Charm Offensive or Offensive Charm?

Manipulators and and other significantly disturbed characters can be quite deceiving in their self-presentation.  They can come across as amiable and charming.  They can even appear to appreciate and value you.  And when they mount their charm offensives, they can knock you off your feet and bowl you over.  Only after they’ve gotten what they wanted are you likely to start seeing more of their true colors.  But not all folks who mount charm offensives are offensive, reprehensible characters.  And not all of the things that make a person attractive to us need be regarded with skepticism.  As mentioned in the prior article in this series (see: Manipulators and Charm), it’s often difficult, however, to distinguish between a benignly charming person and a charmer harboring a nefarious hidden agenda.  But there are some things to pay close attention to that can help you tell the difference, and that’s the focus of this week’s post.

There are lots of things we can find charming about someone.  We might admire their wit or be drawn to their humor.  We might envy their lightheartedness or apparent zest for life.  We might find some of their physical characteristics both pleasing and alluring.  And if we make the decision to become more deeply involved with someone solely or even primarily on these things, we have no one else to blame but ourselves if things don’t turn out very well in the end.

It’s also natural and not particularly unhealthy for someone to turn on the charm and put their best foot forward in the early stages of a relationship.  Making a favorable impression is part of the “dance” of courtship.  But the ultimate purpose of courtship is not wallow in those first, favorable impressions but to make a concerted effort to really know someone at a deeper level.  That requires going beyond the charm and objectively sorting through all the dirty laundry.  Before we give our hearts away, it’s more important to know who a person genuinely is in character than it is to be enamored of the manner in which they present themselves.

Psychopaths and the other disturbed character types harboring the most malignant form of narcissism tend to exude a superficial charm or glibness in their interpersonal manner. It often goes unnoticed as the huge red flag it is for the most dangerous kind of psychopathology, but it can be detected if you know just what to look for.  The “smoothness” or social facility these individuals display is generally not matched by congruent and concomitant emotion.  They may have a very easy “way with words” (sometimes accompanied by equally charming nonverbal gestures), but usually their smooth talk is not accompanied by any emotion that matches what they’re saying or that can be sensed and felt by others as genuine.   Still, because they’re capable of deliberately letting down their own guard, and while doing so, simultaneously carrying out their charm offensive, you can easily doubt your gut instincts (thinking that they must be being genuine) and allow yourself to be unduly swayed.

The job of a “confidence man” is first and foremost to gain your trust.  By opening themselves up and appearing vulnerable, and by expressing what appears to be interest in you and your welfare, you can feel like a fool for being hesitant.  So, you go with your head and your ears instead of your gut (which is more likely to find the “charm” offensive in some way).  Once you disregard your instincts, you’re effectively disarmed, and that’s when it’s game, set, and match for the con man (or woman).

Psychopaths have high social intelligence and awareness.  Seeing themselves early on as a superior subspecies and finding us ordinary folks both interesting and amusing (although they also regard us as inferior due to our sensitivities and qualms), they’ve usually spent most of their lives studying how we operate.  They know what makes us laugh, what makes us fearful, what excites us, what turns us off, and above all, what makes us vulnerable.  Their game is to gain our confidence and prompt us to voluntarily disarm, so they can take what the want from us.  After they’ve gotten what they want, there’s no more need for pretense.

In my book In Sheep’s Clothing, there’s a vignette about a man who, as the CEO of a company, knew how to make every employee feel like he liked and valued them.  And in words and gestures, that’s the “message” everyone bought, hook, line, and sinker.  But in reality this man had absolutely no use for people other than what they could possibly help him get in the way of power, money, and prestige.  Eventually, that became more clearly apparent.  But few saw it while he was doing his “schmoozing.”  If they’d looked a little closer when he was saying things like “I really like the way you think!” –  looked past the flattering smile and seductive twinkle in the eye – and paid attention to the lack of genuine emotion that might match the verbal protests of appreciation, they would have recognized his sweet talk was not a expression of genuine regard but rather a simple pitch for loyalty.  And, as the those who’ve read the vignette already know, this man was himself loyal to no one.  He was a seduction artist and confidence man par excellence.

Other examples of superficial charm or glibness can be found in my books Character Disturbance and The Judas Syndrome.  And I’ll be talking about some high-profile examples of glib smooth-talkers whose lack of genuineness and authenticity is betrayed by their inability to display congruent emotion on Character Matters this Sunday evening.

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172 thoughts on “Charm Offensive or Offensive Charm?

  1. Yeah! This is the first and foremost key to protecting ourselves other than having a healthy intact self esteem, which is easier said than done…Watching for the incongruence between the words coming out of their mouth and the emotional tone attached to those words. I think back to my childhood and how I was surrounded by adults who didn’t communicate in a genuine and emotionally present way. I received alot of double messages and spent a great deal of time anxious and confused having a father who was a high functioning alcoholic who often told me how much he loved me and how special I was bla bla bla (when he was drunk) and how as a child I had no idea that he was under the influence of alcohol at the time. Then other times he would fly into a rage for the littlest thing and give me the silent treatment for a week, like I didn’t exist. I had no baseline to read other people’s communication in a healthy and functional way. This is where listening to my ‘gut’ got all screwed up in the beginning. Glib means performed with natural or offhand ease in a way that is superficial but lacking in emotional sincerity. So when a person tells us a story we should listen to the story and look for whether they are displaying the type of emotion that a healthy person would attach to the themes in the story or whether they are left out of the picture/or completely skewed. We should ask ourselves ‘Why is this person telling me this story in particular?’, what kind of impression are they attempting to convey? What are the themes in this story and why do they want me to hear it? Are they scrutinizing me for my reaction? What kinds of questions are they asking me about myself and why those particular questions? How obtuse are their answers in relation to my questions? What emotions do they display in relation to the answers they give me?

    1. great advise Juliette and I can think of so many examples with Spathtard that apply. I understand what you are saying about FOO and not having anything HEALTHY to reference. Knowledge is intellectually based but wisdom is experientially based and if you have not experienced the healthy kinds of love a person is really seeking in a relationship with a man, it’s easy to just not get what is happening, what they are really doing or not doing. Also to “excuse” bad behavior because you are “used to it”, seen it before and lived to tell about it.

      1. Puddle, some charmers are so good at it though, so it must take time and a concerted effort, time to be skeptical and to be ruthless with ourselves about not putting selective blinkers on when it suits. That’s what I did this time. I won’t be test driving anyone for a very long time after this one, if ever. I need alot of time to recover this time.

  2. ” The “smoothness” or social facility these individuals display is generally not matched by congruent and concomitant emotion. They may have a very easy “way with words” (sometimes accompanied by equally charming nonverbal gestures), but usually their smooth talk is not accompanied by any emotion that matches what they’re saying or that can be sensed and felt by others as genuine.”

    There was a serious discomfort in me about this very same thing right from the beginning and I expressed that on more then one occasion to him only to be verbally chastised and emotionally punished. I had “insulted him”. and the way he expressed that to me was just so over the top and wtf? that it stunned me in a sense. This happened on more than one occasion and I know now that it was intentional and that I was on different occasions set up for many if not all of his “re”actions. I can not even describe some of these events because, the further into the relationshi* it was, the more traumatic it was for me. This is embarrassing but I can’t tell you how many times I remember thinking to myself……”Please don’t do this Spathtard…..I love you. Why are you speaking to me this way? I don’t understand”. Just typing that brings tears to my eyes because I know what I felt and could not understand.
    I told him on several occasions that I was too stupid for this or that I was ill-equipped. He would tell me to not sell myself short, that I was the most perceptive (not sure if that was the word he used) person he had ever come across. But I didn’t “GET IT”….it’s not that I didn’t see, I didn’t understand! And then when I would say I was ill-equipped , he would reassure me that we would work for this together because I love you Puddle and you love me. You really do Spathtard? Yes Puddle I really do, I love you SO much.

    1. Puddle, I’ve been reading Kohuts theory of self psychology and self/object relations. He was a theorist in the 70’s who formed a pretty good theory about attachment, narcissism and grandiosity. How the narcissism of childhood can grow pathological, I think you and J, if he hasn’t already read it will like it. He forms some sound ideas for the development of narcissism and people who treat others as objects and where this comes from.

      https://www.idc.ac.il/publications/files/358.pdf

      1. YIKES Juliette!! I will TRY to wade through that. Thanks for the link. It kind of looks a little over my head though?

          1. Severe ADD and I’m a one woman show with a puppy! I’m not “all that” smart wise but thanks Juliette. 🙂

          2. the problem I have reading things like that is that the language is unfamiliar to me, the words…so when I can’t read something easily, I get very frustrated and confused.

      2. So far read the beginning.

        So, simplified: In infancy and childhood, our caregivers either help us build a healthy sense of self or fail to do so. After someone has developed a healthy sense of self, the need to have others provide nourishment for it lessens, but still it shouldn’t be denied, according to Kohut.

        Self-object needs are needs supplied by external figures in our lives. They tend to lessen, but still be there to some extent, just not to as big an extent.

        Problems come when the development of self-concept is disrupted or someone denies their self-object needs.

        1. J! that last part is interesting. “when someone denies their self-object needs”. Because in life and adult relationships, it should be a balance, yeah? You can honor who you are and what you need for yourself to feel whole and still respect others right to do the same and even help others to attain the same. The idea goes (feeble attempt to explain) that spaths and severely disordered characters have little to no sense of self and are desperate to either hijack someone else’s or destroy it completely out of envy.
          So…..Spathtardx….. highly critical, abusive, domineering father………over indulgent and attached, enabling mother to run to and be propped up and coddled by.

        2. I beg to differ.

          Kohut IS an old-school psychologist. While I’m not saying his theories couldn’t be valid, he doesn’t seem to understand that someone’s narcissism can actually grow out of proportions. It’s not healthy narcissism anymore then.

          I guess if Kohut was still alive and he updated his theory, it could look like this:

          “If someone’s grandiosity has been indulged way too much, without proper ability to truly see others as persons in their own right developed, his ideal-forming and twinship needs can be severely distorted.

          The ideals that would otherwise be healthy can be severely bent out of shape by self-esteem grown out of proportions. The ideals grown can even be twisted, even unacceptable by others, which a person may full well know. Because of indulged grandiosity, a person dismisses the need to improve.

          The need for twinship has shrunken into minimal. An individual may use people to serve to mirror his grandiosity even more. After all, that’s what life’s all about to him. A person may also use people as his whims dictate or as aids in keeping up a facade for purposes of manipulation and disguise.”

          I think this would make more sense.

          1. J, sorry but I’m not understanding what you were disagreeing with. My comment is referring to healthy individuals not Spaths. I might understand …..
            In my opinion, a Spaths sense of self IS twisted and distorted, their true self, the self that could have been is underdeveloped and they live as a facade,,,,,,a fragile mask that can not be maintained without lies and trickery. When I say, “that spaths and severely disordered characters have little to no sense of self and are desperate to either hijack someone else’s or destroy it completely out of envy.” I mean REAL self.

          2. Also, when I read the beginning of the paper I immediately looked at the date it was written and it is an older writing, in need of a tuneup? I do the same when reading about FASD because the information and understanding is constantly being updated as the research continues. BOTH Psychopathy and FASD and Autism, etc are basically in their infancy of research and understanding.

          3. I think what Kohut was saying re narcissism, is that the narcissistic line of development is all about the slow realization that develops in a healthy individual that he is no longer the central controller of his universe where everyone else meets his needs first and foremost. The healthy developmental task of the narcissistic line is that I am still an important and valued person and at the same time just a small part of a much larger group that I both value and am valued by. I think Kohuts theory links into what you were saying last week J, about grandiosity needs continuing throughout the lifespan and Moore’s ideas about grandiosity. Kohut just didn’t see narcissism as the dirty word it has become, he didn’t see it as something that abruptly ends and the end of the oral stage, he saw it as a line of development that continues along an axis to self actualization- A freedom to be who one is with out overly relying on seeing one’s reflection in the eyes of others. (Perhaps a healthy sense of one’s grandness or grandiosity. Self actualization was an idea of Abraham Maslow I think and his ‘heirarchy of needs’). The Kohut narcissistic developmental line culminates in seeing others for the similarly self actualized beings they are and slowly moves away from the self-objects of infancy. Disruptions to the healthy development results in adults who have never moved beyond the stage where others are seen as self-objects. There is one snoring next to me as I type! I think many of these old school theorists have alot to offer us as well as the fact that their work has contributed to much of what we understand about psychology today. If we were psychology students we would be studying alot of them. Not just Freud, Jung, Piaget, Erikson. I think to understand abnormal psychology you need a reasonable grounding in normal development to see the contrasts. I’m waiting for Facing the Dragon to arrive in the mail.

