Dangerous Deceptions and Character Disorders

I’ve been posting on one of the principal distinguishing features of character disturbed and character disordered individuals: their penchant for serious, sometimes highly “artful” lying (see also:  The Art of the Lie and Why Some People Lie So Much). And while character-impaired individuals are notorious for having chronic problems with the truth, there are two types of deceptions in which they engage that present the greatest dangers to relationships. The first type of deception is the kind that prompted me to write my first book In Sheep’s Clothing. It has to do with what some theorists and authors have called the art of “impression management” (for an egregious illustration of this capacity, see the article: “I Am Not a Monster:” Impression Management Ariel Castro Style), and sometimes it can be carried to a highly pathological extreme.  There are, unfortunately, people who are simply not who they appear – proverbial wolves in sheep’s clothing who, while they know their own  nature all-too-well, don’t want you to know who they really are so they can get what they want from you.  But as I’ve mentioned before and illustrate in my book Character Disturbance, character disturbance exists along a continuum (for more on this topic see the series of articles on the character disturbance continuum beginning with: Character Disturbance Exists Along a Continuum), so the degree to which someone knowingly and deliberately misreprents themself and with truly malevolent intent can vary considerably.  The second type of deception disturbed and disordered characters are known for is self-deception, which I’ll have more to say about in next week’s series concluding article.

I’ve told this story before, but I think it worth telling again:  I was asked to mentor a colleague who had recently carved some time out of his private practice to provide psychiatric services to a women’s prison.  It seems he’d been too often “conned” into prescribing several highly abusable drugs to inmates who in turn were selling them at a handsome profit and trading them for various favors.  And when I first gently approached the topic of why it probably wasn’t a good idea to simply take an inmate’s word for things when gathering the information necessary to make a diagnosis he asked a question that stands out in my mind even today:  “Why would they lie?” (Remember, this is a professional used to treating individuals who came to him in great distress and truly needed help).  Of course, it would have taken an eternity to list all of the umpteen thousand reasons folks who virtually lie for a living would have for casting false impressions, but suffice it to say that I had to really make the point that some folks simply don’t want you to know who they really are or what they’re really all about simply because they know that if they’re straight-up with you, you probably won’t give them whatever it is they want from you.

The most disastrous relationships I’ve witnessed over the years all began with a “con” of some sort. Sometimes the deception was both knowing and deliberate as in the case of one severely character disordered woman who completely but artfully misrepresented herself to a man of incredible financial means merely to gain access to part of a fortune and a lifestyle most of us could only dream about and the case of a notorious user, abuser, and “hustler,” who made it his life’s mission  to charm, seduce, exploit, and then callously discard women of great physical beauty. But other times the wool was not so calculatingly pulled over the eventual victim’s eyes. There are times in all of our lives when we simply don’t trust our better judgment – when we won’t let ourselves see what we’re afraid to see – or when we simply can’t accept what seems too unsettling or unimaginable to believe. And because the most skilled manipulators among us often know our vulnerabilities better than we do, if we’re “in denial” or put the mental and emotional blinders on for some reason or another, we unwittingly make a covert-aggressor’s quest to take advantage of us a whole lot easier.

We live in an age where character disturbance is certainly more prevalent and, arguably, more severe than it used to be. So it’s unfortunately quite dangerous to be too trusting a soul in our times. We simply can’t judge on appearance. And we have to be really sure about our own character health if we’re to fully trust our gut. We have to be particularly mindful, cautious, objective, and be sure to gather the facts. There are individuals out there who are not who or what they appear and if we take the way they present themselves to us at face value, we could easily be duped.  Fortunately, a person’s track record will often betray them. So, offer all those contemplating a relationship the same advice I gave the good doctor I referenced in the story above years ago: do your homework – look objectively at the history – don’t just take his or her word for things – be mindful of your own needs and vulnerabilities, and then maybe, just maybe you won’t get the wool pulled over your eyes.

Character Matters will again be a live program this Sunday so tune in at UCY.TV at 7pm EDT (4pm PDT) and join the conversation!

139 thoughts on “Dangerous Deceptions and Character Disorders

  1. Your book changed my life. I can only explain it as like being in the matrix movie and taking whatever pill it was that made you see the truth. That’s how different reality was to what I had thought it was. It was really bad. Since then I’ve read many books on covert aggression and believe that my Ex wife is the most disturbed character that I have ever read about. It’s really just about being extremely selfish but hiding it through lying about everything to me and to herself

      1. Wow. Thank you so much for replying and writing them. It was like whole paragraphs of what you said in the book she said to me word for word!! I give a copy to every people pleaser I know.

        1. Thomas, the more time you spend on this blog, the more times you will read a post by someone else……and say that is exactly what my CD did. It really is amazing.

      2. The true principles of psychology are found in the Holy Scriptures. Man knows not his own value. He acts according to his unconverted temperament of character because he does not look unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of his faith. He who comes to Jesus, he who believes on Him and makes Him his Example, realizes the meaning of the words “To them gave He power to become the sons of God.” …
        Those who pass through the experience of true conversion will realize, with keenness of perception, their responsibility to God to work out their own salvation with fear and trembling, their responsibility to make complete their recovery from the leprosy of sin. Such an experience will lead them humbly and trustfully to place their dependence upon God.— Manuscript 121, 1902.

        I may not be eloquent in my approach… but all that I have said is Truth. The only Truth and nothing but the Truth. GOD is real and He is coming… so prepare your selves, before it is to late.

        This is your site, Dr. Simon you have say what is allowed or not here. And I have my choice… and I chose to use it only for what God has commanded. And my God is real and is coming to judge the world from Adam to the time appointed. Only the LORD Jesus Christ can save us from our evil ways.

        You do as you please toward this account Dr. Simon… I am but a helpless lamb.

        Peace and Honor

        1. You are not a helpless lamb. Nor are you incapable of eloquence and prudence. And I would remind you that we are all commanded not to invoke the name of the Lord for any vain or self-serving purpose. On this blog, please speak for yourself and do so prudently, and your comments will always be welcome. As I stated earlier and mean sincerely, my past editing of your comments has absolutely nothing to do with your faith or conviction. And my faith and conviction should be in evidence by my approach.

    1. The Dangerous Deception of the Lie is the real kicker of the Charactered Disorded. Oh, can we be fooled. I still haven’t gotten angry with my X CD, I feel pity, and embarrassment for him and for me. In retrospect I ask myself how could I had stood and accepted that. But when someone like the CD badgers you and uses covert mind control it easy to understand how many persons in a situations like this acquiesces and admits guilt for fantasied wrongs by the CD just to shut them up.

      Its still hard to fathom how ignorant the lies are. Listening to them they sound ridiculously crass. Mine would always say ” If someone could hear you” meaning me. PROJECTION I didn’t even have to figure it out he was talking about himself. What a pathetic mess. I still feel empathy for him, But the brat crow has got to learn to fly no more rides on my frail back. The CD will bring their own judgement from God and I do pray for him but that is me.

      Getting back from what I was abel to piece together from his life, it was all built on lies. I was his biggest fan and I believed him and in him. Whats hard to believe is everything wasn’t enough, he wanted to destroy me, the good attributes he exploited he hated and wanted to destroy. What a mixed up mess. Our whole life was built on lies. Emotions of love and concern are not turned on like a spickett, they should be emotions of tears and joy, concern for pain and a need to help. The Narcissist and the Charactered Disordered are walking, talking vessels of lies. The image of a bling world of stuff AND LUCIFER prancing around like the Emperor has No Clothes and the silly Wizard of OZ, Mr Magoo, The Three Stooges, to be included Charles Manson all wrapped up neatly in a nice suit, tall dark and handsome looking for a supply fix.

      Back to the head board, Johnny’s back for a game of lies. Blessings to all

  2. I came across this video this morning and I am amazed at the lengths of deception these people go to. As Dr. Simon pointed out that these individuals lie because they don’t want anyone to know the true person. When a person takes advantage of a child they show exactly what kind of a coward they really are. This video hits very close to home literally. I dealt with this and I still deal with it.

