false praise.
            We purposely let it slip that I was getting an inheritance and was considering buying something very modest to vacation at and wow within no time she was complimenting me on an outfit and even reached out physically to pat my arm. Unheard of behavior from her in the past. We never did buy anything and never in a million years would I have shared one dime towards her enjoyment. No more compliments for me. Our daughter on the other hand has never been a victim but sees the SDIL for what she is and we are grateful for that.

          2. Sydney,

            I think you are well set in your approach to dealing with her.

            I don’t need to see to believe her covert actions. You got that pointed barb because she knows that you know, and she knows you will understand her comment and others will at best giggle. Best policy is to ignore such comments, responding to them in normal way (left hanging with mouth open) is exactly what made her happy, something more drastic (calling her out right there, or walking out of her marriage right there) would have been unexpected for her.

            It is good to know you are aware, and you are not alone as your daughter sees her too for what she is. So, you won’t be alone. As long as your husband does not become your SDIL’s flying monkey, you will be doing well in your immediate family. If your SDIL cannot get past your boundaries, sooner or later she will stop clawing and go back to her lair.

            There was no point in letting the inheritance news slip out to her. There is no point in playing her game, she is crafty master, you are at best a veteran with some experience. But, if you do like to follow this path, then someday slip the news that inheritance is contested, so you are wondering if you should just let it go instead of taking on headache and lawyers fee. Keep in mind anything she knows about you will be twisted and fed into her gossip network. You do not win if she salivate on your fortune, she could be fuming inside, and you just rank higher on her enemy list. Best is if you are in limited contact where your boundaries are strictly enforced.

  14. Andy D I finally feel my husband and I are exhibiting solidarity. We let the topic of inheritance slip because on one level it was a test to see her reaction and on another level it’s my money to do as I please so if we make some changes to our lives I don’t want the SS and SDIL to think my husband is cheap. By nature I enjoy sharing but it’s understood that because of her greediness we will not flaunt but we won’t hide anything either.

    1. Sydney,

      AndyD gave you good advise. The best way to deal with DIL/SS is to have as little to do with them as possible. No matter you will always be on her enemy list and will work her twisted thinking on your SS very subtly just like the snake in the Garden of Eden. Your SS will always take the CD side and believe her regardless, until he sees the light or perhaps never.

      As far as the inheritance, big mistake the CD looks at it as her future inheritance. I would go to an attorney and get a will made out or see about a trust. Also, have your POA’s decided, make sure all of your documents exclude them from anything. Your attorney should know what to do. Don’t tell them anything and don’t give them keys to anything.

      Your knowledge is power but not to share with them. I had to do this in order to protect my assets from my kids and their money grubbing spouses. I am sorry to say you will find out your own children’s character too. Money seems to bring out the worst in individuals.

      Remember the CD never forget a slight and will always be ready to get even. AndyD is right the CD are very crafty masters at this game. How you beat them is by not playing. When one thinks they have to have the last word they will lose every time. No words, no contact is how you win.

      You can’t stop what the CD say or do, I would go about my life and forget about her, be courteous and nothing more. As for gift giving I stopped that long ago, give them a Bible, or tickets to the museum, donate to a charity on their behalf if you must give something.

      I would rather be alone than playing the CD’s sick games. There may come a time when your SS eyes may open and you can be there for him, unfortunately, children come along and thats the sad part.

      I hope you keep posting and we can help you make sense out of the senseless. I would encourage you as AndyD suggested to buy the book In Sheep’s Clothing by: Dr. Simon. Under no circumstances give it to anyone that has anything to do with the CDDIL. Keep the knowledge gain to yourself and protect your family. I can guarantee you the CD learn fast and you don’t want to give them any advantage.

      My DIL is the breath of lies and so good at twisting things to her advantage. She has my son snowballed but my son wants to believe her lies. She uses Christianity like a sweet angel playing the harp and inside is seething with jealousy. Once in awhile you get that look that lasts but a second, at the same time you feel and know in your gut something is wrong, trust your gut instinct.
      Don’t let your heart, thinking or emotions be your decision maker, let it be your gut instincts.

    2. Sydney,

      AndyD gave you good advise. The best way to deal with DIL/SS is to have as little to do with them as possible. No matter you will always be on her enemy list and will work her twisted thinking on your SS very subtly just like the snake in the Garden of Eden. Your SS will always take the CD side and believe her regardless, until he sees the light or perhaps never.