          4. Puddle, I was reading some of Dr Janov’s writing yesterday on self love and something he said really made sense. He was saying that self love, apparently the objective of ‘normal’ development can only go so far. He says we never stop needing to receive love and that we cannot fully experience self love unless we receive love from others, hence we crave it our whole life. He says that love (physical, emotional, spiritual and sexual) from others is necessary for us to fully experience self love. So what I interpret this as in terms of what other theorists like Kohut say, and others, is that we never stop needing some form of validation of our self, from others our whole lives. I believe he is spot on.

          5. Juliette, I think you are right and that Janov is right, otherwise we are only loving ourselves through a limited subjective view. Sometimes other people (speaking for myself here) see things that are good in us that we don’t see ourselves. But once someone tells you what they see in you, (me), I can start to see it in myself.
            I had SUCH a skewed view of myself growing up and it came from so many different directions it’s hard to describe. Well, for example, very common with FASD, I had a “low” frustration tolerance and my FOO gave me plenty of reason to be frustrated. I had meltdowns and given the right conditions, I still do. I get mentally and emotionally overloaded fairly easily and when I do….it’s hard to describe but it’s as if this great big wide wind in my brain narrows to the size of an apple (just using apple because I’m eating one! LOL). My brain feels like a deer that is trapped in the corner of a fenced field and panics so badly it just runs right into the fence and flails. I could never put this into words until a couple years ago. I can actually FEEL my brain darting back and forth looking for help. I do wonder if that could have something to do with a common FASD corpus callosum problem. like my LH can’t find my RH or my RH can’t find what it needs in my LH. Like it can’t retrieve the necessary information of skills to regain equilibrium. So imagine what happens when someone is f’ing with your mind(Spathtard) or playing on an uneven playing field that makes no sense(Mommy Dearest). Meltdown…..
            The point of this description is that I NEVER understood it, no one was ever in a position to help me understand or change it and I took on a very warped self image with this at the top like a scarlet letter.
            Seems like SO long ago now but I remember this so clearly……I was talking with the mother of one of my high school boyFRIENDS……won’t bother to explain………and she said something along the lines of paying me as a person a compliment about ME. My response was to negate it immediately and say, “but you don’t really know me. I can get really upset and I’ve thrown things on more occasions than I can remember.” She said…..”Puddle, YOU don’t really know you! Thats not you!!” . That makes me cry just typing it Juliette. It might be the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me and it had SUCH a huge impact on me as well as many other things other people have helped me see and appreciate about myself. I am NOT vain at all and have never understood what men saw in me (well, thanks to Spathtard I think I have a better idea about some of them). It is so helpful to be valued by people who are not looking for a piece of WHATEVER!
            My Father has NEVER said that he loves me….not once. My mother valued me as a reflection on her and I failed her miserably. But I have been blessed in my adulthood (oddly this all began the first time I quit drinking) to have people in my life who have made up for what i missed in my childhood. Any self esteem I have has been a hard fought battle to acquire and hold on to and I’m sure that Spathtard knew exactly which chords to play.
            I hope some of that made sense………………

          6. Yes Puddle that did make sense. I used to have an excellent frustration tolerance and ability to reason when I was younger but now after a few decades of being traumatized it’s alot lower. There are just too many compartments in my personality now with differing viewpoints on any given situation, too many shards giving me a differing reflection angle, to use a metaphor. It’s the pts reaction that causes it. I have to do a type of family constellation discussion inside my head when faced with a big challenge. It’s time consuming and your example of a deer panicking is great and a I get a tangible feeling from it. I kind of have several deer darting besides a guy holding a taser! lol!, if you get what I mean. What you say about the left and right and fasd, makes sense too. It’s like there are two main options in that situation, to shut down or lose control. I call it being ‘Spiflicated’ (made up word that sounds like a feeling)…the mix of feelings that the Incredible Hulk has right when his clothes start to rip! Lol. It’s like the website inside your head crashes. What do you do when it happens. I usually have to curl up and just deep breathe for a while. Having to deal with all this BB stuff has given me a bad case of heart palpitations for the last two months that won’t go away. It’s coming together though, I’m almost there.
            🙂

          7. I’m glad you’ve taken inspiration from my words, Juliette. Absorbing Moore’s book you’re going to get another perspective.

          8. Now, healing isn’t straightforward. I don’t expect it to be. Let me still direct you a bit, please.

            On Youtube there’s a trauma release hypnosis video video by George Hutton. I don’t claim anything solves everything all at once. Even so, one time listening to that video can work wonders. If anything, I even dare recommend listening to it several times, perhaps every day at a fitting time for, say, three weeks. Free(it’s on Youtube after all).

          9. Thankyou J, I will have a look at it tomorrow when the house is quiet and I can cope with what it might make me feel. There is a bigger than usual volume of stuff coming to the surface in me at the moment. Probably from sharing some of my stories on here and doing the necessary work in therapy to move out of this toxic relationship with BB. 🙂

          10. Thankyou so much, I’m scared but I will do it tomorrow and let you know how it felt 🙂

          11. JULIETTE,
            Regarding your comment, “we never stop needing some form of validation of our self from others.”
            This hit me like a ton of bricks!
            After being discarded In the most horrendous way possible by my psychopathic ex I feel such a complete sense of utter invalidation that I don’t know if I will ever see my way out of it.

          12. Marsha, it is so painful and confusing what they do. They create a false sense of……fill in the blank…..and they systematically destroy it. I’m not the type who needs a LOT of validation about who I am as a person, like the real me, not anymore at my age, but he did something that is so hard to describe……….there are so many facets to is and it’s such a subjective experience. Somehow he made me feel more beautiful, more sexy, more good, more……..just over the top “more” and then simultaneously sent me the message that no matter, I can walk away in a heart beat, while all the while saying that this was forever. I don’t know…..it’s just so hard to describe………but you will get through it Marsha. You may never forgive him for what he did or forget but I do see the signs now that I am getting over it, finally moving through it. I would never have thought that was possible a year or so ago but it is happening.

          13. Juliette, can I have an update, please? How’s it gone with that George Hutton’s trauma release video?

  3. He also told me that I was the most genuine person he had ever known. At the time I thought it was a compliment, now I’m sure it was a cloaked slam.

  4. It seems like the charm is charming so long as the desired outcome is not challenged (more to them, less to you). So that could be a way of testing it: pay less attention to the charm, even ignore it, then see if it gets turned up a notch or two in an attempt to grab your attention back to them.

    1. Stephie,,,,,yes, something like that! If they are flattering you tell them you don’t like flattery and if they insist that it’s not flattery say well it feels like flattery to me and I don’t like it. I don’t mind a compliment now and then but this is too much for me. OR, ask them what they like about you besides your superficial qualities.
      Take away the manipulative crap and act Spathtard put on and there is nothing I really like about him, respect about him, admire about him. This ail be the first time in my life that I will have no further contact with someone I’ve dated. What does that tell you?

    2. Yes, it is 100% self seeking….in its entirety! When in this charm offensive phase, my experience is that whatever YOU do doesn’t matter, you could be as reciprocatingly wonderful to them, or you could act like an idiot…….. you could go so far as to defecate on the back seat of their car (though I personally wouldn’t recommend it) and they would ignore any erring on your part……so long as their end game of overall dominance, control and power to do as they please, as a result of their charm offensive, is satisfied.

      1. Danny, ……………as opposed to my confronting him about things I have a problem with. When you say these things Danny, I see the difference between what he was doing and how I was in the relationship (I ALWAYS question myself when i read about them……was I LIKE that? Is that what I DID??). I meant every word of what i complimented him about not knowing what he really was of course. I thought he was smart, sexy, handsome, fun, and more than anything I can’t tell you how many times I told him how much I valued US together and enjoyed being an US. It was NOT disposable to me at all. I wanted to “grow” us and build a life together. SOmeone forgot to tell me the secret rules he was playing by though and his ultimate objective.

      2. Lol, That’s so true Danny, there have been times when I’ve been pushed to the limit and acted not quite right (because I wasn’t!) early in our relationship when cracks appeared… I ran away for four days to get some space and think straight…. another time I got out of the car and refused to get back in and cried on the edge of a golf course in front of all the golfers. BB handled it all in his stride, the important thing was that I took the latest bait and didn’t leave.

  5. “Psychopaths and the other disturbed character types harboring the most malignant form of narcissism tend to exude a superficial charm or glibness in their interpersonal manner.”

    The autobiography and YouTube videos of, and news reports about, the Isla Vista mass murderer suggest his personality was both sadistic (psychopathic) and charmless (sociopathic). Further, said murderer was apparently a self-loathing narcissist.

    I’ve also heard some differences between psychopaths and sociopaths are, as follows:

    Psychopaths: charming, sadistic, cares about no one except for themselves, often professionally and socially successful.

    Sociopaths: often charmless, indifferent to the pain they cause others, cares about a few people who are closest to them, professionally and socially unsuccessful.

    So, my questions:

    1. Can the Isla Vista mass murderer have really been so conflicted and convoluted – that is, he was at once psychopathic, sociopathic, narcissistic, and self-loathing? Or might this apparent mirage be a deception and might he have been none of the above but, in fact, something else? Can he have been a psychopath, although he apparently lacked charm?

    2. What kind of structured environment can such an individual be placed, outside of prison or a (usually nonexistent) mental institution? The U.S. Congress and the state legislatures will not impose strictly enforced laws against personal gun ownership and use. Failing such laws, how can the worst impulses of such an individual be reigned in before he acts, if he does not live with an authority figure whose power he fears?

    1. I think self-loathing and narcissism are mutually exclusive. The whole point is their over-inflated view of themselves, and under-inflated view of others. Psychopaths are narcissists that actually enjoy doing harm to others. A narcissist doesn’t set-out to injure – though they have no compunction with that if you are in their way.

      I’ve read that personality disorders are typically co-morbid. They may be predominantly one, but have a touch of this and a tad of that. Dr. Simon mentioned the Isla Vista nut in his article on Paranoid Personality Disorder. Makes for an especially pernicious character.

      Where to put them…..good question. Incarcerate the dangerous ones, and educate the public on what to look for so the victim pool can be decreased.

      1. I agree Einstein, that the two are mutually exclusive. Elliot Rodger was indeed a high grade narcissist. He does admit he has become twisted many times but you never hear him loathing himself. He often reminds himself and us how supremely wonderful he is and can’t fathom why other people can’t see this. Now that I’ve read the book The Game about the online secret society of Pick Up Artists, which Elliot was quite involved in, I’m seeing how alot of his misogyny and observations about men and women, came from this scene. He did many of the things that the pick up artists advise guys like him to do. I think he was suffering wounded narcissism, which classically causes rage in itself, let alone any other reasons he felt an inner rage. I don’t feel qualified to comment on the gun/risk issue in the US, except to say that since we banned automatic weapons in Australia after our first ever spree shooting at Port Arthur in 1996, there hasn’t been even one since. That’s got to count for something. It looks to me as an outsider that the land of the brave and home of the free is becoming the land of those who now tremble in fear, guns cocked at the ready.

        1. Re: Guns, the banning of, violence/ mass murder prevention, etc, etc, etc……….
          NOT what it seems. All you have to do is look at all the bombings, IED’s etc. to see that a gun is not required to commit mass murder. Oklahoma bombing too.
          In a school situation, a kid could plow a car into a crowd of students.
          My socio bro Loved to blow up stuff. He made pipe bombs just for fun but never used them against people………..he easily could have though but he is not THAT type of sociopath and not a psychopath. Personally, the only thing that evens the “playing field” for me as a woman at least attempting to protect myself against a male is a big dog and a gun. Done

          1. I agree Puddle, that the dog and the gun make a stable person like you sleep better at night, but having guns so easy to get hold of without proving your mental stability for others in the population is a bad thing I think. I can guarantee you that I would have committed murder on the PPD ex, if guns were easy to get hold of in Australia. But then he probably would have killed me with one too! I would maybe have done 5-10 years in jail and my family would not be what it was today. Thankfully it was hard for me and that gave me time to look at other options, like ummm….Get Help!!..I still don’t feel stable enough to own a gun, I probably never will be and I doubt that if I ever applied for one, I would be allowed to anyway. Rules here are tighter and it’s a good thing. So women like me make friends with guys who can come and rescue them if need be, like the one I described earlier as my guardian. As for mass murderers like Elliot Rodger, its a whole lot harder to get hold of materials to make bombs, although not impossible, its risky and most socio/psycho’s are probably too scared to play with fire like that in case they blow themselves up. It’s definitely easier and safer to go to a gun shop, purchase one and the ammunition and a within a few seconds later if you so please, do what ever you want with it. What I find fascinating though is the town in the US I think it’s in Georgia? That made gun ownership compulsory and went down to a zero crime rate. That’s fascinating although I don’t think you can really compare the urban life in the US with the dynamics of a smaller place like that.

