Committed Relationships Can Fuel Growth

Life is mostly about relationship. And how we conduct ourselves in our relationships pretty much defines our character.  We grow in character by learning to love rightly. That takes considerable, committed effort. But the payoffs are immense. Unfortunately, in our character impaired times, too few among us are willing to pay the price. The story I share below exemplifies what can happen two people put love and growth ahead of self-interest. (As always, key aspects of the story have been deliberately distorted to preserve anonymity.)

A Tale of Growth

Jane and Mark had known each other since high school. They weren’t really high school sweethearts. They both dated other people back in those days. But they knew each other fairly well and re-connected in college. And somehow there was instant chemistry between them. In fact, they fell so hard for each other they hardly knew what hit them. And they tied the knot after only a brief engagement. Each just knew they’d found their true soulmate, so they couldn’t wait to spend the rest of their life together.

Neither Mark nor Jane expected to get pregnant when they did. And it really threw them for a loop. Mark hadn’t finished business school and Jane had just completed the prerequisites she needed to pursue her nursing degree. Times got pretty tough and pretty quickly. And that’s when the all the arguments and hard feelings began. Jane felt Mark put his career ambitions and good times with his college buddies first. She and the family they had started always came second. Would he ever grow up? She had her doubts. And Mark couldn’t understand why the person who once could never get enough of him wouldn’t get close.  He hated the distance. But it only got worse after the baby came.

Decision Time

Mark came home late for the fourth time in a week. And he again to pick up a few needed things from the store. Mark had stopped at the bar after work again to meet his buddies. And he was three sheets to the wind when So Jane issued an ultimatum. He would grow up or she would have to take some steps she never wanted to take.

Jane really didn’t want to divorce. And Mark didn’t want to lose the only person he’d ever cared for so much. So, instead of lashing back and blaming, he swallowed his pride and got busy. He got busy on himself. And he didn’t grandstand about it. Nor did he waste a lot of time with profuse apologies. His actions reflected his remorse.

Happy Reflections on Growth

Mark and Jane celebrated 25 years together with a long-planned trip to Hawaii. And one day on the beach they reminisced about the early days. They knew they’d both made mistakes. And they admitted them, not only to themselves but also to one another. They also knew their commitment made all the difference. It saved their marriage and helped them grow. They were different people, and for the better. Love and commitment made that possible.

This story ended happily. Unfortunately, all to many relationship stories these days don’t. Next week I’ll presenting another story. Sadly, you’ll find an example of what can happen when pride and a lack of caring stunt character growth and doom a relationship.

Character Matters may or may not air live Sunday June 11 at 7 pm EDT. So, I’ll announce at the beginning of the program if I can take calls at (501) 258-8326.

As always, thanks for recommending my books and this blog to others. And a big shout-out to all those requesting “America My Home” performance permissions for Fourth of July events.

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73 thoughts on “Committed Relationships Can Fuel Growth

  1. At the other end of the spectrum, I downloaded the audio book People of the Lie by Bob Peck M.D

    IT IS TOTALLY BRILLIANT.

    1. Joey and All

      Dr. Scotty Peck wrote many books, I believe his first book was called:
      A Road Less Traveled. It was on the New York sellers Best List for over 10 years. In this book Dr. Peck writes:

      “Love is the will to extend one’s self for the purpose of nurturing one’s own or another’s spiritual growth… Love is as love does. Love is an act of will — namely, both an intention and an action. Will also implies choice. We do not have to love. We choose to love.”
      ― M. Scott Peck

      Dr. Peck also wrote a second book A Road Less Traveled and Beyond. I would encourage you to read these books too. I read these books many years ago and pick them up at the thrift stores and give them out.

      I have to say Dr. Peck is one of my favorite writers, his biography is amazing and he has given this world so much. Once you have read these books, please note, Dr. Scotty Peck has written many others of which I have read. You truly will get to know the man through his writings.

      Dr. Simon writes with the same love, wisdom, understanding and inspirational insight from his heart and soul like Scotty Peck. I believe they would had been Kindred Spirits.

      1. Dr Peck in his book, has answered a question for me. Why did I stay so long.
        With the case of bobby and his brothers suicide. The depression bobby
        had was due to his parents contempt. Not due to any fault of bobbys. I deeply relate to that.

        1. Joey,

          I think if there were statistic studies on many of the individuals who commit suicide you will find a CDN in close relationship to the deceased. I know of several. The CDN was evil enough to cause the individuals to see no way out except to take their own lives. I think more will come out on this as more people grasp the knowledge of whom and what it is they are dealing with. Later when I have more time I will tell one of these tragic stories.

          1. I can definitely relate to that. I’ve often wondered it myself. There was a 15 year old boy who committed suicide not so long ago up here. I have met both of the parents, the father was way “off” I did not like him at all. He was just wrong plus him and his wife are never separate I only ever see them together, even at the shop. You would think one would be capable of going alone. I’d like to see some more studies and stats come out of that as well.

            There was also another suicide around the same time, he was an adult but I met his mother. There was something not right about that too. Both suicides were hangings. I’d like to see the stats on that as well.

          2. BTOV re what I said below and to clarify. I’d like to see the stats on:

            a. how many people commit suicide due to CD; and
            b. how many people commit suicide by hanging.

            I don’t think the results on a. if truthful would come as a surprise at all. The preferred method of death would be interesting as well. If you find any stats please share.

            I was on a train once and somebody committed suicide by jumpting that was disturbing enough and I’ll never forget it.