      1. I am sorry. I show on my end that the video went through. I sent it as an attachment. It is Familial Sabotage of the Narcissistic Parent.

  3. Dr. Simon, your books are so amazing! The number of people you have reached out to help are many. This subject hits close to home for me and the situation I find myself in. My DC is very manipulative and influences others with constant made up lies about me to cast me in a very negative light. I have dealt with this DC for most of my life, but the last six years have been especially trying on my sanity. All I can do is hope and pray, and maybe read some more of your books and blog entries to gain some sort equilibrium in my life. Thank you so much for the inspiration and the words that help me through my daily struggle.

  4. What brought me to this blog was a Youtube video of Dr. Simon where he says something extremely interesting and crystal clear: “We live in the “just do it” age”… but most of the psychological models that are applied today come from the “don’t even think about it” era.

    Then, in my opinion:
    1- Blaming parents for the narcissistic behavior of their children is outdated. In recent years I have seen an increasing number of good, nurturing, non-abusive parents suffering over the narcissism of their children.
    2- Diminishing the power and influence of social trends in the behavior of liars and narcissists is hurting us, because WE (the affected part) are tuning the blind eye to a key element of our days: the reign of body over soul, ignorance over intelligence, chaos over peace and ruthless behavior over kindness. Just watch the Kardashians reality show or the movie Idiocracy and enjoy the flavor of our era and what we could become in the future.
    3- If we track back the life of a liar and we are able to find where he/she really comes from, most of the time we will be amazed of the fact that they use to hide all the sane and good people who were part of their lives; those who where used, deceived and forgotten (including, of course, good parents, mentors and family members).

    In conclusion, I fully agree with Dr. Simon when he says “we are living in a whole new age with a whole new set of problems”. If we are conscientious, kind and valuable people, we need to know that every single day will have its challenges, because we are not “cool” from the point of view of many of our contemporaries.

    1. The couse of all this is because of mankind choice to rebel against a Holy GOD . And GOD is coming to cleanse this sin infested world…. GOD is real, and He is coming and the LORD Jesus Christ is GOD the Son, whom went through all the narcissist Sadducees, and different Judeans Priest hood, as well people whom denied their Messiah…. Sent him to the Romans whom beat him with whips, and took pleasure in each hit, sadistically… Saw His disciples flee from him in fear they would die too, beared a cross while brused and beaten, and abused… For the demons were working in those crowds. Nailed on a cross… Which is a symbol of paganism, the devil false religion. Until the final words came out of His mouth ” it is finished” The LORD Jesus Christ is no stranger to the afflicted and poor… He suffered every known temptation and was abused and murdered by the very people who welcomed Him. Even today the name Jesus is blasphemed…. Of all faiths the name Jesus Christ is readily blasphemed.

      Yet death could not stop GOD. For little did the devil knew, that His death was the sacrifice for our sins…. That the LORD would be punished for our sins which he had no share in, so that we… Would receive His Righteousness which we have no share in.

      What kind of love is this? That the CREATOR of the Universe would come to this evil world… The only planet that rebelled,among trillions of trillions of trillions. So that He could save that which was lost, even to the point of death.

      This Doctor shares good skills so that we could learn to spot underhanded tactics…. Yet this cannot save anyone from eternal death. We must put all that we have in GOD in Jesus Christ… No servant is greater than His master. The Christ was hated, and so will be His servants. Though their is nothing to fear… For GOD has given us His Son as a promise, that we too whom are in the Christ. Will be given everlasting life and be reconciled back unto God, the source of Life.

        1. repent of your sins or you will burn in hell, your statement is perverted… and God is coming. prepare to meet your God harlot woman.

          1. You will notice that several of your comments have been removed as has the comment that apparently prompted this most recent one. This is in line with an admonition I gave months ago about proper decorum with respect to posts. Religious conviction is not the issue here. But there’s such a thing as going too far with both proselytizing and personal indictment. I encourage you to contribute with due respect for the necessary guidelines for an informed and civil discussion but will remove any posts that appear extreme and unnecessarily provocative. I’d hate to have to restrict you from commenting altogether, so I hope you properly heed this request.

            Thanks,

            Dr. Simon

          2. I do agree. Certain things have certain rules. When a person has chosen to avoid responsibility often the words prejudice or censorship are used.

          3. Hi Carrie,

            I have to jump in and out, just so very busy. Listened to all of smckintoshs utube tapes, I found a lot of validation and truth, strong truth not to give nothing or they the CD will try to rob you of your life..

          4. They definitely will rob you of your life. The dark side does not play games and it is one of my biggest dreams to educate people so the DC does not get to add anymore notches on their guns.
            Hugs to you and I hope you are busy doing what you love!!

          5. Thanks Carrie, Hi LuLu, Puddle, Elva, LisaO & others,
            Many times its a lonely and scary place with the CD N. 4 1/2 years later and 35 years of your life and the monkey still wants to hang onto the past. Their minds are a diseased wasteland of hate and destruction. Sounds like the devil and hell, and I truly believe there is a connection. They have their hands cupped over their ears and REFUSE to hear anything, the lies they tell themselves and believe – and the kicker is they expect everyone else to believe their LIES to be the truth.

            Big breath, Yes, educate everyone you can, break the chain of deceit, break the generational sin.. We have power within us to make a change that is why they hate us so. Turn the tables and become the best you can be. Incorporate the PTSD to make you stronger. There is good that can come out of the wreckage. Don’t ever let the sick Charactered Disturbed Narcissistic Psychopath steal any more of our lives and time and beware, guard your soul.

            Thank you Dr. Simon for this place of peace and refuge.
            Blessings to all you Kindred Spirits.

          6. Yes, Lets discuss another time. I believe he has a demon and it hates me because I am a christian. He loves the way he is. I have a sister, a paraplegic who has schizophrenia and said before she displayed symptoms of her of her schizophrenia she dabbled in witchcraft. I know that the CD I have to deal with are like something takes over them.
            I know that in the Catholic church there are priests that still do exorcisms.

          7. I have definitely noticed a lot of the same things. I really notice some very questionable acts from many of my hardcore narcs. My first husband’s mother was so mean and was very proud to be a witch and told me that there’s no such thing as earth angels. She was probably the most outward member of the dark side that I dealt with. I was quite a bit younger then and ended up with an ulcer. Quite a few of my other narcs show a different devilish facial expressions or have an empty look in their eyes that leads down to their soul. I have not thought of them as having demons but I figured they were the demons. I went to a pastor once to talk about certain things that were going on in my life and he had a cold heartless stare and kept saying, “What do you want from me?”
            Things are very sad right now and I seem to have an overabundance of evil on my tail. Your thoughts reinforce what I have been thinking.
            I found this attachment and it goes along very well with this conversation.

          8. I have seen lots of undesirable qualities in my ex psycho. He could turn on aggression very quickly. He had the empty look in his eyes also. He would get really crazy and act out if we ever spoke of church or the bible. He said that born again Christians were the worst ones!!

          9. Jedi of Christ, and others please bare with me. Jedi, I am a Christian and a very strong in the word practicing sister. I understand your statement, it is however, uncalled for here. I take offense at call the person a harlot, this is in the gutter treatment and could very well be used as the tactic of a Charactered Disordered Person. I think everyone her has had their fill of this type of person. This site is based on trust and honesty, uplifting and nurturing the ill trodden coming to this site looking for acceptance.

            The love, care, concern, camaraderie extended to all that come to this site is an attribute of God. At the same time there are so many hurting people that need Dr. Simons site and all the people who reach out to them, they need to be accepted and loved, fed the truth and help unraveling the unbelievable lies. We need to catch our breath and know we found some truth, then begins the time to absorb and deal with the pain no condemation ! There is a time and place. Many times I will speak of Christ and the effect is has had on my journey, but some times we must just be quiet. Blessings Jeddi

          10. Please excuse my typo’s and grammar , still in the loop with the CD and short on time. Hug to all.

  5. This is such a fantastic article. I’m one of these trust to easy type people and it sure hasn’t done me any good at all. Great advice at the end altho I struggle to think objectively, its a skill.

  6. I had to really make the point that some folks simply don’t want you to know who they really are or what they’re really all about simply because they know that if they’re straight-up with you, you probably won’t give them whatever it is they want from you.