  6. “As for mass murderers like Elliot Rodger, its a whole lot harder to get hold of materials to make bombs, although not impossible, its risky and most socio/psycho’s are probably too scared to play with fire like that in case they blow themselves up. It’s definitely easier and safer to go to a gun shop, purchase one and the ammunition and a within a few seconds later if you so please, do what ever you want with it.”

    totally disagree. My brother was making pipe bombs before he was 16! components are cheap and readily available. I’m not talking about some kind of sophisticated ticking device and look at all the people killed with IED’s in Iraq. They take no money hardly at all, very crude and way less than to buy a gun (legally). I know there are not tight enough parameters though, i hear you but the answer is not to prevent honest people from protecting them selves the answer is way more complicated than that.
    BTW, All Spathtard has to do is look to the fact that I do own gunS….many of them, know how to use them VERY well and never even considered harming him. MY idea of revenge/ justice would involve humiliation and exposure and i have not put that weapon down.

    “What I find fascinating though is the town in the US I think it’s in Georgia? That made gun ownership compulsory and went down to a zero crime rate. That’s fascinating although I don’t think you can really compare the urban life in the US with the dynamics of a smaller place like that.”

    I’ve never heard of this Georgia compulsory gun ownership thing. If you have a link I’d be interested. Is it Sweden or Switzerland that it is compulsory to own a gun AND join the armed forces? Am I making that up?

    1. and my socio brother along with his little band of sociobuddies had no fear…..Sociopaths and psychopaths are very fearless and bold

    2. Its Kennesaw Georgia, on this wiki link about the weapons effect it talks about it in the reverse weapons effect section. J, pointed out this Berkowitz theory to me. Very interesting, I don’t think it provides any definitive answer but still interesting! It was a zero homicide rate not zero crime, after re reading it just now. My first ex, the one who died at birth also used to make pipe bombs from a young age and well into adulthood, he loved letting them off in the garden and hearing and watching the police drive up and down the street looking for the source.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_effect

      1. Thanks Puddle, I have never heard of any of that on Switzerland. It’s really fascinating that increased gun ownership causes lower crime/homicide rates in other countries. As well as that the swiss train their citizens better, in the handling of the weapons too. Amazing. Especially given they are such an ‘enlightened’ nation. Like I saw a piece on tv recently on how parents there get 400 plus days of paid parental leave to bond with and raise their children in their early development. This can be shared between the two parents too. So the US seems to be in some sort of cultural crisis that causes violence and often madness directed at others. Australia has the same problem with violence, we just don’t have spree shootings though but lots and too much senseless violence everyday.

        1. ” As well as that the swiss train their citizens better, in the handling of the weapons too. Amazing.”
          Responsible gun ownership and handling is just a whole different animal. THAT is why so many people are opposed to gun control. It’s basically saying, because these other low lifes and morons are a threat with a gun, you as a responsible gun owner don’t have a right to own a gun. So take that and translate it into drunk driving deaths or medical malpractice (which supposedly kills WAY more people than guns do). Should we abolish cars so no one can drive drunk? Or why not get rid of alcohol all together? Or take away doctors so there are none to practice medicine poorly? I don’t think that any of these examples is going to happen. OK….no more gun chat, eh?

        2. it’s really crazy Juliette…..all the violence. I honestly don’t know what the answer is. Some say it’s all do to a squeeze on the resources, too many people, not enough jobs, resources, etc. AND greed.

      2. yes, shades of my brother for sure, he was a force to be reckoned with. My poor mother……..she was the perfect daughter, did EVERYTHING that was expected of her……and she adopted us two delinquents!! I was certainly not in my brothers league by any stretch but with my penchant for alcohol, and my refusal to be molded into mini mom, I came with my own set of “issues” for sure. She was just not a happy camper. Very sad. Neither one of my parents were BAD people, just ill-equipped to be parents.

        1. I’ve been thinking about the fact that if you read the above article by Dr Simon and imagined he was talking about politicians and voters, instead of relationships in general, that we are all living in a society where manipulation and all that it entails, is just a normal, accepted everyday thing. Our current leader in Australia is a despicable, repulsive example of this type of person. It seems that manipulation pays in our society on a macro level and we eat up this rubbish from our leaders every day. When they break promises or are in opposition, the avoiding of truth, indirect answers, blame shifting all of it is just plain and simple covert aggression. So perhaps if one wants to practice not being manipulated, all we have to do is tune into parliament question time and watch for the incongruence between verbal and non verbal cues…you know…like homework!

          1. This is very true Juliette. I’m aged a couple of months from reaching my half century and was raised from a young age to treat others with respect at all times – however and whenever and wherever possible. An answer is not worth giving if it doesn’t or cannot produce something good, something favourable for all. I’ve been more than astonished at how much the landscape has changed amongst pretty well ALL politicians, various celebrities and other high profile media savvy public individuals, in terms of the way they will openly manipulate and treat with such a degree of disdain and derision and ridicule members of the public to whom they will address their comments…..on whatever the offered or given subject. So, yes, I agree, we are all being trained, we are all being brainwashed to view and use manipulation as the norm, as one of a number of ‘necessary’ tools of communication when interacting with each other. But it shouldn’t be so! This for me is terribly dispiriting. Those age old values associated with having good character, honesty, kindness, trustworthiness, steadfast, faithful, upright, honourable, dependable, principled…….have all of a sudden (over the last one or two generations, which for me is highly worrying) become valueless, consigned to history as having no place in the modern world.
            This trend desperately needs reversing!!!! How, I haven’t got a clue……

          2. absolutely Juliette. again, it goes to greed. I want what I want and I will do anything to get it, screw everyone and anyone else.

          3. People Power is a difficult thing to muster. My Father used to say to me when I was younger, that if housewives formed an independent ‘Union’ that it would begin to rule the world! When I seriously thought about it I realized that the inherent power to influence, promote or boycott various companies and political parties would in the end lead the person who lead it, to being assassinated. Lol.

    3. I think a lot of you are confusing “Psychopaths with Psychotics.”

      Two different personality disorders. You will find many Psychopaths to be law abiding citizens (they just know how to manipulate and skirt the law).

      1. Hi Jungle Jim, Honestly, I think most of us are pretty clear about that. There may be a few who have posted in the past who aren’t but for the most of us we do understand the difference Actually Psychosis is not a personality disorder, it’s a byproduct of mental illness and sometimes other illness. I have seen a psychopath behave in a way that borders something that could mistakenly be called psychotic but it was all part of their game.

        1. I was about to respond to Jungle Jim when I saw your reply, Puddle. I never ceased to be amazed at the sophistication of the readers on this blog! Great answer. And a good intro into on of the future articles in current series.

  7. Kennesaw GA
    The town is noted for its unusual gun legislation. In 1982 the city passed an ordinance [Sec 34-21][19]

    (a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the city, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the city limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore.

    (b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony.

    This is a silly law. You can not mandate that someone USES a gun or is proficient with a gun,,,,,just dumb! Oh well…….”It’s the law in Kennesaw”…..their little motto. Oh brother…..

    AND it is Switzerland I was thinking about…….
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

    1. I don’t get it either Puddle, it infuriates me beyond reason to hear of the sentences offenders like this get. It just has to go to the fact that the concept of an eye for an eye, lex talionis, which our justice system is supposed to be based on, reveals in the fact, that a victims life is just not worth the same as that of the offender. She is female he is male. He may have more to offer society, she has little more to offer than the undervalued object that society sees her as. There’s no argument that can convince me otherwise. I know that men get victimized by offenders too but in these situations of psychos against women, the women (and children) just aren’t valued they way they should be. Laws created, executed and administered by men that make it very difficult for women to gain positions of power in their heirarchies. Our current Australian government has one female on the cabinet. That says it all. If that guy who stabbed that women was in Australia he would have got a cup of tea and a magazine and at least half of the 28yrs he got in the US and be out in 6 with good behaviour. I am ashamed to be an Australian at present. Off I go on my soapbox now…. time to shut up!

      1. Yes, Juliette, it’s much different here as far as women in positions of power but still……it’s just not right someone who did that gets anything but life in prison. You don’t fix someone that messed up OBVIOUSLY his prior encounters with the law didn’t have an impact. So yeah…….I’m really looking forward to meeting the next person I hire to do something…..crikey!

        1. Puddle, I ALWAYS hire the ‘Grey Army’ for anything I can’t fix myself. They are retired tradesmen, Grandads, all police checked, doing a bit of part time work to supplement their retirement income. Not one hundred percent guaranteed safety but a much better risk..and they do a much better job because they aren’t in a hurry and are usually perfectionists.

          1. Interesting! The Grey Army! I love it. I don’t think we have a Grey Army here!
            I have hired some real questionable people since I have lived here……I see this now 🙁

      2. You know, I look at the close up picture of that guy and there is no way I would not hire him if he cam recommended to me by someone I knew and trusted and it was her MOTHER who recommended him! Just incredible.
        So,,,,,,no one did a background check on him obviously. I’m sure just a simple one would have revealed something but he could have given a false name. He didn’t and that speaks to how bold and fearless these types are. just bizarre.

  8. this is something I’ve been trying to put into words and SHE did it.

    “”I do understand that someone that thinks like that doesn’t have the same kind of thinking we do, so possibly even if we do come up with something, or some motive was said, it would not make sense to us,” explained Hill.

    “Your intuition is real, we are not making that up, and we are not just feeling those funny things because you have made that up in your mind. I have also learned as women we tend to downplay situations,” Hill said. “We also tend to make sure we’re not rude, make sure we’re doing what’s polite. And I think that can get us in bad situations.”

    Hill said even though telling her story is tough, it’s important to share.

    “I feel like for me to help or to feel better, I need to get the education that I’m learning to process it all. So that I can help others so other people don’t get in that situation,” said Hill.

    1. Hi Puddle, I had a look at the link. So accurate what you are pointing out. Lots of things can leave our normal defenses down too, in a situation, as well as ignoring our intuition at the danger points. Maybe this lady had a little more confidence in herself from knowing martial arts beforehand. As well as the fact she was in a hurry and the guy was young. This really made me think of the time I got away from the rapist. I overestimated my abilities when I took the risk that ended me up being in an isolated spot with him. Once my sense of danger had kicked in, it was too late, I was trapped. What did save me was staying in control of my emotions. I knew the moment that I initiated flight response that the predator in him would fully surface for the kill. It sounds like I calculated this but I didn’t. It was coming second by second from my deep subconscious. I pretended I didn’t realise what he was trying to do. Freeze response really. We went round and round in circles psychologically for hours, me just buying another minute at a time until he finally decided he was sick of whatever was going on and wouldn’t stop when he tried to overpower me physically like he had all the other times. It came to me a few seconds after I realized this was it, to ask him if I looked sick to him. It made him ease up on the neck and the pressure he had on top of my body. I told him that I was HIV positive, (which I’m not) and as I had been saying thats why I don’t have sex with strangers. He reeled back in shock and lost control of the situation again.

      Just thought I’d throw that one out there for any person in a frightening situation of assault. No one wants your blood on them when you are HIV positive but it has to be believable when you say it. I didn’t mentally rehearse it, I had never thought of that before in my life, it just occurred to me in that moment and it worked. He got up, went around and stood in front of his number plate and I knew he had decided to let me go AND that he had done it before and would do it again. I had to calmly walk to the bridge still pretending that I was not terrified and fighting for my life whilst he followed me there and say goodbye and wish him well like a naive deer until I flagged a taxi down as the sun was coming up and got in and lost the plot.

      1. Juliette……you are so fortunate. over and over and over. But you are SMART,,,,,,quick thinking, not that it would help in every situation but it has in yours. I hate it that people like this exist in the world and i hate it that I am weaker, smaller, slower that someone who might try to pull something on me. when I drank, that was another HUGE vulnerability, but it was a self induced vulnerability although when in the throws of an “addiction” it’s very hard to say how much control you have over ANYthing. i was damned lucky, thats all, lucky to the extent that I was. I was in a couple tight spots and a couple very uncomfortable situations. In retrospect I was probably in more danger than I realized and even luckier than I realize now. I don’t ever want to be that lost again.

