Bearing the Burden of Responsible Living – Part 2

Becoming a well-socialized, conscientious, responsible human being is process – a long, delicate, sophisticated, and arduous process (for more on this topic see: Socialization is a Process). Some individuals possess innate traits and have learning experiences that together more easily prepare them to lead a responsible life.  But other individuals possess traits that make the socialization process inherently more challenging than usual.  And, if on top of that such folks just happen to come from environments replete with various types of abuse, neglect, or inadequate guidance, they can enter adulthood with little motivation to bear the burden of responsible living.  Today’s article is the second in a series (see also: Bearing the Burden of Responsible Living) designed to illustrate how differently certain personality types approach the burden of responsibility and the problems this can pose for both for relationships and society at large (Note: As always, names and circumstances depicted in the vignette below have been altered to ensure anonymity).

Jerry and Lisa had been married only a few years but it had already become clear their relationship was in trouble, so at Lisa’s insistence, they came in for therapy.  Neither was shy about voicing their complaints.  Jerry had had his fill of Lisa’s “constant bitching and nagging.” She didn’t used to be that way, he complained, and he could hardly believe how she had changed. He only knew he didn’t like it and wished things could be like they used to be.  For her part, Lisa couldn’t fathom how anyone could be as “selfish” and “uncaring” as Jerry had seemed to become.  She always knew he had those tendencies, but she also saw something more in him – at least, at first – and she had high hopes early on that once he’d “settled down” to married life everything would be fine.  But things had gotten so contentious lately that both were at a point of thinking they’d made a very big mistake ever getting together.

Lisa and Jerry had come from very different backgrounds.  While she was still in junior high school, Lisa lost her mother to cancer. It was rough on the whole family.  After her mother died, her father began drinking too much and his business almost went under. For awhile, it seemed to Lisa like the whole family – perhaps even her whole world  – might fall apart.  But she was determined not to let that happen and she took her role as the elder sibling seriously, making sure her brothers and sisters got dressed and ready for school and making sure breakfast was on the table for everyone, including her dad.  She also did her best to support her dad emotionally while he recovered from his loss.  And when he stopped drinking, reinvested himself in his family, and attended to his business affairs more faithfully, he seemed to more than deserve the “super dad” title she affectionately conferred on him.  She promised herself she’d marry someone just like him someday.

Jerry came from a background of privilege.  Both of his parents came from well-to-do families and he never wanted for anything growing up.  He’d be the first to admit he didn’t invest himself as much as he could have in his studies but being quite gifted intellectually, he managed to pass all his classes, and because his parents were both benefactors and had connections there, he was able to get into and graduate (albeit “barely”) from a reputable private college.  Tragically, he lost his younger brother to a drug overdose right after graduation, and for awhile he “kind of dropped out” of life until, that is, he met Lisa.

Lisa became pregnant within the first year of their marriage but miscarried toward the end of her second month.  As difficult as the experience was for her emotionally, she regarded the event as fortunate in a way because it was because of Jerry’s response to the prospect of fatherhood and his seeming lack of concern about losing another job that she began taking better notice of his general attitude toward his responsibilities.  How could someone be so unconcerned about not working when they knew there would soon be another mouth to feed?  And what kind of husband could be so comfortable letting his wife carry the whole load by herself, pregnant and all?  She had been there for him.  But would he be there for her?

Now, I’ve seen hundreds of situations just like Lisa and Jerry’s where one party gives short-shrift to social expectations and the other party is all-too-willing to pick up the slack.  And I’ve seen too many instances where someone makes the same mistake Lisa made when she first became involved with Jerry:  Based on her experience with her father, who lost his wife, sank into a fair degree of depression which he self-medicated for awhile with alcohol, but then with support, became “super dad,” she just knew Jerry was a wounded soul (after all he’d also suffered a loss) and even though she had reservations about his sense of obligation, she felt that with the right kind of support, all would be well.  It’s natural for us to want to generalize from our experience.  But the fact is that everyone is different.  Moreover, environment alone doesn’t shape a person’s character.  A person brings their own innate inclinations to the table, too.  And most importantly, just how much a person allows him/herself to profit from their experiences both good and bad counts for a lot, and that has much more to do with their ability to get past themselves and both see and care about the bigger picture (for  more on personality formation and disorders of personality and character, see the relevant chapters in Character Disturbance, In Sheep’s Clothing, and The Judas Syndrome and the series beginning with: Personality and Character Disorders: A Primer, and culminating with Personality and Character Disorders – Part 7: A Wrap-Up).  Jerry lacked a sense of obligation to anything or anyone bigger than himself long before he experienced any significant trauma in his life.  And he unfortunately came from the consummate family of “enablers” who only reinforced his lack of investment.  On the other hand, Lisa, who had every reason to abandon care and hope because of the trauma she experienced, seemed have the internal resources to accept the daunting challenges life presented her and more than rise to the occasion.  Hers was a remarkably conscientious character.  Unfortunately, she was conscientious to the point (and naive enough) that she enabled an individual already prone to being irresponsible shirk his duties even more once he married.

Fortunately, the extent of Jerry’s character disturbance was not so severe that his relationship with Lisa couldn’t survive.  But Lisa had to become much less willing to do everything and more willing to hold Jerry accountable.  And she had to do much less complaining (her way of simultaneously venting and cajoling) and simply set and stand by reasonable limits and expectations.  Jerry, for his part, would have to find some cause to release his passions.  At first, his sole motivation would be his fear of losing someone he knew to be a good and decent person, but later it would necessarily be acquiring some sense of a “higher purpose” in life and cultivating the willingness to serve that higher cause.

While this particular story had a happy resolve, there are unfortunately all-too-many examples I could give of folks who approached the burden of responsible living with utter disregard or even contempt, and next week’s post will feature a vivid example of this.

Character Matters this Sunday at 7 pm Eastern Time will again be a live program, so I’ll again be able to take your telephone calls.


82 thoughts on “Bearing the Burden of Responsible Living – Part 2

  1. Oh dear, you have just described a number of my past relationships very clearly. I was completely Lisa. (Well, least I know better now…)

  2. I lived w a character disordered man for a few years. He was a pathological liar. I think a lot Of it was set up by his mother who was constantly enabling him. He has always freeloaded from others or lived off of women. Once she went to assisted living he was unable to manipulate her to send money and his life went down hill quickly

    He has never really held a conventional job. In my mind he is like a feral cat and is beyond living within a normal structure

    Why I an writing is bc at least once every few months he tries to text me, even though I haven’t been w him in a couple of years. He’s always telling me he’s going to be evicted within a couple of days and his life is horrible and then proceeds to say that I must be happy that is happening to him. Then he goes on to either blame me for his circumstances or tell me something insane like ‘on day he’ll have full blown Cancer ‘ and then I’ll be happy.

    Of course, none of these things ever come to pass for him. He lives in a squalid condition. It’s not as easy to use women for money now that he’s almost 55. And he blames that on me too even though he was the one that luckily left me in a fit of rage and I never let him come back

    Why does it so I furiate me each time I get one of these bizarre communications. I have him blocked almost every way possible but he finds a way to get to me periodically.

