Culture and Character Impact Each Other

Culture and Character

Cultural values, norms, and practices heavily influence character formation. However, the opposite is also true. The way most folks are in character largely shapes and defines cultural norms. Culture and character have an intertwined and interdependent relationship. Moreover, they impact each other in some very dynamic ways.

Most traditional psychology paradigms developed in the Victorian era. The cultural climate of that time was horrendously repressive. Folks were generally well-behaved and well-mannered alright. But many were also nervous wrecks. Sadly, they sometimes even made themselves sick from excessive fear, guilt, and shame. In those times, folks could easily feel awful for simply being human.

We live in dramatically different times. Our cultural climate bears little resemblance to that of the Victorian era. Attitudes of entitlement, self-indulgence, and relativism permeate modern culture. These attitudes have become the new norm. Moreover, many traditionally character-shaping institutions have undergone dramatic changes. And as a result, folks have a harder time forging characters of integrity. Understandably, more character-impaired individuals now populate the culture. And they have “enabled” the erosion of principles once widely revered and promoted.

The Culture of Egocentrism and Entitlement

Too many folks grow up in a “me”- centered universe. So, they find it all-too-easy to think the world revolves around them. Moreover, they receive constant messages of entitlement. So, they find it hard to develop a healthy sense of obligation. This leads to unhealthy levels of self-focus and self-indulgence. And that’s how a culture of egocentrism and entitlement becomes entrenched.

Researchers are now telling us what our grandparents already knew. The antidote to entitlement is gratitude. Experience has taught me this, too. Grateful individuals naturally develop a sense of indebtedness. Moreover, folks who feel indebted more easily develop a sense of obligation. Such folks appreciate what they’ve been given in life. What’s more, they feel obligated to give something back. Grateful givers don’t wallow in a me-centered, entitled mindset. They concern themselves with others. They work to make a difference. Accordingly, they change culture for the better. They help make the world a better place.

I’ll be saying more about culture and character in the weeks to come. In addition, I’ll be talking more about gratitude. Gratitude can overcome attitudes of entitlement. And it can counter the character-impairing aspects of the current cultural climate.


Character Matters will again air live Sunday, Sept. 17 at 7 pm EDT.  Therefore, I can take calls at (501) 258-8326.

As always, my sincerest thanks for recommending my books and this blog to others.

107 thoughts on “Culture and Character Impact Each Other

  1. Twist of irony to this post Doc. I was just doing some writing about my last 2 experiences with the CDMNSP dark souls that predate on us. There is no other way to explain it because that is exactly what they do. Some of us will break completely, these people shatter our identity ruin our lives and reputations and we have to undertake much work to recover ourselves. I am now starting to come out of my second dark night of the soul. Soul searching is a big part of the recovery process. It becomes imperative to find out not so much as why they did that to us even though it is important, but the real question we must all ask ourselves is why did we allow this to happen. This of course is dependent our our situations – children have no choice in the matter. It is also very difficult when family are involved because we feel a false sense of obligation. Nobody is obliged to accept abuse – nobody and from anybody.

    My last dark night allowed me to see what I had allowed. It showed me my own weaknesses and blind spots in my own character and I was able to determine why I had allowed myself to be emotionally abused and what held me back from taking appropriate action at the time. I did know that something was terribly, terribly wrong but I could not quite put my finger on it at the time yet I allowed things to occur that should not have. I can’t really be manipulated, I detect an energetic anomaly and withdraw my own energy as a result. But that action despite it being very subtle and diplomatic pisses off the narc so they try harder to gain the upper hand. Result is having to defend ourselves again and again and again when we should not have to defend ourselves at all. Why should we have to defend ourselves against insanity? That is insane in and of itself.

    Knowledge is everything and so is being true to onself. I have now filled these gaps in my own nature. I discovered hidden beliefs about myself I would never have believed I had. I would never have gone there had it not been for my dark night. I realised that while I am not a Co-Dependent I was dependent on others approval in certain areas. I now understand I don’t need anothers’ approval to be who I am. Nor do I have to be diplomatic in my delivery. Why should I respect somebody or give somebody the benefit of the doubt who clearly has no concern for others or their needs? The answer is – nobody should.

    Notwithstanding, a beautiful metamorphosis occurred during that dark night of which I am eternally grateful. It has also brought me closer to God because I realise that during that time I had something greater than me with me. It could not have been any other way or I doubt I would have survived. I am a very strong woman but those compounded experiences nearly broke me, the betrayal was too much – there was something else there though that was beyond myself and that strength was what got me though. It is reminiscent of Footprints in the Sand. That has become my mantra.

    While I am not quite out of the woods yet but I am happier, much healthier and a much stronger person. I will never allow manipulators into my life again and those I identify I keep at arm’s length. My neural pathways are being reworked and I’m forging new ones that will prevent controllers from gaining access to my heart or soul. I will be who I was meant to be without needing the consent or approval of others. Manipulators beware – my radar is working with precision. If people don’t like the way I am, they can use the door at any time. I did not incarnate on this planet in order to live up to other people’s expectations. There is one entity that has authority over me and one only – that is God, so help me God.

    1. Hear hear Eudoxia! Beautiful.
      And it is God that gives us the courage to love again, and most of all
      to learn to love ourselves – minus the entitlement…

  2. Does anyone today – REALLY care about the human beings that we share this earth with ? Empaths – are drawn to and completely annihilated by sociopaths. There is ungodly amounts of divisiveness being perepetrated by our “leaders” and the media — Where on gods earth can one retreat — WHY do we all seem to hate one another so much ????

  3. I think you will find there a good many people out there who care Leslie. It is just we are outweighed and outnumbered by those who do not. If we make an individual choice and stop feeding into the hate machine it will eventually cave in on itself for lack of energy. It’s high time we stood up for what is right and good and stop allowing ourselves to be dragged down and into the dirt by those who stand for the opposite.

  4. Participating, being a member of a Narcissistic culture is like being ‘kissed’ by a vampire. There is a tendency to adapt to it, become more like it, through behaviour, patterns of thought etc..

    A retreat from society, with the idea that separation is a form of protection, is a form of defeat. To actively engage with others, in as loving manner as possible, while exercising caution, is the best way to

    There is no clear dividing line between ’empaths’ and CD’s except in the extremes. Most of us are arrayed somewhere on a spectrum, if for no other reason than we are products of the dominant culture.

  5. Eudoxia,

    Scratch a self described ’empath,’ and you’ll be surprised what you will find. In my own experience, I’ve found this type similar to vacuous wannabe Mystics who have a Jones about being egoless and never shut up about it!

  6. A clarification — people who loudly proclaim to be empaths, given any opportunity, seem to be chasing Narcissistic supply. I am thinking of moderators on forums whose behaviour is terrible, their actions and sentiments shallow, who claim to be ’empaths.’

    1. Lisa – there is a clear determining factor or rather a set of criteria to determine what makes an empath an empath aside from being able to put ourselves in another person’s shoes in order to ascertain how they would feel if this or that happened to them. Many claim to be empaths but are not – it is a facade. There are also many moderators out there on forums whose behavior identifies them for what they are – I realise this is going on also and is quite a big problem. This is why I consider this site a safe site. Due to prudent moderation.

      You have raised some very good points. The problem with the Vampire culture and the current education system not to mention main stream media is it is contributing to this vampire culture in a substantial way. Narcissism is actually encouraged by the current system and abuse is hushed up or rather not enough awareness of it is being promoted or encouraged. In my parents day, in particular child abuse and domestic violence was taboo to even discuss. This kept the lid on a rather nasty pot of filth including child abuse, child trafficking and rampant pedophilia.