          1. No I hav’nt. I am more interested in the scientific side of CD’s. It has resolved more for me than anything. I used to think my mother/grandmother were complex. Instead I have learned that they were COMPLETE AND TOTAL COWARDS. WHO LIE TO THEMSELVES BECAUSE THEY CANNOT FACE WHO THEY TRULY WEAR.

            The questions are only easy if you know the answers

          2. Joey,

            This is a sight I followed for many years answering many questions for me. My father was a CDN and verbally destructive to many. Self esteem, my father loved himself, if he was nice to us it was because it pleased him. My father never thought twice to walk on or use anyone that would benefit him. I know the CD’s very well. I was fortunate in that, you could say I was one of two children who were his favorite.

            My being the favorite, his golden child, because I took care of the 6 children younger than me. I always had to take care of and feed the little ones. I also made top grades, that was a feather in his cap. I truly loathed him because of how he verbally abused my mother and other siblings.

            Out of decency and my Christian beliefs I took care of him before he died. My father said It never occurred to him he did anything wrong to anyone, it was everyone else who did something wrong to him.

            I am glad he is gone, he caused only misery to every life he touched.

            http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2008/05/kathy-krajco.html

  2. Thank you for this post.

    “They knew they’d both made mistakes. And they admitted them, not only to themselves but also to one another. ”

    What did Jane do wrong in this story?

  3. After 30 plus years of marriage with dysfunction and shallowness living with a spouse who didn’t show love, I am relearning how to have a healthy relationship and
    Learning how to be a couple, not doing most things independent of my BF, as I did in marriage. I’m so used to doing most things myself, not even expecting help, even though my BF is attentive and loving and conscientious. Old patterns are hard to break. I had become distant, hardened, and protected in marriage, so much so that I’ve had to change myself if I wanted to have a hEalthy loving relationship. I think I’m coming out of this long term rotten marriage ok. But to change old patterns does take an effort and an awareness on my part to not slip back into old behaviors and ways of dealing in a relationship.

  4. What section in a book store or library do I find these books that are recommended about CDs? I have read Dr. Simon’s books but I’m also interested in other authors. Thanks.

    1. SYdNeY,

      I haven’t read too many, but the only other book that directly address the question “how to deal with CDs…” is:
      Who’s Pulling Your Strings? by Harriet Braiker

      Other good books that cover similar topic and that I have read and recommend, are:
      Without Conscience by Robert Hare (the extreme type, how deep the rabbit hole goes)
      The Sociopath Next Door by Martha Stout (bit superficial & sensationalism, but good)
      People of the Lie by Scott Peck (good one)
      The Mask of Sanity by Cleckley (classic original)

      The best are definitely Simon’s book. They get the full Who/What/Where/When/How.

      In case I read more, first thing I will look for if book describes “bully is always a cover of chicken” “narcissism is always rooted in insecurity blah blah”. The moment I see that, it means it is from a believer of Victorian era psychology which no longer flies. There are quite a few that now acknowledge that narcissism could be of two types: the traditional one and non-traditional simple grandiose one. I read few such articles/papers.

      I stay clear of some types. I think Eudoxia posted a youtube video recently… Josh Lash and another one. First guy is some Tantric stuff, and a quick glance will tell you that he is always posing for camera in godman style. The second guy is self-proclaimed expert with no formal background and internet is full of this type. Both are dangerous people. They may be good, but why should I give benefit of double, take risk, and chase lottery. It is not that I did not spent time reading and listening to such. I did that and I still do, but now my bullshit alarm goes off much quicker.
      There are few decent video/text bloggers, but many of them still tend to slip into “bully is a cover up for chicken”.

    2. Actually now a days I just stick around here only. It is about an hour or two of counseling as well as group discussion or catharsis. All free!
      Only other resources that I looked in last 5-6 months are all recommendation and links posted in comments here.

    3. I read the question again. 🙂

      You need to go to “Psychology” section and look for books on the topic of narcissism, aggression, manipulators, liars.
      Or, head to “Self Help” sction and look for books on “dealing with difficult people” “dealing with liars'” etc.

    4. SYdNey,

      Many times I have gotten some good deals on used books at:

      Amazon
      1/2 Price Bookstore
      and this is a good one if they have what you are looking for:
      Thrift Books.com

      I read Andy’s comments and he has given you good advise and concur.

      I hope this help too. Please feel free to ask, we all learn from one another.

    5. SYdNey

      Another good way to do it is search on Amazon they will often bring up books on topics other people bought, it’s how I’ve found some rather good ones over the years, not necessarily by looking but by them just showing up. Good luck in finding what you are looking for.

      1. I have been blessed with successfully going NC with two CDs but I find this topic fascinating and so I thought I might to do some more reading.
        I’ve seen the same recommendations repeated since I started visiting this site but I didn’t know where to look for them in a library or book store. Amazon is a place I seem to forget so thanks for reminding me.

  5. Andy,

    I’ve only read Dr. Simon’s books, as well as reading posts here on this site, as well as some counseling during the time my special SB was on attack (abusive emailing) which had me upset a lot of the time. Reading the posts here about the benefits of No Contact were helpful. I know you can’t do NC being that you have a child together. NC or as little as possible in my case made a tremendous difference in my emotional health. Just because someone isn’t physically attacking one does not mean they aren’t attacking. Emotional abuse can and is debilitating.
    I’ve learned so much from posters personal accounts and experience in dealing with difficult people.
    Thank you all for your input and thank you, Dr. Simon, for providing the information and articles and giving space for your followers.
    Andy, I agree, once you hear/read that bullies are persons with low self esteem, I’m done with the article. That premise in my opinion is wrong and I’d have no further reason to read any more from that particular author.