    Why can I not just say ‘oh there’s harry again and he’s still nuts. ‘. Why does it bug me that he’s still trying to get my attention. Today I actually got a picture of his feet- showing me he had a broken toe. I haven’t spoken or seen him in a year. Why does he do it and why does it drive me nuts even though I know he is clearly disordered

    1. My case is not as severe as yours, thankfully, my CD guy left me before he even started a relationship (I’m so thankful it happened early, if you’ve been dumped or just rejected by a CD, feel lucky that you didn’t get to waste more time). Also, it’s been just a couple of months since I stopped contact and told him we’re not friends any more. I have moved on and feel very good without him and I’m not heartbroken anymore. However, it still bothers me when he tries to get my attention on social media in the most retarded way possible, or even worse when he texts me some dumb stuff. Maybe I need to block him but my curiosity is bigger for now. Plus I promised him the chance for him to apologize, so… However, I know exactly what mean. Something just boils inside of me when I see his name and his dumb attempts to get my attention. When he texts me, he definitely disturbs my inner balance for a while. Your reaction is normal. But with time, it will become less and less. I recommend you to be really cold but polite. Answer with one word or don’t answer at all. Change your number if you have to. And most importantly, be kind to yourself for having this reaction. It’s totally normal. It’s OK to get mad when someone like that dumps all that nonsense onto you. Allow yourself to get angry. After I sent the CD guy a response to his nonsense that just OK, well, he had nothing more to add.

      “it’s your fault that this happened to me” “OK” “you’re a terrible person!” “yes, I am” “do you have any sympathy left for me?” “not really” “so you’re gonna leave me like that to just die and get cancer?” “yes”

      If anything, you can have fun with it.

      1. Goreegt, as many CD’s love drama, to just flatly respond in agreement is great, if ‘no contact’ isn’t working. Even within a relationship where someone is truly stuck with a P, it is vital to remember the emotional jujitsu of keeping enough emotional distance that they can’t ‘get to you’. Lack of emotion, is like kryptonite for some of them..

        This doesn’t mean anyone should feel morally reprehensible for losing it when dealing with them. And sometimes, with some of these types, confusion, chaos and going off script will actually keep them away.

        Depends on the type and the degree of disorder.

        1. It certainly works. Some CDs have become timid around me after me suffering their terrible sexual harassment. This is not for everyone but if you could do it, it can have really good results. It does help them feel shame which they desperately need. Recently one guy was asking me for a favor that was not actually a favor but him trying to take advantage of me and make me do all of his work. He was acting as though he’s entitled to that. After I tried to subtly reject his request and he insisted more, I jokingly asked him how much he will pay me for this (a school project). He told me “are you materialistic?”. I just said “Yes, I am. I’m very materialistic”. I didn’t tremble at all and didn’t care about his reaction one bit. Since then he of course tried to leach on me and other people but is now really, truly intimidated by me (a woman, no less). He tried to text me after it was all over, I was polite but only answered with one word so he had nothing to say.

    2. Destiny, to me it sounds like he wants your attention. In a way it makes me sad for him BUT, you want him to leave you alone. Excuse me if I missed something 🙂 Have you told him clearly in no uncertain terms that you do not want him to contact you any more and that you have moved on with your life? I don’t know……I know that I need things explained to me sometimes and i’m not good with taking hints. If something is not crystal clear to me My mind turns it over and over and over and it’s very troubling to me.
      A friend of mine, we used to spend a LOT of time together then he developed a relationship with someone and basically dropped me because she was insecure. I never really understood exactly what the issue was and I still contact him occasionally if something strikes me as relevant……. (like Leonard Nimoy dying recently because we were both HUGE Star Trek fans, LOL!). All I want at this point is for him to give me the dignity of an explanation. We were friends for years and when this all happened I was still drinking and at this point it’s really unclear as to why the friendship ended so suddenly. SO, I have asked him to please explain, etc and he completely ignores my request. It’s bizarre. Anyhow, I’m not the only friend that has been squeezed out of his life because of this girl.
      So, My point being,,,,,,,,,,I could let go of the friendship with out a problem if he was just direct and straight forward about it. I feel like the friendship deserves a fight ending and that loose ends need to be tied.
      I don’t know if this applies to your situation or not Destiny.

  3. Destiny, hello and welcome. im assuming he is texting you? You should be able to block his number unless he has changed it or uses someone else’s phone. There is always a way around things I supose. He is invading your privacy and if you are really that bothered you could press charges against him. Maybe he truly doesn’t “get” your position?

  4. Social media too…they find ways to still get to you via that in round about ways, found that out lately! Pathetic what these middle aged children will do!

  5. Destiny; wow, it does really seem like he’s truly looking for someone to blame for his life and you seem to be the target. I can understand your frustration. It is difficult being blamed for things that are not your fault, it’s frustrating and I can completely get your frustration. I wonder, too, if a part of it is also entitlement. I read somewhere that once you’ve been with these people they have a mentality that they own you. So even though you keep avoiding and blocking him, somewhere in his twisted thinking he believes that he has every right to contact you. (I’m wondering if it partially entitlement, and also a lot that they have no clue how to handle another person’s healthy boundaries).

  6. I am at wits end with dealing with the CD in my life.

    It is relentless and unending.

    The latest is a grand long email of YOU this and YOU that … the YOU being me and all the this and that is actually issues between the CD and offspring. All attempts to lay blame elsewhere, move the conversation to past events, requesting me to do things … and on and on

    Dr. Simon – can you post a link where I can find someone whom can help – help organize this nonsense so if I am back in court I have therapeutic backing for this insanity. I am overwhelmed. I have SO many examples in my life with this CD that match to vignettes in both “In Sheep’s Clothing” and “Character Disturbance” book, that to pull the documents (emails, texts, recordings) that match each is a crushing weight on my being. I don’t won’t fix this CD. I can’t change this CD. The CDs behavior is on the CD. And yet it ALL feels as if I have to manage it, respond to it, tolerate it, be its whipping post.

    How many times can one human being listen / read rants directed at them? Rants that have no basis in reality but are conjured by lies and proclamations that are not wholly truthful.

    And courts? The hardest part is that in the court system, in society, amongst “friends”, with lawyers there is this assumption, belief that the CD is telling a truth and is allowed such behavior because of a perceived distant hurt or worse, because the CD is wealthy and therefore above retched behavior.

    Signed, tired from the latest rant and seriously looking for help. The tactics in the book are all well and good, but are the books ultimately stating that if you come into contact with a CD and form any relationship with the CD, you are doomed to a lifetime (LIFETIME) of the cycle of CD behavior and can only break the cycle IF YOU, THE NON-CD PERSON, cut the CD completely out of your life – blocked all forms of communication, change the address, move geographically away so no casual contact could ever occur, court ORDERS stipulating no contact and so forth? And if the answer to this question, is yes this is the only way, then any NON-CD person that has created life with a CD, can never be free of the CD?

  7. Thanks all and Sheri I think that’s a good point. For reasons I can’t explain here there are always ways for him to get through if he wants to but that’s not my issue it does have something to do w boundaries and entitlement

    This is someone who caused great destruction in my life even though it was only a few years. Through his impulsivity and poor choices, He almost cost me everything.

    Even though all of these crazy actions of his – cheating, lying, inability to hold a job for any amount of time, causing me great embarrassment and danger, he always felt ‘entitled’ to blame me. I remember him telling me he only had one problem in his life and that was me. And as soon as he left me, he’d be fine.

    He lives in a way that most people would be ashamed to admit; in a room and doing odd jobs for people while I still own my home, my biz and my dignity. He could not confirm to the few simple requirements of being w me- be self supporting , be courteous , don’t cheat …..

