Charming Narcissists Manipulate Well

Two Main Types of Narcissism

Long ago I realized that narcissists come in two very different varieties.  You have to know what makes each type tick to deal with them effectively. So, I was sure to discuss them in my first two books. But back when I first wrote about them, most professionals didn’t recognize that two types existed. However, in recent years, much research has validated this notion.

“Neurotic” or “compensatory” narcissists harbor inner insecurities and have a fragile self-image. So, they crave praise and adulation. And they seem oblivious to how obnoxious they can appear when trying to prove themselves. Contrarily, character-disturbed or “grandiose” narcissists have strong and inflated egos. And their arrogance does not represent an unconscious compensation for an underlying impaired sense of self-worth. Such folks truly believe in their greatness. And they treat others with disdain and on purpose. Believing themselves superior, they feel entitled to do so. They even know how they come across. But they lack empathy. They’re aware but simply don’t care. (I speak to this in depth in Character Disturbance.)

Two Other Types of Narcissism

You can separate narcissists in another way, too. Some narcissists are unhesitatingly brash and vulgar. They openly flaunt and disdain. And they offend us easily. We tolerate such folks only when we have to.  We’d rather not even be around them, let alone deal with them.

Charming narcissists are different. They know just what to say and how to act to curry favor. They’re adept at the art of impression management (or image control). As a result, they know how to seduce and otherwise manipulate you. (See also: Deception and Manipulation.)

Brash and vulgar narcissists naturally offend us. So, we naturally want to keep our distance and watch our backs. But charming narcissists are in some ways more dangerous. Like I say in In Sheep’s Clothing, dealing with them can be like getting whiplash. You only fully realize who they are and what they’ve done to you after the fact.

Charming Narcissists and Relationships

My case files are full of a typical story. A victim reports that on the front end of a relationship someone made them feel special. They made them feel desired, of value. They said such wonderful things – made incredible promises. The victim may have even known that the purpose was to be won over. But even that notion made them feel important. Only after years of exploitation and abuse did they come to realize they represented merely a trophy of sorts. And, unfortunately, they also learned the hard way how easily some trophies can be discarded once they’ve outlived their usefulness.

I’ll have more to say on charming narcissists and their relationships over the next few weeks.

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87 thoughts on “Charming Narcissists Manipulate Well

  1. I think the very worst charmers are those who understand the different types of relationship bonds and can easily identify people (women usually) whose bonds have been fractured.

    I was targeted because I told the Psychopathic charmer that my siblings ignored me, my parents were gone and my only close friend was moving away. I was socially isolated in a remote community with a chronic illness.

    My marriage was weird. The smallest attempts I made to get closer to my husband, to establish real partner like rapport weren’t understood. It was like trying to dance with a two by four. I loved him…as a friend. But Wow, really difficult for both of us.

    Anyway, all that aside, just want to make the point that the psychopath, in my case became human Velcro for ALL of my relationship deficits. He would, in turns, behave just like a best girlfriend would, or a kindly father figure, And of course, over the top romantic Velcro, I could easily attach to.

    After a lifetime of trying to establish bonds of loyalty and meaning with family and bonds of expressive affection with my husband…and failing, I encountered this one stop shopping for all of my bonding needs!

    They are SO SO good at faking sincerity and can make you feel whole, happy and as if you have just opened the door to a new life, one you knew MUST exist out there somewhere…an attainable dream. Then *poof* they’re gone.

    1. Lisa

      Sounds like the usual thing with narc romantic relationships. They seduce you make you their everything, have you totally thinking you have found your soul mate, then devalue you then discard you. Providing you of course you don’t come to your senses first and discard them! Then they will be out for blood and then some.

      1. Eudoxia,

        It fits the pattern perfectly. I know. Though I do think the sadistic twist at the end, (knowing I was in therapy for PTSD for childhood and adolescent trauma) was particularly vile.

        I can remember telling him that, due to my own past, I could understand how children become sociopathic. He encouraged me to write about different episodes in my life where I felt I was vulnerable to becoming completely hardened.

        The “interested soul mate” routine was a grooming process to foster emotional dependency and to learn as much about my inner nature as possible– for the purpose of manipulation. And in his case, I feel there was emotional sadism as an end result, though I don’t know if sadism was his original intent–just control.

        I am revisiting this sordid aspect of my past for a couple of reasons. I am able to do so now from a completely detached perspective. I have also been reading more about the effects of early trauma on the development of the brain and trying to figure out what exactly happened to me while I was growing up.

        I have struggled with wanting to maintain perspective and not be too unduly harsh on my parents. I do still love them and want to maintain feelings of affection, however limited, even though they have passed away. I have feared spiralling into a vortex of self focus and bitterness so have declined to characterize my father’s actions as ‘abusive.’

        I pray for help from my guides, Jesus, the Buddah and any other loving entities who wish to help me on this journey!

        I am so sorry, Eudoxia, that your daughter was so cruel to you. It was a knife wound to the heart you shouldn’t have had to endure. Why do people harden? When does it happen? Is their character a much larger component, if it happens later in life? It used to be a Narcissistic society, now it is becoming a full on pathocracy, I fear.

        But there is hope too, if we can help those who have suffered as all of those on the forum here have. We can help by reaching out with information but also with kindness and warmth to everyone but particularly to those who are currently going through their own forms of Hell.

        1. Hi Lisa,

          I totally relate to what you are saying. Good points. Where abouts in our childhood did we start hardening. From my own personal journey and study into early childhood development all manner of things occur. This is what I understand thus far.

          Our brains are not fully formed when we are born, they continue to grow and develop post birth. Usually until age 3 which happens to coincide with object relations. Further up till the age of 7 we operate in a theta state, we are taking on and absorbing everything. We start absorbing information as soon as that part of our brain is developed which is usually somewhere in gestation. It’s the only way we can take everything in. So up to age 7 we are in a semi hypnotic state petty well operating as recording devices. We take on all of our experiences, they are all stored in our long term memory eventually – most of our experiences remain hidden from us and inaccessible.

          However, when we hit new experiences our brains look for prior information to attach to these new experiences to in order for us to make sense of this new experience. Sometimes our brain comes back with information that is an inappropriate interpretation to what we are currently experiencing. If it is a particularly negative memory we will apply a negative interpretation to the new information. It’s very tricky – there is more to living in the NOW or present moment awareness than most people realise.

          Because we have recorded everything up to 7 and although we can’t access that area of our brain. What allows us to attach to those memories operate as faulty beliefs we have about ourselves due to our early experiences and this is largely unconscious also. Not all that information is sorted or filtered. It’s just all packed in there in the order it got in there. First is first and everything else gets stacked on top. It’s a hodgepodge you could say.

          The stored memories are not all good. We have absorbed all of our experiences just as they were presented. Up until 7 we have not been using alpha or beta state for analysing or application of logic so our experiences are locked inside us in their original form stored within our long term memory. When a new experience occurs our brain goes to look for previous experiences that allow for an interpretation of this new experience, this is when the trouble starts.

          Dan Goleman explains the brains processing of new information very well in Emotional Intelligence. If we experience something, our brain will automtically and immediately search our long term memory to find a match it our new experience. It may not come back with the perfect match you could say. All of this happens in less than a split second and depending on what is retrieved data wise is expressed in an emotional reaction/response to what it is we have experienced not in words or thoughts – they come after.