    1. https://youtu.be/QDQqYZ3E5V0

      Dr Brad Bushman has done extensive research into Aggression and its links to Narcissism.

      Please Watch his lecture. It is very good.

      I agree, once you hear/read that bullies are persons with low self esteem, I’m done with the article.

      Lucy Dr Bushman says the same thing

        1. Joey, Lucy,

          I agree with this too. Bullies are cowards in this sense, they never pick on someone that is their own match, they always pick someone weaker. I mean they don’t pick a fight with a person that will kick their behinds, they don’t pick on someone that is savvy and onto their behavior. Instead they predate on the uninformed, caring Empaths who give them the benefit of the doubt and weaker individuals such as their own children.

          I have met only ONE that qualifies for a lack of self esteem. All of the others I have to deal with know exactly what they are doing and it includes the who, what, why, when and how’s and it’ always because
          it ‘s like Dr. says “They know what they are doing and don’t care.”

          I have spent years researching text books, mind you, and discourage most from reading these. Dr. Simon lays everything one needs to know out in a simplistic, straight forward manner. There are a few others out there, as Andy suggested, Who’s Pulling Your Strings is another great.

          Another good book that is used a lot is: Why Does He Do That by:
          Lundy Bancroft. There is so many individuals who know are now profiteering off the topic of Narcissism. We are all lucky to have found Dr. Simons work and all the other venues he gives us such as this blog. I do venture out reading and watching other You tubes, but find myself back home here. There is such a wealth of info and knowledge in the archives.

          Joey, thanks for the links, they are always great.

          1. BTOV
            “I agree with this too. Bullies are cowards in this sense, they never pick on someone that is their own match, they always pick someone weaker. I mean they don’t pick a fight with a person that will kick their behinds, they don’t pick on someone that is savvy and onto their behavior.”

            I have to disagree with this. I have had two very destructive women in my life who are outwardly self-confident but are covert bullies.

            It is astounding to watch these bullies single out a victim. There is definitely a trigger and I have confronted both of them and there is now NC.

            Galling to witness is when other people put up with their bullying and tolerate being singled out. I can only guess that they are afraid of the confrontation.

            My eldest brother is married to one of these covert bullies and even though he has been told about her behavior he continues to make excuses, he enables and since I’ve decided to go no contact with her then I’m dispensable to him. When a covert bully is confronted they will get their minions behind them to have an audience for a smear campaign. My SIL is still being entertained and welcomed into the homes of past victims of her bullying.

          2. Joey/BTOV/Lucy/Andy

            I just listened to Bushman’s talk. Very good – thanks Joey for sending. I relate to what you are saying about COWARDS yes indeed. I’ll stake my life on it they are the ones whose own parents were cruel and cold. The more esteemed the other bullies appear to be is due to entitlement of the type of parents Bushman refers in regard to over praising and instilling in their kids “they are special” etc. Bushman also nails it in regard to competition. To much emphasis is placed on competition win at all costs as opposed to fairness and collaboration.

            Joey your post on the pilot summed it up nicely. IMHO I think ALL of them have a shame component applicable to the core self. The construct is different and is who they relate to themselves as being, although it is not who they really are. Because they discarded the real self, the inner child self who has the shame and guilt. They squashed it down a long time ago. But it can still be triggered when they are criticized real or perceived or they get caught.

            Lucy’s ex was triggered when he got caught. These are your guys in some cases if not many who can “go postal” not saying that SB is likely to, but I think you get the gist. Such is the case with Andres the pilot. The Andres and the postal types rage at the world. There are other types who rage at the world also.

            The construct is what is esteemed in the entitled category, the more grandiose types come across and give the impression they have extremely high self esteem. Notwithstanding, they all react angrily to crticisim unless you have a real pro (and you are about to see one in a minute). Someone with genuine self esteem (Bushman the I’m ok) knows what they are good at and what they aren’t so good at. They can except criticism and can often appreciate it. This is why I like to prefer calling it healthy self esteem. Someone with healthy self esteem can except fault and know they are not good, better or great at everything, they know their limitations and are not ashamed of them. A person with healthy self esteem will feel remorse if they are in error and it is deemed their fault – justly. We can all make mistakes. Someone with healthy self esteem can say “I’m sorry”.

            Would you guys please take the time (7 minutes) to watch this clip of Lehman Brother’s CEO Dick Fuld at a congressional hearing post collapse. He’s very highly esteemed………………… and he even admits fault and is sorry (cough) erm just watch.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GGV3GGHD2Q

            BTOV the above is what I believe you were referring to with your comment of over esteemed. Please watch the next clip, same guy but before the collapse when Fuld found out some traders were shorting Lehman’s stock – very short (pardon the pun) just over a minute. A short put is a bet against a stock – they are backing it to fall in price.

            https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Dick+Fult+Rip+their+hearts+out&&view=detail&mid=FF5EC992F9AC7F68A0A5FF5EC992F9AC7F68A0A5&FORM=VRDGAR

            Andy I think we have been talking about the same thing and it is simply a matter of semantics.

            Do these guys have healthy self esteem? Or are they over esteemed? I think over esteemed as you but it BTOV – these guys though are motivated by raw greed and POWER i.e. dog eat dog, win at all costs mentality. Oh yes they are confident alright, nothing more certain or obvious but it is not what I consider healthy self esteem.