    It just amazes me that 1- I’m always getting these ‘boy who cried wolf ‘ mags that he is being evicted in 15 days or yesterday’s picture of his feet. (If that’s not crazy). Or out of the blue he’ll write that ‘he’ll be going away for a week to visit someone . None of it is ever true. As if I care or even have contact w him

    He’s someone who had everything going for him. Good looking, talented, charming And where he is now you might think he’d have some humility or courtesy but it’s like there’s nothing wrong w his life and something wrong w everyone else He doesn’t seem to acknowledge the consequences of life catching up to him. He’d rather write and tell me that ‘you just be happy I m being thrown out – even if he isn’ t
    I don’t respond but I’ve never understood how he can’t understand what he’s done to me and why would he think I’d care. And everything is a delusional fantasy

    what I’m trying to understand are my own reactions and emotions to a person who I clearly understand is disordered possibly a sociopath? Why does it still anger me?i know he’s nuts.

    I understand the mechanics of restraining orders etc . I’m posting to try to get insight into what he’s doing and my own responses. Many thanks )

  8. I meant insight into my own reactions. I don’t respond. Ps -I’ve read they get tired and go away but this one doesn’t

    1. Hi Destiny and welcome. What a terrible thing you have been through but survived to tell the tale! Congrats! My take on your reactions is you are simply being blindsided by the white hot rage that you feel when having to deal with the profound deep unmitigated arrogance of a CD. It’s like you keep encountering a stubborn but self willed grease spot on your floor that believes your life should revolve around it because it’s the centre of the universe. It’s appalling, disgusting and annoying. If you add this to anger, you get the white-hots!

  9. Hi J,

    I have quit reading all media with regards Putin, Ukraine, Crimea.. It is a Byzantine (almost literally) mess of epic proportions. Opinions resting on ‘information’ radiating out of the area should be viewed as suspect. . I trust none of the mainstream media with strong direct or indirect ties to the covert or overt governments of the regions involved, to honestly represent what is happening there. This includes members of NATO.

    The author of the article claims it is impossible to discern who murdered victim, highlighting the complexity involved. He then defaults to an Occam’s razor explanation, fitting for science, but not for understanding complex international gangsterism. If it is so difficult to discern what group is responsible, then why target Putin?

    There is a clear public relations battle going on…so I just fade all of it. I accept that I would be trying to form an opinion in a vacuum of credible info. We have many psychopaths vying for control. I don’t trust ANY of them. I will not let them take up space in my head.

    1. J, thanks for article, though. Didn’t mean to sound arrogant. I just find the entire business so draining and I feel so bad for anyone who has ever been under the boot of someone else’s BS. I figure the people in the regions involved have suffered so much. One misery after another, for decades. No…centuries. Will it ever end??

    2. Your response is great. Takes so many factors into account.

      It could indeed be Putin’s power and confusion tactics. It could be some other faction seeking to discredit Putin, only for spin doctors to make the state out to be the victim. There could be something more complicated.

      It’s my point exactly why I posted this link at all: Be aware when confusion sets in.

      1. Thanks J,

        I don’t think it is even possible, the way the world’s current political systems are structured, for anyone of any party or political influence, to get to the top, unless they are pathological. I hope it changes, but it looks like evil has won– for the time being.

      2. Would political restructurization be needed as a part of mass awakening? Reasoning here.

        Why is it that evil and pathological ones have the drive and will, but most of the good ones don’t?

        1. Actually J, I think there are a lot of good people who are in positions of power who really do try to work for the betterment of society. Some may not be in the political arena, having tried it and found that for whatever reason the party’s political agenda goes against their ideals and they drop out and fight these issues in another way. I also have heart that people are starting to realise that there is a high level of character disturbance in the political systems. Politicians that are bullies and who are openly attacking vulnerable people in society are starting to be called out…at least here it seems there is a real push to not put up with such behaviour. I think recent elections have sent a message that character of our leaders does actually MATTER! It was reported widely that that was the real issue for people voting against the party that was in power! That really gives me hope. Of course there were others whose views believed the opposite that people of power can’t have “good” character all the time because they must make hard decisions for the “economic good”. Ha, of course that usually means making the poorer pay for those on the top. Again the character disturbed not liking the fact that people are coming out and saying NO!

          1. Just to add here, that it has been interesting watching the now current Federal Government…accused of the very same character flaws has suddenly changed it’s tune. “Talking nicely,” they still have the same agenda but they are now using the guise of caring! It’s like watching covert manipulation at it’s best! I just hope the people see it for what it is but it is interesting to watch!

        2. J, I think many lovely people have the drive and will but they are edged out by the ruthless. It’s a war and those who can fake sincerity and have the largest compliment of warrior genes, win

          The problem with mass awakenings as to the nature of psychopaths is it could easily turn into a witch hunt. The Khmer Rouge had their Cambodian killing fields that they modeled on the French Revolution, under Robespierre. It is quite possible that a massive wakeup call would lead to mass hysteria. And guess who capitalizes on that…psychopaths, or just plain ambitious careerist butchers.

          Politically, I am doing my best to simply starve the beast by ignoring media buying local products whenever I can, etc…

    3. Many psychopaths and other twisted folk vying for power and control makes for a greater mess.

      Found in laymen, politicians, office, spiritual teachers, pretty much anywhere. Depressing.

      We really need a stark mass awakening.

    4. Really, I’ve said some of this before and I say it again now: We need a stark mass awakening of a generative, critically inquiring consciousness with a solid rational-emotive-spiritual basis that unflinchingly deals with all realities, including troubling ones. These better not stay as words. Please reflect on these.

  10. Yes, I believe most of the time they feel an entitled ownership of you.
    Destiny, Why does he do it? Because he knows or hopes it will bother you or make you nuts.. And I think it drives us nuts for a variety of reasons…. I think because we are normal we see the hurt, sadness, truth of it all and what wasted lives they are living… Many times I get pulled back and its so obvious, but that’s not the way they want to see it. I have read so much on the subject and still get pulled in, I see how easy it is to fix it. The best response is no response. I still, want to shake some of the ones in my family and all it does is draw my energy, and if I let them get a rise out of me so to speak they are “One Up” in toddle time. Take care and God bless all.

    1. In dealing with the above subject and CD in my life the most difficult thing for me is still guilt that I haven’t done enough. Any comments would be appreciated on how you dealt with this one. Thanks

      1. Hi BTOV — Even though I went way above and beyond what any woman should have to do, I thought my ex-husband and I were building a life together. I did rough carpentry in putting up stud walls. I drilled holes, I pulled Romex, I tarred the flat roof, I split wood with an 8 lb. maul, on and on and on. But no matter what I did, it was never enough. I finally realized that it wouldn’t have mattered what I did, the marriage was over. I had to file and pay for the divorce. That was 25 years ago. (Obviously I’m leaving out LOTS of details — it would take WAY too long to tell it all.)

        I’ve just recently bought the book, Dangerous Personalities, by Joe Navarro, c. 2014. I speed-read through it when I got it. Now I’m going through it more slowly, studying it, and underlining bits of it. Here’s a key sentence from the forward: “These individuals are so flawed and callous that they can make us feel as though we are responsible for the suffering they cause, while they remain impervious to modifying or changing their toxic behavior.” The book covers narcissists, emotionally unstable folk, paranoids, and predators, and combination personalities. There are checklists to help you decide which type you might be dealing with. There is a list of resources and a good bibliography.