          “If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

          I love that statement because it is the truth. What we are experiencing is new – every experience is new – it never happened before. Yet we can incorrectly interpret something new based on a foggy event of long past. Hence if this memory is particularly bad it shows up as a negative emotion within us. So nobody (narc or neuropath) can cause us to react only we can and how we chose to show up in every second of every day is our choice and ours alone.

          For those who have not done any inner work to resolve false beliefs about themselves they go through life on autopilot. They don’t have the power to choose how to be in the present moment. I’ve done mega work in this respect. I know the difference between how I was before to how I am now I can recognise when I am triggered and alter my response to it. Piss off the thoughts, and deal with each moment a new with new eyes.

          What narc relationships do for us is this. They reveal that which is locked deeply within ourselves. As you know narcs are really good at triggering us. That is a key in and of itself. If they can trigger us – what are we holding onto and above all why? This is the topics of topics for me right now. This is what I am doing and looking for. I am conducting a major houseclean of my inner psyche. I am no longer content to recognise a trigger. I want to find every single trigger I have and dissolve it and release it so I am free from it.

          When did we start to harden Lisa? I’m speculating that from about 7 onwards and that’s what I am turning up when I do a NARP module. By the age of 10 is when my ego started to take over. If you looked at that clip Joey showed – that was excellent by the way Joey – thank you for sharing that. That is innocence expressed in its pure form, those kids would have been around the 7 age. Once we hit alpha/beta states we start applying logic to our experiences, that little seahorse in our heads starts the sorting and retrieval and bye bye innocence.

          I am really benefiting enormousy from NARP. Because my experiences were so horrific (all of ours were) it is solely up to me to make sure I NEVER bring anything like that toward me again. In order for me to have brought them into my life at this time means I was a vibrational match for those experiences because my own former housekeeping wasn’t thorough enough. I am correcting this now and using Quantum Freedom Healing which is actually a form of NLP (neuro linguistic programming) and it’s working!

          Through accessing memories through theta states is when we uncover these aspects of ourselves that are producing these vibraitonal matches to those experiences i.e. from an early age I stored the belief that my father in particular was not able to support or protect me emotionally or physcially, therefore the message that was stored was “people are incapable of supporting and protecting me emotionally or physically – I am unsupported in life” What has been turning up as a match to these memories? Those exact kind of relationships time and time again.

          Life isn’t a game of chance. We have a purpose here and it’s not to play Black Jack with our lives. We do create our own reality. Of course we had not control over this as children, but we do when we are adults. Hence the saying “We are not responsible for who we are but we are responsible for who we become”

          I am taking personal responsibility for me and using NARP and doing some serious housecleaning. I am now correcting those false beliefs about myself and others and things are improving dramatically and exponentially in so many areas of my life. Only we can do this. Nobody can do it for us.

          We can know all there is to know about narcs and why they do the things they do. They are going to continue what they do regardless of anybody else’s knowledge of them. Nor can our knowledge of them heal us we can only ever understand their motivations. The power to heal us lies within us and us alone. We have no control over what they or anybody else does or how they interpret life or their own experiences. The only thing we have control over is ourselves. This is it and the buck stops here as far as I am concerned.

          If you want to access when you hardened Lisa then I can seriously recommend you sign up with NARP. It’s pure gold! I’ve popped in a link with some information. I can highly recommend it for anybody as specially after narc abuse. We have a lot of self recovery to do post that.

          Bright blessing to all!

          1. Thanks Eudoxia. Good info. The brain also does a massive pruning and reorganizing in adolescence. If we have a talent or interest, our practicing of say music, art or math is supported by brain growth devoted to those areas. What we don’t use can atrophy.

            I wonder if some kids inclined to sociopathy, if steered in the right direction, can be put into programs that might help their brains develop more of an ability to empathize.

            This is where I think organized religion can help. Regardless of belief, it is one of the systems that can reinforce the values of love caring etc…and children are socialized or learn to practise those values.

          2. To Eudox, & All,

            I reviewed the above link Eudox suggested and am impressed with the information Melanie Tonia presented on the her you tube. I found the information and her presentation for healing remarkable. Our Eudox has completed it and reports it has helped her tremendously.

            Well MS. Eudox you have convinced me to do the modules to help further heal on my journey. I feel Like I have come so far and need to rise to the next level of consciousness and put the past behind. Find the triggers and subconscious unresolved pain from the past that hold us back. I am rather excited to start and find more closure.

            Thanks for posting such a valuable resource.
            Hugs dear one and many blessings and happines

    2. Joey,

      That hate and detest anything about you that takes your attention off them. You are only there to supply them with them getting their needs met. Of course earning a living is secondary to worshiping their existence. Priorities my friend.

  2. Has anyone experienced being negatively talked about by family members and them spreading tales about you to the whole family behind your back? I found out two members of my family were doing that. I spoke at my Mothers memorial service and I don’t think they liked what I said, which was nothing but respect and honor to my mother but I think because I have a Christian perspective on death, they don’t like it. Anyways I am being smeared as being “inappropriate” . This shocked me but really I should not be surprised, they have been doing this kind of thing to me for years. I am a Christian and I am trying to forgive and not have bitterness, I know the Bible says to pray for those who despitefully treat you. How have you handled this situation if you have been the recipient of this kind of behavior.

    1. Kat,

      I deal with the same thing. I think you are handling things fine according to your faith. I do the same thing, I also pray for them even though I have cut all of them out of my life due to the strife they cause. I still have my mother, she is 84, and she feels the same way I do.

      I have found turning these things over to God and forgiving them gives me peace and sets me free from carrying around their trash they try to dump on me. Stand your ground and put all your faith and trust in God and his truth will set you free and give you peace.

      Read Dr. SImons book call ed the Judas Syndrome, I think you will find a lot of validation in his book

      Be at peace and blessings

      1. BTOV

        I’ve not read Judas Syndrome but that is what narcs are all of them without fail. If you want betrayal dished out in spades – just hook up with a narc.


      2. The further I grow as a Christian the more alert I am of growing “a root of bitterness”, I know it is poisonous and I must be vigilant to get this unforgiveness and bitterness out of my spirit. Thanks for the encouragement.

      3. These brothers are not Narcs, and yet they saw fit to talk about me to the other family members about me supposedly being “inappropriate” in the emergency room when my Mom was on life support. I don’t know what they think they heard. Its just so wrong to spread stories about me based on nothing. I was shocked when I heard it. One of my sisters was standing by me and couldn’t believe they said that about me either. She knows I did nothing. I don’t get it, why would they do that and spread their tales to their friends and other members of the family? It is hard to deal with. I am struggling so hard not to feel bitter about this.

        1. Kat,
          You had a casual conversation while your Mom was on life support? Is that what they meant? Everyone reacts to these kinds of things differently. While my Mom was dying we were at her bedside. She had been in end stage dementia for some time, so didn’t know we were there, or anybody else for that matter.

          Her death meant the passage from this life to the next one, and the end of suffering, in my mind. So, it was not a cause for sadness but relief. I wouldn’t miss her as she had long gone and hadn’t known me for over a year.