            The investors where shorting the Lehman’s stock when they found out Fuld on sold dodgy stock in an effort to clear Lehman’s own books. He knowlingly on sold them shit. The staff at Lehman’s did this knowing their careers would be finished.

            Because of de-regulation they can’t be prosecuted meaning no legislation exists by which they can be prosecuted under. They all walked well compensated and Lehman’s went down. Nothing has been put in place since. The same deregulation applies today and the banks are still doing the same thing. What is congress doing? JACK SHIT. They ask a lot of questions but as they are questioning psychopaths they are not getting any answers. I’ve watched hundreds of these hearings and it’s a real eye opener. You want to see merry go rounds, word salad, deflection and flipping the script while blaming the victims just watch these guys in action. Makes you want to puke.

            And here’s the scary part guys, it’s the Dick Fuld types of the world who run the world. Comforting isn’t it – NOT.

            If anybody is interested in seeing what actually went down with Lehmans watch a movie called Margin Call – it’s a very good depiction. Another movie called The Big Short shows the total greed and corruption of Wall St. If you want a real horror story just watch reality, all the congressional hearings that went on after the collapse. No that’s the real terror of the situation when you see how frustrated the congressional reps get and how they have to just let these guys walk. It’s a big eye opener.

    2. Andy/Lucy,

      Perhaps it needs to be looked at in another way. Bullies are a result of many causes, one of the most predominant is emotional deprivation not necessarily abuse in all cases. That would work out along the lines of overcompensation. If that child’s needs were not adequately met by the parents, who did not necessarily abuse but were themselves emotionally unavailable themselves, this child is not going to get the proper nurture to feel secure and safe in it’s environment add further to that maybe the environment itself is war torn. Through no fault of their own due to their own parents being of the same parenting style the stigma continues down the line. It becomes a form of generational sin or generational bullying.

      In the case of Tom Sheridan growing up in Ireland was no easy task. The Irish are a tough breed and they are tough for a reason. The Irish are far from stupid and the alleged religious wars were actually far from it. It was a battle against imperialism under the guise of a politically correct label. The Irish have been fighting for their sovereignty for years. Children where treated harshly and brutally. Ireland had a completely different cultural background to that of the US. This also needs to be considered and what is relevant in Ireland may not apply to other geographical locations.

      There are no black or white boxes in the formation of the CD. There are many different considerations that need to be taken into account. One thing that does seem to correlate and is a common denominator to all at this point in time is – if a child does not complete object relations successfully then they fail to separate from the maternal figure. Therefore they do not see their parent/s or anybody else for that matter as a separate entity to themselves, with their own likes, dislikes and unique qualities. They identify everything and everyone else as nothing but an extension of themselves there to either supply or frustrate them in getting their needs met. Dr Gabor Mate has made this connection in addicts. What is narcissism at the end of the day – an addiction to supply.

      Andy you have every right to your own opinion and I respect that. The danger is in taking one model and applying it across the board. This is the peril of anything main stream dictates. It takes one model and applies it globally. The only thing that can really be applied globally is object relations, and the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs. Certain stages in early childhood development must be achieved if that child is going to grow within a secure familial setting and feel safe. If not of course they are going to have issues, identity issues and 99.9% of the time, low self esteem. How can you have high self esteem if you don’t feel safe and you are in a hightened state of anxiety most of the time? Your fight/lfight/freeze is on high alert – you become easily triggered and adrenalized.

      Much new material is unfolding each and every day. It’s wise to heed it even if it at first seems irrelevant. I’ve often struggled with some information initially until the proverbial penny drops. It pays to stay the course and listen no matter what school of thought they come from. People do not all see things in the same light. Each of us have different filters and locus of attention. Dr Mate is not a psychologist or a psychiatrist, he’s a physician who specializes in addiction. Why hasn’t main stream psychiatry picked up that very important correlation? Because it takes them 12 years to form a document with no answers only labels, known as the DSM – the psychiatrist’s Bible. Well life goes on. Each year many new developments are made known and intelligent people are finding their own answers.

      At this stage of the game th DSM is still classifying Dependent and Co-Dependent Personality Disorders in Type A – they should have moved them over to Type B – they are vulnerable narcs. What Varknin has discovered because I don’t see it covered anywhere else is the Counter Dependent person. This is the mid ranger of HD Tudor. My ex best friend is one, her behavior is exactly as explained by Varknin. Further having known her full history, she scored 26 on the PCL. That’s 4 points shy of psychopathic. Great!

      So if these people fail to complete object relations and see everybody as nothing more than extensions of themselves; who are there to supply or frustrate them with getting their needs met, then how can they possibly have high self esteem? This is psychosis at it’s finest. I believe this is the point Sheridan was trying to make Andy. It’s not a wise choice to reject something purely on face value. I’ve learned more in one year than I did in studying psychology for 3 and many link to information have been provided by you guys.

      Andy – Lash is entirely different kettle of fish, having studied his work I disagree on your assessment, however, you are perfectly entitled to it. For nearly 2K years now people still believe a burning bush spoke to Moses, a snake caused sin and Eve was made from Adam’s rib yet people think aliens or cosmic predators are “out there”. Try walking into a psychiatrists office now and telling them something along those lines? LOL

      In the words of Fox Mulder “the truth is out there”…………………and truth is often stranger than fiction.