    Dr Simon has just described my it mother. They can hide behind Altruism, Gift giving, charity work. My it mother has played her entire family and continues to do so.

    1. Yes I too have noticed several covert aggressive that I know use being very considerate as a tool to fool people into believing they are good people but they are not.

    2. Hi Joey, Your comments make me laugh. I just got through looking through a book store. The man at the front desk was very nice. I asked if he had a copy of MOMMY DEAREST. He looked at me with a very terrified terrified look on his face and said, “That book is horrible and so terrifying!” (I really did not want to go into the issue that I grew up that way so I probably would not be too scared) I just replied that I loved to read books that make me think and I am sure that would do it. I find it so interesting that there is very little published on this kind of think and what is published is considered to be a horror story that is something that is way out of realization. Yes, my mommy narc is a master.of deception also. She used to drive the special needs kids from our small town to a bigger town for school. No one knew that she took every chance she could get to degrade and humiliate them. She used to babysit the town children for not much money. The town’s people thought she was a saint but in reality it was giving her an outlet for all of her pinned up anger when she beat them. Now she goes to the bread outlet in the bigger town to get the day old bread for the local food bank. Of course, she comes home in a really bad mood but the community people think she is MOTHER TERESA. She also has a rescue dog and that is also a great deception tool. She abuses the dogs when no one is around also.
      My sister rescues dogs and this is her cover. She would be a fantastic MOMMY DEAREST but THANK GOODNESS she has no children. I refuse to be around her so I don’t know many of the awful things she doea. I just know that she was a major player in my daughter’s downfall.
      I have also met a pastor who was very underhanded. He had a fantastic predator stare and I am sure his family suffered greatly. I went to speak to him about things that were going on in my life and he just looked at me with his predator stare and told me that I was very wrong about things.
      These people are masters of deception and huge liars!!

      1. I understand there is also a book called ” A BOY CALLED IT ”
        These agrressives which the Narsissist is one. Cannot process shame, it is at the core of narsissism ( DR DAVID K Thomas “Behind the Mask “)
        It allows them to twist the truth to themselves and to others, which by the sound of things MICHAEL has been subjected to.

        1. My malignant mommy narc knew lots of tricks. She lied to my entire family. She got them turned against me. She also told authority figures lies and they turned against me. It is scary to think what the narc mind can do. She used to tell my dad all kinds of lies about me and get him pumped up so he would just lose his temper and scream and yell at me until I just sat and cried. She always had a smirk on her face!!
          It is really sad to think that my protector was getting such pleasure from watching me suffer. I was always the center of her life but in the wrong way. Man’s inhumanity to man is very sad.

          1. Yes I know the exact look. Dr Simon described it perfectly once when my ex had manipulated me and I knew on my gut that something was wrong but couldn’t verbalized it she would be “beaming with excitement” in the fact that she had manipulated me but I couldn’t tell. They think we’re all just puppets to use for their pleasure, thinking they are special with this brazen, arrogant attitude they possess. I told her later that she isn’t special at all she just lied to people who trusted her and that made her a piece of shit! And also said that she was actually a simpleton and a coward because of you never submit or risk anything in like of course you never fail and learn from the experience. Dr Simon was also dead on about when they never submit they don’t grow as people. My wife after 20 yrs of marriage was the same exact person that I met when she was nineteen. Working a clerk God for minimum wage avoiding responsibility at every turn working at orchard supply hardware where she could have access to lots of men. Even though she got straight a’s in college and was very beautiful. People told her that too much and she became a slave to her ego and her ID. Very sad how she screwed up all five of my kids in the process.

          2. Wow I’m so glad I joined this blog. I’m doing from email on my phone. Feels good to hear others that went through this. Since we were with a bunch of invalidators lol. That’s what I call them

          3. Thomas, I am glad that you are enjoying this forum. I love places like this where we can all relate. I always knew that things were wrong in my life since I have been very young. People always told me that I was chasing boogers if I ever tried to talk about things. These individuals didn’t know how close to the truth they were.. hahahaha Anyway, my mommy narc had managed to tell everyone lies about me and my state of mind so no one would believe me anyway. Her smear campaign went far and wide. Even still people think that I am trying to gossip when I talk about this horrible dysfunction.
            Have you ever noticed that two upfront, honest and trustworthy people hardly ever get together? Human nature is not so easy to understand. One always has to suck the life out of the other. These narcissist individuals really like to use the innocence of children and animals. If you want to read an excellent book on this subject get WITHOUT A CONSCIENCE by Robert Hare. I like to get several view points from different authors. Dr. Hare even runs a safe haven for these abused individuals. What a life!! I would love to do that. It would somehow make my life so much more complete.
            Every person in this evil crowd is so insecure. If at the end of the day they feel like they have won then they may be happy for a few minutes. They are very miserable people. I have been married twice and they were both narcissistic spoiled individuals. My second husband was very outwardly psycho also. He was in the Navy for 16 years and for part of that time he worked at at a survival camp. He was teaching the soldiers what to do if they were ever in a POW camp. I am sure that he was excellent. He learned a few more tricks there to add to his psycho agenda.
            FYI…. something interesting to look into would be NPD (narcissistic personality disorder.) Happy reading!!

          4. I know that I was ecstatic when I found out what was going on in my life. So many people were out to make me feel crazy. I want to help as many people as I can. You are very welcome to ask me questions anytime. If I don’t know the answer than I will use it as a learning experience and find out.

          5. Bingo! My “protector” was getting so much pleasure from watching me suffer. So true for the X, sickening to think anyone could do that to another human, took me getting help through this blog to understand the purposeful cruelty. Mom loved my pain too.

  7. The mention of “self-deception” struck a chord with me today as I’ve been thinking about this concept a lot. When my ex-wife abandoned me for her boyfriend she was able to convince herself that somehow she could do this, but still love and care about me at the same time. I couldn’t understand it at the time and just thought it was a feeble attempt at impression management. But what I’ve come to realize is that she was able to create some twisted narrative in her head that helped her justify cheating and abandoning her husband for another man, but still be a good person. And IMHO I believe disturbed characters have this twisted ability and it helps them to perpetuate their own evil.

    1. Yes I used to literally watch my ex wife talk herself into shit that wasn’t true all the time. For instance she would argue with me stating that ” you can’t refuse to pay child support or refusing to pay child support is not an option” when I never said anything like that. I was happy to pay. They are my kids. But she was “planting seeds” of deception for herself. So that in the future when she thought about me and child support from the past it would be me refusing to pay. I believe that is the very definition of insane right!!!

      1. Playing mind games is a favorite tactic of these manipulators: “For instance she would argue with me stating that ” you can’t refuse to pay child support or refusing to pay child support is not an option” when I never said anything like that. I was happy to pay.”

        You can start to feel as though you’re the crazy one, which is what they want. And by imputing false motives to others they get to play the victim role. My brother has done this with me; “you just say that’s not what you’re feeling/thinking/wanting to do, but I know you do, you just won’t admit it.”

        Someone said manipulators and character disordered only tell lies as long as they’re breathing, the rest of the time they’re fine 🙂

        1. GG , I was just thinking about this same thing this morning. My ex hardcore phycho was fantastic at this. He would go off to work in the morning with a level head and then think of ways he could torment us. This was one of his very favorite things to do. It worked especially well on the kids. They had no idea what was going on.
          I now realize that mommy narc has gotten so much worse over time. She may have a case of BPD mixed in with her NPD. What a combination!! She tries to keep everyone on constant eggshells. She doesn’t use the same tactics to put everyone on eggshells as the hardcore psychopath did. She is just emotionally up and down all the time. She is able to use several tactics to break her victim down mentally and then she floods them with lies. She loves to use temperature, light, and even food to try to break her victim before she starts the intense lying. When she wakes up in the morning she will not let anyone turn on any lights or open windows. We just got central air installed in the house and she hates it because she wants everyone sweaty, uncomfortable and vulnerable. The other day I found some PINWHEEL cookies in the frig outside and brought them in. I proudly got a cookie out and told my dad, “Grandma and I used to love to eat these cookies together.” Well, she took the cookies and hid them. She tries whatever she can to break people. She begins her constant lying after she has done this. Hahahaha….

