Character Disorders and Malice

All of us have done harm to others, and most of the time such harm is done inadvertently or unintentionally. But there are some among us who do harm maliciously. Just what is malice anyway? The word has its roots in the Latin, Old French and Spanish word for “evil” or “bad.” And from a legal perspective, malice is defined by the conscious intent to do harm. For some, such malevolent intention is the very definition of evil.  But what, you might wonder, would make a person deliberately want to hurt someone else?

Traditional psychology paradigms suggest that people behave maliciously as a defense against perceived hostility or anticipated injury.  In other words, as anxious, insecure people, to some of us the best defense appears a strong offense.  Traditional paradigms also suggest that people lash out only when they’re angry and that anger is always a response to feeling wronged. But time and ample research has not been kind to these antiquated notions. We now know that people hurt others for reasons other than merely defending themselves against perceived threats or the anxiety associated with anticipated injury. And the abundant research on predatory or instrumental aggression indicates that people who intentionally harm others can be motivated by many factors other than anger.   

Now none of us is immune to causing harm. Sometimes we can inflict pain on others out of sheer ignorance or even carelessness. But this is not the same as intentionally doing something to injure someone. And disturbed and disordered characters are unfortunately among those who hurt people intentionally and for a variety of nefarious reasons. While it’s almost unfathomable to most folks (especially the  “neurotics” among us), some of major reasons disturbed and disordered characters engage in malicious behavior include:

  • To punish.  Disturbed and disordered characters don’t like it when you don’t see things their way, do the things they want you to do, or give them what they want from you. And they’re more than willing to make your life miserable as a way of coercing you to comply. They’re particularly vindictive fighters whose cardinal rule of engagement is simple:  Give me what I want and you won’t get hurt.  Defy me, and there’ll be some sort of hell to pay.
  • To feel powerful.  Some characters just want to feel one-up and on top of you. And they’ll do whatever it takes to make you knuckle-under or remain in a one-down position.  They hurt you because they can, and knowing they can makes them feel big and strong.  Disturbed characters often build themselves up at the expense of  others.
  • To take advantage.  As I point out in In Sheep’s Clothing, Character Disturbance, and The Judas Syndrome (as well as in many of the blog articles), for disturbed and disordered characters, it’s always about position.  And when they seek personal gain, it’s generally at someone else’s expense.  Succeeding at the task of interpersonal exploitation also helps confirm for them their already problematic (inflated) sense of self-worth and perpetuates their attitudes of superiority and entitlement.
  • For the thrill of it.  For the some of the most seriously disturbed characters, doing harm to others is a source of great amusement.  It’s a most sordid type of fun.  It actually gives them joy to relish in the suffering and misfortune of other.  And there are some disordered characters (see also the three articles on the Sadistic Personality) who are particularly prone to this.
  • They lack the attributes of character that might motivate them to do otherwise.  Some folks don’t have the kind of conscience or inner controls that might keep them from doing things that might hurt others.  So when something happens that they don’t like and they feel like lashing out, they simply do so because there’s nothing in their makeup that makes them give pause or hold back.  Some even have such deficits in empathy that simply doesn’t bother them enough to think twice when it comes to harming someone else.  They’ll do what others generally wouldn’t dare simply because they don’t care.

Unfortunately, many folks have remained in highly toxic, abusive relationships because they misjudged the motivations their relationship partner had for doing the harm they did (and, therefore, also misjudged the character of the person inflicting the abuse).  In the next few articles, I’ll present some examples of this.  And hopefully, in the discussion, others will share experiences that together with the articles will help those in troubled relationships better understand both the character and the motivations of the person acting with malice.

This Sunday will feature a special Easter edition of the Character Matters program on UCY.TV.

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162 thoughts on “Character Disorders and Malice

  1. I was bullied in junior high by a boy, who must’ve been a covert-aggressive in training. Subtly turning everything to blame me and make me look like an unpleasant, horrible person while leading others to minimize his poor behaviors(when he did act up with them seeing) and see him as great company. There were some others, who liked to mock my subtly. Good that those times are behind.

    I got some pre-taste of covert-aggression that way.

    1. I experience the same with African-American peoples. They have a grand scheme to take whats mine and if i don’t comply, i die.

      1. Why r you stereotyping all African Americans? One or even two is not reason to condemn all. Same holds true to African Americans who was enslaved by white southerners but again not all white can be held responsible .

      2. Africans were literally stolen and treated as things in multiple nations; a coordinated plot by Europeans.

        Perhaps the dynamic you have yet to name is “projection.”

        1. Agreed. Zionism. Very bad people. Ashkenazi’s / Europeans. They are enslaving the world. They are all sociopaths. Sick evil

          1. If all Europeans were sociopaths I would not be in love with Victor Franklin, Eric Ericson, Abraham Maslow,George Kelly, etc. And not because I’m a ‘coconut’ but because it has everything to do with aesthetics, I love beautiful minds. They make the world a better place. If they were all sociopaths we would be all sociopaths. I salute those healthy minds, dead or alive I create a place in my heart for them.

        2. Wrong Africans were sold by their own tribal leaders or traded. Im not saying it was right but the problem with people today is that they never try to see the whole picture. Society tells you part of the history growing up and that’s all you want to believe. Slavery was wrong but No one says anything about it when it happened to the Asians or any other race throughout history. Slavery has happened to all races not just one open your eyes and see the whole picture not just one part

          1. You need to study better…Africans never “sold” their own. Then there was no such thing as “race” that was created by Caucasians after taking them and beginning “chattel” slavery where humans were treated less than animals. Africans were parts of a variety of tribes and each usually had their own language. How would they have agreed to sell their own if they did not understand the language of the Europeans when they got there??? lol HOW?

      3. Yall have a grand plan to put us down because yall scared yall feel as if were stronger and bigger and faster and yall are like women to women (getting intimidated by looking at that person and not liking them for no reason) if somebody wanted to kill you with that attitude im pretty sure i see what yall act like we animals we dont want you or you but if i said all white people are ignorant scary and grimy yall would be looking like im crazy find something to do

        1. So let’s make sure that you’re talking with facts and let’s make sure that you’re not just being a racist full of malice. And if you can’t even do one decent thing like forgive like black people have forgiven you like love like black people have love you like understand like black people have understood you don’t go there about black people cuz I could pull up some shit that I make your head spin, that’s y’alls nature to hurt people and to find joy and doing it and to attack people that’s y’alls nature and that poison that you have in your veins has hurt the generations to come because y’all don’t want to get in the word of God you don’t not want to do what God say you want to say the Bible is fake you want to be atheist you want to do all this stuff outside of the will of God well when you’re outside of the will of God you’re dealing with malice hate Envy Strife everything evil cuz if you’re not going to serve God you go serve the other and that is Satan and what does Satan bring hatred unforgiveness Strife wickedness evilness don’t get me started up in here boy! Want to talk about black people.

          1. I wonder why are you getting all worked up, I’m black, but South African, and believe me it has nothing to do with me when someone say something bad about black’s in any part of the world because I can’t allow it to reduce my worth. I’m not black. I’m human. Oppression and injustice will always be around but I focus more on how I can keep transcending, focus inside myself helps me to grow more and function on meta needs instead of deficiency needs.

      4. You’re sicker than you really understand you want to base this on race really, because, the first thing that I thought was this is how white people has treated Black Americans and others who came to live in America because of the History of us in America. In the name if liberty which by the way the original Statue of Liberty was and still is a black woman , with that being said , they have come from all over to look and still look down on black because many don’t have these Character defects and that’s why they still are on the same levels they are. Black people don’t move in these realms , that’s why they succeed the races in prisons. Don’t ever forget that it was your great-great-grandfather’s ,mothers that enslaved a nation of people stolen from their land from God-knows-where. To wake up everyday and be faced with this malicious behavior and hell down hell back from their dreams. All my people wanted was acceptance love forgiveness respect by y’all, they don’t want what you have they want whats theirs , http://www.nysun.com/business/from-jp-morgan-chase-an-apology-and-5-million/8580/ of course if you want to go there, your great-great-grandfather’s took everything of my people’s Lifestyles , their tongues their names, they took everything from them, and that’s your fear today, they want what you have, your a joke, the little you have you couldn’t possibly pay back what you have done to my people yeah you, your great-great-grandfather’s and mothers that’s you. Yawl have been scared after all this time because of your evil . Instead of being fair and hiring blacks on jobs when you do you send them through so much hell all because of everything you just read in this article is of you this is how you operate, so you’re afraid full of fear saying black people want yours or you’ll die that’s a damn lie, otherwise you wouldn’t be here.So when you read the psychological disorders of yourself make sure you understand your reading of yourself what your people have done and how they kept feeding this machine, this is why you’re afraid and this is why you say the things that you say
        http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/Willie_Lynch_letter_The_Making_of_a_Slave.shtml.
        Black people don’t want what you have they want what’s rightfully theirs, America owes black people payment for their pain and suffering still to this day behind malice and other Character defects that you guys displayed towards us through those damn Spaniards, I’m going to tell you something they’re saying that the Indians here the original ones were black, not the Mexicans mixed kind Spaniard and Portuguese not those the ones you see running around here. Im talking about Afrucan black, not the little Mexicans you see around here with the straight hair that descended out of Asia, I’m talking about Nappy Headed black people out of Africa where the true Indians here , and they’re finding pyramids not just the pyramids from the Aztecs , I’m talking about pyramids from Egypt pyramids, and they’re finding bones of Giants all through America, my black people do not want what’s yours , they want the truth and they want what’s theirs . All this was done behind malice envy hatred and strife. So if you want to talk about what the black people want from you, it ” ain’t” what you have, You couldn’t possibly pay that debt, what anyone wants is love respect acceptance forgiveness , people do mot seem to have in their bones, that shame on you, not them.
        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jan/22/usa.davidteather

        1. Y’all have punished the innocent to feel powerful and you did it with joy in your heart you don’t feel sad when you see someone getting locked up you don’t have any see you don’t feel sad when you see a black person getting killed by the police you don’t have empathy this is what makes you feel powerful there’s something wrong with all of you and you just read it and you still want to put this back on black people I don’t have time for your shenanigans I am a black person and you will not sit up and say all manner of evil against me when I haven’t done anything to you. As much wrong as y’all have done to me

          1. And I do have a right as a black person to protect myself against this Judas Behavior and if you want to find the real description of Jesus look in the Book of Revelation first chapter 13 through 14 vers Jesus didn’t have blue eyes and blonde hair baby Jesus was a man of dark skin so don’t don’t go there about black people until you open up the whole story and it wasn’t a curse that Noah said unto Cain but it was a warning what was going to happen to his children behind malice, not a curse.

          2. I am the black people you’re talking about and I am being attacked from all four corners and I could not understand what it was and why it was until now and it is so clear to me now but I also have a choice I don’t have to remain in these abusive relationships among abusive people in an abusive jobs where this nonsense is allowed to continue and they’re protected because the ringleader is the sickest one.

          3. I have said what I needed to say I’m good I know the truth I know now what it is I’m dealing with I’m good and I know now what I don’t have to put up with

          4. I need to say it wasn’t just Europeans in the slave trade might a fact there are a lot of European men that love black women I might be too light skinned for them really, with that being said it wasn’t just Europeans off into the slave trade it was anybody with this type of behavior attacking a people who were humbled who were meek who had the character of God who didn’t live evil.

          5. All I know is this has ruined our country this has ruined other countries it has ruined myblife and the lives if others, I’m glad that I have found out, finally after all this time what I have been up against finally, and it feels good,it feels goid to know finally know why, and how come. the most important thing is can it be fixed it ,might be too late the devil has ruined and run amok which has taken a lot of people down with it, it has killed a lot of innocent people behind this Judas Behavior behind this malice and deceit and envy and hatred, that is toward all of man kind, not just a chosen few, it is really empowering to know what I’m up against what my people have been up against, what people still is up against, it’s just really empowering. now, you know how to defend yourself . like the article says we have all been hurt all of us behind this Behavior every last one of us in this room, that’s why we’re in here because we were seeking the truth we were seeking healing we were seeking honesty wisdom knowledge understanding and we have found it, now let us not attack one another because we have proven that , but , let us learn how to work with each other and destroy this evil stomp it out , save our famlies those who we love our communities through this knowledge. now the only thing you can do is grow from here and learn how to protect ourselves and others from this wickedness not hurt each other not attack each other because we all have neen hurt you can see we good at attacking each other this is a nasty spirit malice. Now let’s be good at being better than this.

          6. None of what you wrote, is based on facts…there are pyramids in the US and meso America, thisnis true but the people who built them were not of African decent and they were in fact, exactly the Natives you see in The States and in Central America and Mexico today. Get it together.

            Also, Jesus was a Jew. You have seen blond blue eyed Jews? Kind of like Syrians…who are also blond and blue eyed as well as dark. Or agreeks, who are both blond, blue eyed or dark hair and eyes.

            Wowzers.

      5. That’s like saying “all white people treat black folks badly.” It’s untrue and overtly prejudice. No attitude/characteristic is attributed to a race. Ignorance is bliss…I guess!

        1. I read these comments before. Ignorance breads ignorance, hate and every other human malady of envy and jealousy upon their fellow brother/neighbor. We truly are all one in this world, the sick politicians and money makers, exploiters of human tragedy use race to keep us unified and ultimately loving one another.

          I am not speaking religion, I am speaking humanity, love for one another, forgiveness and making this world the best we can for our offspring.

          Peace and joy to all.

        2. Reallity is about 97% would never change, their skin for a black. Not going around this it is a fact. Almost the whole discriminates black. Just think about it. And white bathrooms for white and bathroom for black wose not long ago lets not forget. I would have to have therapy to deal even todays hate that has become more open, is disgusting whats going on today. We have full control distinguish good from bad. Some change their toxic thoughts and seack prorofessional help, from being tired from missery . Example a women need it keidny transplant, she hated Muslims. When she decided to meet that person. He was a Muslim. Her hate dissapeard.

      6. Your comment was totally uncalled for and I resent how you could generalize an entire ethnic group whilst structuring such an absurd remark. This has absolutely nothing to do with ones haplotype, rather these are conditions that mankind suffers as a whole. It’s also ironic how your careless response displays “covert-aggression” smh. Stop the hate already.

      7. The only way non dark poeple will understand (would you exchange your skin color for a black, about 97% will never do it. Why, because their live stile would change 360 degr. Poeple i ask this question cant say honestly i will not and find all kind of excusses to go around. Others are honest and say no way. Through history humans wore and are very nomadic, there for there is not such thing as pure race. And by pure ignorance and fear of the unkonwn. The most discriminated in the whole are blacks. And generalisation is a very distorted cognition. Humans tend to do that eather, conditioning scince childhood or a negative expirience perhaps in your case with 2 or 5 black poeple. Like so many discriminate Muslims. A freind had only one bad expience and now hates them all. His hate and anger became so strong, that i had to move on.

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  2. My ex fits every one of the criteria above. Power, punish, advantage, malice, the thrill and he has no good character traits or conscience. How on earth do you deal with such a person? He is sitting back enjoying the hurt he is causing me in particular but if his son is in the firing line so be it! He’s too busy drinking his beers, watching his football, gambling etc… with his new found buddies.

    In fact this snippet from your post, my ex actually said to me though not in those exact words… ” Some even have such deficits in empathy that simply doesn’t bother them enough to think twice when it comes to harming someone else. They’ll do what others generally wouldn’t dare simply because they don’t care.”

    So it doesn’t matter what I do he knows exactly what he is and doesn’t care…if I’m reasonable he takes advantage, if I decide not to play his game he punishes…it’s an on going vicious circle. All the while I try my best to not speak negatively about him to my son but it gets damn hard!

    I’m so angry at times but I rein it in…go and mow the lawn or do something equally as energetic just to throw it away. My garden has never looked better ha ha!

    I need to let all his manipulations go, I’m so tired of trying to get him to do the right thing. Not sure how while still living with triggers all around me but when reading above I realise there’s no point trying to fight him and no wonder they do get away with it. They wear you down to a point that to save yourself you have to turn your back on it all to survive emotionally and physcially. The stress has left me a shadow of my former self, literally. I no longer want to dwell on this evil presence in my life…I’m going to fix me I’m all my son has! Thanks for this post Dr Simon I really needed to read this. I think finally I realise he’s not worth a smidgen of thought on my part. Today he is off the books and I take back my power for good!

    1. Women seem to love and want to have children with men like this. Otherwise, why else would they even start a relationship with such a man when there are plenty of single men with consciences? And, abuse is never one way.

      1. You may think it is an all simple cut and dry process of making bad choices. These CD individuals are chameleons. Why do you think that so many of them are in positions of power and control and are elected by people. The whole topic of CD also includes the individuals who run corporations and run our country not just personal relationships.

        The infection of these insidious CD individuals have sucked in whole nations. It’s on epidemic proportion rampant in our country. So as you are confining your reflection of the effect of these CD individuals on a small group of victims hoodwinked into being fooled you fail to see the whole picture.

        In regards to personal relationships this could be a lengthy conversation. You see many of these CD individuals manipulate and exude a persona opposite of whom they become after the marriage certificate is signed. Then Mr. Hyde slowly and insidiously works his subtle mind control games on the unsuspecting person. Over time and this is a lengthy process and the CD personality traits are continuing to evolve all the other manipulative practices of gas lighting enter the picture.

        Its not that cut and dry, there are many variable and aspects to these situations that are extremely subtle to the unsuspecting party. When you say abuse is never one way I suspect you have not been a victim or have any in depth research knowledge of the world of the CDNSP.

        “Abuse is never one way.” Really, are you insinuating the unsuspecting spouses, parents, children, employers of the CD are abusive too?

        1. S,

          Why are you even on this forum? Seems as if you’ve not read any topic of Character Disorder, yet you want to make a blanket statement that women love to have children with abusive men and that they are abusing at the same time.

      2. Because I’m most cases, they are very different in the beginning. ..very endearing. I have been in this type of relationship for 20 years and until we got married he was a very different man.

        1. Shanin Curtis,
          Once you signed the marriage certificate/contract for many this is the day the CD feel they have the right to take ownership. I know it’s so unbelievable, you ask yourself, how do you ever know someones true intentions.

      3. Because many of them wear a mask to hide their true selves leaving their partner hurt and bewildered.
        By the time his mask came off I was undergoing reconstructive surgery.

      4. We are played from the start . They play up to be the wonderful man. But slowly as the months even years go by he starts to reveal his real personallity and its to late. Thats why it happens not because we choose these men. Its a game and a sence of control.

      5. The amount that you DON’T know about abuse is staggering. Women don’t get into relationships with abusers because they know he’s an abuser. That wolf hides in sheep’s clothing for a very long time. If an abuser started abusing the girl they are dating within the first 6 months, most women would kick em to the curb. The abuser doesn’t show these signs until he feels that he has control and maybe she has no where to go.

        1. This hiding in wolves clothing can go on for a very long time. Many times the wolf stays in hiding till the marriage certificate is signed. What a wonderful wedding present!!!!!!

          There are always a few tells, usually, the kind a normal person would ignore. Knowledge is power, and always deal in truth, accept no less than the truth, know and build firm boundaries. And as one of our posters Eudox reiterates “Know Thyself.”

        2. Tammy you are 100% correct about how they do it and at what point. I am speaking from experience, of my relationship and not just hearing it from other’s, I lived it and still am. It’s not that easy to just get up and go, many people say and think otherwise but until they, those who think it’s easy as they say, until they or someone they care and love go through it maybe then they will understand it’s not so easy. Yes it’s mainly done, the CD, who plays head games, playing with your emotions and heart. Once the CD see’s or feels they are going to lose you and the CD knows you (me) don’t care and ready to leave they make you fall all in love again cause they say their going to change and they do and only for awhile until they (CD) know that you (me) fell for it and love them again, all that charm and love is gone and the torment and misery begin again. I stay cause I see, think or hope that if he can be like that even for a little while, I know he has it in him and just might change and stay that way, being the man that I know he can be and the one I fell in love with, hoping that it will be like that forever and never going back to being bad ever again. Idk if I’m just stupid for thinking that one day he will change or is it that I just love him so much that I can’t give up, honestly idk what it is or why I stick it out after 16 year’s, it’s still the same. I really wish I knew what to do, my mind say’s leave and my heart says stay. My mind and heart can’t bare much more pain, tired of hurting but I just can’t just let go of him. I guess I’m just lost.

          1. There is nothing I can think of that would be worse than being on your death bed with the sickening regret that you did not try to have happiness and peace in your life. I am telling you now “ you cannot lose HOPE” I do not care if it is seems like false hope, it’s still hope. U would be so surprised how your life CAN change. Prepare,Prepare, Think of what you will need to survive. I do not care if it’s squirreling away a 5 dollar bill @ a time, getting a 10.00 gift card from the grocery store added to your grocery bill. Make plans@ least. Rome was not built in a day. There are plenty of resourses out there. Do research. I know from experience, I have come out on the other side. How can you love someone who does not respect you. What a turn off. They do it because they know they can and you are the only one that can put that to bed. Just listen to your inner voice or you will live a life of soul torture. You can do it! Take baby steps. Go girl!

          2. Dee,

            I totally agree with C.C.C. below. It does not get better or easier in my experience. I lost more and more of my self, my strength/power. They do not get better in my experience. They get worse.

            Think of the bravest person you know of, even if they are a character. What would they do? Start with a shelter or abuse hotline perhaps for support/tips? Be stealth (very important), strategic and find your courage, strength and equally important, power. With each step you take, you’ll be empowering yourself and one step closer to freedom. You can do this and you are so worth it!

      6. Many a women didn’t have much choice, as just go back to the 70’s, a man could beat his wife and wasn’t much a sheriff could do about it. Many financial transactions were out on the man. Ever heard the term man of the house. Then the lower pay women would receive. Where call it inherited thought. Which if a woman left, where could she go? After many years of thinking this is normal without escape, it’s part of life. Also, who could a woman turn to? Who’s be willing to give of themselves to provide refuge and sanctuary? Those with motives surely. Where there’s many to say it’s ashame. Now there’s been evil hearted women too. But thinking such is normal does apply to some. Beaten down, there’s no more drive or choices. Again, there have been legitamate good hearted people give of themselves significantly to provide shelters.
        Where there’s mean spirited and hard hearted types that are simply cruel.
        Nice and friendly in front of others but mean as hell hidden from sight.
        Bullies are like this.
        Big and bad, but so many when engaged by another of equal spirit who’ll just their rear, they show cowardness.
        Not to mention tell stories how they want things heard. Some of someone else is involved in part of it, they’ll tell the story how it better be told. Then so convincing, others believe it.
        Several women have many teeth missing. Which being beaten down, they go into seclusion. Outcasts.
        Then so many that never experienced misery aren’t concerned about such. Actually, they have it so good, they wouldn’t want to step down from their life of pleasure. Which you can’t give up all. But believe me, there’s some terrible people in this world. There’s many that know it too. Just read the above, although most southerners I’ve known were too poor themselves to afford slaves.
        Again, believing in God, it’s those who profess God that are supposed to help relieve anothers’ sufferings. Yet go so deep in misery, there’s nothing of yourself to give.
        Ever watched the movie, ” Enough”? Many aren’t fortunate enough to escape.
        There’s probably some in prison where they snapped and went off on their oppressors. Nobody asks to be hurt, mistreated or stepped on.
        Just like any number have the idea of why doesn’t a victim right back. Answer, they’ll get the crap kicked out of them that much more.
        Again, there’s many who are good hearted and have tried to help. Some have succeeded, some, feel helpless themselves.
        Also the legal system can work against others who try to help.
        I never heard a preacher to date state the fact, the violent won’t go to heaven. Distinguishing necessary force, just force compared to a natural violent disposition. It takes force to control force.
        Look at many of the Bible, they were generally mild mannered. Even gentle. But I never heard a preacher mention that. Our society reinforced machoism. So to speak contrary to this could step on someones’ toes.
        Lol, I’ve known some mild, good natured people who also were kind that could whip macho guys home end. Then what’s touching, there’s others by themselves can’t do anything, but in numbers they launch counter attacks in defense of the innocent. Call them bleeding hearts, I love em.
        Where having a heart to concern ones’ self about another, that’s Godliness.
        As I’ve referenced many black people before where they were mistreated. Where they know what it’s like. Then others who never experienced such have this thing in their head things were told to them, where they hate white people. Where some have become uppity just like others, where they try to control someone. Being the same thing many hate. Control freaks.
        But many were so mistreated.
        Again there’s simply this thing where certain numbers will also look to help the oppressed but actually calculate how they can benefit from those that pretend to help. Exploiters, who aren’t going to heaven. But I never heard a sermon on that eitheir.
        Again, there’s others who’ll fake things, go all through the motions trying to play on others sympathy or entrap them when someone naive attempts to help. Despicable lack of character, where they also cause many to become gun shy or hesitant to help another.
        I’ll get off this, but just a little information for why.

    2. Wow I was amazed to read what you write. I live with the same thing, feel the same way about it. I’m exhausted and feel defeated. I can’t stand life like this any longer and realize this person can’t even hear logic. He lives outside of reality. I’m so sick of being his victim. I wish I could take my life back. Thank you for your comment at least I know I’m not alone. Yet I still have no answers. God bless.

      1. Welcome Grace,
        I read your post and am so sorry you are so exhausted and feel defeated. Many of us have gone through what you are expressing and I hope you keep posting. We have many good people here who are more than willing to reach out and help you as much as possible. Hopefully, we can help you find answerers.
        God Bless

        1. Btov thank you so much for your response. I woke up today wondering what creative positive energy I could follow, only to find he had sabotaged the materials for that as well. It’s a non-stop mental, emotional, physical warfare I try to weather. I’m a creative, I have wanted to write on the subject of people like myself and how we attract the type of person I’m involved with now. I feel trapped at this point. Writing is a a million miles away. My every belonging being destroyed, under garments, clothes, plants, absolutely anything I have an interest in… It’s incredible. I can’t even bring myself to wrap my mind around it, and yet I am in the presence of a shark. My options are little to none but I know need to leave… somehow. Somehow.

          1. Grace,

            There are some things you should do before you leave, without him knowing it. Don’t let him know that you will leave. I need time to write out the things you need to do but busy at work at the moment. You need to snoop around, gather documents, mail, all financial information you can get your hands on. You need to open your own bank account, your name only, not letting him know. You need to take the money from savings before he does. Some of these things you must do right before you leave, because he will find out you’ve done it and don’t want to be living under the same roof. You need to get your name off of credit cards that he’ll be using. Right before you leave you need to take out the savings account money and put it in an account in your name only. Hang on till you can do these things. When your financials are in order, get the hell out of there. See if a friend will take you in till you can get on your feet.
            I wished I’d done my homework before I left. I didn’t but I sure did get other things done quickly. Expect the worse from him. You need to think ahead.
            You can do this. I did it. Do not wait till you crumble and are weak. Do this while you still have the energy. Outsmart him. Have a plan. It’s all about money and safety at this point. If you want out you most certainly can get out of this situation. You are not his prisoner.
            Now I’m angry – angry for you at him. I’ve got my own monster I’m dealing with – and I draw strength from others here who are fighting the fight.
            Keep posting. We are listening. Fight the fight!
            I know – they do freaky things normal people don’t do. Just know some people are evil to the core. Your spouse sounds like one of those. Unbelievable stuff. We get it. These shitbags (SB) will thump and thump will you have nothing left. Don’t get to that point.
            I’ll be checking on you. Hope I can be of some help.

          2. Grace,
            Lucy gave you a lot of good advice. I am going to add some other angles and I am sure other posters will chime in with more good suggestions for you.

            First of all make sure he doesn’t have your password and every time you post make sure you delete all your history so the CD doesn’t know that you are on to him. Be very careful and above all else don’t educate him, he isn’t going to change.

            I would also repost under another name! OK, Gordy or Greg or whatever, just use an alias and we will know its you. We all need to be very safe. You don’t say if you are married and for how long or if the CD is a significant other, children etc…. This will make a difference in how to approach your leaving if you so choose. We also understand how difficult is to reach out.

            If you have little or no money there exists in most major metropolitan areas what is called a Woman’s Resource Center. They usually have counselors you can talk to for free, also they have group meetings for individuals that are dealing with domestic violence or abuse. That is exactly what the (Character Disordered Malignant Narcissistic Sociopathic Psychopath) CDMNSP is an abuser of our minds, hearts and souls.

            These Resource Centers will also let you reside there if you have no where to go, it is a humbling experience to say the least. You will find you share many things in common with these individuals regardless of your socio economic circumstances.

            Read as much as you can in the archives and educate yourself. Knowledge is power and you will need to know how these individuals think. There is so many stories here and I think you will find yourself empowered after awhile.

            Take very good care and keep posting, truly, people do care and will help you. To where ever you are I am praying God send you angels to watch over you.

            Blessings

          3. Woooo!!! I know exactly how you feel. I’ve to lose myself in this relationship and for some odd reason I still love her and keep fighting to make it work. I have lefted her and met someone else that loves me and doesn’t do anything like this to me anymore. But I feel so destroyed that I can’t give the new girl my heart and I even think about going back to the ex. It’s sad that this is what I’ve become because of someone else. I have to find a way to snap out of this.

    3. Well said,, I have the same problem with an girlfriend that I can’t seem to let go. I love her to death. I’ve broken up with her but she promises to be right for me. But she’ll lie just to get me back and in position to hurt me at will..

    4. So powefull,I love what you wrote my story is do similar to yours I too have a son with a fucked up disturbed jerk who is jealous, envious ,malicious ,narcissistic pig,non empathetic towards other a truly evil and rotten individing who has hurt me and my kids so bad ,and keep going and going. But iv ed decided this year to let go ,I probably need to pray for this I’ll minded person.but I really need to get on with my life for my dons sake.

      1. There is 211 I think is a hotline to provide help. With resources.
        There’s victim assistance programs that are supposed to provide help too.

      2. Laura,

        If your partner is a CD then you need to take extreme precautions. Do not think for one minute they are human. They look like us, but that’s it. They are inhuman monsters capable of inflicting the most incredible harm.

        My suggestion is to read many of the posts and comments on this blog. There is a wealth of information to be found here. Buy Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing and Character Disturbance so you know exactly what you are dealing with.

        CD are like Dementors from Harry Potter and that is no exaggeration.

        There is a lot of support here on this site, you posted on a really old article there are more updated ones to be found. It is also important you never let him know you are onto him and it is of critical importance you absolutely know what you are dealing with and what to do and above all WHAT NOT TO DO.

        They do not related to reality like normal people, they are totally alien to most of us and highly destructive. Understand what you are dealing with because if he’s CD (Character Disturbed) he’s considerably more than just a disturbed jerk. He’s a very dangerous disturbed predator.

        Stay safe

  3. I’ve been a fan of your work for over a year now … It’s finally something that makes sense when it comes to disturbed characters in comparison to the confusing Mumbo-jumbo if psychological ‘explanation’ for why some people are just plain mean and continue to behave that way despite the destruction they cause. I was very naive about character, believing that others automatically thought the same way as I did. I now know this type of thinking is dangerous because disturbed characters pick up on it and tend to be drawn to naive people simply because they know that person probably will make excuses for their behaviour. After being the target of emotional and psychological bullying and abuse throughout the years in various situations because I was naive and thought everyone had a conscience and wanted the best for everyone else, I’ve finally woken up to the not so pleasant truth (I was a slow learner but I learned). Now I keep my eyes and ears open and look for certain patterns of behaviour in my dealings with others. It’s not paranoia, it’s just common sense. I actively eliminate toxic people out if my life (those who continue a toxic pattern of behaviour) and I’m so much more liberated for it. I refuse to let these disturbed and just plain mean and vicious individuals try to lower my self-esteem or steal from my self-worth any more. Thanks again Dr. Simon for opening my eyes. More naive neurotics like me need to get with the program.

    1. Thank you for such kind words. The validation really means a lot. It always has and continues to inspire my work. And thinks for sharing your sentiments, which were very well stated.

      1. I could not agree more! My DIL fits this to a T! She only has room for Her family and limits our times with her family to barely minimal! My son is naive, kind hearted, and simply allows her to be mean! They have 2 babies, a 2 yr old and a 3week old. We have Never baby sat the oldest and only spent less than 2 hours with them in Mobile when baby was born! They named the baby 1st and middle name after HER mom! So much for “doing unto others as you would have them do unto you!” I too am much more cautious when meeting people! Trust me, I am NOT an over bearing, possessive, interfering MIL! Just about as normal as they come!

        1. Makes me sad. Because I had a mean narcissist MIL and my own mother is a narcissist. I would love to have a normal loving family. People who truly care. 🙁 you’re DIL makes me sad. To reject loving caring people. And I can’t find any ever in my life. 🙁

          1. I know how you feel Im in a relationship with a narcissist and my mother is one they are cruel and heartless. I would love to just have a loving caring family. would relly like an understanding friend as well.

          2. Hi wendi,

            On this blog we all know about these experiences. I welcome you to continue to post. We have a very eclectic group or shall I say family of Kindred spirits. No one should have to deal with this alone and many of us do. I believe that is the reason Dr. Simon created this blog, to bring all us empaths together, to share our stories, our knowledge, our pain, our courage to go forward and most of all validating support.

            Wendi, I hope to see your posts and again welcome you.

      2. Dr.Simon is there a way that we could help them change and make them see that they have a problem? What can we do to make them see how they are and that they are exactly like this? I know my husband he will laugh at me and tell me that I am the one who need’s help and meds, he always tells me that I’m the one who is crazy and not him. I do love him but at the same time, at time’s, I can’t stand him, only cause how he is mean to me so many times.

        1. Dee,

          Almost all CD individuals know exactly what they are doing. You just said he will laugh at you, a mature adult person does not do this to another.

          I would suggest you read Dr. Simons books, especially “In Sheeps Clothing and Character Disturbance including the other two. I would also suggest you read the various topics in the archives of this blog.

          Many posters have asked the same question you ask and the answer is always the same, “They Know What They Are Doing.” I found this out too, I had hoped it wasn’t true, the deeper I dug the worse it got.

          I welcome you to keep posting to the blog and ask as many questions you would like. There is a great group of people who post here and I am sure will chime in.

          Dr. Simon also has many You Tubes on the topic of CD and you will benefit from watching them. I have attached a link to one of Dr. Simons You Tubes and hope this helps. I am sorry I couldn’t give you the hope you are looking for.

          Truthfully, the only person we can help is ourselves. Again, this blog is rich with information, personal experiences and knowledge. I personally wish you the best.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Vv0qpK_mE

    2. SM, it’s that when we try to “understand” vicious folks, we don’t understand that the simplest explanation is all to understand them.

    3. Also, since there’s been some talk about delusions here, another important point: Even when a vicious power-freak is genuinely deluded, what I’ve concluded is that delusion, in that case, is a result of agendas.

    4. I could not agree more! My DIL fits this to a T! She only has room for Her family and limits our times with her family to barely minimal! My son is naive, kind hearted, and simply allows her to be mean! They have 2 babies, a 2 yr old and a 3week old. We have Never baby sat the oldest and only spent less than 2 hours with them in Mobile when baby was born! They named the baby 1st and middle name after HER mom! So much for “doing unto others as you would have them do unto you!” I too am much more cautious when meeting people! Trust me, I am NOT an over bearing, possessive, interfering MIL! Just about as normal as they come!

    5. Righton ,I did this with 4 very negative toxic people in 2016.I’m a very nice person and also thought the way you did.but it’s almost like i attract some rotten people at times ,then I see how malicious they and I get a rude awakening then I do everything I can to get rid of them ,I’ve gotten do much better st catching it.but I’m glad I have .

  4. To spark up some conversation here: Folks, when you’re recovering from these vicious people, what have you experienced works and what not so much?

  5. Time works. Education works. Validation of your experience through self education and sharing experiences works. Talking to someone who is experienced and trained in this area works. Absolutely NO CONTACT works.
    Self blame and self judgement doesn’t work. Feeling and purging the raw emotions works. Accepting the truth and reality of how different this is from a normal relationship ending and adjusting my expectations accordingly works.

  6. I agree with Puddle No Contact…if possible I share a son with mine so it’s hard juggling the well being of your son and then yourself. So it has to be minimal contact…yet now I’ve decided complete cut off for a period of time until we’re somewhere he doesn’t know about.
    If you feel unsafe or they’ve been violent…move, get safe.
    Giving yourself time to grieve over what you lost or what you thought you had and not bottling that up works.
    Definitely talk to counsellors they have been invaluable to me. Telephones or face to face with your own psychologist is worth every cent spent. (if you get a good one and luckily I did). I am only feel strong enough to make serious decision because of these professionals.
    I agree sharing experiences, education, get as much information as you can so you understand what’s happened to you and you are not crazy. Though I think you have to have space away from reading about it too much, it’s easy to get obsessed and I’m not sure that’s always helpful. Well that’s what I’m finding… that time to put him right to the back of my mind and get on with something new like my own life!
    Take walks and remember the beauty out there in the world, nature has a way of taking over even if it’s for a moment. Smile and engage with people even if you don’t feel like it…again a happy exchange or smile with a stranger can make you feel better about yourself and help regain your trust.
    Don’t beat yourself up either about past mistakes it’s not worth it and gets you no where. Acknowledged them, and move on.

      1. Thanks Danny 🙂 I just thought of another important one…don’t put a time limit on yourself to heal…the roller coaster goes up and down for a long time. So heal at your own pace…and don’t listen to those who say just “GET OVER IT” they have no idea what trauma you’ve been through. At times I’ve got impatient with myself thinking I should be feeling better but that’s not how this works. And when you feel that anger brewing as I’ve said before I can highly recommend gardening…and not being flippant, it works a treat all the pulling, slashing and digging very therapeutic.

        1. Tori, I’ve also read that recovery is not a linear process so you can be in one place one day and think you are really making progress and then something comes up, a memory or an encounter and you might feel like you are back to square one…….but you are not. Basically, all steps forward count even if you take a couple steps backwards sometimes. It’s just important to process all of the experience and the feelings.
          Right now I just look at it like having an arm amputated…….my life will never be the SAME but that probably won’t matter in the long run or the big picture because eventually I will learn to live with it and move on.

          1. Oh Puddle you don’t know how much I needed to read this today. As I felt like I had slid so far backward… I needed to hear that all the steps I’ve made count. I keep making them but it feels like to no avail…my friends all get on with their lives the same as usual for them and here I am still in limbo land somewhat…no matter how many strides forward I’ve made. Certainly is a roller coaster that just never stops.
            You’re so right about never being the same…that person that I was seems so buried under the trauma and emotion. I so want her back but I know the journey is a long one.

          2. Tori…..I know what you mean……forever changed. But think of it this way sweetie, things happen to people in life, some things are worse than others and people just have to push on and do the best they can with the sh*t pile that either life or another person dealt them. This is your life now and there is no undoing it. I don’t say that to be depressing but more along the lines of acceptance and to emphasize you and I needing to love ourselves and KNOW that we have been dealt an extremely unfair hand. It’s not a hand that most people know what to do with and they will NEVER understand what we have been through which adds a whole other layer of difficulty to the recovery process.
            We need to know that WE know what happened, WE see what happened and WE experienced the abuse and continue to experience the pain. it’s not the same as recovering or regrouping after a difficult relationship. There are many elements that make this so different.
            Keep the faith Tori…….look for the good in your life, the beauty that is in the world around you despite the pain of this, your love for your son……I’m not saying to bury your head in the sand and pretend it’s all ok but do try to put as much attention as you possibly can on the things in your life that bring you peace no matter how small.
            (((((HUGS TORI)))))

    1. FYI…….I was talking to someone today who’s daughter went through one of these nightmares and the most important thing for anyone to KNOW it that this was done TO you. You ARE/ WERE a victim. You have been attacked in an insidious, covert way that most people on the face of this planet couldn’t even begin to wrap their head around and if you are a woman who had a sexual relationship with one of these creatures, it IS rape, rape by deception but it gets none of the understanding or sympathy that rape by force gets and can be even harder to recover from because of the emotional bonding and betrayal aspect.
      Sadly, I think there are more victims out there than anyone realizes. I would imagine that just like in rape by force, there are a lot of victims who are too embarrassed to really come forward about what has happened to them,,,,,,,or too exhausted or went off the deep end…….or worse.
      When someone is twisting your heart and mind at the same time but you don’t know enough to KNOW that is what they are doing????? In my mind any “”mistakes”” I made really weren’t mistakes. I don’t know how to put this clearly enough.

      1. Ive been reading and feels as if im reading about
        What happens here, im not a saint nor do i claim to be without a mouth that cant fight back,butttt i dont like it and feel maybe words might gurt him n noooo they dont, malioysly will hurt me in everyway even if that means hurting our daughter, destroying my car, hurts iur daughter beings is her way to n from school and everywhere else, i swear i feel that if i was dying infront of him during his anger he would let me die and prob. Spit on Me to n then speak to me as im gone saying you should have kept your mouth shut now look your dead!? “/ never will ever take accountability for nothing, if it rains, n he needed it not to. Was my fault!

        1. Gina,

          I feel as you are writing this, you are in a panic and physically crying out for someone to acknowledge the insanity you are describing. Listen to your gut, it is warning you and your gut is right. Follow it, not your heart or what you may want to hope and think. Your gut instincts will lead you the right way.

      2. Tori and Puddle,
        One thing that helps me is to remember the principle of treating others the way you want to be treated in the area of how you talk about them. Calling someone a sh!tbag doesn’t lift you up and you wouldn’t want someone calling you names of that kind. Work on yourself and take your focus off of the other person because that is the ONLY way you will become empowered to take back your like. If you have to have contact as in shared children, business, etc., then stay cool, calm and collected and never resort to name calling or attacking as this will disempower you because you are coming from a position of defensiveness. In other words from the one down position. And lastly if you truly want to be free, forgive from the heart. Then you can move on freely.

        1. Thank you for that , defensiveness seem rife and that is just a sign of something that need intervention either by the set orprofessiona; in addition i have learned to forgive the self first it makes forgiving others automatic

      3. You’re only a victim if you allow yourself to be a victim and it seems there’s an abundance of victims on this page and then I’ve read about all the nasty little things that are being advised for one to do to the other. It’s no wonder there’s probably a lot of ass whippings being handed out and everybody can cry about being victimized when in reality they brought it on themselves.

        1. Darren,
          Very kind of you to judge. I guess you were lucky enough not to have narcissistic parents. Children/victims brought it upon themselves. We deal in truth and protecting oneself. On the other hand we encourage one to grow our humanity to love with compassion and empathy. We learn to protect ourselves and grow into our authentic self which we were covertly deprived of. We deal in truth.

          Blessings and may the truth set you free……..

        2. A psychopath always blames their victims – thanks for sharing your compassionate, caring nature with us – it’s always refreshing to know when there is a fox in the hen house early in the piece. Also what I find interesting these days is CDs are becoming a lot more obvious. What you refer to as victims I refer to as survivors – beautiful people who have grown and discovered the inherent goodness in themselves is a virtue few actually have. As CDs lack any type of virtue by their very own lack of sincere character by demonstration of course, and as they can’t help but to boast about this as it makes them feel superior then it gives those who do chose to live their lives authentically and in truth a real benefit. We can see you. Thanks for that.

      4. Agreed. These covert narcs need to be held accountable. That mind rape. Soul rape. Financial tape. Sexual rape. They are sick and justice needs to be served for the filthy beings they are.

      1. I’m familiar with the concepts but not the label of Transpersonal Therapy. My understanding is that this is more of a general approach geared towards early traumas?

      2. J, some of Arthur Janov’s ideas are VERY interesting. “Primal Therapy”? He wrote the book “Primal Scream” a long time ago.

      3. “Transpersonal Therapy seeks to help those on a spiritual path by providing experiences of transcendence and supporting the new awareness that develops.”

        Also, considering I’ve read about people having a spiritual crisis or emergency after trauma(e.g. Bully in sight by Tim Field), perhaps transpersonal therapy would also be of use?

      4. “Janov criticizes the talking therapies as they deal primarily with the cerebral cortex and higher-reasoning areas and do not access the source of Pain within the more basic parts of the central nervous system.”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primal_therapy

        Reminds me of neocortex, limbic brain and lizard brain. Helps explain how some things stay on the emotional level without really reaching neocortex.

        1. J,
          ” Helps explain how some things stay on the emotional level without really reaching neocortex.”

          I see this so clearly in myself……how emotional responses and reactions can seem to come out of nowhere and be so powerful that i can’t hold them back. I know I have a lot of very early trauma from neglect and abuse. I will never understand how I could possibly work through things that are from such an early part of my existence that I don’t even remember them or have words for them.
          It’s all very fascinating……there are emotions that follow thoughts and then there are just primal emotions which might be better described as feelings. Not sure. I know that what I felt during all of this mess with Spathtardx felt very primal and that is where and how he hooked me……right in my deepest wound.

  7. I agree with you, Puddle. After this all happened to me, I really enjoy just being by myself. I think it is because I know that I am safe and no one is going to trick me. I have found great peace and solace in God and nature.

    I’ve noticed that I don’t like to be in tight crowds or noisy places. I am irritable when someone oversteps my boundaries. I don’t hesitate to take action if needed, but I try to be peaceful about it.

      1. However, it doesn’t take long for me to loose my peaceful mind set when someone starts testing my boundaries of minimizing my concerns or what I’ve been through. THAT just happened last week and it was NOT pretty. I will not be apologizing for any of it either because this person stepped all over my direct, clear boundary. thumbed his nose and showed some serious signs of CD.

        1. “. . . Today I shall be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness – all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good or evil. But for my part I have long perceived the nature of good and its nobility, the nature of evil and its meanness, and also the nature of the culprit himself, who is my brother (not in the physical sense, but as a fellow creature similarly endowed with reason and a share of the divine); therefore, none of those things can injure me, for nobody can implicate me in what is degrading.’”…………………Marcus Aurelius

          Bugger them Puddle no need to apologize for sure – we have compassion and the ability to learn and accept others are different without judgement hence no need for condemnation which is only a result of judgment. Then those who scold friends as a result of condemnation and judgement end up with none :- Funny old world we live in eh? He who lives by the sword etc………….

          Bright blessings -smile-

          1. Wow dude I can only say you are at the peak of maturity and can even soar (something’s are limitless

    1. The only action often needed is to walk away with your dignity in tact because should I arrive later at the scene I won’t know who is better, nobler, right in spite of race; I won’t see the difference and I won’t even bother to ask, I will only walk away in disgrace as two humans would have failed human society: its a shame should any person start to reason in terms of black and white, it is more like either/or, more like not reckoning there is variety, not realizing there are other options; that is what creation is about; we are a part of that variety and not back/white only that we are dynamic, especial, endowed creatures and it is about time we act like it because the endowment was for a reason and not for the hell of it

      1. Hi Christina,

        Welcome to Dr Simon’s site. It is a fairly active blog with a lot of good resources and articles. It is an interesting journey indeed that brings us here. I found this site when I was struggling to find meaning in what I had experienced, after all it’s what brings us here in the first place.

        There is a good core support group here, so enjoy and welcome aboard.

        Bright blessings to you.

        Eudoxia

  8. I’d be interested in anyone’s opinions on when CD makes a suicidal comment along with a veiled threat? I would assume it’s to punish and try to get you to feel sorry or concede to a request for your own good…or as Dr Simon points out there will be hell to pay. I was trying to find a post centred on this topic, it’s one I find disturbing for a variety of reasons.

    1. Contact a mental health professional? I dunno, perhaps that would teach them to make suicidal threats.

      Unless it’s an abuser you’ve just left behind, in which case NO CONTACT would still be the best thing to do?

      1. Good answer J……….I think you can also call the police. Or tell them that the next time they threaten to commit suicide you will call the police and that you are taking what they say seriously so if they don’t mean it then they mean to stop saying it.

        1. Yes, after many an occasion when my wife would leave the home in a strop after yet another hissy fit, not answering our phone calls or returning calls, I would leave her a message (or text her) saying that if she was not home by midnight, I would call the police and report her as a missing person. It worked – she soon stopped the habit. Though I do like the suggestion to call a mental health professional – will keep that suggestion in my back pocket….if ever needed.

    2. Over the years, my wife has made several veiled or more direct threats to end her own life. Usually after a verbal altercation in the home resulting in her not getting her own way, she has grabbed a knife as though to end her life (but done nothing), left the home and refused to answer her phone after making veiled threats to end her life, returned home and said she was so upset she felt herself about to uncontrollably drive into an oncoming bus, overdosed (claiming she was going to end her life – in reality she took a small handful of tablets). After a while I grew wise to her methods and taught myself not to react or panic in the way she wanted. I sent emails to her doctor outlining my concerns, spoke to him several times on the matter but was purposefully kept at arms length away from actually accompanying her to the doctor because she didn’t want me to reveal what was *actually* happening – in case it blew her attempts to claim she was ‘depressed’. It was [always usually] a desperate attempt to manipulatively gain sympathy from others in an attempt to controllably get her own way.

      The key point is that after the event, even just a few days after the incident had passed, she never ever referred to it again – unless months or years after, as a means of rewriting history and claiming the event was more serious than it actually was.

      Yes, very disturbing!!!

      1. Danny…………while with Spathtardx and in the midst of emotional trauma at his hands, in so much pain and confusion………I did, on more than one occasion tell him that I FELT like killing myself, hitting a tree (while driving in my car on the phone with him)…….i wish i could explain this to someone, how not like a suicide threat it was. I never held a gun to my head or a knife to my throat or pills to my mouth, etc…….what do you make of this? He had my brain so spun out it was the only way i could TRY to get him to understand how much his callous words and actions were hurting my at the time and in my head??? It was as if my brain was going to explode from the abrupt change in demeanor he was displaying.
        Saying you feel like killing yourself and actually saying you are going to kill yourself or doing something like hold a gun to your head in a threatening way are different in my mind. I also said to him “why don’t you just hit me” one time because the way he was acting was so much more painful than anything he could have done to me physically. His response was this………” Do you think I’m stupid???”.
        What do you think?

        1. Puddle….I think I can see what you mean. As I understand your comments, you were reacting to what seemed to me an extreme feeling of exasperation through having dealings with someone who lacked empathy and who in the process was highly manipulative. Imv this is different to what I was confronted with. In other words someone who was using said suicide threats as a form of punishment and/or as a tool in an attempt to pressure me into conceding to an unreasonable request that they ultimately knew they had no rights. The threat was the last ditch attempt to get their own way…..and unreasonably so. Previously I would relent, then the dust would quickly settle once she had what it was she wanted. Over time I realised I had no rights whatsoever in reaching agreement in even the minutest of issues. So with the passing of every situation, I was given no consideration to my feelings and wishes and my wife had to have control over anything and everything. Until I finally woke up and implemented the change that is…..

          1. Danny, no…….this was not me trying to get my way as you describe. there was a strong feeling of utter shock or betrayal or complete disregard at the time and I know I was emotionally traumatized. What he had done in his manipulations was to create a false sense of emotional support or availability or….???……and in the times I speak of he pulled the rug out from under me and or pushed me off the emotional cliff. I felt like my entire being was cartwheeling through space and I can remember feeling so lost and disoriented. He had made himself so much a part of my life and existence that he was the only one I felt like could console me but he was also the one abusing me. It’s the way they operate apparently…..the seesaw that breaks you down and puts you back together again so you can be broken down again.
            The only “my way” I was seeking was to be treated fairly and like I meant everything to him he said I meant to him,,,,,,,,,,,well, I didn’t clearly.
            Thanks for responding Danny.

        2. Puddle I can completely relate to what you’re saying here as I experienced such anxiety and exasperation with his behaviour that sometimes I felt the same way… sometimes you really feel so helpless and it’s certainly not wanting your own way NO NOT AT ALL or a controlling mechanism it’s a cry for help or just feeling so caught up in a crazy situation and their crazy making schemes.
          I’ve heard it called reactive abuse but I really don’t like that term at all. Reactive emotion maybe but not abuse. I think it’s just absolute desperation and really not knowing what sort of person you are dealing with…it’s almost like trying to make sense of the pain you feel when you can’t make sense of it. (if I’m make any sense at all).

          1. Tori…..yes, it totally makes sense and it is reactive. The counselor I’m seeing now explained this to me…….its a REaction vs an intentional action. I can remember, that at the time, I just wanted/ needed the other “him” back because who ever this person was who was taunting me or speaking to me the way he was wasn’t him. It literally felt like he wasn’t even him………………oh contraire, this WAS him, it was the him he worked so hard to hide from me.
            You are making perfect sense and once again are speaking as if you were in my head.

          2. It’s maddening to try to deal with ASSUMPTIONS and accusations and to try to talk logically and rationalize and stay on point when your partner plays the reversal, stupid, and self defense card.

          3. Yes Jacqueline. And, best part is that he is faking stupidity. His only goal is to do what he likes, and minimize any resistance that others may offer.
            Someone once posted here that she had to repeat a simple question 10 times before she got something that resembled straight answer.

      2. Ah….rewriting history. I remember how I felt when I realized that he was actually buying his version of rewritten history. Anything to protect their own high opinion of themselves. I began to understand that these people were SERIOUSLY disordered. It goes way past having unhealthy social skills.

        1. Einstein……I remember as well……thinking, are you serious? That is NOT what happened/ what you said/ what i said, etc…..and being absolutely baffled. He would re-say something I had said with a snotty voice and I would ask him, “is that really how you heard me say that”? and he would say yes. Over blown, misinterpreted, completely wrong or off base, etc. So I bought it at the time and now I see it for what it was……manipulation. Horrible.

    3. 1. Contact the police,(they also can contact medical professionals 2. If you have a NCO then contact a relative who can check in on them and contact their Family Dr. All 3 should be contacted in a responsible manner, in fact writing the police statement including the conversation will give everyone involved the information to make a decision and if something happens in the future it will be already documented.

      One thought, Tori, you ? a suicidal comment along with a veiled threat. I have found that many CD will tell you what they are thinking by using comments, stories or statements of threats, whatever, that involve other people, when in fact they are speaking about their situation. I hope I am not being to vague. Blessings

    4. That is because they are never responsible for the quality of their own experiences. Don’t stress over them they are just trying to pass it to you so you feel the pain. They are a victim of themselves but hold others responsible for their own poor choices – they will never be responsible for anything they ever do. If they want to commit suicide then ignore them and hopefully they’ll do it. But they wont anyway. We can always live in hope though.

  9. Oh! I am so confused — does my husband really know what he is doing when he shuts me off? I have recently realized the tactics, that it’s not my fault — nearly 20 years of crazy-making and I woke up to see that all the time I’ve blamed myself for the way he acts. I truly did believe that the reason he disengaged was because of my overbearing, overpowering personality that made him feel worthless and I caused him to shut down. We don’t argue, he is a master at the silent treatment. I take care of all the finances (because “I get defensive if he mentions anything” – disregard the fact that after repeatedly trying to get him to sit down with me about money, he refuses so I gave up), I discipline the kids, because he 1) ignores them if they ask him, 2) without finishing the question, he tells them no or 3) He will answer and say “just do what you want, my opinion doesn’t matter”. I have prayed and given this so much thought and finally realized it started getting worse when I went back to school. I am doing very well in school and have been looking forward to using my degree to get a good job, that I enjoy and will, after 20 years of being a stay at home mom, be able to contribute to our family financially. My father in law recently told me that this is only going to add to my husband’s inferiority complex and I will make matters worse. So, do I continue to be manipulated by his covert abuse? Withholding (everything), refusing to make a decision and when confronted, it’s my fault he is silent, his boss is horrible, his co-workers are horrible, his clients are horrible. Is it lying when information is intentionally withheld? Little things, that are insignificant yet something a married person would share with one’s spouse. I’m rambling — I could go on and on, only realizing how crazy I sound and here, once again, I’m left thinking I am the crazy one and he is perfectly normal. I expect too much, he needs his down time, he requires more sleep than I do, so it’s okay that he goes to bed at 8:30-9 and yet I get up with him at 5:30. (my own doing and I am a late-nighter, early-riser anyway). He brags on me and then ignores me. He sounds so noble in our Sunday School class and yet treats me as if I don’t exist most of the time. Silently refuses to do anything I ask. Pictures on the wall? After a month and a half, I finally did them myself — no acknowledgment. — Someone on another post, the author of the post a self-proclaimed, no credentials “marriage coach” said I sound bitter and angry — asked “do you really want to be happy?” Hell yes I’m bitter and angry, I live on a maddening merry-go-round that I just realized after 20 years how dizzy it made me. Do I *really* want to be happy? What a redundant question, of course I do, but when one lives with a crazy-maker who constantly has you at bay and confused, happiness is a form of the mind game. The happier I get (and I have practiced at this) the angrier and more covertly he attacks. I have found myself falling into the same behavior pattern of silence and withholding information. Partly because it is a defense mechanism in that if I don’t tell him something, then I don’t suffer the pain inflicted by being ignored. I am calling a counselor today. My questions – can he change? Does he want to? When we had it out about this behavior a few months ago, he cried telling me he “just doesn’t know how to be a good husband, he tries, really and I’m the best thing that’s ever happened to him and he doesn’t know what he would do without me.” And I was sucked back in. I realize I am a recovering codependent and while I love him, I can’t be the “fixer” anymore. Understanding this is part of the turbo-charged covert behavior. When the co-dependent stops dancing, the covert-aggressor goes into overdrive. My apologies for rambling —

  10. So confused……It sounds to me like you need to keep reading and researching and I think the answers to your questions will present themselves to you. Learning about these types is a process and recovering from the abuse they inflict is a process, both unlike anything else I’ve ever been through and I’m 54.
    Can he change? Does he want to? Think about you even needing to ask that question to someone. Don’t you think that if he wanted to change it would be rather obvious because of his actions and behaviors? If he is not showing you in his actions that he wants to change then………he probably does not. Unless he has been living on the moon or under a rock, he should know that there IS help for people who want it and if he was truly motivated to get the help you would see some kind of evidence reflected in his actions. People that WANT to do something DO and people who don’t want to do something DON’T.
    Good luck So Confused……please keep reading and researching.

  11. Recently my dearest friend suddenly died. My adult daughter who is married to a controlling and crude man knew my deceased friend so I called her to let her know. We have had many problems since she married however I thought that this might be an opportunity for her and I to mend some past hurts.

    After getting no response I tried her husband’s phone and got a voice message telling me that they did not care who died including me and to enjoy my ” perfect family” referring to my son and his wife who are both kind and decent people. My son in law a few years back beat my son unmercifully when he was unable to defend himself. I became quite angry with him and let him know this and hung up.

    Years of trying to make some peace with my daughter has taken a toll on me both physically and mentally. I have been denied access to my granddaughters. I did not even know about the youngest baby. My son and his wife tried to offer support when my daughter’s first baby was born with serious health issues as did me and my husband. We drove a thousand miles with no break to show love and support when my SIL called us with the sad news. My SIL tried to pick a disagreement with me while we were at the hospital and my husband immediately stopped him.

    After we returned home I called for health updates and initially all appeared well and my daughter called me on Mother’s Day and told me that she loved me. I was shocked to get a letter from her in less than a week calling me horrible names and telling me that she would never trust me with her baby! That I had been the worst mother imaginable. Needless to say I was heartbroken. During this time my SIL referred to himself as the “peacemaker” in the family.

    I did write asking for an explanation, made unanswered phone calls to her asking for health updates on my granddaughter and sent gifts which were not acknowledged. I finally wrote demanding information on my granddaughter and received a response that if I ever sought grandparent rights that they would go to court and prove me unfit! This from my daughter who always had beautiful clothes, good food, a lovely home, riding horses and a college education. I always told her that I loved her and was proud of her.

    My SIL and daughter have cut off all old friendships and do not speak to my son or his wife. When I was hospitalized for serious renal disease my husband called my daughter and all she said was “Yeah. What about my sick baby?”. My son and his wife were wonderfully kind and concerned.

    After this latest event of my contact upon the death of my friend I decided that enough was enough. Trying to maintain a one sided relationship going was futile and not good for my health. I sat down and wrote a goodbye letter to my daughter telling her that I would always remember the loving times that we used to share. I had sent so many cards and gifts with no response and was done. That their lack of concern when I was seriously ill had hurt me terribly.

    A few days ago I got back my letter unopened with a strange rambling letter from my daughter. It was written as if from a twelve year old. Many words were whited out and she wrote that the only person that she listens to and believes is her husband. That he protects her and their daughters from everyone and that she loves him. She wants no drama and signed it ” God bless and take care”. Five pages of a very strange childlike writing but not angry in any way.

    There was also a vile one page letter from her husband stating that I had “begged” him to see my first granddaughter when he called to tell us she was born and ill. That I was crying and pleaded to visit which are fabrications on his part. He asked us to come visit to offer my daughter support. I cried because I was so sad for her and my first grandchild. Also he told me that I was possessed by a demon and a horrible person. That he monitors my daughter’s phone and the mail and she will not answer any calls from me and mail will be returned unopened. My daughter kept referring to items that I had mentioned in my supposedly unopened letter which was returned to me.

    As you can imagine, I was initially furious at this horrible person my daughter married. He has always been disrespectful to me and others. Was always angry with someone. Hated his “old man” and his stepmother Chrissie who he calls “Crusty”. He gets along with no one and controls my daughter now by isolating her from her family and former friends. She has two babies to him. One who will always have health problems. Her options are limited as she quit a very high paying job at his prodding to stay at home.

    I now have no way of contacting my daughter. Her letter to me reminded me of one from a person who has joined a cult or been programmed in some way. Even though it is difficult I have to put this out of my mind as it is affecting my illness in a negative way. I do not think that he would be physically abusive to her but certainly mentally and emotionally. She also wrote that my husband never told her that my illness was serious. I was right next to him in my hospital bed and heard every word just as I heard his call to my SIL concerning my health.

    All I can do now is concentrate on what I am grateful for: my kind and loving husband, my dear kind son and his wife and their sweet baby boy, my friends and my hobbies that give me joy. While I feel sad about my daughter and being denied the joy of loving her two baby girls, I can do nothing to change this. I am working on trying to let go of my anger towards her husband. He truly is the worst person I have ever known.

    1. You are not alone Dartist, I lost my daughter the same way. She tried to commit suicide a week ago. His family is wealthy, extremely controlling, and love their meds. I can only hope she pulls herself out of this she thinks they’re great.

    2. This is what I intend to do to my mum when I get married. Is suspect that you must have shown some favouritism against her in the past. Probably put your son’s needs above hers. Search yourself. My mum does the same to me. Shows clear partiality in dealing with me as against my kid sister. I keep it within. But I’ve resolved that if I ever do get married..which she is waiting for, she will NEVER have access to my kids.

  12. Hi Dartist, thank you for sharing your story. I agree that focusing on our relationships with those who are kind and loving, as it sounds your son and DIL are, is one of the best places to put energy and time. My very best wishes to you as you as you continue on this arduous journey.

    1. Yes, J, it definitely is possible, although not very common. There are folks who don’t have a good intuitive sense about their worth but do acknowledge and value what they contribute with the gifts they’ve been given. Such are the very humble among us who both care enough about themselves not allow themselves to be trampled upon and who care enough about others to labor for the benefit of all. Naturally, the ideal situation is to have both balanced self-esteem and self-respect, but i’ll take the humble and dutiful over the cocky and exploitative any day!

  13. Dear Dr Simon George. I am a research student doing research on the workplace mobbing.I want names of researcher/research work mentioned in the following para of above article
    ” We now know that people hurt others for reasons other than merely defending themselves against perceived threats or the anxiety associated with anticipated injury. ” for my own research work .

  14. Another possible reasons for character-deficient people to harm others?

    *to resist adhering to others’ wishes

    *to gain more ontrol(you know, position)

    *as a ritual

    *It’s too much of a habit, can’t bother changing.

    *to eliminate possible impediments to power or gaining power

    *petty vindictiveness

    *to show loud and clear(or with menacing subtlety) they have status, prestige and position

  15. My sister borrowed my phone and read all of my personal texts between my husband and I. We all worked together for my father. In these texts ( spread over many months ) I complained about missing my hometown. One of the text’s my husband called my sister is a busy body. We worked for my 88 yr. old father and prior to coming to work, several times I asked what kind of mood my father was in. After snooping through my personal texts between my husband and I, my sister took the borrowed phone over to my elderly parents, read and interpreted the texts to them and my father mistook them as my husband and I being ungrateful for the position he created for us and called me on Fathers Day and fired me and my husband. We uprooted our lives, moved from a large city to a tiny town, left my daughter and grandchildren and way of life and he flat out fired us. He didn’t even ask for an explanation from me regarding the texts. By firing my husband and I, my father has cut off all sources of income. I am crushed because I have been the only child that has paid my parents house payments, given my father work trucks when he couldn’t qualify on his own, lent money for beautiful upgrades in their home, and never put a time limit on for repayment. Where did I go wrong? Am I the blame here for expressing my unhappiness or did my sister have malicious intent. Now we are stranded in a horrible town no income and no money to move. Someone please comment. Thank you
    Stranded and sad

  16. Sorry to say but I think some of you lack understanding. And this might be why some men are able to take you for fools. Everything you all say have valid points but there’s still no excuse.. I repeat… NO EXCUSE.. as to why your still sitting there taking the abuse. Life is choice. If you made a choice to change things and leave, then you wouldn’t be on here writing and moaning like your in this imaginary prison. I’ll tell you what a wise person told me. NO ONE CAN DO ANYTHING TO YOU UNLESS YOU ALLOW THEM TO! I can’t stress enough about self love for God’s sake.

    NOTE: THIS COMMENT WAS EDITED BY THE ADMINISTRATOR TO ALTER UNNECESSARILY AND POTENTIALLY OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE.

    COMMENTATOR: PLEASE DO YOUR BEST TO CURB UNNECESSARILY HARSH OR DEMEANING LANGUAGE. THIS BLOG MAINTAINS AN UNCOMMON CHARACTER AMONG THE COMMENTATORS. BEING PASSIONATE IS NOT A PROBLEM BUT THE DISCOURSE MUST MAINTAIN A CIVIL TONE. THANKS!!

    1. Please, Oshun, be careful with your words. Many of us are cognitively dissident because we have tried for so long to work on our relationships with someone who is unwilling to fairly and honestly work with us leaving us confused and thinking that maybe we are the problem and add to this the counsellors who unwittingly play into their mind games and impression management. I agree with your statement that no one can take advantage of you without your permission but sometimes we aren’t even aware till it’s too late and we are sucked in, again. You are also right: if you are being abused the only thing you can do is remove yourself from the situation and don’t go back unless there is evidence that there is a change. Please try not to belittle people with name calling as it doesn’t help anyone and give us some compassion and grace instead.

      NOTE: THIS COMMENT WAS EDITED IN A MINOR WAY BY THE ADMINISTRATOR TO ALTER A REFERENCE TO SOME POTENTIALLY OFFENSIVE LANGUAGE IN A PRIOR COMMENT.

    2. Oshun,

      I’ll tell you what – everyone’s circumstance is different and it is not for you to judge how a person handles him/herself.

      I left the CDN husband TWO YEARS ago, am in the process of divorce, and he is still causing mayhem and discord in my life in a major way, and now doing damage to my daughter who has a young son, who has recently left the home he resides in.

      You may have never experienced a day in the life with a twisted, sick, evil, CDN, and I hope you never do. I don’t believe you have the understanding of how these type of people devote their time and energy to destroying their target.

      Your NO EXCUSE – there are plenty of reason why some people cannot leave. Maybe they are sick, broken down by repetitive abuse, maybe their lives are threatened. There are plenty of reasons why people find themselves in situations with a CDN.

      Moaning? Really? “imaginary prison”?

      This is not a site to tear a person down. It is a site to help one another.

      1. Oshun,

        And “no one can do anything to you unless you allow them to” – do you really think one has power over another as to what they can do to us? You are putting the onus onto the one being abused, not the abuser, to put an end to it. Do you realize some people end up dead? Did they “allow” the person to kill them? If one could control another person’s actions, wouldn’t it be a beautiful world we could all live in? It’s not possible. I can control myself, and that is all, no one else. I am responsible for my actions, no one else’s.

      2. Why would anyone give Oshun one thought. Its a manipulative maneuver to put responders on the defensive.
        C’mon ignore his/her post!

          1. Right on target , Sydney and Lucy,

            You hit the nail on the head, IGNORE any post by O- Shun him/her.
            These gut retching, twisting, blaming diatribes are a giving tell.

            Heed your gut. O-Shun their kind and be well…….)

        1. I guarantee that this “Oshun” character is and it’s not racial profiling and/or racist, it’s a “FACT,” YES, a “FACT,” is of Indian decent. #SORRYIMNOTSORRY

    3. mirror, mirror on the wall etc……………………….do keep looking by all means it is after all, but a reflection. The Ochun of the Yoruba tradition is the Godess of sweet waters yes? Yemaya is the Godess of salt waters yes? Is it not so that some roads of Yemaya have been rape survivors, while other roads betrayed her sisters out of jealousy and spite.???????

      hmmmmmmmmm

      1. Hmmm interesting eudoxia.. Yes Oshun is of the yoruba tradition and of the yemaya. Oshun ultimately represents love yes? Not just outward love to the world but most importantly inward love to the self yes?? To have self love is the most important thing on this planet. Without it, your just a hollow shell, walking into situations that everyone is debating about on this site, because you believe you can only get love from another. Get comfort from another. To be with another, till it goes bad and dark and you stay there out of a myriad of reasons, that wouldn’t even bubble up in your head because your love for self would mean strong self worth, which leads to strong self respect. You’d know not to stay in that dark situation.

  17. Ok Susan, maybe the word “idiots” could be seen as harsh, but women don’t help themselves at all. Men get such a bad wrap about all this stuff, but it’s women who show the level of standards. This goes all the way back to childhood, when teenage boys see girls around them with guys who treat them terribly. Now when you see girls with guys like this, even as a teenager, boys see that girls ain’t got much love for themselves and if a boy decides to be nice to them, then girls will chuck it back in there face and wanna still be with the guys who are horrible. So boys from a young age decide to treat women horribly because women don’t show much respect for themselves and being nice to them keeps them in the friend zone. Now, I’m passionate about this because my mother was one of these women and it made her very dangerous ( generally women like this are dangerous) because she wouldn’t sort herself out and made her boyfriend bring hell to her and her kids (abused),because of her twisted views on relationship and the same old rubbish about investing so much into it blah blah. Once a man sees you have boundaries then you’ll get respect off him. Even from the bad ones. It’s amazing that women have fought for so much, but achieved so little within themselves. The good strong women get swept up quick, which is a bummer. Funny thing is men like strong women who stand there ground. If a man knows you’ll leave him even if you love him, you’ll get him in line quicker than staying their taking the abuse, because once he sees you’ll take it, the relationship is more or less finished.

  18. Whoa whoa whoa let’s calmed down Lucy. In no way am I hear to upset anybody, but my point is still valid. Lucy you yourself have just said that you was in a relationship with a CDN guy, but you saw the LIGHT and basically didn’t stand for it.. Am I right. So you gathered yourself together with whatever self respect and dignity you had and left him. You did what I just said your suppose to do in those situations. You showed yourself to be a woman, not a girl. Your doing what you can to keep away from the person doing so much harm, so how can you disagree with what I’m saying?? Don’t look at my delivery, try and get my message. As for not having any experience, I have bags of it. I grew up with it my darling. Imagine being a kid and dealing with it, day in, day out and then having to come out of it and re-wire your whole brain to know that sort of behaviour don’t benefit anybody. That’s what I grew up seeing and for a while, ending up doing myself until I realised a certain truth. There’s so many intricacies and insecurities in the relationship with self, let alone with someone else, that you ultimately can never really know why people do what they do or why women stick around. Although my answer is very direct and straight forward for some, The truth is the truth. Like you said you can only control your own actions. And you did! That’s what your supposed to do. The imaginary prisons I said was to mean women who feel there hopeless and can’t leave or get out or change there circumstances. Sorry but you can always change your circumstances. I’ll always believe that even if you disagree. It’s women who give up that keeps them there. I seen this as a kid, watched my mother, which makes her character get coloured, then growing up to have strength yourself and get out, but look back to see your mother still lost. It doesn’t just affect the woman. It affects everybody. Sometimes women don’t see that. Women just need to be stronger and know when to keep there worth in tact that’s all. I don’t mean anything mean by it.

  19. Oshun,

    you’ve explained yourself a little better in your subsequent comments, but starting out your argument with name calling …. says alot about you.

    I disagree with most of what you are saying. People and relationships are not black and white.

    You’ve painted this as a problem of women not exercising their choice, but men are also abused by women, women by women, and men by men. This is *not* a gender issue. It is a problem that also occurs in work, business, and extended family relationships. Manipulators and liars can deceive people who are educated and worldly.

    You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about women rejecting you/men, and such women apparently end up in abusive relationships. I can tell you this cuts both ways. From a female perspective, I notice alot of men in relationships with twisted and abusive women because the men are thinking with their little brain, not their big brain. They want a sexy-looking partner to show off and for in bed. They ignore women with less sex appeal who have good character. Some of these men also like to be sexually dominated so they are attracted to selfish dominating women. It’s their kink. Then they get abused, and then complain about women.

    I do not think your “wise” person is very wise. It is obvious to me that someone who holds power over another person can make them capitulate to their demands. A simple example is a parent over a child. (Did you have choice as a child about the abusive men that your mother brought into the household?) Furthermore, how much choice does the other party have when a manipulator uses deceit and lies? For example, if you trust your partner is being monogamous until you acquire an STD, how much choice did you have?

    Why do people stay in abusive relationships? I think part of the answer is our cultural beliefs. How many movies and TV shows depict the main character getting involved romantically with an abusive manipulator, quickly realizing it, then leaving? It would be a very short program. Most shows depict the “happily-ever-after” scenario, or the woman sticks by her troubled man, who finally sees the error of his ways and apologizes, then they live happily every after. We get conditioned culturally to believe in romantic delusions. We want it all: the perfect spouse, lover, companion, parent, income earner. No wonder so many people are disappointed.

  20. Anne

    That’s the best post I’ve read off anyone here. Your totally bang on. I totally agree with you with the conditioning through television definitely. But people need to have there own brains. I’m afraid The wise person who told me that, TO me, gave me one of the best advice I’ve gotten. People don’t take it on but it’s the truth. Sorry but no one can do anything to you unless you allow them to. Once you see things you don’t like, change it. If he won’t change, then leave. If his actions and words hurts, soothe it by chucking him away. Unfortunately women and men a like don’t love themselves enough and make excuses all day as to why they can’t leave or change something. Whether through loneliness, scared, being perceived by others, failure etc. I’m not saying it’s easy but you have to get the courage at some point. If someone spits in your face and you do nothing, you’ve set the standard. He or she can do it again 10 times afterwards but if on the eleventh you sort him or her out then you’ve eventually dealt with the problem that you should have done the first time it was done and wouldn’t of had to have gone through so much heart ache. Your wrong about my relationships with women. They’ve always been good. Abit off when I was younger but good for the most part. I love women that’s why it’s hard sometimes and baffling when they get walked all over. I was abused as a child so I know what it’s like so why would I inflict that on another. But I do have boundaries. Which is a key stone in any relationship, whether as a partner, work colleague, friend. But people’s lack of boundaries is a good portion as to why manipulative people get away with so much. If you really look at the world, you’ll see that it tries to teach you to not look after your own wellbeing. TO consider someone else’s all the time where you end up exhausted and lost and not knowing who you are. You have to keep your self love in tact.

  21. My husband left me for 5 years with my kids and I followed another woman, he did not call me and even the children, my family was scattered but my friend, he told me about a great man who brought back her husband, and she Introduced me to him, now my husband is now back with the family, if you have a similar situation and you can email him at greatbabaubeji@gmail.com

  22. I’m glad I stumbled upon this website. This, along with many books and psychology articles ,as well as extensive therapy have helped me to understand not only the behavior of my abusive soon to be ex but why I allowed it for as long as I did. I understand that I didn’t know better as this was my first relationship and coming from an abusive background I had no boundaries, self respect or self love. I thought I had it together, I thought I had myself figured out since I cut my biological family out of my life but I realize I didn’t. I didn’t allow his calculated and cold abusive treatment because I liked it, I allowed it because I thought someday it would stop. He wasn’t always bad, so I thought. He would complement me and tell me he loved me obviously when he wanted sex but that is another story. Anyhow my point is that if I had listened to my support system and to myself when I felt this wasn’t going to get better, I would not have allowed it to get worse. But I did, and I feel ashamed of myself, I feel stupid and overall I don’t currently like who I am. Let me elaborate, for the sake of this post on cruelty. In a nutshell… About two and a half years ago I met this thing (I won’t call him a man) who seemed nice and very charming. He appeared to be interested in me and what I like but it turned out he lied. More on that later. Once we got together things just escalated. Chronologically… from projection of his sexual issues, to yelling at me in public in line, calling me a slut for making a harmless sexual comment on facebook that had nothing to do with him, to telling me that he wasn’t really impressed on how I played my instrument of choice and that our first kiss was terrible… Keep in mind I had no experience. Followed by telling me that he knew it would break my little heart if it didn’t work out but he had to be the first one to get it and that he was being selfish about it… My virginity. All this time he was attracted to me, according to him because I had a chary and he decided to pop it. His words. I didn’t expect a fairy tail, but I didn’t expect to get involved with such a cruel monster. My point is he didn’t love me like he said he did. Who cared if our first kiss was terrible or if my perfume smelled like his 13 year old little cousin, he was determined to pop that chary; even if that meant lying about being impressed with my musical abilities which meant so much to me. And then, all my friends set up a birthday party for me and the day he met them all for the first time he got sO smashed and made an ass out of himself, he even shit himself on what was the bed I slept at the time. My friend was nice enough to let him stay over for two nights and he did that shit. My friends were not happy with him, obviously. This all took place within 2 months of our relationship. He apologized, But he was still an asshole, still projecting his Sexual issues and still drinking. I did threaten to leave him when he drank, I didn’t know how to handle sexual issues and alcoholism and it was my first relationship. I didn’t know how to deal with these heavy issues. I just thought I had to work at this relationship and I was committed to him so I had to stick it out but I didn’t know how. Fast forward a few days before our first anniversary I confronted him about his drinking and he said he would rather be separated from me than go to therapy for his drinking. He was even willing to just fly me out to the city where I lived the next day. I couldn’t do it. That traumatic incident was followed by a thoughtless anniversary… I started therapy back in my city, and three months after that incident, when I had finally gained the confidence to break up with him he contacted me a few days later and said he was sorry and my dumb ass still gave him a chance. Here is where it gets horrendous. Keep in mind, abusers know how to honeymoon and we had quite a lot of those fazes. I permanently move in with him 4 months later and we were thinking about marriage, not in the near future but we had picked out a ring and discussed wedding plans. A little over a month after I moved in with him, he got so intoxicated that his body didn’t react well to it and he left a disgusting mess in the bathroom and the bedroom. We had someone staying with us at the time because he needed help. This other guy came back to the house and all hell broke loose. I had tole him that I was going to sleep in the living room because of what was going on in the bedroom and I didn’t want to sleep there. He went batshit crazy, saying that I wanted to sleep with this guy on the couch, calling him the N word and a charity case, saying that he loved alcohol more than me and just acting childish and stupid. He was drunk, but still. This other guy choked him when he called him the N word repeatedly and it just got out of hand. This other guy apologized to him for getting violent, I pack my stuff and told him I would return to talk to him. I was planning on staying with this guy and his girlfriend for 6 months so we could go to couples counseling and he could sober up. Also I didn’t want to be in that mess and I didn’t feel safe with his behavior. I then come to see him about 2 days later, only to tell me to give him back the key, to get out, to leave and to stay gone because I left with the guy that had choked him. He said that he didn’t care where my home would be, I could no longer be here. I could start seeing other people and that I should grow up and stop running away from my problems and that he had no patience to teach me about relationships. What the hell, I was so shocked. Especially with his choice of words, he knew how important HOME was for me and he used it to hurt me. So I asked him, what would you have done if I hadn’t come back to see you? He said: “I would’ve sent you a text telling you we were done.” Followed by saying that he was going to send me $1000 because he didn’t want that N to fly me back home and that he had canceled the ring and there was nothing I could do to fix it. I told him I didn’t want his money. I tried explaining myself and talking to him but I got shut down. He wasn’t drunk either. I couldn’t take anymore of it so I gave him the key and left. I figured he would break up with me but not this. I felt like a walking vagina, I felt worthless and like garbage. I was getting ready to change my number, get out of the lease when I hear from him four days later telling me that he had way overreacted to me and that he wanted me to return. I I wanted all my bad feelings to go away, I wanted to feel loved and like I really meant something so I stupidly returned, only for him to tell me, after rolling off of me, that he had messaged another woman a day before he broke up with me and told her she was gorgeous and he wanted to pursue her and asked her if her condition affected orgasms. It didn’t sink in until much later… we went to two counseling sessions, he reordered the ring and he didn’t drink for about 2 months. Well, nine months later, several relapses and an unimpressive proposal I am leaving in two weeks. I’ve been planning on doing so for a few months, and I”m counting down. I can’t wait to truly start healing from this nightmare. I want my old self before I met him back, I want to feel good about myself again and regain my self-esteem. I am hoping to pick up my instrument and feel beautiful and confident again. I know it will take a lot of pain and work to get to where I want to be with myself. My hope in sharing this is that there is hope for happiness and peace. Whenever you have that “fuck this” moment, I hope you react to it right away and it doesn’t take you longer than it should to remove yourself from a toxic situation. It takes a lot of self-awareness to work on yourself and retrain your brain as to what’s right and what’s wrong. If you remember incidents like I remember the ones mentioned above and you still cry when reliving them, Always tell yourself “that’s not love.” Abuse is not love. Cold and calculating acts of cruelty and excusing them with being drunk or angry is not love. Name calling is not love. Being demeaning is not love. We all know that physical abuse is not love, but emotional abuse is also not love. I wish for any of you in a similar situation a safe and healthy recovery and to finally get to where you want to be with yourself. I will get there, and I hope you do too.

    1. Mils I’m glad you stumbled onto this website too. We don’t stumble onto this website unless we have been through the wringer with the CD. We here understand none to well what you have been through. You sound very young and I’m sorry this has happened to you so young in life, it’s a terrible blow. However, in saying that it is now behind you and you are still young, young enough to allow this experience to become a teacher. You are not alone. This happens to many, many people. Yours is not an isolated event. Far from it. Many of us on this site, have had our entire families turned against us either by a CD family member or toxic friend or partner.

      What would be of huge benefit to you now is your healing journey. These relationships not only open old wounds but inflict new wounds that must be addressed. This is very important to do so. There is much information available today in order to accept what has happened and allow you to understand that this did not happen to you or any of us because we are bad and it is in fact the exact opposite. The CD come after us specifically because we have something they don’t. It is called empathy, the CD is addicted to what is known as narcissistic supply. They extract this from us via emotional manipulation.

      What is important for you now to do is heal and understand exactly what your ex is all about. This is important Mils – THERE WILL BE OTHERS. CD see empaths as prime targets. At the moment due to the hurt and pain he has inflicted you will be very vulnerable. At this stage of the game TRUST NO ONE. The reason I say this is because it’s critical and it happened to me. Because you have made a get away from this man – BE CAREFUL he is likely to come after you. Mils it is very, very important to understand they are not normal human beings. They do not understand nor relate to the world like normal humans do. They see everything as a potential source of supply and nothing more. You can’t form friendships or any other type of relationships with these people, well you can, but you best not do so because it always leads to grief and betrayal. You can count of those.

      When we are vulnerable from a particularly nasty attack and predation by CD and we meet somebody enchanting it’s easy for our rose colored glasses to go on. Our brains start to manufacture large quantities of oxytocin – in a nutshell it’s a sort of love hormone. It is easy to allow ourselves to get swept off our feet in other words to fall in love with love. Be careful here. Watch all new comers. Look for signs of their disturbance.

      Knowledge is everything at this point. There is a good core group of people on this site who regularly comment and post here. They are the best form of recovery available today, believe me on that one. Read all the articles on this blog and if you are in a financial position to do so purchase Dr Simon’s books about Character Disturbance, there are quite a few available. It’s imperative to understand the nature of the beast. Keep posting here you will find it to be not only of great comfort and support but medicinal as well.

      There are many people giving extaordinary advice at present to those in recovery and beyond. I would strongly encourage you to google and listen to the following people:
      Meredith Miller – Inner Integration
      Lisa A Romano – Breakthrough Life Coach
      Jenna Ryan – Self Love You
      Richard Grannon – Spartan Life Coach

      Get into the dark minds of the following self confessed malignant narcissists who are now talking about their condition and giving us a wealth of insight into their devious minds. Varknin is a malignant narc and claims to be a fully fledged psychopath. Tudor is a Narcissistic Sociopath. These guys are hard core but are providing a valuable service.

      Sam Varknin – Malignant Self Love, Narcissism Revisited
      HD Tudor – Knowing the Narcissist

      Keep playing your musical instrument, there is something else you should do aside from knowing the narcissist. Know yourself. Understand your own vulnerabilities and blind spots that allow maniupulators to get under your skin. Do not underestimate this important task, it is perhaps the most important one. Buy a book called Emotional Alchemy by Tara Bennett Goleman. Keep posting it will strengthen and provide you with a quality support group.

      Stay strong, the battle has just begun because a lot of stuff will come up for you during the healing phase and it’s important to allow it to unfold. A support group is critical and a group who know exactly what you have been through and there is one right here. If you talk to anybody who has not been through this or who do not understand what narcissistic abuse is you may subject yourself to further wounding by ignorant people. You don’t need this. Start listening to the above people you will be amazed. It will speed up the process for you or rather allow you to understand a lot sooner than what we ordinarily would.

      Bright blessings!

    2. Mils
      You will get where you need to be. Sounds like you have a full understanding of what abuse is, and it isn’t love
      Most of us here have been fooled and played and toyed with and are coming out of it with a new hope and new life.
      Keep reading and posting. We are listening and we understand.

  23. I appreciate your eloquent and thoughtful response. I meant to finish my post by saying that educating myself about these type of people has been of great help to me. I agree with you that these painful occurrences inflict new wounds that must be addressed. I will continue going to therapy after I leave him. I will definitely check out your suggestions, I love getting my hands on new learning material. I’m sorry you experienced something similar. I am hoping you are getting to a better place as you continue to recover. Keep on posting.

  24. I had to prove myself as recently I was called insane by a CD individual. This person lead me to believe a lie and like most I wanted to get out. I’ve been fighting back with every bit of the strength I have; you see this person is not the first to abuse me. I have a lifetime of experience covering EVERY aspect of the ideas of abuse. I just decided not to be there punching bag any more. They want to make my life a living hell, I can either let them or strengthen myself to stand up against it, I make my choices to leave the most violent ones behind never to put myself in harm’s danger again from their hands. I have left my family of origin, my first in-laws, churches/congratulations, supposed friends, and even ministers who joined in the enabling of the perpetraters of the violence. My current in-laws don’t even associated with me and since some members deaths have even abandoned their own who is as I am now learning to stand up for himself and learn to take responsibility for our own actions despite our conditioning of others who are CD. As is stated we all are capable of doing this to others but we don’t have to be door mat. I appreciate all of your ideas, experiences and encourage all of you to find strength to protect your selves and those who are depending upon your protection as well ( children) no one asks for abuse or deserves to receive it, it is wrong and comes even in the form of not allowing a child to use a bathroom that’s potty training because they think they have power. G-d gives and takes away in his time unfortunately not ours. My prayers are with you all.

  25. How does one battle this? How to be better, I feel that I can’t be around people I love because of this, because I end up lashing out or being angry. Is there a remedy or do people who have this, just have to live with it and control it? Is there a way to rebuild thinking and not think this way? I feel that now everything has flipped and I don’t even know where I stand. I want to treat my parents with gentleness, but I just don’t feel it, and it’s not something specific they did, or maybe it is, but they were always good to me and always loved me, they were some of the best parents out there probably. but now I am toxic, and I am afraid of it, I don’t want to be. I want to be this nice sweet person who loves the world and people in it and is gentle to all living things and has heart full of love, no matter what. I feel that something in me is twisted now. And the man I loved only confirmed it, he told me that too, I thought love would bring me to light, but in the end, after his infidelity in college and my inability to get past it and start a new life with him, I was so angry, so angry, all the time, I loved him and was angry and sad and upset, and hated the world, it all was a nightmare, but I wanted to get through it, and end up with him in the end. it all just fell apart and I completely shattered and became even worse than before I loved him. Now I don’t want to hurt anyone, but sometimes I lash out at my parents, especially my father, and I don’t feel a shred a sympathy, I know he loves me, and I don’t know if I feel anything. I want to. I think I want to, I wonder what is it like to not do it, and have good feelings inside. But something is always in the way with him. I feel that he doesn’t understand me. He does not see me for who I am. That hurts me, that makes me want to scream and pull away, and be mean. And it’s childish. I am not a child. What do I do? How do I battle this? Will I always feel and think this way and just have to learn to control it? Is it possible to truly change?

    1. Ann,
      Yes. One can truly change in fundamental ways.
      You probably need to sort few things out, and get better understanding of your surrounding environment and your thoughts. I will suggest that you setup some counseling sessions with a good counselor or psychologists. It will help to share details with and to get inputs from a neutral knowledgeable person.

  26. Hi Ann,

    Yes, it’s possible to change. You jad a terrible time, you shattered and then, I am assuming, pulled it together, after a fashion. And again, I am guessing, when you pulled it together you suppressed your emotions, which is part of that process. When anger is suppressed all the other emotions seem to tag along.

    What can build under the surface is hatred. Again, that is normal. And it can be dealt with if the underlying disappointment, sadness and anger is allowed to surface.

    I confronted my mother, over a decade ago, or just had a conversation with her, where I told her I wanted to discuss my anger that would surface at odd times and at the most inappropriate moments. So we went over past events and I told her how it felt to be beaten by my father, as a child and how I didn’t feel protected, etc…

    But you say your father doesn’t see you as an individual in pain. No matter what you are, what trials and tribulations you have been through, he has a static view of you?

    This can make you feel like a cardboard facade that reinforces the pain you feel from suppressing your emotions, or being unreal, frozen in a static state in order to protect yourself.

    Is he unintentionally reinforcing all that you feel you have lost, emotionally?

    These are all guesses on my part, based a bit on some of my experiences. Tell me, are you able to fully express your sorrow?

    I extend the warmest regards and best wishes to you. You are exceptionally honest and a wonderful person. Really.

    1. Ann,

      AndyD and LisaO gave you good information and direction. The biggest part of change is the battle to accept responsibility and be able to admit you have a problem and would like to change. Yes, it is always possible to change, the biggest hurdle is to admit and take ownership, which you have done son this forum. It is all up to you and I think you will garner a lot of support from your family.

      I have attached a link for Counseling Resources a site Dr. Simon also writes for with an article you may want to read. You will find further information about another sister site and a space where you can submit a question.

      I believe Dr. Simon still does limited consultations and I encourage you to contact him for further information. I would also encourage you to keep posting if you so choose to. It warms my heart to know you have the courage to see the negatives within you, admit it and want to make a decision to change for the better. This gives me hope for the ones I love.

      Thank you, for your post and I hope you will join in on our present topic and feel free to ask any questions. I am thinking you are young, many times as we grow and experience life’s many challenges, sadness, hard knocks and burdens we grow in acceptance of what life presents to us. In turn we can gain insight into our own inner world where we may be lacking maturity, wisdom and the everyday niceties that bring happiness not only to us but to the ones whose lives we come in contact with..

      Many times it is a tragedy or loss of someone we love that brings us to our knees and humbles us. In this process many times we are forever changed and hopefully, it is taken as an opportunity to grow and make this a better world. From what you are expressing if I were you I would take advantage of this window of opportunity to change your life around for the better before it may take a tragedy for you to do the difficult work to change..

      Yes, with work and understanding you can and will be able to feel again and enjoy true happiness.

      Hugs to you dear one, stay on the path to taking back your life.

      1. Ann,

        I apologize I forgot the link. I hope this is of help to you. Also, Dr. Simon has written some good books you may want to read. All 4 of them very good, I would suggest the last one Dr. Simon wrote: How Did we End up Here. I would also encourage you to read the archives of this blog and feel free to ask questions.

        Dr. Simon is known throughout the world for his work in this area of over 30 years compared to a lot of people who post experience in the field on the internet. More than anything I would like to see you heal and by doing that it is important to find a qualified and caring therapist like AndyD recommended.

        https://counsellingresource.com/features/2008/10/09/role-of-feelings/comment-page-1/

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  28. I’m not really sure if this is the same thing but my ex boyfriend hurts people emotionally and he knows he did wrong but let’s it go and moves on. He cant express himself. Once he told me he enjoys Lieing and messing with peoples feelings.

    1. Miranda,
      I’m glad to hear that he’s your x-boyfriend, that you recognized this and distanced yourself from his abuse.

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