          I am sure people thought I was ‘inappropriate’ at her funeral too, because I flat out just told anyone who cared to listen that she wasn’t dead, nor would she ever be. As she was my mother I felt free to speak my mind. And to this day, I don’t give a darn what that side of the family thinks.

          The other weird sense I got was that death seemed like a surprise to so many people. “I can’t believe this happened.” Like, you can’t believe someone’s gotten old and passed away?

          Anyway, may seem callous but I think I was so burnt out grieving so many things, it was hard to pretend that I was grieving death.

          1. LisAo,

            We may see it as a death, but in reality it is a passing on to the next stage. For the ones that have died that I truly loved, who were a intricate part of my life, they live within us, they truly never die.

            Under the circumstances, I don’t think you acted inappropriately. Also we all have our own particular way of dealing with death which I think a mature person understands.

        2. That is what they are saying, I had a casual conversation. Funny thing is, my other sister who they do not talk negatively about was also speaking in the same way, as were others. It was not casual, it was absolutely respectful. But somehow I was singled out. If I go NC with them that means not going to any family gatherings because they are also the “leaders” so to speak of the family. Those two seem to think they are the important people and it is up to them to allow some people in and keep some people out, and this is the way they do it. One is also married to a women who always has to be the center of attention and she acts the same way, she ostracizes some and those she sees are most favored she trys to get their favor. Those like me who are not favored she doesn’t care about treating well.

          1. Kat,

            You have just described my position in my family including the one who is married to a woman who always has to be the center of attention but excludes others at will depending on what side of the bed she got up on in the morning. Her husband (my bro) is her biggest fan and enables her to the nth degree. How did I “let go”, I went NC with the lot of them. I felt lonely in a room full of “family” and I am empowered now, it was my choice to leave not hers/theirs to impose on me. You will NOT change these people you can only change how you react to them. I love my friends who are my family, they have chosen to be around me and me around them. What are “family gatherings” worth if you’re made to feel excluded? I sincerely empathize with your struggle and wish you the best.

    2. Yep

      I spent 24 hrs in a police cell because of it. It was the intention all along.
      The trigger for this. You will not belive it. I was such a terrible person, no morals at all. LOL

      I tryed to achive a career and then leave. I needed a job to pay for a life as a independant person. Skills that go with trying to make a career in engineering.
      My mind and time were occupied by my own life and not hers. She would habitually say ” I’M NOT PUTTIN UP WITH IT” My mind and time were occupied by my own life and needs and not hers. And that is what she would not put up with. What a total bastard I am. I should be doused in gasoline and set on fire. Or maybe punched to the ground, then she could put her foot on the back of my head and grind my face into some broken glass. Make me suffer as much as she does. For trying to live as a free thinking adult !!!!!!!!

      “Neurotic” or “compensatory” narcissists harbor inner insecurities and have a fragile self-image. So, they crave praise and adulation. And they seem oblivious to how obnoxious they can appear when trying to prove themselves.

      1. Joey,

        I can relate. Soon as I said I wasn’t playing her mind games any longer, that she doesn’t get to do this, had my number changed and got a different apartment, a birthday card shows up. I called to tell her thank you out of formality. Lived to regret it. “You cut me out of your life, you make trust hard.” Really????????

        She shares anything and everything about me with her family (of narcs, wow), and friends (who she leads to believe she can do no wrong).

        Excuse me, she is the one who makes trust hard. All the rest of these dysfunctional patters, all of them are ones to unlearn.

        Funny is how angry they get when you draw the line one last time. And trying still to put the blame where it doesn’t belong.

        I am not sure how fragile her self-image is, she seems to think pretty highly of herself.

    3. kat

      I have a daughter who in all likeliness is full on NSpath, she’s slandered and maligned me to the point of no return I am NC with her and will remain that way for the term of my natural life unless she genuinely shows contrition which is unlikely. Her salvation is her responsibility. They have no concept of a higher power anyway.

      I am Gnostic – each has their own interpretation. At a funeral the nearest and dearest irrespective of religion or spirituality can say what they wish to say in their own way and it should not be judged by anybody. Such is with grief, nobody can tell another how to grieve.

    4. Kat one thing I should mention. My Aunt is a devout Christian and she upset quite a few people including her kids (who are not Christians) when she said “Bert is going to go to hell because he didn’t believe in Jesus” That got a few people talking I can tell you. It didn’t go down very well.

    5. Kat,
      Seeing as she was your Mother and your family are well aware of your beliefs (and you would have devoted the lions share of your eulogy to your Mother’s memory) they are out of line to be disturbed by it or smear you in any way!

      On the other hand, I have been to funerals where ministers, knowing full well they are delivering their eulogy to a room full of Agnostics about the Agnostic deceased start yammering on about Jesus, salvation, etc..etc…with evangelical zeal — while they refrain from mentioning the deceased at all. Now that is tactless! And if the purpose is to evangelize to those while they are emotionally vulnerable, (thus ripe for conversion) it must accomplish the exact opposite.

      1. Lisa

        I’m confused about your reply “Agnostics about the Agnostic deceased start yammering on about Jesus, salvation, etc..etc…with evangelical zeal”

        Agnostics don’t know if there is a higher power or not. They neither believe nor disbelieve. They are lukewarm you could say. For an Agnostic the jury is out there so I can’t see how they would yammer on about Jesus or salvation when they are not on board that ship. LOL

        Gnostics are different again. They absolutely know there is a higher power. Jesus and Buddha both taught gnosis. The Nag Hamhadi library is full of Jesus direct teaching to his disciples. This did not make it into the Bible. It is knowledge of self. It is the penultimate meaning of MAN KNOW THYSELF. A gnostic fully knows salvation lies within themselves and nowhere else and must rise above material temptation to evolve into higher states. Gnosis is from the Greek word Nous meaning knowledge. It is the religion of the philosophers you could say -smile-

        I was also at a funeral once conducted by a pastor who went on and on about God and made hardly any mention of the deceases either. It pissed off my mother immensely. When Mum died we had a private celebrant to conduct the service. My mother was Agnostic.

        1. Eudoxia

          I didn’t reread what I wrote but to clarify — it was a Christian minister evangelizing to a funeral ‘congregation’ composed of Agnostics and come to think of it, atheists too. He would have for sure known just enough about my uncle to realize he was not a believer.

          He was paid to speak at the gravesite and to talk about my uncle. A bit about his own beliefs would have been okay…but he spoke exclusively about Jesus and it was done in a rote way that was annoying.

          It was a dispiriting empty ritual that felt like a weak attempt at a hard sell. Highly manipulative and not in keeping with the spirit of Christ , at all.

          I am not sure what I am. I look outside of myself for some help and inside for help too. The help I have received from my guardian angels, or guides (or whatever one calls them) could not have been created by myself alone.

          I think we are likely all constituents of a higher power but not the higher power itself. But I am not sure. I do think that Christ was a superb presence who changed the world for the better, ushered humanity out of the dark. And…I like Buddah too and sme aspects of Hinduism as well.

          Above all, I feel we all need to live with hope and love and patience.

          1. LisaO,

            I think in the end we all worship the same God. Be it the Hindu’s, Christianity, American Indians which I relate to very closely. I think the religious part of it, mans rules and injections of agenda with all their traditions and laws are what has corrupted the spirit of faith.