        Here are a few more quotes: “These individuals are flawed not only in personality, but also in character–that is, in morality and ethics.” “…no one has a social obligation to be victimized.” “…whatever you do, it is never enough.” “You are not a puppet and do not deserve to be manipulated, no matter how sick or in pain someone may be.”

        I am finding this book to be very useful. It’s well written, easy to read, I will keep studying it.

        I hope some of the foregoing will be useful to you. Once when I was going round and round mentally on I should have done this, etc., I realized that I was not accomplishing anything this way. But I felt like a squirrel in a cage, spinning round and round in a wheel, and I couldn’t seem to stop. I finally prayed “God, I’m not strong enough to stop this by myself. Please take all these negative thoughts away and help me to get going with what I need to do.” And, He did. It probably will take lots of prayer, maybe write down negative thoughts on paper, then ceremonially burn the paper.

        Peace and hope from Elva

        1. Elva, BTOV, I read on a blog one time, a person wrote…..that the hardest part for her was coming to grips with the fact that not only was the relationshi* doomed from the start but that there WAS no relationdhi*……EVER!! There is a lot that is implied in that realization… It’s what I have called, the bitter, jagged pill that rips you inside as you swallow it. And to think that fact amused him and his little helpers? Yeah,,,,,,,

          1. Destiny, I can SO relate to your descriptions in your post above. I feel your pain…….our pain.

        2. Thank you everyone for your generous sharing. And Elva it gives me great consolation that even after 25 years that encounter is still very fresh in your mind and you’re still trying to learn and heal.

          The quotes are powerful. I think one of my big regrets is not just wasting 5 years w a CD but the damage its left in me even after a couple of years out. I am a different person and not for the better in my opinion. Meaning even though I’ve had therapy, continue to learn , I still have a hurt and anger and a kind of aloneness that doesn’t go away. Even though from the outside my life looks great, it’s an experience that’ left me very mentally isolated. I don’t feel like I’m healing

          It might lift for a while but it returns regardless of how nice I try to be to myself or what I do. I have activities, a nice career, I’m in service to others in my community but it all feels very empty. It sounds crazy but I feel like the part of me that’s gone is optimism. As if that I feel like I have nothing to look forward to And I’ll never feel better

          And usually when I’m at my lowest, I’ll get one of those deluded texts that says ‘ well you must be getting ready for a special night out with your new man. I saw you two and you looked happy. I drove by and saw his nice car in the driveway. Wait until he finds out what youre really like. You never really loved me anyway ‘

          Meanwhile I haven’t been out in over two years.

          I will look at that book. And appreciate all of your comments so very much.

          1. Hi Destiny — glad you found something in my reply that might help you. You do have a long road ahead. But I have to say that, 25 year on, I have healed and come a long way from where I was. My focus here and now is to keep learning, because, as a business owner, I have to deal with these sorts of people every day. I am learning to recognize them up front so I can shunt them elsewhere. Ex husband is dead. For your situation where he still keeps on pestering you, what this new book says may be of interest to you. It is “document, document, document.” If you have not kept a log of the unwanted contacts, you should start one. If you end up having to get a “no contact” legal restriction against him, the person with the most documentation wins, according to Navarro.

            Please know, from my experience, that you will heal eventually. It will take time, effort (LOTS of effort) on your part. It took me years, lots of prayer, keeping busy. Peace and hope from Elva

          2. Destiny; I feel your pain in my heart. I really understand. I am still living in the same household as the CD in my life, so it is a little different for me. I have plans and have set goals. At this moment my losses for leaving would be greater than trying to live in it (not the loss of him, other factors)
            I too have many wonderful things in my life, there are moments when I do have peace, I have set goals and have plans to get me to a point that once my children are finished school I will be in a place to go.
            I can completely understand the “aloneness.” Sometimes it can be very hard to bear. Some days I use the tools I have that help me through, but other days it lingers.It is like a black cloud that lingers, hovers, follows. It’s almost uncanny how they can do/say something at our most down moments.
            I have discovered many wonderful people on this site who will know exactly where I am at. All of our experiences might have different minor details but there are somehow eerily the same too. I do really encourage you to keep communicating on this forum, it has really helped me not feel so isolated. I try to be as honest as I can here with what I am going through and it has helped me so much; it seems no matter how many people I am in contact with they just don’t get it and the isolation grows. However, on this site so many people do get it. There have been many days I have left this forum in actual tears of relief to just have someone understand what I am saying.

          3. Hi again Destiny — just this morning I thought of another book you might be interested in. It’s written by Martha Beck — Finding your way in a wild new world. I get the impression that you are still not sure where do you go from here. If I have misinterpreted, I apologize. Anyway, I ran across a column written by Martha B, and what she said spurred me to buy the book. It confirmed for me that I was already doing what I was intended to do. Peace and hope from Elva

          4. Oh, Destiny. This is the post I really identified with……the lingering affects. I know it’s better, it’s changed, I no longer crave him or any of the misguided feelings I had in the beginning. He repulses me, even seeing him physically…. I really was so attracted to him during. Now he looks like a dirty old man, decaying alcoholic, etc. hard to believe.

          5. Destiny

            I didn’t have near as rough a ride as you and most of the other posters here. Still, the trauma of being betrayed by a cleverly concealed imposter, who used unresolved trauma from my childhood to gain entry into my heart and head, are impossible to adequately convey. It took me a relatively long time to get over it. Everybody is just a little bit destroyed by the experience — at the very least. But there is hope and light ahead. You can’t feel it now but it will come. You are not alone.

  11. Puddle, probably the worst thing a friend can do is drop you flat without ant kind of explanation. You can blame the wife but, seriously, he sounds like he has issues too…major ones.

    1. LisaO, yes,,,,,,,he does have some issues, I could go on and on there but, nah. One of the things that seems to get to me in the aftermath of one of these involvements (devolvments), for BTOV it’s guilt, for me it’s confusion, not understanding the whats, whys and why nots. I ran into Spathturdx the other day, almost face to face. Very coincidental close encounter of a magnitude I can not put into words here. The point I wanted to make is that I had a feeling of absolute repulsion at the sight of him and felt pulled to run up to him and wrap myself around him at the same time. I wanted to tell him about this a hole who crushed my heart and soul into shattered glass and have him hold me while I cried my heart out in his arms. But I couldn’t and never will because it was him that did it and could care less and will never even remotely have a clue what that feels like. That crazy dichotomy of repulsive disgust and some inner bond that he created just so he could heartlessly sever it with as much care as he would have flushing the toilet. All as a pay back for something I don’t even understand or know or to make mommy proud or what?? I did some things that were not good when I was with him, there is no doubt about that and I know in my heart I never did one single thing ever to intentionally hurt him, there was no premeditation whatsoever. I was groping in the dark and swimming in quicksand, clueless. So if his motive was to teach me a lesson for something I did or he inaccurately interpreted I did ( something he used to do frequently) his efforts were lost on me. All he did was prove himself a pathetict pathological parasitic loser. In that respect I guess it doesn’t matter why he did it because the reason would be just as twisted up and pathetic as he is and make as much sense as he does.