      There is a principle which is the bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. This is the principle of contempt prior to examination – Archdeacon William Paley, D.D. 1743-1805

      1. Eudoxia,

        I do agree with one point completely. There will be strong cultural factor to whether bully is predominantly a chicken with armour or bully is predominantly bully because he has too high self-esteem and he choose to be.
        So, different people can have different perception about the typical cause, even if all those people unanimously agree on the underlying science.

        True. Psychology is one of the latest field, much more than advance medical science. So, there are bound to be significant differences, that probably will take decades to sort out.

        Maybe later I will build more understanding. But, for now, I am quite a no-mercy trigger-happy guy… and feel that though I was usually right, but have been wrong on occasions.

        1. Andy – it’s a huge learning curve and we’ve all been wrong on occasions. The critical point is we have to know and learn how to deal with these people – regardless of how they are made or born. When I first came here I was certain psychopaths were born (in all honesty that type probably still are) but others possibly aren’t and that is becoming the case from where I sit today. I was trigger happy too when I first turned up raw from constant attacks of these arch enemies of humanity.

          Andy in all honesty I don’t from my close personal encounters with them, consider they have high self esteem at all, I think it’s the Mask – it’s all for show. I personally really think we need to be loved and feel secure in our respective environments in order to have real self esteem. We have to love the skin we’re in and feel confident about who we are even if we have nothing. We have to have respect for ourselves and respect for others.

          If we have self esteem and feel comfortable in the skin we’re in, we don’t feel threatened by those who disagree with us or who are different to us. Bullies always feel threatened, they identify with their construct not who they really are. How can a construct have high self esteem, when it’s not real?

          I know the daughter I have is not who she professes to be despite her demeanor. She comes across as confident, aware and awesome but she is not. My son on the other hand does not have to strut around and puff himself up like a Peacock, plastering his successes all over Facebook while trying to convince people how awesome he is.

          His true friends and family (who also have self esteem) know how awesome he is and therein lies the difference. He has real self esteem she has none. Nor does he bully the family or try to rip off other peoples inheritances or take control of their lives and sit as judge, jury and executioner over others for not agreeing with their reality. Nor does he need to show off, while blatantly lying to, and gaslighting others. Not to mention and, in conjunction with, having to prove he’s bigger, smarter, brighter, shinier and better than everybody else at the same time – all at other family members’ expense. Now that is what I consider grandiose narcissism at best.

          He accepts people for who they are, not for who they profess to be. He loves them for who they are and understands his own self worth. My son has self esteem my daughter has none whatsoever.

          1. Eudoxia,

            In my opinion, it is a risky to assume a bully lacks self-esteem, or a grandiose narcissist is just wearing a mask. Even riskier to assume that one can somehow outshout or expose them and they will crawl back to their hiding place.

            One must identify the source of someones narcissism, and then deal with them accordingly. There is a massive difference between a bully who really is a chicken that pretends to have full body armour, and a bully who knows that he is top dog and has right over all the chickens of the world as well as chickens pretending to be bullies.

            A top dog bully who does not kill you, it is not because he cannot, it just that it is not worth the risk.

          2. Andy, Eudox,

            Great conversation. Andy, I agree with your statement below, I also agree with many of the things Eudox says. The point is almost repeatedly like Dr. Simon says: “They know what they are doing and don’t care.” The ones I have known all my life and believe me you get to know them, are full of themselves. There problem isn’t they lack self esteem they over esteem themselves.

            Two people I know that had their “Come to Jesus Moment” have repeatedly told me, they never lack self esteem, they felt they were special. Now that they have metamorphosed from their narcissism they admit how “special” they always believed they were.

            Eudox, you bring up many good points and I agree in respect to narcissism being an addiction of sorts to oneself. It is a choice to be and act the way the CD do, they knowingly do it. I would be cautious and careful with accepting everything Dr. Mate says,.

            In personality disorders there are many factors to weigh. We also, have societal boundaries, rules and so-forth, that need to be factored in and these boundaries the CDN knows well. The CD choose carefully which boundaries they will cross to obtain their means. If a boundary goes against their grain or moral standard lets say, they can hold out for a very long time for the right opportunity.

            There are so many variables at play in trying to delve into ones psyche and identify their specific CD. We can overthink many of the CDMNSP and get lost in trying to find the answer. In simplicity, the work and experience Dr. Simon has done over the years, in my estimation, answers questions that can easily get caught in a loop of unending questions.

  6. An interesting thing happened during the deposition of my divorce last week. SB, the disbarred attorney, was representing himself and deposed me and my attorney deposed him. Yep, he sure did . . . .
    I cannot remember how this came about, but he shouted, red faced, “She’s crazy! She’s nuts! Look at her! Says I use prostitutes and sell weed! She’s schizophrenic! It runs in her family!” He looked nuts saying it. Everyone remained quiet. Then my attorney says, “Are you a medical doctor?” It was bizarre. He tried to convince the court reporter and my attorney that I’m nuts. There were only four of us in the room. I think it’s part of his defense that I make things up because I’m crazy.
    Several times he outright insulted my attorney, was bullyish and disrespectful. He has a hatred for women, and she’s a young lawyer with 7 years experience. He shouts at her “You, with your seven years experience!” She was ticked, to say the least. She and I had to leave the room before she blew her fuse. He, who is disbarred, insults her. We came out of the room and the staff surrounded us. Everyone asked if I was ok. I realize I’m so used to being attacked and verbally abused that it did not even phase me. Once I had the chance to look him in the eye and say my piece, all nerves were calm. It’s when I cannot say my piece that I become unraveled.
    She caught him in six lies. I caught him in more.
    I’m glad she saw firsthand the emotions/verbal abuse. The evasiveness of why I, as a wife, could not get straight answers and was blind-sided by his secret life. I could never get a real answer. I have learned my lesson through him of how to detect shady persons.