          1. Carrie, what a horror you’ve lived and are living through! And it’s hard to think clearly when you’re being pelted with all these packets of poo. I think of monkeys throwing feces around when I imagine these CDs and narcissists.

            The stuff is so bizarre you ask yourself: “did I really just hear that?”

          2. Oh my goodness!! It has been a crazy life and thats for sure. I am just at the point now that I know what is going on so it’s not such a struggle anymore. I like to look at it as gathering more and more knowledge to learn how to extinguish these predators. I expose a few more wherever I go. Everytime the light is shown that exposes them then the cockroaches skurry. My mommy narc and her band of predators has been exposed and that’s why things are so crazy right now. It is very scary at times.
            I love the cute sayings you use. Monkeys that throw poop is exactly what they do. Mommy narc had the whole family under her control because of her excessive lies. I am down here right in the middle of all of them destroying the blanket of confusion piece by piece. She has the light on her right now and she is losing her mind. Hahahaha……

        2. Note: This comment has been edited by the moderator.

          I concur with the underlining message… people who are deep in sin spread death and filth rather than loving kindness. Christians are advised to avoid filthiness and silly talk, or even coarse jesting, but rather to always give thanks. In short, we’re called to be HOLY in both word and deed.

          Peace and Honor

          1. Yes, I would tend to agree with you on this however, some of the worst lyers, cheats, and murderers that are sitting in the pews regularly and can be the pastor to boot. We never know who is lurking behind the lying
            robe of faith. We must be very carful in all areas that we are never used by the Godless undertakers of Count Dracula. In many churches they promote and live the truth, but the churches are going the way of the world. Blessings

            world accepting the lie, First they like the lie and want to believe the lie and Wala, we have a very distorted group of people representing all because the say they are Christians. Ah what a lie is capable of destroying.

      1. I know all about that sruff. My hardcore narcissist-psychpath husband did the same thing. At first he would have me so confused that I has no idea which way was up. He was an expert! He was a recruiter in the military and I bet his numbers were fantastic.

      2. Btw, I love your phrase making black seem white. Hahahaha….I just heard one of my major narcs use it to describe one of her victims!!

      3. “Planting seeds of deception for herself”, that is interesting Tom. My ex did the same stuff – too much to mention. But she would create these narratives about me that had no truth to them, then get pissed off at me for it. I had no idea what she was talking about. Most of it had to do with her jealousy. I just chalked it up to her being fiesty. But I know better now.

        1. Mine did the exact same thing. She’d leave to visit her dad and family talk all kinds of lies about me then come back and treat me bad as if they were true. Haha wackjob!!

  8. Dear Dr. Simon,

    Thank you so much for writing Character Disturbance. I found every person in my family in your book , but more I found an understandable and reasonable explanation for WHY.

    I am a neurotic as you put it in your book. But everyone else in my family is a Disturbed Character. I have been persecuted all of my life, but just knowing WHY helps so much. I have over the course of the last year and a half cut every single one of them off. I had to. It was literally them or me. They were going to kill me in a spiritual sense. There were too many of them and only one of me.

    My therapist says she has never treated someone surrounded by as many Disordered people as me. That’s not disbelief she is expressing. They have all contacted her and she goes to great pains to point out to me their obvious Disorder.

    I know after reading your book I am truly a miracle. I am thankful and grateful to God for not allowing me or letting me go down the path of the Disordered.

    I have suffered tremendous pain and anguish. I have PTSD. From my exposure to the sexual abuse, the beatings, the contempt, and the lack of empathy.

    But I have hope, and now with your book I have better understanding. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for writing this.

    1. It is always such a relief to discover the answers to your questions. You can start your much needed healing now. You will find lots of support here!!

    2. You are one of the strongest people I’ve ever heard. To go through all sorts of abuse from everyone around you and come out still standing. I have so much admiration and respect for you.

      1. Very true!! They chose to make you their victim because they see things that make them scared. Now is your time to shine.

  9. I am sorry but I like Cartoons. Just seen TURBO the racing snail by Dreamworks.
    There is a line in the film that I Just Love.

    ” What are you going to do if you wake up tomorrow and your powers are all gone”

    ” I just better make the most of today”

    Wise words from a cartoon snail ?

  10. What I found to be interesting as stated above is the case of the guy who “discarded women of great physical beauty”. Not to toot my own horn but the DC I dated was very picky with women and would only date a certain type (I’ve seen what his exes look like and all of them fall into this “type” including myself). What I noticed about him was that he complemented me ONLY on my looks and that he was “lucky” to have found exactly what he likes in women. I know this was only a way to make me feel special and privileged to be dating him when I knew the whole time I was worth more than just my looks. What’s crazy about the situation is that he often labeled me and all his other past girlfriends as stalkers, crazy, possessive, controlling…anything negative. Overall it was just a stupid game he was playing to make it look like he had all of these women lusting after him when in fact he was just a pathetic, manipulative loser.

    1. Amanda, The P who targeted me gained my sympathy by painting an ugly picture of his wife, his former wife. And on and on. My favorite line, “this morning she accused me of killing a squirrel!”
      I’m betting now that she did question him but that he did kill it. His former wife tried to murder him. It was all so crazy. And it always sounded a bit suspicious but I wasn’t in the right frame of mind to recognize or examine all of the red flags. Had no clue that it was all textbook manipulative predation.

      And also way too much praise all around — at first. It was flattering but almost started going to my head. All kind of creepy. The constant flattery struck me as a little strange. But the P who went after you — it was just about appearance? You must have felt like a mannequin. And all the talk of women more or less fighting over him? Designed to create a lofty impression of himself.

      1. The Bible says to reject all flattery. Flattery is always meant for the flatter to ingratiate himself. Only GOD is to be Praised. And GOD is coming

    2. Very wise deduction!! That very same thing is what I look at first- it is a giant red flag. When I was working at the truck stop I saw a guy that I used to go to school with. I thought he was disgusting then and I still think he is disgusting. I was nice to him regardless and said, “How have you been doing?” He went on to telling me that his ex girlfriend was a psycho and he was trying to get custody of his daughter. He asked me for my number after that but there was no way he was going to get it. About six months later I found out that he went back to prison for having guns in his possession. I don’t need another psycho.
      Ya, it’s very important that you learn all the red flags so you don’t repeat the same mistakes.
      My ex psycho also did this thing where he would find out what his victim liked and would meet your expectations and tell me that his ex found that to be so intimidating.Last time my son was up visiting him he came home and told me that Em (the new girlfriend) was very abused by her husband. She was always so sad that the father of her children did not pay attention to them. When I went to pick up my son it was a very long process. His douchebag father spent an extraordinary amount of time crying and hugging my son. Em was there and witnessed the whole thing. His pathetic excuse for a father even stared at the car as we backed out and drove down the road. (The made him look like a wonderful father. In reality the idiot wanted me to get an abortion because he didn’t want to have to take responsibility. Anyway, it made the psycho look like an exceptional human being in her eyes. Long story short, a mother who has been exposed to a man who was neglectful to his kids is going to be partial to a man who goes out of his way to show how much he loves his son. He is using my son to get a leg up on Em and abuse her. In essence, all women love to hear that they’re beautiful so it is a way to make you feel exceptional and unique. He is hoping that you will once again you will let your boundaries down.
      Keep up the good work!!

          1. Carrie, just to let you know that your insights and empathy and STRENGTH are appreciated. I always read the forum, and your posts, though I may not always have time to respond (am at work right now).

            Hugs to you!

          2. That is my main goal. I love to help people whenever I can. I love to read your posts. You are a sweet lady. Have a good day at work!!

    3. I think it’s so great that you are empowering yourself and are starting to be able to understand the tricks he is going to try before he does ’em. Remember that he sees something inside you that he feels that he needs to extinguish. He will try to get you back and even when you think he’s given up he will still try. Remember that you came to the realization that something was wrong in less than a year and that is great. Emotional abuse is so terrible but you are on the road to recovery!! Do yourself a really big favor and never look back!