      There is absolutely nothing wrong with anybody wishing to retreat from society that is up to the individual alone to determine. I can clearly see why people do not wish to engage in society. If a person wishes to withdraw from evil, noise, hum drum and just downright disrespectful and disgusting behaviour of others then good for them I say – wise move. I have partially done it myself. City lifestyle is not for me whatsoever. After 25 years of city commuting and career I’m done. While I have not totally removed myself from it nor become a hermit I could just as easily do so. I have no problem being in my own company and often it’s preferable but other times I need to socialise it’s just now I am particularly fussy about those I socialise with.

      There is a very clear line between CD and empaths. The line being CD have no empathy at all. Of all CD I’ve encountered not one of them have demonstrated even the slightest hint of empathy. Crocodile tears are not empathy. Feigned care and concern for others is not empathy. If you are talking about “the spectrum” then from what I ascertain it is the neuropaths (neurotics) who have both CD and empathic traits being somewhere in the middle notwithstanding Co-Dependents. The neurotics’ CD traits are not generally malignant and if behaviour is untoward to others the neurotic can and often will show contrition and alter their behaviour. Not the case with CD being fully pathological.

      HD Tudor gives a very interesting talk entitled When the Empath goes Supernova. What struck me and hit me right between the eyes is he is describing a process of which I have personally experienced and not all that long ago. I refer to this process as The Perculator Stage. The wounding is complete, the CD has devalued and discarded the victim and if that victim happens to be have a high degree of empathy something happens. A transformation occurs and the empath comes out of that stage a force to be reckoned with – well for CD anyway but they don’t swing to that side. They become a very empowered empathic being. This is not to say power as in narcissistic power as in control over others.

      Put it this way their awareness is now sharpened, they can detect even the most subtle forms of manipulative behaviour and they are able to make a clear choice. To disarm the manipulator, or squash it flat and I have been doing this of late. There are ways to deal with them without incurring world war on a personal scale. As the only thing in life we can control is ourselves, we in a position to determine what we allow in our personal space not to mention who. I think that is a good place to be in.

      Further even in my old days before I had my wake up pill I had both empathic and narc traits – once I went through my first dark night of the soul that all changed. It was not so that long ago the actual term empath didn’t mean anything to me other than a word. Now I see the clear difference between empaths, neurotics and CD and in a big way too.

  7. Thanks for your response, Eudox

    I can’t tolerate city life either, for a number of reasons. I find it emotionally too cold. I currently live in a small town of like minded people some of whom are hermits. And a few are mean spirited, suspicious Vegans who wouldn’t hurt a fly. Now people?? That’s another matter!

    Did you have a bad experience with a forum for P victims, survivors? It’s a very common occurrence. Many people do. I think that some of these mods come to adopt the same behavior as the P — a megalomania born out of hurt but also some aggression. There is a mob mentality to it that is surprising.

  8. Just feel the need to share this right now
    Each to take what meaning of relevance to them
    Others say things I think and feel so much better than I can!

    ‘There is no Good, there is no Bad
    These are the whims of mortal will
    That works me weal (well?), that I call good
    What harms and hurts I hold ill
    They change with place, they shift with race
    And, in the veriest span of time
    Each good was banned as Sin or Crime
    Each faith is false, each faith is true
    Truth is the shattered mirror strewn
    In myriad bits, while each believes
    His little bit the whole to own….
    Thy faith, why false? My faith, why true?
    Tis all the work of Mine,
    Only the foolish love of self
    Makes the Mine excel the Thine.’

    Haji Abdu l-Yezdi
    translated by Richard Burton

    now that’s beautiful too

  9. Yes, I had a bad experience with an online support forum for P survivors, as have many others apparently.

    I mentioned the problems with forums because they crystallize best the Vampiric model of a Narcissistic culture, to me. You would think that forums set up to inform people about the worst bullies among us would be able to identify it in their own natures and then further work to figure out why it was happening…but no.

    I don’t think (as some people do) that these moderators are P’s themselves but they are very dramatic types, plus they have been hurt badly by aggressive Narcissists or P’s. Their response to being abused is to adopt an aggressive stance towards the world, in general, rather than a cautious assertive approach. And they do seem to enjoy the sensation of the hunt. Find ‘stealth P’s’ on the forum, and obliterate them. Whooopeeee!

  10. Lisa

    I’ve heard it’s quite a big problem. It’s also concerning that people who are in desperate need of help and support are being abused by these freaks when it’s the last thing in the world they need at the time. I did try to get into Jackson Mackenzie’s blog but they are not taking any new registrations. That’s also worrying – a site people think they can go to for advice and support is closed to new comers. Melanie Tonia Evan’s blog is only open to those who buy her course.

    I can’t for the life of me remember what I was searching on when I found this blog. This is the first spot I landed on and I’ve stayed here for a reason. I’ve had A Class support here and have encountered little trouble. It’s not hard to sniff out a stealth CDMNSP – after all they are fully pathological and putting the brakes on their manipulative and toxic behavior is not an option that is available to them. If the moderators are as you say they are Lisa and I don’t doubt it for a minute, then they are still in their wounding. This is something we all have to deal honestly and deeply with. Yet there will most certainly be others who are not and who are CD there to cyber stalk and obtain supply anyway they can.

    What they hate above all else is authenticity and genuine people being happy. My my don’t they loath that! The best form of revenge (which is always a dish served cold) is to be totally authentic and happy. That will deeply torment them LOL sick aren’t they??

    It’s actually what I did yesterday, I went to the tavern for lunch with 3 others and we were all having a great time and the table next to ours were two toxic types sitting there in their own putrifescence. Their entire conversation consisted of whining anc complaining with the odd little digs thrown our way on the side, aimed at someone talking LOL honestly they are truly pathetic. They seriously could not stand seeing us happy. They identify themselves because they just can’t keep their festering mouths shut.

  11. Hey Guys

    This is from HG Tudor. I wont put the first half in because we all know what they do. No need to revisit that – he’s stock standard Spath can’t expect decent behavior from them now can we. I am posting this because I think he’s giving exceptionally good advice. After all he is one.

    Start transcript

    “We give the impression that we are always winning and thus that we are always getting away with it. But are we? How can you deal with this apparent state of affairs which only serves to upset you, frustrate you and anger you? Turning to each of the above points in turn.

    Understand this is the way that we are. There is nothing you can do about it and since this is the way we are; it is not your fault. We have to do this. You do not. Who is the winner now?
    The fact we have no conscience or sense of remorse is just how we are. Again you cannot affect that. Do not waste your time and energy appealing to something that is not there.
    We regard ourselves as unaccountable. That is our outlook. Does that mean that we are right about that? From your perspective we are not. You ought to content yourself with your perspective. Do not think that you can do anything to change our perspective. Leave us to it and maintain your own perspective and stand by it.
    Our sense of entitlement is based on our perspective once again. You do not have to accept that.
    The fact that we entrap someone else should come as no surprise to you. Remind yourself that the basis we ensnared you is exactly the basis on which they have been ensnared. We have not “won” the heart of that person fairly. We have done so through deceit. We have cheated in order to create the appearance of winning.
    Those who form the façade have been subjected to our charm and lies for a significant period of time, on the whole. You are unlikely to be able to change their views and certainly not if you appear frazzled and hysterical. Why do you need those people to know the truth? You do not. Perhaps in time you will be able to set it out for them and let them reach their own conclusion but if they remain ensconced in our illusion that is a matter for them and is not your concern. You got out.
    The deletion may feel harsh. Again it is our methodology and there is no need to trouble yourself with it. Instead, you ought to be focused on deleting us from your life.
    Bide your time, acquire the evidence and present it when the dust has settled. We took you by surprise when we seduced you, we came out of nowhere. If you have a desire to see us held to account by the powers that be, wait and present the best evidence you have in a rational fashion and leave the rest to the relevant authority. If it works, you can celebrate. If we wriggle out of responsibility do not be dismayed, just regard it as further confirmation of just how easy it is for people to be conned by our kind and be thankful you now know about it and you are moving on.
    You have finally understood that we dragged you into an illusion. All that we are doing is maintaining that illusion to the rest of the world. It is not your role to keep applying a pin to burst that illusion. Other people must work it out for themselves. Remember that what we are showing the world is just more of the illusion and you know now the truth.
    It is not your position to exact retribution at this stage. You must look to yourself and to your own defences. If revenge is to be applied, it must come later and in accordance with the methodology which works which I have set out elsewhere otherwise it will fail. You may draw greater satisfaction from progressing your own life, rather than dwelling on “getting even” because exhibiting your contentment without us, when we do eventually consider you and notice, irritates us considerably. Even worse is when you ignore us.