      1. Puddle,

        That feeling of repulsion on the one hand, coupled with a strong desire to seek comfort from the abuser is so weird but shows how out of synch the human brain can be. I had similar reactions, for a while. It’s cognitive dissonance and trauma bonding reaction. A psychopath lays very deep neural grooves, deep trenches. We think the ruts are smoothed out but there are still bumps in the road of our psyches that we trip on. It’s a testament to your inner strength that you didn’t fall right in to the trenches he was laying and get swallowed up. You stuck up for yourself, asked questions, were righteously confused. If you flew off the handle and said or did something crazy…so what? P’s don’t like it when their toys break or go “off script”. This is probably Nature’s way or God’s way of protecting us. I just wish I had opened the biggest can of whoop ass I could lay my hands on, while I was being jerked around. Darn!

          1. Puddle, Thank you! You know when you describe the physiological reaction to a P, I totally agree. It’s really hard to describe, but I know exactly what you are saying. You know how a cowbird will fool smaller birds into raising its young by laying an egg in another’s nest? It looks pretty ridiculous, after the cowbird fledges out. Cowbird by now is almost twice the size of the parents! They continue to feed and love the imposter, because of that ‘family feeling’. In a sense, the P reverses this process. He pampers chicks who yearn for parental closeness, love and affection. He’s using hypnosis, intentionally or unconsciously to transfix, soften, encourage submission. Mothers do these things unconsciously, not to manipulate but to calm their children, to love them.

            Anyway, after a time, what do these grown chicks do? Take them into their nests, nurture them, love them, etc…Shortly thereafter we realize we don’t have a nurturer loving us back, but a cowbird like parasite, using us. So grosse. Nobody should judge themselves for this. It’s all on the CD. If anyone “laid an egg”, they did!

          2. Yes LisaO……….I look at it like this,,,,,,,,, An old man is walking down the road and clearly he is vulnerable, right? Well, 20 people walk by him and nothing happens, some smile at him or speak to him kindly even. Then along comes some punk who pushes him down, steals his wallet, kicks him in the gut and walks of laughing. The old man is just being an old man and the POS who robbed him chose to do what he did to him.
            It is gross LisaO, It’s pathetically gross. If it were not for the very serious nature of the deep deep damage they do I would laugh at how pathetic the really are vs how wonderful they think they are. I really think they are liars trapped in their own lies. They have told so many they can’t find their way out of the lie, like they are tangled in the very web they have spun to catch others.

          3. LisaO, I really get that you understand. I have never had another person reflect back my thoughts and feelings quite as accurately as you have which lets me know that you also got ripped inside out by the same type and felt the same pain. It is brutal and I really appreciate that you understand but I’m sorry you do. ((HUGS to you LisaO))

        1. LisaO, I think once you have felt what we were tricked into feeling for a person there is a brain/ sympathetic nervous system imprint of some sort. Or is it brain/ parasympathetic? But it’s like how an animal recognizes other animals it “knows”? Something has been “programmed” into my system and seeing him triggers that.
          Another weird thing…… I felt a certain comfort being around him but never really felt comfortable. J
          ust so bizarre and hard to explain. Like that movie Waiting to Exhale….. I never felt safe in his company or the relationshi*. All so clear now.

    2. LisaO, thank you for understanding. All I’ve ever wanted from him is a five minute convo. I want to explain my side and wish him well if he wants to not be in contact anymore for what EVER reason. I just want to understand why the friendship is over and leave the door open.

  12. Hi again Destiny — one last tidbit — consider starting your days with a visit to It’s a short daily motivational site that will help you get your day going in a positive way. Peace and hope from Elva

    1. Hi again- thank you All Elva and LisaO I think that’s one of the parts that upset me the most. This relationship did Sort of connected dots for me. I did have unresolved trauma from my childhood and while I was trying to extricate myself from the CD, ip had a familiar feeling.

      That’s when I started to look inward and figure out I had had a NPD parent. It’s made me re-visit my life. And this relationship did have a profound negative effect.

      I know It WILL take a really long time. I had this experience in my mid-late 50’s and I have this overwhelming feeling that there’s not enough time to be happy. Sure I can occupy myself alone or with work but i feel lonely regardless of if I’m w people or not. I will wake up in the middle of the night and think, this is it. You’re alone and you’ll be like this for the rest of your life. I think bc I was so blindsided and betrayed I’ve lost hope for my future. I feel irrelevant and invisible. And I also feel some anger bc I know my child hood experience set me up for this.

      It feels like a wasted life sometimes It’s over two years. I just don’t know what to think

      Meanwhile he’s fine but it’s turned my life upside down.

      1. Destiny,

        Hang on tight and be patient. You are doing all the right things. I hope you don’t mind me asking… Do you have any close family relationships, any children? I know how you feel. When my husband died several months ago, I would just lie in bed and feel a deep sense of dread and loneliness and a sense that I was too old, nearing sixty years of age, for it to ever be different. Very much a sense that there wasn’t enough time left. This may sound insane but do you have pets, like something really cuddly? They help. My dog just wants to bond through playing, not cuddly AT ALL,, plus she has really powerful bad breath. After my husband died, she wasn’t much help! That must sound so weird! My husband was aloof too. (But caring).

      2. Hi Destiny — I’m so sorry that you are still having such a hard time with this. I’ve no doubt that my friends got tired of listening to me, but, bless them, they did listen and helped me through the worst of it. I was 51 when I divorced him, with a mortgage to pay and a son to feed and clothe. There have been a few times when I have felt lonely, but I had to keep going. I sang in church choirs and in the local Chorale. I went on one date, but after all the muck I had to go through when married, I have NO desire to ever marry again. I’m perfectly able to go to a concert or out to dinner by myself. Now, at 74, my sewing and designing skills are greatly in demand, so much so that I work more than full time, I run about 3 weeks out from acceptance of a job to completion. I turn people away nearly every day because they want their job done sooner and I’m already booked.

        Now, let’s focus on your situation. You feel like you’re in limbo, and where do you go from here? I’d like to suggest some emotional first aid, things you can do that cost little or nothing, that will help you get through 1 or 2 days at a time. First, get some outdoor exercise. If you live in the eastern U.S., currently buried in umpteen feet of snow, going for a walk outside may not be possible right now. So, be inventive, pace your living room, or wherever you can, but Move. Keep a journal, preferably hand-written, about your feelings. Several studies of this have shown that people who journal when going through difficult times do actually recover faster. Also note in your journal at least one thing each day for which you can be thankful.

        If you can’t get outside because of snow or whatever, let your computer bring the world to you. Go to Google, click on images, then type in where you might like to travel. Check out Atlas Obscura (google it). Go to, scroll down the page about 1/3 of the way, to a section headed “Today’s photos.” Astronomy photos is right at the top of the section, it has an archive. Down at the bottom of the section go to Weather underground photos. People from all over the world send in their photos — I try to guess which thumbnail photo is from which contributor, or which country — some of them have very distinctive styles. Another possibility is to find a calendar picture of a place you’d like to visit, study the photo, imagine yourself there, feel the breeze ruffle your hair, smell the pines or the flowers, possibilities are endless. All of these activities are very good for bringing your blood pressure down, helping you to cope with feelings of depression. No, these activities will not magically cure your feelings, but they WILL help you cope momentarily, 1 day at a time. I like to start my day with prayer, and a visit to for a short, uplifting message. If you would like to read the Bible, go to My preferred versions are J.B.Phillips New Testament in Modern English, or NIV (New International Version), but there are many others available there.

        It’s OK to be angry — you’re entitled. You can express that in your journal. Or if you can get out somewhere where there is no one to hear you, yell and scream “You son of a female dog!!!!” Or whatever seems right to you. Puddle tells of driving with her windows rolled up, telling that sumbich just what she thinks of him.