      1. I’m starting to think that these women aren’t actually crazy but HE was the one who drove them crazy! I know I’m not and although I may be impulsive I know how to control myself and only snap when pushed to an extreme limit. It was all very shallow to the point that I stopped telling him anything about myself. He made me feel almost guilty for how I looked, like it was my fault that I would be complimented by other men. Oddly, my self esteem went down because I thought I could never meet his standards. Its crazy how manipulators can make you feel guilty for anything!

        1. They know exactly how to use their words. They are so good at what they do and a rational mind can not even begin to understand how they make things fit together. It is so important to remember that everyone who smiles at you is not your friend!! I feel that looking at things this way is very sad. I admit that I don’t trust a whole lot of people and I go over every action and word that a person uses with a fine-tooth comb!! Once a person has been the victim of one of these predators it seems that everyone else wants to step in and see if they can damage you some more!! When you are down you definitely find out who your friends are.
          I can almost guarantee you that the dysfunctional individual was making all of his exes crazy. I can truly admit that my ex psycho made me crazy. Yup, he found my breaking point and left me crying but I learned how to find my voice very quickly. He whined to his mother that I had mental issues and needed to go on antidepressants. She called me and told me that if I would go on them then she would pay for them. She had no idea how much she was catering to the sicko. After I kicked the whacky out he called me BITCH. I didn’t care because I knew that he could not break me and that was the reason for the name. I hope all of this never happens to you but I want you to be prepared if it does.
          I am sending an attachment and I got it in a birthday card. I got it from the DC’S mother because she was trying to brainwash me also. She had no idea what kind of behavior she was enabling. I showed this to the counselor when I was trying to make my break.
          Cyber high five and lots of hugs.

          1. Um wow I think you and I dated the same DC!! His mother is his enabler and the bad thing is I’m pretty sure she’s in on his game. She thinks I’m a psycho stalker because of what he tells her. She thinks I’m at the root of his “stress” when he’s the one putting himself in stupid situations. I almost feel like sitting with her and telling her what’s up…but noooo not her precious baby boy who’s sooooo sensitive (barf).
            I totally agree, not everyone who smiles at you is your friend but at least now we know how to determine whether that person is a DC or not. The world is too beautiful to not let your guard down just a little bit. Cyber hugs to you too!

          2. I wish I had only dated him because it would make things a lot easier but I married him. You just remember how lucky you are to have dated the freak because I was married to mine and have a son with him. I won’t be practicing “no contact” for a while. The kids always suffer tremendously from having a narcissistic parent. I know first hand because I have a mommy narc.
            Well, I can only tell you that my mother in law was a victim of the same crap. She was so confused and brainwashed that she did go on anti-depressants to avoid her reality. I saw my ex psycho make his mother cry. She has Parkinsons but the predator still made her cry. There is a big example of his inability to show any empathy. The predator’s father was quite the psycho also. I could always tell by his eyes. He had quite the predator stare and I could see his smirk when he was doing evil.

    4. Jesus Christ is coming. We must repent of our sins before probation for mankind ends, and turn from all our sins and put on Christ Righteousness. For The HOLY GOD of the universe, the CREATOR is coming.

  11. I continue to gain insight from these posts, though much of it years back I had an inkling of, only could never put into words. I’ve found myself like a rabid field mouse not even lost in a maze anymore, but outside its boundaries, enraged at what these unchecked behaviors do to other people, what they (others’ and my own) have done to me, the barb-wired trap my spirit has fallen prey to (that’s actually what it feels like), but with an even greater wake-up call having begun to finally identify these things. Before you even are able to grasp what is happening, It’s like BAM! just like that, like a werewolf, you begin turning into the very people who will never, never admit to their own problems (in my case though, the realization-action continuum was interrupted and stalled over the course of several years). I still feel stuck. In most cases, I think, it’s scary, because they come to a point where they can’t anymore, they do not see the ripple effects that the breaking of barriers cause until it catapults them into their own sad, self-deceived little world.
    Thanks to this blog, my perspective is changing. I say this to a few people around me that, although it doesn’t always look like it, there is a lot of residual pain I am reeling from. Yes, I have to account for my own behaviors, and I am more and more sharpening and honing in on why I do/say/have said/have done certain things, but it is just as much a violation of self to continue in stagnation and forgo the need to identify my own faults and these kinds of people in life. I too am trying to recover and figure all this out. I truly believe in the ‘nurture’ element, that, if we are not careful, we slowly turn into those around us (friends, family, the like), later, those we simply give credence to, and finally, ourselves. Hopefully there is some trace of sound logic leftover in that ‘self’ after we’ve trudged through the first two realms. I can identify with what is stated in this post about the need (which varies from person to person) to hide one’s ‘true self’. For me, looking back at the past, it has been more complex than merely ‘impression management’ — I’ve had a rocky time just accepting and loving myself for who I am/was.
    I heard from a pastor (and I believe there are sincere Christian pastors still in existence today, who, out of love, believe in and practice the good that is left in this world), that it is the voice of God who speaks in scripture, not man acting out of a power trip, cowardice, or insecurity. In speaking of those who follow cult leaders, or just people who in general heed the voice of others who are fanatical and false, he emphasized that the Lord says, “they don’t believe me, because they are not of my sheep” and that “they are listening to the voice of wolves who will devour them.” I am so floored by all the damage that this lack of discernment does, no matter what walk of life one comes from, because like the title of Dr. Simon’s book states, these people ARE wolves, only they are masquerading with subversive, eloquent, enticing speech, as sheep. They never stop doing the wrong thing until they cannot themselves see it anymore.
    I personally do not believe it is ultimately and only the fault of a single person/group of persons that the deception and damage these behaviors perpetuate… only if they NEVER see their own faults. Again, I think, (and this blog touches on it), many of them, without knowing it, have themselves fallen prey to manipulation, lies, narcissism, other disturbed persons and warped mindsets, and simply do not know any other way to function. Their world is full of strife, and they cannot be content without dragging the rest of the world down with them. There are other factors, mainly societal, especially in the Bible Belt, like the pressure to conform, the fear of looking like an outsider, the suppression of individuality, being a “black” sheep who understands these things, but does little to change it, etc., that contribute to the many dynamics involved.
    I still have a long way to go getting back to where I was. Having identified a point in time that completely threw me off course, it’s been a little easier. It’s like the proverbial trail of breadcrumbs a child leaves behind in a cave that helps him reel himself back to a loving, living source. The tools on this site continue to help tremendously, and another thank you to all involved here.

    1. I do agree that these forums like this are soooo needed. These predators belong in a horror movie not in the front room. I don’t think that many people have the “out of the box” type thinking that is required to comprehend that these monsters do exist until they are in a relationship with one.
      Everyone benefits!! We all gain knowledge because the predators like to try their best to catch more victims. Personally, I gain so much of my healing from helping others heal. It’s always good to hear that someone has a great awakening. I can still remember the time when my friend told me about the dysfunctional individuals I was dealing with and.even told me to do so research on narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder. WHAT A GREAT FEELING!

    2. ” I think, (and this blog touches on it), many of them, without knowing it, have themselves fallen prey to manipulation, lies, narcissism, other disturbed persons and warped mindsets, and simply do not know any other way to function.”

      Alan, do you mean like being brainwashed into an ideology? Like a cult, a sect or a hate group?

      1. Timothy, — Yes, that’s the term! Brainwashing! A lot of it I think has to do with intelligence/level of ignorance about the intentions of other people. Growing up, at least speaking for myself, trust levels can be sky-high, and we are more open (perhaps gullible) to the way other people function and control their worlds, in the media, in the workplace, on television, in our family units. The things/people/ideas we are attracted to begin to hold more sway, and if they turn out to be frauds in the end, it is so much harder to detach oneself and change course.

        I don’t mean to preach here, lol, I by no means am speaking with authority on these topics, simply my own experience. But to finally start understanding it all, begin putting my foot down, heal, and share what I am learning here is great!

        1. It sounds to me like you are embarrassed to have fallen victim to the evil. It is very easy to fall victim to the dark side especially if you are a good-natured individual. The most important thing is that you made it through and are trying to get the much needed healing. We are all healing here!!