        1. Yes Puddle, I’ll never know for sure but I’m pretty sure I would have ended up in that river. Great reason to stay sober yes. It’s good to hear you say how strong you are now, not being addicted and being in that fog of everything being fine. When I look back alot of it was just pure luck too, like you say. He could have knocked me out at any stage too but a mouse isn’t so much fun for the cat when its not moving. I think we all feel that way, that it’s not fair that we must live with disturbed characters and maybe the reason people try not to traumatize their children by letting them know just how cruel and dangerous people out there can be. Maybe why we grow up having no idea at all. Kids need to know that manipulative and cruel people exist, not just paedophile and stranger dangers. The vast majority of abuse is committed by people known to the victim. Vast majority. At least you are allowed to sleep with a gun in your country. I’m sure there are lots of women in the US who are alot saner because of that fact.

          1. My psychologist said to me today, unless you have been manipulated by a manipulative narcissist before, no one can ever see it coming, there’s just no way of learning that unless it’s happened to you. So you are right Puddle, well a clinical psychologist in Australia thinks so anyway.

          2. I had gun(S) before this ever happened and would not even think twice about defending myself if given the situation but nothing is fool proof. In fact, one of the Investigation Discovery shows I watched was about this man who was a HUGE pro gun collector blah blah blah……dripping in guns. He let someone he knew and their friend into the house and was killed with a knife. bizarre.

          3. the thing is,,,,,,IN THE MOMENT,,,,,,,, How do you react? this was a decision she made, to let him into her house. the only misgivings she had about doing it was that she was on a time schedule and had to be mindful of that. She didn’t say anything about any serious misgivings at all. even the feeling she got that was bad or odd wasn’t until she was most of the way down the stairs. I swear……NO ONE is coming in my house from now on. arrrrgh!

          4. Me too! I won’t even open my screen door to the Jehova’s Witnesses! I think that subconsciously she was trusting her Mother too. He probably lined her up for being a target at the meeting with her Mother. That was his first ‘IN’ defenses down step to his game I believe. Might be a good business idea for someone in the US to start a Grey Army.

          5. You know what Juliette? I do have guns but it does not necessarily make me feel safe for some reason, maybe a little bit more so?? Maybe….but not safe enough. Like you say, it’s often someone you know which blows my mind absolutely. I’m in the process of posting my driveway with no trespassing signs and possible a gate of some sort. Even before all of this I have never liked unannounced visitors, it really bothers me mentally and I always feel this pressure to interact with them even if I’m just not into it. It throws me off mentally and disrupts my rhythm for the day which I have a hard enough time maintaining.

  9. Juliette,,,,,,that is SO funny you just mentioned the JW’s!! Last weekend my friend’s son and I were here shooting……long story…… and we had JUST finished about five minutes before this JW man pulled in my driveway. I told him in no uncertain terms that they are NOT to come on my property, that I have a guard dog in training who just happened to be inside at the time, darn it, and if they came back again I would call the sheriff (thats all I seem to do lately, LOL). I sure wish he would have been a couple minutes earlier.
    A friend of mine’s wife answered the door one time when they came calling and told them the person they needed to talk to was her husband because he was the head of the household. Told them that they could find him around back cleaning the pool which was exactly what he was doing……………..naked. BOTH of this couple are a riot and just so in your face hysterical it’s painful being around them because it NEVER stops!

    1. Thats how the woodsman got the sheriff called on him. I told him repeatedly to not come over without calling and he kept doing it and doing it……..last time I called the cops. Forget it buddy…..just good bye forever. How rude and inconsiderate to have a woman ask you and then tell you to not come on her property unannounced and then do it anyhow? Idiot.

      1. The Woodsman was some kind of creep by the sounds of it to not respect your wishes, you did the right thing. A big dangerous dog sign, enter at own risk could be helpful too. That’s very funny about the JW’s, I get all conflicted about religious callers because there are worse people in the world but I still resent their tenacity when calling back all the time and feeling they have the right to invade peoples personal space, uninvited.

        1. They are zealots! Some will stop at nothing.

          The woodsman ALSO directly disregarded my request to not mention the fact that I was leaving town in front of his helper (who I had never met before). First words out of his mouth when he got here, in front of his helper was…..”So Puddle, your not going to be here for Easter right? I just wanted to wish you a happy Easter.” Well, Easter was in three days……..It was a direct finger flip at my request to not mention I was going to be out of town. THEN, he stacked the wood in the exact place I told him not to! THEN, after I told him I was probably going to take a nap because I had not slept well the night before, he waited just long enough for me to fall asleep and came knocking at my back door asking for a “small glass of water for his helper”!
          This guy is SO off my Christmas card list!! Unreal. Apparently I wounded his little narcissistic ego with my requests, he stewed on it and decided it was payback time. SO childish. There is SO much more to this story but the story is over. Now that the cops have told him to stay off my property if he comes back he will be arrested or shot for stalking which is pretty much what he was doing. people like this creep me out because they lock on to the most minute “offense” to their fragile egos and do not let go.

          1. Hmmm, red flags all round, back, front and sideways!!! See, you saw it instead of dismissing it and didn’t worry how his felt about your boundaries, or whether he cared to explain your ‘over reaction’, you just went…’deal with it’. Well done Puddle you just identified yourself to a Wolf as someone not worth the effort.

          2. Not so fast…….
            The rest of the story……..I had told him that this whole project (which was supposed to have been done two years ago) ended up being on the worst possible day because I was going to be packing my car for the trip (pretty obvious i was leaving town, yeah??). He assured me they would be done by 2:00 and I would have plenty of time to pack when they left and the next morning which was the day I was leaving(Friday). So after being woken up from my nap once, I reset my timer and fell back asleep I woke up THIS time at 1:30 and didn’t hear anything so I got up and looked outside to see if they had finished early and already left. There was his tractor, gas can, etc……I’m thinking what in the world is going on?? Still some brush laying around, equipment…….What is going on?? This was suposed to be a one day job, three trees that were already down to me cut up….did they go to LUNCH?? but the are finishing by 2:00? Why would they go to lunch now? so I call him on the phone which is busy so I know he is there…..busy busy till around 3:30 I finally get through and ask him what is going on? “Oh! We just have about an hours work left tomorrow morning”. WHAT?? I tell him….WE?? Who is we? “Me and my helper”! OH NO….you are not coming back tomorrow morning with your helper Woodsman, I’m going to be leaving tomorrow morning! WTF? And this devolved into a total battle royal with him talking out his bum, making stuff up, lying, discounting my concerns, discounting the whole thing with Spathtard, on and on and on……..I told him to come and get his tractor and equipment off my property immediately which of course he did not do until the next morning when I was supposed to be leaving…….
            I was so undone and upset and my eyes were so trashed I couldn’t even conceive of driving for 1000 miles…..BUT, Finally with my travel companions help, a shower and some aspirin I was able to leave but six hours later than we were supposed to.
            It was bizarre, the whole thing was bizarre, I have known this guy for 6 years, been quasi friends with him, all above board. then this. So I leave for a week, am back for two weeks and then bam…..he pulls onto my property with out calling. Called the cops.

          3. You know, his basic message to me in all of this was YOU are NOT going to tell ME what and what not I can do or when I can do it, I don’t respect you or your property! I’m C.A. Woodsman and NO woman tells ME what to do or not do!!
            Yeah, by the way……he HATES his mother but of course lives right across the street from her and seemingly forever bound to her in this hateful weird mother / son relationship

  10. “Discounting the whole thing with Spathard?’ Does that mean he was in on your private life via Spathard?

    1. like I said…..we WERE “friends” and he new almost every detail of the whole mess because when I was at my depths I spilled my guts to just about anyone who would listen.

      1. Ok I understand, ‘CA…no woman tells me what to do’ sums it up very well….and ‘I don’t care if it stresses the heck out of her I’m doing what I want’. I’m going to try my hardest not to spill my guts to anyone when all this is over. It’s a hard thing to do though, we just want validation and when you have been through the grinder with a manipulator, you feel all damaged especially at first and feel the need to explain to people ‘I didn’t used to be like this you know’, because you feel like a shadow of your former self. Yesterday I was feeling like I’m an idiot, after telling my psych some stories about how the trust got damaged early on in our relationship because she had asked me for some examples so that she could get her head around what is ‘old’ stuff and what I’m dealing with currently. After the session, I just walked out and felt like an idiot. I saw the look on her face, this normal woman with good self esteem who would have ended the relationship then and there if these things had happened to her, looked at me with a horrified disgusted look on her face (towards him probably) and I just felt like a complete idiot. All these things that he has and hasn’t done have just slowly eroded my worth one grain at a time for 5 years. I just wasted 5 years of my life and aged about ten. In my heart I know I’m not an idiot but my head logically tells me, with the benefit of hindsight that I clearly was.

  11. In the words of Bambam the narcissist…”If I went to sleep and didn’t wake up, I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it”. That was his final word on the matter this-evening, after five hours of intense manipulation, Charm Offensive and Offensive Charm that didn’t get the expected results. I rest my case.

      1. No, not at all. We went through the entire alphabet of tactics except direct violence. From an overseas holiday, misery, sarcasm, hopelessness, a domestic holiday, guilt, humour, silence, pressure, blaming, careful threats, interrogation, power trips among many others. This went for almost 5 hours. I did not engage, No. Then out of the blue whilst looking at the TV on his lounge nest, he said it quite matter of factly. I had to try really, really hard not to laugh, good thing the room was darkish and said, ‘that doesn’t make sense BB’. There was a silence tactic after that but were all better today, ‘bye bye darling, I love you’, from him thismorning.

          1. Juliette. that is one of the things that occurred to me after the fact, something I could have said…….”that just doesn’t make sense Spathtard”. Or in response to the endless “I love you’s” to just say, thats not what your actions are telling me Spathtard.

          2. Puddle, I agree, love is an action, not a word. We don’t answer back on that one because we will start a painful conflict. No wonder we start acting and sounding like them. That;s exactly what he said to you, remember? The me, myself or I post. Same words…totally differing meanings coming from the CA though.

          3. Juliette, I’m not following you,,,,,sorry!
            What I do know is that when he told me that I didn’t know what love was……that it was something you feel in your heart for someone….. In retrospect I could have said…….what good is that to the other person that you supposedly love?? What if you LOVE your child and don’t feed, clothe, nurture them etc?? What about a dog that you just LOVE but leave it chained to a tree in the back yard?? I’m sorry,,,,,,WHO doesn’t know what the word means Spathtard?? I do and do and do for you and THIS is the thanks I get?? Remember Puddle…….this was NEVER a relationship…..it was HIS gig not yours,,,,,,,,you just got drugged and thrown in the car to entertain the driver. You look so cute when your manipulated Puddle!

          4. ……yes,,,,,,the empirical “WE”………His Highness would like to inform the staff that we are feeling much better this morning and have decides that we would like breakfast on the veranda. You upset us greatly yesterday by ignoring us and we would like you to make up for that by fixing us breakfast on the veranda…….

          5. Hi Puddle, when we were discussing your psychiatrist and Elliot Rodger on the Rare and Dangerous PD article just under where we were talking about drug companies etc you were describing how Spathard said ‘I know you think you love me, but I don’t think you really do’ and I made the comment about ‘which one, me, myself or I?’. I was thinking how that’s the exact conclusion and thing that abused partners start saying but for entirely different reasons, like those you describe above. The behaviour that gets directed towards you brings out behaviour in the victim that starts to ‘look’ as crazy as that of the abuser. That’s why we think we are going crazy before the veil of confusion is lifted.

            BB went to his first ever session with a psychotherapist yesterday, which he initiated. He wants couples counselling, but the guy wanted to see him alone first. I didn’t pump him for information about it at all when he came home but he disclosed what they talked about non stop, most likely because he is on an all out impression management assault on me. This is his last ditch effort to save the relationship and his own neck. So he has already lied to the guy about his history in the first session and then tried to bind me to the lie by telling me, even though I explained to him several times that in order to get the most from the experience he should be honest. He went to great pains to tell him everything in advance that he thinks I’m going to tell him when the guy gets me alone. Eg, Some of the big whopper lies that he has destroyed the trust in the relationship with, other vile behaviours that have destroyed my self esteem and confidence and god knows what else he said to the guy. It’s my turn next week to go alone. So what he has effectively done, as BB always tries to stay one step ahead of everything, is thwart my escape plan by forcing me into a situation of having to lie or fess up to what’s really on my mind, because he knows I won’t lie to a therapist. Put me on the spot (as he always does), whilst maintaining the impression that he is finally, after all the times I have suggested it for four years, finally doing counselling to make this communication, lying, avoidance, blaming, ignorance, manipulation problem of his ‘better’. This is all come about since I have read Dr Simon’s books and been responding differently and not engaging in the tactics. So I am going to go, not to engage in the relationship rescue attempt but to take from it what I need to feel safe, if that’s even possible. Thanks for listening Puddle, I’ve really got no one besides my daughter and fortnightly visits to the psych atm. 🙂

          6. LOL on the breakfast on the verandah!! That really made me laugh out loud…so perfectly describing how the narcissist’s world view and attitude makes subjects of everyone…. ‘Would you care to join me, my subject, I really am a compassionate and fair master you know?’