    1. Lucy please wonderful lady. I have found this quote for you

      “Since [narcissists] deep down, feel themselves to be faultless, it is inevitable that when they are in conflict with the world they will invariably perceive the conflict as the world’s fault. Since they must deny their own badness, they must perceive others as bad. They project their own evil onto the world. They never think of themselves as evil, on the other hand, they consequently see much evil in others.”
      ― M. Scott Peck

      1. I still believe he knows he’s lying about me and that he does not want to pay the consequences of his actions. His defenses are thought out beforehand as a coverup of him. And he truly does despise me. He thinks I’m a useless human being. I don’t care what he thinks of me. I just want out of this divorce what I feel is rightly mine.

      2. Joey
        That makes aot of sense to me. What a waste of a life to live the way they do. They can never have true joy.

    2. Lucy,

      That bodes well for you.

      I am not sure, and legal practice may be different, but deposition does not carry same weight during trial. But, if his outburst was real, then I am sure he will get ticked off again.

      1. Andy
        Here the deposition was used for discovery purposes and it can only be used in court for impeachment purposes.

        1. Lucy,

          Your lawyer just needs to question SB. Once things get going in the courtroom, SB will act the same way. See, he can’t stand the fact anyone has the right to question him. At this point SB is quite delusional and will get more so.

          SB believes his own lies and will project, accuse you of what he has done. Believe me, it will be the same thing in court as the deposition and worse. SB will be in front of the judge and the lies he tells himself, SB will repeat to the Judge. Well done!!!!!!!

    3. Top job! Of course he’s going to insult her, she can’t tread on his toes! He’s the smartest, best and brightest in the courtroom! He’s the golden boy of perfection, a shining God of goodness -his shit doesn’t stink! Goodness Lucy don’t you know that by now!!! Hasn’t he shown you over the years his superiority, his omnipotence! -does a Dick Darstardly- hahahahahaha

      When they are reminded their shit does stink boy do they blow a fuse – hopefully next time it will be a gasket and his head will crack and all this black slime will ooze out. That’s who he really is. His true self will be revealed!

      Well done high 5! If you don’t know who Dick Dardardly is just google him, he’s a famous villian and Muttley was his flying monkey.

        1. Lucy,
          Yup, SB is on collision course, get your refreshments and sit back for the show of your life. The less you say, the less engaged, and a poker face will be perfect a twitch of the nose, you know like you have an itch will make him crazy. When he questions you take all the time in the world, it will piss him off. Peter Pan will rage because he is not in control of the show and you.

          Its to bad you can’t film it, you’d make a bundle.

          1. Lucy,

            I bet they do, but you have all the info in your head, just like me. Another thing, considering the nature and private material records produced in your case and to protect your privacy, at the end of the trial have your attorney request the Judge to have your case sealed. This way only you, your attorneys and SB have access to the case. I had my case sealed, yours should be too.

  7. Andy/BTOV

    BTOV first you said “There problem isn’t they lack self esteem they over esteem themselves.
    Two people I know that had their “Come to Jesus Moment” have repeatedly told me, they never lack self esteem, they felt they were special. Now that they have metamorphosed from their narcissism they admit how “special” they always believed they were”.

    The do over esteem – their construct/ego. It’s not self esteem it’s delusions of grandeur. Appearing to have high self esteem is not necessarily having high self esteem it’s just the appearance of having it. It’s all a con job. It isn’t authentic self esteem – it’s ego fixation.

    I appreciate Dr Mate’s work and he is identifying a lot of issues in society today. The narcs addiction isn’t “addiction of sorts to oneself” – it’s the addiction to receiving acknowledgement from others that validate the narcs construct or sense of self. It requires validation because it is not real. It is a confabulated persona.

    I’ll stick to this important factor. A person who has healthy self esteem does not require validation, flattery or acknowledgement of self. They know who they are and they know their inherent self worth. For it is their true self.

    A false self – a construct requires constant validation of itself, they require this type of adulation out of necessity to survive.

    You deny them this and they will act no different to how a desperate junkie would if you were to take his stash / deny him his addiction. He would stab out your eyes, poke hot needles in your liver and eviscerate you! Without one shred of hesitation. OK I know that sounds a bit severe but it’s what our respective CD’s have done to us emotionally when we put them into injury by denying them supply.

    Andy thank for your reply. We are on the Mobius Strip now so please here me out – I understand where you are coming from. From where I stand (which is on the other side) some top dog bullies are CDMNSP the lessors are flying monkeys and none of them have self esteem. The top dog has an over inflated sense of ITSELF not the “self” and demonstrates over confidence when in reality this is just entitlement disguised. They are psychotic and of course they will kill you as sure as the sun rises every morning. That’s because they identify with the construct. That’s the problem, the construct is not who they really are.

    For argument’s sake. A top dog in prison let’s say a guy done for multiple murder. That guy is a murderer, he’s committed murder making him a legitimate murderer in real life that part is real it exists – that’s a reality. That isn’t the construct I’m talking about. Say for argument’s sake his victims where his wife and two kids. Why did he kill them? Did Bob the builder kill them or did Bob the murderer kill them?