      2. I don’t know, Carrie, it’s kinda hard to make accurate guesses from someone else’s background. We tend to see people similar to ourselves, especially if we’ve had a similar experience, for better and for worse.

        Does this mean we should also watch at whether someone’s coping or relating style(?) is basically aggressively motivated or submissive? Am I getting this right?

        1. No?

          For all I know, your guess could be right. On the other hand, many of us have some similar experiences and – maybe I went overboard in trying to be objective? – it’s easy to reach certain conclusions based on some similar experiences. Another person may or may not be similar.

          And the second paragraph – “Does this mean we should also watch at whether someone’s coping or relating style(?) is basically aggressively motivated or submissive? Am I getting this right?” – was me continuing Alan’s thoughts there on brainwashing.

          Shouldn’t have lumped those two in the same post. My bad.

          1. I can not even imagine what the individuals that were exposed to the intense brainwashing of Charles Manson. I do know however that a friend is always good to have in times like these.

          2. I can not imagine the severe case of PTSD a survivor of a cult would have. My ex worked in a survival school (POW camp) in the military and he gave my kids a huge case of complex PTSD.

          3. That’s horrendous!

            Such a creepy connection, too. Did your ex learn abuse tactics in the POW camp? If he did, that makes it even worse.

            I wish your children healing. While I know that trying to helpsomeone directly through a book may not do it near as well as professional help, it still sucks I can’t recommend any book. I’ve spotted many on Amazon(can’t say I would be in the same place myself or should I buy one just in case?). I do mention again Unlocking the Emotional Brain By Bruce Ecker, though I haven’t read that myself either. The matter may change, of course.

          4. He learned so many things in survival school. I know he was terrible then and still is. He fits the profile of a psychopath to a TEE!!

      3. Alan, Carrie,

        This reminds me of something I read some time ago. It’s about a cult leader Rajneesh(later known as Osho). He promised to release people of emotional repressions. Now ain’t that something I’d have liked times ago. This manipulator made screaming therapy a tool for manipulation!

        http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/rajneesh.html

        And that’s just one example.

        1. This would be very intense brainwashing. When I worked on the school bus one of the girls and her sister had been taken into a cult in India. Their mother had been indoctrinated by the cult and promised special treatment if she would bring the girls. The mother and father were divorced at the time. The girls suffered tremendous amounts of abuse. The father and step mother went to India and brought the girls back.

          1. Carrie, Timothy, —

            I did not interpret any of the replies following my comment on brainwashing as questioning or aggressive about what I wrote, just feedback! If there is one giant lesson I have learned/am learning (out of many), it is that criticism and feedback regarding where a person is coming from and how they cope with life is so valuable.

            I have a familiar member who used brainwashing on their children as a manipulation tactic. They were/are stubborn, throwing fits and tantrums (even physical things, like dishes), turning on the waterworks, etc. in response to any situation that they knew they were being called out. Actually, I lived with this person for three years, recently, and because they are much older than I am, I gave them every benefit of the doubt, helped out with finances, chauffeured them to and from, went to the grocery store, kept the apartment tidy (tried to lol), and was just there as a companion. Because I share immediate family ties, I don’t want to disrespect them here. The bottom line is I could not have survived (living in an expensive suburb and working two part-time jobs) where I was without the kind of situation I was in. But I knew my energy and resources were being drained. I guess I am a little embarrassed, not so much falling ‘victim’ to the situation, but staying in it for so long, kind of pretending everything was A-OK, and having it end not so well.

            There is a really good life coach on YouTube (under ‘SpartanLifeCoach’, which I believe is the name of the channel) that I stumbled upon who discusses how to heal and reel from the lingering emotional effects of complex PTSD. There are many, many factors involved. He also goes into detail about other personality disorders, like the differentiation between narcissists and those suffering from Asperger’s Syndrome (people ‘diagnosed’ as one or the other operate from two completely different vantage points, the narcissists being classified as malignant). Like this site, it’s also very eye-opening.

          2. Alan, I’m glad to hear that you got out of your very manipulative situation. It is really sad when people choose to manipulate their children and even their pets. Crying is a very effective form of manipulation. Most people interpret crying as meaning the individual as having a soul. Hahahaha……. I have come to find out in just the last few years that it can very easily mean quite the opposite. A talented actor-actress can do it very easily.
            I do like the videos on YouTube. I always look for lots of views. Facebook also has a sight about Recovering from Narcissistic Abuse that I really like.
            Keep up the good work!!

        2. So dreadful.

          Also some beliefs are indoctrinated and accepted in honest good will, however destructive actions they could lead to. This is important – very important – to keep in mind.

          Also about that Osho-cult leader -link, it’s just one of the many concerning cultic manipulation on the site. Timothy Conway’s site may be biased on Advaita Vedanta, but he also considers other faiths without prejudice and also articulates many great things about spirituality. One of the sites I recommend!

  12. Carrie, Alan, co.

    We had a discussion above and complex PTSD was mentioned and isn’t it good that it was mentioned?!

    Recommended books on PTSD and complex PTSD?

  13. Carrie, BTOV,

    Demonic, yes, that’s what I’ve felt seeing some people. I swear, you look at them and you get the “gah!” -feeling. It’s like they conquer with their mere presence. Can’t think of another word- It’s NUMINOUS!

    Yet with others I don’t get that feeling. I wanna get them out of my sight and hope they just go jump in a lake or something, they’re so appalling to be near, but the feeling’s not kinda the same.

    1. They all piss me off!! I can’t stand being around people who do not respect personal boundaries. The creepy feeling of some is noticeable right away and others are more annoying.

    2. Well said!

      Though, there’s something to it more than the creepy feeling. It’s that numinosity that’s even more weird.

      I know mind can do odd things, but I’ve seen dangerous people without having that feeling and I’ve had it when observing some people, who aren’t deadly, but definitely could cause needless trouble.

      1. Timothy, —

        I don’t know of any books off-hand on complex PTSD, but I threw the term into the Amazon search box, and many what looks like good titles came up, I’m sure there is a world of written information about it. The book ‘Emotional Abuse’ by last name Loring (she was my sociology professor) is pretty good, I happened upon it as I was tumbling down the evil rabbit hole, there is so much there that described/describes my situation, and I am sure many others, to a tee.

      2. Sorta hard to keep track of all convos here

        But it’s gotta be great reading something by someone you’ve personally known. 😀

  14. My younger sibling is non-empathetic with a border line personality disorder who has disrespected me and my husband in unforgivable circumstances. Before the final incident he was superficially charming to us in social gatherings, sang our praises to others when we weren’t around and we finally realized this was a manipulation tactic to make us look bad if we ever said anything bad about him. Covertly he would offer no eye contact, disregard us and make remarks under his breath.
    At the last family get together he accidentally let others see the real him. I later confronted him by letter, told him what we thought and explained that it was best that we no longer have contact with him. He responded to the letter with vile and vicious texts and I have never acknowledged them. We have witnessed him emotionally abuse people and we have called him on it. This last incident was witnessed by our older sibling and his wife and adult children. My sister-in-law confronted him on it only because it involved her family too. It doesn’t matter whatsoever that this younger sibling treated us like shit several times before this because from their perspective “it didn’t happen to us so….” Well now it did happen to them. Typically the dysfuntctional sibling did not take responsibility for his actions then went into hiding then claimed to his ailing mother after a 2.5 month absence that he can’t visit now because he is depressed and anxious. This man is ALWAYS a victim.
    My question is this. My married brother and his wife have tried to reconnect with this manipulative brother several times since the “incident” because she is a Christian and my brother has no balls. We won’t try and convince them they are better off without him because it will fall on deaf ears. What we can’t get past is their willingness to let someone back into their lives who has betrayed their trust and who’ve witnessed his treatment of me and my husband first hand. If he does come back into their lives they said they would just be more guarded. We have a hard time understanding where they are coming from. When do people draw the line and say enough already? My creepo brother has actually admitted to his Christian sister-in-law that he hates women. What are we missing here?