      As far as the inheritance, big mistake the CD looks at it as her future inheritance. I would go to an attorney and get a will made out or see about a trust. Also, have your POA’s decided, make sure all of your documents exclude them from anything. Your attorney should know what to do. Don’t tell them anything and don’t give them keys to anything.

      Your knowledge is power but not to share with them. I had to do this in order to protect my assets from my kids and their money grubbing spouses. I am sorry to say you will find out your own children’s character too. Money seems to bring out the worst in individuals.

      Remember the CD never forget a slight and will always be ready to get even. AndyD is right the CD are very crafty masters at this game. How you beat them is by not playing. When one thinks they have to have the last word they will lose every time. No words, no contact is how you win.

      You can’t stop what the CD say or do, I would go about my life and forget about her, be courteous and nothing more. As for gift giving I stopped that long ago, give them a Bible, or tickets to the museum, donate to a charity on their behalf if you must give something.

      I would rather be alone than playing the CD’s sick games. There may come a time when your SS eyes may open and you can be there for him, unfortunately, children come along and thats the sad part.

      I hope you keep posting and we can help you make sense out of the senseless. I would encourage you as AndyD suggested to buy the book In Sheep’s Clothing by: Dr. Simon. Under no circumstances give it to anyone that has anything to do with the CDDIL. Keep the knowledge gain to yourself and protect your family. I can guarantee you the CD learn fast and you don’t want to give them any advantage.

      My DIL is the breath of lies and so good at twisting things to her advantage. She has my son snowballed but my son wants to believe her lies. She uses Christianity like a sweet angel playing the harp and inside is seething with jealousy. Once in awhile you get that look that lasts but a second, at the same time you feel and know in your gut something is wrong, trust your gut instinct.

      Don’t let your heart, thinking or emotions be your decision maker, let it be your gut instincts.

      1. Thank-you BTOV for everything you’ve said,

        Let me assure you that all my finances are separate from my husbands with his understanding. My husband’s finances with me are joint. I have a will that is clear and concise as to who the beneficiaries are, a Power of Attorney, Executor and Health Care Directive are in place. My SS has no power over either one of us, no keys, no authority. I have put all my investments in my name and the beneficiary is stipulated so it doesn’t go through my estate as well as a life insurance policy.

        We are not talking vasts amount of money but enough to make our lives easier. My husband had taken care of our future without the inheritance. My husband is in very good health as am I but he is much older than me. We’ve been married for 35 years. He has a pension, I don’t but we are both retired. That said I can be generous with him without being generous to my SS and SDIL. That shipped sailed the day they got married and she let her mask fall. Again our finances are not joint because once they are joint they are ours not mine.

        I understand SDIL has the motivation to be ruthless but and I do have to say but, her focus will be on the mother of her husband. Her MIL and her husband are loaded and we are but two little guppies in a ditch of water in comparison. The MIL (my husband’s ex) rules and dominates with her money and is a manipulator to the nth degree but not as vile as “my” SDIL. I have to wonder how that relationship is going. I’m not in any way being naive about the damage she could inflict but I have to stress that there is almost a total disconnect. I have conceded to a once a year gathering and I don’t even interact with her. I merely watch and learn.

        The SDIL and SS won’t be having children. SS has one who is 26 and SDIL never had any. I overheard her say she doesn’t want any and he doesn’t want to either. Smart.

        1. Sydney,

          It sounds like you have things sorted out. 🙂

          Enjoy your life. Do not take headache of dealing with problem people, they just create problem, unless you care about their target victim.
          It will be nice if you read blogs, books, and discuss via comments. Learning is always good. And you just may pass on some wise insights to your kids and grand-kids. Money is very important, but only till one has enough to meet ones need.

      2. BTOV I got your last post, thank you and have been exploring here ever since.

        Touche and well said above. Our gut instincts are always RIGHT. I have always maintained this posture – never trust NICE people. Some people are just too nice and in a sickening way. People very strong on empathy can pick up their lack of authenticity – it’s all an act. People in love with them can’t see it until the damage has been done. I have finally worked out why.