        Picture Queen Elizabeth, well know for being calm and poised, on vacation at one of her country estates, walking out in the field, viciously whacking the heads off thistles and various other weeds when she is upset at something. Her staff know to leave her alone at such times.

        No, your life is not over — it will take you some time, but the sun will shine again. Meanwhile, we here are available to help and encourage you. Peace and hope from Elva

      3. Destiny, the thing that I think really helped me was accepting that I felt like crap. I just finally accepted that sometimes I was going to be gut wrenching lay sad, hurt, etc. this was the first time in my life that there was no way around it, I had quit drinking about a year before “the end” and my closest friends were living far away. There were a couple here that offered me a little comfort but generally speaking I was alone. So I felt what I felt. I read, I cried, I read some more. You will be ok in time and he is not “fine”. It’s like two gas cans sitting next to each other…. Yours is on fire and his is not. Why? Because his is empty. I know it hurts and it should hurt when someone you love betrays you just like you should feel angry. These are natural responses and honest feelings. Feel them as fully as you can so they can be released. You have people here who care and understand and will listen and offer suggestions that have helped them, if you want to try these things great, if you want to curl up in a ball and just cry that’s ok too. The most important thing anyone here can tell you is that this will get better but you can’t expect the time line to be the same as it would be after a normal break up. It is most definiately a process. Eventually things smooth out and it just starts to be different, more tolerable maybe?
        And this is very true…… You will have days that are better than others and days that are worse. I ran into the a**hat the other day and two years ago I probably would have slept with him in short order. Six months after that I would have been in tears for days and ended up calling or texting him, etc. Now? I found him repulsive but I was not wrecked or overly emotional, a few things registered, I felt them, told my best friend and therapist about the encounter and it has passed for the most part.
        None of this happens the same way or in the same timeline for everyone so as LisaO has said, be patient and to the best of your ability accept that this is a life experience that you are having. You didn’t ask for it but you are having it none the less. There are many many experiences in life that are not things we would ever WANT to go through but we do, right? 😉

  13. Puddle, I have the same feeling when I read what you write about your experiences. We were likely targeted by men who understand our particular wounds and used similar techniques to manipulate us along the lines of our strongest desires– to be deeply an unequivocally loved right to our cores, just for being who we are.

    You write for us all here, in a way that can’t be eclipsed. It shows deep understanding and healing is happening for you while you are helping others. I am so so relieved and happy for you and for everyone you speak for.

    1. LisaO, I do wonder if some issues are too deep or too severe to ever really be healed or fully recognized. That to me is when the understanding LOVE, real love, from another human being is seen. I have several friends who have shown me that kind of love, not that I’ve never been called out if I’ve gone off track, but they loved me enough to actually confront what went wrong, address it and then moved on leaving the friendship intact. The other side to that coin is a spathtard who manufactures a wrong, or over blows a real one, treats it like you shot his mother and then never EVER lets go of it and underhandedly seeks revenge. Having said that, who knows what really goes on in one of these entanglements on the disordered’s side because from the start the truth is hidden, the truth about who they are, what they’ve done and what they are about to do to you.
      Just curious, in regards to “our particular wounds”, have you ever read any of Arthur Janov’s writings? They are often in need of some editing but he has some interesting thoughts and theories about the beginning of life and how we are affected by it.

      Oh and here is the link…..J, I found it! You can read his newsletters here but also sign up to have them emailed to you.

      1. Thanks, Puddle.

        Really, psychologically reflective and critically inquiring mass consciousness would be extremely great to have, to say the least, again.

      2. ” I do wonder if some issues are too deep or too severe to ever really be healed or fully recognized”

        Hope not. That’s a few steps from saying we are free hamburgers walking.

        We have discussed meditations and they really improve awareness on mind and body. After all, emotions are stored in body, aren’t they?

        Yesterday I tried mantra meditation, in a bit different form. I took a word that personally didn’t spark any specific train of thought(if you can’t think up anything, Alpha and Buddhist Om Mani Padme Hum are pretty good). I kept repeating, not pushing any thoughts away, but not focusing on any single one, repeating the mantra even when I, for instance, yawned. I repeated it in my mind AND silently with my mouth and vocal cords as I breathed.

        The mantra changed, but not really the point there. I have cleared many blockages before. I felt like this mantra-session cleared me up well.

        A word of warning, repeating the mantra can feel intense.

      3. Puddle,

        I wonder if some damage, particularly due to rotten childhood experiences can ever be thoroughly healed, too. Probably partially and sometimes maybe thoroughly. It’s really hard to know. Thanks for link!!

        1. LisaO, I just think of the power of repression in two examples I have mentioned here before. One and adult male who was so traumatized in VN that to his dying day, 30 years after it happened, never remembered the event. He did not have any sort of brain injury that would cause memory loss, it was pure suppression and PTSD literally killed him. The war and the trauma changed him severely from the person he had been prior to going to battle in that mess. And then a friend who was molested as a child and had suppressed the event well into her 30’s when it all came flooding back after she was raped. There is no doubt in my mind what so ever that it affected her entire life prior to her recalling it but all on a subconscious level. Neither of these people would I label as having a lack of character but they sure did have a slew of problems.
          Anyhow, when I read Janov’s writings and plug his beliefs into my own set of circumstances, before and after birth,,,,,,,,wow. SO, my question is how in the world do you address issues that are pre birth and post birth yet pre verbal?? And then a host of contributing circumstances as the childhood continues? There is no doubt in my mind that Spathtard hooked me in a very VERY old wounded place and the pain I experienced during and after the time I was with him was extremely primal LisaO, indescribable and unlike anything i have ever felt before. I am positive that I was re-experiencing some sort of primal separation experience. But I’ve known about those things for a very long time and had worked with a couple councilors and body workers, etc, etc, etc…..all focused on healing those wounds. I can assure you they were still there when I met his highness and he didn’t need a map to find them, in fact he zeroed in on them the first night and hit the bullseye. I just had a flash of his face…..just typing those words and felt a feeling towards him that I don’t even have a word for,,,,,,literally any word that comes to mind falls short.
          So, I have a tremendous amount of compassion for anyone, borderlines for example, who have disorders but “came by them honestly” as a result of some kind of severe trauma as opposed to some POS self aggrandized, yet socially and humanly inept Spath who does what they do because they can.

          1. Puddle, so sad , the suppressed memories…and sometimes, if they are that horrible, I think it is unwise to try to bring them to the surface. The mind and soul are protecting themselves. I have memories of events but they are very foggy. After my parents abandoned me completely, when I was 19 and I very nearly ended up on the street, I more or less forgot my childhood. All memories dimmed. WhenI saw my parents for the first time, a couple of years later, I wasn’t angry, at the time, but I felt I was meeting strangers for the first time. The agony and anxiety I was hospitalized for, was caused, in part by this sudden complete rupture of familial bonds. I guess in old fashioned terms it would be called a nervous breakdown. I suppressed anger but dimly remember. I have had years of therapy with a life coach who has helped me through this. She helped me to understand that I am not disposable, that I have value, that I matter. She saved my life after the attack by the P, who almost by design, recreates this scenario.

            I think what you went through very early in your life, that you can’t remember, I went through later–so can remember. I am lucky that I can identify events that messed me up and that it wasn’t any worse or I would have ended up with borderline personality disorder, in a big way.