    1. It sound like he might be able to turn into a rapist. They are very volatile and it is always the woman’s fault she is raped. SHE IS STUPID FOR WALKING IN THE DARK ALLEY Or SHE WAS SMIRKING AT HIM etc…. I am not a psychologist so I am just throwing out some thoughts. It is so terrible that people turn a blind eye until it happens to them. When something major happens then people will rake notice. A psycho has no boundaries. He or she will ever turn on another psycho. Be very careful because things can turn very ugly, very quickly!! Like Joey gave the analogy of the three legged stool.

      1. Well maybe he can turn into a rapist but that isn’t what I was directing my concern about. We’ve often wondered what he does with his alone time.   I ‘ve described my trauma to my sister-in-law and my older sibling and their response has been “well it hasn’t happened to us so we can’t cut him off.”   I had a .long talk with my husband tonight about how I can’ t comprehend how my older brother and his wife can be so accepting of the emotional abuse our dysfunctional sibling has put our parents through let alone his estranged wife and daughter and me.  That alone is the flag that should make them want to back off. My husband’s opinion is:  my sister-in-law is a Christian so there is that dynamic going on and even though I think she is  naive I shouldn’t try and convince her of anything.  What I find disheartening is my older brother being so accepting of the fact that our dysfunctinal brother is an emotional abuser who is very manipulative and he has caused our parents untold heart ache and that seems to be something that can just be brushed aside, these parents I might add  have given generously throughout the years with never ending support. What is the motivation to stay attached is what I would like to ask my older sibling. My husband simply believes that he needs to be there for his brother and that’s it.  I guess it could really be as simple as that and I need to move on and not look back.

        1. Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom before they will do anything.I do know that you can not take on the whole family with no support. You need to think about what is best for you.

          1. Yes I know I have to find what works best for me and I think I have as recent as last evening. Since my older brother and his wife would welcome the dysfunctional one back with caution then I simply do not want to hear about if it happens. Their boundaries are way out of whack compared to mine and who am I to convince them to change.

          2. Thud kind of dysfunction is not easily explained and the fact that the predator does not even entertain the idea that he is anything less than perfect leaves no room for change. It is natural that people want to forgive and forget but these individuals make vindictive things happen again and again. It is always important that you forgive (for your sanity) but DC’S can’t be trusted again.
            I hope you find peace. Sometimes standing along is not easy but right.

  15. I will appreciate some comments on following.

    Does trying to reasonably argue with a character disturbed person feels like banging head on one ton slab of stainless steel reinforced by titanium, iridium, and other harder elements that are yet to be discovered by humans as well as aliens?

    One examples…

    Me> You threw that book at me. [Expecting acknowledgement, and later reasons behind such behavior]
    CD> You are supposed to discuss things with me. You promised the same in counseling session. And, now you are blaming me for everything that is wrong. If you think you are so perfect, why did you marry me who is seeking only bit of happiness in life. :sob:
    Me> All I was pointing out a specific example that…
    CD> :louder: You never listen. You are making things worse. No one can ever be happy with you.
    Me> :irritated: :louder: Listen! Why did you threw that book at me?
    CD> See now you are shouting. And, what book are you talking about? Why do you drag meaningless things from past, when we should be resolving our issues. I don’t think it is working. It is pointless. :exits the stage:
    CD> :behind the stage: Whenever you are ready to sit together and sort out our differences, let me know. I am ready for it.

    That ends another attempt the meaningful discussion.

    Do they really have such crooked perception of reality that spoken words are twisted out of their simple meaning? Do they play their game, even when facing divorce? Is separation and living in their delusional land, a preferred choice compared to simply seeing things as they are, introspect, and simply improve? Even when a simple and basic improvement that will go a long way in improving their own life?
    Mind you, my character disturbed partner has reasonably good career, and is capable of participating in debates on her area of expertise. It is just with me, any sane discussion is impossible.

    PS: Every now and then, I get sucked into the standard neurotic thinking giving benefit of doubt. I need to revise my notes and books again. Sorry. I had to vent my anger somewhere. And, comments section here looked like a nice place.

    1. And you did right to tell about it, Andy.

      That’s crazy-making, dodging the real, reasonable request, avoiding any meaningful discussion, like you say.

      Goes on to show she most probably knows, at least well enough, what she’s really doing. Can’t tell it from here, but if she really does have “crooked perception of reality”, it could be even worse.

      Says me, who have met people, who use “Now you’re blaming me?!” -maneuver to blame others themselves.

    2. Andy, I send you hugs because I know exactly how you feel. The DC feels that the only constructive discussion that they can have with their victim is the one where they come out with shining colors. The DC manages to turn anything around to be in their favor and therefore they can become the victim and the victim becomes the aggressor. They will continue to play these games even after a confrontation with possible divorce. After all they have used their exceptional manipulation to convince all mutual friends and family that YOU are the problem. The DC claims that she only wants a little bit of happiness but to her happiness is feeding off your soul. It is human nature for you to want to give her the benefit of the doubt once in a while because marriage is not a matter to be taken lightly. If there is a tiny glimpse of hope it is worth a shot. You need to really think about what is best for you and watch her emotions and reactions closely.
      I have been married to a couple of DC’S before. I gave them the benefit of the doubt too many time times. It became a joke for them to see how far they could push me. My first husband was just very manipulative. He had many addictions and really loved to be the center of attention. Well, I found out that he had been cheating for a while and when I questioned him he acted like it was my mental malfunction for even thinking that. He tried to get my friends in the sack and they told me. My second husband was a hardcore psychopath and the marriage was a joke from the beginning. I always gave him the benefit of the doubt. He used all kinds of manipulation on me. I finally realized that I was never going to be able to have a discussion with him. He was extremely tricky and was willing to go to marriage counseling because he was going to make sure the therapist understood how evil and manipulative I am. The psychologist could see through him right away. The psychologist could see that I was terrified of him and constantly walking on eggshells. I ended up going to a lawyer and having divorce papers drawn up without either of them knowing. I realized that things were never going to change and this was an act of pure frustration. Everyone that has found out the way I left each time and jumped to the assumption that I always run from confrontation. No, the truth was that I was finally thinking about what was best for me. If they have never tried to reason with a DC then they don’t know what an experience it is.
      I witnessed this argument just the other day with the narcissist and the significant other. The couple just got a central air conditioning system put in the house. The narcissist did not want to have the unit put in the house. Like all narcs, it is always about her and what she wants. She will not keep the doors and windows shut.
      Here is goes: SO- “I can feel warm air coming in from somewhere.”Narc just sits and stares at the computer.SO- “Our electric bill is going to be $500 damn dollars!”Narc- “I can leave the doors open in the morning because it’s cool!”IT’S VERY SELDOM COOL IN THE STATE. SO- “You just want to fight with someone.”Narc- “No! You just take a look at yourself and you will see that all you want to do is fight!”SO leaves the room shaking his head.Narcs never respect anyone or their boundaries. SO has to get upset before narc will ever listen.
      Sorry, kind of long, I know. I just want you to know that you are not alone in your frustration.

    3. Andy, in my experience the narcissistic/character disordered only wants to win – every discussion is a battle, and they will distort, minimize, go off on tangents, play the victim – anything at all not to concede any point. Dr. Simon outlines these and other tactics in his books.

      You are most definitely banging your head against a wall of titanium and other substances as yet undiscovered 🙂

      I’ve tried discussing my feelings with my brother, gave him examples of his behavior (complete with eye witnesses), and when he couldn’t deny it, due to said eyewitnesses, he clammed up and refused to speak further. When I pressed him on the issue, asking him if he thought that type of behavior was reasonable, he went into victim mode: “I feel like you’ve stabbed me in the stomach, I can’t believe this”, tears in his eyes, the whole bit.

      Fortunately because of everything I’ve learned about these characters, I realized that though he seemed contrite, he never actually apologized, never said he’d try to change, make amends, express regret for what I’VE been through – it was all about him.

      When or if you attempt another discussion with your spouse, you could try just repeating your initial question/comment. If she goes off on a tangent, don’t respond to it. Just repeat your question. I read an example in the book Overcoming Verbal Violence by Patricia Evans that one woman asked the same question 11 times before her husband finally gave her a straight answer.

      Is it worth it in the end? Only you can figure that out. These characters don’t often change. They don’t see the need to – it’s everyone else’s problem. Your emotional and mental health is more important that their games and manipulations.

      I wish you the best of luck and as much peace of mind as you can manage through this ordeal.

      There are incredible people on this forum, courageous, insightful and compassionate. I’ve learned so much and found support and excellent advice here. I’ve no doubt you will too.

      1. I always find your comments wonderful, GG. I came across a different kind of response when dealing with my narc the other day. She was addressing my son in a very unacceptable fashionable. Really what it boils down to is HE makes her feel inferior because he asks questions that she doesn’t even come close to understanding or even answering. It’s kind of funny to see her out witted by an 11 year old. This time she started her rude behavior and he looked like he was going to cry. I usually don’t say much when she is being rude to another adult but I couldn’t handle this and I looked at him and said, “I told you not even to talk to her.” She immediately replied that it was just a joke. IT WAS NOT A JOKE AND SHE ENJOYS HURTING PEOPLE. Well, we just gave her a look like she was just being rude. She has not spoken to me for three weeks. The narc was never expected to accept any responsibility when she was growing up so she would rather go without talking than apologizing and accepting responsibility. Hahahaha…. The DC’S don’t like any confrontation!!

        1. Oh goodness Carrie, the old “it’s just a joke” routine.

          That’s a cop-out response to not take responsibility for being rude and obnoxious.

          Good on you for speaking up about it.

          1. I have heard so many phrases to try to avoid responsibility. “I am so tired,” is so funny to me but one of her favorites. Sometimes I think that if I couldn’t share these things than I might go crazy!! I can remember when I was growing up she used to say, “It won’t matter what happens in a year.” This was just her special way of telling me not to make such a big deal when she ignores my personal boundaries.” Oh my goodness…… what a life

      2. A character disturbed hate “losing” much more than he/she loves “winning”. I probably need to stop my attempts to get her to concede. Every once in a while, I should just state the wrong done and why it was wrong and move on.

    4. Thanks everyone!

      I know that she knows what she is attempting.
      By now, she should know that I know what she is attempting.
      But, still…

      Doubt that came up, if she even knows that there will be nothing to fight for if she continues her way. Her conviction (and gaslighting attempts) does shake me every now and then. What makes her so confident and unafraid of consequences?
      And, so right, she is still fighting. And, she is masterful fighter and will fight till the end. Next time I probably will repeat the EXACT same question without any change… like a broken record. I am not going to budge unless she shows some signs of improvement. And, I think it is time that I start calling out her tactics too, just in case she still has some doubts. It is likely to turn into uglier battle of ascribing motives, but it is probably necessary now.

      Just like Carrie, I see my future, and do not mind serving a surprise divorce notice (at least she will stop complaining that I NEVER gave her any surprise). What anyone else says doesn’t concern me as long as there is conviction that I gave enough benefit of doubt, enough opportunities to come clean, and enough warnings on what is going to happen. There is a kid involved, and so is her rest of dysfunctional family. I can probably deal with her, but not her full army.
      Sometime I feel that she will probably kill me if she can get away clean. Maybe not right now, but when I stop earning. And, only thing that will protect me that time will be absence of any new fresh target that my old wife can latch on to, except maybe our own kid. Not a very happy future to look forward to, if things continue the way as they are right now.

      Thanks again everyone! As always, I can find nuggets in your comments. It helps to get different perspective.

      1. Hi Andy, Glad you are getting help here! I am sorry that there is a child involved. Divorcing a narc is tough but the child gets lots of injustice from the narcissist. The child can become the ‘fix’ for the evil one really fast. I had children each time I was divorced and it is crazy how the DC can manipulate things. If you give her surprise papers then she has less time to think of any more evil plans.
        I think that repeating things sounds good. I never had that much patience. I’m sorry that you have to deal with dysfunctional in-laws also. They will be sure to add their issues to the mix.
        Whatever you decide remember to take care of yourself so you can take care of the child.

        1. “remember to take care of yourself so you can take care of the child”.

          That is the exact reason how I am avoiding falling for tactics using child. If I had a chance to keep my sanity in my own house, I would stay on. Hopefully, playing a decent role model in house. But, outnumbered in the house, out-maneuvered among common friends, isolated away from any support, I have no choice but to go mad in long run. In that case staying on probably will make things worse than that just letting it go.
          I wish I had wised up few years back.

          1. I think the same thing often. We can’t beat ourselves up too much!! I can remember when my young son (2) would stand between us and push us apart yelling STOP. That was one of the biggest reasons I had to leave. His daddy could not stop being a bully and deal with his anger so I had to take matters into my own hands.
            We are taught to be “good” people at a young age. This sets us up to be victims. I have often thought of that. It’s a shame!!
            I feel your pain. I am out of that pain now but into a different kind. Hahahaha…. (oh well, that’s my life) Keep your head up and get a good lawyer!!

          2. It may be difficult to do but document everything, such as who, what where etc and time consuming…..but it may prove to be critical in your divorce in the event he said she said. The court will give credence to your notes. Just write the facts in this journal. I can’t express enough how this have prove critical especially if it becomes far worse than you ever anticipated. I know from personal experience.

          3. BTOV, fantastic idea!! I think that will be a great tool when she uses the child for leverage in her games. Being raised by a mommy narc is no fun and very damaging. Lots of personal experience!!

          4. Yes. Documentation is good idea. I do have some notes for major issues, but it will be good idea to do brain dump anyways. If not as proof for later use, then for just keeping my sanity in married life.
            I do plan to meet a lawyer pretty soon. A good one. One should not save few bucks on lawyer/doctors/surgeon. It is still a contingency plan, but I am yet to see any evidence of improvement. Better to start early on documentation/recording or any other homework that may be required.

            Thanks for your inputs!

          5. Sounds like a really good idea especially if you are to deal with dysfunctional in-laws also. When it comes to divorce the one who gets the first jump on things comes out smelling better. LOL

          6. I mean this, keep two journals if need be. One that you want to write all your personal feelings in to get some of that inner turmoil out. Two is the one you record only the facts and I mean nothing petty or personal, time, date, just the facts. Make sure this documentation cannot be found. Do Not and I can’t say this enough do not keep it on your computer. Computer records, Facebook, Emails can be subpoenaed.

            Be careful who you confide in as they can always turncoat on you. Stay away from his friends and relatives and if you decide to file for divorce try to practice no contact. I can’t emphasize this enough —- Put everything in writing and keep a copy. This will be very time consuming, just remember when you decide to leave all out war will be declared. Also, in some instances you can use a mediator to save money. Try to find a good therapist you can trust to pour your guts out to. Your attorney will charge you an arm and a leg and will keep the conflict going and so will the CD.

            Find out what your particular state laws are in property division. Do not give them any indication of what you plan to do. This is serious business when divorcing these kind of people. I know I went through it and am still dealing with it. The lawyers want you dependent on them and will tell you whatever you want to hear. Try to keep it as simple as possible. There are group meetings at the woman center and usually a legal advocate and a counselor that you can talk one on one with for support. Do not eliminate this resource as this is a great place for private support and it is free.

            The CD will stop at nothing to get what they want, they will say anything and the lies will flow and yes with the help of friends and family. Do not engage or respond. You do not have to defend yourself with them. Save it for court. The other thing to be prepared for is they can have a sudden change of heart and be and say anything to real you back in. In the end you will have to discern if their is anything that can be salvaged and how sick this individual is.

            Dr. Simons blog is an excellent resource for support and full of information and as you already know so many supportive kindred spirits that can share their experiences and wisdom.

            I hope this was of help to you and blessings

    1. I have thought the same things about Trump many times especially when he insults someone and then refuses to apologize. Even if he forces an apology, to save face, it is very insincere. People should definitely look into this further.

    2. GG, Thank you for posting this great article. I will be forwarding it to many. Personally, I don’t see anyone of substance and integrity to vote for, how very sad!

      1. It’s unfortunately indicative of the time we are living in, isn’t it? Politics is an excellent career choice for the narcissist and character disordered.

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