        In the case of CDs they always initially appear charming, however as time goes buy you start to get niggling sensations that something is not quite right, but our heart tells us otherwise. When you really look at a CD objectively once you’ve stepped back and really looked at them, once the spell breaks, you can see they are empty. Yet they had all these good qualities initially right? LOL wrong, we were projecting our own virtues onto them, they have none. They are morally and ethically bankrupt. I’ve learned something else as well. Jealousy is not the same thing as envy. These people are not necessarily only jealous of us they envy us. Jealousy is coveting something another one has, envy is wanting to totally DESTROY what the other person has if they can’t get it. If they are dependent on the victim they will – well we all know what they do. But to anybody else (in the case of gas-lighters in particular) they are so tragically envious because they know people have qualities/virtues they don’t have and don’t understand other than they get good reviews. They can’t stand to have any other people friends or family as close confidants of their victim as they fear the victim will see the character anomalies and deficiencies in them. These people are apex predators, if I had one wish I’d wish them all to become extinct. They intend to harm, there are no two ifs buts or maybes and they’ll get away with it for as long as they can. While they breath they pose an existential threat to society as a whole.

        1. eudox,

          Very well said. What they envy is what we have, something they will never have, therefore we are an object of their hate, for we have what they have no clue how to attain. Therefore, we are objectified and the ultimate goal in many instances is is to destroy us completely. On the other hand if we are still a useful supply their sick intent is to lobotomize us.

          1. BTOV/Lucy

            Well said both of you – supply is everything. This is what makes them so pathetically and tragically despicable – they are truly energetic vampires. They really get off on degrading and demeaning others. They get a perverted sense of enjoyment off the suffering they cause others as it reinforces their power and false sense of self worth (which in reality they don’t have). They are sadistic to the extreme. A cat playing with a mouse is mere child’s play compared to them. All is well and good when they are the centre of attention playing their game enthralling everyone thinking they’ve conned you but when they are not…………….RUT OH.

            From my experience and without exception, if they don’t stay the shining star in their playbook they get nasty and once they get their supply or are in the process of obtaining it – that smug demented look they get in their eyes and their haughty attitude just caps it off. They really enjoy their game and they are masters of it. They will have it one way or another.

            I can tell you of a very interesting experience with the latest (DC the female pulling the numbers on many of the town folk recently including me) she tried to get supply from me one night by bailing me up and twisting and distorting facts. That’s when I saw her for what she is – I only had a suspicion previously. I stepped back because she stepped into my space, looked her squarely in the eye and said your manipulation tactics won’t work on me this conversation’s over. She became immediately outraged and hostile puffed herself up put her hand on her hip, with her other hand shoved her finger almost in my face and loudly proclaimed with total venom I’ll SAY WHEN THIS CONVERSATION IS OVER. That’s when the penny fully dropped and I knew exactly what she was doing. I said very flatly and with total composure “you have no power of me, this conversation is over now” then I turned my back on her and walked out. Boy do they hate this.

            Then something very odd happened and I’ve never seen this before – EVER, she followed me out and actually sat at my table but at the end of the table, said nothing, not one word at all but merely looked so damn confused but expressionless at the same time (it’s hard to explain) and she kept tilting her head from side to side like she was trying to figure me out she never took her eyes off me for a moment. I ignored her like she wasn’t there and just started talking to my friend about my day as if she had no previous effect on me (although she did). She was almost robotic and it’s what my friend also said once she left. He said WTF was that? I said a preying mantis that just missed its kill. I don’t think she’s ever had that happen before (somebody standing their own ground) and she didn’t appear to understand it. I’m not sure if anybody saw the original Westworld with Yule Brenner but right at the end he malfunctions – that’s what she looked like.

            These freak shows can only have power over you if you are emotionally attached. Otherwise they have ZIP. That was a very empowering experience and being able to see it for what it was without being attached to it was a real eye opener. With all my other experiences with CDs I have either been emotionally attached or answered to them on a professional basis so it changes the dynamic. That was a totally different experience. It took me days to get over it though. They still extract energy and I think it’s the empathy card and you pick up their malice and it has a very sickening and draining effect. It didn’t stop there though and she’s really out to get me now. I’m her No 1 target (as far as I am aware) If there is one thing these guys hate it’s being ignored and it’s all I do now. This is exactly how she’s exposing herself to those who haven’t already been burnt by her. She thinks she is so superior and she is so arrogant that she keeps trying to get the upper hand, and I just don’t bite because I just don’t care. She keeps pulling more shit in her cat and mouse amusement but I just by and large ignore her as I am no longer with Tom she has absolutely nothing on me. I used to tolerate her presence when I was with him, but now I’m not I don’t have to. This saga is ongoing as I will not have seen the last of her yet. But I’ll keep you all posted. Input and advice most welcome, I know what I’m up against and what I am doing but I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I don’t need to get the better of her I just have to maintain my sovereignty as a human being. Because at the end of the day I’ve learned this – there is nothing stronger than true gentleness and nothing gentler than true strength.