    It is evident that we do move on without concerns and therefore give the appearance of always winning and always getting away with it.

    The key for you to remember is this.

    It is an appearance.”

    END. Nice bed time story??? Just thought I’d share.

    1. Eudox
      Thanks for the read. It validates my perspective, which is don’t waste precious time and energy on the CD if you have hopes they will change.

      1. Exactly Lucy – no point, they won’t change and you can’t make them see a perspective they never will. It’s like trying to get water from a dry well.

        Educated guess on P = psychopath.

        In reality all the Cluster B disordered people are psychopaths. I don’t know where Psychopath sits in the DSM5 but in the DSM 4TR it got a one paragraph mention under Antisocial PD. It does not have it’s own diagnostic criteria neither does Sociopath. If you really think about it, all Cluster Bs are collectively psychopaths, they just share different comorbidities. BTOV mentioned somewhere in some post a while back that Cluster A can bleed over into Cluster B – I am tending to agree with her on that point. I’m sure the old guy I look after is a Schizoid/Narcissist.

        1. I meant to add that I am beginning to take the opinion that vulnerable narcs share comorbidities with other Clusters – it’s what makes them vulnerable, however, they still have solid narc strategies, although not as bold. They can also have some degree of empathy even though it is barely noticeable.

          1. Eudox, Lucy, Joey
            agree with much of your insight into the CD. However, never underestimate the anomalies in the CD. The most grandiose can share comordities with other clusters. This is where I agree on there being a lesser, medium and greater narc, and then there are the absolute evil narc. This is all a new science and many disagreements of terminology , traits, unveiling, growth, tactics, views perceptions, birth, parenting, nurturing, etc., infinitude reasons for the CD and ultimately the enabling of this sick behavior can enthrall us to make poor decisions in dealing with these CD individuals.

            I will say I respect your insight into this sickness. I struggle with the heart tugging to rescue and help, which is the worst position possible to take for all, in that, kudos, to your strength and also to you Lucy, you fought one hell of a good battle.

            Lucy you are indeed an inspiration to all, above all to me. If you can pull yourself up considering what you went through, so can I.

            Lucy, thank you, for being such a stoic role model and courageous honorable person, remaining faithful to principles and integrity. This wold is lacking in people with your conscientiousness of honesty and decency. From me to you, may you now be the best you can be and find the joy and happiness you deserve.

            (PS. Joey, I have still been thinking of my response to you, I have gone through that encounter I needed to experience in order to give you a forthcoming reply.)

            Happiness, peace, love and hope in this sick world remains in our grasp.
            Hugs and blessings to all

        2. Generally speaking, I do think you’re right. I think it is the narcissism at it’s very core. The question is to what degree is it that they are like this. The ones who lack any compassion (for someone other than themselves) are the ones who scare me. Truly. I feel sorry for them, but I know my own stuff is all I can do anything about. I have compassion for the kid they were when things went so badly that they were scarred to the point they are-I think to some extent (***Until certain lines are crossed), that God has compassion for what made them this way. It is up to the individual as to how much compassion He will continue to have.

          Limits, folks.

  12. None of this is a stretch, because egocentric, the term, I have read since I was a small kid, that is what they taught us in social studies, I remember that-and it’s been about 35 years. The problem is that is something that can either evolve or morph into something worse-believing that you are the center of the universe, or one in which you can also unlearn the bad stuff, which I think in some, when there are genetics that do not include NPD, this is the advantage of it.

    When I look at my mother’s side of the family, her sisters married men (except the youngest, I think, I barely know him though) who were exactly like their father, who was oh, wow, what he did was worse. But their all that way, I really feel bad for them.

    One inevitable that figures into this, when you live like that, and is the type of narc that does not change, they will die alone. That is one of the worst things I can think of.

  13. Under the weather right now or would respond more at length. A ‘P’ is a psychopath, Lucy.

    Eudoxia — the most popular forum for P’s is closed to new registration now but continue to do their ‘healing’ work through Facebook and on their closed site.

    It’s possible the administrator found it impossible to control the hysterical/dramatic impulses of some of the moderators. He may have been worried that he would attract lawsuits due to the rumoured mis-handling of confidential identifying information, by the mods.

    1. Lisa

      It is possible but unlikely. I’ve read Psychopathfree twice now. I have no doubt whatsoever that Jackson Mackenzie would be able to identify a CD moderator from a non CD moderator and if one did slip through the cracks (which would be highly unlikely) they’d be detected rapidly and removed expediently. It is not hard to detect CD even online and I doubt one would get past Mackenzie. People like Mackenzie and others have a zero tolerance rule for abusers.

      Have you read Psychopathfree? It’s a damn good book and I regret not purchasing it much sooner. When they disabled new registrations they gave a list of other sites and blogs. I believe they closed the new registrations down because of the heavy volume of traffic and it was becoming somewhat challenging to manage. I believe this decision would have caused him a great deal of consternation and would not have been made lightly by any means. I’m looking forward to his new book.

      Notwithstanding I have heard there are sites out there that are run by CD specifically to attract victims for supply extraction. How accurate that is I don’t know suffice it to say I would not doubt it. However, I don’t think anybody here would fall for such wolves in sheep’s clothing in all honesty.

  14. You’ve all certainly have done an enormous amount of work studying CDs. How I came to this site was through another site (cannot remember the name) that mentioned Dr. Simon’s site. I was lucky to stumble onto this one and not have to have bad experiences in others.
    My knowledge of the CD is through being married to one long term, and gleaning knowledge from Dr. Simon’s articles and commenters.
    I am so thankful to have had the privilege of others sharing their stories and lessons learned. It validates the craziness that I’ve lived through. I hope I’ve helped others as well. My comments are not in depth. My style is I go right to the bulls eye and bam make my statement.
    I feel I’ve sorted out my traumatic experiences of being married to the CD and now am on the healing path.
    Divorce is final. I lost my ass money-wise. I Am easing into acceptance that the jackass will get half my pension (unless he dies before I retire). Now I know what my future is – now at fruitful as I’d planned on, but it’s jackass-free!
    As of this week I feel my happy self coming back. I do not even have words of the tremendous weight of divorcing that CD carried, along with the exorbitant attorney fees accruing as jackass filed petition after petition (didn’t cost him anything – pro se). The stress and anxiety became almost unbearable. What it did to my mind, spirit and body will take awhile to heal. BUT – it’s worth the work of leaving a bad person. You have to get away from them, somehow. You have to do it.
    If I can do it so can you all. This man was a disbarred attorney, what I’d call grandiose narc. A hateful man with many addictions.
    But I did it.

    1. Lucy,

      You went through the mill and the wringer at the same time. You have to have a will of steel to withstand that. It’s tough going and having to endure going through a divorce would be pure hell – it’s all well and good to advise NC but something that’s impossible as it was in your case. You are fortunate that you maintained your grip on sanity. Mine would have slipped countless times over I can tell you. When I realised the vipers’ nest I was in I was out of there so fast you couldn’t see me for dust.

      The real pain and damage is incurred before we come to terms with what these monsters actually are. How many times we give them the benefit of the doubt by questioning our own sanity is the real crime. That they knowingly do this without conscience and remorse shows them up for the ugly piles of filth they are.