    Let’s take a closer look shall we? Wendy leaves Bill with his two kids. Bill is a cold, callous, cruel bastard with a view that might makes right. He’s a very successful builder but he’s also Spath. He needs Wendy and the kids to assist Bill to maintain the appearance of being a caring, considerate, loyal, dedicated, self righteous, fine upstanding family man and respectable businessman (which he isn’t). All the while at work he claims how sick, and neurotic his wife is and how much he loves her and how worried he is about her etc etc in case any of his own behavior ever got out.

    Wendy just knows he’s a bastard she doesn’t understand how CD work; he’s mistreated and abused her and the kids for years. However, she never complains about this and maintains appearances of the happy family. But she’s had enough. She decides to leave Bill and does so when he’s not home, she packs them up and off she goes.

    Bill has an important function next week, he needs them to hold has arm to maintain his persona of loving, devoted husband and father. He’s got politicians and clergy coming to the launch of his new housing project, the media will be there he needs their backing! He needs the happy family man persona to pull it off. He’s outraged this bitch could leave him like this! How dare she how dare she SHOW HIM UP and make him look like a failure in front of the VIPS – SHE MUST PAY!!! – oops Wendy’s rocked the wrong cradle too hard.

    Bill tracks her down and murders her and the two kids. He makes it look like a murder/suicide and leaves a note he made Wendy write out while he held a gun to the youngest child’s head all the while Wendy pleading with him to not do this. He does it anyway in cold blood. While this gruesome find is discovered he has covered his tracks carefully.

    At the launch, he plays the devastated bereaved husband and father, he puts up such a good performance the launch is a huge success! You could imagine the heroic headlines of bravery and strength shown in light of such grave tragedy.

    Do you really think Bill has self esteem? He’s a bleeding coward. He’s not just a coward he’s a moral coward. Being a cold blooded murder is not having self esteem. He’s a cold blooded murder. A person with true self esteem does not have to murder their entire family to prove a point.

    I do see where you are coming from Andy and I can see BTOVs point of “over esteemed” as well. I think what is being referred to here is an over inflated sense of self worth. In the words of GI Gurdjieff “puffed up full of his own self importance” Within the realm of my understanding it is not true self esteem – it’s the opposite. Not that they have poor self esteem it’s something else entirely. If that makes sense.

    1. Eudoxia,

      I think what you are trying to say is as follows, rephrasing your sentence in my words:
      Some bullies are top dog bullies. Their “self” is unhinged. They are full of esteem, but since “self” is unhinged, so they have zero self-esteem.
      Other lessor bullies also have zero self-esteem. Their “self” is not unhinged, but they only pretend to be full of esteem when they have none. So, they have zero/low self-esteem.

      It appears to be circular reasoning.

      Lets assume one is aware of self-, and his esteem is 0, so 0 self-esteem.
      Lets assume one is not aware of self-, and his esteem is infinite, but since he doesn’t know self-, so 0 self-esteem.

      My problem with above reasoning is that if I keep on changing the meaning, then I can make anything mean anything, or nothing mean anything, or anything mean nothing.

      Another example, “… some top dog bullies are CDMNSP the lessors are flying monkeys and none of them have self esteem.”
      My understanding of flying monkey is as follows: they are wide eyed zombies, they believe whatever wild stories they are told by the evil one, and they all fly toward the target and screech around target till target either collapse to ground from attack or takes out a shotgun.
      Whereas you seem to imply a vastly different meaning.

      I think we are defining the words differently. Hence the disagreement, even though our understanding of underlying concept may be same.

      1. Andy – I think I know what you mean and I definitely think we are in agreement and yes I think it a matter of the meaning of words.
        My main point I suppose was the narc or bully of course esteem’s his construct but it’s not the real person.

        Shit that was simple LOL

        Cheers Andy

        1. Yep. Narc or bully is not average Joe… a normal real human, sometime aloof but reasonably social, bit of defects but mostly harmless. 🙂

  8. So what do you think of this? My special SB is a narc. He has plotted coverups for his misdeeds. When the story came out in the local newspaper about the circumstances surrounding his disbarment, he sobbed. He even talked of harming himself soon after. That day he told my son “I won’t be around here much longer.” He sobbed not for his misdeeds and how his acts harmed others, but he cried because now the public would be informed of it. He was outed. He tried so hard to cover it up.
    Low self esteem or not? I don’t think it matters. His mask was yanked off.

    1. Lucy they are pathetic aren’t they. A person with high self esteem, or rather I prefer the word healthy steam esteem would not put on a sob story in order to solicit pity. Someone with healthy self esteem does not require pity nor would do anything that would bring resentment, guilt or shame into their life.

      From what I have personally witnessed with these assholes. When they know they have been caught red handed doing something or cornered. Aside from the usual lie, cheat, scheme, connive and/or throw someone else under a bus to take the heat. They’ll go immediately into victim mode and have a pity party in hope other’s will feel sorry for them. They are not crying for their misdeeds, they are just soliciting pity because they got caught.

      You’re on the home straight now Lucy, soon enough you won’t ever have to lay eyes on the SOB again. The court room scene was priceless! Just keep ripping that mask off.

      1. I think we are talking about two different ethtical type of self esteem. SB still has his distorted self esteem, SB, was having a well thought out pity party. Poor me, look was done to me, boo hoo, I lost everything, they lied about me, the secretary set me up………. I lost everything, feel sorry for me, pity party, I am depressed, (no doubt SB is depressed, he is not getting his way) feel sorry for me, I have nothing to live for.

        BS—– look at all the arrogant trouble the jerk caused, SB didn’t fess up or make amends SB filled his supply banks slipping and sliding in the gutter. You can call it false self esteem just like the mask is false/real/illusion, make no buts about it, the CD will protect this false self, esteem which is pride, false pride, whatever, you want to call it at all costs. No matter what kind of fool he makes out of himself SB will protect his Idol and that is himself.

        1. BTOV/Lucy

          Exactly distorted self esteem is lording it all over the false image of himself. His idol of which he exhorts others to worship or seek pitty for itself oh poor me!!!!!!!!!! -feigns fainting- tsk tsk truly pathetic.

          Now false self esteem I can agree with. It’s a shame they only threaten to do themselves in and don’t complete it. Going back to what we were talking about before it would be interesting to see just how many people do as a result of abuse suffered at the hands of these SBs.

          1. Eudox,
            Whenever, you talk with someone and they mention a suicide, I am sure you can subtly ask some questions. Under the circumstances many are glad someone will listen. I have brought this up several times as I know of several cases. Think back in time, having the knowledge you have today, having heard of a suicide in the past, you may now put two and two together.

            Perhaps, Joey can add a little more as he was talking about what happened with bobby.

          2. his suffering was real. His world crashed and he could not handle the public knowing what happened. I had only seen him sob once before. the only person he would talk to was me. He shut out his friends who reached out to him. He screwed me over royally but at the same time I was his only block. That put me in a delicate position. I’m still human and have empathy for a human suffering. As soon as he got back on his feet though I left. And he got up off the ground and has been kicking the hell out of me ever since.

          3. I’d had thoughts of ending it during periods of his extreme a use through the court system. It had me thinking there is no way outbid this legal nightmare with him. I’d never harm myself, but the extreme stress certainly has brought on those thought.

          4. These SBs can take down the strongest and healthiest of us. Because they can be relentless and such a burden. They never stop!

    2. There is a very different kind of depression however; the shame-rage spiral of the narcissist who reacts to failure with other-directed, humiliated fury.

      ” Narcissists can have violent mood swings as they are alternately inflated and deflated, puffed up by hubris, or crushed by a collision with reality that cracks open a cauldron of shame

      The above quotes are taken from a report on Andreas Lubitz who flew a plane with 149 other people into a mountain
      He was a malignant narcissist,

      Lucy I do not wish to teach you to suck the so called egg ” Please take care”

      1. That talk of Bushman’s was brilliant Joey. I just watched it then, wish I’d watched it before! Yes healthy self esteem “I’m ok”

        CD can’t handle shame, they squashed their core self down a long time ago. They rage at the world. Because they can’t deal with their core being they project it onto others. That’s the part we get stuck with. While we strive to be reasonable and caring people they project all their vileness onto us and then try to hold us to account for THEIR SINS! They slime us. That’s what makes it so very disgusting. They are soul rapists and it’s what makes them all cowards.

        1. They are soul rapists and it’s what makes them all cowards.

          Because they cannot bear the pain of their own conscience, they maintain an image of being FAULTLESS. That is how they see themselves.
          Just a faultless being. They have No intention of Ever Being Good;
          Just APPEARING TO BE GOOD. They are VERY WILLFULL and Aggressive.
          May be that is how someone who has a genetic bias can potentially become narcissistic by being naturally willfull and aggrressive

          1. Joey yes FAULTLESS and we get to wear it all. Why would they be good when it’s easier for someone else to take the bullet? And they just don’t stop. The worse problem is we will keep taking it until we say enough. Then we do and they end up gone and we are left covered in slime.

            Here is a special song Joey – I played it one night after I was on a train going to work and a suicide happened (it was a girl). That was in the morning and I came home that night and played this song. It’s a very dark place they are in. I’ve been there before.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=283OY2DW6Go

          1. Eddie Vedder – Guaranteed

            https://youtu.be/Mwx3RvDWvDM

            This piece of music comes from the film INTO THE WILD. The journy of Christopher Mccandless. Who was a victim of a abusive upbring.
            If you watch the film you will see in the opening seens what I mean.
            His last entry in his diary was 17th Aug 1992. This has a great deal of significance for me, I know exactly were I was on this date.

            Christopher Mccandless was a true victim of THE PEOPLE OF THE LIE.

          2. They do. Here’s a good one!

            I admit I have always harboured an self exaggerated view of my own self importance – or to put it bluntly, I fancied myself as a God or some type of economic reformer (each with his General Theory), or, even better a scientist like Einstein (reflexivity sounds like relativity). ……………………….George Soros – The Alchemy of Finance

          3. Thanks for that Joey, your last post re Chris McCandless has more significance for me than you could ever possibly know. I watched that movie with my ex CD friend and she saw something totally different to what I saw. She was at a loss as to understand how I could say he found peace with the world. They have no connection to anything of a deeply spiritual nature.

            The song Hard Sun was what I wanted to play at Mum’s funeral service right at the end. My CD daughter while she took it did not play it. Another little dig and her last one at that. I have not seen or heard from her since then and what I have heard is nothing that comes as any surprise. That song has special importance for me and my relationship with my own mother and it was not honored.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8NPNKZ9jB0

            I have watched Into the Wild probably half a dozen times. That last photograph of Chris told me he was a man who found peace with his soul and the world. It doesn’t matter when we leave this plane of existence other than to be at peace with ourselves and find our authentic self and I believe Chris McCandless did just that. He renounced the world of material illusion. I think it the ultimate journey and in our own ways we are all on it.

  9. BOTV
    I meant they want in the courtroom during the hearing, just to watch the show
    That’s a good idea to have it sealed.

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