          7. So Juliette,,,,you go next and just tell the truth, ya know? And if this counselor doesn’t seem to “get it” Then you say you want your therapist there as well? WOuld it work? I don’t know!!
            Sorry I wasn’t following you earlier, I wasn’t clear what comment you were referring to. Yes,,,,there were many Spathtards, like probably none of them were real except the worn out, worn down pig sitting at the bar thinking he is sooooooo clever. I just ran into ANOTHER person yesterday, who knows him (and me in the past) and he said HE though Spathtard was weird. This makes five people who have said this,,,,weird, creepy, bisexual, looser,,,,,,this guy just could hardly come up with words to describe how messed up it was that he lives in mommys basement……he just really was just baffled.

          8. Thanks Puddle, I will. I’ve already looked at his website and he looks like a very ‘switched on’ guy. He specializes in men stuff and couples counselling. His name is Noel Giblett. He talks alot about how men have come to objectify women and he is just the guy to get BB through what he is about to experience. I’m going to make sure he gets the picture that he is engaging with a CA manipulator for sure, so at least his antenna will be on. He can probably tell already but I will be careful to ensure I can trust him before I spill the beans about me. Re Spathard..It’s weird how people wait till you have been spat out hard and hurt until they all come clean about their thoughts. It’s like there is this unwritten code that people shouldn’t interfere in the CA’s right to his own smooth manouvres. You might get a half honest run down from a former victim if you are lucky enough to meet one, but how rare is that. Like I said before, that basement is really symbolic of the return to the dark barren womb, totally.

          9. Juliette,,,,,,I boldly did speak to one of his ex’s sisters and she more than confirmed my suspicions but was also very measured about what she said. This ex (there are more) is the one who got him arrested for DV. I will try to give you the run down when I can wrap my head around typing it! I STILL didn’t throw in the towel because she was not super specific but just the fact that she spoke with me AT LENGTH, speaks volumes. Also, problem being……when I had the stones to call her…….I had been drinking. It was my one “slip” in two years.
            This councilor sounds like he has great potential and you are armed with knowledge so that when you talk to him you can point out what you are seeing and experiencing. You never know…..maybe BamBam will have a breakthrough……..you never know. It was hopeless with Spathtard but sure did give him something he could carry around the rest of his life as an excuse :I even went to concealing with her”! Yet another calculated risk he took……more story than I can type goes with all of this.

          10. Puddle, I think people are careful not to get involved and are probably intimidated themselves by the Spath to some degree. He won’t have a breakthrough and if he does, I don’t have any more years to devote to fixing him. 50 yo narcissists don’t change overnight and he has no tools yet either. It would take him so long to even get the tools, let alone make up for 45 years of developmental tasks since the narcissistic stage. I can’t forgive him for some of the things he has done or excuse them and I certainly can’t trust anything he says or does. He has only done this last ditch effort because he knows it’s doomed and he’s buying some more manipulation time. Everyone in his world is a self-object not a human being and he has so far been completely incapable of proper remorse for anyone but himself. ‘I shot myself in the foot, I f@$ed things for myself haven’t I, I won’t lose any sleep over it, if I don’t wake up’, he can say the word sorry sometimes but there is no emotion or true remorse for what he has done. He has never cheated on me (that I know of), he’s too lazy for a start. I’ll give you one example that freaks me out of the kind of lie he is prepared to go to. We had a pup, BB got up one morning from the bed, before returning, to go to the toilet and let him in the house, shortly thereafter I smelled the feint odour of beloved $4000 gold plated puppy poo wafting down the hallway. I said dratz the pup has pooed I can smell it, I’d better get up. BB goes ‘no its ok I’ll do it and gets up, I’m thinking, he won’t do it properly I’d better get up. BB is back in the bed very quickly. I say..Was it bad…he says no it was on the tiles, I just picked it up with newspaper there’s not much left on the floor. I say ‘thanks good on you, I’ll wash the floor after my coffee. I’m thinking how good he is doing his share of the puppy parenting. He goes to put his hand in between my legs..before I let him I say have you washed your hands! Yeah! I say No you didn’t! Yes I did, No YOU DIDNT…Yes I did..This goes back and forward for 20 times at least. I say I didn’t hear the water running in the sink. He says I did. I get up and look in both sinks…The bastid didn’t wash his hands!! and was going to put them where the sun don’t shine and that just makes me sick and shows me just how much he really sees me as a human being. That’s just one story of neglect…the list goes on and on and on. He’s never going to turn a corner or have a breakthrough. He is a narcissist, bully, selfish, glutton that doesn’t feel empathy properly. Good luck to his therapist, I hereby resign from the role. But thanks for being positive Puddle, I appreciate it. Now you may have a slightly better understanding. Leopards like that don’t change their spots in a hurry. :-)))

          11. Both sinks were bone dry from the night before, I go back to bed and say no you didn’t that’s disgusting, he says Sorry!!:-)))hahaha and laughs.

          12. It was weird……we met his ex sister in law and her husband for dinner when they were in the area on vacation. It was so very bizarre……..the whole time I was thinking that it was the husband that was the brother of his ex and it turned out to be the wife that was the sister of his ex. And THAT explained why the entire time we were out to dinner she barely looked at him let alone spoke to him. she sat across the table from me and spoke to ME! I thought she was just being nice and trying to make me feel comfortable, knowing I was the “odd man out”. NOT! Even her husband who is kind of buddies with spathtard (from what spathtard has said) and is the brother of Spathtards friend…..he really didn’t exactly talk WITH Spathtard, more like he just talked……non stop. It was a bizarre evening. Later on when I was talking to Spathtard about something or other…..he said something that kind of clicked in my head and I was like………..OH!!!! So SHE is your exwife’s sister?? I thought HE was your exwifes brother!! Too weird…..
            SO anyhow…..I did not understand clearly and then we had some discussion about their last name and I finally understood what I had’nt understood. ANYhow,,,,,,,,maybe a couple weeks after this meeting, we had a big fight and I ended up drinking……All of a sudden I thought, you know what? I’m going to call her IF I can find their # online but I could not remember their name again,,,,,its a weird name kind of and there is some deal about the way it’s spelled vs the way it is pronounced and I really had to think about it for quite a while and then it finally came back…..I got on the computer, looked it up and called her. HE (the husband) answered and I asked for her (the ex’s sister) and we chatted for about an hour.
            Now, the weird part is that Spathtard ended up coming over later that evening and went to set the alarm for the next morning on my phone and when he woke up my phone, there the number was because it was the last thing i had open on my phone when I turned it off. He comes into the bedroom and says, why do you have X&X’s number? Did you call them?? I just sat there and looked at the bed. I was scared poopless and had been drinking, etc, etc, etc……..and that was it! nothing more about it. a day or two later I said to him, Spathtard, I need to be honest with you about something,,,,,,I did call X……..he just kind of blew it off (THEN) but then months later during the death throws phase he threw it up at me as if I had done some horrible thing and he also accused me of “milking him” for their number knowing that I would call them the next time we had a fight! “PREMEDITATED”, he declared! Like he was some a tourney! LOL! I never milked him for their number!! I’m the one who looked it up on the internet and was barely able to do that until I finally remembered their name!
            these stories are just so hard to even tell…..just turn my stomach.

          13. Juliette, that is a disgusting story,,,,,what a childish sick pig. I’ve often wondered all kinds of things about things like what you described that BB did, things I never knew about,,,,wondered what exactly was hidden from me, pulled over on me,,,,,,,,I can’t begin to say how sad that makes me,,,,,,,to know that I was played for a fool and that I was one.

          14. Puddle, here’s what I see about that dinner story. He most likely trotted you out to the ex’s sister hoping it would get back to her, (and hurt her feelings…a big of satisfaction from knowing he had moved on to a better model at least), why otherwise would he be motivated to go to dinner with you and them? Maybe as a win win situation the added bonus of giving you you the impression of what a nice guy he is, so much so, that past people still like him and of course when you know about the DV story, (if you did then or not it doesn’t matter you’re going to find out one day), when you know about the DV story you are going to believe his side of the minimized truth because ‘see her family still like me’ it’s her that is a nutter. The couple obviously weren’t liking him at all but he is so focused on the impression management that he is having a ball. Also the phone…Why was it your phone that needed to be set for the alarm, doesn’t his work or did he conveniently forget to bring it when at your place? Or… is that his weak excuse for getting to snoop in your phone or to get you used to the idea of seeing your phone in his hands?
            I wonder about all the things I don’t know too…the possibilities are endless, it turns my stomach and is very humiliating to know you have been treated like that, like an insignificant worthless rag, then you stand up and assert your true worth and get knocked down for it. So there is an awareness in them of what they are doing otherwise they would say…’OMG!!! I’m so sorry!! I can’t believe I did that to you..it will never happen again, I’m so sososososo sorry, please forgive me’..but no they feel you say ‘Excuse me, I am worth so much more than they way you treat me’ and they say effectively ‘Shut up, no you aren’t, what on earth ever gave you that impression…’ with their tactics. Then when they think you have reached too low a point and you might terminate them out, comes rug of love to sweep your feelings under. It’s such a relief to finally see it all, I’m not insane or crazy. I’m just damaged again. Some more scars that need to be treated and old ones that have burst open again.

          15. Juliette,,,,,answers,,,,,,,his phone does not have an alarm and if it does he doesn’t use it. He always used my phone/ alarm when he stayed over, he just had a track phone (wonder why anyone????).
            He actually tried to back out of me going along for the meet up at the last minute because he said he didn’t want me to feel left out and that has been a problem in the past…..( never did understand that one)……but I said,,,,no big deal Spathtard….I understand that the three of you know each other and I’ll be the odd one out….I don’t need to be the center of this!! DUH! Just don’t ignore me entirely!! I mean, you could just touch me from time to time, hold my hand,,,, you know? Pretend that you love me??
            Well he did reach over and touch me a couple times which was nice but it was the weirdest dinner I have ever been to! So wouldn’t you think that SOMEone would offer to pay for someone’s meal? Like Spathtard might offer to buy these former inlaws dinner? Or they might pick up the tab for us?? Nope! Dutch treat, they paid for theirs and he paid for ours,,,,,,which was a meal we split, LOL! It actually was my suggestion because we could get two different things, wings and a burger,,,,,,
            anyhow, his ex brother in law didn’t ask him hardly a single question about how he was, etc,,,,,he mostly sat there and talked about all the good deals he gets and how to save money…..it was just so bizarre!

          16. Juliette,,,,you hit the nail on the head. Very well said and just so very sad,,,,,,
            It’s still something I can’t really wrap my head around………that I felt what I felt, enjoied what I enjoyed, loved what I loved………for nothing more than a one diminutional comic book character,,,,,,,,,,,a total fake and fraud and the emotional HELL I’ve been through through over a total fake?? what a waste. what a pathetic person it takes to do that to someone you KNOW loves you. He knew it, he told me so so many times I couldn’t count them. so he knew I was very emotionally invested and he knew that he was NOT EVER going to return that and that he could walk away from me like a turd in the toilet. What a great guy. I could have NEVER conceived someone could be so pathetically low….

            I will never EVER say that I didn’t know there were problems or that something was wrong and THAT is where the damage was done, the mind f. Because he dismissed my concerns over and over and over. AND no matter what my concerns were about…..They were nothing to do with what the actual truth turned out to be.

          17. It just reeks of manipulation. Does Mummy wake him up at home?? I don’t understand what a track phone is, can you explain what that is please? (Probably because I’m Aussie!) By getting your agreement to come along and be happy with a pat now and then, he excused himself from the usual social skills it takes to create the right impression. He probably told them you were shy before you got there. Get what I mean? Maybe I’m wrong but I just don’t trust anything that manipulators do anymore! The DV that BB did to his ex (the mother of his only child), who he claims he hadn’t seen for 10 years, was to lift her by the neck and jaw, slam her into the wall, feet dangling (she is tiny) because she was nagging and wouldn’t shut up and he broke her jaw. But of course that explains why he did it, she was a nutter and wouldn’t stop nagging. Then when she dragged him through family court he paid a hit man 5K to eliminate her but backed out on the day he had to hand the photo over and pay the second 5K installment and so lost his 5K deposit. Of course he was justified in this because she had cost him a very big amount of money in lawyers and had disappeared with his son. This was 22 years ago apparently. We won’t be taking Bambam’s money will we?