      I was blessed in that way to have many varied experiences with them in many different relationships that slowly allowed me to see the hidiousness of their behavior over time vs one for an extended period of time and they all use the same strategies. My sojourns with these beasts was low in duration but high on impact and damage sustained. I had to do more research into their pathology – it was imperative for me. I’m sure you know the early warning signs by now Lucy to see one coming a mile off. It’s all you need – the ability to recognise them.

  15. The good part for me is my recovery. CDs don’t get the spiritual side. Or rigorous honesty. It is how I am different. And how I can get better. And set myself free by walking away.

    1. JC,

      Well said. Above all truth and honesty and who presides over us and is our spirituality with God. I am glad you have found the way. Tedious and difficult, however, the only Way. Once we walk away, NC, we must adhere to this many times, it is a difficult task to heal and to travel the journey of knowing our true selves, with brutal honesty and kind lovingess.

      Welcome, JC, it will indeed be an immense reward to see you grow and become you. Easier said than done, I must listen to my own advice.

    2. I honestly don’t think one can recover while still involved heavily with a CD. It’s like you constantly get punched, over and over again. You take a beating, and when you start to recover from it, bam, they hit you again. You lose your strength and become ill and weakened. That’s why you must get out before you’re beaten so badly you can no longer fight.
      If one is still involved with the CD and wants out and is working a plan of escape, one can survive it without losing one’s self, spirit and health, because there is that goal and reward at the end.
      You must have a plan. You must get away. If you can go NC, do it. If you cannot fully, then you must know how the CD thinks, be a step ahead at all times, and have as little contact as possible.
      I sure did learn how to deal with the CD – through much trial and error. But I became effective at it. And when I did have that last encounter, during the deposition, where he deposed me (think of that – the husband was pro se and questioned me at the depo) I remained strong and on guard and sharp. I don’t think he recognized who I’d become. No longer his sweet trusting naïve wife – far from it. I was onto him and he knew it. So I guess I did get my last words with him, in a somewhat controlled setting. Glad I did.

      1. Lucy,

        So very true, we need time away to find ourselves again and regroup.
        Words of wisdom from the experienced, yes, we recover and BAM!!!! the scary part is, the next time we may never recover enough to get out………

        For all who read this post, please heed Lucy’s warning, it might be your saving grace to live on or fade into the Never Ever Land of the CD’s wasteland of human debrie. In essence “Till Death Do Us Part.”

        An excellent post from an experienced survivor.

        1. BTOV

          What next time! You jest surely??? If there is one person on this forum who can recognise them quicker it will be you. You’ve had more than any single one of us here combined and then some!

          Experienced survivor is great tag indeed. I for one will never get lured into their honey pot again. I’m way to sensitive now to not detect and name a strategy of theirs anytime I see one. There are indeed signs because let’s face it, they are addicts they can’t stop and they can’t adjust their behavior – they give themselves away. They don’t have the benefit of free will choice available to them being fully pathological creatures.

          The most important resource required for healing and dealing with these vampiric parasites is a solid safe house which is right here. Raises a toast to all my fellow seasoned ticket holders who helped restore my sanity when it was slipping through my fingers and then some!

          Cheers guys!

      1. It feels more than grand it feels exquisite!

        I saw a dead Brown Snake (highly venomous and aggressive) on the side of the road coming home yesterday – it would have tried biting the car that ran over it. It died with its mouth open hissing no doubt and I immediately thought of CDs the world over. I thought every dog has it’s day.

  16. Eudoxia,

    I have not named any particular interactive forum as most of them are beset with the problems I have described, so it’s not necessary to single one out of many.

    Dr. Simon has described very well our Narcissistic culture and has also explained how much of CD behaviour is aggressive in nature, not fear based. This is hugely helpful to a great many victims who have been using the wrong therapeutic model in the effort to understand these individuals.

    I feel the basic failing of many online support groups is they encourage victims and survivors to believe that evil is ALL AROUND them, all of the time. This is a grosse exaggeration and does nothing to help the victim. It is dramatic, hysterical and encourages witch hunts.

    It is bad enough to have to navigate through a society that is Narcissistic without the added burden of ‘healers’ telling us it is much worse than it actually is.

    There are so many people who have become self centred because of the culture. They are the walking wounded, all around us — emotionally beaten and abused. Their actions may at times appear to be CD. But how often, when we have felt unloved and in pain have we, too, appeared to be cluster B — even if only momentarily? These people need an extended hand, not a slap in the face.

    A rush to judgement, after being abused, has us labelling others, prejudging them or seeing them through a morbidly dark lens. Nobody should encourage this attitude in victims/survivors of CD’s who may have mild PTSD — particularly forums designed to help them.

    I am in NO WAY describing anyone on this blog and their relationship with actual psychopaths and cd’s. This is about how we relate, in a general way, to the world, POST trauma.
    I have been through several years of therapy for PTSD and feel it is most important to restore trust in others while exercising caution.

    But, I totally get, at the same time, how hard it is to maintain basic trust in our fellow man and have been moved by all the examples you have given. It’s very very tough. We are living in a very self centered world.

  17. Lisa

    As BTOV mentioned earlier there are many factors involved as to how CD are created and I totally agree with her summation. Being self centered doesn’t turn one into a CD. However all CD are totally self centered.

    Trust is something that is earned, it shouldn’t be granted automatically. Quite frankly people who are in recovery from narc abuse do need to be very wary. They are perfectly ripe for narcissistic predation and I know up front close and personal because it happened to me. They are like sharks to blood.

    I don’t know about these sites you are referring to. I know I have not personally witnessed any activity you mention on narc abuse sites I’ve landed on not that I’ve been to too many. I have not noticed any of them that are “beset” with problems you are alluding to. The reason I mentioned this type of thing occuring was because it was mentioned to me by HD Tudor during my consult with him. The question was specifically in regard to narcissistic supply and he answered it. I have never posted on Tudor’s site but I’ve seen the comments section on many of his articles and OMG you should see how these people fawn all over him! Now that’s hysterical!

    Anytime there is trouble anywhere on any interactive sites it will be caused by mentally ill people or at the very least emotionally stunted people. That’s generally when moderators become involved and make a call in accordance with the level of disturbance so far in my experience.

    People who have been abused by CD become very prudent and discerning because they value their life. If they are over cautious then they have every reason to be. There are certain signs and red flags that make people questionable to say the least. It would be a very foolish person, who after abuse, does not heed the warning signs. Once bitten twice shy etc.

    The absolute first thing I would warn others about particularly if they are fresh out of a relationship with a CD and still in recovery mode would be to advise them to be very wary of anybody new they meet or encounter and who shows an unusual amount of interest in them. This is neither dramatic or hysterical but very sound, practical advice. Narcissists can sniff out wounded and injured people – like moths to a flame.

    Every single person who has come out or coming out of this type of abuse will heal in their own time, they will learn to trust in their own time and on their own terms. Each one of us will make our own way in the world and come to terms with things as we go along. If abuse victims and survivors want to see monsters everywhere they are perfectly entitled to do so if that is what it takes for them to feel safe. It’s better to be safe than sorry that’s for sure. Also, nobody at even the best of times relates to the world in the same way as others it depends on each persons individual paradigm. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure – there is no one size fits all here.

    In regard to your comment about I’m sure we’ve all appeared to be CD etc. I have only one thing to say to that – if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s a duck. If a person appears to be CD chances are quite good they probably are.

  18. Eudoxia

    So let me try to understand here. You think approaching the world with deep suspicion, rather than caution, post trauma, is just one of the many ways people can ‘heal?’

    I see that as a distortion of reality that is often unavoidable for those fresh out of an abusive situation and something they have to work on if they are to return to health and happiness.