            Btw, Puddle, check your email spam filter. I changed email address as for some reason my email isn’t getting through. I can send but can’t receive. Weird! Let me know if you have new address! Thanks!

  14. Hi J,

    I’m so happy that you are finding relief, release and happiness through meditation. For some weird reason, I have not been able to meditate for about 20 years. Prior to that it was a snap and I found it great as a way of calming myself down. I don’t know what happened exactly.

    1. Thanks, LisaO, though in my case it’s just a matter of not accidentally suppressing emotions, like people in general can do. Emotional skills aren’t really a given even if someone’s grown up in a relatively “normal” family.

      That and clearing some small blockages. Haven’t transcended, though. 😀 Or experienced enlightenment, which I think must be getting to the emotionally powerful truth about life purpose, what to do with one’s life.

  15. Puddle, LisaO and anyone else:

    Please try the kind of meditation I’ve mentioned above. Can do wonders. 😀

  16. J, I think that anybody honestly and openly seeking answers to why’s of life, in general and their own, specifically, will find them. As far as repressing emotion, purely by accident–I think this maybe a bit more of a masculine tendency but don’t know. Kind of a touchy area, to be gender specific about that. You’re to be applauded for trying to get in touch with that part of yourself. It isn’t easy. I was so repressed, in some areas, I was going through my life a bit like a robot. I had cultivated coping skills that allowed me to have interpersonal relationships, while reducing risk of abandonment. I can’t say I was super happy, but I was secure and felt ‘loved’ sort of, in a way? Hard to explain…but I had things structured in just such a way…and I kind of knew what I was doing. I had stability and support from my husband and as much ‘love’ as he could give me, with all the problems he had. The P encouraged me to ‘take a chance’ throw off shackles of repression, drop my defences and feel the kind of love I haven’t experienced since I was a little girl, before I was essentially abandoned emotionally by my mother (after being the centre of her universe and the apple of her eye). She let my father beat and terrorize me and although I understand the dynamics of the time and how hard it was for her to do anything about it, I couldn’t reason myself into emotional health, at the time. I became a functional, was very strong, but very deeply damaged. The betrayal trauma was intense, but not felt at the time. I just went numb, for the most part.

    Last night I was reflecting on this, lying in bed, and asking my guardian angels, guides for help. I was focussing on hypervigilance and the tendency, though mild, to be a little too judgemental and condemning of certain people, who are nasty because they are damaged in some way. Anyway, the upshot of this back and forth was to remain calm and try to be as understanding and patient as possible. Mainly, to remain calm, (not repressed) and feel compassion rather than annoyance, because the complexity of the human mind requires that. After a targeted attack by a P, it is particularly easy , not only to fall back into past patterns but to have those patterns of feeling/thinking exaggerated.

    Anyway, way too much information! I know! But the upshot of this, as far as seeking answers—This morning I got up and used a new coffee cup, with a pic of a zebra laminated on it. It had an expression on it, that I hadn’t read yet. While I was drinking my coffee, I looked at the expression and it said, “Nothing is Ever Black and White”. For me, that is a big thumbs up from my angels. I am on the right track.

    1. These abstract, spiritual experiences are also fascinating, experiences of God, higher self, enlightenment, guardian angels.

      1. Hi again J,

        Boy that was one wordy post you got in response, from me! I should join ‘On and on anon!’
        Thank you for valuing the spiritual experiences of others. If we are good people with positive intent, that can be fine tuned and polished by the best teachings of the great religions, or through philosophical exploration, or any number of delightful ways. Not sure if I made my point clearly before but just wanted to add that psychopaths can work within any belief system. They can magnify the worst within that system (and they all contain flaws). They can turn us on each other, easily, in divide and conquer scenarios. They can have us engaging in holy wars, battling for hearts and minds in perverted renditions of the old Crusades.

        Awakening to the idea that there are people who live outside of our own value system, but have managed to infiltrate it, is scary and that fear, too, can run away with itself. There is an online cult that has formed in the last twenty years based partly on the belief that up to 40% of the population are soulless and ripe for take over by demonic beings from another dimension. Oh, and you wouldn’t believe how intellectually and emotionally agile these people are. They are very convincing, perhaps because they are convinced themselves. Who knows?

        When awakening occurs on an individual level, filtered through unique personalities, without a collective mob , “let’s DO something about it!” mentality, or religious fanaticism, it is probably safest for one and all.

      2. Truly.

        I once heard from a recording about active imagination that someone, who has an evil consciousness is bound to use it for evil purposes just like they would use anything else for evil purposes if they have an evil consciousness.

        We really need to learn to imagine instinctively, unflinchingly along the lines of “How would a person with an evil consciousness see this?” .

      3. We would need to awaken to many, many insidious influences. We would need to awaken to accept the fact that there indeed are people wit evil consciousness, who continually plan ways to screw others over.

        I’ve read arguments how there’s no good and evil. Well, there are still mentalities. Some mentalities are highly geared towards taking advantage of others disregarding their wellbeing, just for their own gratification. There ARE predatory mentalities, highly vicious and conniving mentalities that plan ahead of time several ways how to screw others over.

  17. Hi Marge — can’t find your last post right now, so hope I can answer your comments.

    For further reading, visit, read some of her columns which have been published in Oprah magazine. Go to, scroll down to the bottom of the page, right hand corner, click through to Navarro’s short weekly articles published in Psychology Today. These are only a few of the many resources to be found on the web. Please note that you should avoid articles written by Sam Vaknin. He is not to be trusted.

    No, never considered being a mental health therapist, though it is flattering for you to say so. First of all, back in the dark ages when I was in college, the very patriarchal denomination in which I was raised considered proper careers for females to be teachers, secretaries, nurses, dental hygienists, etc. And although I played piano at nearly a concert level, I knew that traveling and giving concerts was not what I wanted to do, nor did I have the personality and patience to be a music teacher. In addition, I am probably borderline Asperger’s syndrome — the thought of being shut in a small room and listening all day to a succession of mentally disordered or ill folk just would not work for me. Not to mention all the Paperwork involved! I have an innate need to be creative, sewing, designing, and making my own jewelry fill that need. I am perfectly happy spending most of my time by myself, dealing the customers who come in during my day. But because I am intensely curious about so many things, I web-surf every day, printing the occasional article that one of my friends or customers will be interested in. Hope this will be of interest to you, please ask if you want more — the reference librarian in me will do my best to help out!! Peace and hope from Elva.

  18. Excellent comments, Elva, Thanks, I will buy the suggested books. I have read Malachi Martins above work and other of his books. All of this gets rather deep and I believe Malachi hits the nail on the head for many of CD phenomena we are experiencing in our society today. This seems to answerer some of the unanswered questions that none of the other authors on the subject could adequately account for. However, this should not be used in a casual sense, but addressed very seriously. Do you have any other suggested reading from the outside the mainstream material.
    Thank you

    1. Hi BTOV — glad you found my comments interesting. Yes, I do have some other reading recommendations, but don’t have the time right this minute to list them, will try to get back to you this p.m. or tomorrow. Am currently researching a noted psychiatrist, VERY interesting, still trying to put the pieces into a coherent whole, not quite ready to post it yet. Peace and hope from Elva

      1. Hi BTOV — a short, but really good book is “Why great men fall” by Wayde Goodall. Biblical perspective, tells why famous men have fallen by the wayside, because they failed to follow Biblical principles. Any books by Victoria Secunda (she wrote several). “For this day” — short daily devotional readings excerpted from the works of J.B.Phillips. I will have others, but it’s late now, Peace and hope from Elva

    2. Hi again BTOV — I agree with you about Malachi’s idea that at least some CDs have possibly been infested. I used to see a man at one church I attended who had a very odd way of interacting with others — one man I heard of refused to even shake hands with the first man because he considered him to be “creepy.” In this culture, refusing to shake hands is pretty serious rejection.