          2. Eudox,
            In response to the post below, you used your power and knocked them off guard by not responding. No Contact (NC ) shut off their supply. No matter what they say or do, maintain your dignity and always; “The Truth Will Set You Free.” Always deal in reality, and truth, let no one ever define your reality.

            Yes, the CD will be back, in some shape or form to destroy. Always, watch your back with these ones and never respond or interact or engage with them the CD, this is where your power is. Never give it up, keep educating your self as you are doing.

            The are vengeful and vindictive even 30 years later in their sick minds they still remember the slight, imagined, magnified but nonetheless a slight they still intend to get even for. Never turn your back on one and never underestimate their spiteful hatred and envy of you.

        2. Right on point. And this is why we need to steer clear from these people, go no contact, if possible. There is NOTHING positive about staying with the CD. They are life destoryers.

          1. I don’t think you will get anybody to disagree with you on that point here that’s for sure Lucy. However, there are people who need to communicate to these twisted people whether it is professionally or personally such as the case of a person being financially dependent on the CD. It took me years to recover from these emotional thugs and even though I’m over the worst of it I still get hit at times with this lingering sadness that I just can’t shake.

            We’ve been damaged at soul level and that takes a lot of time and love to repair. We’ve already had what I refer to as trauma wounding and once that has happened any further damage can be HUGE. The pain can be unbearable and I believe many suicides are as a result of this particular wounding. What can seriously impact and exacerbate this wounding is when the victim tries to explain this to people who have no understanding of their situation whatsoever. As a result and even though they are trying to offer comfort they often inadvertently continue to wound the already critical patient i.e. “don’t you think you should look at how you may be contributing to his/her behavior” How many times have we all had that? It just proffers up more blame which is the last thing a victim of a CD needs as they have already been blamed for everything notwithstanding reinforcing the lack of self worth the CD has already left us with. It’s what contributes to the person feeling like they are going insane. I’ve just been through that and nobody understood the level of suffering I was actually going through. I got told things such as – oh it’s only a relationship break-up just get over it. This advice was by people who cared about me but who had absolutely no concept about what I was actually going through. Even though they were doing their best and had no intention of hurting me, I felt like I was getting kicked over and over again.

            What these people need particularly those whose situation requires ongoing contact especially in close proximity to these ghouls is a safe haven. One where they can get support from those who fully understand what they are going through and who can be there to provide support for them 24/7. Often enough these people can’t even go to a psychologist for this type of support, half the time they don’t even know what’s wrong with them other than they are not coping. There is something wrong with them – they are being sometimes physically but ALWAYS intellectually, emotionally and spiritually abused and they are trying to cope the best way they can. But how can they cope the best way they can when they have nobody to help them because nobody truly understands what they are going through and the advice they receive ends up inadvertently to be another form of abuse?

            Each and every time I contribute to this forum, I get further insights into my own suffering, flashes of the original cause of it and just how long I have held onto this pain and why. It is allowing me to see and be receptive to others particularly those who are close to me, and who have hurt me that they themselves have been hurt and traumatised. I am not talking about psychopaths and malignant narcissists they are a different kettle of fish but I have been putting them all in the same basket and there are some out there including my own daughter who is lashing out as a result of held onto pain despite her finding her own ways and self help in order to try to deal with it. I know she’s done some despicable things, but there is something more to it than that. I am beginning to see there are many layers that need to be peeled back when it comes to trauma healing. It reminds me of the adage – beware staring into the abyss for the abyss stares back at you.

            I am very grateful for coming to this forum and finding such a wonderful place albeit full of sad and horrendous stories but to find those behind them are genuinely wanting to heal themselves, others and this world. Coming here has been like finding a miracle. This is so far above psychology and psychiatry, it is more than just a website. It is truly a holistic diagnostic and healing centre for emotional and spiritual trauma. May God bless each and every one of you and thank you Dr Simon for creating this space.

          2. Eudox,
            They refer to us as enablers, I do not like this word one bit. We could had had a healthy spouse and done the same things. It’s the CD who is the deceitful person who knows full well what they are doing.

            These princes of darkness are very covert in their Mind-F-ing, they use forms of mind control by their manipulative behavior and can fool many of the top doctors. Never estimate these ones. Perhaps, some of the CD that aren’t of the malignant variety their may be some salvage. But the full blown ones short of losing their pathetic lives call on God. I have seen this done.

            For the majority our knowledge is power, never, ever educate the MCD you will only make them all the wiser.

            As for not have a place for people to go, there are The Women’s Resource Centers, they call them abusers and they do know what we go through there are many women and some men who have used their services. I encourage anyone that does not have someone to turn to to obtain their services. They also have a 24 hour hotline one can call.

            These individuals the CD are who they are, they have been this way for a long time and they do love themselves. They are all con artists, liars and soul sucking leaches that do feel entitled rather than earning their way. Make no doubt about they are no ones friend.

            You made many good points, and thank you for your kind words.

          3. Eudox,
            You said something before that I have gleaned from questioning people who have CDMN in there families. There seems to be an unusual amount of suicides and it isn’t the CD thats committing suicide, they are other members of their families to include children. I think more effort should be put into this phenomena that seems all to common.

          4. I got out from under the same roof as my CDN but my daughter and her young son is financially dependent on him, so I know what you mean when you say they are not able to get away from the CD. My daughter is getting close to getting away but the damage has been done to her and will continue to damage her till she financially breaks free – then she can break ties of she so chooses. I have not told her yet of all the horrific things he has done as she does not want to hear it yet. She is not strong enough yet to handle it.
            I feel fortunate to have good friends helping me out as well as a good solid career. This man has lived two lives – scarlet to think I slept in the same bed as this monster. Anyone living with these losers has to find a way out. Period. Life with them is no life.

  15. BOTV

    I can understand why people connected to a CDN would commit suicide. And is bet in some instances that is the CDN’s goal.

    1. Lucy,
      If the CDN is a position of financial gain, for instance owning all the marital assetets, life insurance, IRA and investment accounts, they would be in an advantages position if you became to weak to resist and went over the edge, which I believe many have, you just can’t prove it. Thats why they take their time, they know how to set their ducks all in a row. If your producing thats another story.

      Young mothers, with no support sources, children, ones that feel they have no other alternative. I wholeheartedly , believe if these so called suicides were thoroughly investigated I think a whole other scenario would unfold. This way they get an endless supply for a long time, “oh poor so and so the lost their
      wife. ” What a crock.

      Also, I may use the term him but is interchanged and can just as easily be a woman. I believe this sickness is equally shared by both sexes. So no offense guys.

      1. No offense taken.

        There is undeniable hard data to prove that there is gender difference to suicide rate. Men have much higher success rate… partly explained due to determination, high tolerance to violent methods, and more professional way a male may approach suicide business. 😉

        The number of suicide attempts may present a different picture about gender differences. But, one never knows how many attempts were really serious attempt, and how many were half-hearted attempts or even fake attempts.

    2. Reminds me of a horrible week that I had several years ago. During that week, on several occasions I wished a vehicle hit me while I cross the street. I don’t think I was depressed enough to actually jump in front of a vehicle, but still it was a bad episode due to my dear CD spouse. I also don’t think getting me to kill myself was her short-term or long-term goal, as I was earning 10 times the money that was getting spent on keeping me alive and presentable. I don’t think something like that will ever repeat again even if I run into a worse person than her. I guess what does not kill us, makes us stronger.

      And to think of it, even now sometime I think maybe this divorce is bit too much for my character disturbed wife, and that she may feel low enough to hurt herself. Funny! I still care (a bit), knowing fully well that if I share this with some psychologist in some joint counseling session, my wife’s first attempt will be to simply deny (or at best minimize) her past actions and catastrophize her current state.

      The person that is getting hurt most is my daughter. Her sun and moon are still father and mother. And, she is not old enough to understand that nastiness these people spread. I just hope she makes through everything and stay sufficiently intact to judge everything for herself sometime in future.

        1. AndyD, Lucy
          I think many men don’t realize or they feel ashamed, it goes against a man’s sense of self and masculinity to reach out like women do or talk about these things. Therefore, the incidences with men go unreported. Help me to say this right.