    I would caution those who love stirring pots and the excitement of the chase and a ‘spot the psychopath’ attitude to take a few steps back and review their remarks and wonder how on earth they are going to actually help others heal.
    And as far as those who can come across as CD due to the self centeredness that accompanies extreme stress, illness, fatigue–this is a universal. People of all kinds can ‘lose their sh** on occasion and it is well known that these states can suspend feeling of empathy, temporarily.
    Being unduly suspicious that we are surrounded by evil, essentially, would have us miss opportunities to be compassionate rather than hostile to those in distress.

    We DO live in a culture that rewards Narcissism and it is pretty freaky. But, it doesn’t mean we are surrounded by irretrievable evil. Most people are not CD and after we sort through the pain and confusion of betrayal, grief and humiliation that becomes more clear. The CD’s I have dealt with are quite profoundly different than anyone else I have ever known.

    1. LOL that’s hillarious – sorry but it is.

      Go back and read your own post again Lisa. Please pay attention to the first 3 paragraphs. Lisa you can’t define another person’s reality for them but sure you can try. There is name for that. I am very capable of defining my own reality thank you and I accept your faulty perception of me on all three counts.

      Further healing for those who have been traumatised by emotional abuse does not fit into a one size fits all box. The last time I looked there was no Diagnostic and Statistics Manual of Emotional Trauma Processing.

      All people don’t act like you – assuming the benchmark you provide is based on how you reacted as a result of a relationship with a psychopath. We are not all the same Lisa and a unilateral approach doesn’t work.

      As for me I am a highly sensitive person with highly developed perception and intuition. I am keenly aware of most people’s emotions and how they feel towards me. I am grateful I can detect this, not all people can of which I am also fully aware. That is what empathy does. Notwithstanding when in trauma that empathy does retreat somewhat (I will agree on that point) HOWEVER it does not necessarily make a person hostile or suspicious (it can but that can’t be applied generally) nor did it make me temporarily CD. It is dependent on the person and their personal coping mechanisms. I can not speak for others.

      There has been a correlation made that appears to connect Dysregulation of the HPA Axis to CPTSD and Borderline PD and in the cases of emotional trauma processing it stands to reason a person may appear to be temporarily Borderline and I personally think serious attention should be given to this hypothesis. Not all that untoward or “out there” however it was not applicable to me personally. Notwithstanding more research needs to be applied as it is relatively new. Sure I “lost my shit” once but did not take other’s out in the process nor inflict damage on anybody else.

      There are stages of grief that apply Universaly that a person will naturally go though, how they process their own stages, particularly the anger stage, is as unique as the individual is. Not everybody becomes hostile toward others, that’s one hell of a sweeping statement. Anger can be repressed, it can be blasted out, it can be transferred into a voodoo doll and/or managed healthily. I prefer the voodoo doll personally and NO that does not make me a witch LOL. It is simply transferring the betrayal anger into an object. Fair enough as I see it.

      Further being suspicious is not within my nature. Suspicious people are generally suspicious people – high anxiety, stressed out people who have to maintain rules and regulations in order to feel safe. I am not one of them. It is generally applicable to those who don’t trust in their own intuition or inner guidance. They tend to cast aspersions onto others due to their own suspicious natures. That is of course within the realm of my experience having been on the receiving end of many of their aspersions. Should one be subject to CD abuse then by virtue of their hostility and suspicious nature it stands to reason their suspicion toward others would become exacerbated. Not being one of them I truly can’t say that’s just my opinion.

      If a person is not sending out “bad vibes” there is not much to be suspicious of as far as I see it. I am the captain of my own soul, I will determine how I am in the world and I trust my own perception of reality I need not have it defined for me. I’ll leave that to those who are not self aware or are disconnected from their own inner guidance.

      Here is my personal benchmark or a KPI (key performance indicator) as it’s known in the corporate world. I personally prefer Fromm’s criteria for necrophilic and biophlic people as follows:

      Erich Fromm was acutely sensitive to this fact when he broadened the definition of necrophilia to include the desire of certain people to control others-to make them controllable, to foster their dependency, to discourage their capacity to think for themselves, to diminish their unpredectibility and originalty, to keep them in line. Distinguishing it from a “biophilic” person, one who appreciates and fosters the variety of life forms and the uniqueness of the individual, he demonstrated a “necrophilic character type,” whose aim it is to avoid the inconvenience of life by transforming others into obedient automatons, robbing them of their humanity.

      Evil then, for the moment, is the force, residing either inside or outside of human beings, that seeks to kill life or liveliness. And goodness is its opposite. Goodness is that which promotes life and liveliness.”
      ― M. Scott Peck, People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil

      EVIL is the reverse of LIVE. Being acutely able to determine a person’s orientation along with my own inner knowing will determine how I handle them in matters proceeding forward. Simple really. Not my problem if people are unable to make their own determination in this regard. I’ll leave that to them. I have no right to determine their own strategies.

      Have a great week-end everybody – I’m off to the local tavern tonight to hang out with some biophiles!!!!!!

  19. Personally, I don’t believe I encounter many CDs, or maybe I don’t put much time into meeting someone I’m disinterested in to figure out they are CD. At my workplace there are plenty of narcs, but I don’t have to be heavily involved with them.
    I do have faith in myself that I won’t get mixed up with a character disordered person again, not a grandiose narc for sure. I don’t trust people like I used to, and never should have in the first place, till they rightfully earned it.

  20. Lucy,

    I have a general faith in humanity that has not altered too much since I was targeted by an honest to God psychopath. But when it comes to romantic relationships, I exercise Eudoxia style caution.

    And credit where it’s due here, I am not working in a competitive corporate environment, so naturally I am not as exposed.

      1. Lucy,

        You do, I was literally surrounded by them in corporate but there are ways to navigate through those shark infested waters. I was good at dealing with them in the corporate world, there are strategies. If you allow them to think they are winning and have the upper hand they are fine. Largely because I was not emotionally attached to them I was able to work with them in the most constructive non damaging matter. If you take them head on – like I learned NOT TO DO after many trials and tribulations you will be able to swim through without being eaten alive. I would encourage anybody though who had a CD boss to immediately look for another job because that relationship never ends well – unless of course you have extremely low self esteem, are happy to be regularly throw under a bus and are quite happy to be an emotional kicking bag for a deranged lunatic!

        1. Eudox,
          You certainly learn what not to do. They become like a wolverine, so fierce and relentless. Best to avoid than confront, that’s for sure.

          1. Do you what. I learned the hard way too you better believe it LOL.

            It is quite simple though, just let them think they have the upper hand. What not to do:
            Walk straight into their office and say Hey Bob
            “I’ll have that schedule on your desk by 10am tomorrow”
            What do do:
            Stand outside politely knock on the door and say excuse me Bob have you got a minute?
            “What is the latest you’d like me to get that schedule in for review for sign off?”

            When you have somebody who will take very opportunity to go into confrontation it’s best just to give them the win first! LOL It makes life a whole lot easier. If you want a peaceful existence you just have to “suck it up” Then run as soon as you have another job :-

  21. To me Narscissist “means Control”. It is to me and always has been about control.
    Ther are many other aspects but, Control is the one we have painfully had to deal with.

    1. Control and positioning. You know what I noticed right off when I left the SB? I no longer had to “defend” myself from his smart aleck and sarcastic comments and accusations of bad intentions on my part. It’s not normal to constantly have to defend oneself. I watch my daughter now doing it. I remind her it’s not normal to have to live like that. For now she’s financially dependent on him so having to tolerate the abuse. It’s so sad.

      1. Lucy

        Children or partners of long term CD are likely to inadvertently pick up some of their manipulative habits. This is not to say they are themselves CD but the behavior of the narcs rubs off. Keep on her case Lucy, it sounds like you’ve got the right strategy and don’t let up. I’ve been on the old narc’s case here he’s a vulnerable narc with Schitzoid comorbidity. After two years he’s coming good, well his behavior has been modified. He still talks drivling shit but I just say something like. I don’t talk about my nonsense so I’m not going to listen to your nonsense that you think makes sense. Sometimes thoughts, should just stay as thoughts and not spoken. How about that? It’s a lot easier though when you don’t have an emotional attachment to them.

