Malignant Narcissism

With all the information available about narcissism and narcissistic personalities, chances are you’ve heard the term “malignant narcissism.” But exactly what the term means and why a certain kind of narcissism warrants such a special descriptor is not very clear to many. And while it’s hard to imagine any kind of narcissism that’s completely “benign,” it’s worth understanding why the particular brand of narcissism professionals call “malignant,” is cause for grave concern whenever it’s present to any significant degree in an someone’s personality structure.

The term narcissism has been around for a long time and is derived from the mythical character Narcissus, who, as the ancient Greek story goes, was a strikingly handsome and gifted young man (and who obviously knew it!) who was not at all phased by the relentless amorous advances of a nymph but instead fell head over heels in love with his own reflection as he gazed upon it in a pool of water. Narcissus, it seemed, found all he’d ever dreamed of in perfect complement to himself in himself.  Narcissism is, therefore, not the healthy love of self that leads to adaptive self-protection and care but rather the abnormal and unhealthily haughty perception of oneself as such an idol that one has no real need for anyone else.

Classical psychological paradigms conceptualized narcissistic individuals as necessarily insecure individuals who unconsciously compensated for their underlying low self-esteem with their braggadocio.  Today we know that although there are indeed some “neurotic” narcissists, there are also many more vain and self-centered folks who really believe in their superiority through and through.  Such individuals are far more character-disordered than they are neurotic and their inflated views of themselves are not an anxious compensation but rather a sincere belief.  And they can be a monumental challenge to deal with, work with, and live with.

Narcissism is common during our early stages of growth.  But most of us eventually grow to develop a healthier balance of perspective with respect to our regard for ourselves versus our regard for and need of others.  When a person enters adulthood retaining the narcissistic tendencies they had as a child, there’s bound to be lots of trouble in their relationships.

Narcissism becomes particularly “malignant” (i.e. malevolent, dangerous, harmful, incurable) when it goes beyond mere vanity and excessive self-focus. Malignant narcissists not only see themselves as superior to others but believe in their superiority to the degree that they view others as relatively worthless, expendable, and justifiably exploitable.  This type of narcissism is a defining characteristic of psychopathy/sociopathy and is rooted in an individual’s deficient capacity for empathy.  It’s almost impossible for a person with such shallow feelings and such haughtiness to really care about others or to form a conscience with any of the qualities we typically associate with a humane attitude, which is why most researchers and thinkers on the topic of psychopathy think of psychopaths as individuals without a conscience altogether.

I’ve posted several times before on the issues of narcissism and malignant narcissism (see, for example:  Psychopathy and Sociopathy, and Malignant Narcissism:  At the Core of Psychopathy).  And of course, I explore the topics in all my books, In Sheep’s Clothing, Character Disturbance, and The Judas Syndrome.  But in the upcoming brief series of articles, I’m going to examine narcissism from some new angles and in some unusual depth, using examples from case histories to illustrate not only how detrimental to one’s personality formation this trait can be but also how much damage it’s capable of inflicting in relationships when it reaches malignant proportions.  Stay tuned.


217 thoughts on “Malignant Narcissism

  1. Dr. Simon, Would you please post something regarding your professional opinion about the potential destruction and damage that Covert Manipulators and/ or Covert Aggressives can inflict on a person/ victim without raising a hand in violence. I believe Laura asked a question a week or two ago, wanting to know if it is possible to cause damage to someone without the presence of overt violence and tangible abuse.

    I for one know that damage I have sustained, some of it even impossible to put into words seemingly. I’m wondering how you would explain this phenomenon, it’s clearly something that people who have not been on the receiving end of this type of heinous abuse can not understand.

    1. Puddle,
      I know exactly what you’re referring to! That type of abuser is called the Water Torturer (as per author, Lundy Bancroft). I wish Bancroft and Dr. Simon would collaborate on a book or speaking engagements to share their remarkable insights. I have read a great deal lately about this type of torment at the hands of the Covert Malignant Narcissist, and there are many who agree that they cause PTSD in their victims, mostly due to the mind games and brainwashing they use to break down and control their victims. I know from personal experience that I DON’T know the depth of my damage. The ex (the abuser)was married before, and he was so physically violent with his 1st wife that he disabled her after fracturing her spine by kicking her with his steel-toed boots. Along comes naïve me, who never was physically abused to that egregious degree. Why?Because my abuser was too smart to be physically violent (overt) because he might get into trouble, so he changed his strategy and attacked me emotionally, psychologically and financially. I hear the ex (the abuser) speak to my daughter on the phone, and it disturbs an angers me to no end to hear the manipulative tactics he uses on her that were used on me for 20 years. You’re so right when you said people who have not experienced this type of heinous abuse cannot understand. Our culture and family courts need to stop assuming abuse is only outward injuries.

      1. Jodi, Been there. Spathtardx was arrested for DV many years ago and apparently learned his lesson and tweaked his tactics by the time we met. Never mind that he was not a) honest and forthright about this incident or about having this or any other of his “issues”
        b) actually LIED about and minimized the incident when the subject finally did come up. and c)……after I told him once that he was hurting me so deeply that he might as well hit me……….his response was “what? do you think I’m stupid”?? I was so lost at that time I didn’t even process the actual significance of what he was saying! Just another thing swept under the rug and in Danny’s words…..another unfinished book thrown to the floor and kicked across the room.
        When involved with these losers, to me it’s like you have to have a whole other rule book, dictionary and thesaurus, only you don’t even know it and will not know it until it’s too late.

        1. Thank you for putting into words what I am realizing- a whole different rule book. Yes! I thought heartfelt honesty was what we all want? Not.

        2. Because I grew up with a psychopathic brother and malignant narcissist I know them inside out and know how to destroy them. I was involved with a couple later in adult life but learned quickly as I was familiar with what they do! They try to destroy and are manipulative and twisted to an unbelievable degree. One I was with even tried to copyright I got him so confused. I had therapy for fifteen years due to the damage but believe me when I say I now know their every move.

          Any questions Please ask. I am now trained specialist in this area. Thank goodness.

          Best wishes

          1. While I appreciate your no doubt valuable insight I imagine you were never covertly charmed by Ted Bundy or counselled over the phone by him when you rang a rape crisis line. Or stood face to face with the president of a Bikie Club who told you to F@&$$ off. Each Psychopath is a unique combination of elements, drives, background, skills, ignorances and abilities. One can never put them in a box and say ‘there…done and dusted, I’ve got their number’, in my opinion.

          2. Ok, Beth Morgan, you say you “know how to destroy them”. Why don’t you tell us outright?

          3. Hi J, still waiting for the book! I was a cheapskate and went for the free shipping option so it’s my own fault. Anyway, I thought I might add here that in relation to destroying psychopaths…..Denial….is not a river in Egypt! lol.

          4. Hello,
            I would love to have a conversation with you on this subject….
            Really do.

          5. Beth Morgan, Im wondering if I can email you? I need to describe my relationship, and find out if I am dealing with a malignant narcissist. I suspect it, but Im so confused I don’t know what Im dealing with.

            EDITOR’S NOTE: Folks wishing to engage in direct email exchanges should carefully weigh the wisdom of doing so and then make their wishes known to me directly via the “contact” feature on the blog and I will secure permission from both parties as they contact me through the back channel and provide the information to both.

          6. So, Beth Morgan, if you really “know how to destroy them”, why don’t you tell us outright publicly? Looks like stringing us along to me.

          7. I dont know how to ask this question. But my son is dating a girl who exhibits some of the traits of a malignant narcissistic. She is quite charming often, but she also lies and even though we know she is lying she is very convincing. Then she glazes over and switches into a person the total opposite of charming. Very scary. However her parents work for the court system and they protect her in her wrong doing. She is one of hte scarriest people I have ever met; she is also one of the smartest people I have ever met, she is also the most charming person I have ever met. But she is the mother of three of my grandchildren. I am afraid for them.

          8. That anyone thinks they can destroy a narcissist shows they might either be a narcissist or are still trying to cope. The simple truth is that you cannot destroy them because you and nothing you do matters. They will rationalize everything, blame as needed and find new sources to fill their needs or news ways to get them met. Their resourcefulness is second to none. They cannot be hurt. They pretend to hurt but they always feel superior to everyone they might have been hurt by. I have watched this in my mother and to some degree my brother for five decades.

            There is only one solution… acknowledge what they are and remind yourself repeatedly of this. Recognizing they cannot and do not care or live is key. Accept this. And remember that everything they say and do is for themselves. There is always an agenda, even if it is not clear to you. Ask yourself what they gain from this. Their actions are to make themselves feel good. This is accomplished by many means that are to vast to list. What you have to do is ask yourself what the possible benefit could be to them. What would they gain? Attention? Support? Sympathy? Allies? Status? Vindication? Etc. Then you also have to see if it is short term or long term. Narcissists are good at long cons. They like to establish stories that they can use to vindicate them from future actions. Often they do something that at face value there seems to be no gain but months or years later many of those things have turned people to their side. It is all very strategic.

            The one thing that helps us is to be emotionally self reliant meaning you have detached from them and fully realize they offer you nothing and you have come to realize, feel and believe your value as a person. This is the way to mitigate the damage they do. It does not make you immune because you are human and you do feel, but putting all I have write here together, you have the tools you need to not be their victims and to hold your own against them.

            Remember, you survived a narcissist. This is something to honor in yourself because that you survived this specific insudeous type of abuse shows how strong you are. I would argue that it is the worst type of abuse there is. It is literally the obliteration of you as a person from the minute you crossed paths with them. You survived that. Recovering is within your grasp and never falling prey to them again is as well.

          9. Ariel- I’m replying to you. You have the best answer so far. What do they have to offer? Nothing. He was full of false promises from day 1. From short term promiwe to long, nothing fullfilled. He lost my car key and told me I’ll replace it when I get paid…tured out he wqasn’t with the o anymore, the ar ke never has been replaced which he lost..or stole? Don’t people usually turn in lost items? We searched the place when he realized it was gone-he searched the mens bathroom where he thought he lost it sniffing cocaine. The next morning we went in before it opened I searched everywhere, no key. no one turned in a key, he had to have stolen it…why? I don’t know. I had never met one of these people and I studied psychology! Looking back he did a ton of mimicking via text and email. I cannot put it into words and am struggling 1 year later. He stole my identity and I fell in love with myself and he projected to me every single thing he thought I wanted to hear. He was insecure about not going to college, no one he knew went. So he would talk up how hard he works and he will build this amazing life for us. He would look me straight in the eye and say “I’m so glad we met” “this is a dream” “i’ve never had this connection” and I bought it all. I was hooked, in love and addicted. He very much set me up from day 1. I didn’t meet many of his friends, however I noticed many of his friends had wronged him and I was hating people I had never met!? He was doing the same thing to me. I was the crazy ex, so when things went down, if I acted out like wtf is going on? I looked crazy? There were a few real clues I let slide because I loved him. One-had a great night, drinks , chat, fun. I get in my car to leave, the window is cracked, he is mad I am leaving but I need to get home it’s late. I crack the window and say “I love you” and he out of now where punches the window so hard it didn’t break but hit my face b/c I was leaning out for a kiss. I thought my nose was broken. He was not letting me walk away. I said this is done. I received the most human like emails and texts he ever sent, I actually felt sorry for him. I now know he wanted to ditch me he would be damned if I left him. Well after another violent incident I did leave. He called for months and months; called a family member, said who knows what I cut them off how can you trust your own family to talk to some psycho on the phone for an hour? A yeah passed and as me, a normal human I started to forgive and was not sure if he was sick, lost, insecure, abused as a child, or what. We met for drinks 4 times total in the last year and he claims to be single, somehow the sparkly shirt in his car says otherwise….they move on so quick it’s gut wrenching. Always a buddy so and so likes to play tricks on me and leave weird things in my car. Right. So he saw me as a conquest, he wanted to have sex with me again and I met him to talk of a future. There’s always an excuse why I can’t come over to his place. His roomies, etc, etc. What recently appeared on FB is a picture of him or a twin I don’t know about with another girl while him and I were together. Jaw drop. To make it even more obvious, he is hiding most of his head behind hers..but I know his face, and another weird thing-they morph into multiple people. He always only wore certain shirts around me. On one of our meetings where he was “single” I noticed a new shirt. Well, he’s wearing it in the picture with his other gf! I also ran into him at a local hangout and his whole outfit was not the guy I know! He had a sparkly shirt, wearing gold chains and rings?? We are not from jersey, in 3 years I had never seen him in jewelry, it was creepy. I suppose he was preying on another vic? I actually gave him sh*t over it, to which he responds I thought it would impress you. They have an answer for everything. We part ways….jan 2015 he sends me an email where he misses me but insults me in 1 sentence. A ploy thank god I did not fall for. Recently I sent him a frendly email sayin hey hope you are well this is the weekend we met 4 years ago, he responds within 5 min and we chat away! On day of chatting, I tell him about some drama that happened at my new complex just small talk. As soon as i try to bring up a picture I received with a man looking identical to him while with me, and with a girl who was not of age at that time… he freaks out and jus stops. Won’t respond to anything. The girl changes her fb profile of the 2 of them since jan 2014 when I was with him, to a different man all together! Hmmm 1.5 years pass, then I mention it and she changes it?I wanted so badly to believe it is a man who just looks like him and you can only see half his face so it could be anyone. How could a late 20s guy be with a HSer? AND, he was calling, texting, harassing my family while with her? Who does that? Let it go if you are with another girl who is so hooked my his claws it’s scary. I’ve read they have a primary spouse or partner to the outside world and then cheat away (I was perfect arm candy) He pumped me up so much I never dreampt he would have stepped out. But I reached out after finding a picture and Instantly I miss the illusion I fell in love with. I say 1 wrong thing and he is 5 days into the silent treatment.A year ago I’d not get out of bed, now I’m more concerned he has fooled this child’s mom-she’s single and probably busy, and I doubt she knows his age. I could write a novel….what I want to know-why do they treat some people like this and others may never see it? I think the smarter you are and more perceptive you catch onto the lies, false promises and weird behavior and they hate to be questioned. My last text to him, in which he said he i miss you my text and call #s are the same call me sometime were his words. I called him…ring ring, no vm, he either blocked me or its a re direct # knowing I’d call, but why ask me to call? My last text is: what did I ever do to you to deserve this but love you? Can you acknowledge me and say goodbye or did you start talking to me again to do this? I am a human being and I’m very confused. Why are they so cruel to the one person people would be blown away that they would? He is good looking yes, but we come from very different upbringings and I think he resents women, and I represent women who had a better life, more opportunities and he hates me? Over a year of being apart he would still want to hurt me? Why? Did he really hold onto his anger for over a year, with a possible new supply and take the opportunity to hurt me? Really?

          10. Oh and he turns everything I told him in small talk against me to hurt me…i’m a loser b/c I told him about some domestic violence that happened that I was proud of helping to stop. Very scary to hear a woman scream NO STOP, etc. Well-He turned that 1 bit of info into I’ma druggy loser in a shitty apt. I’m just going….? What, where does this hate come from!? How do you turn small talk around and make me feel worthless? The freaggin place is like 2500 a month and near the beach and I’m a loser. Why are they like this!?

          11. Hello, I’ve been dealing with a malignant narcissistic psychopath at my job with the Post Office. Her continued abuse caused me to file 17 EEO complaints on for harassment. She wound up getting away with it!!! After that she has harassed me ever since!!! Can you please give me some pointers on how to destroy her continued attacks? I would greatly appreciate it!!!

          12. Juliette,

            In the incident with the biker club president, though, it seems he still gave you an out, even if it was in such an abrasive manner. The bad guy may have any possible motivation, like avoiding possible inconveniences when possible, but at least in those kinds of instances the bad guy lets another person go.

            Not all situations, unfortunately, can be resolved as easily, especially when a bad guy doesn’t want to be ignored and passed by just like that.

          13. I filed for divorce from my covert malignant narcissist. He retaliated by a huge public smear campaign–painting me as violent, erratic, insane with poor judgment. He characterized me in court as lazy, filthy, a horrible parent, stupid and someone who is manipulative and abusive. NONE of that is even remotely true. I am a great mother. I have lots of friends. I have worked 2 jobs much of my life. I put myself through college and grad school. I graduated with a newr perfect GPA while working full time and being on call for work as well. BUT he laid his plan out with expertise. He co-opted many people to believe his lies. He set this up months in advance–he planted seeds and then harvested them when he needed. What he did destroyed me personally and professionally. All of it based on lies. But these types of people are smart and ruthless and it is impossible to predict what lengths they will go to when they need to destroy you. They will fight with everything they have to keep their secret lives from being exposed or believed by others. How do you fight back against them when you share custody and are constantly being covertly attracted and degraded–all under the cover of concern for the children or for your ‘mental illness’. They cover the hatred the kids feel for them by claiming parental alienation. They claim right from the start that you are trying to turn the kid against them and so anything the kids say, feel or report about the other parent is already discredited. There seems to be not rout to getting the truth out about what they do to the ex or the children. HOW does one handle that??

          14. I think I come from a similar family. Wow! you’re trained in it now good for you! They say there is never only one narcissist in a family. Truly, I believe that.

          15. Trying to go no contact with my fiancé but he keeps charming me with words and amazing intimacy. He says he will be more loving to my 6 and 3 year old but I can’t keep bouncing us around. Any tips on how to get the message across we are done and for him to stop contacting me??

          16. Kara,

            You may want to curb your need to respond to him. That will be first step. Be like a stone. There is no need to explain, no need to make him understand you.
            And, when you do have to interact with him, for kids or other reason, be short and crisp.

          17. Beth, how do you destroy them psychologically and emotionally, share it with me. A survivor of a malignant narcissist, he has crossed over to what they say they walk the line of. I need your help. He is charming the police department and his harem. He has no conscience and no empathy and does not love, he is devoid of humanity and the ability to truly love and care for another, he is using many women and men, they have all attempted suicide. I

          18. Please Your knowledge is very useful for me. I moved to another State and did a restraining order to keep my estranged husband malignant narcissist away. I have to meet him in court in few days for the restraining order to be confirmed .i have medical documents of the assaults and injuries. Please what

          19. Jo. I need ur help. I’m just to emotionally exhausted to tell u the nightmare I’m living. Malignant narc stalker x bf. Pure evil. Financial ruin soon if not stopped, no privacy, no help, police denying reports, beaten up by monkeys, and goes on. The hypervigelence stress agoraphobia is literally killing me slowly. Getting security cameras from a company soon but that wont help me when I leave the house. Please help.

        3. So incredibly true. Doesn’t help the many family court, lawyers and judges are narcissist themselves. Nor can the ever understand trying to live in the real world regarding finances, the current job market or the effect of giving up ones career as primary for the birthing of the narcissust children so he can have more supply to abuse. Or how you could ever extricate yourself from such a covert abusive mess and survive emotionally or financially.

          1. Veronica you wrote my story, my experience almost to the finish. My daughter is now under the custody of her MN father and I was completely rewritten as a human and mother by a court system with no evidence. I am going to work to impact change in legislation for childrens’ right to humane treatment. Look for me because I am going to make this happen before I die and I need the support of every victim of a MN on this site and elsewhere. My daughter is going to work for this effort too. What the MDS don’t know is that We Will set our children, or our children’s children free. And there will be no more Columbine or Orlandos. God Bless.

          2. Grateful for suggestion.

            When you go to court, state strictly the facts. Don’t look at him, don’t react to him. You can also go to the Womans Resouce Center or whatever the agency for women is called in your area. Google it, each county has one. On staff they have a legal advocate that will go to court with you and will explain the process to you. They do not give legal advice. Do this right away, smaller communities may have less resources.

            It will cost you just the filing fees, however, the decision to give you the RO is based on the facts you present. There are different types of Restraining Orders too, all depending on the seriousness of the situation.

            If you are afraid to be in the vicinity of this person, when at the courthouse you can always ask a deputy to accompany you.

            I encourage you to keep posting, this a great venue to glean knowledge of what you may be in for.

            God bless you
            Be well and keep safe

        4. Even though many disturbed personalities of a particular type have things in common and I think typology(in general) is extremely helpful in assessing people, I don’t think people are necessarily to be limited to certain types and I agree that every personality, even seemingly similar ones, even every pathological personality-character, even every psychopath, “is a unique combination of elements, drives, background, skills, ignorances and abilities. One can never put them in a box and say ‘there…done and dusted, I’ve got their number’”.

          1. Timothy,
            To my understanding personalities fall into clusters, and many times its difficult to assess/diagnose on layman’s observations, this depends on how many of these symptoms they display, many times they cover their tracks well. Then where do they fit on the continuum. This may take time to assess and being around this individual for sometime to know the degree of their illness.

            Top of the head and initials observations I normally had now are automatic. However, I am cautious and like to wait to make a determination in my mind, many times there can be mitigating factors at play I am not aware of. Otherwise, in agreement.

          2. Timothy,

            The number I’ve got on my CDN is that he will always do the wrong thing – if it involves me. That is just the way it is – every time. It’s and Land of Opposites. What is the right thing to do? Well, he will do the opposite – just to bring me down.

          3. Perhaps it’s too extreme to say ‘never’ then. Though I don’t think every single scourge of earth has the exact same modus operandi.

            It sounds, Lucy, that in your case he’s being all contrarian just to spite you. What you say sounds like it’s fairly accurate in your case.

      2. My mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother were and are covert malignant narcissists. Only by the grace of God did I survive. I can remember wanting to commit suicide at the tender age of six. I have only a very small amount of PTSD left. I went on to marry a covert narcissist and a very angry and abusive covert malignant narcissist. Of course I did this because my mind was still very porous from previous abuse. I divorced both husbands but I still have a mother to deal with and a sister who is just as bad. These are demons that have been put on this earth. Lots and lots of prayers needed. No one understands this kind of mental abuse.

        1. CarrieParrish, Wow………you have been dealt a really nasty hand. To be raised by people so off track, i don’t think the world in general really understands ho much of an impact that can have on a child’s life, how much it sets the stage for all kinds of things in the future.
          I think I took an overdose of some kind of meds from my parents medicine cabinet when I was too young to be able to call it anything but maybe and accident. 3 years old?
          Something you said really get my attention Carrie, “I went on to marry a covert narcissist and a very angry and abusive covert malignant narcissist. Of course I did this because my mind was still very porous from previous abuse.” This is VERY interesting to me. I have heard that drinking and drug use actually creates a hole in the protective energetic aura of a person and leaves them “open” to “evil”. Something is clicking for mr here. could you describe your use of the word “porous” a little more?
          Please know that the people here understand.

          1. It’s ok Norma, after a while it goes away when you realize how good your life becomes :-))

          2. It’s like cutting off a cancer. I think I’m having to do that. Very painful when three out of four of your children are that way.

      3. I can relate to this I just got married to a guy like this. He was sweet enough to treat me okay enough to get me to marry him. Then emotionally abused manipulated and just kept taking, and taking. Until I started realizing I am nothing to him. Only a few people I have talked to understand what I am talking about and to seek counseling was hard at first. I was so brainwashed I kept trying to figure out what I did wrong. This is the sad part I am 39 and every guy I have dated or had a relationship with, even my children’s father all we like this. After getting married just 8 months ago and my husband just went cold and just walked out and left me with bill, my kids confused and just damaged me to a point of despair. Did i realize i am a victim for these kind of guys. Now that I know when I am telling my daughter, be aware of your fathers tactics she thinks he is the victim. It is like it never stops.

          1. Woody, I heard it said one time……..”Their undeveloped inner child called out to your undeveloped inner child and your’s answered”. Paraphrasing here! But I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about what you said here and I think their may be some truth to it but that it’s way more complicated and involved than what you typed, no offense.
            And again,,,,,,the word intention seems to be the keystone, in my opinion, in setting the worst of the worst apart from the rest. Very few people have no narcissistic elements to their make up. it’s how you manage those elements. You can let them run rampant and lead you where ever your desires dictate or you can reign them in and temper them, aka, develop character! 🙂

          2. Or you might not be Woody. YOU don’t attract them, they target you and take advantage of ANY chink in the armor. The chink in your armor doesn’t even have to be some disorder of your own, it could just be that you are vulnerable in some way and you can fill in the blank here. I don’t blame the dog who’s master beats it or the old man who get’s jumped and robbed walking down the street or the mouse who get’s pounced on and eaten by the cat. I think it’s easy to think that in some way the victim had it coming for some reason other than the fact that they were just naive and uneducated enough to not see it coming. Maybe they did have issues of their own, who doesn’t?

          3. Describe an inverted narcissist. Narcissist do not like people who take attention away from them. She may be has low self esteem and identity issues.

      4. I….completely agree with your whole story…i have given my all to a man well little boy who just turned 29. By the way….it’s no explaining how I went from never cursing a lot to NOW I speak it fluently, from never experiencing abuse in annnnnnny Manner to soul gut crushing humility…having kids involved only had me to think I WILL work my family out.. BUT when he makes everything look your fault, laughing cause he knows he’s surrounded by people and i don’t like arguing…speaking loudly so the kids will see and I would stop talking or doing anything because IM THE MOTHER…there has been so much hurt so so much. PEOPLE have no idea that mental abuse is the WORST ONE!!!! ITS SO torturing because i have asked him why won’t you just leave…things WILL he back on track then he goes back to speaking on the past! HE is very materialistic and self centered its sad how people like this break down someone who truly loves them and think a sorry is all the solution needed

      5. Why isn’t your ex [still] in prison for what he did to his 1st wife? Did you KNOW what he’d done before you got involved with him?? He probably hid it from you or made up a story that it was an accident and she used the ‘opportunity’ to ‘frame’ him because she was mad at him. [for what? Cheating? typical.]

      6. why is it put up to us to learn ways to learn the gray rock or to learn ways to escape these monsters malevolent which means evil and attacking people they attack us why is there no institution that will keep them away from us so that we can recover and move on from there abuse why is there institute for people that are suffering from their abuse from their lack from their lack of empathy this is Agreegiois find a place for them to go to so that we can leave in peace why don’t they have a place to go to

      7. I have a grandchild who is being treated like this by his sick mother!! He is under 2 and I see him going from a happy little baby into a little munchkin displaying PTSD. He has tried several times to hit his mother when angered!
        He raised his hand to me when he was tired. I calmly said ‘Nooo we don’t hit each other” grandma loves you, what do you want? He put his hands up and he sat with me. My poor little grandson! I sing over him and pray over him while he naps in my arms. This is often a sad world. 🙁

    2. Thanks for the suggestion, Puddle. The topic will be broached a bit in the current short series, but I’ll definitely fashion something more specific in the near future. And, as always, if I forget, please remind me! Thanks again.

      1. I will try to remember to remember!! I wish I could find Laura’s original question. I made a comment/ request below it asking you to clarify the subject for us. I know it’s possible and not only possible but it is common in these covertly manipulative situations. I’ve read the stories and I’ve read plenty of articles on the subject. I thought it might be helpful to have you put something in a post.
        In a way…….even a therapist can not understand unless they have been through it. One of the first therapists to unintentionally invalidate the enormity of the damage this has caused me said……..” I don’t see how continuing to talk about what happened and to focus on Spathtard is going to help you move on”! At that time I was in such shock and disbelief and in such a confused mental and emotional tailspin I almost literally couldn’t talk or think about anything else. That was 8 months or so ago and I still can’t wrap my head around it.
        When someone targets, then manipulates and then betrays the most wounded and vulnerable part of your entire being…..callously stringing you along only to drop you off an emotional cliff as if they were flicking a cigarette butt out the window and even then continues to mislead you with more confusion and mixed messages…….ping ponging your heart and mind with a baseball bat……horrific. I hope that this is not going to be my reality for the rest of my life. I hope that this can all be flushed from my mind and soon because unlike anything I have ever experienced before it has polluted my life in a way that is almost impossible to put into words.
        It’s interesting because I am even aware of how it sounds to others… dramatic and unbelievable, and I see the look in their eyes when I talk about it. It’s such an obscure experience that it’s just not part of other peoples reality. I honestly don’t know what would have happened if I hadn’t found the validation of speaking to people who really understood, who really got it.

        1. Hi. I believe you when you describe the horrific abuses you were subject to.

          I suffered similar “crazy making” and gas lighting, which, by it’s nature is terroristic and destabilizing.

          I believe you because I also suffered this type of incredible abuse at the hands of a psychopathic kook.

          1. As have I. Also, I have given thought on many occasions to exactly how I might have been affected but am not really sure tbh. I guess it will depend on ones personality type. I am quite strong emotionally and also have always been an optimist. Perhaps being of this personality type, has protected me more than I probably realise. And therefore other personality types could be more gravely affected!? Nevertheless, I do have times when I am badly affected by the range of CA behaviour exhibited by my wife…..and those closest to me can tell.

          2. Hina, your words are validating and I’m sorry you can relate. Kind os a sad situation…..when you find someone who understands you know they have been through the same Hell you have so it’s bitter sweet.
            I think another indicator that you have been part of some psychopathic manipulative game is that you don’t fully realize it until it’s over and the psychological chains that bound you to him start lifting away. THEN you start really understanding what those gut feelings were trying to tell you. It’s once the psychopath is no longer there to twist the truth… explain things away. AND that to me is the most horrific part, reviewing everything I loved and treasured and valued about the relationshi* through a completely different (not rose colored but crystal clear) lens. THAT to me is humiliating.

          3. My very angry covert malignant narcissist ex husband used to work in the POW training camp for the Navy. He knew exactly what he was doing as he destroyed many innocent lives. He laughs about it. Such an asshole. Karma will get him and send him to prison where BIG Bubba rapes him repeatedly And then invites his buddies to join in on the gang bang. Then he can enjoy the devil.

          4. Well Carrie. we can only hope so, yeah? I hope Spathtard is there as well getting exactly the same. It just makes me sick, these losers. The toxic waste they leave in your mind, heart, home and psyche while they skip on down the road as free as a bird. I would wager that he hasn’t lost a second’s sleep over this and if he did it was reliving the game in his mind with delight…….and I’m sure mommy is just so proud of his highness.
            The best thing I did was to talk to a couple people from that losers past because i really took on SO much mental crap. Even things I knew were not true, I still tossed them around endlessly in my head……”well maybe I’m wrong,,,,what if I did misunderstand,,,,,etc, etc, etc..” Only recently with all the reading and all the research and a councilor who specializes in this area, have I really come to get it and to know the truth and you know what?? The truth really does set you free.

          5. I believe you too, I have and am
            still suffering from being tormented by my partner. Guess what, because I am loud as a response to the constant gas lighting, abuse, put downs etc, she goes down to police and charges me with Common Assault/DV. So not true. I’m still here because I am scared of the manipulative tactics that this person is capable of. Court hearing is 3 Dec,

        2. Very true Puddle. When I would describe one of his antics, all I got was the “why would anybody DO that???”. The only person who looked paranoid and crazy was me. Talk about double injustice.

          That was almost 10 years ago, and I still couldn’t find words to describe him, or what living with him was like. I’ve recovered from the PTSD, but it changed me emotionally and physically. I’m wiser, but not wise enough to make it worth the price I paid.

          Unless you’ve been locked in the cage with one, and have had to wrap your head around the sheer horror that is them, it isn’t possible to ‘get it’.

          People get bitten by vampires, because nobody believes they exists. They are that terrible, and they ARE out there.

          1. Einstein……You put that into words SO WELL!! It’s just that much of a tangled web…so hard to describe and so much gets lost in translation to someone who has not been there. It actually SO exhausting to try to explain it to someone and I am remembering and reinterpreting things almost daily.
            A friend of mine was married to one of them for 30+ years and only realized what he was after I started doing my research and sharing information with her. She said…….”Oh my GOD!! That was what Xxxxx WAS”!!! I said this somewhere else but she said she will never forgive him for what he did to her mind. She actually did try to kill herself,,,,,,,,it was that bad and he was trying his damnedest to convince people and her that she was crazy. JUST SICK!!
            Thank you for your post Einstein, it was very well worded and very validating. I wish you well and continued healing. Your right……it’s not worth the price.
            At this time in my life,,,,,,I am SO concerned for my safety. I realize this is someone who I have absolutely NO idea who he really is or what he is really capable of. That means that I am taking many security measures in order to feel safe and secure in my own home and on my property. Things I never would have dreamed of doing. The cost of this is not cheap and it will change my entire lifestyle. I’m trying to do it in a way that makes lemonade out of a pile of rotten lemons though.

        3. Hi everyone here.
          I am reading these with tears in my eyes trying to keep control – at last I find people who have suffered the same utterly destroying abuse – but at the same time the realization that others have / are experiencing it is awful!
          I am in the process of divorce, and my 3 young children (and access to them) is the weapon my ex is using to continue abusing me – I want / need to rescue them from the manipulations but was physically forced to leave my home – I have been subjected to both physical abuse (always below provable level) in addition to the prior years of systematic destruction of everything I was – to the point where nothing at all made any sense and I believed that I was mentally ill.

          I am now in appalling health (heart failure and acute clinical depression, in addition to being a life-long diabetic) and these are being used as excuses to deny me access to my children who are all over 9 years old. Have been psychologically assessed and told that I have symptoms of someone who has sustained continuous abuse over many years, but do not have any psychosis or personality or memory disorders..

          But, as a man, I am expected to be “functional” – And although I have never lifted even a finger against my (soon to be) ex, her accusations and inferences seem to be enough to prevent me from getting a reasonable hearing from anyone. Mediation is appalling – I am subjected to an abusive tirade tuned to destroy me, and every time I try to be heard, the tirade interrupts – The mediator allows these irrelevant off-topic interruptions, but does not allow me to counter them.

          So now its to the family court to try to get contact with my children established in a way that she cannot use to continue abusing me.

          One thing though that I need to say – Although sure she suffers from MNPD, she is (under the bravado) a deeply damaged and insecure individual with low self esteem – I loved her and got involved with her because, I believe, I saw this – And I still feel deeply sad for her – She is probably the most deeply unhappy people I have met.. We had a few years when she appeared to be happy, but that came to an abrupt end when she met an ex, and suddenly the sickness seemed to take hold.

          1. Hi again Fred. I’m sorry to hear you are suffering at the hands of this person and it must be exceptionally difficult when your children are involved. To me it is jut beyond the pale to use children to hurt another person.
            So, what moake you actually believe she is so internally damaged or deeply unhappy?
            Covert agressives are very fond of and good at spinning all kings of ” poor me ” stories and claiming this and that. It’s part of the mask they where to get what they want.
            I’m not saying this is absolutely true in your situation but I never assume that a woe is me tale is legit.

          2. I do understand you…. and I’m so sorry. My grandmother, mother, and three children are this way. I married two men that way. I’m still trying to wrap my mind around what it’s going to take to keep my sanity…..

          3. Sad indeed. Yep its quite clear these days that as a man, you have no rights…. and are expected to be a spartan robot…
            And that mere inferences from a woman are enough for the court to do violence on a man – imprison him.
            And the kids suffer … but who cares about them.. certainly not narcissists.

        4. I know exactly what you mean, it’s comforting to read that other people have experienced this (not that I would wish if on anyone else)

        5. i feel every wordof what u just said. i was involved with a cop who put me through mind games andwhen i walkedaway he always came back playing my head and heart in ways no one understands. the department made me believe they would seek justice only to make me the blame n focus of i allowed it.not true all the bothersin blue played my story just like he played my life./after i left him i didnt think i could ever feel anything more hurtful until this police dept. manipulated me as well.i hadthe same experiencewth a psychologist she told me i never knew who i was and thisis why i couldnt explain the hurt he put me through. I walked out just like u difeeling madandaskingwhy doesntanyone understand unlessthey have experienced what psycopaths narcissts do.

        6. i am going threw it as i type..i had to evict him. he has stayed in a hotel for over two months..with no job,friends or family..just to harass me..he has done unspeakable things..cut the wires at my shop and slit my tires this weekend..going around town smearing me with my customers.,,THANK GOD I FOUND THESE SIGHTS>>>or i would be sucked right back in..the first month he blackmailed me..i haven’t spoke since now, he won’t leave till he destroy’s me…he even stole my kids credit card and is on every porn, date sight……beware ladies…tall dark and handsome…RUN>>!!!50’s in michigan..i’m the one in counceling.THIS Gave me the validation i was looking for…like a light bulb…….IM DONE>>>THANK YOU>>!!!!

        7. Puddle I understand deeply the confusion. He was eloquent, educated, smooth…a masterful liar and manipulator, and in public a philantropist garning admiration and support. And a narcissist who when not in public maligned all who were not his few chosen exceptions. In the beginning I was bothered by his lies but never voiced it because his lies were in overexaggerating his admiration of my small victories…later the lies became negative and more and more aimed at anyone else who was in my life. I loved him deeply and was entertained by him as was all of the others who were duped. When he casually flipped the switch after 10 years and from one day to the next decided I was on the outside of his chosen few…because he had decided to move on to someone else, a child of 12 sadly…I was so devastated…so completely unable to take in what had happened that I was unable to defend myself or even concieve of my having a legal defense available to me…and he stripped me financially and left me with such monumental debt while torturing me with not only complete withdrawel but diliberate torture and cruelty….that now 13 years later I am only just beginning to recover.

          1. E, I feel your pain but I’m sure only a fraction because the length of my involvement was realativly short and the situation different BUT the pain they cause is realitive to the individual. It hurt me deeply too.
            Healing hugs to you E. It’s a bitter jaged pill to swallow but it seem to get smaller and smoother in time, still hurts though.

      2. I will put it on my calendar and ask again…

        and perhaps an expansion? My family of origin were/are thugs and the lowest lowlifes. I never fit in and to say they hate me would be an understatement. And gee, smart gal that I am, I married a version of my birth family.

        I twisted myself into a pretzel trying to come to grips with the headtrip done to me. (I’ve figure him out but it took years, my life with him nearly killed me.)

        My daughter was eight when I married the man who was an image, not the person he portrayed himself to be. Since life with him messed me up for a lot of years, imagine what it did to a child who had NO defenses.

        She’s an adult now and a calloused jerk. So… is she a calloused jerk b/c she adopted strategies that fit her personality? Or b/c she has been brainwashed by a truly skilled manipulative controller, and perhaps there is SOME way to reach her?

        It’s broken my heart to lose out on ever having a relationship with her. She is so angry, so vindictive, so blaming, lying, pretending stuff happened to her so people would not hold her accountable for normal expectations, etc etc. If she is brainwashed and emotionally traumatized, what can I do to heal her (if by some miracle I could get her to hear me).

        1. Very sorry to read of your personal experiences TryingToFigure…..

          I’m not sure I know the answer to the ‘nature or nurture’ question you pose. Perhaps there may be an element of both? My own experience is that my (CA) wife seems to be a carbon copy of her mother – which is an opinion held not only by myself btw. I suppose the point being is that we will all be affected as products of our particular environment, either for good or downright bad. I often muse to myself about how I may have been affected by my wife’s CA behaviour over the decades of being together. In any given conflict situation, the choice was to stoop to the same behaviour that I saw was being played out to me (yet could not precisely identify as that of a manipulator), or rise above it, doing what I ‘know’ to be the better way. At the end of the day, that must surely be the choice faced by anyone and everyone when in the same situation?

          I have noticed various inherited traits in our children – traits be ongoing both to me and their mother (as well as other family members – which fascinates me). And since coming to a knowledge of manipulative and CA behaviour, the result is that I have noticed similar traits, in one of my daughters in particular. She is in her mid teenage years so I am now working very hard to keep her reactionary behaviour in check – not necessarily by challenging her in an aggressive manner but by gently encouraging her to replay her responses to hostile situations and question herself, I.e., was I being aggressive or kindly, conflict driven or seeking a peaceful outcome? It is difficult but I am seeing some small positive changes.

          1. I have come to believe that these traits are indeed inherited. If I had known it at the time, I would NEVER had children.

        2. Trying to figure it out, That must be so hard to be a mother and see this happening. The mothering bond and instinct, the child connection,,,,,being sabotaged and polluted by another person and feeling helpless to change the situation. You have my sympathy for sure. Horrible. I’m afraid I don’t have any suggestions. I don’t have children and thank god the situation i was involved with didn’t involve children but his first and second wives did. Like many things to do with him, i’m sure I will never know the complete truth about any of that. I hope Dr. Simon might have some suggestions but it’s hard to advise with the small bit of information available in this format.
          I wish you luck though and hope that you can heal this relationship with your daughter. Have you tried writing a very heartfelt letter focusing only on YOU and your feelings, leaving out her behavior?

          1. Puddle,
            Yes. I tell her I love her and I say actions speak louder than words so I share HOW I treasured her. She accuses me of trying to emotionally manipulate and guilt trip her. I am so sad why loving someone is a bad thing. I am not asking for anything back. I just want her to know she is loved and that I want all good things for her.

          2. Trying to figure………….She is a product of dysfunction I’m afraid. I know it’s hard and sad beyond description I’m sure. Quite honestly, it is like the saying…… can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. I’m sorry to say that and it is just my opinion. You have tried. Maybe it’s time to let her step away fully and know that there is the future chance that SHE will step back to you in the future. Pray for it……..for your healing and for hers. I think the more you try to force the desired outcome, the more she will resist. I don’t envy your situation at all. I do wish you the best possible outcome. Focus on yourself and your own happiness and leave the rest to the future.

    3. The FACT IS every religion is about meditation. All major religons. Hinduism has statues displaying the dicipline. Islam tawwwwlks about the idea of meditation as “not think8ing” or as I like to interpret… the limits of thinking. Catholics are commanded to meditate reglarly in the catechism. Buddhism promotes meditat8ion. Even pagans dipict curnunnos in posture. If you fail to meditate and cultivate morals you will pay.

    4. I am about to divorce a BP narcissist, boarder personality. I never knew he was this until the day he walked off saying I may or may not be back. In fear I ran to a lawyer and soon I will be facing a court. Has anyone ever divorce a BP and what can I expexpect?

    5. Puddle
      I so understand exactly what you are saying and how you feel. Is all I can say is stay away from it because they have evil intentions and it will wreak havoc in your life until you avoid them like the plague.

    6. Domestic Violence counseling includes all abuse! Physical is very obvious b/c it’s seen clearly, bruises, black eyes, broken arms plus those not seen broken ribs, sprains etc. Verbal is not just unkind words but character assination , your worthless, stupid, u never do anything right, you’re ugly, you’re a hoe, etc., a terrible mother; instruct u on how to do the most simple tasks; Mental; they play games, hide your keys, lie to confuse u and keep u off balance so u even question yourself; your abilities or confidence , loving then abusive, blaming u; u made me do this; lock I into your home and no phone, emotional; they cheat but accuse u of it, they isolate u from family and others, , they undermine your relationship with your children, they hurt your children, u r on guard and fearful all the time; Mental and emotional cross over into each other’s categories but u begin to feel insane; sexual abuse; they rape u, force porn on u, inflict pain during sex, manipulate u into having sex with others, threesomes, same or opposite gender sex; all r domestic violence and can cause great pain and PTSD. There r many different symptoms that can arise from the above abuse! When someone’s wants to hurt u physically, verbally, emotionally, mentally or sexually than u need to get away from them quickly; this is toxic! Unless u r a masochists, and then they r your cup of tea!

    7. Not sure how I ended up here. Haven’t been on this thing for a week or more. I’m getting ready to sue /expose/do whatever I can to keep this evilness at bay. I was recently all but driven out of town and actually shunned by some AA members.This Narc is a 39 ish female.I unwittingly exposed her lack of real estate knowldge and the next six months were hell. WOW- I consider myself a pretty tough old bird but this mess has caused my health and future irepairable damage and change. At 63. I’m having to” start over” yet again. I will indeed keep reading. I NEED advise on some things.!!! Someone out there PLEASE reply to me. Most people don’t get it at all!!!

    8. I I’ve just realized that sick monster of a mother has been holding me hostage while ‘offering’ to maintain my paperwork and finances as a kind gesture, and while I am sequestered, she is administering covert emotional abuse that is barely perceptible.

      I know the gaslight routine, stone walling and amateur hour invalidations rather well by now, of course.

      No less than 3 NPD partners – thanks to mom’s ‘grooming’. I am now having to deal with the horrific realization that my controlled abuse is a family affair and that my stepfather is the willing enabler who had been joining in as my sadistic mother gets all immediate family triangulated.

      The degrees of evil here are something I would never even imagine existed.

      Who could do this kind of thing – torture their own children? I can’t even imagine doing such a thing to an enemy, let alone my own child.

      There is clearly not an ounce of regret or remorse. This psychopath is far too careful and calculating to not be orchestrating a meticulous game plan for torture.

      Mary the black widow and her puppet enabler went a little too far and blew their cover. She knows I know now and my empathic intuition senses the pervasive fear they have of being found out.

      Imagine this insanity – my sister, a federal investigator of child abuse crimes for Immigration and Customs has been protecting her own abuser from my ‘inquisition’. The situation is surreal in the most living-nightmare sense of the word.

  2. Thanks to Dr Simon for illuminating subject matter of such darkness – ‘unspeakable’ in Thomas Merton’s sense of the word (I think, personally). My perception is, its proliferating – adding up to a situation in our society, and common cause – fundamental human interest – unaddressed even unrealized as yet, with staggering impact and ramifications all around.

    May I cite what seems to me a major ‘targeting zone’ upon which covert crosshairs are often trained, in stealth – per question raised in replies – of physical attack (bodily harm) vs psychological violence. I’d cite a common figure of speech, referring to economic subsistence – one’s livelihood – as one’s “life’s blood.” Its brute material, tangible, not just psychological -but indirectly so compared to bodily tissue.

    My sense is trying to get someone fired, deprive them of income – is often a main objective, tantamount to physical violence. To impoverish the target, destroy their career if possible, seems to be a favorite Modus Operandi of some predators – their plan for prey singled out.

    A concern I realize in our ‘boundary deficient’ milieu – apparently its not just safe, but often ridiculously easy even fun for the predator to assault targets at that level. It presents a ‘nothing to lose, everything to gain’ prospect, and can inflict a lot of damage. Physical violence can incur law enforcement risks for the assailant. But they can carry out all kind of ‘get target fired’ operations from behind lush cover, with relative impunity.

    I’ve wondered about Hollywood actors ‘blacklisted’ in the 1950’s commie scare. How many of them were targets maybe, of this kind of thing? Did Kim Hunter, or Sam Jaffe (etc) make someone mad, or just maliciously envious of their talents? It’d be so easy, considering the climate of the era – to make simple anonymous phone call to a studio head; perhaps dramatizing ‘concern’ (wouldn’t wanna see anything bad happen to them). All it might take is to drop a poison word of suspicion, about an actor’s political affiliation, to inflict massive casualty. I bet it’d be easy to scare a studio head about what could happen if they don’t heed some such ‘anonymous tip.’

    I’m no history expert. But during the rise of the 3rd Reich, before they’d seized full power enabling them to throw off all constraints – wasn’t attacking a target’s livelihood or holdings, from behind cover, a common tactic? Maybe yelling “fire in the Reichstag!” – often with a convenient scapegoat set up to take the rap, divert suspicion?

    Seems to me ‘life’s blood’ subterfuge is big biz for ‘man’s inhumanity to man’ in current forms – malignant, aggressive, manipulatively disordered assailants in our midst. Considering the ramifications, a concern of vast scope and scale. I look forward to reading more at this blog, thank you.

    1. Indeed, character assassination and economic subterfuge, like Doclao says, are effective weapons to ruin a life of a good person. There have to be ways to lessen the likelihood and impact of that beforehand just in case anything like that could happen. In other words, inoculate ourselves and cover ourselves.

      1. Your question, Puddle, deserves more contemplation:

        When character assassination is discussed, we presume a target in this hypothetical scenario to be innocent, someone, who doesn’t deserve having their name tarnished.

        However, can’t aggressors screw other aggressors over as well? This doesn’t answer your question, but provides some food for thought.

        I guess a character-less one can see another character-less one as an obstacle and arrange for them to be seen in a bad light.

        1. I think it comes down to true or false statements and the context. For instance,,,,,,,when Spathtard was slandering me by saying that i said I would have him killed………….well indirectly but not exactly he was telling the truth, kind of but not really. What I said was in response to him making a H U G E deal because I had a gun in my bed that he found. Found it then ran home to mommys while I was in the bathroom. SO, now bare in mind I do keep protection in my home and i have for……maybe 15 years? So, after using this as evasive ammunition (no pun intended) during arguments, I’d finally had enough. I mean,,,,,,if he was THAT concerned about his safety…..why was he still seeing me?? Why would he take me to his mother’s, introduce me to his family,,,,,on and on and on…..
          So I finally said, that’s enough… are being ridiculous. And he responded in an incredulous tone………Well, for all I knew you were going to shoot me!! I JOKINGLY said (and at this point it had become SO ridiculous to me and every friend of mine I had told about it, “Oh Spathtard……..I would never shoot you! I’d have someone else do it!
          I can’t tell you haw many times he assured me that he knew it was a joke and blah blah blah blah……… but now he has turned that into me saying that I would have him killed. He knows the truth, I know the truth and my long standing friends know the truth and just shake their heads or laugh at the idiocy of his Spathtardedness!!
          He then says………I’m afraid you don’t know how much you frightened me………That was almost two years ago at the time.. we had been to two different relationship councilors…he never mentioned it again until he wanted to mess with me at the end.
          ANYHOW……….My point is,,,,,,,,if you are making up BS in order to trash someone’s name or reputation in order to harm them intentionally or harm their income or marriage or whatever…….that is one thing.
          If you are speaking to your friends and/ or speaking in confidence and telling the truth with NO ill intent, that is another thing. From what i’ve read, victims of these monsters are so desperate to get someone to understand what they have just been through, they will talk to just about anyone who will listen and in my case, in the aftermath of this mess…….diagnosed with PTSD and fighting to keep my head above water, emotionally and mentally…….I may not have used the best judgement in what I said and who I said it to. In fact, I see very clearly that one of the people I spilled my guts to was extremely disordered himself! I see that now but I didn’t have a clue then.

        2. J, I think what I’m trying to figure out on this subject is……..would it be character assassination if I speak truthfully about spathtard and the manipulative abuse he doled out…….or spoke of his actual abusive side rather than his charming innocent mask?
          In other words………..I would not be lying…… and I would not be doing it with the intention of harming him. It would be things I’ve said during the time I’ve been looking for the truth…..during to times that I was trying to sort this all out……when I’ve turned to people for help, comfort and validation.
          Oddly……He always made this real big deal about how he would NEVER say one word bad about me….which turned out to be a lie, but I never returned that promise to him. NO! Why? Because if someone is treating someone abusively and they talk to another person about it, seeking their opinion and input and maybe their validation OR to find out if there IS another side to this person that they may not know about……..well, I wouldn’t be doing that if he had been honest and created an atmosphere of trust and honesty in the relationship to start with.

        3. If you tell the truth about how someone’s shown they are low integrity, then it’s not character assassination. So, the term carries the implication of lying?

          1. Lying is slander. Telling lies against someone’s character is slander. But if you are telling the truth……? I think there is something involved with malicious intent and truth, etc…..a combination of factors.

          2. J, i think there is some kind of legal issue…..say you go up to someone’s employer and tell they a lie about this individual and he get fired because of it. I think that is a big problem.

          3. We are on the same wavelength, very good.

            Folks ought to be taught to be more objective about how they evaluate information, especially something that paints someone in a bad light.

            Two sides of a coin: It could be true that Mr/Mrs X is guilty of Y and is a Z kind of person, so I do need to be careful. Also, it could be that Mr/Mrs X is innocent and a target of undeserved slander, so while being careful I also need to take care not to add fire to what I don’t yet know is true or untrue.

          4. Agreed J. I find it interesting and a huge bit telling, that NO ONE from Spathtard’s family ever approached me about my side. they are apparently content with his version of things. THAT says something about their character and his. It says a lot about everything in many ways. His actions shoot a hole in his words period because if he meant a fraction of what he said the entire time we were together, the outcome would be much different.
            he used to say,,,,,,,,I don’t know how to make you happy. Of course no matter how many things I told him WOULD make me happy…..he didn’t do them. BUT, if he had only learned to make a right hand turn when he learned to drive a car…..and going to buy beer required he make a left hand turn, I’ll bet he would learn how to make a left hand turn pretty quickly.

    2. Of course, the best is to avoid having anything to do with an aggressor, manipulator, abuser or personality-disordered person in the first place.

      For instance, rape lies are an extremely effective way to ruin someone’s life and tarnish their reputation for good.

      1. J, Ultimately…..I suppose it’s best to NEVER say anything bad about ANYONE no matter how disordered they are?? But I don’t think that is always realistic. I’m sorry but if someone from this community broke into my home and raped me…….I can guarantee that I would SO NOT keep my mouth shut! As I’ve said before on more than one occasion, I consider what he did to me to be rape on every level, the only difference is that he did not use physical force to overcome my resistance. Of course he didn’t…….that would have put an end to the game pronto and he would have gone to jail. He chose a more covert method and one that would cause many more layers of harm.

      2. Getting raped for real is completely different than someone intentionally lying about getting raped just to ruin another person’s reputation and life. That’s what I’m saying.

        I’ve read about cases where a person has cried wolf. Those are very nasty cases of someone lying to harm someone else.

        It’s like you said; true or false statements and context.

        1. J, absolutely. I’d be scared to death these days to be a father with a young child who’s friends could cry sexual molestation at the drop of a hat. Many reasons why they could, and you don’t know what the child’s emotional/ mental background is. It could be a false charge but cost you time, money and reputation in the process of disproving it. NIGHTMARE!! It’s just an accusation away.

          1. As far as what he has falsely accused me of……I don’t really even care anymore. It’s so transparent to me what he is doing or was trying to do it just makes me see him as more pathetic. None of his friends or their opinions are of any concern to me so let him play his childish games. That part at least has been somewhat of an amusement to me it’s so lame. I know true things about him things that I have no problem sharing with people I know……..why??? Because the things I know about him paint a picture of a person who has potential to harm me and I want as many people as possible to know the truth about him. They aren’t going to hear it from him, that’s for sure. He is the pot calling the kettle black…..accusing the victim of what he is guilty of for sure.

          2. Indeed. Some aggressors are concerned with looking good, aren’t they? Perhaps there are some, who don’t even care about that, I don’t know. Still it’s a relief, when others know, too, what’s really going on.

        2. Okay, small agenda here: You’ve said you have friends, who understand your situation. Wouldn’t they be open to talking about these kinds of matters and spreading these kinds of discussions?

          1. My friends understand only in that they know me J. and they see how some of what he has said is so pathetically ridiculous because they DO know me! I do have at least one friend who’s ex husband of 30 years is without a doubt a parasitic psychopath. She gets it but had no clue that he was one till I started sharing the information I’ve shared with her and then she was like O M G!!!! that’s Xxxxxx! He messed her head up so badly she actually did try to kill herself A LONG TIME AGO. She is away from him now, divorced and has moved on with her life. She says………”I will NEVER forgive him for what he did to my mind”.

            She has so much on her plate just keeping herself going right now, I don’t envision her taking on any kind of campaign.
            There are people out there trying to spread the word and educate people, Like Dr. Simon. and, thank God I have finally come across a couple people in therapeutic rolls who DO get it. I have been speaking with an “associate” of Dr. Robert Hare and she more than gets it.
            You know what J?? The thing that gets me more than anything else is just how slippery these creatures are. How little can be proven. No bruises, no kicked in doors but I can guarantee that Spathtardx took careful aim and hit the most fragile, vulnerable, most easily manipulated place in me possible. It has changed my life in a way that I know is beyond repair because it re-inflicted a very very old, primal, preverbal wound……one that I was lucky to survive the first time because some don’t. Babies, animal or human who are abandoned……many times succumb to what is called failure to thrive, basically a loss of the will to live. He made himself such an integral part of my life and it was the first time I had ever felt that I truly belonged to someone and that they belonged to me……….that we belonged together. He said everything imaginable to perpetuate that belief……….EVERYTHING! If he wasn’t reassuring me about his feelings for me and his dedication to me and the relationship, he was berating me for not believing or doubting or for being afraid it wasn’t true. Seemingly there was nothing he wouldn’t say to blow smoke up my a** to keep me on the line and then WHAM! He’s drop me on my emotional head……then Ahhhhhhhhhh…….He’s pick me up, hold me and tell me how much I meant to him and how no matter what it was going to work out because you know what Puddle?? No, What Spathtard? We love each other and even though things go wrong sometimes and we have our problems………we love each other. You really mean that Spathtard? I really mean it Puddle,,,,,,,I love you. I love you so much Spathtard…………..
            Gone……history…….back to Mommys basement drinking and making an a** out of himself and certainly of me.
            As hard as it is for me to believe now………..I really did believe him and I wouldn’t have stayed with him if I didn’t. The only thing i can figure out is that the confusion I was locked into mentally and emotionally clouded my ability to get that what he was saying was not true. My councilor told me today that one thing that will ALWAYS tip you off to a disordered sociopathic encounter (once you know this of course) is feeling confused and that something just isn’t adding up. That is where these manipulations take you and that is what they are meant to do. It disarms the victim, weakens the prey. So you don’t even have to try to figure out what is wrong… just have to know that the confusion you are experiencing is a sign to get out of Dodge.
            Now,,,,,,,this is a little bit of a problem for me because generally speaking I have quite a bit of confusion going on ALL THE TIME over just about everything! It’s my mind…..the way it works/ doesn’t work. It feels normal to me to be confused and I think he zeroed in on that as well. Knowing that about myself I tend to give the benefit of the doubt. It feels like a conundrum and it’s very frustrating but I am hopeful that I have learned enough from this to protect myself in the future.

            Sorry for the ramble J and thanks for listening.

          2. “My councilor told me today that one thing that will ALWAYS tip you off to a disordered sociopathic encounter (once you know this of course) is feeling confused and that something just isn’t adding up. That is where these manipulations take you and that is what they are meant to do. It disarms the victim, weakens the prey. So you don’t even have to try to figure out what is wrong… just have to know that the confusion you are experiencing is a sign to get out of Dodge.”

            That’s excellently put. If something feels wrong, the feeling’s going to linger and bother you even more. I definitely agree it’s best not to try to figure it all out and that it’s best to treat it as a messages to, like you say, get out of Dodge.

      3. It’s too darn easy for some bitter, miserable, scorned or mentally ill woman to accuse someone of rape or sexual harassment. I make it a rule to not automatically believe rape and sexual harassment charges.

        1. Sasha……you are right not to automatically believe ANYTHING! And yes, there are plenty of people who manufacture all kinds of stories to get back at someone…….no doubt about that! Another area that can manufacture serious damage these days is child abuse or sexual molestation. I’d be scared to death to be a man with a young daughter who brings friends to the house!! You could be perfectly innocent of any accusation but it could turn your world upside down proving it!

          The other side of what you are saying is that it’s also too darned easy for someone to get away with covert manipulative emotional rape within the context of a supposed “relationship”, which in a lot of peoples opinion, mine included, is even more damaging that physically forceful rape. The advantage, far and away, it on the perpetrators side and he knows that!

    3. Then again, if only it was that simple to avoid such subterfuge.

      I think it’s also good to talk with trusted friends about the subject of cover subterfuge and such. Of course this has to be embedded into a conversation in a natural and rational(perhaps speculative?) way and not just shoehorn or you could end up looking paranoid.

      I once talked with a few friends of mine about defamation. I said: “It can be difficult to tell apart defamation and genuine reports of unacceptable conduct. You can’t automatically know whether someone is like he’s made out to be.”

      1. Definitely agree with the paranoid bit. Imv, detecting and understanding CA behaviour (especially that of the malignant narcissist) requires time….a lot of it……plus a good deal of deep thought, connecting the dots, reviewing the different incidents in just trying to make sense of it all. And in which process to actual discovery, I would imagine that unless one is an expert (whatever an expert really is), it might well lead to a number of competing theories being considered and discarded along the way. One of course has to be very careful when discussing this even with ones closest friends… indeed one could end up looking desperately paranoid or even vindictively judgemental towards the CA.

        My experience (in discovering my wife to be extremely manipulative) is that, on making my views known to a few family members that have expressed concern about our troubled relationship, one member in particular (her sister), has not taken the news very well at all. They prefer to explain the behaviour away by saying she is ‘simply’ depressed, which couldn’t be further from the truth if they tried.

        1. Danny…….In my opinion, Spathtard’s family was/ is as disordered as he is so any time spent exploring what is wrong with him would have been wasted time. And there is that whole “blood is thicker than water” thing. AND there is the mother son bond (or enmeshment in this case). I really do have a feeling that the entire situation is much sicker than I will ever know.
          I can relate to what you are saying Danny.
          I hope things are going better for you?

          1. Absolutely agree Puddle. In my experience, the unconditional support for unacceptable behaviour has been astounding! Made worse that I come from an upbringing in which we were encouraged to stand up for what is right……no matter what or who!!! My wife is mimicking or thereby emboldened by behaviour exhibited by her own mother.

          2. And her mother probably has a vested covert interest in this dynamic with her daughter as well Danny. Misery loves company??

        2. Danny, to avoid looking paranoid when discussing these matters one important thing is emotional control, that is, staying levelheaded and rational.

          1. You know what J, THAT is what they do though…….they stay in control (unless it suits them strategically) and at the same time set you up to loose control. This just clicked in my head!!

          2. Yes J…..I have had to learn this the hard way, through a lot of discomfort and personal pain over a prolonged period of ignorance to the core issue. The point, as you rightly say, don’t reveal ones emotional state or frustrations and/or even desperation. The CA will pick you apart with coldhearted and discompassionate ease. They can smell paranoia from a thousand paces. So you will very deliberately be be made to quickly forget you ever had needs, let alone have the right or [equal] entitlement to have your needs met. It is all about them.

      2. I was talking in general terms with my friends.

        Even so, you are on to something. People tend to confuse hard-to-explain mistrust with actual paranoia. This has been handled in one article here. Still, people miss or forget that truly paranoid people actually have high sense of self-importance and are comfortable with (perhaps even look forward to) fighting against perceived assailants whereas mistrustful people want things to be well again.

      3. To put it short, I’ve gotten the impression that truly paranoid people have that “fight a good fight” -mentality.

        1. Im not sure about your definition of paranoid J. I’m not saying it’s wrong but maybe I’m not understanding. No offense!

          1. seems like a very fine line and a subjective line. What might appear as paranoia on the outside might actually be justifiable mistrust and genuine concern to someone. I really am sure I have no idea who Spathtard actually is as a person, what he is capable of, what he has done in the past, how many people he has done it to…..

          2. Well, it is confused for paranoia. Do you notice a bit about self-importance? I think that’s one telling characteristic. If you want to move on after suffering, that’s one thing. But paranoia has that aspect of self-importance.

            I remember you once liked to this site. I’ve happened to know of it for long, too.

            Now, look at the red flag 48, the bit about fighting the good fight -mentality. Perhaps that says it.


          3. Interesting J……You mention “self importance”. I’m sorry I haven’t had tome to read the two articles yet! 🙂
            I mention the self importance thing because ………something struck me about it. I guess, I feel like I have to have a certain degree of that quality because I only have me to protect me and keep me safe. I’ll try to read the article(s) soon!!

    4. Like what Trump is doing daily with his Administration and NFL players or just someone he disagrees with! Generally, it blows back in his face though! Showing the world who he truly is; toxic, mean., cruel, vengeful, without empathy for anyone! Look how he treated Melania on Inauguration Day! The Obamas were more courteous and caring; those he considers inferior to him. I disagree completely!

  3. Dr. Simon, it seems to have been laid on my plate to file a complaint with the Montana State board which handles licensing and ethics complaints against mental health therapists. Let me give you a bit of background on this story.

    First, please understand that I don’t go looking for trouble. But operating my clothing alterations and mending shop on Main Street means that I get a fair number of “characters.” One of these I mentioned here before. This man is currently taking courses at the Univ. of Montana, with the aim of becoming a licensed mental health therapist. At that time I strongly considered sending in a complaint to the ethics committee, but ultimately decided not to, since it would probably have devolved to a “he said, she said” case. And you know how CAs will twist the truth. At the time I had this man as a customer, I was puzzled as to how to deal with him, I took it to the Lord in prayer, and while I was actually praying about it, I heard in my head the words covert aggressive. OK, thank you Lord, I will simply tell him to find another seamstress. One of my customers is a psychiatrist, and when I discussed this problem with him, his advice was to “Keep it simple.”

    So, when he came to pick up his shirts, he wanted to leave some more things to be done. I said “No, you said last time you were here that you were a poor student and you did not want to pay my price for refurbishing your burgundy coat. And, as my attorney has recommended, I’ve raised my prices since you were last here, so you won’t be able to afford my work and you will need to find another seamstress.” (this is true, my attorney has been bugging me for a couple of years to raise prices.)

    Anyway, he left, somewhat unhappily. But he’s still around, he went to see one of my colleagues (she and I are friends) and wanted her to shorten his shirt sleeves within an impossibly short time frame (she is generally booked 3 weeks out). She told him no, she doesn’t do plackets/cuffs because they never turn out well, so he should take them to me, and laid my business card on the counter. At that point he LIED and said, “No, she did terrible work for me.” And he claims to be a Christian.

    I have never in my whole life (I’m 73 now)done “terrible” work for anyone. My female biological parent had NPD, and I learned very early in life to do jobs perfectly or I would be punished severely. In addition, I realize full well that my livelihood is dependent on doing an expert job. That’s why I have customers from Canada, Baltimore, New York City, etc. They find me when they are out here on vacation, and actually ship garments to me for work, then I ship them back. I am given generous tips year round, lots of goodies at Christmas time. In short this man has slandered me to my colleague and who knows how many other people), she knows it is not true and she told him so. (Malignant narcissism in action!!!) And he also thinks he is entitled to cut in line in front of 40 other customers.

    There are of course many more details, but this is already over-long. I shudder at the thought of the horrendous damage this man might do to unsuspecting people who might go to him for therapy, providing he passes through all his classwork. He has an affable (on the surface) personality, and since he has been manipulating people all his life, he is VERY good at it. And in the event things turn a bit difficult for him, suddenly he doesn’t understand English very well (born in Romania, still has some accent).

    So, here are my questions: am I over-reacting? do I write to the state licensing board which will have to deal with him eventually (there is a form on line for doing that)?, do I write to his professors at Univ. of Montana?, or _____? Any comments or suggestions you might have on this matter would be very much appreciated.

      1. J, I want to thank you for noticing my comment, and also for the “heartless-bitches” link you listed above. I’ve just read it and will recommend it to a couple of friends. Best wishes and Happy New Year!

      2. You’re welcome, Elva. Discovered Heartless Bitches years ago. Now, knowing what I now, some points in their lists seem to point to significant personality and/or character problems.

        Also thanks to you for spreading the word!

    1. Generally, Elva, I respond to questions directed primarily to me when folks reach me via the “back channel” or “Contact Dr. Simon” feature. But inasmuch as others might have some helpful thoughts for you, also, I thought I’d add a few thoughts of my own here. From just the information you’ve provided here, although it appears you have some cause to be offended, I’m not sure that any licensing board or even the educational institution would have grounds for any action – ether preventative or reparative. So I’m not sure contemplating such action is worth your time or effort. Now if this person were rampantly besmirching your reputation to the point that you could demonstrate that directly because of his slander you were suffering financial “damage,” I would think you might then have good reason to pursue a legal remedy, although I’m certainly no legal authority to be advising you about this.

      1. Thank you for your reply, Dr. Simon. No, he is not, at this point, causing me any financial damage. And I’d rather not have to take the time to pursue this any further. But I do have great concern about what he would do to clients or patients if he were to pass all the hurdles and actually be licensed to practice. So, perhaps a more general question would be, at what point would a person put in a complaint to any state ethics board, if the person feels the therapist is not doing a good job? That might be a subject for a future short article? Again, I thank you for your comment.

        1. Elva, This is just my opinion but the position you are in with this man has nothing to do with him in any other way but in regards to you and how he has treated you. I would imagine that it is not appropriate to address anyone about his qualifications to be a therapist if he hasn’t been YOUR therapist. If he were your therapist and did something inappropriate or unprofessional with you during the course of your therapy, then you would be able to report him. But he is not even licensed as a therapist at this time, correct?
          I have a feeling that this will all sort it’s self out without your involvement. I do hope that things continue to not affect you in a negative way and it sounds like your reputation is more than adequate to make up for anything negative he might say or has said!

  4. A great many websites are talking about narcissim now as a spectrum disorder. I do not believe that narcissism is in all of us, although I understand that very small children do not have the brain capacity to recognise others as separate from them and can therefore display ‘narcissistic’ traits. I have also read of Malignant Narcissists described as 6 year olds who cannot accept ‘no’ and think the whole world is an extension of them. They do behave like ridiulous children at times. At other times, they are disturbingly intelligent and devious. They pick and choose when and who to abuse.

    However, many authors on the internet will say we all have some narcissistic traits. This bothers me deeply. I have a son with Aspergers Syndrome and people routinely talk about this Autistic Spectrum disorder in the same manner. While some people might be selfish or others struggle understanding social or cultural norms, it does not follow that these people are ‘narcissistic’ or have autistic characteristics.

    I think I am bothered by it because having been raised by a Malignant Narcissist, and having only just come to terms with that, it is mighty hard to hear this terrible disorder talked about in such flippant and superficial terms. I certainly hope we don’t all have some elements of Narcissism, and I can’t help but think that perhaps it is actually Narcissists who write these types of things in order to normalise an extremely abnormal character disorder.

    1. Observation spot on, Dodie. It makes sense. There’s also another saying that anyone can be a bully or that anyone is capable of evil. All these statements ignore the fact that many people are not inclined to use violence, physical or emotional, on a whim. Not everyone is willing to roll over others to achieve a goal. There are many people, who simply want to live their life in peace. It’s common sense.

      Dr Simon, I think what Dodie just said definitely is worth further inspection.

  5. I need help do you know of a “rehab” center where I could go to learn new living skills after being married to a monster for 15yrs? All centers seem to be drug or alcohol based I am being mentally and was physically abused but after he broke my back with a good kick it stopped. I’m done I want out. Suggestions? I have high aniexty, stress, no sleeping, hyper aware, cry all the time, fall to pieces….No bad thoughts of harming, never would. Seeing counselors taking clonazapam? .05mg I know this is too low

    Any info would really be helpful, The Ranch looked like what I was looking for but then it said sexual trauma, he just masterbates for the entire marriage and hasn’t touched me I don’t think that’s what they’re talking about.

    Waiting for your reply thanks

  6. I had a very bad experience with a woman, who I think is a malignant narcissist. We dated for two months and I ended the relationship as we did not get along. I guess I was not someone easily exploited or manipulated. any way, needless to say, All hell broke loose two weeks after I ended the relationship. She accused me of impropriety, and she was a very conniving and convincing liar. I contacted one of her ex- husbands, (thankfully I did not become another one), and learnt about her having being diagnosed as a malignant narcissist.
    she had told me she was sexually abused as a child by her father. She was also 0ne-third native American Indian. I wa not the first victim of her revengeful actions, as she had repeatedly accused ex-husbands and boyfriends of the same things.
    Could the sexual abuse have caused a psychological schizm and poor self image as well as a loathing of self and a mistrust of people that developed into malignant narcissism?

    To fall foul of a malignant narcissist i not a very pleasant experience as they have absolutely no conscience at all and they can be extremely vicious in their attacks

    1. While I appreciate all comments and relevant information, I must ask that commentators avoid giving names and other identifying information when posting. I have for some time now – largely because of the great care commentators have taken with respect to decorum – not submitted posts to prior approval first. And for many months I can barely count on one hand the edits I’ve had to make. I’d like to keep things that way, so I’m giving this reminder not only with respect to this post but for any others where similar concerns might apply. I have made minor edits to this post to remove identifying information not crucial to the points being made. And I greatly appreciate everyone paying close attention to the caveat not to post any information not essential to making a valid point. Thanks so much!

  7. I find it incredibly sad that someone so afflicted by traumas in their upbringing ends up with such a horrible thing as BPD. Like they asked for this? Basically what I’m hearing is that they are the way they are because they were MADE this way not because they were born this way or chose to be this way. How do people with little assets or possibly not a lot of brain power even GET help when good help for all kinds of things seems to be scarce? it would take a combination of insight, serious desire and from the sounds of it, divine intervention. Very sad.

  8. Raising children with these types of people is a nightmare. Ive been accused of an affair, ive been accused of beating her physically, mentally and emotionally. She took it to social media and had people openly bashing my character. She is currently trying to destroy me by any means possible. You know why? Because I have the information that would unmask her. I found out about her affairs, the children have told me things that if others knew would destroy the image she portrays , that only ignorant people believe is true. I have so many stories and crazy instances that its to much to even think about. I trusted her, I loved her and our children like crazy and forgave and forgave time and time again. Until she finally left me for a poor Bastard who has no idea what hes getting himself into.

  9. I can relate to all of you. But it was not a person that I married but my Mother’s partner. My Mother is a very co-dependent person and she found herself a Malignant Narcissist to love. I was 7 yrs old. The two of them were horrible and the manipulation that my mom’s partner used on her was profound. She would manipulate my mom into beating me and my brother and antagonize her and belittle everyone. My mom is now 57 and has no friends or family. there was a big blow out New Year’s eve 2014 and the family split. My husband, kids, grandmother and I do not speak to them anymore. It was a bad break and I really did blow up and kick them out of my house right there at the dinner table. But it took almost 2 years of therapy to gain the strength to put my boundaries and on that day She was really pushing my buttons and picking on me. So, I blow -up. I do miss my mom but have to say that getting her Partner out of my life and my kids life was the best thing I ever did. I pity my mom for being so weak and spending 27 years of her life with such an evil person. You can not change those types of people and you will not survive being with them. You need to leave and leave quickly…… Your own sanity is at stake. Good luck to all of you in your healing: it is a hard road but there is a light at the end of the tunnel

    1. D.ores, Welcome and thank you for sharing your story and your words of hope and encouragement. I am sorry for your experience. I find it so sad when I hear about how badly families can go and picture the child who was left to fend for themselves because the adult in their life didn’t. Dynamics like what you describe are so twisted and complicated, like a huge tangled up mess. It’s hard to say how something like that could ever get untangled but good for you for taking the initiative to get help and stick up for you and your children. Leaving can be a process of one foot in front of the other until you finally are free.

  10. I am slowly recovering from spending the past 20years in a relationship with a MN.We have children together and I spend all my energy now nurturing their damaged relationships and behaviours.Although exhausted,I feel more whole as a person than I have felt in decades.

    My time spent with MN left me feeling like less than an abridged version of myself.During periods of intense conflict,which became more regular over the years and lasted longer,I became an empty shell of a person,damned if I did or damned if I didn’t no matter the situation.It seemed in the end that I was taking up too much oxygen in his presence.

    He claimed relentlessly over the years that he was misunderstood and that I was punishing him passively by not adhering to his ways,his preferences,his desires,his opinions.That I was trying to drive him to an early grave by ignoring his pleas for compliance and dutiful action.Nothing I ever did would please him from what I wore,cooked,how I kept the house raised our children,talked to people,smiled for a photo.Yet he would claim that I was the only person in his life that found him difficult to relate to.
    MD maintains an excellent and admirable work persona,endearing himself to all in his presence.This facade must take an enormous amount of energy because as in the past most off time would be spent asleep or demanding compliance in all manner of contrived home maintenance duties that would end with obnoxious outbursts or full blown rage when his family would inevitably let him down.
    Now,when he sees the children they face broken promises of fabulous outings and adventures,but much material compensation with gifts,etc.
    Many of his old friends and even his family are aware of his often difficult personality,his incurable need to be always right,of his most informed and entitled opinion and his absolute intolerance of those who he deemed fall into the category of lesser being than he.But no one would ever dare take him on,put him in place or confront him on any display of sheer rudeness or disrespect.He had created an environment of fear within most of these old relationships.
    Now that he has left us it has been revealed that he has in fact been nurturing a newer,smarter more beautiful victim for his benefit.Their relationship was simmering for years but within a year of leaving his family in emotional turmoil and grappling with how to manage our fragile any seemingly broken egos,he is shining up his bachelor pad and planning OS travel with GF.

    He is oblivious to his constant thoughtless,careless actions against his family.
    He claims he understands he has hurt me but it was never his intention.
    I was explaining to him how unlovable and undesirable I felt as a result of his behaviours to me and his new relationship and his response was that many women had made advances towards him,he chose his new GF because she was special.More fool me for expecting an emotional response directed towards my feelings.
    I am learning to deal with this person with as much detached emotion as I can fake but the truth is that at times I am seething inside when I see him and want to punish him by blowing his cover of Mr suave,cool and collected by reminding him that I’ll never forget the foul abuse and relentless criticism he punished me with or that one false step in regards to our children would ensue a torrent of events to bring him to his professional knees.
    I want to feel free of his manipulative forces but remain tethered to him for the sake of our kids.Thank you for this opportunity to vent my story and anxieties.Knowing that I am not alone in my experience in that I had blind faith in this MN, does help me to feel less weird,gullible and generally stupid.

  11. A Malignant narcissist is a psychopath who sole purpose is to destroy you. He was my soul mate. My intuitions screamed he was a con man, gigolo, had a dark side and he was going to destroy me. I addressed these feelings with him and he never answered but would looped it back asking, “Is that what you think of me?” I then apologized for my negative thoughts and tell him how perfect he is. Within 6 mos. he had moved in my home. Within 10 mos. he was arrested for serial bank robbery. Case tossed out for lack of evidence. He insisted we get married. I was so in love with this fool, I believed all his lies, excuses and married him. 5 yrs. to end of statute of limitation, case was brought back to court, charged, found guilty with the help of his supposedly psycho x-wife ID testimony. She was also discarded cruelly with 4 young kids after 12 years. He was diagnosed with narcissism through the court. As his wife, I faithfully waited 13 yrs. for him. I never looked up narcissism as I knew it meant that he over loved himself which he had consistently told me how much he loves himself. I did not understand the depth and the magnitude of the disorder.
    Within 3 mos. of his release, he was cheating, making constant cruel criticisms, put downs, intimidation, degradation, crazy makings, gas lighting, manipulation, deception, mind games, projection, deflection, word salad, shock tactics, sex withholding, silent treatment, slander and pathological lying. He literally did all he could to destroy my sanity by consistently lying and reintegrating daily that I was crazy, need medicine and need to be institutionalized. His torturous mind fuck games left me traumatized, deteriorated, confused and disoriented and felt I was going crazy from him constant twisting and turning all conversations and blaming me. He either didn’t say it when he did, I never told him when I know I did or I must be imagining or delusional. He was so blatantly cruel saying he was going to take me over the brink of insanity or I should go kill myself. I was walking on egg shells, trying harder and harder to please him. The more I begged for attention, affection, quality time, sex, the colder he got. Nothing I did pleased him and he had succeeded to damage my self-esteem and self-confidence. I don’t understand why anyone would want to destroy someone for only loving them. When I confront him about his cheating, sleeping out, his OW texting how she could still feel him in her, he said I was sick and crazy for believing everything I read. He lied and denied and lied. It was that day I refused to let this MF destroy me. I screamed back that he was the one sick, not me and that he was a fucking psychopath. He asked “do you really believe that or are you just saying it to make me feel bad?” I said I really meant it. I still did not know what was happening and why he was deliberately hurting me for no reason. 1 mos. later, he said it was over. I begged and pleaded for us to fix our marriage. He said he had nothing to fix and moved out, saying he was bored and didn’t feel the same anymore.
    It has been the most painful and hellish experience of my life. This sub-human turned out to be a con artist, cheater and a dark entity who destroyed me mentally, emotionally, psychologically, financially and physically. This is when I turned to Google and looked up “No Soul.” There is was – Malignant Narcissism. He left me lifeless, joyless, no energy, off- balanced, disoriented, crippled with agoraphobia, confused and disassociated from my core self. I was in a comatose state for months with awful heartaches, panic attacks, depression and suicidal and homicide thoughts. He called every day guiding me through my pain and how to move on. Isn’t that insane? He was the only one that could fix me as I was addicted to the love of my life. I lost myself in him and wanted to die. My regret was not knowing the severity of the disorder as I would have known how to have handled or respond to him on his level.
    The discard should be a blessing instead I almost lost my mind and health and obsessing over him. I can’t get over this Mnarc/psychopath. What the hell is wrong with me? Since he moved, he has been so generous, kind and charming, back to his fake persona. He calls, text, visit, take me out, pays rent, calls me beautiful, says he’s my husband, I’m still his wife, he doesn’t want a divorce, he needs time to find himself, he left because I was hindering him (cheating), it’s his duty to take care of me, we’re not over, he misses me, he loves me, he don’t know why we broke up, he’s concern about me, get well, go out on dates, I’ll get over him soon, he still evaluating us, he doesn’t love the OW, she does not live with him, he doesn’t want her, he’ll do whatever as long as I’m taken care of, he regrets moving, he had stability with me, how can he help me, what do I need, he doesn’t know what he is going to do. I am so confused why he’s being generous and charming? I have to be nice when he calls/text since I need his help with the rent. He still, play mind games, manipulate, lie and tries to control me but now I stand firm and don’t back down. Sorry is his favorite word now for everything.
    I tried to tell him about NPD as he only knows as much as I did (nothing) and he still tells that he only loves himself. He said he knew I would be hurt at first about the breakup for about a couple of days and truly can’t understand why I am still sad and depressed after 2 mos. We have been together for 20 yrs. Recently, he told me he loves me and I told him he doesn’t know how to love me as he does not have any human emotion. He said “you’re talking to me as though I’m not a human, are you telling me I am not human.” Instead of calling him a predator, I told him he was a terminator, a machine with alien emotions. I felt bad afterward as I was hurting him with my words – not out of spite but out of love and pity. Why should I let him walk around hurting people and thinking everyone is psycho when he is the one crazy. He seems truly hurt that I called him a psychopath and doesn’t believe he has been abusive, hurtful, and believe his lies are truths. He doesn’t have the slightest idea that he is severely disordered even thought I have seen his demonic narcissistic rage and evil predatory stares. I feel sorry for him as he seems to have no knowledge that he is hurting me, other times, I can only feel my pain and want nothing to do with him. I continually asked myself, how could he do this to me? Not even an ounce of remorse, regret, empathy or compassion or gratitude for all I’ve done for him. I have wasted 20 years of my life being conned. Now, I am the psycho bitch just like his x-wife (at least she got revenge). I will eventually tell him about himself when I move and go no contact. I do not trust him because he is very vengeful and I do not know what he is capable of doing while he smiles in my face.
    Why doesn’t he want a divorce? We’ve been separated for four months. All I do is pity him and see him as an evil predator. I did not know these people exist. I am very nurturing, empathic, educated with a B.S. Why do I still cry and obsess over him? What is wrong with me? I have read everything about malignant narcissist/psychopath and know this man is dangerous, disordered, will not change and can’t be fixed? Nothing is clicking in my brains. He is a pathological liar and I do not trust him after all he has done to destroy me for no reason. I am filing for divorce as I know now I can never go back to him. I am feeling better from reading all the blogs and comments from other victims of this devastating abuse. It has helped me so much to finally be able to function. Now I just want the seldom heartaches to stop.

    1. Reading your post sounds like you were relating my story. Left after 28 years. Same exact behavior from my ex husband. Even his comments regarding Hus cheating, texting etc. I was also told I was crazy, paranoid looking for it. Abuse, neglect, w holding intimacy sex. Everything I mean everything to a T. Even the I can’t love you.. Calling after to keep me on hold in case it didn’t work out w his new gal. The only thing that helped me move on was no contact. His words couldn’t draw me in make me feel bad, or hurt me anymore. I finally freed myself from the hold he had in healing from the trauma strong and know it not you they are demonic in a sense.

      1. Jann, thanks for words of encouragement. I’m happy you are freed from his demonic grip. I can’t wait to get there. I am glad for this channel to get my feelings validated. No one really understands what we’ve been through. I don’t even talk to anyone about it anymore. One friend said, all humans have a conscience and that God can heal him, when I tried to explain it to her. He still pays the rent which gives him a degree of control over me. I am moving in a couple of months to another city and will do no contact to make him non-existent in my life. At the end, the OW text me calling herself a bitch and told me it was only a matter of time before she had my man, she’s a winner and I was a psycho bitch. I had to ask him, “What have you told this woman.” Funny, how karma works. Two days ago, he came by, gave me his phone to look at pictures. I saw a pic quote from her. It said, “I’m so in love with you, it makes me feel INSANE.” I thought “little does she know.” She claimed it and definitely deserved every bit of him.

    2. I am happy to hear you escaped that insanity and are now working on yourself. I went through the same trauma with my ex covert narc. I have never dealt with anything like this, I was just a caring, loving individual that he conned and tried his hardest to murder my soul. Luckily I didn’t marry this person and was out of it within a year. Friends and family can’t relate because they have experienced anything like this so its difficult to get validation unless you speak with someone who has dealt with a narcissist/sociopath. Some people ask, why did you allow this?, but until you are placed in that situation its easy for anyone to say that. I grew up in a functional family household, prior to meeting him I was in a 12 year relationship. He met me a vulnerable time in my life and took this and ran with it. They are truly wolves and sheep clothing. The covert’s put on this façade in the beginning and in front of others. Once they have you hooked that use all their manipulative tactics where you begin to ignore your intuition and play their game. Not knowing you are part of a game. Its really mind boggling. I would wish this torture on my enemy. The narc had me in a state of depression, I felt like I lost myself trying to please this individual. My wounds are fresh and I’m on the road to recovery. I have gone no contact but still keep getting baiting emails from this psycho. Like you mentioned they are oblivious and act amazed when you tell them how you felt about their actions or words but I think this is act because they have this devious smirk on their face when they are confronted. I didn’t know anything about PD’s so my ignorance was bliss to them. Now I am educating myself as much as possible so that I can never ignore these read flags again. Like everyone else its inevitable that we all will go through idealization, devaluing, and discarding. Recycle until you are completely destroyed. Goodluck to everyone’s recovery we need to share our stories so that other victims can remove themselves for their horrific situation.

  12. Dear Pat,,,,,,, here is a short answer to the ” why why whys” that are in your post. You are addicted to this subhuman, he hooked you deep and appealed to something deep inside of you, an unmet need. You attached to that because it answered an inner calling of sorts, a need for love, companionship, many things are possible. Then it went away and you miss and crave the feeling it created in you. It takes time and NO contact with him and I mean ZERO contact for this to ever get better.
    I’m sorry, please know that I have been in your shoes. Run do not walk away from him.

    1. Thanks Puddle for reading my comment. I know it was pretty long. I am so new to this. I have been unhappy and abused all my life. I did not know my mother until I was 10. Grandmother raised me from infant to 5 yrs. Then, I lived with my uncle who physical abuse from 5-10. I ran away from the severe beatings. Came to U.S to live with my Mom at 10 and she was so emotional cold, controlling and unloving. There is no bond between us. She made my life a living hell with verbal abuse even after I moved out at age 19 until today. I have finally accepted that for whatever reason she can never love me. She really affected me because I wanted her to love me as I’m her only child and would do anything for her. I only have limited contact with her as she was affecting my health. First boyfriend was physically abusive/cheater from 18-23. Kids’ father was physical abusive from 25-33. At 35, I met Mr. Wonderful – intelligent, confident, handsome, smooth, charming, amazing sex, loving, caring, treated me so good and loved me so much (the only reason I waited 13 yrs). He was the last person, I think would hurt me. It devastated me as it was unbelievable. I went into shock. I was traumatized. The entire relationship was an illusion, a mirage, a lie, a scam and a fight/flight roller coaster fuck your mind ride.

      I stopped living when he was incarcerated. I spent over $45,000 sending, spending and visiting him near and far, kept up with his attorneys, studied case laws, wrote appeals and motions when public defender duty was over. I lost weight, looked deadly and walked around like a zombie filled with depression and loneliness. It almost killed me. I did not seek mental help as referred by doctors and employer. My only joy was seeing and hearing from him. He promised to make things easier for, help me and make me happy when he gets out. I put him first before me, kids and God. As soon as he got released he told me he doesn’t owe me anything, I didn’t do anything for him, he was happy in prison and I was a idiot for spending all that money on him, and then got up, cheated and moved out within six mos. He was right, I was an idiot for loving and trusting him.

      Even though I had a very unhappy family life, I did not let it affect me. I was happy at work, school and with friends. I had high self-esteem and confidence, outgoing, funny, interest, hobbies working making good money, taking care of home and 3 kids by myself. My uncle has turned around 180 degree and wasn’t so militant and we have a good relationship with hugs, jokes and love. The two abusive boyfriends became my friends. My mom never changed. I was over the past and not holding any grudges when I met him so I wasn’t dwelling on any any unhealed wounds to attract him. I know he hated his mother and did not speak to her for years. He lied that she had had abandoned his father with 7 kids (lie). She did leave for another man but she took the kids. I forced him to connect with his mother and she even came to our wedding.

      I know I have to work on myself now. I have to forgive myself for ignoring the red flags, set up strong boundaries, not trust so much, stop being a people pleaser, learn to say no and put myself first. I was weak and did not even know it. My reality was a fantasy world of only good and caring people and had no idea evil people existed in human form such as him. He definitely woke me up to the real world. He saw me as his enemy and a rival to be destroyed. He definitely deserves an Oscar for his brilliance in fooling, exploiting, lying and putting up a front for all these years. It is no fault of mine he reciprocates loyalty, caring, giving and loving him with rejection, abuse, hate and disdain. I can only give him a hand for being a scumbag, a low-life, con-artist, a fraud and leave him to his eternal faith.

      1. Pat, I’m so glad to hear that your eyes are open. That is really the first step forward even though there may be many steps backwards. Once you see them for what they are, and i mean REALLY see (do as much reading and studying as possible) there is no going back to the la la land they had you tricked into. You may back slide but you will soon come out of that slip because you will never see them the same way again. For me, a couple of things came together at one time and then he did something and it was a done deal. Then came the hardest part, digesting the poison he had left in me, swallowing the bitter jagged pill of reality. I’ll never know the totality of it and it’s probably a good thing but I sure know enough, It’s just so hard to really comprehend these creatures. They are pathetic. I always find them very childish but they are too dangerous to be called childish……………but they are. I do not feel sorry for him in the least, I used to and that kept me hanging on emotionally. Not one blip of feeling sorry for him now and i wish him nothing but misery in his pathetic existence. That may sound wrong to some but that does not concern me either anymore.
        Hang in there Pat and dig deep. You have to advocate for yourself and seek validation and support in this type of resource because people can not understand this if they have not been through it. I couldn’t have, until now.

        1. Puddle, I have been reading some great comments from you written in 2013. Your advice is always solid. Since it’s been 2+ yrs., can you tell me if you are still hurting, remembering him or thinking about him? I can’t see myself feeling this way for the next 2 yrs. My heart can’t take this pain any longer. I want to be so over him now. You are right, there is no going back to the la la land. It’s so hard to accept that he is wired in such a demented way and there is no cure. I’m still so devastated, my heart hurts. If my heart was weak, I would be dead and he wouldn’t give a shit. I don’t blame you for wishing him nothing but misery. I too want to feel sorry for him but his actions are deliberate and cruel, so I wish him the same. It hurts so bad knowing there is no turning back, no second chance to be with him. I have no choice but to divorce him to get over this terrible pain in my soul.

          1. Kel, it’s hard to explain. Yes it hurts still but it’s different then it was. I don’t mean different in the hurts less kind of way but it hurts different. In the beginning I didn’t understand what I do now and I missed him more than I can put into words. Anything I ever wrote here or elsewhere are only words trying to describe something deeper than words can go. Same during the time we were together, the pain and confusion I felt over the way he was was something beyond being able to describe even though I tried my best to describe it to him. I didn’t understand how someone could not bend over backwards to make someone they love happy and feel loved. I was basing that on how I felt about him. I had to keep holding myself back in the relationship because I was told to let HIM come to me and not to over give to him. Whatever….
            Then once things started falling into place from what I was reading, learning from people in his past, etc. the real hurt started in the realization of how he really is/was, all a joke of a sham. Putting that together and then reviewing the entire relationshi* with 20/20 vision was pretty bad Kel.
            Ok, now? It’s hard to describe what it feels like now but they say you reach a place of indifference and I guess I’m close. That does not mean I forgive him or want to be anywhere near him. That will never happen, he is disgusting to me and a pathetic looser mommys boy. But I guess I’ve accepted that it is what it is, my life goes on and I thank GOD I’m not cut from the same cloth he is. I also pitty anyone else who gets hooked by him in the future and wish I could stop that from happening.
            But the feeling sorry for him is certainly over. I don’t feel sorry for him, he likes himself the way he is. He told me that in the beginning and I didn’t know what that meant, like so many other things he “told me”.

          2. Pat, I know your pain and you said something significant….” It hurts so bad knowing there is no turning back, no second chance to be with him.” It’s the final realization that it is O V E R, it’s a hard hard place to be but you will not stay there. It will SEEM like it for a while, please know that it will but you will not. In the beginning I had others tell me that it would get better, it would change, that there is a light at the end of the tunnel but you can’t see it till you get around the curve. I could not fathom that they were right but they were. I’m happy to report that I am not only around the curve but out of the tunnel. I would be lying to say that my life is better for the experience and that I forgive him and thank him for the lessons I’ve learned. I’ve tried to say those words in the past but that was false speaking on my part.
            I have let go of the POS though, never miss him EVER now. Just wish I could forget the whole debacle, that’s my only regret at this point….I just wish I could erase it from my life and my mind. Maybe next year?

  13. Hi Pat and Puddle,

    Puddle, I think you meant to address Pat in your prior post. Not sure.

    It takes a while, Pat. They hurt their targets in a very insidious way, on a very deep level. The P who targeted me honed in on two features of my life that caused me pain. The pain had calcified, was dormant. He carefully brought that hardened part of me to the surface, nurtured me, ‘loved’ me. The little girl who had such a struggle with her own father, receiving the mixed message that, “your father treats you badly but really loves you,” started to heal. The woman who married a wonderful man who lived her but couldn’t show it, in the smallest gestures (another mixed message) began to heal.

    Then he pushed me off a cliff and as I fell, I could hear his laughter echoing. A friend of mine engaged him a short time later. He described me in an appalling way, and told her how he severed all connections with me and how my pain and confusion were a great source of merriment to him.

    If she had not presented me with these emails I would never have known for sure what he was. In retrospect it’s clear. He dropped many many clues about his psychopathology but I didn’t clue in. He was testing my knowledge if the subject.

    It was those emails that erased all cognitive dissonance for me. But pain…omg…they tear every emotional scab off of you and leave you bleeding.

    My story had a happy ending. My husband and I, though incompatible, in some key areas, due to his atypical relating style, became as close as we could possibly be. My husband became very protective, much more involved. He passed away suddenly, several months ago, knowing and hopefully feeling loved respected, too.

    On the other hand, the P’s wife wiped out their bank account, sold her house, left the country and seized jointly owned property they owned in a foreign country. He has hit the bottle, is completely alone. He is sixty years old and it’s all caught up to him. This is pretty standard for people like this. They often crash and burn with no new victims to experiment on. Do I feel sorry for him? No. I have to admit I am happy that the universe extracts justice, some how, some way.

    I only think about him when I correspond on this blog. That’s what happens. Eventually, you just don’t think about them anymore. There is hope and happiness at the end of what seems like a very dark tunnel. You can only appreciate it on hindsight but you will get there.

      1. LisaO..My condolences on your husband passing. May you find peace and strength. I know how painful that can be to lose someone you love and adore. Your path got what he deserved.

        LisaO & Puddle.. Thank you for words of support and comfort. Yes, I have learned a valuable lesson to follow my instinct from here-forth. I ignored my intuitions, red flags and did not connect his sick jokes and games to be deadly serious. Twice he put a pillow over my face suffocating me where I could not breathe and claimed he was playing with me. Thank God he’s out of my life. I realized now he wasn’t playing, it was a subtle attempt to hurt me. Anyone that intentionally hurt someone on such a deep psychology level and doesn’t care about the damage they are causing, has to be sick in the head and dangerous. Like Puddle said, I just wish I could erase it from my life and my mind.

        I’m happy you both have survived the extreme pain of letting go and moving on to a healthier and stronger you. Four mos. ago, I thought I was going to die. I cried out in agony that I just can’t make it but God had a different plan for me. My survivor instinct kicked in and refused to let this Nobody destroy me. He thought I was finished and told me to voluntarily commit myself in a psyche ward. What a fucking loser. He will as Lisa O said, crash and burn.

        There is an old site I am viewing with some good resources to guide me on my journey in understanding the monster and what I need to do to disengage from evil. It gives all the answers.

        Articles: Why Psychopathy is Incurable: Nothing Can Fix a Psychopath, The Psychopath’s Emotions: What Does He Feel?., Erased But Not Forgotten: Psychopaths and Emotional Memory, Breaking the Love Addiction: Disengaging from the Psychopath, A Painful Incredulity: Psychopathy and Cognitive Dissonance, The Two Phases of Mourning: The Rational and the Emotional,etc

  14. Can someone tell me why narcissist (diagnosed) apologized to me for discard. Called me wifey, how much he loves me, he was sorry for cheating/leaving, he was wrong, it was his fault and he wished he had better communicated with me as he thought I was unhappy(begging for time, attention and affection). He said he was unhappy and bored (he worked 24/7 and was never around). I am confused now as they never apologize. I almost died/went insane with how this malignant narc d/d me and went on his merry way cheating and living life. I’m still suffering and lost since abandoned 5 mos ago and now he is saying it was a mistake on his part. I know I cannot go back after the manipulation, gaslighting, shock trauma, crazy making, madness, selective memory and mind games. Trying to get over him is so painful as I still love him (married 20 yrs/he was incarcerated for 13 yr). Sometimes he is so charming I don’t want to believe he has NPD but I have seen the evil Jekyll and Hyde. Why did he apologize?

    1. Hi Pat, the only person who knows why he does anything, including his “apology” is him. It’s probably some self serving lip service that means nothing, nada, zip and it sounds like he included a few tid bits of information that would assure that you would be hurt even more than you already are.
      My guess is that it’s a trick or ploy of some sort and you should count yourself lucky he is out of your life. That WILL take time and I don’t mean to minimize how painful this is for you. I’ve been there as have all of us here. It hurts so much in the beginning but please know, it will get better. Getting over one of these entanglements is no different than stopping any addiction, it takes time and complete abstainence. The one difference is the emotional component but that does get better with time. You will get through this but if you remain in contact with him you will be leaving the door open for more hurt and confusion from him.
      Hang in there Pat, everyone here understands.

      1. It sounds like he is trying to lure you back in the web for his own …………whatever? He is bored, lonely, wants sex, fill in the blank. These leopards do NOT change their spots without a HUGE amount of help and sincere effort.

        1. Puddle, I asked him why he did this to me: stabbed me in the heart, destroyed my soul, damaged my trust in humanity, took my innocence when he was supposed to be loving me, protecting me, being a husband and best friend and he said it’s not like he did it intentionally. Since he wished we had communicated more, I reminded him how I begged him not to leave, begged for us to work on marriage, told him I would change and be more submissive and he said he wasn’t going to make any changes. I even had accepted that. When I told him I would do anything and asked what can I do to save the marriage, instead of a mature discussion, he told me to bark like a dog. I told him if that’s what it takes, then he could leave. I still had not linked his behavior to diagnosed NPD. Today, I was twisting in his words of apology but reality hit real fast when he denied ever asking me to bark like a dog as it would be degrading and told me I imagined it as he did not remember saying it. With his denial, he assured again that he’s insane. I told him I felt as if I was dealing with someone who has early Alzheimer (age 52).

          I always feel like I am in twilight zone with him not remembering what he said or did in hours, days, weeks. It’s like I’m dealing with two different people with each one not knowing what the other said, heard or did. Could it be whatever Hyde said, Jekyll doesn’t know as he sounds sincere in his denials and not remembering (ex. shows pics or tells me things like it’s the first time). Is his memory selective or is he just lying, denying or really can’t remember? Puddle, I only take his calls b/c he still pays rent. I can’t wait to get rid of him forever and have N/C.

          1. Pat, Ugh……….I can relate to the Jekyll Hyde changes…………these people make you crazy this way. I can’t tell you for sure WHAT is wrong with this man because I’m not qualified to, all I can do is tell you what is sounds or feels like to me. When you get really calm inside and sit quietly with yourself, by yourself,,,,,,forget about wrong or right,,,,,,what comes to your mind about him? What are your internal thoughts telling you if you disregard the “but this and but that” after thoughts?
            I can’t tell you how much “sincere” bull crap I swallowed out of Spathtard’s lying mouth. Countless declarations of countless different aspects of love and commitment. He sounded sincere or I wouldn’t have believed him and I wouldn’t have stayed. They know how to do this, believe me! and I doubt if he forgets anything, if he does it’s more than likely selective memory loss 🙂
            I think you need a little more time to really examine some information, do some reading and research, etc,,,,,all the while keep your eyes wide open. For me, the pieces fell together one by one and it was heartbreaking to know what the truth of the situation really was. SO many things that seemed odd during the time I was with him revealed themselves for what they truly were once I was away from him and my eyes opened and head cleared and I got my feet back under me.
            I’m SO sorry you are going through this Pat but you will be ok in time. That is the most important thing for people to realize. There IS a light at the end of the tunnel but you can’t see it till you get around the bend………and you will. Stick to your guns girl, this man is not someone who is good for you and you deserve much better.

    2. Hello Pat, and welcome. The ONLY time a narcissist will apologize is when he wants something from you.

      Now that you see him for what he actually is, please don’t let him bamboozle you. Yes, they can be charming to others when they want something, but that is a mask over the real jerk underneath. Almost everyone here has been through some version of relationship hell, so we can give you encouragement, sometimes bits of advice such as “this idea worked for me, maybe you might find it useful.” Keep reading and studying, Peace and hope from Elva

      1. Thanks Elva. Thanks for the encouragement. He sounds so sincere. I won’t be bamboozled again in his evil psychotic trap. I must be getting better. For the first time, he called and asked if he could come by and I said “No” Wow, I just don’t ever want to see him again. He has hurt me beyond words can say for no reason at all. I served him well like a idiot to be discarded like trash. I told him I will be filing for divorce and he said he wasn’t ready for that. I told him I was. He said he would sign. We don’t own anything together so it will be simply and it will be over. I wish I had never ever met him – so many wasted years and mental anguish on a con artist.

        1. Hi Pat — oh does that sound familiar. You are lucky that you don’t jointly own anything with him. Stay strong — he may try to delay or put obstacles in the way of your divorce. There will be some good days and some bad days for you. Keep reading, stay busy, ask for help here when you need some encouragement. I like to start my day with prayer, and a visit to — helps me to stay positive even when our winter weather hands us another grey day. Peace and hope from Elva

  15. Hi Pat, so sorry that you have this man trying to get back into your life. Five months isn’t a long time and I do hope you can stay on track. I too, like others relate to the Dr Jekyll and Hyde and it is a constant confusion to try and really figure it all out. Just remember Hyde is the reality…Jekyll is the cover-up! I wish you strength to stay free of this man and I was only just reading this blog an hour ago, so I hope it’s okay to post a link about this very subject. You might find this site helpful as it lists all the tactics they use. Stay strong Pat! 🙂

    1. Thanks Elva and Tori for your support as most normal people don’t understand the severity of the pain and brainwashing. My heart just need to catch up with what my mind already knows. There is just a lingering pain in my heart which I need to overcome. Tori, thanks for the link. I have read everything on NPD and won’t stop until this heartache goes away. I am so encouraged by the strength of other people who have survived this painful psychological abuse. Never in my life would I have anticipated such cruelty from someone close to me.

      1. Hi Pat — I just went back and read your original post. How awful for you! (and awful is not near bad enough to describe what you have been through) And what a loser he is!!!! Stay strong, you are headed in the right direction. It is so true that ordinary people simply cannot understand the pain, because they have never been there. Even many mental health therapists don’t really understand; they can be misled and manipulated by some of these losers.

        I pray daily for Dr. Simon, and for all the readers and posters here, that God will help each one to work through their problems. Peace and hope from Elva

        1. Thanks Elva. I too find strength from reading blogs and comments from other survivors. Today, for some reason, I am overtaken with grief of knowing that I was conned, used and abused. Can’t shake the gloom and doom realization that my marriage is over, beyond repair, no reconciliation, no second chance. The d/d caused such tremendous pain with disregard for my life. I am still flabbergasted that I did not know this type of person existed. Never even heard about NPD abuse once in 56 yrs. Even though he was diagnosed with NPD 14 yrs ago, never looked it up once as I thought it meant over-loving oneself. A friend said it was probably good that I didn’t know because I would have adjusted my behavior and accept the abuse and she is right. I would have done anything to keep him. Where is my self-esteem. Instead, I was defiant in his criticisms and control, rebelled against his cheating, requested respect and emotional support and demanded equality and human interactions. I now accepted that he is who he is..a psychopath malignant narc. So why do I still hold on the thought that he deliberately sabotaged our relationship, intentionally destroyed my soul and damaged my health with remorse or care. Why do I even still care, love him, miss him, wish he was different even after knowing and seeing him in his full narcissism. The worst part is there were so many intuitions and red flags ignored, I feel I did it to myself.

          1. Hi Pat — Hang in there, stay strong. Don’t let yourself fall into the trap of “if only I had done this or that, things might have worked out better” — it really does hurt when you lose what you have tried so hard to build up. And probably he had some good qualities, like my ex did. But when you look behind the good qualities, it’s a cesspool. We are all pulling for you, it will take time, pray for help when you feel you are breaking, and remember, time heals all wounds, and time wounds all HEELS!! Peace and hope from Elva

    2. Tori, I like that the article included this: “He justifies this by saying that his abuse/violence is not as bad, not as severe, not as frequent as that of a ‘real abuser’. Or if he never uses violence, he prides himself on not hitting a woman. Meantime ignoring the fact that he’s psychologically controlling her.”
      Spathtard never physically harmed me but he was doing very deep damage right from the start.I actually kicked him in the a** one time! Not that I’m proud of that or approve of what I did but I was not playing any sort of game with him or manipulating ANYthing.

      1. Puddle that was a section that stood out for me too! He said to me he wasn’t an “abuser” or a “wife batterer” and he really believed that! Scary to think that he’s out there with another woman and believes that he’s not a violently abusive man. And yes, the psychological controlling, emotional manipulation is all abusive! I believe that anyone using such behaviours always has the potential for physical violence especially if they feel they are losing control when their partner’s start to put up boundaries or call them out on their behaviour. I think that’s important for all who are involved with CD’s to keep in mind. Never think it can’t happen or they won’t be like that! Sadly too often that kind of thinking has ended in shocking situations.

        1. Tori, I know these things can alway go violent even if they have not…….yet. The same attitudes behind actual physical violence are opperating in any type of abuse. And, he might not have physically harmed me directly but my physical being has been affected in many ways, I barely recognize myself. It’s unreal.
          Hi Tori! 🙂

          1. Hi Puddle! 🙂 I completely concur with what you’re saying! Emotional and psychological abuse does do just as much harm, if not more. For me I have some issues with knowing he is physically violent, so that makes him dangerous toward me no matter how much time has gone by. He will always be a physical threat and I will always have that in the back of my mind if I should ever see him in the flesh again and I hope I won’t but there will be a day that I will have to see him again for some reason. Yet the emotional and psychological stuff has really messed me up too, just as if it had been physical. It’s all violence really!
            Actually I had a trigger last night through watching a movie…Before I go to sleep! If anyone should watch it be prepared…I was far too into it before I realised it was a violent controlling relationship type Spath… at first I was interested because it was dealing with amnesia and I am studying that at the moment. Besides I like Colin Firth! But it is triggering so thought I would mention it as one to avoid if you’ve been in that situation.

      2. Puddle thanks for reminding me that “There IS a light at the end of the tunnel but you can’t see it till you get around the bend………and you will.” I have no choice to “stick to my guns” as “this man is not someone who is good for you and you deserve much better.” Thanks for all your inspiration. It’s rough but like everyone else I will one day get through it. No turning back, too much damage has been done especially went he moved out. He cannot even be a friend. I am just trying to rushing the process to get the poison out my system.

        1. Pat, who wouldn’t wantvto Rush the process and get the poison out of them?? I don’t blamevyou a bit. I have thought so many times, I wish I could just erase it all from my memory…… ALL of it!

          1. It would be so good if we could erase all that hurt and pain. When I think I wasted thirteen years with that B, I get so upset. He effectively stole a chunk of my life…aside from the birth of my son which is such a huge blessing the rest is a nightmare, worst of all in the end all you can have are the bad traumatic things that happened. You have to remembered those in order to keep yourself for falling for the fake nice person they pretended to be. All the bad things cancel those good times out! He was a selfish, violent brute end of story!

  16. I have a co worker that I have been dealing with for over 7 months with no help from supervisors or management. Things have gotten so bad the I was left with no choice but to start videoing her with my cell phone. She even went as far as to call law enforcement on me recently and the video I had is what saved me from being charged with a crime. Now the Director of my organization is trying to find a way to pin this mess on me when I have been the victim this whole time. I have spoken with an attorney and I have filed 2 different grievances, one for hostile work environment and the other for not providing me with a safe working environment which is their mission statement. This woman who happens to be younger than I am definitely has a superior attitude towards me and is never wrong in her mind. She even yells over top of me when I try to explain to her what the problem is. There is no dealing with this person. She is aggressive and is more consumed with her own personal life while at work than doing her work duties. Now I’m being harassed even more by having my friends on Face Book screenshot my posts and are giving them the one’s I have grievances against and are trying to use them against me but all they say is how bad I’m being bullied at work.

  17. My name is Sherry this is very hard for me to admit what has happened to me.I am in such a despert state I just want to die.I have been married to a malignant narcissist for 38 years I am embarrassedI I to say that I never had a clue to what was napping to me.he was so good at manipulation that he had my own children abuse me. My children are in their 30’s now they will not have anything to do with me unless I follow their rules and pretend like nothing has happened. My husband has made it look like I am mentally ill and he is sacrificing himself to take care of me. In past years I have tried to leave I was put in jail and told”you are going to stay there until you listen to me” I even called my mother and she told me not to call her again that night. Her cover-up was to come up a week later and told me I should have left. She was not going to help me because I had 4 boys. I had never even had a ticket. I have tried before to tell my story but of course nobody would believe me. I am totally dependent on him I am 55 He moved me up to Las Vegas about 22 years ago I begged him to move his family home that this town was evil his reply”no I am having to much fun”. I have no friends no family nobody so I am stuck exactly where he has wanted to be, taking care of him. i can’t even begin to tell you the abuse I have taken thinking it was all my fault.

    1. Sherry I am so sorry to hear your story. It sounds like you are in a desperate situation. I would urge you to seek out some help from women’s services in your area if you can to get some counselling and help. They understand the dynamics at play in these relationships and if there is one thing I have learned through my own experience is that you need help from others when navigating these relationships. You are a wise woman, you know what is happening and by reaching out you have courage and strength inside you. Never doubt that about yourself. These CD types love to cause confusion and self doubt. Sometimes you need the help from strangers because immediate family is also wrapped up in the confusion created by the character disturbed person in your life, they create a false facade that others can’t see as clearly as you do. Please do seek some help, as then you can get stronger and make the right decisions for yourself. I wish you all strength to move ahead and know that you can vent here whenever you wish safely and among others who have been there. Take care Sherry.

    2. Hi Sherry! I only read your post today my heart goes out to you! I hope you’re in a better place now?! I’m also 55. I’ve been married for 41 yrs.!!! (Counselors diagnosis this year) to a covert narcissist sociopath! You name it I’ve been through physical, emotional, psychological, verbal, and financial abuse! The endless lies, deceit, blame shifting, control, manipulation, gas lighting, throwing under the bus, cheating, silent treatments for months at a time, such cruel and evil actions towards me, I’m a Christian and it’s only with Gods love, grace and protection that I haven’t gone insane! I knew there was something different about our relationship, but didn’t quite know what it was till I started researching 3.5 years ago and read Dr Simon’s book In Sheep’s Clothing so much of what was happening in my life was in the book, It blew me away!!! I was forced into this marriage as a child bride! The psychological abuse started 2nd week of our marriage being so young I had no clue what was happening! There were 3 in this marriage my husband his mother and me, she was a controlling and manipulative covert narcissist who knew no boundries! I knew there was something not quite right about the relationship between them after doing sooo much researching and reading I now know he was her emotional husband! Yes people wonder how can you stay in an abusive marriage this long?! I come from such a small community where everyone knows you and all about your business, where divorce is frowned upon and the longer you’re together the harder it is to leave! With 2 covert narcissists constantly controlling and manipulating you your head is spinning you’re in a survival mode daily! I’ve kept my abuse so secretive and hidden that even our children didn’t know! He would wear his mask in front of people, but when no one was around it came off I saw the ugliness and evil that he was capable of!The bruises would always be below the waist or hidden by clothing so family and friends had no idea! I’ve tried everything under the sun to fix this marriage from self help books, videos, cd’s, date nights, 9mos. of classes, individual and some couples counseling…I became so broken emotionally and have soo many health issues now!!! I’ve recently started sharing with a few friends and family members about my abuse and they say NO WAY! HE’S SO NICE AND QUIET, it’s hard to believe! A few months ago he went into a rage I locked myself into the bedroom he was trying to break the door down and I feared for my safety so I finally got the courage and called the police! By the time they arrived he was in the shop on the property, didn’t arrest him just had a talk with him and told him to stay away from the house! He been living there since. He’s cut me off financially now! For the first 3 mo. he kept texting about making up I haven’t responded to a single one! He hasn’t texted me for a month now. I’m trying no contact, but need to have a conversation about selling the house and going our separate ways…image is everything to him so I kinda know separating with him is going to be hell to pay because people in the community thought we had a perfect marriage and I said cause I worked so hard to make it look that way! I just want have a happy peaceful life!

      1. Old Soul Empath,

        You said a lot and described what’s been happening at the outset of this long relationship.
        First off, you sound to appear to be in perfect understanding of what has happened at the outset of this marriage, the relationship of him and his mother, then the relationship of you and them. I applaud you for reading these articles and getting the knowledge you needed to understand what’s happened. You’ve got a grip on it and are on your way to finding that peace.
        There is so much for you to do now.
        Do you have a job?
        Have you got access to bank accounts? You say he cut you off financially. Are you not able to get funds from the bank accounts?
        To leave him, you’ll need money. You need a job, any job.
        The savings accounts need to be frozen so he doesn’t wipe them out, and believe me, he will. He’ll take out that money and hide it.
        I applaud you for going as little contact as you can, and for not giving into his BS about making up.
        You’re entitled to half the pension, savings, and assets. You’ll most probably need an attorney unless you’ve he’s willing to be upfront, honest and ready to let you go, which I’m highly doubting due to his character issues.
        You need an attorney, one who understands how to deal with a CD person who lies, etc. The attorney situation can get out of hand to and court system becoming a beast to deal with.
        I’m so sorry. Take care of yourself the best you can, eat well, take meds if your emotional health becomes intolerable. You’re in for divorce hell as I term it. But what is on your side is that you know him well, should be able to predict how he’ll respond to things (the opposite of what a normal person would do – every time). Knowing how he has, you know to deal with him as a CD, not your average Joe.
        Write again to update on what’s going on with each step as we can help you through this. It’s too broad to get it all in one post.
        By the way, I’m finally finding peace after a 25+ marriage and a nearly three year divorce.
        When you file and he knows you’re leaving, he will want you to pay the price for it. This may be your time to be covert, getting things in order before he knows you’re filing. I’ll have to find another old post on this to paste and copy. There are so many things you need to do.

        1. Hi Lucy,
          Thank you for your response! This sight has been so helpful for me I’m soo glad for for everyone’s input of great info and support!
          Yes I’ve been researching and reading for 3.5 years now on the narcissistic personality and abuse that I’ve experienced! I now have some knowledge and info. about it! No I don’t have a job now! My health has been deteriorating for quite awhile now! I’ve had knee pain and issues for 23 years! The cartilage is worn out it’s now bone on bone!!! I’ve recently applied for social security disability benefits, but was denied! They suggested I apply for SSI which I haven’t started yet.

          My husband is self employed and I never had access to his account! We had a joint account together where he would deposit just enough to pay the monthly bills, but as things kept getting worse and worse in the relationship he slowly started transferring all the personal accounts into his business account and paying bills from there I would constantly have to ask him to deposit in the joint acc. for groceries and gas! He had some cash in the safe, but I had no access to it so when he needed to come back in the house right after the incident for his computer I made a deal with him he can get his computer only if he gives me some money to live on…it wasn’t much it’s pretty much all gone! There’s no savings account to speak of!
          And when I wouldn’t respond to his texts about making up he took out his chainsaw and butchered our beautiful hedge! The hedge was about 10-11 ft.high, 7 ft. wide green thru out the year and lots of privacy between the neighbors! In the years past I used to do most of the yard work and lately do to my health issues I’d show him how to trim it. He completely cut all the branches and leaves off on the sides and top down to 4ft.high and 2ft.wide just left bare sticks now!!! I was in shock! I cried, but I didn’t go outside cause that’s what he wanted me to do is come out so he can start a conversation with me! That was one of his tactics to get my attention! And I know he’s going to try something different again to get me to talk to him!!!
          I have picked up the papers for legal separation, but will need some help with filling them out.
          Oh my goodness Lucy 3 years of going thru a divorce?!?!?! Kuddos to you! I don’t think I can deal with his BS anymore! I don’t take any kind of medication for my health issues or depression cause anything the doctor prescribes my body rejects I get a side affect to everything! I’m trying to heal my body with natural supplements now. I feel like I haven’t slept since I married him, but now with him out of the house I don’t walk on eggshells anymore and thank God have been getting some sleep!
          You’re right sometimes we need to do things covertly, but that doesn’t come naturally for us…Thanx again:)

      2. Old Soul,

        I understand and going to try to keep this short. I understand everything you have written and at this stage, have heard this same scenario repeated over and over. Please give heed to what Lucy just advised. Above all, don’t let him know what you are thinking and note, who you may think you can trust today (friends and family) today, can and may well be your enemies tomorrow. For now it is better to say Nothing….

        Getting prepared and going through what you are describing takes preplanning and much thought.

        For now, make sure you delete all your history and if need be change all your passwords and designate an email address specifically to this or a a fictitious topic. Also, use aliases. Its not an easy process to divorce a CDN, the CDN are basically the same although each scenario is different and can cause confusion. Remember, confusion is the main tool of Satan.

        On this blog, many are willing to help and share their knowledge and experience. Please continue to post and ask questions, as we get to know one another we will be better equipped to help.

        Above all, know you are welcomed.
        God Bless and be safe.

        1. Thank you BTOV, for your advice and welcoming me!

          I feel like that’s whats happening ( family and friends) are not supportive like I thought they would be! I have been secretive for sooo long about my abusive marriage…when I started sharing with a couple of friends they asked why did I keep quiet for sooo long?! they kept saying you need to expose him, don’t keep it hidden…and some of the people I did share it with are now distancing them selves?! GO FIGURE?!
          I don’t have a social life anymore and feel so isolated now!
          He’s not in the house now and we have separate computers can he still find out what websites I’ve been on?
          Thanx again
          God bless you 🙂

          1. Old Soul,

            He can do a Google Search and possibly find your username if you use your real name.

            I do understand all the problems involved when the spouse is self-employed. I had that same issue. If he’s dishonest, he’s most probably dishonest with his business dealings accountings as well.

            You’re going to have to figure out how to file taxes, whether it benefits you better filing separate married or jointly.

            My X tried to stick me with a tremendous tax burden for a year that he withdrew a large amount of money out of the IRA (in his name solely) and didn’t pay taxes on it. He gambled (and other) it away and tried to convince me it would behoove me to file jointly, there fore saving US money, and my stupid attorney suggested I do this. I resisted, refused to file any more taxes with the lying jackass, upon advice of my accountant, and filed separate married. I’m not saying this is what you need to do, but in my case, it saved me tens of thousands of dollars. So be SURE of what he’s done with his IRA and other accounts that involved a penalty before you attach your name to his regarding taxes or loans or anything else.

            If you can, find the tax returns. I didn’t have any of them because he kept all that.

            Too bad you didn’t get the opportunity to backup everything on his computer before he took it.

            Just know that he surely is going to lie about his income.

            You need to go to the banks wherever there are joint accounts and procure bank statements. Once he takes your name off of an account you can’t get the records without court action. Time is of the essence getting things done. He’s going to be busy covering things up and draining accounts.

            I’m sorry you’re going through this. I learned some of these things on my own, some of them too late.

          2. Old Soul

            Friends or acquaintances can be full of bad advice as they don’t fully understand what you are dealing with.

            With your health issues, if you’ve got good health insurance coverage, now would be the time to get these issues dealt with, as once you are divorced the insurance may no longer cover you.
            Your husband can’t drop you off the insurance till you’re divorced, but he may try.

  18. Sherry, welcome to this blog and I honestly can’t say anything any better than what Tori just posted to you. You will find support, understanding and encouragement here but you also need the same thing where you are. A support group through a domestic violence shelter would be the place to look first. You can also contact Dr. Simon directly through the “Contact Dr. Simon” link at the bottom of the page on the right.
    Again, please take Tori’s words to heart because they speak for the people here as well.

  19. I am currently in a relationship ship with one of these blood suckers. Obviously starting to realize what he really is. It’s completely obsurd. These dirt bags are real manipulators. The most recent attack was two days ago when I was told he was going to the store less than a mile away and if I wanted anything and what I wanted to drink. Three hours later he pulled up just screaming at me nonstop and insistant on me sleeping with someone all over the house. Yup you caught me I was just waiting until the right opportunity struck and you would take 3 hours to go to a store less than a mile away to f@ck this mystery man. Its nonstop accusing, nonstop he’s the victim, nonstop I’m not worthy to tall or be heard because any of that seems to be very irrelevant to him and his agenda. If I am sick or in pain I am a liar. If he is sick or in pain I am the sole cause of it. If he lies, dissapears for hours, decides to pack my stuff up and throw me out onto the street, intentionally keep food or things such as gifts from me than its my fault. I did something so bad to cause another human to act like a soulless douchebag. I am obviously very very aware that this dude is evil and has some freaking issues. Yes I am packing my shit as we speak and not walking away rather running very fast. I have encountered a few of these demons in my lifetime and they a some of the slickest, slimiest, bottom feeding vultures. It hasn’t taken me long to discover that I am not only dealing with straight trash but something that has no soul, no regard for other humans. It’s quite a show. How the fuck are people wired so fucking evil? WTF? I guess its just simply unfathomable to me how someone could be so cold, so uncaring and insensitive but have everyone around them besides their prey that they are anything but… I really hope there is a reserved crevice in the depths of hell reserved just for these people.

  20. with regards to the view that milignant narcissism is not in any sense neurotic or as compensation for a core lack self esteem , can I just say I am not convinced by this view. Malignant Narcissism is certainly beyond neurotic anxiety but being such does not necessarily mean its unrelated to a core lack of self esteem. I believe that malignant narcissism is a method by which someone can create a self mythology which propels them into an orbit of ‘greatness’ whilst simutanously reducing others to ‘smallness’. This means not only is the person now a ‘success’ but it means they remove themselves from being affected or hurt by others because they are now ‘insgnificant’. This also feeds their own sense of being ‘better’ and ‘superior’. Malignant narcissism is ultimately a deeply disturbed and unhealthy defence mechanism which cacaoons and protects a deeply damaged and venerable psyche, but leads to a deeply maladaptive personality who though ‘protected’ is still full of spite and rage at other people. They wish to hurt and even kill because deep down they bitterly envy and resent the true self love that healthy people possess but which is completely lacking in them.

    1. Ah, Steven so what additional insight do you have and may I ask why you feel this or what have you experienced that makes you think otherwise. Thanks for your reply.

  21. Steven, I don’t know what your story is but I can tell you that my first instinct was to consider that the ex-monster had a deeply wounded psyche. I couldn’t fathom anyone acting so abhorrently towards me and my children for any other reason.

    I would caution you to consider that – in fact – some people are exactly who and what (inhuman) they appear to be. You can reach out your hand in love and understanding, but you’ll draw back a nub.

  22. Tanya, 14 years ago I filed for divorce from my narcissist. The same thing happened to me as you describe…my entire story of who I am was rewritten by him and he received custody of my daughters (daughters!!!) The GAL was disbarred the week his recommendation was accepted by the court and lost his GAL license a couple weeks after the final divorce hearing, yet his recommendation still stood in court. I left the state to heal, since even my children didn’t seem to understand nor want to defy him.

    My eldest daughter was “girlfriended” long before I was out of the house and my youngest was severely emotionally abused. His charm and money keeps the girls under his control. Both are in serious college debt because he wouldn’t pay for their schooling (though they were pretty much required to go to college), and they protect him at every turn because they depend on him and don’t want to look. I have been demoted to the level of a companion to my eldest, my youngest at least knows the skinny, but she lives in fear and has a diagnosed “anxiety disorder”. My children and I were most definitely “railroaded” by him, his attorney, his family and the system. Recently, my daughter used his tactics on me while I was in a PTSD state, because she had put me in the situation that I had to be in his house (he wasn’t supposed to be there!) and he was there, only to attempt to re-victimize me.

    I’ve sent copies of legal documents and my story to various agencies (and to Lundy Bancroft, who never replied). I did hear back from one DV agency that said my story is not that uncommon. The District Attorney’s office told me they would review this case and to never contact them again because they would not tell me the outcome. This is the sick state of our courts!!

    You said to get in touch with you because I have a hell of a story to tell and maybe offer some assistance. I don’t know how to do that on this blog. Any suggestions?

    1. Linda,

      Almost everyone is posting on the latest Topic

      Mastering Appetites and Desires

      I am sure if you post there someone will respond to you that has had a similar problem. You are also welcomed to chime in your comments on this recent topic. Everyone on the blog is very understanding, kind and supportive. I am very sorry to hear about your situation but have not experienced this problem. I look forward to your posts and welcome.

  23. Typo:
    ….“malignant,” is cause for grave concern whenever it’s present to any significant degree in an* someone’s personality structure.

    Carmen Racine

  24. I believe that President Donald Trump presents all the symptoms of malignant narcissism which makes him the biggest threat to world peace than anything else. Would you agree?

    1. Alan,

      I totally agree. Even more scarier than DT is the GOP still backs him, still puts in front of him Executive Orders to sign, will not take a stand against him. His chief appointments are frightening. Our country is being dismantled, and fast.

    2. Alan,

      I will not dispute Donald Trump’s personality, but he was a great negotiator. He got North Korean Leader Kim to return some, if not all, our missing deceased military personnel from the Korean War. This was something no other President really cared about, nor was successful at. He also achieved a historic Peace Agreement between Israel and Middle Eastern Countries that resulted in Arab airlines flying their people into Israel. I think he was definitely a potential threat to any enemy who dared tried to attack us. Even Malignant Narcissists can achieve job goals. But would not want to be in a relationship with one. Been there, done that.

  25. Dr. Simon it is imperative that you remove my last name from my comment ASAP. This person is really dangerous, please delete my last name ASAP.

  26. When I was at University in England many years ago we put words in quotation marks to indicate they were not ours and that we had lifted the from another writer’s work. Now many writers – especially those who should know better – seem to thinks it’s permissible to use quotation marks or inverted commas to emphasise words. They are not correct. Underlining, upper case and bold impart meaning very well. If you can’t make yourself understood using normal vocabulary then you can’t write.

    1. I always understood those quoted words to mean that Dr. Simon doesn’t agree with commonly used words and their meaning in psychology circle. That also agree with the guidelines, quote the words lifted from another writer’s work , or quote the words if using them satirically.

      1. At the beginning of the article the words malignant narcissism, benign and malignant are in quotation marks. Are you saying he doesn’t agree with these terms?

  27. He is correctly using quotation marks to indicate the common misuse of the terms. And if most of us have seen their misuse, mainly in print by “experts,” that would make a lot of sense.

    Now, if someone claims that you are, “splitting hairs,” the quotation marks wouldn’t be necessary.

  28. I disagree Lisa. I think Dr Simon is misusing quotation marks to the point where meaning is actually obscured. If it was clear why he was using them then this thread wouldn’t have got to this point.

    1. Exactly. That’s what he’s doing. He’s using quotation marks for emphasis. And this isn’t what they’re used for. Everyone’s doing it now – even academics. As an English grammar teacher I struggle with it. I wish, as BTOV recommends quite rightly, that I could succeed in ignoring it. But I can’t. Used correctly, quotation marks indicate that the words are from the original author or another writer. Their other main use is in the form of scare quotes. For example, Mrs Miggins always serves “fresh” cream in her shop. This leads the reader to understand that when you go to visit Mrs Miggins, the likelihood of finding fresh cream is highly unlikely. Catch my drift?

      1. To Mike,

        Your explanation of the rules goes back to basics and I completely agree with what you are saying. Quotation marks take away from what Dr. Simon is writing so I choose to ignore them. I understand it would be hard for an English grammar teacher to overlook this. Try and look away, (insert smiley face here).

        1. I believe Dr. Simon is correct in using “Quatations” to call attention to the specific words that people are misunderstanding and or using to identify a diagnosis. Almost every grammar rule in English has some exceptions to it. This use of quotations, a basic rule, may also have exceptions to the rule, as in the case of calling attention to “malignant” or “benign” which is used in medical diagnosis.

          Using the “Q marks” calls attention to the serious misunderstanding people have of specific words attributed to the Charactered Disordered and it is imperative to know the differences. People need to understand what these terms mean, what this disorder truly is and if using “Q marks” in this manner gets the point across, more power to Dr. Simon.

          Instead of nit-picking the use of “quotations marks” I would encourage you to add to the conversation of what “malignant and benign” mean to you in the context of the CDN.

          I would remind you, this is a serious topic which has far reaching consequences to individuals, their families and our society as a whole.

          This conversation has no practical meaning and is a moot point. Please consider commenting on the Topic:
          Ego Inflation and Narcissism

          1. BTOV:
            Everyone is allowed an opinion and I for one could easily nit pick at the OFF
            TOPIC comments so prevalent here.

            I read your direction to comment on Ego Inflation and Narcissism inexcusable because you’ve read an opinion you don’t like and not for the first time you have become territorial.

      2. Mike,
        Yes, I understand what you’re saying. We are not following the rules of writing.
        Instead of using quotation marks, what would be proper is to describe in more detail the point we are trying to get across. It’s easier to put the emphasized word into quotation marks. That’s why we do it, and it’s become so rampant that most readers understand the point being made with the quotation marks.
        I work in a field where I work with transcribing the written word, and I very rarely will use quotation marks, even if someone is reading directly from something, unless I know for sure that they are quoting verbatim. And even when they say, “and I quote –” , blah blah blah, they are saying they are quoting, but I’m not so sure they are.
        I can see how this all would drive an English major bonkers, watching the written word become slaughtered.

  29. Old Soul,

    I understand and am going to try to keep this short. I understand everything you have written and at this stage, have heard this same scenario repeated over and over. Please give heed to what Lucy just advised. Above all, don’t let him know what you are thinking and note, who you may think you can trust today (friends and family) can and may well be your enemies tomorrow. For now it is better to say Nothing….

    Getting prepared and going through what you are describing takes preplanning and much thought.

    For now, make sure you delete all your history and if need be change all your passwords and designate an email address specifically to this topic or a a fictitious topic. Also, use aliases. Its not an easy process to divorce a CDN, the CDN are basically the same although each scenario is different and can cause confusion. Remember, confusion is the main tool of Satan.

    On this blog, many are willing to help and share their knowledge and experience. Please continue to post and ask questions, as we get to know one another we will be better equipped to help.

    Above all, know you are welcomed.
    God Bless and be safe.

  30. Thank you Dr. Simon for an excellent article and many thanks to everyone here.

    I am declaring myself an Overcomer, even though my Narcissist son has turned Malignant after hooking up with a Malignant Narcissist and marrying her. They made this year the worst year of my life, causing me grave physical harm through such vile and sadistic emotional, psychological and soul rending abuses. Never again do I want to go through what I went through. I pray for my grandbabies that she has vowed I will never see them again because I laid a boundary of respect down with her. She lost her mind and went after me with lies and threats of having me arrested, projecting her craziness off on me and gaslighting me, and telling me that I will never see my son again either. He sides with her, gaslights me and stonewalls me, besides lying and being horrendously emotionally and verbally abusive on the rare times we text or speak. I am regularly trying to speak with my grandson over the phone and only 3 times in 5 months have been successful with my son only and alone agreeing to a very brief greeting with my little grandson. They have always used him as a pawn in a very sadistic manner, hurting both the little guy and me. This is the worst it has been, 5 months of forced separation to continue indefinitely. This comes after being his caregiver from 8am to 11:3pm-2am (whenever they decided he could go to bed and not before!) for 5 to 6 days a week, up from 1-2 days a week for the past year. My grandbabies are my world. So devastated beyond belief they way she did this and my son went along with her, participating. Since being so devastated for 5 months and not sleeping, my autoimmune conditions have once again yielded precancer in several places in my body. I will no longer sacrifice myself on their alters and am now leaving the Malignant Pair in God’s hands. Seeing what you all have gone through has been very educating and helpful. Words cannot express my sincerest thank you, even though I wish you all had not gone through this.

    Take Care and Be Kind To Yourself.

  31. Despite being fiendishly clever manipulators, to me, malignant narcissists are emotionally akin to toddlers. They have never got past the omnipotent stage, they are only conscious of their own needs, they haven’t developed empathy, responsibility, remorse of a conscience, and they get their way by throwing tantrums. They still, like a toddler, believe they are the centre of the universe. I can’t help wondering if it’s a kind of developmental disorder

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