          I truly believe that many suicides are registered as other causes such as depression or other psychiatric diagnoses as the cause. If truly investigated I think we would find some very dark secrets of malignant narcissism or worse that were at work behind the scenes.

          I know that I said nothing for decades and many people just simply don’t know what they are dealing with, just like us, until our eyes were open. I hate to say this but I believe many of us are more qualified than many in the medical field to diagnose the CD character disordered. It’s not all this deep psychosis, although dysfunction is passed on. (Whole separate discussion)

          Many of us develop a special sense/capacity of feeling them in our presence, resonating from our heart, soul, mind and gut. It also holds true when speaking with someone that is being preyed upon by one. You just start to get that feel and the subtle signs/flags start popping up that others would write off.

          Exactly, like the movie Gaslight which I would encourage all to watch. Saw it many times but never truly understood the significant dynamics of the movie except that this man was a sinister diabolical thief trying to steal his wife’s money at any cost.

          However, the movie was not just a movie but in fact about the true nature and reality of many individuals walking down the street.

          We must always beware and use caution, this is a sickness that is of epidemic proportion in this world and in our country, being tolerated more and more.

          I know that we do have power over these kind and that is to show our strength of character and to always deal in truth. Truth is the answer/weapon, they cannot deal with truth. Truth is like holding the crucifix or mirror in front of the vampire.

        2. Understandable, I’ve felt the same way with abusers. What you were going through Andy about not caring if you got hit by a car is suicide ideation. It’s thinking death would be better than living but not actually contemplating killing oneself – I’ve had that as well.

          They not only very nearly tip us over the edge but every time I have to deal with one now even some online trolls – I get a really nasty vibe it resonates through my entire being. You can just feel the malice even through words. They are truly despicable creatures to the point I don’t even think they have souls.

          Every time I hear of a suicide now I can’t help but think how many of these poor people had to contend with narcissistic abuse in their family. I reckon the stats would be alarming. The last guy here was only 15 years old, he hung himself and was posting some seriously alarming stuff apparently. The problem with teens is that other teens aren’t mature enough to be able to tell if somebody should be on watch. From what I’ve heard he claimed both his parents hated him. I’m sue they didn’t but if one of them was CD then that might be another story.

          1. Eoudox,
            The child would verbalize it as hate, when both parent seem to have no affection for the boy. Read Dr. Scott Pecks: People of the Lie.
            I know of a person who’s both parents are N. the child the turned into an MN. An interesting thing this N told me was; ” My parents had me not because they loved me but to have a servant who would do what the needed done.” This is very sad, this is in par,t this selfish behavior is the making of an Narcissist.

        3. Andy
          I have those thoughts. it is because of the continued chronic despicable actions they keep taking trying to make our – and others’ – lives intolerable. My life would be so much better without him in it. That’s just the way it is. And I see no end In sight – ever – to him getting out and staying out of my life

          1. And I have those thoughts run me down by a truck thoughts – when I’m worn out. They wear us down. But those aren’t suicide thoughts – more just I am isick of this shit thoughts.

          2. Lucy, AndyD, Eudox,

            I think many of us have had these thoughts, because we are the ones that stayed and tried to make it work. See the cycle of abuse, we get pulled back into the lull, we want to make things work, pulled in again long enough be recycled. There have been many that have made me feel this way, it seemed at those moments it was the only thing that could shut the CD voices off.

            I can still hear them and am so grateful they are gone, I cared for my father, who was never a father. I cried when he died for what could had been and also was glad I didn’t have to hear his whining and complaining, the sheer ugliness he exuded.

            We are the glue that is holding everything together in the relationship and not knowing we have this power to utilize we get stuck, that is why Dr. Simon’s writings, and teachings are so important. Dr. Simon addresses all these questions we weren’t able to answer in ultimate simplicity.

            I do believe the CD get a sense of satisfaction in trying to push us over the edge, it fulfills that power quest they are on. They are careful not to give the final push if we are their main source, like you AndyD and Lucy, I was too. In the background they do get their ducks in order so it is wise to never underestimate especially when there are large insurance policies out there.

            Another thing to consider, when we become disabled or need help is another time they will turn on you. They hate weakness in any form and the last thing these selfish evil ones want to do is care for anyone. These are things one always must consider in dealing with the CD, never underestimate them.

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