        1. sorry Lucy I should have used quotation marks I shall correct

          “I don’t talk about my nonsense so I’m not going to listen to your nonsense that you think makes sense. Sometimes thoughts, should just stay as thoughts and not spoken. How about that?”

          Just in case! lol

        1. That’s fantastic Joey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          I’ve just made a batch of Cornish Pasties in your honour! never done the before so I hope they taste good :- CNC controls sounds like a control that is actually interesting and worthwhile -wink-

          Good on you Joey – you will move ahead in leaps and bounds now!

        2. Joey,
          CNC? You mean computer programmed cutting & shaping.
          If yes, then it is pretty interesting job. I must say you are doing very well! 🙂

          1. BTOV,

            I am good. No specific reason for silence. I am following most if not all posts here. Thanks for asking. 🙂

  22. Eudoxia,

    I am not sure what “defining someone else’s reality,” means. You went on and said, “there’s a name for that.”

    If your statement means that I am character disordered for suggesting survivors avoid seeing all subsequent interactions through a dark distorting lens, then you are correct, by your own definition.

    If disagreeing with you earns a person the label of CD, you have proven the point I have been trying to make here.

  23. Ugghhh,

    I had a passive aggressive boyfriend in my thirties. Horrible. What a nightmare trying to communicate! Not as bad as being with a psychopath or a malignant Narcissist but possibly more confusing. And it is always about doing exactly what they want to do while trying to be ‘helpful.’

    He had ME go to a psychiatrist for ‘anger issues.’ And get this, he phoned the guy and filled him in on my ‘rage issues’. The doctor should have lost his license for discussing me with him. Passive aggressive guy was not his client.

    I WAS enraged. He had me so confused I didn’t know what way was up or down anymore.

    What snapped me out of the confusion was watching how he behaved with other people. Same weird weasley stuff. Had to be in control.

  24. Lucy,

    Passive aggressive guy and alcoholic guy BOTH had me on the defensive, constantly. Daily life was a fight to maintain my sanity while trying to exercise logic in an atmosphere of irrational self interest and or addiction.

    When I left both of them I couldn’t believe the weight off. I left with nothing. On both ocassions, I was in poverty and dealing with physical illness. It was really scary but still better than attempting to deal with clowns whose only concerns are for themselves.

    The psychopath was a whole different ball game. He was a major league mind f***. A real pro. I am still amazed at how adept this kind is at concealing their venal nature for so long.

    1. LisaO
      I know what you mean. Trying tonexplai logic, I’m self defense, to a CD who wants to put you on the defense because of his own bad behavior, is maddening. And it became an every day occurrence.
      A close friend of mine dated and hurriedly married a true psychopath. She. We talk of him I get chills up my arms. She got out quickly within the first year, because her very life was at stake.
      I cannot label people I don’t k ow well as CD or mother, but I do k ow when I sense something is off and toxic to disengage and not waste my precious time deing with the shit And shit it is.

  25. Lucy,

    I find that the signature covert aggressive manipulation to gain control by throwing people off just a little, socially, are jocular comment that have little shards of glass in them. Snide comments are the stock in trade of manipulators. Then they try to convince you they were, just kidding or that you are ‘overly sensitive,’ if they are confronted.

  26. Lucy,

    I very nearly suffered the same fate as your friend. The P who targeted me was so malevolent and cruel, God knows what he would have done to me had he gotten his hooks further into me. He had a sadistic impulse that he concealed, for the most part, right until the end. Sheer mental torture. The skilled psychopath will have you open up in ways you never have before, find out what your worst fear is and then make sure you experience it. This dude was gleeful about the sadism, too. I found this out later.

    Was he angry with me? I don’t know for sure. Was he frustrated? Can’t tell. That was part of the torture. I had revealed to him that a person’s actions reactions, no matter how harmful, (in the interpersonal realm) if I could at least understand their genesis, I could get over it pretty easily.

    He made sure he left me with no clues, no warning signs of what he was going to do. He cut me to the bone, no warning, after 2 years of getting so close to me, I felt like I was wearing him. Then he laughed about my pain.

    1. LisaO
      Jeez. Sorry this happened to you. It’s scary Makes you wonder how they can suck you in line that and not see it. It’s because their whole being is a facade. And you want to “get back” at them but you can’t. They don’t feel pain. Glad you got out in one piece

  27. LisaO & Lucy,

    This is why I come on this forum is to read about others experiences just like yours. It mimics so closely what I’ve gone through and to know that I am not alone is so empowering.

    The snide remarks, the enablers that protect their partners by explaining away their behavior as speaking tongue in cheek! the just kidding remarks are everything I’ve been touched with, tossed and turned at night with, stressed with and the only answer I could come up with to have peace was NO CONTACT!

    Learning how they got this way does not help identify them, it has to be a gut feeling and you have to listen to it. If someone makes me feel bad about myself I’m gone. I can honestly say I have not one toxic person in my life anymore. The one person I have limited contact with is once a year and I can handle it. She knows I have her number.

      1. Lucy,

        The majority of the time the CDNSP don’t hang together. However, when the CD have a common goal to get even with someone the CDN will stick together like thieves. Many times the greater CDN’s flying monkeys are wannabe lesser narcs. I have a family of them, they normally inner fight, but when the goal is the same they will gang up on you. So it is NC, also, the lesser CDN’s that can’t think for themselves will listen and take orders from the stronger ones.

        Again, never, ever, underestimate the CDNSP’s they will use any means to destroy the object person in their sighted scope. Payback is always on their minds, the CDNSP thrive on the ultimate destruction of humanity.

        1. Dead right – attack of the flying monkeys! Thank God I didn’t have that in the workforce. Tudor refers to the lessors in the case of smear campaigns and take downs as “blunt objects” I can clearly see why.

          I’m off to pool comp now to be in the company of normal people LOL Have Cornish Pastie will travel………………………….

          Have a great week-end guys! Yipeee

          1. Have a great weekend, Eudoxia. You deserve it! Your ‘roomie’ or client, I guess, sounds like such a drain. I love your descriptions of how you deal with him! It sounds like, along with his CD traits he has some mild dementia happening. Poor guy, but even worse for anybody having to deal with him, like you!

          1. LisaO,

            Yup, just like gangsters. They will steal, maim, hurt one another and sleep with each others partner. Reminds me of thieves, they steal from one another, will stickup and lie for one another then gang up on the one they cannot control or influence to join their sick gang.

            So it is destroy, the one who tries to be decent and responsible. It is sad the world and people have come to low life behavior. They are worse than animals, animals act the way they do to survive the CDNSP behave the way they do, as it gives them a perverted pleasure to hurt and destroy another.

      2. Lucy, I have an ex-sib who identifies as introverted but is really a vile anti-social parasite. Sometimes I wonder what kind of life he is living as he has not one person to call family anymore. I don’t care, I just wonder.

        I don’t like the term “step” but I have a “step” daughter-in-law and in this case the term “step” is appropriate because it’s exactly what I’d like to do to her. Anyway she made a point of correcting a person at her wedding during a speech if you can imagine and it was on the amount of “friends” she has on Facebook…over 600 and she sounded ridiculous when she made the correction.
        She is the one who speaks with “tongue in cheek” to get in her barbs and covert aggression and has her husband enabling her at every turn.

        Why do people put so much emphasis on Facebook status and friends. I have 4 friends I’d actually turn to.