      If you could give me a bit more info on your interests, that would help me to narrow down what reading I might suggest for you. I do have a tendency to “firehose” people with more information than they might want or need.:) Peace and hope from Elva

  19. Hi Elva, I have not given much information on my particular CD who fits more of the extreme case. At this time I am not able to comment. Try me, I ceased to watch TV 5 years. I think we may have read many of the same. I have some interesting comments when I have a few minutes.

    1. Hi BTOV — OK, just some general comments on where and what I read. My TV died about 6 years ago, decided not to fix it, because there is so little worth watching, and not going to pay for cable, either. And with DSL, the whole world is at my fingertips!!

      First, when I was 9 or so, read through multi volume Compton’s Encyclopedia, and World Book Encyclopedia, not every single entry, but about 60% of them, so had a good framework in place, to fit other information into — also, I read very fast, prox. 1000 wpm, and I have a good memory (WWII? I remember it, bits of it, because I was there). I had a NPD parent, also had a bad marriage, so know what others may be enduring.

      These days, I surf the web daily. I visit,, (which today has an article on how listening to classical music may actually help to keep you from aging so fast),, my local newspaper’s site,,,, (this last site has an article up today about bad parenting — turns out that parents always telling their “speshul sneauxflaque” almost daily how wonderful the child is, is the way to create a narcissist. Well, having grown up under one, yes, I think that’s right. Some of these sites are news aggregators, giving you a bit of news with links to further info on that particular subject. At, check out the main column, + the right side column. Click on whatever might interest you.

      Also, I occasionally google for info on color psychology (Red is a power color), business wear, 3rd hand smoke (that’s for when I turn down a job, because the item belongs to a smoker and absolutely reeks of tobacco smoke), emotionally needy people, socially inept people, Simon Baron-Cohen’s books and online interactive quiz for systemizing, empathizing, autism, asperger’s, etc. He also wrote a book titled “Men and women: the essential difference” which I found very helpful. I get catalogs (free)from — they sell overstock or remaindered books, sometimes very cheaply. I recently got biographies of Winston Churchill, Red Cloud, and several other books. As a former church organist, I’ve done research on the fad for “contemporary Christian Worship Music” (which is not Christian nor worship, but is based on Hollywood entertainment music, NOT noted for promoting spiritual values)– had the misfortune to be organist under a narcissistic music minister — (google for Bruce Leafblad, among others. Are you feeling “firehosed” yet? I liked Malcolm Gladwell’s book “Blink” — I sometimes get flashes of enlightenment as he describes them in the book. (for example, one day was in a Bible study class, the Israelite tabernacle in the wilderness, with curtains of white linen, etc., I realized that during the exile in the wilderness, there must have been itinerant traders because, given the harsh climate of the Arabian peninsula, there was NO way they could have grown the flax there to make the linen, also the precious stones for the High Priest’s breast plate — for example the “sapphire” was probably lapis lazuli from Afghanistan, which is where most lapis is still mined today.)

      It’s very important to eat for you properly and to take vitamin and herbal supplements, so that you can deal with stress. Unless you grow your own veggies, what you get in the market has probably come from agribusiness and will therefore be lacking in essential nutrients. Gov. recommended daily allowances (U.S.) are pitifully small, only enough to keep you out of the ER. In my opinion, probably 80 to 90% of physical illness in the U.S. is due to sub-clinical malnutrition. See Phyllis Balch’s Prescription for Nutritional Healing, now in 5th ed.

      At, I sometimes print a particularly good (for me) page. The author there studied for the ministry, but has ended up having his own website, where he reaches unknown numbers of people worldwide with his messages. One in particular is one of my favorites — he posted it on Friday, April 16, 1999 — titled “Victim or Victor?” Another one I like is “Desire to give” posted Wednesday April 10, 2013.

      I’m guessing you are stuck in a possibly bad situation with a CD and so you cannot say more about it. Keep asking here, reading, studying, I’ll contribute what I can.

      I’m sure I’ll think of more, but have to get going on today’s chores. Peace and hope from Elva

  20. Hi BTOV — I just answered your post with a long reply, and it seems to have vanished into the ether. Don’t have time right now to redo it, but will try again tonight or tomorrow, sorry for the glitch, Peace and hope from Elva

    1. Hi Elva, Thanks for all the hard work, I’ve lost a few hard worded comments and lost them too and then just said forget it. The current book I am reading was written for FBI use. Detecting Lies and Deceit. Understanding body language, queues and tells. WOW. I’ll look forward to your post. In my journey so to speak I have been in and out of my CD head. A scary barren place of chaos and disorder, very confusing and conflicting, I’m not sure on how much I should say. I do not stay there very long and it has kept me safe. Blessings

      1. Elva, would you want to contact me via e-mail to discuss further reading material? I have posted with Dr. Simon if that is agreeable with you. Knowledge is Power and so is the Holy Spirit. He has kept me safe. Blessings

        1. Hi BTOV — yes, that might work better. I think the earlier message I posted here to you may have been too long, so didn’t pass some test. I will contact Dr. Simon directly to give my OK. Glad you are finding something of value in what I have posted to you!! Eph. 1:4 — Peace and hope from Elva

      2. Hi BTOV, Another book that was highly recommended to me (speaking of the FBI) was Dangerous Instincts by Mary Ellen O’Tool who is a former FBI profiler. I find that things that pigeon hole people, or try to, based on things like body language can be deceiving. For example, eye contact or the lack there of is supposed to be a sign of several bad things but I personally know that to be unreliable. Spathtard could hold eye contact perfectly well and apparently look you in the eye while lying through his teeth. I on the other hand had a terrible time with eye contact when I was younger because I was painfully shy. I remember teaching myself to hold eye contact in my 20’s. Anyhow……I remember clearly telling Spathtardx that he had the “kindest eyes”. Boy was I off base there but his eyes could change in a way I have never experienced with another person………that just gave my chills typing that. Whawa!

        1. Same with my brother!! he can lye to my face and even after knowing Sociobro for his entire life, knowing that if his lips are moving he is lying, I still feel myself getting drawn in!! It’s incredible and the only way I don’t get drawn in or not drawn in as far is that I KNOW he is lying but it is soon weird to see how powerfully persuasive they can be.

          1. Yes, I prefer a face to face, but they are so good at lying they can pass lie detector tests. When they first lie, they know it, I believe they get a high off of the lie, especially when they know you believed them. After awhile they “believe their own lies” hence it is now true fact. I have always found there is a “tell” but you need to be very observant.

            And yes, there is something about there eyes, I have heard the saying the eyes are the pathways to the soul. I have seen at times in people just a glimpse and then a turn in my stomach a moment of confusion and then all is right. I didn’t know it then but I believe I was in the presence of a demon. Something very evil, in looking back these people whom I was to naïve at the time to discern their sick minds have proved with years to be highly CD and dangerous. Be very careful they are evil and one up man ship is always the goal. Blessings Puddle

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *