Beyond Mere Narcissism: The Aggressive Personalities

Narcissism has come to be recognized as a dimension of personality (see also: Personality and Character Disorders – The Narcissistic Dimension and Narcissism’s Sometimes Strange Allure).  It is also a cardinal feature of several other personality and character disturbances. But there’s a class of personality types I haven’t talked about in a while whose character pathology goes far beyond narcissism.  Such are the personality types I refer to in my books Character Disturbance, In Sheep’s Clothing, and The Judas Syndrome as the “aggressive personalities,” perhaps the most character-impaired of all the personality types.

The disregard some narcissists have for others is a rather passive disregard in that they don’t actively seek to victimize so much but rather are simply so self-centered that they don’t particularly think enough or care enough about the impact of their behavior on others.  So whereas they might well do something that victimizes, they might not necessarily necessarily intend to victimize. Now some of you who have been victimized by narcissistic individuals might take issue with this notion because there are plenty of narcissists (e.g., narcissists of the more “malignant variety”) who in their sense of entitlement exploit, prey upon and otherwise abuse others.  But that’s precisely because such folks are more than just narcissitic.  And that’s one of the reasons why (in addition to the fact that “mere” narcissism is a relative rarity) the legitimacy of a classification like Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) has been called into question in recent years. Make no mistake, however, the aggressive personalities are narcissists through and through. But they’re far more than simply egocentric, vain, grandiose, etc.  It’s not so much that they simply don’t care about you.  Rather, they fully intend to exploit or get the better of you, and that’s why they’ve always belonged in a different category.  As those familiar with my work may already know, I believe there are 5 common varieties of these types and I think it’s worth looking at how narcissism expresses itself in each of the major aggressive personality subtypes (for more information on the various aggressive personality subtypes see pp. 96-129 in Character Disturbance, pp. 40-47 in In Sheep’s Clothing and the articles Aggressive Personalities: Part 1 and Aggressive Personalities: The Sub-types).

The folks I refer to as “unbridled aggressive” personalities are those who’ve been traditionally thought of as dissocial or antisocial (sometimes also referred to as “sociopathic”).  These are the folks who are at odds with the major norms of society (the word “anti-social” literally means “against society” or against the social order – not as some mistakenly believe as referring to shy or socially-avoidant people) and who frequently find themselves in trouble with the law.  In their narcissism, they feel perfectly entitled to break the rules.  But whereas the pure narcissist recognizes no higher power, these personalities are aware of but simply refuse to respect the higher powers in their lives.  In fact, they pit themselves solidly against anyone or anything that would dare hold power over them or tell  them what to do.  They afford no one authority over them.  Where the pure narcissist already feels superior, these folks actively seek to be on top and in control.  They will set the rules, period!  Such folks are indeed narcissists to the core.  But they’re far more pathological than that.  They abhor submission in any form or degree.  And as I mention in my books, that abhorence is the single biggest reason they have trouble forming a healthy conscience (for more on this see the article: Conscience Development in the Aggressive Character). They simply will not subordinate their will to another’s, and for that reason many times they simply have to be segregated from the rest of society and confined so that the rest of us can be safe.

The “channeled-aggressive” folks I talk about in my books are quite prevalent these days. But unlike their “unbridled” counterparts these folks are rarely in such open, obvious conflict with the major rules that they find themselves in trouble or behind bars a lot.  That doesn’t mean they have respect for the rules or willingly surrender themselves to them for the greater good.  As narcissistic as they are, they still consider themselve “above” the rules, but they generally conform their conduct enough to stay out of open conflict with authorities.  And they do so for practical reasons – they don’t want their freedom curtailed. You find them in business, professional sports, various other competitive enterprises, the military, police force, and all sorts of occupational endearvors where tough mindedness is rewarded and a minimal level of self-imposed restraint is tolerated.  The fact that such folks actually see themselves as above the rules and restrain themselves only for practical purposes is born out by how readily they trample proper limits and boundaries when they think they can get away with it.  And the fact that we see so many folks in professional sports, business, law enforcement, etc. actually getting in trouble for major social norm violations is a testament to how tenuous the self-retraint these personalities typically impose on themselves is.

I’ll have more to say about the aggressive personalities and their inherent narcissism in a couple of weeks.  Next week’s post will be a special Christmas post.

Character Matters will again by a live program this Sunday evening at 7 pm EST (6 pm CST) so I can take your phone calls.

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95 thoughts on “Beyond Mere Narcissism: The Aggressive Personalities

  1. It’s not primarily what they are 100% for, like the pure narcissist but who or more to the point what they are 100% against. They are against ever submitting to anybody ever. Very interesting description of the anti-social sociopath as opposed to the narcissist.

    1. The ones I have encountered have trouble saying please or thank you. The I am sorry is almost non-exsitant in their vocabulary. If they do use these terms it is to patronize and get their way. The words if used are completely hollow and do not resonate an iota of sincerity with the channeled and unbridled aggressive’s I know.

      I will tell you one thing about these individuals that does drain me, but not to the extent of dry as it did before I became educated to their way of thinking. The CD do not respect weakness, mind you, they interpret kindness as a weakness. If any sign of weakness and how they perceive weakness is shown it is a green light for attack. They respect strength, therefore, there is No Negotiating with Terrorists and a terrorist they are.

      1. “with the channeled and unbridled aggressive’s I know”

        You know those kinds of people, too? That’s got to be unpleasant. I speak in understatements here. A different breed of nasty than psychopaths or slick covert manipulators, but a huge grief nonetheless.

        1. Timothy,
          Another thing they get off seeing the other suffer, be it from the sideline or a planned direct hit on you. I believe Marianne described it very well in a prior topic. Believe me the predator thinking is Pay Back Pal. And never underestimate, time is on their side. The wound does not heal, it festers, and the diseased mind never forgets it it plots and plans for an opening to attack. The more time that passes before they strike lessens the thought in many peoples minds it may have been them.

          I try to remember they think the opposite of what we do and way beyond that. Their thoughts can be so heinous and unpredictable, I try never to underestimate these people. Then the challenging act comes into play, learning to react and live with not reacting to the fear driven darts they throw. I have learned to never underestimate the hate these people (demons) carry inside them. And yes, they are and it is evil they spew forth. We all know what devils and demons are, whether you believe in them or not they sure fit the definitions to a T.

          We want to live in peace and care for our fellow man and forget the ignorance of political tug of war and using us as pawns. Politicians are the epitome of Wolfs in Sheep’s Clothing pushing and pulling us left and right, keeping us off balance with inner disagreements and fighting. How convenient to have all these CD people at their fingertips , pawns, to cause all this chaos and desolation and despair so they can fulfill their self serving agendas regardless of all the human life that is lost.

          I am glad we are ONE here.

          Blessings to all and goodwill

      2. BTOV,

        I find it fascinating that you mention that the malignant ones never say please or thank you or I’m Sorry!

        My ex and I were putting some documents for his green card and he asked me to get his passport. I asked him to tell me the magic word (please)…he jumped up from his chair and threw me against a wall with his hand around my neck. Just like that. I never saw it coming nor had I ever seen that kind of behavior before we married. Then he acted like nothing had happened. I was terrified. No drugs, no booze, nothing. A quiet project being done between a man and a woman and BAM…a major violent reaction to the word “please.”

        I get what you are saying. Really.

        Theresa Maria

        1. Theresa, they think that ‘please’ is for the lesser types. They themselves get to command, not ask for favors. Your CD’s reaction is extreme, but the refusal to politely ask for what is wanted is mindnumbingly common with all of them. I have also been scoffed at contemptuously because I used polite request language toward them! Yeah, one of the tells. Coupled with utter unwillingness to apologize. These people are not civilized, you know? Even a small child can master these…

          1. Why do these types even choose to marry? They don’t like any aspect of a marital relationship. Do they stay in the mArriage because they enjoy abusing? You’d think these types would be “happier” living life alone

        2. That is my life . Exavtly. I now know not to try bc he finally tell me the truth . he not love me . And never did 36 years married. I am devastated end feel so betrayed. And I can not get thru to anyone. I can not believe these people , my mom my kids , but

          And no one see thus. I never see it . Now I see it every second. I don’t think anyone can wrap their head around this, now I knew it was some thing like almost going to getbgood. Almost be OK where we want to be. And containing it is what I called it, like I doing everyone a favor to not unleash it on others esp. My adult children, perhaps to hard or much

  2. BTOV

    “The wound does not heal, it festers, and the diseased mind never forgets it it plots and plans for an opening to attack. The more time that passes before they strike lessens the thought in many peoples minds it may have been them.”
    That is a disturbing thought for me being I’m still in divorce proceedings with the STBX. Him being a disbarred attorney, he’s always plotting and planning to bring me down. He’s never going to stop. Thanks to this blog and Dr. Simon’s article and gained much strength and wisdom in dealing with this crazy mean-spirited man. I wish I could be done with him – but this divorce is wicked. He’s meaner and angrier than ever.

      1. BTOV,

        No. I moved out almost a year ago. After telling him I was divorcing him, I stayed five more months, firstly, to try to negotiate a settlement between us, only to find out these settlement negotiations were full of deception, and I did not yet know the full story of the secret life he’d been leading. Secondly, there was a strong possibility he’d harm himself (suicide). But when he got a job and got back on his feet, I left the marital home. I wish now I’d have kicked him when he was down. That’s what he would have done to me.
        One thing I read about people like him, is that they have to win, and if they lose, he may make me lose along with him (murder/suicide). The man will do anything to win. And I’m fighting him. He’s not going to get half of everything I’ve worked for since 1980’s without a fight. He spent over a millions dollars in savings the past six years. He is the aggressive personality type which is discussed in this week’s post by Dr. Simon.

      1. I’m as close to no contact as I can get. My first real estate agent quit on me because of his bullying and the stress he caused her over the sale of the house ( which has not yet sold.) The divorce is a legal nightmare. I work in the court system, and the courthouse, and I’ve yet to see one as nasty as my own divorce.
        I realize how unhealthy it is for me to have any communication with him. He knows how to “get me goat”. He uses every tactic possible to emotionally harm me.
        When this divorce finalizes, which I don’t envision for a least another year, I will go no contact, ever, again with him. He is not worthy of a single minute of my time.

    1. BTOV,

      I know that is seems that the divorce will never end but it will. He is disbarred so he has a lot less power than if he could practice. I was in the legal field as a litigation paralegal and a disbarred attorney is looked on as scum to those that have not been disbarred. Very competition oriented. Attorneys hate each other and there is a true pecking order. Most would not even associated with a disbarred attorney. Not because they think he is so terrible…oh no! It is more than likely they do not wish to associate with someone that as the saying goes “shit sticks.” I have seen so many attorneys turn their backs on their “brothers” if any whiff of scandal could stick to them. It truly is a cut throat business and one that many leave since it has nothing to do with justice. It has all to do with winning. I even know of an attorney that quit his practice and became a plumber!

      So don’t give your STBX more power and control by believing what he says that he can do. It is all a mind fuck as my attorney kept telling me when in the midst of my ex’s statements and jabs. He knows you, he is smart (also dumb to get disbarred), but he is still smart and you are his target. So move the fucking target. Make it harder for him to land a punch! You zig when he tries to zag you. Remember…this is all about winning and money now. Every time he hits your target he is making you more tired and mentally upset. Both are set up to weaken your offense. Find a way to not let him hit your target!!!!! Or you will end of losing.

      Just remember one thing every time he comes at you. Say to yourself…Self…this fucker is trying to fuck with my head and if I let him he is GOING TO WIN! AND I AM NOT GOING TO LET HIM!

      Got it. Good. Now, stand in front of the bathroom mirror and say it when you wake up, say it during the day, and say it into the mirror before you go to bed at night. Beat a pillow too. Helps. It really does.

      Oh, my ex calls me every week wanting to see the dog. But I know him. Life did not turn out the way he thought. Still unemployed and lonely. Do I feel sorry for him. I used to, not anymore. He did it to himself and this post of Dr. Simon’s is so right on. The ex..as he told me one time. “I want to be the boss” Says it all.

      Theresa Maria

      1. After all the reading I’ve done and the support I’m getting from this blog, I do feel more powerful and can handle the stress he throws my way much easier. Yes, I am his target, as you say. I’m his 100% focus. He wants my pension and half of what I’ve saved in deferred comp because that is all that’s left, because they are in my name alone. Boy, and when he sets his mind to something, I’ve always said he’s like a pit bull that won’t let go. Moving target – I’ll have to figure out how to do that. He’s scared – documents will come forward which show his use of prostitutes to the extent that it actually appears to me that he was not only a user, but a pimp. I swear, this stuff is not made up. It’s so out there . . . . .one day he had 7 hotel rooms books all over the metro area, different locations. Several times there were 2, 3, 4, 5 hotel room booked.
        So – I’m the enemy. I lived my life like an ordinary person, raised kids, worked full time, and this crazy jerk is living crazy and now attacking me and my character is court documents.
        You are so right, a disbarred attorney is tainted. He feel completely apart when it hit the newspaper. He wasn’t upset at what he’d actually done, he was upset the whole community found out.
        I’m a strong woman. I have lots of friends and emotional support, and a kind, gentle affectionate boyfriend. But, yes, it’s a struggle all right.

        1. Dear One,

          As my attorney said to me, this is a no fault state, when I admitted to him that I had been in therapy, deep therapy for the dysfunction in my family.

          I said I was deeply concerned that what I had told him of what had happened to me as a child by both my mother and father he would try to use it against me to say…I was mentally ill and he had to have put up with so much that I should not get the minimum of half.

          My attorney, when I admitted such said as much I could remember…”You could have been doing it to the pool boy (cabana boy) and it will not mean any thing” You get half unless you try to go for more…which…since I am older, gray hair divorce, no children from the marriage and I divorced him before the 10 year cut off date of what is considered a long term marriage. What a joke. But I digress. I will get nothing more.

          He even had his attorney show him in the law books that I actually get a minimum of half. He did not believe his own lawyer…But that is what I got. He always said if I ever left he would leave me penniless. Well, it was more like, leave me and I will make sure you starve.

          Had a nice London Broil tonight. A bit tough, but I only marinated it for a couple of hours and this can be a very good meat but it is tough.

          Yesterday I had a Lamb Shank with red potatoes, organic carrots, celery, heated for over three hours. Yumm!

          And my capital gains came in. Just might start putting some aside for next summer. Paris, London, Italy. All by my self.

          So he must hate you dearly, dear. He wants the money since he has none now and has no forseeable career. Never ever forget that.

          This is war. Quite amazing when you think about it. All those years, children, house, etc etc etc. It means nothing now. Sure, you will have your memories and I am glad of that. You will have something to look back on when you are my age or older. And it will be good. But for the time being it is either you or he. Which do you choose?

          And sorry to say, since you were married for such a long time he probably has privileges to you pension. That being said, you have privileges to what he can make in the future. Just because he is disbarred does not mean he can.t get a job and disbarment can be overturned if he keeps his nose very very clean.

          Love Love and Merry Christmas

          Theresa Maria

          1. The aspect of his bad deeds comes onto play on my dissipation of marital assets claim, the money spent on hotels and prostitutes. And also the gambling. It all sounds so cliche. Yes he will probably get a large share of my pension bit I am hoping to offset it as much as I can by proving what his recklessness cost money wise. Yes he hates me. Somehow I’m the enemy. He’s angry as can be. His crazy mind faults me, I guess. You know what he actually said to me at a counseling session? This is before I found out about the prostitutes – believing he had a “girlfriend who meant nothing to him but sexy is what he said “. He says “you should look at yourself and figure out why your husband needed a girlfriend.” What a jerk. Yep, I’ve already lost a lot of money and will lose more. But I will fight the jerk to keep as much as I can. He has no idea how strong and angry I am. He has met his match

          2. And it sounds like you are doing fine without him. Eating well. You must be a good cook. Why do they want to see us suffer for their mistakes? I will never be emotionally bullied again. Ever. And just as an aside, I’ve been taking self defense classes. You just never know how far a person will go with their anger

          1. Linda,

            In many of these situations and remember all CDN present differently, but in the scenario of the marriage, the certificate means ownership to them, somewhat like the papers you get for a dog. This is when the real objectification comes into play.

            Linda, are you in a community property state and how many years were you married? You can also request if he is being difficult to have all communication between the two of you to be done via email only.

          2. Linda,

            Self Defense classes are a good thing. To my mind, it is not the physical part so much as the mental part. To control your fear and act without fear. As I have seen, and many say, never get angry to where you cannot control yourself. Your actions should be of stealth and patience. One that can wait for the right moment (and you will know the moment if you keep your wits about you) is priceless.

            Case in point. I wanted the dog in the settlement. He kept guilting me about taking the dog. But I knew that if I kept going after the money in the mediation (mandatory in my state) he would keep saying no. He really likes to say no. So I did not bring up the dog until the end…by that time he was so into saying no and showing off to the mediator and the attorneys that he could and would say no he said he did not want his own dog. So I got the dog. My attorney went back to the office and walked in screaming…She got the fucking dog! Everybody hooted and hollered. It was kinda like getting the kids. And my side knew I wanted that dog.

            My attorney just did not understand the ex’s agenda. No one really does until they are up against it with these people. My attorney thought the ex would put up a big fight for the dog…but nope. The ex’s power trip was such that he gave away the one thing he loved…his dog…so he could look like he was the big man.

            Now he calls once a week to see the dog. Last time he called and I picked up I knew what I was going to say when he demanded to see HIS dog. I told him, no, and he said WHY! I said because you are a deadbeat doggy daddy. I hung up the phone. Oh, he will be back. Nothing turned out like he thought. Still doing temp jobs, no friends, alone, no dog. He doesn’t want me, but he wants to continue to fight with me.

            Remember that. In the past I would fight with him. It was the only relationship he would have with me. But not now. It takes two and I have nothing to fight with him about. Its over but he doesn’t understand that. And I mean REALLY over. Nothing and I mean nothing (but even now I know he will need a cornea transplant and he will be coming to me to care for him) will make me go back.

            And I hope to God that I can keep that promise to myself…I really am a kind person and he knows how to get attention from me using my kindness against me.

            Theresa Maria

          3. Linda,

            Many many a woman has caved because of the undue stress of fighting in a divorce battle and the attorney fees are part of that fight.

            It sucks I know. Your ex, if he can’t get what he thinks is coming to him then he is going to try to bury you with attorney fees. This is one of the most tried and true tactics for both sides. I hate to say it but attorneys love to rack up the fees…it feeds their BMW payments. And the more you both fight, the richer the attorneys get. So, be very mindful as to just what you are getting from your attorney and is it worth it. It may be. I do not know the facts. Just remember, this is a cost benefit situation.

            I could have litigated my ex for more. But I would have had to keep going back to court to get him to even pay. Since he did not have a steady job I would have been running all over the country to the different temp jobs to try to get any future earnings (recall he is a doctor that makes $1000 a day when he gets work). It was not worth it. Even if I did win. Winning is great…but there has to be something that hangs on that winning. So what, the court says he is supposed to give you such and such going forward. He doesn’t pay your only recourse is to take him back to court and this will go on FOREVER. So I say, take the money and run. Run like hell. And cut your losses. Just think about that scenario. Fighting can get to be a habit…especially when your attorney is billing you for every phone call you make to him/her.

            I recall an attorney in our office laughing about his client that called him almost everyday to bitch about the STBX. The attorney said…I just sit there with the speaker phone on, do work on one of my other cases and every once in a while I just say, yes, um um, OK or whatever…and he double bills. Client on the phone, other client that he is working on a brief.

            Sad but true…in divorce…happens all the time.

            In the beginning I racked up about $1000 doing the same thing, but by e mail. When I got my first monthly statement I saw how much I had spent just running off emails to my attorney. I stopped that big time. I should have known better being in the field and billing myself too. But, oh well, divorce makes one crazy and I fully admit to being crazy for awhile.

            Theresa Maria

            Theresa Maria

          4. Linda,

            Do you have a good therapist? Limit all your time as much as possible. Not knowing the process and what comes next can be very stressful.. Make sure you ask for a itemized bill every month. Many things the lawyer may tell you are unnecessary. Most lawyers are pond scum and when they smell a drop of blood circle. They profit from the misery of others the more pain and suffering the more they lick there lips and if they can help in causing more distress they will. They love a good fight.

            I don’t doubt most lawyers are big on the scale of Character Disordered Narcissism with many of the other sick attributes in tow.

            My CDN caused so many upsets, knowing what I know today I would not had reacted the tactics used to cause me grief. The CDN stated I am going to make sure you end up with nothing. Linda keep posting on this site and when you have things come up throw it out here for input or just a place to vent instead of the attorney. I wish I had done that.

            Hang in there, we are all in your corner. I put my faith in God and he has given me strength to persevere way beyond what the sick CDN thought they could do to me. I didn’t carry any vindictiveness, or anger, a lot of frustration but I never allowed myself to stoop to his level. I pity him, what a wasted fool, an ignorant buffoon and others see him for what he is. I would look at him when he was (thought) in all his glory and see nothing but a naked man acting like a two year old. Really a pathetic, ridiculous site to behold.

            Maintain your dignity, hold your head up high. Turn all those old buttons off. Now watch him squirm. They can’t stand it when they can’t make you react. Don’t ever forget, its so screwed up, its all about control.

            In the end we are all accountable, I wouldn’t in a million years want to own his stuff. Just watch as he self destructs, the CD will bring enough misery and embarrassment on himself without you lifting a finger. I am not saying to give him any leeway. Hold him accountable in everything unless its gets to be silly stuff. Just say “Oh Well” throw it to the side and go on. Weigh things very carefully. They respect strength and when you don’t react in any of the old ways it will unbalance them. In essence “Don’t feed into any of the drama.” This is their stage and they don’t want the curtain to go down.

            Blessings

  3. For BTOV specifically,

    One thing you said was left hanging. I’d appreciate you commenting further.

    See, if you remember, I asked Suzi if she could say whether the article on abuse I linked to was accurate. It’s this, btw, if you wonder what article it is.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Abuse

    You said you’d Googled the site(Tv Tropes) and I should, too. That’s kinda an emphatic part in my mind, not because I’m one step away from being a hypnotic subject, but for a reason that comes forward in my comment. I had some pre-existing familiarity with Tv Tropes. Before I forget, here’s what I responded:

    “I know the site got a lot of criticism back then because some of its more disturbed, difficult and questionable posters. I’ve heard it from some people I know that have frequented or visited the site. Apparently as a part of a site redesign more troubling folks were kicked out, from what I’ve heard, and it’s gotten a lot better.

    I think the wiki-side’s sensible and their articles do link to different sources, so you needn’t be logged in to get something out of it. Not to advertise the site, but to try to be as fair and objective as I can.

    Do you know something I don’t?

    Of course what I forgot to say is that I find the language in some articles quite jargon-y. There’s only so much I can take. Luckily some editors have sensibly edited many such jargon bits into something more easily digestible.

    That and the useful notes sections seems like a great way for visitors to get sound info, even actually linking to sources. I’ve mostly camped in that area.

    I feel that if you say I should take a look at Tv Tropes there’s something to it to take note of. Have you been on the site yourself, even for a short time? What about anyone you know? Have you heard something about it, favorable, non-favorable, mixed, neutral? Do you have misgivings? Something that would make the article I linked to suspect, biased, unreliable, misleading etc.? Is there something about the site itself, its folks or something said about the site that gives you cause for concern, even small or vague concern, even just something that would make you scratch your head?

    1. Timothy,
      I think Suzi answered this question rather well. I really appreciate your input, nothing personal. Take very good care and I enjoy reading your posts.

    2. Wait? I must’ve gotten confused jumping back and forth between newer and older comment sections. Today I must’ve scrolled about six or seven comment sections on this site and I’m doing a lot just sitting on my bed and digesting everything at once.

      Where did Suzi answer to this?

      And no worry, didn’t take anything you said personally in any measure.

  4. To continue with some of the thoughts on, as BTOV so catchingly put it, the Character-Disordered World. Timothy posted a link to an appalling article, illustrating the cyberabuse that goes on in certain communities dished out by what someone fairly recently must have named SJWs — social justice warriors. People masquerading as lefties laboring on behalf of some noble cause.

    Some commenters there are actually diverted into thinking it has to do with politics, esp. the right/left divide. Of course it doesn’t. The bullies morph into whatever new opportunities to bully others present themselves.

    A while back I suffered abuse from, and witnessed it, by trans activists, namely by some males (and their champions) who present themselves as women and get mighty indignant when anyone questions, or even is just confused by, the terminology they insist on. But hey, it’s just our old acquaintance, rationalized abuse.

    I am minded of a new category of manipulative ploys, to add to the list Dr Simon presented in Sheep, and the one very well done by Patricia Evans as well. There is the category of “playing the victim” — right? So this one is another twist on it. I am calling it “playing the victim defender.” This is where behavior of people who accuse others so readily of racism and various phobias and bigotries on behalf of some “victim population” fall. The European migrants are just the latest in the very long list of victims. When you question anything about this new category of victims, they will pounce on you mercilessly. Intimidation, name calling, and messing with your head are stock in trade, of course, but they need the justification which will provide opportunity for impression management and give them moral cover . That’s where victim defending comes in. Plain old abuse is no longer kosher, but abuse on behalf of some oppressed group, why, that is noble! And so the merry-go-round of bullying and manipulation turns.

    Nothing to do with politics. Our (non)friends the character disturbed are at it again. That is all, folks!

    1. Thanks for laying it on the table, Vera!

      It’s one thing to experience one’s gender identity to be different from one’s birth gender(that is, to be a trans female or trans male). It’s a whole another story to use that as a pretext to bully others into doing what one says because one has a “victim” card(or a “victim defender” card) or to control others.

      Playing the victim defender really sounds like a logical extension, just what you said, Vera, makes sense.

    2. vera: “social justice warriors [SJWs]”

      Some more words used to dumb down the people. Here we go again, words, words and more words used to twist and spin – oh! how deceivable and tricky words can be.

      vera: “And so the merry-go-round of bullying and manipulation turns.”

      Around and around in circles and the more confused and weary people become the bigger their circle becomes. Then all the blame is placed in the wrong places. Good people, organizations, governments become the targets/victims/survivors – anyone, everywhere and everything.

      Oh how well each of us on this blog know the pattern! Different characters the same disorder.

      “We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” -Albert Einstein

      1. Correction:

        Around and around in circles and the more confused and weary people become the bigger the “disordered” circle becomes.

        1. Did you notice, guys? That woman who plowed into a parade and killed a number of people is now saying, poor me, I snapped because I was living in a car. Will people buy her victim card?

          1. I’ve been thinking about her this morning. Perhaps this is a situation similar to what I pointed out in a comment I made several weeks ago.

            A disordered character/dysfunctional environment can push a person off the edge – by soul murder and suicide.

            She has a young child, no home, no place to sleep thus likely no food and no job etc. That’s a tremendous burden on one’s mental health – tremendous!

            Will people buy her victim card – I don’t know. She’s going to have several charges filed against her. This is the kind of stuff that upsets me so badly.

          2. Vera,

            I very much doubt it…the Twinkie Defense doesn’t go very far these days. Anyhoo, I think she was drinking at the time so that is going to hurt her defense big time.

            I think people are just sick and tired of all these lame excuses. Did you see where that cop got life and then some for raping young girls that he would bust for such and such. He cried like a baby. He was white, they black. Some things are changing and that is a very good thing. Such a good looking guy too but I know that doesn’t really matter. Power is power, sick is sick, mean is mean no matter how it is dressed up.

            Theresa Maria

          3. Once one realizes they are a “victim” of bullying, as I am sure I am – and covert bullying is different than outright physical abuse — wake the hell up and take action. Educate oneself, get treatment if possible. Once one realizes what’s really going on – and it is terribly confusing – you no longer are as easy a target. I often say I’d been victimized, and I had. But now I see it all clearly. And I want no pity. I want support and good advice. And that’s what I’m getting here on this blog. I am so thankful to you all.

          4. Vera,
            Sad to say, but yes. That is what our society has become. We can just stand up for what is right and hold our ground. BTW you stated this very eloquently above. Thank you

      2. This video by a great Youtuber, Sargon of Akkad, shows great examples about what self-proclaimed “social justice warriors” do.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ofna1Mtl0

        Caution! The video starts with people yelling at each other, so a lower volume is advised.

        Around 7:00 is an example of bullying/harassment, which Sargon calls what it is. Bullying is bullying, even when under the excuse of attacking “cultural theft” – you know, something as “outrageous” as a white person having dreadlocks. For the bullies in that instance, it seems to be just that, an excuse. The sadistic fun they get from bullying and harassing another person is the main purpose there.

        It does seem to me, though, that many people do believe in radical extremes like that or are persuaded by them. Extreme ideologies can be in any shape or form. True believers seem to make up a good bulk. Why else would amping up such an ideology work?

  5. First off, I love the dog story. All this advice is excellent advice. The only contact I have with STBX is through email. After losing my cool numerous times through email and getting drawn into his game, I sent the following email, over 30 days ago:
    “Emails are not your avenue to reach me to verbally abuse, berate, use sarcasm and show your hostility towards me. If there is a bill that needs to be paid send it without comments.”
    I have only had one very short email conversation with him since. We both know what the email jargon meant, he being an ex-attorney and myself a court reporter. It means quit the harassment.
    Yeah, I sent lots of emails to my attorney at the beginning, because of the abuse and harassment and boy did it cost me. Don’t do that anymore.
    My attorney is a friend of mine, and she is well aware of my cost concerns, so I am actually doing some of my own “leg work”. And I completely understand the court system, since I work here at the courthouse where my case is filed.
    As soon as I find out what money is actually left, how much he has dissipated, and how much I intend to offset from a fair division, I’d like to get this divorce settled and be done. But I’m still in the discovery stage.
    You all are so right about the No Contact. I do as minimally as possible. And it’s been hard work to control my anger. And I’ve had lots of therapy. I feel like I’m actually ok.
    My court case is about as complex as they get, with the disbarment, the dissipation of assets. His acts of deception are of record with the ATtorney REgistration Discipline Committee, on record with lies to the Appellate Court and lies to the Supreme Court of Illinois.
    So any records I do receive in disclosure I have to conclude that the answers to requests and records are either incomplete or false. Makes it difficult.
    His world is crashing down. He has a job, but not earning nearly what he is capable of. He’s lost the respect of his community. He’s lost me – not that he cares. He is an angry, miserable man. Thinks he is so smart and witty. But he keeps shooting himself in the foot. Someday I’ll be entirely through with him.

      1. I just walked past him after lunch today, him coming out of his lawyer’s office, which I right across the street from where I work. He gave me a hateful icy glare. Just looking at him makes me feel uneasy.

        1. Linda,
          I am so sorry you have to run into him all the time. Hopefully, he will go somewhere else to work and I am sorry I am sure find shortly, find a new unsuspecting victim. I hope you just turned your head like he wasn’t there. This truly is the best response. Mine did this too, he would stretch his neck as long as a goose around the attorneys and glare at me.

          Never, a decent word came out of him except he was the victim and I deserved Nothing! (Laughing) He could not stand I would not look at him, I never smirked, just always calm, I never spoke unless asked too. He looked like the mental case he always accused me of. Believe me they knew what they were looking at.

          That glaring portrait of hate is really who they are inside. Very, very ugly, sinister, evil and yes, crazed demonic. Thats the only word that fits, go and watch a horror movie and I guarantee you will see the glare and looks I am describing.

          In all that we went through when the judge asked him if he wanted a divorce he said “NO.” Can you imagine the idiocy of that answer, and him thinking I would break down and cry OK. I have been very hurt and sad over this, questioned and remember the good things (selective thinking) but in my whole being I know this is one sick puppy!

          Blessings and a big hug!

          1. BTOV

            I strive to be as calm and collected as you. My eyes caught his today while he gave me that icy glare and I just stared at him. I think I was shocked.
            So yours didn’t want a divorce. Mine would have loved to have stayed in marital hell – for the money. Like your ex, mine also likes to say that I’m crazy. He even out in a petition that I suffer a mental illness of which I take medication for. What a jerk. I’ve never seen such an allegation in a petition. He did it to embarrass me at my workplace. Says I even threatened suicide. He’s a crazy mean Lying SOB. I don’t know how to get past the anger. I’ve been played – am still being played. How do you get over the anger? I don’t like being bullied. It’s just a crazy scenario. He screws up his life and mind and creates a financial mess and takes it out on me. He is such a coward cannot even own unto his own crap.

  6. Linda

    Please there is a Book

    Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone With Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

    Bill Eddy(A LAWER) Randi Kreger (He wrote “STOP WALKING ON EGG SHELLS”)

    Published by New Harbinger Pubns (2011)
    ISBN 10: 1608820254 ISBN 13: 9781608820252

    How do you get over the anger? I don’t like being bullied.

    You learn how they think! I Hope it will be of some help to you

    There is a site on You Tube CALLED Narcissist Free

      1. Linda,
        The Books by Bill Eddy are very good. I would order it at Amazon or a bookstore will order it for you. About $20.00 I referred to it many times. Is Illinois a community property state like WI. Oh if I knew what I did now, but then its a learning process. It would had helped had I known someone. The lawyers don’t want you to know anything.

        Unfortunately, Joey Zanne is right, you have to understand how they think. I have been in his head many times. Dr. Simon know how they think. After awhile it gets easy.

        Try taking your self outside of your situation, try to look at it as if it is someone else. I forget Linda, did you say how long you were married?

  7. Illinois is not a community property state. It is equitable distribution. This is where my dissipation claim will hopefully offset a portion of the assets.

    I’ve been married 29 years. Filed year 28. I do understand the court system quite well being a court reporter working in family court since 1983.

    My case has already made it to the Appellate Court over the sale of my house. I obtained an Order from the judge that jerk cannot have any communication with the realtor, cannot participate in house sale negotiations. Just me. It comes up for oral argument next month. I’ve spent thousands of dollars just trying to sell the house.

    I am beginning to get inside STBX head, after reading so many articles on this blog, comments and I did finish one of Dr. Simon’s books. Once I finally accepted the fact that he is truly a mean, vicious person and let go of the person he once was it is easier to deal with. Still, though, I’m nervous and worried, as I should be. He is out to win and do whatever it takes to get his way.

    1. Linda,
      It must be so difficult having to run into him all the time and then working with so many people that know the drama of your case. Mine ran the divorce well over 6 figures 3X over. Really disgusting isn’t it. He thought by being non-compliant I would cave. He wanted things to stay just as they were.

      The longer I am away the happier I am and can see clearly how lopsided things were. In the long run it was still worth. Still digging out of the rubble but at least I have peace.

      There is good fear and bad fear and as a friend of mine said fear is of the devil and there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Don’t fear him, they feed off of fear. Be very cautious and trust your gut. I wouldn’t engage in any manner with him or any friends that triangulate it just keeps things going and feeds into their sickness. I don’t underestimate these sick individuals either and really try to keep my distance. I never showed weakness and that is alarming to them. I do not know how CD your STBX is, but when you read about the women who have been murdered it is alarming, so stay safe and aware of your environment.

      In certain respects I am limited what I can say on the internet. Be careful too.

      1. BTOV

        Non compliant – that my STBX. And over six figure 3X, yes, that is disgusting.
        I’m glad you found the court struggle to be worth it. And caving – I’ve had weak moments, for sure. I hope to not cave, but to find a settlement that I believe is fair, that is what I want.
        Like you, the longer I’m away from the lopsidedness the more peace I have. My STBX told me at the beginning stages that I can’t afford to divorce him because I’d ‘OWE HIM close to a million. Haha. laugh on him. Threats and lies – I don’t believe anything that comes out of his mouth. What sickens me is he is after my pension. Well low and behold he won’t be able to collect a dime of it till I retire. That’s how state pension works. And if he dies before I retire, boom, 100 percent back to me.
        My retirement plans are all afoul now, but I’ll be able to survive it. Fortunately I have a good paying job.
        Yes, and I watch my back and stay away and communicate as little as possible. Thanks for your help. All of you.

        1. Linda,
          Until you get that decree by the judge, be very careful. I hope you changed all locks, keep outside lights burning, motion detectors, motion lights and even perhaps surveillance. The CD tampered with my brakes and many a CD has paid a derelict to do their dirty work.

          I put nothing past some of these individuals. The closer things get and the realization of the loss of power the more desperate. No matter how much he has screwed up his life you will always be at fault and blamed.

          I hate to say even when we are done or we should be, for people like them it is in their minds Pay Back Pal.

          1. Wow. Brake tampering. I live with a friend, so that gives me security. This CD can take me out at any time he has two large safes full of guns. Even assault weapon. He says he sold it. I can’t believe anything he says. And it’s impossible to take away his guns unless he commits domestic battery or has a mental evaluation that says he’s ill. Or unless I can prove he anuses controlled substance, which he does. Pay Back Pal – first I’ve heard of that. But yes I beginning to understand what you’re speaking of Are you still being taunted?

  8. And the desperation part – when it comes time for testimony regarding his spending money on hotels – some days from one up to seven hotels in one day – all different ones – and numerous cash withdrawal at different locations – he will be like a cornered honey badger- but there will be no good answers. Then he may just come after me. I hope not. Maybe I should seriously consider conceal and carry

    1. Linda,

      I can’t comment here on the above that is why I suggested to you. Your situation made my hair stand up so to say. Pay Back Pal is when these psychos wait, time is on their side and this scum bag knows the ropes and all the tricks in the bag. And I am sure the list in his scummy black book is full of nefarious characters. I have met some women with X attorneys and they did some real low things.

      1. He has already really low things. I guess he will continue this course. I’d think he’s back off on his unreasonable demands knowing his bad acts are going to come to light in court. .

  9. Linda,
    It’s not over for me, it’s been final for 3 years. Its always calm before the storm, he has nothing better to do. Remember in their minds they are the Victim, your the nothing that caused all their problems. Its unbelievable that the CD thinks you deserve nothing.

    If you go to the top of the page to the search option type in Neurotic or Character Disordered. All the topics will come up and its the last post on
    One Anxiety. Its the last post, I just thought it was a great post and articulated well.
    I am not that savvy with the computer.

      1. Suzi,
        Thanks, I’ll have to try to figure how to do this! (Hug) Now off to work on some more drama. It doesn’t stop when you have NUTS in the family. I have been told “that which doesn’t kill you will make you stronger. I sure hurt though. Big breath!
        Peace, joy and blessings to all you kindred spirits.

        1. BOTV,

          I was just lucky. I don’t have much computer skills.

          “that which doesn’t kill you will make you stronger.”

          Yea, I’ve often heard that said. Although there are often times I question the whole concept because I don’t feel stronger.

          Feeling hurt is a accurate description and I feel cheated. Cheated out of so much – so many, many things that others take for granted. It’s mind boggling how people take most things in their life for granted.

          I suppose there are many ahead of us that went to their graves without understanding that the craziness in their families was not their fault. The poor souls, the cruel atrocities, how they suffered. I wish many of my family were still alive so I could tell them the truth.

          I don’t know, I’ve been at this my whole life and I get it, although I just don’t feel stronger.

          I hope your day at work went as well as one could hope for. Although I understand the odds are slim – You can’t fly with the eagles when you work with turkeys.

          1. Suzi,
            Who are these people who make up these sayings that we forever keep seeing and quoting ourselves?
            That which doesn’t kill you wears you out. Stronger? I don’t know. Wiser possibly. It does show how much resilience a person has. It’s an art to learn how to “bounce back” after you’ve been struck, time and time again. Goodness.

        1. Linda,

          OK – so we become wiser and resilient.

          None the less I still lack the strength to enjoy my new state of wisdom and resiliency. Living with these disordered characters certainly is hard on one’s health.

          I’m not really bouncing, I’m crawling.

          1. Suzi,
            So lets hold hands, I know it is so very hard especially when you have no moral support or a family to go to. I don’t work due to my physical limitations and have PTSD from being assaulted years ago, a long story, nothing to do with my X. My docs call me the cat with nine lives and a success to boot. If I won the lottery for everything that has happened to me well I wouldn’t be posting here. Not really, I have a problem giving to much when my own needs arn’t met, away, I’m not to even give a pencil away.

            I truly believe the Lord has something for me to do, what that is I am not sure. I have faith that he will reveal his plan in his time. In the meantime from everything I have gone through I have ended up here and everyone is so gracious and accepting. Now isn’t that something the person we respect as our fearless leader. Speaks volumes of divine intervention, me thinks. Moral Integrity and Character Dr. encourages us to live by.

            Suzi, I bought tons of vitamins, I am posting here, and a lot of praying. I am going to try to do yoga again. I do understand how hard so very very hard it is. I am glad you found your way here too. I have lived with chronic pain for 25 years. I figured out how to get rid of the Pain in the Ass. There are a few thorns left I am working on though, am thinking eventually distance will be the answer. The docs suggested a warmer climate.

            Then there are the CD’s in my family of origin. I divorced most of them too. However, I am POA for a sister that is a paraplegic, so they have issues of not liking to have to come to me for anything and try to undermine me due to not liking authority. A big red flag of the CD. They hate answering to anyone. The sad thing is we could all work together in a concerted effort for the benefit of my sisters life to make it the best possible. So sad, but not surprising considering the world we live in.

          2. Suzi,

            I know what you mean by dealing with these CDs is bad for one’s health. I don’t sleep well. I constantly worry – which is new to me – and worrying does not solve a thing. Living separately than with the CD sure helps a lot. But yeah, these CDs just don’t let up. They get in your head and life. My daughter and her small child live with my STBX. I feel bad that she has to deal with it now. And she gets the wrath somehow from him when he is angry with me, which is always.
            I was crawling until I got angry. Extremely angry for what he has done and is still doing. The hurt is gone and replaced with anger, which is no good for the health either. I strive to be indifferent. But I’m not there just yet.
            Medications can help when it gets really bad.

  10. BTOV,

    You said some attorneys of CDs(?) have done “some real low things”.

    Would you list what you know? Could that help to understand and prepare?

    1. My CD’s attorney has done some low things, number one, filing any petition my STBX wants filed because he gets paid to do so. Number two, filing a petition for contempt of court against me for not paying the real estate taxes due (which I cannot afford – I left the marital home with no savings). One of the sanctions attorney asked for is to have me put in jail till I pay the taxes. What a low-life scumbag, the both of them.

      1. Who was ordered to pay the taxes? In most divorces of this sort until the final judgement taxes go unpaid. There is a lot to my D I can’t discuss here. The judge will never hold you in contempt, your STBX sicko is going to cause you as much upset as possible and run up your attorneys fees.

        Your X figures he is going to make you pay by constant harassment in the courts. If you can ignore him and his tactics, you should not have to go to court for a hearing of this sort. I know when a motion is filed it is customary your attorney respond. If so, ask for anything you can live with until your next hearing.

        Is it a contested divorce and a trial set?

        Hang in there, I know it must be so difficult working in the courthouse. He is trying to intimidate you, get you to get angry. Be very careful who you speak to. Individuals of his sort will stoop to anything including making up false allegations. Example she made the comment she wanted to XXXX me. All he needs is one scumbag to testify to that and he can make you life hell. Then he can file a DVI on you.

        I hope there is no way he can access your email. I would buy a new computer. Right now be so very cautious of who you talk to and trust. A good friend one day is not your friend the next. I can’t say it enough to be careful. I would change your name here if that is your real name if he even suspects or has the capabilities to access your computer. And never use the computer at work.

        You have no idea how many twists and turns your divorce can take. He doesn’t care about the money except pay-back to you. I know its hard when your so stressed not to talk about it.

        I know you want to vomit and vomit all the sickness out but it keeps coming and the only thing is to talk it out. Im telling you the only thing that will clean your innards now is DRANO. Unfortunately, that would kill you. I hope your hearing is soon, I don’t doubt he will try to postpone it to keep the drama going.

        This may sound odd, but I felt compassion in the sense of what a wasted life. He chooses to lose his soul. I would never want to be in his shoes on judgement day. Believe me his life is a pitiful mess and he wants to bring you down to his level. Hold your head high and when you have to be anywhere he is don’t give him the satisfaction of reacting to him in any way.

        Think of it this way, business as usual, listening to another idiot. At the same time pray for his soul and redemption, it will make you grow and you will not experience any of the hate he does. Hold your head high, with dignity, don’t look at him, snicker, or any of the stuff you have seen. If he knows you want something he will want it or destroy it.

        1. BTOV,
          You are spot on on every topic. Neither of us was ordered to pay taxes, but we are ordered to split the household expenses. So, no, taxes is not a part of that. And yes, he files motions as harassment. There is no way I’ll go to jail. He likes to threat. His petitions make him look bad. No setting yet for a hearing on the merits. There has been settings for pending motions hearing but they keep continuing.
          My attorney keeps telling me to not talk to people at work. I try. They keep asking me questions though. He is filing the case with issues that have no importance to the main issues – which is equitable distribution of assets – and dissipation of assets – on his part. He does not want his **** aired in court, that’s for sure.
          He has made a complete mess of his life. He’s chosen the dark path. It keeps getting darker. He’s miserable and mean.
          I’ve watched enough in-court hearings to know how to behave in court. Just sit there stone faced.
          And you’re right, the things he knows I want, he has petitions filed to sell them.
          Looks like I need to change my name.
          You have such great advice and I thank you.
          You can call me Lucy from now on. My nickname.

          1. To our newest comment “India” I had to tell people “I am not at liberty to discuss the case. Be real careful about your emails and where they come from. The diseased brain will think of anything to cause you distress and harm. Never underestimate what they will do. If it harms you they will not care about the ramifications to themselves as long as they can salivate on your destruction.

            We are praying for your liberation from bondage “India.” How long has your process been going on since you filed for D?

  11. BOTV,

    I am so sorry for all that you’ve been through and all that you continue to endure. Please take really good care of your health and stop to rest when you must.

    Didn’t you say in a previous comment that you watch Charles Stanley? Well then you’ve heard him speak of the times the enemy hits us hard – HALT – Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. Those are the times when our bodies are weakened and then add the extra burdens dumped on us by the CD’s . The constant flow of the fight/flee hormones is terribly destructive on the body. Stress is notorious for triggering autoimmune, inflammation and pain syndromes. The warm, dry climate I’ve heard from doctors to.

    Evil shows it’s ugliest head when CD’s take advantage and mistreat the crippled, the blind the deaf and all those that are less fortunate than themselves. I saw a lot of that in my family of origin. And all the enablers and sympathizers well they are no better. If people won’t take care of their own family members then that is lowest of all.

    If families worked together just imagine how many of the social problems would decline and how many social services would be put out of business. If every member of the family took responsibility for the welfare of the family unit we would not be such a needy society. Going deep comes before going wide.

    Oh yes, there’s a few thorns left in my life to, but at this point I’m not going to consider distance. I’m very careful what I wish for.

    Thankfully you have the POA for your sister so when they start shoving you can legally push back. Your no’s mean no and your yes’s mean yes. Shoving and pushing comes with the mindset of the beast. CD’s don’t buy into the firm yes or no concept from others, but the legal system is on your side.

    “I truly believe the Lord has something for me to do, what that is I am not sure.”

    I’m not sure either. He must have something in mind that I should be doing, yet I just haven’t figured it out. But then, just maybe, we are doing something. Something very important that we should have been doing a long time ago – taking care of ourselves. As age and/or poor health sneaks up on us, taking care of ourselves becomes a big task all in its self – a hard day’s work.

    Charles Stanley often includes in his messages – All that is asked of us is to do our best then leave the rest up to God.

    Holding hands and held together by the power of Prayer.

    1. Suzi,

      Good point, taking care of ones self and family should be the highest priority. Stress is no good. I call what I’m going through “putting out fires”. I deal with what is in front of me at the time and try to resolve before I get hit again. But, yes, it’s wearing on me for sure.
      Thank goodness I understand the legal system and have some good trustworthy friends.
      Are you speaking of literal “pushing and shoving”, physical acts?
      I have not yet found my calling. I’m just trying to survive all this chaos. But come to think of it, the two roomates that I’ve lived with since I left the marital home have said I’ve helped them tremendously. Me – who was falling apart – helped them. I they helped me.

      1. Lucy,
        My nick name as a child was goofy Lucy. You just told the world your name. We will know who you are if you repost and don’t tell your friends anything. Its human nature to talk about another (gossip) even if they don’t mean to hurt you.

    2. POA don’t have as much authority as you may think. Family members can step all over you and then recourse is court.

      Suzi, when I was at my weakest and in pain he attacked me the worst. I couldn’t imagine what took over him but now I know. How pathetic and really cowardly. I think about it now and it just is mind boggling someone can be so cruel. Regardless of my weak state I can muster the strength to stand up to him, not confrontational but with the suit of armor supplied by God. It makes the vampire recoil. And yes there are angels that surround me.

      Suzi, thank you so much for you words of strength, comfort and wisdom. I get In Touch from Charles Stanley every morning. I also have bought some of his tapes, just so inspiring. He also comes on early in the morning, I will have to start taping him. Am going to read a book by Charles Swindel. Heres to the good fight and his words will strengthen you.

      Have you ever tried light exercise or yoga that may help you and yes vitamins can help too. The best help is a loving person whose words of kindness and understanding uplift you. Peace and a lighthearted day to you Suzi.

      1. Well now let’s see if I can get this correct – BTOV. I just noticed that I have been reversing the letters in your name. I am so sorry. I’m always doing something dumb. I use to worry that I was crazy, now I’m worried that I’m getting senile. So sorry!

        “POA don’t have as much authority as you may think. Family members can step all over you and then recourse is court.”

        Everything is such a mess. The legal system is no exception. Everything is fueled by greed and money. Money is power and control. When money talks abusers walk.

        “when I was at my weakest and in pain he attacked me the worst.”

        That has been my experience also. It’s frightening. Hospitalizations are to, I never know if my pets are safe, that’s my biggest worry. Then if the house will still be standing or damaged in some way when I get home. Thief and sabotage is a real big and persistent problem around here. You are so correct – it’s mind boggling.

        “Have you ever tried light exercise or yoga that may help you and yes vitamins can help too”

        Yes, except the exercise – I’ve got to work on that, it’s a New Year’s resolution – it was last year also.

        “The best help is a loving person whose words of kindness and understanding uplift you.”

        That’s it in a nut shell. It’s at the top of the list – for everyone, in every situation. People need people, kind caring people. I can run an errand, chit-chat with a salesclerk for a few minutes about the weather and it’s like I’ve taken a happy pill – even if a blizzard is coming.

        1. Suzi,
          Sounds like your in a similar situation. I think I will look for a gated community in a warm climate, with others that are in a similar boat and live out my years. Kind of find a good Golden Girl and Guy bunch that survived the CD.

          1. btov,

            Are you trying to confuse me? lower case?

            Your ideas sound great! And add sunny to the list. Gotta have a lot of sunny days – Vit D.

          2. Suzi,
            I was requested to re-enter my info. I was lazy and used small letters. When I first posted I used my real name and then Dr. Simon changed it for me. I always call my separation and D the Bonfire of the Vanities. Wala – BTOV. There are a few posts with my real name where I had to re-enter and forgot. Not trying to confuse. I am trying to be cautious just like I had suggested to another poster.

            Florida is nice isfyou don’t mind the humidity. Otherwise, when your used to it I know a lot of people love it. My Dr.s suggested Arizona, but I worry about the water issue. I seriously am trying to get this mess straightened out and deciding whether to re-locate and begin a new life. This time I get to decide the chapters end without all the excuse me please MF games I never knew existed.

            Perhaps, we all should develop a community near Dr. Simon. Hmmmm……. Now there is an idea. Arkansas is low taxes, a mild winter, warm, and a beautiful state. I was there 15 years ago to dig Diamonds. Many places close by to travel too.

            I better be quiet I may start some trouble here. We could call it Simon’s refuge. I bet we would have quite a few interested parties in this venture.

            What thinks you Suzi? Home alone tonight, but have peace. Eating leftovers and my little rescue dog (Pomeranian?) Buddy Bill is gnawing on a prime rib bone. He will drop it and let me look at it and I tell him, “Hmmm.. Oh this is good” and give it back to him.

  12. Linda,

    “I strive to be indifferent. But I’m not there just yet.”

    You’re getting there. It’s a process that involves moving back and forth between various feelings and emotions. Be patient and kind with yourself. Don’t give up but take time to rest and take care of yourself.

    “Medications can help when it gets really bad.”

    Yes medication does help and sometimes are necessary. IMHANPO (humble, and non-professional opinion) I would think that constant trauma has a wear and tear effect on the nervous system. Fear is a biggy. Out of all emotions I seem to think that fear is the most difficult to process.

  13. Lucy,

    When push comes to shove – No I did not mean physical. It’s a idiom. When things get a little pressed; when the situation is critical or urgent or intense; when the time has come for action, even if it is difficult, it’s time to get tough and stand firm.

    You said: “I have not yet found my calling. I’m just trying to survive all this chaos. But come to think of it, the two roomates that I’ve lived with since I left the marital home have said I’ve helped them tremendously. Me – who was falling apart – helped them. I they helped me.”

    Helping others by sharing and caring conversations is a calling. The spoken word with compassion and empathy offers validation – validation is healing.

  14. BTOV,

    I agree, real names are not safe. It’s not worth taking any chances. Always better safe than sorry.

    The south-east and mid-south are nice areas.

    What do I think – You’re home alone, peace, plain simple meal with Buddy Billy – I think you are some place similar to Heaven.

    I’m sorta home alone. Alone but together in the same house. So depressing. He’s a bump on a log. If joy hit him smack in the face he’d never know it.

    I couldn’t make this stuff up if my very life depended on it.

  15. BTOV
    Sorry to hear you’re suffering physically along with all the aggravation CDs bring to your life. Please know that I am learning so much from your posts and you should know it is making my situation more tolerable

  16. Hello,

    I am new to learning all that I can about manipulation and narcissism. I just ordered the book, “In Sheep’s Clothing” and I am anxious to start reading.

    Prior to marriage, I stated to my fiance that I wouldn’t tolerate drinking and the bar, and it wouldn’t be a part of our life. We both grew up with alcoholic fathers. He agreed and stated that he hated it when his dad spent time at the bar, wouldn’t come home to be with the family and the negative affects it had on him.

    Pretty soon, the drinking and bar became a regular thing. Two children came and our lives were busy. I told myself he wasn’t like my dad because, he was providing financially for our family. But, I was so sick of the lies, driving drunk and his total disregard for my feelings. I prayed every time we were preparing for the next move, that things would be different. He even promised they would. They never were. His statement was “if you can’t handle what I do, then you are the one with the issues, not me”. Two years into our last move things were worse. He had successfully climbed the ladder of his military career, I had quit bragging on him and treating him like he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. He found other woman that stroked his ego. When I confronted him, after finding numerous texts and phone calls, he stated that he liked doing things for “her” because she wasn’t a nag and bitch like me. He also said I was a f***ing retard with a Personality Disorder. (apparently she and him collaborated that her husband and me, had this disorder). He also said that there was no way we could save our marriage because I had issues and needed to change. He wanted a divorce after 22 years.

    I was encouraged to attend counseling and the words “narcissism” and “manipulation” was brought up. I thought those were pretty harsh words but, decided to look into it more. I was also told that I didn’t have a Personality Disorder as I started questioning my own sanity. I told my husband that he should go to counseling and talk to someone. He called me up one day and told me we had an appointment with my counselor to talk. I told him that she was already seeing me and she could only refer him to another counselor. She wouldn’t talk to him after already helping me. He got angry and said I better be there. I called my counselor and asked why was I suppose to come to this meeting because she had told me she wouldn’t meet with us both. She told me he didn’t call to make an appointment to talk about his issues because he told her he wasn’t the problem. He wanted to talk to her about my issues! She told him that was against the HIPA law and she could only talk to him, about me, if I was there and gave permission. I called him back and told him my conversation with the counselor and he stated “she was lying”.

    Once I filed and he started loosing control of that part of his life, he became very odd. He moved out but, would come over and constantly try to find ways to push my buttons to start a fight. When it didn’t work, it was like he couldn’t handle the fact that things were out of his control. After our son graduated high school and we were able to move back to the state we have come from, I totally cut off all communication with my ex. Any time I would try and discuss the finalization of the divorce, he would be so condescending and belittling to me.

    I’m not trying to learn all I can to fix him, because that is over. I just don’t want to fall prey to that type of relationship, ever again.

    Thanks for your help.
    Pam

    1. So he abused alcohol, lied, failed to deliver on his promises and even drove drunk and yet had the gall to claim the problem could only be you?

      What an unreasonable bastard.

    2. How exhausting. Aren’t you glad to be rid of him!! Wish I were done with mine. Never-ending court battle.

      I don’t think you’ll fall prey again. You know the signs now. Too bad there isn’t a way we can test people on these traits to find them out immediately.

  17. I have been working as a mentor in a Christian environment ..It’s been quite interesting to find the number of Manipulative people enjoying the status as “beacons of strong faith & character” who actually control and manipulate covertly to fulfill their aspirations of being “extraordinary ” The disturbed character types Irregardless of having reared their ugliness periodically before others seem to be excused . Worse yet when the family members call out for help ..words like covenant , commitment & honor only serve as a weapons for the Abuser . Don’t get me wrong I believe in Christ’s power to heal people and marriages ..however , the characteristics Discussed here need a heavy dose of arm bending failures to succumb and even a life time of it may not change their behavior or only change it for short seasons . It’s torment for those in close relationship ! “Peace I leave to you” . If you are finding yourself in relationship with the Characterly disturbed person described here .. Whom Christ has set free is free indeed ! Jesus is the healer not you and sometimes leaving is the best option even if it brings different yet survivable pain .

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