          18. no,,,,he has an alarm clock, LOL……
            A track phone is a cell phone….like pre paid minutes, no contract, very popular with criminals, don’t you know.
            Bam Bam bad….Bam Bam very very bad. couldn’t he just walk up to you on the computer?

          19. No Puddle, he is at work, he works half day Saturday, it’s morning here. I’m getting increasingly and extremely careful to not let him find this site and go to OCD lengths to erase the parts of the history. Yeah I’m very scared but at the same time there is this madwoman in me that refuses to cringe to that degree and in the end, if it happens, I can go to a refuge because at the moment I don’t fit the criteria!! It’s outrageous but I understand, you have to be beaten up to get a bed in one here. Misogynist backward country that doesn’t fund the cause. I’ve been talking to them and have a good plan together. I’m about to start full time study in July in the mid year intake, so I can get student allowance because he has been supporting me for the last 4 months since I stopped working because I cracked up! So got to a very low point that was a mountain to climb with two broken legs. Then I found this site and have gained so much sanity from it. Tomorrow he is home all day so I won’t be on in the day. He falls asleep snoring at night on the couch then I log on then. I have an emergency delete thing worked out where I delete all the history first then all I have to do is push the x on the tab open to this page and there is no trace that I was even here, then I’m in my open email account which is sitting there in the next tab open in case I delete this one. Then if he presses restore previous session, my email comes up. Outrageous I know but it makes me fell safe.

          20. Here in Oz you can’t even buy a pre-paid phone from a service station or a supermarket without showing 100 points of photo ID like a passport or drivers licence number and they are entered onto a database that even records how many you have bought! But it’s easier for the Crimtrac database to keep track of 22 million people perhaps than overseas.

          21. I don’t know Juliette, I always set the alarm on my phone for him when he stayed here and had to go to wk. that particular night, I was already in bed and the phone was in the kitchen. he asked if he could set the alarm and I said sure. and there was the number,
            At the beginning I had asked him what happened in his previous marriages, why they had ended and he had a laundry list of reasons, all of them the exwifes fault. I said, I wonder what THEY would say if i talked to them? He said, and I quote,,,,,,You can talk to who ever you want. Well, the odds of my EVER having contact with any of them in his game was pretty low since they all lived 1000 miles away.

  12. There’s been a bit time and I’m catching up with Character Matters.

    Dr Simon, in the podcast 8.6.2014, at mark 15:45, you say: “Once again it goes to character, because there are people putting this trash out there. And they might wanna call it art, when in fact it has the potential to do great harm and people putting it out there know that, so that’s a matter of character, too.”

    Perhaps I’m the only one here, who’s not sure what you mean. Would you clarify? Do you mean violent entertainment in general?

  13. my guess would be some of the trashy music that is out there, violent trash, anti woman/ anti human trash. “Hoe’s, B*tch*s, etc….”. Endless examples.

    1. That makes sense. Why I didn’t come to think of that, I think that may be because I generally skip that, although I have paid a thought to it why lyrics are like they are and whether songwriters are so out of ideas they no longer even care.

      1. I know J……it’s easy to forget hoe depraved this society is if you are not in the thick of it. I live in a fairly “clean” area and I am always some what shocked when I leave here and get re-exposed to the real world…………….and very happy to come back.

        1. And stylized, glorified, violent movies with violent heroes that win in the end…these are the heroic myths of our times!! and video games and don’t get me started on pornography and the sexualization of undeveloped children and teens! It’s not art at all Dr Simon I wholeheartedly agree, it’s pus seeping from the wounds of humanity.

      1. Crikey J!! Horrifying, though I’m glad you pointed it out. It seems this kind of thinking is prevalent everywhere, including Australia. These monsters are actually winning seats in governments which often hold a delicate balance of power too and so they get to have a considerable influence because they hold the keys to the balance of power sometimes. This highlights one of the reasons I often say that democracy is a terrible ideological experiment gone horribly wrong. The world is experiencing finally, the rise of it’s former slaves and running scared of the consequences. That’s a simplification, I know but there is some truth to it, I believe. The universal declaration of human rights has not proven to be the global constitution it was intended to be. I am disgusted to see so many women leading and supporting these idiots too!! Aargh!

  14. I’ve been thinking about J’s questions about the myths for character disturbance and I had a light bulb moment.. I was thinking about the wolf in Grandma’s clothing and Little Red Riding Hood. This is the myth that tells us how covert aggressors work and the RED flags that he uses against us. He watches her from a distance picking flowers or berries or whatever she is happily distracted by…He approaches her and acts all nice…she is probably thinking that he is a Wolf and shouldn’t be talking to one…but he is soo nice to her and he doesn’t eat her, so her defences come down a little but not fully. He figures out where she is going when her defences are down, then rushes to Grandma’s house ahead of her so that he can attack her where she feels safe and her defences are down completely. Inside the home, where no one will hear her screams….She goes inside and she knows something is not quite right but she can’t quite put her finger on it….then she starts picking out some inconsistencies…Grandma what big eyes you have….now the Wolf turns this into him flattering her…All the better to see you with my beauty….he distracts her with the facade of love…after all, this is grandma’s nightie and grandma’s night cap. She ignores her intuition and stays there beside the bed….but again her intuition says something is not quite right…but Grandma what big ears you have…All the better to hear you with my Dear…In other words I’m listening to you keep talking my dear……And on and on. So he eats her. AND that bit about the woodcutter who rescues her well I don’t believe that for one minute. That was just a happy ending tacked on so as not to traumatize children!!

    1. Juliette,

      Now I’ll always wonder if Little Red Riding Hood was just a child’s story, or if the author had run into a Narcissist.

      I must confess, the symbolism is quite convincing.

  15. Juliette, the book “But He Says He Loves Me” Is VERY good. thanks for mentioning it because it is a real eye opener. once again, this information comes to a person too late. It information that you can only really “get” after you have been with a manipulator. But it’s still very validating. He was much sneakier and wiser to the ways than a lot of what is described but it’s still there and hurts like Hell to read.

    1. Puddle, I found the book very hard to read too. Quite confronting, it was before I had found Dr Simon’s books and it hit like a brick wall! The 3 abused/manipulated women who I have sat down at my computer and said ‘please read this now, it won’t take you long’ (which has been 3) has cried. I did too.

      1. yeah Juliette…….it R E A L L Y hits home and it is hard to read because of that. The thing that is important about this particular book it that it really zeros in on the emotional manipulator…..the Spathtard type. it’s not 100% for Spathtard but he is old! He’s been doing his little act for a long long time and has perfected his technique of man of what the book talks about were done in a MUCH more subtle way.

        1. “He’s been doing his little act for a long long time and has perfected his techniques. Most of what the book talks about were done in a MUCH more subtle way.”

          1. The one thing Dina McMillan didn’t quite see, that Dr Simon has is that these tactics aren’t just a deep insecurity defense mechanism. She does see it to some extent because she has written the manipulator’s handbook so it is implied as an offensive tactic but there are parts in her explanations in the female’s part that I think stick with the old models that say they suffer from deep wounds and that these behaviours are a result of them. She basically has got it though. For me reading Dr Simon’s explanations were the missing link.

  16. Juliette, this whole story of my supposed “pre meditated milking him for X&X’x phone number” Reminds me of another time when we had been broken up and he kept bothering me at the bar one night to talk and i finally had someone distract him and was told to get in their truck. He took me to his and his wife’s house and within an hour or so my phone rang and it was him blathering on about getting back together……
    So I had the phone on speaker and the wife hears all of this and is feeding me notes with questions on them to ask him. Well, long story shorter,,,,,,we ended up back together and I actually have an email from him saying how glad he was that I had called and that he had wanted to but I sounded firm when I had ended it. I was like………what? You called ME! just another one of those stories that is so hard to really tell to someone who wasn’t there……..so many details, subtleties, etc….

    1. Exactly Puddle, that’s gaslighting and to some extent believing their own lies. Planting seeds of doubt in your mind, who knows but total BS all the same. BB does very similar things and is adamant when I say ‘that’s not how it went BB’, you said…..He is dead set 100% right and nothing I can say or remind him of will change his mind. Then when it’s convenient he uses his more common one of, ‘I can’t remember, I don’t know’ or vaguesness. I don’t even bother with it any more, I see it for what it is a tactic or incurable brain delay at best.

      1. HA! Spathtard made a point of telling me that he’s never had a good memory. THAT was BS i’m sure part of some twisted tactic.
        I really do think there is something very darkly wrong with him…..and it did, just like the book says, come out when he was drinking. I got very uncomfortable.

        1. They feel the need coming on I think, the need for the Wolf to have a run in the wilds and they have a drink to give themselves permission to let it out of the cage. Then when it’s over the alcohol can be conveniently blamed. Just about all serial killers do the same when they feel the predator coming on.

          1. yes, he took on a whole other persona of arrogance and entitled indignance. A “how dare you” attitude . And i told him so, that I wanted to back down on the drinks because I was uncomfortable around him and he agreed to but not without throwing SOMEthing about my drinking in my face first.

  17. one thing I disagree with is the statement that abusers can not take control over you, that you must give it to them. This is a direct contradiction to what the book is saying!

  18. Puddle, which page does it say that in please. I’ve heard Dr Simon say similar things too. I’m guessing that it goes back to the principle that the power is coaxed away but given away all the same. We give it away one grain at a time. However when you are female and someone is psychologically or physically violent to you they are controlling you full stop, I believe. Or you have children you are trying to keep the peace for, yes they are controlling you. Alot of people who haven’t actually walked in those shoes do seem to go to the theory that no one can disempower you without you handing that power over and that all works well in theory BUT and I make no apologies for this but, sometimes you have to let that happen to be safe! He forces you into having sex and you do it to keep the peace – you are being controlled. You’ve had a good day and he goes to bed and says goodnight, you say goodnight to him and he says ‘If we don’t all wake up dead in the morning’ – you feel scared and you are being controlled. Yeah…. you can run away to a women’s refuge but then what, you are still being controlled, locked up with a bunch of other victims, not living your real life. You can get a restraining order and still you are controlled because you can’t sleep at night. Now it’s evolution that’s controlling you via your nervous system because you ‘gave your power away’. Then he drags you to family court and you have to hand your child over to him and listen to all the lies he told them and damage he did over the weekend – come home every Sunday afternoon and watch your children have nightmares and wet their bed every time they’ve just spent a weekend with him, you’re sad, angry and you are still being controlled?! Your family get sick of all the drama in your life and it hurts, you’re disappointed in them for not sticking by you unconditionally and it hurts – you’re still being controlled. You go to court for a breach of intervention order and it gets thrown out of court because there were no witnesses, you are very scared and very angry at the system that’s supposed to help and support you – you’re still being controlled?! You aren’t allowed to leave the state because children are entitled to a meaningful relationship with both of their parents and abusers use the Family Court to further abuse and control you and they don’t seem to care, so are you still being controlled?! You keep on getting terrorized by breaches of intervention orders and no one seems to lock him up and you go to bed with weapons under your pillow and you have insomnia, you are still being controlled. You get a visit from child protective services because he has told them you are a bad mother, they come in your house and discover he was lying, you are humiliated because you had a visitor that didn’t know your situation because you were trying your best to not let it define you – you are still being controlled. You get offered a job at a school and you discover at the interview that he ran them when he somehow found out and told them how much of a low life you are and you are devastated and don’t even want the job anymore because they know you are living this nightmare at best. You are being controlled. So one day you decide that you are sick of living like this any more and you are not prepared to give your power away any more and yeah, no one can ultimately control me, only I can give it away. So I’m going to kill this thing that’s controlling me and damaging my children. So you’re going to take control back. But then you realize that if you let the powers of darkness take control of your should you will never get it back and so you don’t. You are still being controlled. You are 45 and your heart still palpitates when you think about it. Lucky you didn’t hey?! Can someone please tell me if I let him control me? Thanks Puddle, I love the way you always dare to question the commonly accepted theories because you are alot smarter than you give yourself credit for. I’m with you mate!

    1. Juliette, I don’t know what page because my Kindle thingie doesn’t have pages. It’s weird!
      BUT, it’s in Book two, chapter 3, “Spinning his web”.

    2. I honestly believe that all of that, your examples, is the possible outcome of even just a brief encounter with someone who it highly controlling and skillfully manipulative. it becomes such a domino effect once they “have you”. Once your feet are stuck in the initial web and beyond.

      1. Yes Puddle indeed, it’s different too when your safety is at major risk or you have children. This time with BB is different because of not having children and getting the insight I didn’t have back then too. I am changing my responses and it is making a difference to how I feel, which is much better than things were when I was caught in that web I just described above. That was a brief tip of the iceberg of examples I went through. He abducted our son in the end and it took me 3 years to get him back and he was wrecked from those 3 years with the PPD and is still recovering from it.

        1. I will never be able to imagine what it would be like to have a child involved in this mess, like his 1’st, 2n’d, 3rd wives did………the saving grace for me is that I don’t ever have to see him again. Let alone deal with all the mess they can make of a custody battle with their absolute NEED to win and make you miserable.

  19. Juliette, the very word “manipulate” discredits the notion that you allowed it to happen. To manipulate something,,,,,lets say clay for instance…..is to pick it up in your hand and make it into something YOU want it to be, a bowl, a cup, a vase…….the clay has no choice in what you turn it into. Control, manipulate…..

    ma·nip·u·late
    məˈnipyəˌlāt/
    verb
    verb: manipulate; 3rd person present: manipulates; past tense: manipulated; past participle: manipulated; gerund or present participle: manipulating
    1.
    handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner.
    “he manipulated the dials of the set”
    synonyms: operate, work; More
    alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
    examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand.
    “a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine”
    synonyms: massage, rub, knead, feel, palpate More
    2.
    control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously.
    “the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group”
    synonyms: control, influence, use/turn to one’s advantage, exploit, maneuver, engineer, steer, direct, gerrymander; More
    alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.
    synonyms: falsify, rig, distort, alter, change, doctor, massage, juggle, tamper with, tinker with, interfere with, misrepresent; informal cook, fiddle with
    “they accused him of manipulating the data”

    1. Good work Puddle, I just re read the section in the book you were referring to also…so if we are the clay that has a consciousness, then what we are doing is one tiny millimetre at a time, allowing ourselves to be fashioned by the potter. Dina says in the book that it’s our blinkers we have on in the beginning ie we are trying to make him feel good by allowing all these subtle ways he ‘takes charge’ and don’t we love it when men do that. When a normal man who is not a manipulator takes charge we like it, so this guy is only doing what normal guys do anyway but he keeps this tactic going in the end far beyond what a normal healthy man would. He is using our normal female instinct, to submit to a male, against us. She also says ‘you have been socialized to think you owe him an answer’ for your refusal to submit to certain things. This is the point where the control is either rejected or further submitted. We can either assert our right to make our own mind up or submit to being questioned and possibly giving up our refusal to submit by getting caught up in more tactics designed to take our mind off the fact we didn’t agree with what is going on. Like your woodcutter creep. You didn’t have to explain in the end why this why that, you called the cops and let him deal with it instead of going out and getting caught up in another struggle like the one on the phone. So you didn’t get manipulated again at this crucial point. Some of those words from the dictionary really made my skin crawl…like doctor, massage, juggle, tamper, tinker interfere, cook, fiddle all the subtle ways they be the potter.

      1. right Juliette…..The woodsman however, was not motivated in the same way Spathtard was, there were no I love you’s, no physical contact what so ever. He didn’t hold me or make a point of holding me, didn’t lead me to believe I was THE ONE for him and that we were good together. No! We are not allowing anything! They have a power over us, something happens and it gives them the ability to fashion us. I’ve said this repeatedly……you can not look back on your involvement with one of these creeps with the same eyes you had then. You have Spath glasses now and you didn’t then. They know what they are doing from the beginning and you do not. You think “you let them” now but then, you were not in the loop.

  20. Hi J, thanks for prompting me, I kept procrastinating about doing the release because it scared me and my conscience kept reminding me that I gave you my word so I was telling myself that I would stick to it, then there wasn’t a private time over the weekend with BB home, so I’m just fresh from doing it now on Monday. My first thought was I would have liked more time to get into the relaxed state, I felt like I needed longer to go deeper. I did manage to get relaxed though as I know how to do it, it just took longer. I became scared pretty quickly, a kind of fear of the unknown. I didn’t listen to it first I just did it. Part of me was thinking ‘what the hell are you doing something like this without checking if it’s safe first?’ and the other part was saying ‘just trust it’s ok’. I decided to pick the escape from the rapist because it was an isolated incident and has been surfacing alot lately for some reason. I was thinking that some of the other trauma was so long term that it would be more difficult to do perhaps. I was scared the whole way, my heart was palpitating strongly sometimes (it still is now). There was an awareness in me when he asked me to just let it go and forget it, my own inner voice said ‘I don’t want to forget it’. That was fascinating to notice. It felt like if I let this hypnotist wipe the memory (bear in mind I had no idea of what was coming),then I wouldn’t feel safe. That sounds bizarre. It was like the experience would have been a waste of time and I wouldn’t have learned something from it for future safety. Lots of the snapshots of the experience came to my consciousness and also some moving ones. The memories I have of when it happened are both types. Some I am in my body and some I am observing it happening. None of the moving time memories last longer than around ten seconds, most are even shorter than that. The others are like black and white photos. As I became afraid of what I would see or feel I tried to let go and become curious as to what I would remember that I have blocked out. The observer in me was calming me and using the tool that I often use, of scientific curiosity to distance myself from what I was afraid of feeling. This is interesting, I had a few recollections of colours and as soon as they happened I realized they were new recollections that I hadn’t recalled since it happened. Like the vivid colours of a scarf that was wrapped around my tarot cards in my bag, the purple bag, the gold thread in my jacket. It was like I had more sensory memories than I have allowed myself since then (6 May 2001). I remembered what I was wearing for the first time in a long time. I remembered since then, what pants I had on, white linen kind of jeans but hadn’t thought about what I was wearing on top for ages. I also remembered being really cold and trying to stifle my shivering in case he thought I was scared, towards the end. It was freezing just before the sun came up and I wasn’t rugged up at all. The whole incident went for about 4-5 hours but my combined memories of it wouldn’t even total 1hr I rekon. When the hypnotist mentioned forgiveness I was wondering if maybe I needed to forgive myself for that or not and whether I had done that. I will talk to my therapist about that. I have never done a felling walk through this experience with a counsellor other than a brief description of what happened and the outcome, so thismorning was the closest I have come to more vivid recollections with feelings in a relaxed state since it happened. My heart palpitations became really strong after a while, I’ve been having them in general lately so my whole system is a bit generally trigger sensitive anyway atm. Near the end I felt like I do when I’m overwhelmed with fear, the feeling is that I want to curl up on my side under a blanket. The first feeling I had was of wanting to be held like that but alas there generally is no one there when that happens so I just curl up on my own. I call this decompressing. I just lay there breathe allow my thought to pass and just notice them. I feel warm because usually my temp regulation goes awry when I’m like that and I feel cold or warmth seeking depending on which way you look at it. When this came on just before the end I tried not to panic or be disappointed, I just decided that when the voice was finished, that’s what I would do. This is why I was afraid of doing it and knew that I needed a good quiet day to do this experiment in case I needed to decompress. It took more courage than you can maybe imagine but also faith in myself that no matter what happens I’m in control. I’m glad it wasn’t brutal though. It was gentle and felt safe once I realized what was going on. Whilst I was laying curled up on my left side I was aware of my heart palpitations because they are easier felt on the left. When I feel like curling up it always feels better to face the couch back or wall than the open air. I believe this is really instinctive of ‘facing the carer’s body’ like an infant. I’ve never read that I just notice it from my own experience. So this is why I was on my left thismorning because that was the direction of the couch back. When I have heart palpitations I usually try to lay on my right because they don’t bang against the ribs but thismorning I just stayed on my left instead of moving. I had a brainwave while I was there just letting the fears go. I’ve been reading about self object relations alot lately and I imagined that a newborn infant who is afraid and screaming (therefore their heart is beating fast and hard) in terror, when the ‘object or carer’ isn’t there must feel their heart beating in this way and experience their heart as an object and have no idea what this pulsing hard sensation is inside them. Which would frighten them even more I imagine. I’ve never considered that before. I’m happy to tell you anything else you are curious about the hypnosis, if you want to ask. Thankyou for suggesting it, I’m glad I did it. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few days because I’m wondering how all the subliminal and auto suggestion stuff will affect me from here on. :-))

      1. J, I would say overall it was easy. if I didn’t already have good internal awareness and coping mechanisms, it may have left me wide open though. I wouldn’t recommend it for someone who hasn’t done any therapy and gained tools to deal with their reactions. Good for someone who wants to explore something further who knows what to do if it triggers them.

    1. Hi Puddle, what a great article. Adding the apath brings a whole new awareness to paths in organizations, workplaces etc and how they can use people’s families as apaths or their therapists sometimes. I’m not a fan of hypnosis either. I’ve never had it done and feel like it’s similar to a general anaesthetic in that you had better have total faith in the person because they have so much power over you. The trauma thing wasn’t exactly hypnosis, the guys voice was doing that kind of tone that speaks to your subconscious like a hypnotist and the positive statements that he was making I was ok with. I thought at one point that if I don’t like what’s going on I’m going to rip out the earphones immediately but it felt ok. I disagreed too with the suggestion of ‘completely forgetting’ about it. I don’t want to forget it, I made some mistakes that got me into that incident and I learned something valuable from them that won’t ever happen again. I never want to be that stupid, vulnerable or naive again. I do believe in and have used positive affirmations on myself though, positive ideation and refusal to focus too much and long beyond what is necessary to learn on the negative destructive thoughts and images. I think there is a prolonged grieving process that people go through after trauma whether it’s emotional or physical abuse doesn’t matter. ie destruction of you physically or emotionally so that you don’t want to live yourself. I think people grieve the loss of faith and innocence like a death of part of the self. I certainly did, I had to get used to the new person that I had become. The person wasn’t as fun to be with as who I had previously been. I also questioned the ‘reason’ it had happened. In grief we say ‘why me?, what did I do to deserve this’…Human beings need to find meaning in things to justify the energy they expend on them, ie not waste time and oxygen. So people turn their trauma into things that help others not to make the same mistakes, or use their new found wisdom to leave the world a better place than they found it. I think that without this we have an existential crisis, life just isn’t making sense. We channel the new person we have become into something positive instead of the negative aspects of what we have lost. Then we can love ourselves and feel life is making sense again. Something good came of something bad. Like what you are doing here on Dr Simon’s site.

      1. Puddle, This article you have posted, highlights the fact that sometimes it’s an all out ambush that distorts your sense of reality and everyone else’s too, with a manipulator. Did these people in the examples give their power away? No. I don’t believe they did. They were ambushed by a path and had nobody on their side to validate what they were knowing and feeling was true. Someone TOOK their power away,

        1. I have dealt with that my whole life. With my brother, Spathtard and others. I make a good scapegoat and because of some of my issues in processing information and emotions and communicating my thoughts and feelings I am often misunderstood. That is a source of huge frustration and hurt for me but its something I have to accept. I’m not good at explaining things clearly because there is so much jumbled up in my head at any given minute like hundreds of unfinished poems all spun together and each day more get added to the pile. So much to figure out and im always behind. I thought I had someone who cared in Spathtard. Someone who saw past my broken parts and loved me anyhow but I was SO wrong. At this point I doubt that I will ever find someone who can deal with my issues and be someone I want to be with as well. Not a good sign that the one man that really made me happy only did so by being a total fake and manipulative smoke blower. That is so hard to live with and very emotionally confusing.

          I’m glad you liked the article, it was mentioned in a Lovefraud post.

          1. Thanks Juliette, Big hugs back to you in OZ. I don’t really feel sorry for myself….just sad and loneliness has always been a inroad for all kinds of things in my life. Back in my drinking days, i would bring someone home with me and I’m sure that 9 out of 10 times it was interpreted as me wanting sex with them. All I really was looking for was someone to hang out with, drink beer, kiss and listen to music into the night. Guess what? Most men are in the exact opposite camp. MAYBE 1 out of 10 would be content with that plan so consequently I basically went along with what was expected of me, not able to put it all together and sort it out enough to say no…..
            With drinking out of the picture, guess how many men have been to my house since the Spathtard is out of the picture?? Zero. I haven’t even been in any condition to go on a date or whatever and it’s not exactly like I even have the occasion to meet that many people. People are weird and I’m weird and the weird people are a different kind of weird than my weird……scary weird, unaware weird,,,,,the weird that I just don’t tolerate well or care to be around.

          2. Puddle, whilst I do understand what you are saying, I don’t think you are weird at all, you’re just living in a small community as a big fish in a little pond. I’ve done that too, I loved living in nature but I just became choked by the narrow mindedness of isolated people. Thank goodness we have the internet nowaday which I didn’t then. Not that the city is any kind of consolation prize either. Women need a ‘Wingwoman’ or two to go out and enjoy socializing I think. Then inviting people home is safer and more enjoyable. Then there’s the alcohol thing too. I’m not into it either, such a waste of life and energy to feel ‘confident’ at best. How do you feel around children Puddle, have you ever considered a career working with them or do you cringe at the thought of too much stimulation?

          3. Juliette,,,,,trust me…..I’m weird….! LOL! But maybe the better word would be “different” and it’s not just the people where I live now, it’s people in general….life in general….I just find it ALL very weird. I feel like an alien to a certain degree. I’m always the “oh! Come here!! Look at this! Look what i found or saw or heard…..Isn’t is cool!!” and most people, most of the time are like……oooooh kaaaaay Puddle! If yoooou saaaaay sooooo……. Not all the time of course but it would seem that the pickings are slim.
            And then there is just the WEIRD weird people that I can’t even beGIN to relate to, just wtf???? WHY did you have to cross MY path today? LOL! I am fascinated by them at the same time that I just find most people surreal and bizarre.
            Children……….some of them……….are ok. take it or leave it type of feeling but no, I have no drive to work with any! I’m an animal person……LOVE them but working with abused animals is way too triggering for me and again,,,,,the people aspect is involved. I’ve worked for a couple vets, volunteered for an animal rescue rehab center, worked with horses, trained dogs……..right now my body is in severe pain as of three or four months ago. I have no clue what is going on but my feet especially are in severe pain. I have a 7m 3 wk old puppy and it’s all I can do to keep him exercised and take to training. I can’t even walk him anymore! I have to ride my bike and he jogs along on the back of my property. Thank God he goes for this routine because I don’t know how I would exercise him if he didn’t. It’s somewhat of a miracle…..but I’m on my feet most of the day and it’s really taking it’s toll. SO, I need to get back to the Dr. and I think get cortisone shots in my feet. ugh!

          4. Puddle Lol!, having said that, I’m so sorry to hear that about your feet. Not exactly a part one can do without and very difficult part to rest. Sounds to me like you have retained your curiosity and wonder at the world, which is a great thing. Most people have had this squashed by years of conditioning to strive in the rat race. Yes, we’re all a bit weird really, just in different ways. It’s a weird world indeed. I don’t get it either! lol I don’t give money to people charities I sponsor mountain gorillas. They are amazing and so worth protecting. When people charities hawk me for money in supermarkets or door-knocking, I tell them ‘I don’t like people enough to help them much any more, I give my spare money to mountain gorillas’, their jaws drop and they don’t have a comeback except..’OK’…which speaking of weird I don’t understand! Like why is that such a shock to people..LOL

          5. that’s funny juliette……I can picture the look on their faces SO CLEARLY!! It’s similar to when I get off on an in-depth, yet casual as if EVERYONE knows this gun chat with some dude! LOL….because at first they don’t think I could possibly know, let alone KNOW anything about the subject and after about 5 minutes they are looking at little odd, 5’3″ me like I’m a human sized chipmunk or something as bizarrely unusual!! LOLOL!
            It’s fun though as opposed to saving the Mountain Gorillas. And yes,,,,they are absolutely fascinating. I look in their eyes and almost instantly my eyes tear up and just did typing that!! I used to have a Rottweiller and I always told her she had gorilla eyes…..just SO soulful, wise and knowing. She was a severely abused and neglected rescue so she actually has something in common with them.

          6. And yes…..I never really though about feet the way I do now! I’m almost thinking of taking up crawling again! It’s probably just like riding a bike, it would come right back to me!

          7. Oh Puddle, I’m so upset about my cats. I have three beautiful, amazing cats and this whole escape is revolving around not abandoning them. It’s the only thing that brings tears to my eyes at the moment, as if it’s a trigger for all sorts of losses and abandonment that I’ve experienced throughout the years. I just can’t bear separating them or living with the imagined horror of what their lives will be like from here on without the life they have now. I just have to take them with me and if that means it takes me longer to get out then so be it. Argh, it’s doing my head in though. Part of me thinks ‘get out’ you can’t afford to worry about these animals in a critical situation’ and the other part knows that if I do it and give them away, I will stew on it forever and it will fester inside me as hatred. I’m selling my piano to pay for them to go to a boarding place for as long as it takes until I get settled in my own home.

          8. Juliette,,,,,,they make more pianos but your cats and your heart and your piece of mind is part of YOU so do it. I have this monster puppy right now and he is keen on my cat who is older as is my 16 year old Yorkie Poo. So, the cat had to go for a while….down to my friend’s house with her cat. They are great buddies. Anyhow, it’s a long story but I just brought him back a couple weeks ago because the monster pup has now gotten to a manageable developmental stage. It’s still a little “iffy” with him and the cat, if he was off leash outside and the cat was outside, the chase would be on.
            My point is, I like your plan for the kitties,,,,,it’s temporary and it frees you up to get out of there safely and swiftly when you are ready. You can do it!! {{HUGS}}

          9. Thankyou for the virtual hug Puddle, I’ve had a minor set back to my plan, only minor though and then a massive Charm Offensive evening, it almost hurts more than the abuse. We need to buy a bigger house and a boat now oh.. and a bigger car to tow it. We love me very very much today, so so much. We really care about my kids today and we are working so hard at the moment. We need to buy me a new piano today, a better one, we are very very sorry today for destroying the precious. We are going to make it up to the precious…(For the five thousandth time)…. @%$@@&&^$#$%^*(*&^%$#@!!!!!~!

          10. I am SUCH an “I’m sorry”sucker!!!!!! I heard it and more in so many ways,,,,,,,,and then it all but stopped but more BS replaced it Juliette. You sound very resolute about where you want to go with this, as in out/ away. I was not………………………at ALL!!!!! The last thing I wanted was for it to be over. Maybe I just wasn’t in it long enough to really be there when it ended Precious.

          11. I thought this was interesting because of our discussion about male abusers vs female abusers. when Danny gave the statistics and the reasons why females are often give a “free pass” on things that men are held to task for, the question went through my mind…..” I wonder how many women who DO commit some form of domestic violence are victims of it themselves and reacting from an emotionally, mentally or physically beat down position. REactive vs intentional, calculated, overt or covert abuse.

            http://www.lovefraud.com/2014/07/03/pro-arrest-policies-for-domestic-violence-show-women-arrests-growing/

    2. Juliette, hypnosis sessions usually have inductions. The trauma release video doesn’t. It simply lets you lay down for a while and dial down internal chatter.

      Personally, the video’s helped me release many useless, nasty memories. I haven’t even gone through anything that could be called downright traumatic. No matter. If there ever is use for Hutton’s video, I will listen to it again, many times in a row.

      Identities seem to change in some ways all the time. Is it just that traumatic events cause changes much more sudden and drastic?

      1. Another technique that Donna Anderson from Love Fraud has had very good results with is TAPPING. It’s very easy to do and When I remember to do it I think I have seen positive results. There is a web site, it’s free….

        1. Thanks Puddle, I’ve heard a bit about that but not read anything about it. My GP showed me how to do it last year and I even tried it to control my heart palpitations, not sure if it worked or whether I was persisting might have been the point. I think I do it subconsciously using my fingernails. I rub the tips of my thumbs on the ends of my fingernails when I feel stressed and when I look back I have done this increasingly for years. It might be weird but hey I don’t take pills so a bit of weird looking self soothing, I’ll take! Dr Janov is all against it but then who can afford to do a year at his clinic either, maybe John Lennon and Yoko Ono, no worries, but not me or most average people. I wish I could but by the time I can afford something like that I’ll be needing a funeral plan more probably! lol

      2. Hi J, that’s interesting to hear that you found it helpful for just unwanted bad memories too. I imagine that would work really well and also for just resentments that we hold onto and things we are holding onto and not forgiving others for.

        With the benefit of hindsight I would say there are two types of traumas, the prolonged type, like surviving my PPD ex and the sudden type like getting away from the sex predator. They both affect people in different ways I believe. Then different people are more primed to suffer or more resilient to the effects of said trauma too. Surviving trauma that is prolonged doesn’t really allow you to notice the effects whilst the trauma is ongoing, you often can’t afford to. You know the saying that we don’t often drop our bundle until it’s safe to do so. That’s definitely how I experienced it. The adreneline and other chemical levels go up and you are in flight or fight mode, or both. Adaptive changes occur in order to cope. The body’s systems are registering all these changes and trying to maintain homeostasis. It’s after the trauma has subsided that the changes in the system/self become more apparent, I believe. I think I didn’t become fully aware of the changes to my nervous system, personality and trust until years later. At first it was like nothing stressed me anymore after going through that. Kind of like I just didn’t sweat the small stuff anymore and I just had none or very little response to normal everyday stress almost. It was like I had been so used to extreme stress 24hrs a day, for so long that normal stress felt like nothing. This changed too. After 8 yrs prolonged trauma with the PPD ex, I started to became aware that my nervous system was fragile even though I left him for the last time just before the 2yr mark, the trauma got worse after that anyway. It is like my stress adaptation response has a lower threshold for breaking down under significant life stress. I started to notice I was ‘triggered’ after about the 10 yr mark, although I didn’t quite understand it or give it that name. I had little awareness of Ptsd and had never considered that I might have developed it. (Up to then, the only therapy I had done in relation to this was at the 2yr mark when I wanted to kill him, which helped me not do that, but that’s about it). It was ok, but not very good therapy now that I look back. Low socioeconomic circumstances were going against me too in terms of what I could afford. I stayed single for 12 yrs too, so had little to trigger me. Then this relationship with Bambam has opened my eyes to just how much damage was done to me previously and I have experienced huge debilitating traumatic responses to his aggression as if he had tortured me instead of manipulated and treated me as an object. Straight after escaping the rapist I had derealization, I started thinking I may have dreamed it. I had to look in my organizer for the date I had circled and written his ‘name’ he told me, to verify I had not dreamed it. The full reality of what had happened set in about one week later and I started having all sorts of physical symptoms like heart palpitations (first time ever) anxiety, thermoregulation problems, inability to eat, weight loss and more feelings of unreality. It’s so hard to put into words. I didn’t get the help I needed either, so it’s now at the 18 yr mark that I’m now safe to let it surface I think. Again, you drop your bundle when you can. My youngest has just left home at 18 and the pressure to be ‘on the ball’ all the time for my children has finally lifted and I can begin to focus on who I am, what I have developed in terms of ptsd, in relation to everything that has happened to me and how I am going to negotiate life with this kind of disability. I’m not medicated either, I believe if I ever have a chance of learning about this and how to cure or handle it, I need to know what I’m feeling is from within and not a side effect. So many of these types of medications prescribed for mental illness have side effects that are not much different to the original complaint. I’ve even tried a few for a few weeks at a time and I didn’t like it. It’s like being trapped inside a body that has any other incurable disease… MS or motor nuerone, your mind is fine and okay but your body’s (nervous system’s) workings have a life of their own. So yes, the changes can be either sudden or drastic or both and every individual is so different the effects can be short or long lasting. With hindsight I was already primed for the worst effects from a childhood spent very anxious and the first ex that played piano. I was very strong and resilient with the first ex all the way and had no symptoms after we separated then along came the next one and even then I just used to shake and get insomnia and anxiety. The real ptsd disorder came out years later much to my surprise.

  21. When I said 18 yr mark, I mean 18 yrs from the PPD ex, the escape was at the 5yr mark from the start of the PPD ex’s trauma. Two traumas for the price of one!

  22. Woah thanks Puddle, I just happened to login in and read that link re domestic violence. Such a complex issue re females hiding the abuse, protecting themselves and appearing to be violent. I know a woman whose partner stabbed himself in the abdomen twice in front of her with the knife he took from her when she was defending herself and then had her charged with the assault. No one believed her at the hospital, especially the police. A few months after that, he pushed her onto an electric hotplate (the ones with concentric rings) backwards when she was wearing a bikini top and left a huge burn. No one thought to question her when she claimed that she fell backwards while cooking sausages, despite seeing her twice a week for six weeks to get her special dressings changed. That’s Australia for you though. How fantastic that the police officer posted her comment. It’s really encouraging to know that law enforcement understands the issues to that degree. Best practice usually takes 5-10 to get on a boat to Australia, I think it is slowly changing from the days I experienced in the 90’s but not fast enough. I heard something on tv recently that said around 70% of all police call outs are for DV, which when layered on top of the statistics in the article about Males overwhelmingly being the batterer, really makes the role of police in society, on the whole, a mostly Knight in Shining Armour for women and children. In Australia we only introduced mandatory police reporting (to child protection) of DV, a few years ago. They don’t visit until they get three reports. It’s still not mandatory for professionals to report child abuse unless it’s sexual!

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