            When one thinks of the horrific crimes committed against one another, such as the Spanish Inquisitions forcing one religious ways down ones throat, it is far from what is considered Christlike, Budda or Hinduism for that matter. Truthfully, no one knows, it lies within you to determine your truth.

          2. Lisa – same thing it’s what happened at my Uncles funeral too. The Minister/Pastor whatever he was (Baptist) at any rate knew full well my Uncle was Agnostic. It was my Aunt who is Christian – the kids are all Agnostic as well. He went on and on about Jesus etc will little mention of my Uncle.

            There is a general misconception about gnosis. Gnostics do not claim to be the higher power itself – but are an aspect of it. From a gnostic perspective we are part of the original creation. God/Source made manifest as physical creation. We do not see God/Source as a separate entity that is outside of us or anything else, but everything is/as a part of Source. Gnosis more closely reflects Hinduism as in “the in breath and out breath of Brahma” Brahma being not an entity but everything in either its dormant or manifest state. Every tree, every blade of grass every insect, every animal, every human – everything in creation is a spark of the divine – God/Source made manifest.

            It’s the purpose of spiritual evolution to remove the impurities from our being in order so we can reunite with God/Source once again as the in breath calls us back so as to become whole. In our impure imperfected state we can’t. When we are born we are as close to perfect as can be – we defile ourselves along the way – faulty programming etc. We can also pick up genetic imprinting as well which is generational sin from a gnostic perspective.

            Buddha after leaving his palatial life became an Asthetic Yogi for nearly two decades before he came to self realisation and hence the Buddhism tradition was born. Buddhism does not recognise a God figure head as such but see everything as a continual recycle process.

            Many sages across many ages have come to teach the same thing. At an esoteric level it’s all the same.

      2. The memorial was at the church my Mom and I go to so the pastor knew her well. Apparently my brothers also think I was inappropriate in the emergency room where my mother was on life support. I don’t get it, I did nothing. They said I talked in a “normal conversation” to one of my sisters who they also say was “inappropriate”. This sister will not even speak to me and I asked her a couple questions to try and draw her out so she would speak to me. One of those questions was to ask if she was still going to her son’s church with him – just something to try and start some conversation but she responded with a sour look. I don’t get it. My brothers are not narcs but yet they persist in viewing me in a negative light. I have never understood it, so I guess its not just narcs that can try to make a person’s life miserable. I was shocked when I heard it, I plan on talking to them to see what they think they heard, but I just don’t get it when they can talk behind my back about something I supposedly did which I have absolutely no idea what they are referring to. I don’t know why they are doing this. Its depressing because I try and revive a relationship with my whole family but I get shut down like this. I don’t get it.

        1. kat – it sounds dangerously like a smear campaign. Did you watch that link I left for someone else recently about smear campaigns? I’ll include it again for you. If they won’t talk to you and you are completely confused as to why then there is something more going on. That’s not right. This is a bit of a red flag.

          When my Aunt made the comment about her husband (my Uncle) – she wasn’t smeared, it shocked a few people is all. She is well loved and respected and doesn’t usually talk about her Christain beliefs. She just blurted it out and the kids were horrified but it comes down to grief again so it’s a highly personal thing.

          But your experience tells me something more, but only you will be able to make heads or tails of it. Please listen to this it may help.

          1. Kat,

            From your post I got the same feeling Eudox expressed, something more is going on here. I think if you think about it in detail and some past incidents you will find more red flags.

            I also believe LisaO stated some valid points when others use funerals which I vary rarely attend a bully pulpit for their own evangelizing instead of memorializing the person who passed.

          2. Thanks EU, that was helpful. I had decided previously to go NC with these two as they seem to want to make a scapegoat of me. But one of my sisters kept encouraging me to try again. I think she just wants everyone to get along. So as soon as I got around them again during my Mom’s passing they started up again making fun and belittling me around others. I did my best, I tried again and got shut down again. I am not going to keep doing this, its very hurtful and confusing. I am very stressed but watching the video helped me feel I am not alone.

    1. Joey,

      It is the expression of innocence and living in the moment without self sabotage. They accepted each other without judgement. We can get to that state again. It just requires self work. That was beautiful Joey, thanks for sharing. Love is still here, we just have to love ourselves enough (not narc self love) to access it and allow it to flow.

        1. Joey,

          Niceeee! I had my first cup of coffee this morning listening to Skellern – I’ve never heard him before thank you so much for posting.

          Today is your date with your lady friend. I hope above all else it is a lovely day and she is everything you are not accustomed to!!!!! I mean that in a good way.

          May the force be with you!

          1. My date was None existent. You can only ask the question, ” Do you like me” if the answer is no, then so be it. My point in posting was “I had the courage to ask THAT QUESTION” the answer is immaterial.
            I am still happy either way.

  3. Btov, so well said. I believe very much in the golden rule and am trying hard to put it into practise as much as possible. And am sure everybody on this forum is doing the same. If only people would focus on the spirit of their faith, like you and ignore the details that divides us.

  4. Eudoxia, Knowing thyself, or Gnosticism is very important too. Being too externally referenced and unaware of our own demons doesn’t get us far. All of the best ideas of the great religions and Gnosticism and tribal faiths are compatible with one another. Even animism from which it all sprang has something important to tell us about the spirit of the earth and all of her creatures.

  5. Before beginning the service, our pastor read aloud a note he’d been handed moments earlier. “It says here that I should announce that there will be no B.S. tomorrow morning,” he said. He tucked the piece of paper into a pocket and added, “I’m hoping they mean ‘Bible Study.’”

  6. One of the most dangerous parts of what my mother does, is she does have the credibility of her nice house, nice car, etc.

    And as long as I have put up with her stuff, I have found it is the fastest way down to the welfare office, when I haven’t, I work, and now, close to full time, as well as my disability check. What this does for me personally, less a financial deal, is so huge, it goes beyond money-it is known as self respect.

    When she’s used money to manipulate me, her nice house and car façade to tell other people when I have cut off contact or tried, “oh, she has bipolar,” or “her thought disorder” (hallucinations/delusions is what a thought disorder is). Same things she says to me. She uses anything she has to in order to further her own agenda.

    And what is sad, is she has been accountable for none of it. One day, though, we all are accountable, and to the man upstairs.

  7. JC, She dismisses all concerns you have with “that’s just your thought disorder.” Does she credit you with being correct ever? You mention her agenda. What do you think her agenda is?

    1. Jc,

      You speak of a thought disorder and that can mean many things, so the terminology is rather vague. Jc, to have emotional issues comes with many connotations by others of being mentally ill, when in fact there are many factors that weigh in to having emotional issues which most people have had at some time or another.

      It is also very hard to diagnosis another too, when we don’t have all the tools available, information, facts or understanding in order to label what is happening properly. I will share with you I have been diagnosed with PTSD and I completely agree with the diagnosis and over the years learned how to deal with it rather effectively. At first it was very hard for me to put into words or properly understand all that PTSD entails. I also felt ashamed to tell anyone for years, now that I embraced it as part of me and turned into a gift, it has benefited me and I have used my understanding to help others.

      JC, as far as everyone here is concerned, know we embrace you with open arms. I am also going to say something to you and please know it is with all kindness in trying to better understand you, what has happened to you, where you are at and where you want to go. Many times I am at a loss understanding what you are trying to verbalize. I think others do too.

      In trying to help you go ahead with your life, give support and advise it would be helpful to us and beneficial to you if you let us ask specific questions to better understand you. There is nothing to be ashamed of or to feel guilty about, or fear, it is the here and now and about going forward.

      In all kindness, to help me understand you, can you say specifically what you have been diagnosed with in the past. Also, being diagnosed with something doesn’t mean that is what you truly have or you can’t shed it. Please know this has no bearing on how we feel about you as a person. Sharing and getting more insight will help you understand at a faster rate how to let go and deal with the past in order to shed or integrate into your past experiences. I hope you feel comfortable enough with us to open up, we all care about you and know this is a little nitch where you can come and feel OK.

      Hugs and many blessings JC

      1. Good thing as a coworker pointed out that the standard for my mental competence is far lower than the one for her gun permit. For which she lied on the application-telling them no mental health treatment (there has been but generally speaking, there is no treatment as the officer in Omaha pointed out, LOL, recovery is mine. 🙂

        But also, she has had a restraining order on her (I was the first adult child in my home state to get one (as an adult).

        See why this makes me nervous?

        1. JC,

          I want to apologize for not getting back to you after asking several questions in regards to you. You kindly answered several unanswered questions which helped clarify several questions for me and hopefully, for others. I am going to answer this post to you for now. What I say is my opinion and in your best interest, which can be accepted or disregarded.

          First of all, your mother has no business calling authorities in your state and you as an adult do not have to answer any questions, to anyone.
          1. First of all authorities have no jurisdiction in matters of these kinds crossing state line. It is no ones business and you need to stop answering to others when you are an adult conducting ones own affairs.
          2. If the authorities come to your door the first thing you don’t want to do is talk about medications and firearms. State you have NC with this part of your family, you are fine and please let them know you wish to be left alone and zip up your mouth. In rattling on you are opening numerous doors for problems.
          3. You state you have gone NC that is the answer, you do not communicate with your mother or family/friends that might be or triangulating this mess.
          4. NC means NO CONTACT…….”PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!! No ands, ifs, or buts….
          5. Stop talking about firearms and medications to individuals because it may have a reverse effect on you and come back to bite you.
          6. Stop talking about your mother and adverse things that happened to you to only selected individuals, such as here and your 12 Step group.
          7. Do not talk about these matters at work, school, or with acquaintances as they are unsafe venues and can change at any moment. You don’t need anymore unnecessary problems to deal with and most people listening once, DO NOT what to hear our problems more than once.

          Just for openers asking officers into your home and showing them all your homeopathic herbs, especially, the wrong cops can get you arrested. I am not trying to scare you, but they can confiscate anything you have.

          You do not have to explain or go on the defensive, this only, unfortunately, makes you look only more suspect.

          Forget about you mother and her minions and concentrate on you…..
          I understand this is a lifelong fight for survival you have been in with sick individuals, however, you have to break the pattern and your response.

          I understand traumatic brain injuries as I have suffered also, I also dabble as you in homeopathic remedies and herbs. On the other hand, I do have a background in firearms and a good report with law enforcement and I am commenting from this perspective.

          JC, in you position stay NC and I mean NC, no letters, emails, texts, Facebook, not anything, NADA….. This is more protection than you know and quit defending yourself to people as when you do this you can come across as having problems, guilty, hiding something etc..

          I am telling you this for your own good and from my personal experience. You are still very raw, open bleeding wounds and you must let them heal. This will take time and as our Eudox always reminds us: “Know Thy Self.”

          Put your time and effort in knowing yourself and being strong in your genuine self. I know this is hard being all alone without support. Know we are your family of sorts and support you, you have to do the work though, we are limited in what we can do for you.

          For now, I am advising you to stay NC on all levels no matter how lonely you may feel, if all you say is true any and all contact will eventually backfire on you, will be twisted and turned against you and you will be all the more damaged and set back for it.

          These people never change and remember this, ingrain it in your mind, if these CD individuals reach out and play nice, there is always an ulterior motive. The CD have a black book and they keep account of everything, distorting the smallest of details to make you look bad. If there are two of them against you this will only make the case against you even more air tight.

          If your mother and her husband has your number, change it, has your address, send all mail back (write on it No Such Person at This Address) and throw it in the mailbox……. Change your POA for healthcare and finances to anyone but your mother, and family as the first of kin will always be contacted if there aren’t any other legal documents in place and these you can do yourself.

          Stop straddling the fence, I know it is hard to give up any family you have, but truly a stranger on the street is more caring then the den of vipers we were born into. I know you are struggling and are lonely, so am I, but there is no way in hell I would involve myself in a dysfunctional family because of it. You can also go to the Women’s Resource Center for help and validation.

          In this day and age and what is going on, for your own good, stop talking about firearms and medications with others.. You are vulnerable and it could very well be turned against you.

          JC, I have said all this in all kindness, out of concern and caring. Please heed my advice and in some instances a warning.

          Take care for now and keep growing, learning and taking care of you.
          The blessing in all this is, you have found a safe haven here, on Dr. Simon’s blog. Know this, Dr. Simon is a man of integrity and truly cares about his fellowman. Dr. Simon’s blog isn’t about money, its about giving back to humanity and his love for his fellowman. Also, several of us posters have been here for several years now, the regulars are no fly by nights.

          Know you are embraced and accepted here into our little family/community to share your thoughts, needs and pain and know most of all will try to support you the best we can, we also care enough to tell you the things you need to hear.

          You are a blessing to us too, as we learn and grow from your input and sharing.
          Be well and be safe.
          Hugs Kindred Spirit

  8. BTOV,

    From a mental health-its PTSD, and CPTSD.

    Medically, I have GI issues(gastroparesis), and have a past history of cognitive problems related to two old traumatic brain injuries.

    Clinically a thought disorder varies from a cognitive one-a thought disorder is also a psychotic one-namely hallucinations and delusions.

    The worst thing shes ever done was while I was comatose after injury 2, tell them I “took too many pain pills” (telling me, “go take your psych drugs”) and also telling my doctor that I had a thought disorder-so when I woke up they were giving me an antipsychotic.

    She knows what the terms mean. I explained them to her when I took my psych rotation 20 years ago.

  9. The way I handled her with this (right before I cut her off) was give a bascis on pharmacology: pain docs, neurologists and psych docs? Use the same meds. So for once-there was nothing she could say.

    Then I said to myself-punish myself for your shortcomings? Nooooooo waaaayyyyy!!!!!

  10. Eudoxia,

    To improve my perspective a bit, her husband is on gabapentin for nerve pain (as opposed to neurotic). ‘He is on too much pain medicine..” (any is too much), “I will take him to pain management because some people can handle pain and others can’t.”

    Telling her her husband was on a mental health med (gabapentin is both), call it a bit mean of me (darn), but he does need his medicine. Checking out and not giving a rip (? sounds familiar).

    I see Mayo for GI (because they are closer to my home in Iowa), and yes, the best. I was going to give the guy a bone, as Mayo has a pain management near where she lives too. Um nope. Guy is on his own. And I like the folks at Mayo.

    1. JC

      Mayo Clinic is excellent. What you might find is complimentary to that given what you have gone through is NARP (Narsisstic Abuse Recovery Program). I’m doing it and I can say it’s helped me recover exponentially from the abuse cycle and it is cyclic.

      Things are turning around for me big time. It’s about healing past wounds so we are no longer a vibrational match for abuse.

      1. Eudoxia,

        I think there are others that would all make a well rounded investment (financially, can’t afford them all, but maybe at some point, rather than the time and therapy bills I have wasted money on, or antidepressants when in my opinion that stuff causes mental illness, after cutting it off, then spending time and money on this, 12 step meetings, and getting on with my life, this was the step that turned my life around. This relationship has been toxic for 43 years.

        I found this site on I think it was Joey’s video:

        1. JC

          Antidepressants have two benefits (sarcasm) they keep you in a state of brain fog and leave you with an “I don’t give a fcuk” attitude. This is not healing it’s prolonging the agony.

          Richard Grannon is excellent. He’s a pscyhologist and a NLP practitioner. He is also entertaining to watch which is a breath of fresh air as it takes the pointy sharp bits out. Because dealing with narc abuse is devastating. Then to top that off you don’t get much support other than by those who have experienced it. The life coaches all have hence is why they are now doing what they are doing.

          It’s important we only invest in things that actually heal us. Give no energy, time or attention to band aid solutions that only exacerbate the fog and confusion while disconnecting us with the one thing we need to identify in order to heal = the actual pain.

          Lisa – yep we are in a full blown pathocracy. The system itself encourages sickness and suffering it does not promote life or wellness. We don’t have a health system, we have a sickness system. It is necrophilic. Any healing modalities that are actually curing people by natural means (biophilic) come under attack brutally by the necrophiles. Anything and anyone that/who promotes prolonged suffering by damping down symptoms is necrophilic. Parasitical predators, profiteering from repeat business. This is the ride people have to get off.

          Notwithstanding, there are some conditions that yes do require medication, however, a good many of them don’t. I am not talking about hard core mental illness or the criminally insane – that’s another box and dice altogether.

          We have to make healing our Number One priority and it sounds like you are dead on track JC. I do recommend NARP because I’m doing it and benefiting hugely. You do whatever you think you need to do that feels right for you. But it’s high time we all came to the realisation that we are the Captains of our own soul, so let’s don our Captain’s hat and take over the wheelhouse!


  11. Eudoxia,

    Thanks for the link. I think what is best, though is that working a program, and also even if previously, people have thought that I had a BPD, without this person in my life, I am unlearning all of the stuff that I learned from her. This is the benefit of recovery, but also, my brother is the only one who doesn’t have the benefit of AA, because it seems like he is so tied up in success that I think he’s terrified of failure, which is something that happens to us all-humans are by nature, fallible. Everyone fails at something, that is normal. It is also how we learn. I bombed a couple of interviews for employment that would put me closer to my goal of naturopathic school of medicine, in the health foods industry, but I also asked myself, “What did I say/do that would have gotten me to not be hired?” Make a note of it, and do not repeat the mistake.

    I believe that those who are most tied up in success, when they do fail at something, the low point is a bad one.

  12. JC,

    I have a clearer idea of your situation now. Thanks for describing it in more detail. I was on disability before I got married many years ago. Fortunately, I had a great GP who helped me with my claim. He understood that my illness affected my brain and my ability to think clearly and quickly and also my short term memory — all related.

    I had classic complex PTSD before I got sick and that alone can cause cognitive problems. Plus, I was in a car accident and got severe concussions, in my early twenties.

    My father, a lousy parent, and my mother (who was a loving but ineffective parent in many ways, where my father was concerned) DID come to my aid throughout the time I was trying to qualify for disability. For that I am eternally grateful.

    It’s hard to imagine being gas lighted as being ‘mentally ill’ by a parent while trying to deal with an illness or a past that affects mental processes. Cognitive issues like this do NOT make you insane.

    1. LisaO,

      Yes, gastroparesis is often a life-limiting illness. She used that to tell police in Omaha that I was incompetent and suicidal. When the officer came (mostly to tell me, “Call your mother”), I told him she was manipulating them, that I knew right where I was, it was right where I needed to be, and that I knew exactly where it was.” Then I spelled out, that I have a life limiting illness, and C-PTSD. His light bulb goes on, he sees that I was also right. Went back to the police station (and yes, I know have the report), and informed her that regardless of jurisdiction, that if it ever happens again, she will be charged with filing a false police report. Of course, she was angry, and then said that I was the one manipulating the police.

      And from 2003-04, I had a restraining order in another state (records no longer available), but they still gave her a gun permit?

      Nothing I can do about it, thankfully, I live several states away. I don’t hate her, in fact once I discontinued contact, the forgiveness is there now. Toxic, I just can’t deal with it any longer. I do get to have a life.

  13. JC,

    I just looked up gastroparesis. Really horrendous! Yep. You sure don’t need any more problems, like Mommy Dearest!
    My best to you, JC. Stay strong!

    1. Yes, I am blessed with some great docs-Omaha and now, Mayo. Managing with diet now.

      Helped me get my priorities sttaight.

      1. To describe gastroparesis accurately, it feels like you are starving to death-and basically you are. A limited number of things you can do for any type of pain, nerve or bone pain (I have both, but that part is better now). It will make you feel like Kevorkian is ahead of his time, but acting on it, is a very different story. Feeling like that is human, I see a certain amount of depression as healthy coping. Dysfunctional that results in a decrease in daily functioning, different story.

        A highly developed pain management, different supplements to help with nerve pain, oils, diet, NSAIDS, and things like turmeric, etc, are all designed to help. Work helps with self-esteem, and financial insecurities. I owe the ability to do so to being able to manage this with diet.

        And to telling the narc that I am no longer punishing myself for her shortcomings.

        1. JC,

          You have a LOT on your plate! I am so sorry that you have such a crazy Narc Mom. After I came home to live for a short stretch, in my twenties, my parents became my most vocal advocates. At that time a proper diagnosis was eluding me. My mother, in particular, wouldn’t let anybody get away with calling me psychosomatic, or just lazy, or nuts. By that time, she realized I had a physical disease and stood by me.

          The confusion for me with my Mom revolved around episodes where she would be cruel and tactless and then she would snap back to being my mother again.

          These episodes increased with age, but were still relatively rare. Then when she hit about 75 years of age, she had me in tears a couple of times, her lack of tact and empathy became so profound on a few occasions.

          Fast forward three years, she was diagnosed with Frontal Temporal Lobe dementia. This form of dementia causes personality changes and a lack of empathy is one of the key symptoms.

          I wonder now if my mother had been experiencing momentary episodes of tactlessness and lack of empathy starting in her fifties or sixties that were precursors to the full blown disease.

          Imagine having a parent who is kind and empathetic who becomes a full blown Narcissist for a few minutes and then snaps back! Too weird, I tell ya!

  14. This is an excellent article about the American education system and how it is churning out narcissists deliberately. I totally agree. It is not just America it is the same in this country and all Western nations.

    When I watch (which I don’t anymore) Question Time in Parliament – it’s a pathetic joke. We have frozen adult children – one marshmallow kids running this country. They fall asleep drunk in Parliament (no shit there was a major scandal about this) and then argue like 3 year olds, resort to name calling – I’ve never seen such a blatant display of emotional delinquincey it’s truly stiffling. I refuse to vote anymore as there are NO CANDIDATES worthy of running a public toilet let alone sitting in official office.

    1. If/when I have children, they are NOT going to public school-not only ARE THEY churning out narcs, the quality of education is wretched. As a freshman in college-more than 20 years ago? Students in English 101 (I was proofing papers, an unofficial TA, the professor needed the help), they could not even structure a sentence, not enough to EARN a passing grade in that course. Where I went to school, they would not have graduated.

      Private school, or I will home school them myself. Absolutely no way would I sent children into the US school system for an education-they don’t get the one that I would want for them.

      You sum it up well, compare what you said about the Parlimentary system with what I have said just about the educational one.

      US political debates taking place on Twitter? Consider the source of where this is being held. Twitter is created for people who are 18 and slightly older, the maturity level is far lower. I think there are some parallels with what you’re dealing with where you’re at, Eudoxia.

  15. My special SB Narc was the brash and vulgar type. He didn’t try to hide his ugliness, although he did hide his secret life. I think it would be much worse to suffer through a relationship with the charmer, as LisaO has. That type is scary. And I’d think once burned one would be extremely caution and even hesitant to trust in another relationship.

  16. I have wondered if my mother also has APD. It doesn’t seem like she fits enough of the criteria, but one that I have seen her do is to seek care, from a psych doc (but for MY mental problems, telling others about my life “for extra support.” She has had no regard for the effect on me, or anyone else. What I don’t see is the violations of the law, she can plan ahead and maintain work (probably for her own narcissistic supply).

    Then I realized it really doesn’t matter.

  17. I have a question for the group. American psychiatrists want to disregard C-PTSD in favor of BPD-there are some differences, and cause it one.

    Is there a tool to measure or diagnose this (C-PTSD)? IF so, where do you find one, if there is one, some will look at diagnosing it.

    1. JC,

      The APA American Psychiatrists Association who publishes the DSM? It that who you are referring to? As far as I am concerned the DSM is a tool that can be used for gaslighting purposes on entire populations. How by creating all these b/shit disorders and making people believe they have them, then in order to enhance their experience fill them full of drugs that probably cause more psychosis than they cure. The reality is that anti psychotic drugs don’t cure a dam thing and neither does that ridiculous publication.

      Soon the DSM will eventually have a diagnosis for smiling too much. Happiness Disorder – to be immediately treated with anti psychotics. Can’t have the people too happy. They much prefer people to live in fear that way they can feed them more b/shit and treat them with more drugs. Some of the other disorders listed in that pile of misery are totally ludicrous and could only ever be thought up by those who are seriously insane or just pure evil.

      Dr Simon’s books and articles on character disturbance make much better sense and shed more light on these disordered dark souls than the DSM (any version) ever will.

      If you want to know more about C-PTSD I would highly recommend you conduct some thorough research into it yourself then tap into your own inner knowing. Don’t fall for the bread and circuses of the vomit squad. The movie The Matrix was more of a documentary than a movie – after all it was about fabricated reality and it can be easily achieved with TV. Turn that thing off too! LOL

  18. JC,

    I just want to clarify, my mother was not a narcissist. She was a person who had 5 children before the age of 30. She was exhausted, distracted and felt she should support my father’s child rearing methods, in the interest of a ‘united front.’ This was a popular notion back in the day. And it is a good idea if both parents are same. Handing the reins of power to somebody who is emotionally stunted and selfish is NEVER a good idea.

    Her extreme callousness was episodic, rare but increased with age. As she was diagnosed with FTD dementia, I am wondering if that may have been the problem all along.

    Whatever the cause, it fractured a very strong bond and caused me a lot of grief, though I have trouble accessing those feelings–I just went numb.

    As to your question about complex PTSD and BPD, I feel they should be separate, but can see why they would want to place them both in the same category. It would ‘t surprise me that PTSD could lead to BPD in some individuals.

    1. You know what? I know. Because psych docs know diagnoses and meds. Period. Not the total innerworkings of my brain-the why’s, etc.

      Besiedes, now that I cut this off, I no longer need one. So, doesn’t really matter, I guess. Someone else’s low opinion of me (be it a psych doc or anyone else in my life), is not relevant to me now. Any unconscious decisions to “punish myself” for someone else’s shortcomings, just ended when I cut that stuff (toxic) out of my life.

    2. Hi Lisa/JC,

      Lisa I didn’t know that about your mother, I’m sorry that happened. At least she was not permanently like that. This is a saving grace in and of itself. I wasn’t a product of abuse but similarly to your own experience my father was over the top strict and controlling (he wasn’t a narc) but he would have had unhealthy levels of narcissistic traits. He was a product of his own harsh upbringing with an abusive father. My mother had CEN for sure! I did not know what CEN was when she was alive or I would have done something for her. The thing with my mother was she was so emotionally shut down getting through to her about anything emotional was an effort in futility. If she didn’t want to talk about anything she would just clam up.

      Because I understand the nature of the human condition I hold no angst toward either of them. In fact I have little doubt it was Mum who led me to NARP. I felt her presence around me for about 2 weeks and I had a very energetically disturbed evening one night – it was really strange, I wasn’t anxious or unsettled I could just detect an energy that was familiar yet wasn’t??? It was weird. I was not going to sign up for NARP but something literally pushed me to it at 2.00am that morning and I sat bolt upright in bed and said that’s it I’m signing up and did right there and then. I have not looked back – it is the best thing I’ve ever done or committed to and that energy cleared and was gone the next day.

      You and JC have been pondering C-PTSD and Borderline. I’ve been looking at both for a while now. I’ve included a talk by Richard Grannon on this exact topic it should give you some more insight into this interesting topic. I am of the opinion that CPTSD left unchecked can turn into Borderline as a result of CPTSD turning pathological and embedding itself. It is a dangerous condition to be left unchecked.

      In hindsight I now realise I had CPTSD after the last two episodes with the 5 narcs in total. I recovered myself though. What I am doing now via NARP and quantum healing is hoovering myself LOL I am making sure I have no left over hidden false beliefs about me that are allowing me to become a vibrational match for abusers and abusive life situations.

      Life does not happen to us it happens for us. Narc relationships like any other bad relationship (ok super super super bad) are simply showing us what we have that is unhealed within us. People don’t like to hear that but it is a reality. We will attract those people into our lives that are a vibrational match to what we at a deeply unconscious level think about ourselves due to childhood trauma and other unprocessed childhood wounding. Of course we can’t attract our parents, however, what comes after them is what we end up with – our lot so to speak unless we do something about it.

      After another 5 narcs attempted to cause mass havoc (and succeeded to a degree – I need to know how I allowed it and how I granted access to receiving chaos and I am shutting that door. They and the experiences the bring with them are not going to enter again. In order for them not to slip through any cracks I’m cleaning up the cracks too. I’m leaving no stone unturned here. If we wish to change the world then we have to become the change we want to see. As in the Hermetic Principal “as it is above, so it is below”. When we clean up the inside then the outside takes care of itself. We are evolving and in order to continue evolving we have to heal and repair ourselves in order to be the best people we can be. I’ll use the Forrest Gump analogy – if we are a Salted Plum we are not going to wind up in the same box as fine Belgian Chocolates are we? LOL

      Getting back to Borderline and CPTSD – enjoy the talk by Grannon, he has more on this subject. It is also worth listening to the HPA Axis Dysregulation talk he does after it with another woman (not sure of her name).

      1. Eudoxia,

        Yes, life should happen for us, not to us! If life is like a stage, (our own stage) we don’t want to be brown bagging it as extras. We should at least get speaking parts in our own lives!
        And yes to the harsh father. Mine was so strict and slap happy, he made home life feel like an ongoing audition for a Three Stooges film — minus the so called humor (been reading about all the Hollywood Narc-pervs, to explain theatric references!)

        And agree with the vibrational match idea too. I will have to think about that more. I had obvious major wounds (to a psychopath). Most people wouldn’t have noticed it or thought I was pretty confident and ‘together.’ I am a great actress (there we go again!)

        I will watch the Grannon video. Thanks. You are great!

      2. Eudox,

        Excellent link, I didn’t see this youtube by Grannon. He puts out some awesome information and explains everything so well…
        Thank you

  19. JC,

    I know in my case it would be premature to quit therapy all together. I am still really struggling with damage to my brain and psyche from both physical illness and emotional damage. It doesn’t all just go away with No Contact for many people, particularly if you grew up with bullies, oddballs or full blown CD’s.

    Weird things trigger me and I have to try to understand why and then work on calming myself down.

    1. Hi Lisa,

      Many things trigger us. I was no longer content to just recognise when I am triggered – I want to annihilate them altogether. Emotional damage doesn’t go away with No Contact – it remains. We’ve been slimed, spiritually tarnished and maligned coldly and repeatedly with callous disregard of our own needs. That is going to cause extensive emotional wounding. Going no contact prevents us from acquiring more damage; it’s a prevention but not a cure.

      This is why I am finding the NARP so beneficial. I am getting to the core of my triggers and OMG when you start doing the work in earnest it’s incredible what you can bring up and what we have been locked into. It sounds like we had very similar familial upbringings. I have HUGE issues with my slap happy father. Between him and my mother’s lack of emotional support due to her own upbringing we have some serious damage that has led me to hold onto false beliefs about myself, albeit deeply unconscious.

      I can say that no other method has been able to crack this one! I have used Ayahuasca and all sorts of things to heal it. Nothing has truly worked, sure they brought me closer but not to the core. But NARP is getting me a lot closer to the “big bogey man” program I’ve been silently running in the background. Seriously you should see what comes up. Because we are going into a theta state that damage can be accessed. It can’t via alpha and beta states. It’s deeply embedded.

      When we sign up with the program it gives us unlimited support to heal. Healing is promoted above all else and there are certain practices we must adopt to ensure that healing is achieved. I can honestly say it is one of the most sophisticated narc abuse forums I’ve ever been on because rules apply that make further abuse via secondary and tertiary sources impossible.

      Abuse by proxy is an important thing to guard against during the healing process because it hinders progress. I highly recommend it and two people who have signed up to it who I know personally are also benefiting from it exponentially. It is the way to go for full healing and recovery.

      WHY SURVIVE WHEN WE CAN THRIVE AFTER NARC ABUSE! Time to turn the tables, jump on the wagon and become Thrivers!


      1. What I love actually is the idea that she calls the police in Iowa. I shall show them the report from Nebraska, and tell them what happened, if I am “out of my mind and on DRRRUUGGGHZZZZ” I shall show the Officer my Ashwaghanda and essential oils. 😛

  20. Hi everyone, new to this site, not new to narcissim. This is a great site, and I thought I’d share a little bit. Yes, my story is very much the typical one. My exnarc is an artist, so the valuing stage was intense. We were together for 6 years, and owned 2 businesses. We worked perfectly together, but that’s the thing I realize now…it was an act; a show for the clients. As soon as the shop would empty it was back to the good ol silent treatment. I dealt with that covert abuse for 6 years, and yes it was me that was the crazy one…how do you leave someone for wearing headphones?!

    Anyway, there’s one part of my story that stands out to me the most, and that these posts have brought back up.
    When I finally left my exn it was because I caught him viewing photos of our client followed with pornography. I confronted him out of respect for our client, and he denied it (of course)…the next morning he woke me up with his fingers around my throat. That was the ONLY time “real” abuse had ever happened. After that, HE left me saying that anything he had done to me was a direct result of what I had done to him. He stqyed gone for 2 weeks. Long enough I guess for my sickened mind to believe it. After that it was an ackward power struggle, shortly after I broke up.
    The break up lead to a 4 month nightmare of proxy stalking, and smearing. Our businesses, 1 I owned was lost because of his tactics. He was desperate to get back into my life…and even after each blow try to work things out.
    4 months of this….
    One day he called me, as real as I think I’d ever heard him.
    “You were right” he said. I of course lost it. I’m on the phone, in a parking lot, SHAKING…
    and I asked…”all this, all of this to protect your lie?”
    The next words he said will haunt me forever…if for no other reason then to keeo me from making the same mistakes.
    He said, “oh, now, you had a role too”
    “What? What was my role exactly?”
    “You really want to know?”
    “Your role was….. (deep breath-almost more of an annoyed sigh)….the victim.”

  21. When they came to my door, all I said was “I am over 18-it is my right to disappear. I know right where I am, its right where I need to be and I know right where that is. She is manipulating you, Officer.” Done-and I said nothing else.

    Also, she is the one who is always saying I am “out of (my) mind and on drugs,” it is her MO. I pnly stated what my response is (when) she does it again. Here is the only place (and a co-worker with the same problem is the only persob I’ve said anything to.

    As for her permit? I guess astounded she got one at all and at work, no, it doesn’t come up.

    At meetings-only in relation to drinking.

      1. JC

        Further to what BTOV has brought into awareness I thought I’d share this with you. It is a talk by a Law Professor and he is talking to university law students. It’s entitled Never Talk to Cops and he very aptly explains and demonstrates why. I am not advocating criminal activity by any means, however, I was involved with a detective once for many years, I know how corrupt the police service and judicial system is. So does this guy.

        Inviting them in and showing them your oils and tinctures could actually get you shot by an emotional gunslinger actually packing one one especially if they have been told you have mental issues. There are psychopaths in the police force too. Be very mindful of this.

        CD stop at nothing to bring you to heal. There no measure of evil, low life activities they will not stoop to to control and punish you. I think you realise this by now. Please don’t make the mistake of casting them in the same light as us and above all do not give them any benefit of any doubt WHATSOEVER! NONE – ZIP!

        1. JC and All

          I hope you watched the link Eudox so thoughtfully posted. I watched it along with several others. Even former law enforcement are warning you how you can unintentionally entrap yourself. In all kindness JC, with the problems you have had in the past and how someone can misconstrue your situation, keep quiet. I must remember this myself, we have been on the defensive so long we don’t know how sometimes to be comfortable on the offense.

          JC, if you have gone NC then stay NC and wash your slate clean, they aren’t going to change. Next time Just tell anyone your are fine and thank you. Like I suggested write on the envelope deliverable, no such person etc. Change your phone number and stop talking to any of these people. Your past will aways be used against you by these relatives, especially, if there are two of them.

          Forewarned is forearmed. Keep going forward and be the best you can be, live in the here and now and not in the past.

          Be well and many blessings to you

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