        My ex-sib does not have one friend and he is a very vile CDN and this SDIL considers herself a very popular person and she is just as vile but wears her mask closer to her face. Both of them have made me feel terrible, I could never define what type of people they are until I came here but I knew they made me feel bad about myself and they needed to go.
        It was the best decision I ever made. These CDs come from every walk of life but I never look at the world as totally dark because of them because I have a keen sense about people and it hasn’t let me down yet. The frustration comes out when I’ve had to defend myself to others and why I don’t want to be around these CDs. They don’t treat everyone the same way.

        My life is good now, I have a friend who I can shop with, another I can have drinks with, one that I can talk about worldly problems with and one that is one of the most intelligent people I know, eccentric and doesn’t like people much but for some reason we have connected for over 30 years and we haven’t ever hurt each other. These are the most important real people in my life plus my daughter and husband.

        1. Sydney,

          Your former sibling sounds like a true anti-social for sure. Does he have traits of autism, or is he just your typical human hater?

          And your step daughter in law and Facebook! Gahhh! Another signature tell of narcissism — bragging about how many ‘friends’ you have!

          Yeah, try showing up at just about any of those 600’s door uninvited, plunk herself down on their couch and wait for a cup of coffee.

          These aren’t friends and Facebook should change that designation because it is just one more way that modern life deludes people into thinking they are somehow popular and truly connected in a meaningful way. The shallowness there is a perfect example of the narcissistic culture we are steeped in.

          That being said, I know it CAN be a good tool for business and to find people you have actually had a real connection with, in the past.

          Happy for you that you have gone no contact with people who have caused you grief and made you feel bad about yourself. That’s another CD tell. Disagreements, fights with normal people can be pretty abrasive at times. But with a weasley type, they are blistering.

          They are expert at social jujitsu. The energy we employ to defend ourselves from their attacks are deflected and aimed back at us and in a way that is meant to cause shame and humiliation. They make us feel bad about ourselves.

  28. Lisa you asked “Your former sibling sounds like a true anti-social for sure. Does he have traits of autism, or is he just your typical human hater?”

    I never bonded with my ex-sib, and I mean never, and I don’t know why that is but I don’t think he has autism (interesting question) but he is definitely a human hater and more specifically a woman hater. He always favored our mother but hurt her with his “nastiness” and he has a daughter who is the only person in the entire world I imagine that gives him any kind of affection. She is in complete denial and has only admitted “he has issues”.

    You also commented ; “They are expert at social jujitsu. The energy we employ to defend ourselves from their attacks are deflected and aimed back at us and in a way that is meant to cause shame and humiliation. They make us feel bad about ourselves.”

    I have the hardest time forgiving the enablers right a long with the CDs as they have done as much harm by defending them and denying everything.

    My mind used to run like a hamster on a wheel and when it finally went quiet I found it very hard to accept that I had healed from their behavior. The constant reliving of what they had done was over, when it tries to creep back it doesn’t ever carry the significance it once had.

    I can’t be the only one that has found her way out of this?

    1. LisaO,

      Yup, just like gangsters. They will steal, maim, hurt one another and sleep with each others partner. Reminds me of thieves, they steal from one another, will stickup and lie for one another then gang up on the one they cannot control or influence to join their sick gang.

      So it is destroy, the one who tries to be decent and responsible. It is sad the world and people have come to low life behavior. They are worse than animals, animals act the way they do to survive the CDNSP behave the way they do, as it gives them a perverted pleasure to hurt and destroy another.

      1. They are worse than gangters BTOV. Some gangster types actually live by a certain code “honor amongst thieves” Then you have CD. They have no code of honor, no ethics, no morality, no regard for anyone other than themselves.

        What happens when the gangster is CD – Sociopath. Welcome to planet Earth where up is down and down is up!

      1. Lisa,

        You said: “I will NEVER let anybody be intentionally cruel to me again. Ever. Differences of opinion, fine. Angry stuff said at the height of emotion…fine. But intentional cruelty, when you are trying your level best to be kind and get along???Never again.”

        Exactly the standard I hold up for myself. I only had to walk into a room and be covertly hurt by “family.” My H said their behavior was triggered by jealousy and I said “of what?” and he said “because you have the best looking husband.” That’s true actually, lol.

        1. Sydney,

          The Nasty friend I went No Contact with I noticed had some unique behavior. She had to be the center of attention at social gatherings. She talked in overly familiar terms about new acquaintances as if she had known them for years which I could never figure out.

          Here’s another Narcissistic thing she pulled. She and her husband and my husband stayed in MY condo in a vacation area. I bought it and then was unable to travel for health reasons. I’ve accepted this as part of my life and adjusted to it pretty well. I am commonly left alone when others get together. But…like the good doctor advises, I have always focussed on what I have and what is going well, rather than on all of the things I can’t do. So I manage to be fairly happy, regardless.

          Anyway, this bag, knowing I was having problems with family came over with her slides and slide projector. I made dinner for her and her henpecked husband. All through dinner she talked about her family and how close they all were and what a joy they were….okay, I am feeling a little choked, but am holding up okay.

          Then, after dinner she gets out the slides from the vacation spot where she and her husband and my husband spent a month, without me. She proceeds to show the slides and laugh and really pour it on about what a great time they all had. And I mean really laugh, woop it up, pretend my
          husband was her new bestie, etc…Not once did the cow even say, “I wish you’d been there!” When I started to ask her a question about the trip, she cut me off!

          I felt like crying–and seriously, I have gone through a lot and never felt so elbowed out and diminished. And family and some friends have annoyed me, but never to the point of wanting to cry. So, I pretty much had her number after this really “swell” event, so I was ready and waiting for her to pull another one and OMG, did I cream her and have never looked back.

          People who make you want to cry in social situations are playing games with you and probably malignant narcissists. This chick is malignant narcissist comorbid histrionic. I note that when she wasn’t being nasty she was kissing up to me. Very freaking weird how these types relate to the world. She seemed to ricochet from jealousy to contempt and back again.

          I am so sorry you had to go through this bull**** with family. It’s so much easier to go no contact with a Narcissistic bully friend.

          1. Lisa,
            “I note that when she wasn’t being nasty she was kissing up to me. Very freaking weird how these types relate to the world. She seemed to ricochet from jealousy to contempt and back again.”

            This describes exactly what I went through with my eldest brother’s wife. I “creamed” her too and lost my brother in the process. He is an enabler to the nth degree and how he justifies it is beyond me. I think his wife has relationships with people who are afraid to confront her but eventually some draw the line and disconnect. She is a loud, obnoxious in your face woman and within one moment to the next can covertly turn from Dr Jecklette to Dr Hydette! It’s like an ice storm in the middle of summer. She makes up lies to have her immediate family side with her and they never ask what the victims side is. I won’t ever lay eyes on her again.

            Good for you Lisa to have “creamed” that woman, she deserved it.

            We make up nicknames for the CDs that have crossed paths with us so that when we meet someone with the same name it won’t create a negative feeling. It’s so easy to stick with it too and it’s a great trick.

          2. Lisa

            She sounds like a certified Histrionic – probably Hist/Narc comorbidity. Histrionics are obnoxious, in your face assholes who love lording it all over others. They will often make out they are more intimate with certain others than is the case. Of the ones I’ve had the misfortune of meeting they display a total contempt for other people’s boundaries and social norms. Their quest for center of attention is total and all encompassing. Most will cause some kind of disturbance in order to keep 1st position by same dramatic display which is generally shallow and meaningless. They are the Kings and Queens of “sweeping statements” This is from the DSM 4TR and of all the ones I’ve met they demonstrated every single diagnostic criteria below.

            301.50 Histrionic Personality Disorder – Diagnostic Criteria

            A pervasive pattern of excessive emotionality and attention seeking, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

            1. is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the centre of attention
            2. interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexuality, seductive or provocative behaviour
            3. displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
            4. consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self
            5. has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
            6. shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
            7. is suggestible i.e. easily influenced by others or circumstances
            8. considers relationships more intimate than they actually are.

            They are also very good at giving marital advice – they are also very good at breaking up other people’s relationships. I had big trouble with one of them here but not anymore. She caused more damage to people in this town to the point she rarely shows her face in town these days. As the hunting ground is small it seems she’s had to set her sights on others further a field.

            What is particularly injurious to this type of narc is ignoring them. I’ve sent this one off on several narc rages. The last time she tried to goad me into a reaction I had one final exchange with her and said in a flat monotone voice “Your pathetic addiction to be center of attention is childish and shows how deeply insecure you are. You are empty, lacking in substance and beyond boring” I did a huge yawn in her face turned my back on her walked off and left her standing there. They really, really, really hate that.

            Needless to say she hates me LOL. Oh yea one other thing, they come across as the best mothers in the world – behind closed doors tells another story.

      2. Lucy one day I realized my mind was quiet, I can’t explain how it got that way but the quiet was almost uncomfortable because I couldn’t remember when I had ever experienced it before. I thought to myself, there has to be something to worry or fret over and I couldn’t come up with anything. It was a big moment for me.

        I don’t meditate but I do go to the gym and it has been very therapeutic for me and I have gone NC with the CDs that were in my life. I have limited contact with one because of a Christmas gathering and my H validates me so it can’t get better than this can it. The CDs in my life have zero power over me now. I do not even harbor anger I’ve healed that much but I will never forget what they are capable of.

    2. In all honesty I think the enablers are worse than the CD. They literally give them cart blanche to crush, kill and destroy. This happened with my ex best friend, her husband was an enabler and would tolerate outrageous abuse and explain it away as “oh it’s just x” sorry that leaves others open to frequent abuse when their behavior goes unchecked all the time and what’s worse not only do they think their behavior is normal it is further reinforced by the enabler.

      From a personal perspective I think enablers had to be raised with abuse in order to find it tolerable and/or acceptable. Anybody with an iota of self respect would not allow themselves to be treated in the way they allow. I think the vast majority of enablers would be either co-dependent or lesser narcs particularly the ones who gang up on others and can be easily recruited as flying monkeys.

      According to quite a few therapists it takes between 12 – 24 months to recover from a narcissistic relationship. Recovering ourselves is dependent on the amount of inner work we put into our own healing. Finding peace of mind is imperative. I never struggled with that before but I most certainly did when I was recovering.

      Quiet mind is essential in normal living but almost impossible when being abused and while in recovery. I’m out the other end there also but that took some time.

  29. Btov,

    I feel so blessed that I haven’t had to deal with this type, except singly. Passive aggressive guy was so socially awkward, anti-social and covert weasley, he didn’t drag helpers or ‘homies’ into his pathology.

    Alcoholic guy was too inept to be that damaging. The P operated singly too, for the most part.

    Dealing with them as a family, tribe, gang, any kind of social group would be very alarming. And as a child it would be deeply deeply disturbing. Sorry you had to go through that!

  30. Sydney,

    I had a friend a few years ago who tried (once) to do this social manipulation number on me. It is super cruel. She basically told me I wasn’t welcome to hang out with her and some mutual friends one weekend. She implied it was a consensus decision!

    I got on the phone immediately to the mutual friends, who had no idea what she was talking about! I blasted her in an email and then went ‘no contact’ immediately. There had been some clear red flags on several ocassions before, usually ‘under the radar’ stuff. Talk about nasty though. You can go years with people like that, absorbing all the subtle put downs and writing them off — but you always come away from it feeling a bit bad about yourself…until you have their number.

    I will NEVER let anybody be intentionally cruel to me again. Ever. Differences of opinion, fine. Angry stuff said at the height of emotion…fine. But intentional cruelty, when you are trying your level best to be kind and get along???Never again.

    1. My wife once told me that her friend told her that, that I appear to be a very difficult person to live with.

      This social jujitsu translates, “do not resist. concede, concede to me”.

      … and of course, my wife must have been badmouthing me in front of her friends.

      I should have called her friend right then asking her why she thinks I am difficult.
      Let the sun shine of truth fall upon lying vampires. Be ready for they may go berserk. 😀

      1. Andy,

        Of course you would “appear to be difficult,” to your wife’s friend. Your wife likely dragged you through the mud regularly! Their insults mean nothing, particularly those designed to make us feel less worthy in an “everybody else can see it too.”

      2. My wife once told me that her friend told her that, that I appear to be a very difficult person to live with.

        Joeys reply

        ” Well that’s just her opinion. Opinions are like arse holes every one has one”

      3. Andy D – good to hear from you!

        In the case of “the pot calling the kettle black” – major understatement eh? If you don’t agree with absolutely everything they say – you are argumentive! Not allowed to have our own opinions in Narcland.

        Hope all is well your side of the world.

  31. joey,

    I replied to you on the question you asked pertaining to your calling your father a few days ago on Dr. Simon’s Topic dated August 26. Only if you want delve deeper. I am sorry about not getting back to you, for several weeks, however, there is a lot to think about here regarding the father. For me many times it takes awhile to think how I many respond in situations before responding, thanks for your patience. I will watch for your reply.

    Glad to hear you are doing so well at your job and immense satisfaction, if anyone needs this break, you do.

  32. Eudoxia,

    You are dead right about the histrionic personality type. She has some of these features but more Narcissism. The giveaway is the arrogant attitude and manipulations. A pure histrionic isn’t necessarily intentionally out to undercut you and they aren’t particularly manipulative. They CAN be but it isn’t a dominant feature.

    One of my brothers was married to an almost pure histrionic. They are THE most exhausting people on the planet. No boundaries, big mouth, big hair, skin tight clothes, wants to talk about sex all the time. Twerk like Miley Cyrus on the dance floor (at 50 years old)and has to be almost hailed off. Yikes!

    Did you enjoy your CD free pool weekend?

    1. Lisa,

      Yea I agree – I had a friend many years ago who was purely histrionic she sounds very similar to your friend. Everything about her was inappropriate, her dress sense – everything, talk about lamb dressed as mutton. Generally embarrassing to be seen with! She upended a table in a restaurant one night because she wasn’t being given the attention she required lol. She’s recovered herself now though and has done a lot of self work. She’s amazing now, no sign of histrionics. But you cross that with narc and that changes everything!

      Pool was great – I actually won BUT I didn’t like how. We were both on the eight ball and the other guy sunk the eight and the white went in off. So I ended up splitting the prize money 50/50. This guy is an ex Vietnam vet with one leg, he’s angry with the world but he’s as genuine and honest as the day is long. I have plenty of time for him and those like him. No CD this week-end. I’m hoping that trend continues :-

      1. Omg Eudoxia

        Amazing that histrionic woman was able to turn herself around! So many of them don’t have enough insight to be able to do that! Good for her.
        I thought when you mentioned pool you would be swimming!

        Nice to get some R and R!

  33. Sydney, Good for you. Let ’em have it and then go no contact. You may be doing your brother a favour. It will give him a vote of confidence if he decides to leave her. But it must hurt to lose him even though.

    Still, isn’t it great to walk away from these types? What an incredible weight off! Imagine Lucy, Btov and so many others being married to them for so many years. The thought just makes me shudder.

  34. I was once married to a CDN as well, but he let me go early in the marriage because as he said to someone “she can’t handle it”, the other person replied “it’s not that she can’t handle it, it’s that she won’t put up with it”. “IT” meaning the lying, the boozing, the womanizing, the not coming home, the everything…
    He went on to marry again and his second wife firmly believed that as long as he came home to her then he could do anything he wanted! That was her standard. No matter what any woman would have done for him it would never have been enough. From that union came two sons and he eventually ran off with a foreign student.

    I was the luckiest person in the world to have only been married to him for 1.5 years and in all honesty it was only the first three days that were okay. He set me up at a very young age to know what I didn’t want in a relationship. I’ve been married 35 years to the polar opposite of my first.

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